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Made in us
Neophyte undergoing Ritual of Detestation




notredameguy10 wrote:
Ceaser wrote:
This formation seems fun.. Competitively? Eh. Not the best, or even near it. We will see what the future holds for it. I never have heard of any unit period being able to 'pop tart' in and out on the same turn.. So if this skimmer could enter reserves and leave reserves at the same time, that's weird, as reserves are rolled at the beginning of the players turn and the. Movement is done after reserves have been brought it.. So turn 1 unload and leave.. Turn 2 come back on.. But since you entered, you can't exit.. Turn 3 leave again.. Turn 4 enter.. This is all if you don't roll a 1 or 2 on the reserve roll..


Sorry wrong. They enter automatically from ongoing reserves, drop off drones, and re-enter ongoing reserves at the end of the movement phase. Rinse and repeat


How are you moving (coming in from ongoing reserves) which is the movement you are choosing to do with the vehicle. Stopping, choosing to END the movement for that vehicle. Doing an action (dropping off drones) and then choosing to move again (back into reserves) because if this is a loop hole, I sure hope itc gets its hands on it soon
   
Made in us
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Ceaser wrote:
notredameguy10 wrote:
Ceaser wrote:
This formation seems fun.. Competitively? Eh. Not the best, or even near it. We will see what the future holds for it. I never have heard of any unit period being able to 'pop tart' in and out on the same turn.. So if this skimmer could enter reserves and leave reserves at the same time, that's weird, as reserves are rolled at the beginning of the players turn and the. Movement is done after reserves have been brought it.. So turn 1 unload and leave.. Turn 2 come back on.. But since you entered, you can't exit.. Turn 3 leave again.. Turn 4 enter.. This is all if you don't roll a 1 or 2 on the reserve roll..


Sorry wrong. They enter automatically from ongoing reserves, drop off drones, and re-enter ongoing reserves at the end of the movement phase. Rinse and repeat


How are you moving (coming in from ongoing reserves) which is the movement you are choosing to do with the vehicle. Stopping, choosing to END the movement for that vehicle. Doing an action (dropping off drones) and then choosing to move again (back into reserves) because if this is a loop hole, I sure hope itc gets its hands on it soon

The ITC has actually brought this up in a video recently, the main issue with the wording is that it doesn't say they move off into reserves, but rather they're just removed and go into the reserves. The movement range of the Piranha is also greater than the required drop off rate, which is strange.

Personally I think if they just FAQ it to be every other turn, it'll be a very solid formation that isn't broken. It would also mean it can focus on Seekers more than just pumping out drones. Oh, and I should mention I don't think it should rebuild lost Piranhas, only wounds on those that survived and their drones/seekers. It's not like Seekers need line of sight for firing with Markerlights, so it shouldn't be that hard to hide your Piranhas tactically.

I'll pluck you like a flower.

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 Tinkrr wrote:
Ceaser wrote:
notredameguy10 wrote:
Ceaser wrote:
This formation seems fun.. Competitively? Eh. Not the best, or even near it. We will see what the future holds for it. I never have heard of any unit period being able to 'pop tart' in and out on the same turn.. So if this skimmer could enter reserves and leave reserves at the same time, that's weird, as reserves are rolled at the beginning of the players turn and the. Movement is done after reserves have been brought it.. So turn 1 unload and leave.. Turn 2 come back on.. But since you entered, you can't exit.. Turn 3 leave again.. Turn 4 enter.. This is all if you don't roll a 1 or 2 on the reserve roll..


Sorry wrong. They enter automatically from ongoing reserves, drop off drones, and re-enter ongoing reserves at the end of the movement phase. Rinse and repeat


How are you moving (coming in from ongoing reserves) which is the movement you are choosing to do with the vehicle. Stopping, choosing to END the movement for that vehicle. Doing an action (dropping off drones) and then choosing to move again (back into reserves) because if this is a loop hole, I sure hope itc gets its hands on it soon

The ITC has actually brought this up in a video recently, the main issue with the wording is that it doesn't say they move off into reserves, but rather they're just removed and go into the reserves. The movement range of the Piranha is also greater than the required drop off rate, which is strange.

