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I think it math's out to about 12 Marker Drones to kill a Land Raider each turn, if you only use Seeker Missiles.

SJ

This Formation can't generate Marker Drones. Only Gun Drones.

 Kriswall wrote:
This Formation can't generate Marker Drones. Only Gun Drones.

This formation require the Networked Drone formation to work. Also, I was pointing out how asinine it is to assume pulse carbine drones are your only drones in an army.

SJ

I wouldn't say it requires the Drone Network, but there's no real reason not to take the Drone Network because of how good it is by itself, and how much it can benefit your drone goodies.

Really, I don't think you even have to think about Seekers, since you'll still have Riptides, Crisis Suits, and more in your list to pick off any large armour targets.

I'm thinking a Retaliation Cadre, a Drone-net, and a Piranah Wing would be fluff fun, actually. Start the network and skimmers on the table, drop drone, marker everything up, and recycle skimmers. Next then drop the Cadre, cycke in more drones, etc. A full on rapid insertion force. Do the drone factory thing for three turns or so, then start dropping seekers and pie plates everywhere.

SJ

Pretty much, the FSE with Retaliation, Piranha Wing, and Drone Network will probably be too powerful if left unchanged.

Though I think I'll ultimately not do the 32 drones a turn, since that's a little much, I'll probably just do something like 5 Piranhas in squad one for drones, then two units of 2-3 Piranha that drop drones but also carry seekers since you can't fire seekers and refresh, that way turn one the Drone Network has more utility.

I think I could even sneak in an OSC if I really play around with the points enough, but it'll be pretty tight.

Can't leave the table and or enter it on the same turn.

So this is much much worse than demon summoning, and they are still just gun drones.

Not to mention the possibility of Fusion Blasters if you play against a lot of Templars or Deathwing.

blaktoof wrote:
Can't leave the table and or enter it on the same turn.

Um, why not?

 Tinkrr wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Can't leave the table and or enter it on the same turn.

Um, why not?

Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures and Flying Gargantuan Creatures all have rules exclusive to their Unit Type that disallows them from leaving the table on the same turn that it entered from Reserve. As skimmers, I'm not entirely sure that the Piranha would have the same restriction.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Can't leave the table and or enter it on the same turn.

Um, why not?

Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures and Flying Gargantuan Creatures all have rules exclusive to their Unit Type that disallows them from leaving the table on the same turn that it entered from Reserve. As skimmers, I'm not entirely sure that the Piranha would have the same restriction.

That would actually be a really reasonable way to balance this formation, since every other turn does give it more Seeker use while also reducing just how much free stuff it produces. I'm going to wait for the ITC to make a ruling on this issue, and I hope this is the route they take honestly, though as far as RAW goes, if it doesn't specifically mention Skimmers unlike fliers, it means they can do it each turn, which just isn't fair, and this is coming from someone who loves the Piranha model.

Flyers were typically the only units that could leave the table, voluntarily or not. Rules were created to prevent on-again, off-again flyers.

If Piranhas get rules that allow them to voluntarily enter ongoing reserves, they would need a rule that prevents them from pop-tarting in and out of the battlefield, to stop that.

Entering and leaving play in one turn may seem like a blanket rule, but that's only because the units that could previously do so had rules preventing that. "Skyleaping" Swooping Hawks, for example, have rules that prevent them from Skyleaping on the turn they arrive from reserve.

Actually, I really like the every other turn concept, it's a good way to make them produce a lot of free points, while still being reasonable, and it encourages Seeker missiles.

More importantly, it rewards good play so much more than just doing it each turn where it's "Oh, I'll like vomit drones out and put them in reserves because whatever." since it gives you a turn of trying to move and shoot strategically enough to get within 6" of a table edge while still gaining from your movement. Piranhas are pretty fast, being able to deploy drones properly adds a massive skill level that's not make or break, when using this formation, which is always good.

That's really what you want in a game, where something like this can offer a 1-3% advantage if played absolutely optimally, so that it can be fun for weaker players and rewarding for top end players, without creating a massive disparity between the two.

