Finally the Ravenwing Strikeforce is FAQ'ed and it turned out my interpretation of RAI was 100% accurate.
Now we still have the kinda weird Deathwing Strike Force, specially in terms of Land Raiders as dedicated transports.
As a reminder:
- The formation only allowes units with the "Deathwing" special rule or dedicated transports of such units.
- Every unit must be placed in deepstrike reserve
There are 3 possible rule interpretations:
1) No LR allowed Pro: since they cannot deepstrike there is no way to put them on the table and they are destroyed at the end of the game.
Cons: This interpretation goes hand in hand with the insta lose turn 1 ravenwing strike force with flyers. Obviously not attended at all and therefore not a real option.
2) LR gaines the Deep Strike Rule Pro: LRs are clearly allowed in the formation since the rules specificly state, that dedicated transports are allowed. If every unit MUST be deployed as deep strikers, so this also applies to LRs Pro: It's the interpretation fitting the fluff of the deathwing best. (not the strongest argument, but hey ;-) )
Cons: It does not specificly state, that LRs get the Deep Strike Rule and therefore this would be a very extensive interpretation. Also try to explain that to your opponent...
Cons: Fluffy you say? LRs falling from the sky would most likely shatter them to pieces!
3) LR are deployed as normal, but without their units. Pro: Not deploying a unit in it's dedicated transport is no rule issue. Also since LRs do not have the DS special rule, they simply can't be placed in DS reserve and therefore have to be deployed as normal. (add "if possible" after the restriction)
Pro: This would also allow other Deathwing units without terminator armor (Ezekiel, Asmodai, Azrael) to join the formation.
Cons: While adding LRs to the formation obviously is intended, the case is not so clear for the above mentioned characters.
Cons: a unit that can not deep strike does not deserve to be in a deathwing strikeforce! The whole concept is to strike hard and fast via deep strike. -> Fluff says no.
How do you play it in your gaming group?
What is your favourite interpretation and why?
How I play it (until convinced of a better interpretation):
I actually prefer option 3 because I try to avoid unintentional restrictions as much as possible without inventing/adding special rules to units.
That's why I also always allowed Bike Characters in Ravenwing Strikeforces, but didn't give them the Ravenwing special rule.
Since Land Raiders are a valid option to take, there MUST be a way to actually deploy them.
Without addind DS to Land Raiders, the only way is to deploy as normal.
I feel, that players should be able to use their models in a fun way, since it's still a game. Fun is priority.
The Rules may be a permissive ruleset, but often they state to keep it fair and fun for everybody. In the same way as handling cover saves (if in doubt, allow cover saves to be taken) I also handle this restriction in the deathwing strike force.
Option #1 is the correct option. This actually makes perfect sense from a fluff standpoint, so I'm sure it's the intention. Deathwing Terminators don't ride into battle in their Land Raiders. They wait for the Ravenwing to identify a Fallen, then teleport in and smash some face.
Option #2 is incorrect because there is no wording granting Land Raiders the Deep Strike rule. If all chosen units must go into Deep Strike Reserves, then you necessarily must choose only from units that have the Deep Strike rule.
Option #3 is incorrect because you'd be violating the requirement that all units start in Deep Strike Reserves.
The "RAW" of it is that you are allowed to purchase Land Raiders, but are unable to deploy them or put them into reserves of any kind, resulting in a situation not covered by the rules. The rules only describe how to deploy something, or how to have it start in some kind of zone that isn't on the table (whether it be Deep Strike Reserves, Reserves, or Ongoing Reserves).
As such, the only reasonable option is Option #1, and please don't purchase Land Raiders. My argument here, though not 100% RAW supported, would be that any Land Raiders purchased would be undeployable and not played with, even though you spent points on them.
Option #2 is definitely not RAW, because permission to Deep Strike is definitely not implied. Only units with the Deep Strike special rule can start in Deep Strike Reserves. The rules of the formation place a restriction on a decision that is made after making your army list and starting the game. An implied permission would be something along the lines of "all units in this formation can and must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserves. This would be implying that the Land Raiders have gained the ability to start the game in Deep Strike Reserves without giving them the Deep Strike rule.