Personally I think if they just FAQ it to be every other turn, it'll be a very solid formation that isn't broken. It would also mean it can focus on Seekers more than just pumping out drones. Oh, and I should mention I don't think it should rebuild lost Piranhas, only wounds on those that survived and their drones/seekers. It's not like Seekers need line of sight for firing with Markerlights, so it shouldn't be that hard to hide your Piranhas tactically.


See I can agree with that. It allows the formation to still be very solid, while not being broken like invisibility.
   
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Ceaser wrote:
notredameguy10 wrote:
Ceaser wrote:
This formation seems fun.. Competitively? Eh. Not the best, or even near it. We will see what the future holds for it. I never have heard of any unit period being able to 'pop tart' in and out on the same turn.. So if this skimmer could enter reserves and leave reserves at the same time, that's weird, as reserves are rolled at the beginning of the players turn and the. Movement is done after reserves have been brought it.. So turn 1 unload and leave.. Turn 2 come back on.. But since you entered, you can't exit.. Turn 3 leave again.. Turn 4 enter.. This is all if you don't roll a 1 or 2 on the reserve roll..


Sorry wrong. They enter automatically from ongoing reserves, drop off drones, and re-enter ongoing reserves at the end of the movement phase. Rinse and repeat


How are you moving (coming in from ongoing reserves) which is the movement you are choosing to do with the vehicle. Stopping, choosing to END the movement for that vehicle. Doing an action (dropping off drones) and then choosing to move again (back into reserves) because if this is a loop hole, I sure hope itc gets its hands on it soon


The vehicle can end its movement from coming onto the board within 6" of the board. Attached drones are counted as being embarked passengers, and can thus be dropped off at the end of the movement. Finally, the Firestream has a special rule that if at the end of the movement phase, the unit is within 6" of any board edge, it can be immediately removed (not moved) to ongoing reserves for repair and resupply.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/07 04:02:41


 
   
Made in us
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 Nilok wrote:
Ceaser wrote:
notredameguy10 wrote:
Ceaser wrote:
This formation seems fun.. Competitively? Eh. Not the best, or even near it. We will see what the future holds for it. I never have heard of any unit period being able to 'pop tart' in and out on the same turn.. So if this skimmer could enter reserves and leave reserves at the same time, that's weird, as reserves are rolled at the beginning of the players turn and the. Movement is done after reserves have been brought it.. So turn 1 unload and leave.. Turn 2 come back on.. But since you entered, you can't exit.. Turn 3 leave again.. Turn 4 enter.. This is all if you don't roll a 1 or 2 on the reserve roll..


Sorry wrong. They enter automatically from ongoing reserves, drop off drones, and re-enter ongoing reserves at the end of the movement phase. Rinse and repeat


How are you moving (coming in from ongoing reserves) which is the movement you are choosing to do with the vehicle. Stopping, choosing to END the movement for that vehicle. Doing an action (dropping off drones) and then choosing to move again (back into reserves) because if this is a loop hole, I sure hope itc gets its hands on it soon


The vehicle can end its movement from coming onto the board within 6" of it. Attached drones are counted as being embarked passengers, and can thus be dropped off at the end of the movement. Finally, the Firestream has a special rule that if at the end of the movement phase, the unit is withing 6" of any board edge, it can be immediately removed (not moved) to ongoing reserves for repair and resupply.


Thank you, that makes more sense. I thought that people were attempting two movements in one phase. As stated above, an itc faq of every other turn would be a great addition. Would definitely help bring this into a proper power
   
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Ceaser wrote:
 Tinkrr wrote:
Ceaser wrote:
notredameguy10 wrote:
Ceaser wrote:
This formation seems fun.. Competitively? Eh. Not the best, or even near it. We will see what the future holds for it. I never have heard of any unit period being able to 'pop tart' in and out on the same turn.. So if this skimmer could enter reserves and leave reserves at the same time, that's weird, as reserves are rolled at the beginning of the players turn and the. Movement is done after reserves have been brought it.. So turn 1 unload and leave.. Turn 2 come back on.. But since you entered, you can't exit.. Turn 3 leave again.. Turn 4 enter.. This is all if you don't roll a 1 or 2 on the reserve roll..