 Tinkrr wrote:
Actually, I really like the every other turn concept, it's a good way to make them produce a lot of free points, while still being reasonable, and it encourages Seeker missiles.

More importantly, it rewards good play so much more than just doing it each turn where it's "Oh, I'll like vomit drones out and put them in reserves because whatever." since it gives you a turn of trying to move and shoot strategically enough to get within 6" of a table edge while still gaining from your movement. Piranhas are pretty fast, being able to deploy drones properly adds a massive skill level that's not make or break, when using this formation, which is always good.

That's really what you want in a game, where something like this can offer a 1-3% advantage if played absolutely optimally, so that it can be fun for weaker players and rewarding for top end players, without creating a massive disparity between the two.

The way you describe playing the formation and wanting every other turn is already how it works. Since you leave at the end of movement, if you want to shoot that turn you can't leave..so

Turn 1: move, drop drones shoot.
Turn 2 move to edge and leave
Turn 3: enter etc.

If you want a drone engine, then you have that option.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
Actually, I really like the every other turn concept, it's a good way to make them produce a lot of free points, while still being reasonable, and it encourages Seeker missiles.

More importantly, it rewards good play so much more than just doing it each turn where it's "Oh, I'll like vomit drones out and put them in reserves because whatever." since it gives you a turn of trying to move and shoot strategically enough to get within 6" of a table edge while still gaining from your movement. Piranhas are pretty fast, being able to deploy drones properly adds a massive skill level that's not make or break, when using this formation, which is always good.

That's really what you want in a game, where something like this can offer a 1-3% advantage if played absolutely optimally, so that it can be fun for weaker players and rewarding for top end players, without creating a massive disparity between the two.

The way you describe playing the formation and wanting every other turn is already how it works. Since you leave at the end of movement, if you want to shoot that turn you can't leave..so

Turn 1: move, drop drones shoot.
Turn 2 move to edge and leave
Turn 3: enter etc.

If you want a drone engine, then you have that option.

That is if you decide to shoot, which I'd be doing with a limited number of Piranhas armed with Seekers, but if you decide to forgo shooting right now it's just:

Turn 1: Drop drones, leave
Turn 2: Re-enter, drop drones, leave.
Continue for all future turns.

That seems a little too powerful really :/.

No one would actually let you play they could leave and come on in the same turn. Seriously.

aaron aleong wrote:
No one would actually let you play they could leave and come on in the same turn. Seriously.

And what rule would they have to say that they could not?

 Ghaz wrote:

aaron aleong wrote:
No one would actually let you play they could leave and come on in the same turn. Seriously.

And what rule would they have to say that they could not?

The rule of "Tau are cheese, nerf your army or I won't play with you" would be my guess.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

aaron aleong wrote:
No one would actually let you play they could leave and come on in the same turn. Seriously.

And what rule would they have to say that they could not?

The rule of "Tau are cheese, nerf your army or I won't play with you" would be my guess.

I believe that rule was first written in Codex: Waaaaahhhhhhh!

aaron aleong wrote:
No one would actually let you play they could leave and come on in the same turn. Seriously.

BRB only restriction for going into ongoing reserves for for flyers. There are many units in the game that have abilities to go into ongoing reserves, such as mawlocs; However, such units also have a clause that say they cannot enter ongoing reserves the same time they come in.

The firestream formation does not have such clause.. probably because as many have said it is an older apoc formation. It is completely possible that at the time it was more clear units could not enter the game and re-enter reserves in the same turn, but that is not currently the case.

Cheers

maceria wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

aaron aleong wrote:
No one would actually let you play they could leave and come on in the same turn. Seriously.

And what rule would they have to say that they could not?

The rule of "Tau are cheese, nerf your army or I won't play with you" would be my guess.

I believe that rule was first written in Codex: Waaaaahhhhhhh!

I believe it is known as ITC rules...