Option #3 is definitely not RAW, because of the restriction given by the formation applies to all units, including dedicated transports.
I disagree with Kriswall that the restrictions of a decision made during play constitutes a restriction on dataslate options. It's definitely allowable to take Land Raiders for the Deathwing Terminators. It's just impossible to use them.
In my opinion since land raider were given deep strike in the past via descent of angels rules for the blood angels codex, deep striking a land raider is not out of the question. Also it can be inferred that a landraider may be dropped off by say a thunderhawk kinda like jump troops deep strike. So IMO it does not restrict the land raider in the formation and the formation does say that all units arrive via deep strike EXCEPT dreadnoughts which are required to buy a pod to be included. The land raider gets to deep strike. If they made sure to go out of their way to handle the dreadnought issue imo it is assumed that the land raider IN THIS FORMATION ONLY is given the deep strike rule or it would have been stated as it was that the deathwing squads could NOT bring them as dedicated transports.
Implied permission is not permission. Please cite page and paragraph explicitly permitting me to grant the Deep Strike rule to a dedicated transport without the Deep Strike rule. Assuming you can't... and you can't, since it's not there... there is no permission to do so.
Again, Option #1 is the only option supported by the written text of the rules.
To be honest, I'm not even seeing implied permission. If I was a Tactical Marine and my Captain told me to go requisition a transport BUT that the transport would need to let me Deep Strike onto the battlefield, I wouldn't pick a Rhino. I'd pick a Drop Pod. It's the only thing that fits my Captain's instructions. I'm not going to have a Techmarine retrofit a Rhino for orbital insertion because of an implied permission to do so from my Captain. I was never even given permission to talk to the Techmarine (in much the same way that I'm not being given permission to bestow Deep Strike on a transport that doesn't have it).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yarium wrote: The "RAW" of it is that you are allowed to purchase Land Raiders, but are unable to deploy them or put them into reserves of any kind, resulting in a situation not covered by the rules. The rules only describe how to deploy something, or how to have it start in some kind of zone that isn't on the table (whether it be Deep Strike Reserves, Reserves, or Ongoing Reserves).
As such, the only reasonable option is Option #1, and please don't purchase Land Raiders. My argument here, though not 100% RAW supported, would be that any Land Raiders purchased would be undeployable and not played with, even though you spent points on them.
Option #2 is definitely not RAW, because permission to Deep Strike is definitely not implied. Only units with the Deep Strike special rule can start in Deep Strike Reserves. The rules of the formation place a restriction on a decision that is made after making your army list and starting the game. An implied permission would be something along the lines of "all units in this formation can and must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserves. This would be implying that the Land Raiders have gained the ability to start the game in Deep Strike Reserves without giving them the Deep Strike rule.
Option #3 is definitely not RAW, because of the restriction given by the formation applies to all units, including dedicated transports.
I disagree with Kriswall that the restrictions of a decision made during play constitutes a restriction on dataslate options. It's definitely allowable to take Land Raiders for the Deathwing Terminators. It's just impossible to use them.
Wouldn't you be able to take the Land Raiders, but then lose them when you're unable to deploy them? I don't have my rules on me, but I understand that there is wording to the effect that units that can't be deployed are destroyed? So, yes, RaW you can take the Land Raiders, but also RaW, you have no legal way to bring them onto the table.
FWIW - the current BA codex removed all traces of deep striking Land Raiders.
We also have a terminator only formation: the Orbital Intervention Force (Its in the shield of baal campaign). 3 squads of terminators that must be held in deep strike reserve. No restrictions on upgrades.
So although I originally voted for deploy LRs on table, I think now it should be that we're not supposed to take them.
But if you all decide Deathwing can do it then I'll be doing it too with this particular BA formation! ;-)
jeffersonian000 wrote:Option 2 is RAW, as permission to Deep Strike is implied, and implied permission is still permission in a permissive rule set.