Sorry wrong. They enter automatically from ongoing reserves, drop off drones, and re-enter ongoing reserves at the end of the movement phase. Rinse and repeat


How are you moving (coming in from ongoing reserves) which is the movement you are choosing to do with the vehicle. Stopping, choosing to END the movement for that vehicle. Doing an action (dropping off drones) and then choosing to move again (back into reserves) because if this is a loop hole, I sure hope itc gets its hands on it soon

The ITC has actually brought this up in a video recently, the main issue with the wording is that it doesn't say they move off into reserves, but rather they're just removed and go into the reserves. The movement range of the Piranha is also greater than the required drop off rate, which is strange.

Personally I think if they just FAQ it to be every other turn, it'll be a very solid formation that isn't broken. It would also mean it can focus on Seekers more than just pumping out drones. Oh, and I should mention I don't think it should rebuild lost Piranhas, only wounds on those that survived and their drones/seekers. It's not like Seekers need line of sight for firing with Markerlights, so it shouldn't be that hard to hide your Piranhas tactically.


See I can agree with that. It allows the formation to still be very solid, while not being broken like invisibility.

Exactly, I'm with you on that, when I first heard about it, it sounded insane. If you go a page or two back in this thread I actually did the math and the free points from the drones is absurd when looking at a four turn game, yet less any game that goes beyond that.

I know I'll still field the formation even if it's every other turn, as it's basically a group of better Skyrays when combined with a Drone Network.

I'll pluck you like a flower.

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Spoiler:
Ceaser wrote:
 Tinkrr wrote:
Ceaser wrote:
notredameguy10 wrote:
Ceaser wrote:
This formation seems fun.. Competitively? Eh. Not the best, or even near it. We will see what the future holds for it. I never have heard of any unit period being able to 'pop tart' in and out on the same turn.. So if this skimmer could enter reserves and leave reserves at the same time, that's weird, as reserves are rolled at the beginning of the players turn and the. Movement is done after reserves have been brought it.. So turn 1 unload and leave.. Turn 2 come back on.. But since you entered, you can't exit.. Turn 3 leave again.. Turn 4 enter.. This is all if you don't roll a 1 or 2 on the reserve roll..


Sorry wrong. They enter automatically from ongoing reserves, drop off drones, and re-enter ongoing reserves at the end of the movement phase. Rinse and repeat


How are you moving (coming in from ongoing reserves) which is the movement you are choosing to do with the vehicle. Stopping, choosing to END the movement for that vehicle. Doing an action (dropping off drones) and then choosing to move again (back into reserves) because if this is a loop hole, I sure hope itc gets its hands on it soon

The ITC has actually brought this up in a video recently, the main issue with the wording is that it doesn't say they move off into reserves, but rather they're just removed and go into the reserves. The movement range of the Piranha is also greater than the required drop off rate, which is strange.

Personally I think if they just FAQ it to be every other turn, it'll be a very solid formation that isn't broken. It would also mean it can focus on Seekers more than just pumping out drones. Oh, and I should mention I don't think it should rebuild lost Piranhas, only wounds on those that survived and their drones/seekers. It's not like Seekers need line of sight for firing with Markerlights, so it shouldn't be that hard to hide your Piranhas tactically.


See I can agree with that. It allows the formation to still be very solid, while not being broken like invisibility.


Judging by the feedback from some very vocal tau players on the coordinated fire issue, I can only imagine the rage if this were nerfed shortly after. Would be entertaining to watch all the "fury of 1000 suns" posts.

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Made in fi
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Oh yes, I can see it now:

"How do you wish to play this formation? Do you want to play it as written or do you want to make it completely useless by not allowing the unit go to reserves on the turn it comes to play, requiring normal reserves roll and to top it off not allow it to come back at full strength?"

ITC, you can use this directly.
   
Made in us
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Naw wrote:
Oh yes, I can see it now:

"How do you wish to play this formation? Do you want to play it as written or do you want to make it completely useless by not allowing the unit go to reserves on the turn it comes to play, requiring normal reserves roll and to top it off not allow it to come back at full strength?"

ITC, you can use this directly.

That is a bit of a straw man argument as having the unit go into normal reserves is not what was being discussed, or even suggested. The only thing being touched on is if the formation should be allowed to leave the board the same turn it arrives since the other units that could leave the board are prevented from doing so.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Its more that the CF question was incredibly poorly written, IF the intent was to not bias the respondents towards a particular result.