I might hope that if someone has the dream to produce 200 drones he might as well find some way to scratch build them themselves. We are talking about a mini that is just a bit more complex then most scenic bases.

Its also insanely expensive to use this formation so I doubt you'll see it.

For a 1500pt 8 formations of 4 piranhas + 128 additional gun drones is $3000.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Its also insanely expensive to use this formation so I doubt you'll see it.

For a 1500pt 8 formations of 4 piranhas + 128 additional gun drones is $3000.

Considering that nearly every Tau kit comes with 2+ gun drones, its easy enough to build up the points. Especially as the full cohort of drones is assuming your opponent doesn't kill a single drone all game...

I've got about 70 drones and 10 piranhas at home from my Tau army... I've got to say I'm a bit tempted to try this out.

There isn't a chance someone can target that many units. Plus the movement means you'll coat the table.

But lets dial it back.

In its basic 4 Piranha formation its 160pts and generates 24 units in 6 turns. That alone can win objective games.

Trasvi wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Its also insanely expensive to use this formation so I doubt you'll see it.

For a 1500pt 8 formations of 4 piranhas + 128 additional gun drones is $3000.

Considering that nearly every Tau kit comes with 2+ gun drones, its easy enough to build up the points. Especially as the full cohort of drones is assuming your opponent doesn't kill a single drone all game...

I've got about 70 drones and 10 piranhas at home from my Tau army... I've got to say I'm a bit tempted to try this out.

Yeah, you get loads of them I have a couple dozen of the little drone sprues in my pile I've never bothered assembling. And they would be piss-easy to scratch-build.

Death by a thousand duck sized horses.

This formation seems fun.. Competitively? Eh. Not the best, or even near it. We will see what the future holds for it. I never have heard of any unit period being able to 'pop tart' in and out on the same turn.. So if this skimmer could enter reserves and leave reserves at the same time, that's weird, as reserves are rolled at the beginning of the players turn and the. Movement is done after reserves have been brought it.. So turn 1 unload and leave.. Turn 2 come back on.. But since you entered, you can't exit.. Turn 3 leave again.. Turn 4 enter.. This is all if you don't roll a 1 or 2 on the reserve roll..

Ravenous D wrote:There isn't a chance someone can target that many units. Plus the movement means you'll coat the table.

But lets dial it back.

In its basic 4 Piranha formation its 160pts and generates 24 units in 6 turns. That alone can win objective games.

Drones can't score objectives I thought though? Just want this clarification?

Ceaser wrote:This formation seems fun.. Competitively? Eh. Not the best, or even near it. We will see what the future holds for it. I never have heard of any unit period being able to 'pop tart' in and out on the same turn.. So if this skimmer could enter reserves and leave reserves at the same time, that's weird, as reserves are rolled at the beginning of the players turn and the. Movement is done after reserves have been brought it.. So turn 1 unload and leave.. Turn 2 come back on.. But since you entered, you can't exit.. Turn 3 leave again.. Turn 4 enter.. This is all if you don't roll a 1 or 2 on the reserve roll..

This ruling has been covered already. BRB flyers may not enter ongoing reserves the same turn they entered. Many of the units you think of have wording in their rules for this situation. This formation however does not and thus can enter and leave at will. As per rolling.... You don't roll for ongoing reserves.. so if they left turn 1 it's auto back turn 2 etc.

Ceaser wrote:
This formation seems fun.. Competitively? Eh. Not the best, or even near it. We will see what the future holds for it. I never have heard of any unit period being able to 'pop tart' in and out on the same turn.. So if this skimmer could enter reserves and leave reserves at the same time, that's weird, as reserves are rolled at the beginning of the players turn and the. Movement is done after reserves have been brought it.. So turn 1 unload and leave.. Turn 2 come back on.. But since you entered, you can't exit.. Turn 3 leave again.. Turn 4 enter.. This is all if you don't roll a 1 or 2 on the reserve roll..

Sorry wrong. They enter automatically from ongoing reserves, drop off drones, and re-enter ongoing reserves at the end of the movement phase. Rinse and repeat