The contradiction of this statement is strong.
chaosmarauder wrote:Where did games workshop post the ravenwing strike force faq? Can't find it
It is an FAQ that is not currently linked on any Games Workshop site but can only be found by typing the address correctly. Some people have worked it out and provided links.
But until it is linked on the site, I wouldn't consider it official.
jeffersonian000 wrote:Option 2 is RAW, as permission to Deep Strike is implied, and implied permission is still permission in a permissive rule set.
The contradiction of this statement is strong.
chaosmarauder wrote:Where did games workshop post the ravenwing strike force faq? Can't find it
It is an FAQ that is not currently linked on any Games Workshop site but can only be found by typing the address correctly. Some people have worked it out and provided links.
But until it is linked on the site, I wouldn't consider it official.
Why would you not consider it official...? That's just kinda ridiculous.
jeffersonian000 wrote:Option 2 is RAW, as permission to Deep Strike is implied, and implied permission is still permission in a permissive rule set.
The contradiction of this statement is strong.
chaosmarauder wrote:Where did games workshop post the ravenwing strike force faq? Can't find it
It is an FAQ that is not currently linked on any Games Workshop site but can only be found by typing the address correctly. Some people have worked it out and provided links.
But until it is linked on the site, I wouldn't consider it official.
It's official if you have a digital codex. Those have already been updated.
Charistoph wrote: It is an FAQ that is not currently linked on any Games Workshop site but can only be found by typing the address correctly. Some people have worked it out and provided links.
But until it is linked on the site, I wouldn't consider it official.
Why would you not consider it official...? That's just kinda ridiculous.
Because it may be changed again before it is released with a proper link. In addition, it leaves confusion in place when you have one with an updated digital version and one with a dead tree version with no update. I don't consider data-mining something a valid official release.
chaosmarauder wrote:Where did games workshop post the ravenwing strike force faq? Can't find it
It is an FAQ that is not currently linked on any Games Workshop site but can only be found by typing the address correctly. Some people have worked it out and provided links.
But until it is linked on the site, I wouldn't consider it official.
It's official if you have a digital codex. Those have already been updated.
From what I have heard the changes haven't even been activated yet, just downloaded to be released at the proper time. I could be wrong, though.
Being back on topic lets think about this in a reasonable fashion. Do terminator armies REALLY need anymore handicaps?
Will being able to deep strike the land raider take that deathwing list to such heights that it will begin crushing all foes in front of it? No no it wont. Maybe expressed permission is not there but really how bad are things? If you cant see past that then toy soldiers may not be for you.
namiel wrote: Being back on topic lets think about this in a reasonable fashion. Do terminator armies REALLY need anymore handicaps?
Will being able to deep strike the land raider take that deathwing list to such heights that it will begin crushing all foes in front of it? No no it wont. Maybe expressed permission is not there but really how bad are things? If you cant see past that then toy soldiers may not be for you.
I thought this was a rules as written discussion. If you want to make this a house rule, fine, mark your posts as HIWPI. If you don't think this is how the rules actually work, but would like it if they did, take this to the Proposed Rules sub-forum.
To be clear, whether or not something is "over powered" or "fair" or "really that bad" has no impact whatsoever on a rules discussion. It might impact a house rule, but we're not talking about house rules.
Also, this isn't "anymore handicaps". Nobody is trying to impose an additional restriction here. These rules have been in place for some time. Option #1 was RaW this morning, last week and last month.
namiel wrote: Being back on topic lets think about this in a reasonable fashion. Do terminator armies REALLY need anymore handicaps?
Will being able to deep strike the land raider take that deathwing list to such heights that it will begin crushing all foes in front of it? No no it wont. Maybe expressed permission is not there but really how bad are things? If you cant see past that then toy soldiers may not be for you.
I thought this was a rules as written discussion. If you want to make this a house rule, fine, mark your posts as HIWPI. If you don't think this is how the rules actually work, but would like it if they did, take this to the Proposed Rules sub-forum.