ITC should not vote on this until, unlike CF, some tournaments actually occur to see fi this is an issue. Knee jerk reactions, like CF, dont help the game. (Where was the knee jerk +100 points to a WK, for example?)
   
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It was not a straw man, it was made to help ITC formulate a question to put those whiny Tau players to their proper place!

I would not play it so I'd come and go during the same turn. I don't think it was the intent but it would also not allow me to fire the seeker missiles. That said, I also do not plan to get any Piranhas.
   
Made in us
Shrieking Traitor Sentinel Pilot





More like "fury of a thousand cheetos stained neckbeards".

Except less than a thousand. Like 20.

CFP was poorly written, and absurdly broken. The ITC call makes for better balanced, and actually competitive, games.

The drone factory isn't that broken. If you are using it, you are also consigning 200ish points of Piranhas to not attack. And you get... a lot of drones. Useful, especially for contesting/fighting/bubblewrapping in your back field. Turn 1 and 2 drones would be good for doing things in your enemies side of the table.

But none of them score, and you can't use missiles or guns on the Piranhas if you want to drone it up.

Additionally, a smart opponent will interceptor the drones when they arrive. Killing 10 drones is a lot easier than killing 5 jinking Piranha. If they succeed, then you've just wasted an entire turn of Piranhas.

The drone factory isn't comparable to CFP. It isn't even as broken as Send In The Next Wave was before the IG forgot their name. It's a powerful tool, yes, but not nearly as stupid broken as, say, 3x double tapping Riptides at BS5, or Darkstrider firing a gunrig and instagibbing EVERYTHING T6 and below, or you know, most of the Eldar book. You have to know how to use it, you can't just set it on the table and win. I don't think it will be called for a nerf.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
nosferatu1001 wrote:

ITC should not vote on this until, unlike CF, some tournaments actually occur to see fi this is an issue. Knee jerk reactions, like CF, dont help the game. (Where was the knee jerk +100 points to a WK, for example?)


Also, THIS. Playtime will show that no, it isn't that bad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/07 10:30:25


 
   
Made in us
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You guys do know the LVO is only a couple months away, right? The hasty vote and ruling was to give people the ability to build and play test for the LVO correctly, so that they didn't have to re-do their whole game plan the night before if the vote was delayed as some suggest.

I'll pluck you like a flower.

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So the whole point of the vote was to alter the rules for an army before anyone has even playtested properly - 2 bad bat reps dont count - or had any actual tournament results?

Rushing the vote now was for one reason only, and putting up such an objectively bad question that leads the respondents in one direction naturally also suggests there was only one reason behind the poll.

You dont knee jerk BEFORE you have ANY objective evidence. Thats *very* poor practice. Especially when the actual *known* "real" values for Eldar (what the studio wanted to change the points costs to, but were overruled) units were not errataed in.
   
Made in us
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So here is a more on point question.

If you have a squadron of 5 piranha, and they disembark there drones... are those drones 5 squads of 2, or is it one big squad of 10 drones ???

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1 of 10
   
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Good, way easier to keep track of and explain to your opponent what they are targeting!

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 Grizzyzz wrote:
So here is a more on point question.

If you have a squadron of 5 piranha, and they disembark there drones... are those drones 5 squads of 2, or is it one big squad of 10 drones ???


Pg 119 of Tau codex says:

All Drones from a vehicle or vehicle squadron must detach at the same time - they then form a single new unit.

So to answer your question, if 5 piranhas detach their drones, they form a unit of 10. A single piranha detaching drones would become a unit of 2.
   
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5 single Piranha would be five units of 2.
   
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 Grizzyzz wrote:


Drones can't score objectives I thought though? Just want this clarification?


Units of drones are non scoring yes, but you can push people off objectives and create walls like no tomorrow.

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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/08 03:28:26


 
   
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Do these units of drones count for kill points?

Still waiting for Godot. 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




 the Signless wrote:
Do these units of drones count for kill points?

no
   
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kambien wrote:
 the Signless wrote:
Do these units of drones count for kill points?

no

Why don't they count as kill points? If they aren't kill points, they aren't a unit. If they aren't a unit, they don't exist. Per the rules.
   