To be clear, whether or not something is "over powered" or "fair" or "really that bad" has no impact whatsoever on a rules discussion. It might impact a house rule, but we're not talking about house rules.
Also, this isn't "anymore handicaps". Nobody is trying to impose an additional restriction here. These rules have been in place for some time. Option #1 was RaW this morning, last week and last month.
Read my original post. The words "IN MY OPINION" are repeated several times there. I don't care to argue with rules lawyers they annoy the crap out of me. SO my opinion on the matter has been clearly stated and how I would play it is whichever makes the game more fun because for me that supersedes the rules EVERYTIME
No land raiders allowed. The Deathwing is famous for teleporting into combat in fluff and this is actually decently reflected in the rules.
Even Blood Angels had to modify their Land Raiders to be dropped from Thunderhawks to get the Deepstriking thing, and since the Deathwing just teleports in, it would be rather weird that they would send in Thunderhawks to drop empty Raiders and then have the occupants teleport in.
I have a feeling this would be a lot less of an issue of the Deathwing Strikeforce had an errata saying "may deepstrike on the first turn" since every single "ruling" that goes into them is to somehow find a way to field the army as a standalone force.
namiel wrote: Read my original post. The words "IN MY OPINION" are repeated several times there. I don't care to argue with rules lawyers they annoy the crap out of me. SO my opinion on the matter has been clearly stated and how I would play it is whichever makes the game more fun because for me that supersedes the rules EVERYTIME
Awesome. I'm happy for you. I also make changes routinely to the core rules to make for a more enjoyable game with my friends. BUT, to be fair to other users of this forum, I always clearly mark any house rule related posts with a HIWPI marker. I don't want to create a situation where someone shows up, doesn't read the entire thread and thinks I'm advocating that we should let an interpretation slide because it's not that big a deal. This forum is specifically for debating how the rules actually work versus an author's intentions, etc. Proposed rules (house rules) should really go in the Proposed Rules section.
namiel wrote: Read my original post. The words "IN MY OPINION" are repeated several times there. I don't care to argue with rules lawyers they annoy the crap out of me. SO my opinion on the matter has been clearly stated and how I would play it is whichever makes the game more fun because for me that supersedes the rules EVERYTIME
Awesome. I'm happy for you. I also make changes routinely to the core rules to make for a more enjoyable game with my friends. BUT, to be fair to other users of this forum, I always clearly mark any house rule related posts with a HIWPI marker. I don't want to create a situation where someone shows up, doesn't read the entire thread and thinks I'm advocating that we should let an interpretation slide because it's not that big a deal. This forum is specifically for debating how the rules actually work versus an author's intentions, etc. Proposed rules (house rules) should really go in the Proposed Rules section.
namiel wrote:In my opinion since land raider were given deep strike in the past via descent of angels rules for the blood angels codex, deep striking a land raider is not out of the question. Also it can be inferred that a landraider may be dropped off by say a thunderhawk kinda like jump troops deep strike. So IMO it does not restrict the land raider in the formation and the formation does say that all units arrive via deep strike EXCEPT dreadnoughts which are required to buy a pod to be included. The land raider gets to deep strike. If they made sure to go out of their way to handle the dreadnought issue imo it is assumed that the land raider IN THIS FORMATION ONLY is given the deep strike rule or it would have been stated as it was that the deathwing squads could NOT bring them as dedicated transports.
namiel wrote: Being back on topic lets think about this in a reasonable fashion. Do terminator armies REALLY need anymore handicaps?
Will being able to deep strike the land raider take that deathwing list to such heights that it will begin crushing all foes in front of it? No no it wont. Maybe expressed permission is not there but really how bad are things? If you cant see past that then toy soldiers may not be for you.
hmmmm
I'm not worried about your earlier posts. I was commenting on this one. Please highlight the "in my opinon" or "HIWPI" markers for me. I'll wait.
You don't need to tell me that this game isn't for me because I don't think Land Raiders should be able to magically deep strike when nothing in the background lore would indicate this is something the Dark Angels do.