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Ceaser wrote:
kambien wrote:
 the Signless wrote:
Do these units of drones count for kill points?

no

Why don't they count as kill points? If they aren't kill points, they aren't a unit. If they aren't a unit, they don't exist. Per the rules.

Because they don't.

Codex: Tau Empire 7e wrote:Drones that started the game attached to a vehicle do not award Victory Points when destroyed.
   
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 Nilok wrote:
Ceaser wrote:
kambien wrote:
 the Signless wrote:
Do these units of drones count for kill points?

no

Why don't they count as kill points? If they aren't kill points, they aren't a unit. If they aren't a unit, they don't exist. Per the rules.

Because they don't.

Codex: Tau Empire 7e wrote:Drones that started the game attached to a vehicle do not award Victory Points when destroyed.


Hmm this is definitely another to do for the itc. Number 1: make it to where the vehicles can only enter every other turn. Number 2: make drones worth kill points.
   
Made in us
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Ceaser wrote:
 Nilok wrote:
Ceaser wrote:
kambien wrote:
 the Signless wrote:
Do these units of drones count for kill points?

no

Why don't they count as kill points? If they aren't kill points, they aren't a unit. If they aren't a unit, they don't exist. Per the rules.

Because they don't.

Codex: Tau Empire 7e wrote:Drones that started the game attached to a vehicle do not award Victory Points when destroyed.


Hmm this is definitely another to do for the itc. Number 1: make it to where the vehicles can only enter every other turn. Number 2: make drones worth kill points.

I doubt the ITC would change the drone rule as it has deep consequences every Tau vehicle, not just the Firestream, effectively nerfing their intended uses as a disposable body blocker for their Vehicles. If the Firestream drone factory somehow becomes as prevalent as Invisibility, then there may be a case.

At the moment, the guys at Frontline Gaming/ITC think the Firestream is powerful, but the only thing they feel they need to FAQ is if Piranha models come back as well.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/12/08 06:04:31


 
   
Made in fi
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There was a thread on that in YMDC. No one could provide support that "unit at full strength" did not mean that the number of piranhas was also included. So again it would not be a FAQ or a rule clarification but a complete rule change.

If they again put that under a popularity vote we know what will happen :(
   
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Naw wrote:
There was a thread on that in YMDC. No one could provide support that "unit at full strength" did not mean that the number of piranhas was also included. So again it would not be a FAQ or a rule clarification but a complete rule change.

If they again put that under a popularity vote we know what will happen :(


Can you quote the rule that specifies it's full strength, to include already destroyed vehicles? Specification please, not just the rule that states the units come back at full strength, which rai is obvious they mean what is leaving the table, not things that have been destroyed. When you provide that rule, it will show if the itc does a rules clarification, cause that's what it is, that it'd be a change. But it isn't, I agree the other thing was, this wouldn't be. Don't flatter the tau to much, we are all lucky to have people like Reece who know how to nerf them competitively since gw messed up their wording and the players feel a need to shove their interpretations as fact down our throats
   
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Ceaser wrote:
Naw wrote:
There was a thread on that in YMDC. No one could provide support that "unit at full strength" did not mean that the number of piranhas was also included. So again it would not be a FAQ or a rule clarification but a complete rule change.

If they again put that under a popularity vote we know what will happen :(


Can you quote the rule that specifies it's full strength, to include already destroyed vehicles? Specification please, not just the rule that states the units come back at full strength, which rai is obvious they mean what is leaving the table, not things that have been destroyed. When you provide that rule, it will show if the itc does a rules clarification, cause that's what it is, that it'd be a change. But it isn't, I agree the other thing was, this wouldn't be. Don't flatter the tau to much, we are all lucky to have people like Reece who know how to nerf them competitively since gw messed up their wording and the players feel a need to shove their interpretations as fact down our throats

In an IG/AM formation (not an IG player, so I don't have the book in front of me) with the exact same wording, it specifically states in parenthesis that the vehicles in the unit that were lost come back as well. The rational is that identical wording has an identical effect on the rules. This will most likely have influence on the ITC group voting on it.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/12/08 06:48:49


 
   
 
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