Just to note - you could play a homebrew mission or some tournament could publish a mission where forces not normally allowed to deep strike can then do so. In this case, you still retain the option to purchase Land Raiders as part of this formation :-)
Yarium wrote: Just to note - you could play a homebrew mission or some tournament could publish a mission where forces not normally allowed to deep strike can then do so. In this case, you still retain the option to purchase Land Raiders as part of this formation :-)
Like Planetstrike? Oh, wait, that doesn't work for Vehicles...
Nobody here has brought up the Drop Pod example. Drop Pods do not explicitly have the Deep Strike rule. It's granted by the Drop Pod Assault rule, much like a Deathwing Strike Force's Dedicated Transports Deep Strike per the detachment's Summoned to War rule.
I did once try a gimmick army with Drop Pods, Locater Beacons, and a deep striking land raider that didn't scatter within 6" of the pod. It was not very effective; far too slow.
Permissive rule set. You can't deep strike a Land Raider without any permission to do so. The Drop Pod example isn't relevant as Drop Pods have permission to use a Deep Strike process. Deathwing Land Raiders don't.
Kriswall wrote: Permissive rule set. You can't deep strike a Land Raider without any permission to do so. The Drop Pod example isn't relevant as Drop Pods have permission to use a Deep Strike process. Deathwing Land Raiders don't.
Drop Pods have as much permission to as Dedicated Transports in the Deathwing Strike Force. Drop Pods do not natively have Deep Strike, but must start the game in Deep Strike Reserves. So, too, every unit in the detachment must start in Deep Strike Reserves.
So, you can Deep Strike Land Raiders as much as Drop Pods. Unless you can identify the key differences in the rules to separate them?
For those codex-impaired:
Spoiler:
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserve. At the beginning of your first turn, half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally. Once a Drop Pod lands, all passengers must disembark and no models can embark for the rest of the game.
Spoiler:
Summoned to War: All units in this Detachment must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve. If your army includes a Ravenwing Attack Squadron or a Ravenwing Strike Force (see below), you can choose to automatically pass or fail any Reserve Rolls you make for units in this Detachment; there is no need to roll.
Kriswall wrote: Permissive rule set. You can't deep strike a Land Raider without any permission to do so. The Drop Pod example isn't relevant as Drop Pods have permission to use a Deep Strike process. Deathwing Land Raiders don't.
No, Drop Pods do not have permission to use a Deep Strike process. I know, I had to double check my codex too! (Also, did you know the Baneblade is not a Tank? who writes this stuff lololololol)
And if anyone cares, I just checked the BA orbital intervention formation from Exterminatus. It's the same, units must start in deep strike reserve, no restrictions on unit upgrades. weird!
jeffersonian000 wrote: As I said, implied permission is permission in a permissive rule set.
SJ
This is still wrong. I'm just changing my opinion because I'm more willing to make an allowance for GW's garbage writing. If we take a hardline RaW stance on Deathwing Land Raiders, we have to take the same stance on Drop Pods. Doing otherwise makes us hypocrites. I don't think implied permission is RaW permission, but I do think Drop Pods are intended to Deep Strike and don't want to be a hypocrite about the Land Raiders.
Being told to start in Deep Strike Reserve and to then arrive from reserves implies the Deep Strike rules, despite not having the Deep Strike rule. Implied permission is still permission. Saying it isn't so does not make it not so.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Being told to start in Deep Strike Reserve and to then arrive from reserves implies the Deep Strike rules, despite not having the Deep Strike rule. Implied permission is still permission. Saying it isn't so does not make it not so.
Rules As Implied is not Rules As Written, so just saying it is implied does not make it so. Especially when being put in Deep Strike Reserves requires having the Deep Strike rule.
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin
the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
Your sentence does not technically disallow this one.
Deathwing Assault:
All units in this Formation must be placed in Deep Strike Reserve. Immediately after determining Warlord Traits, make a secret note of which of your turns you would like each Deathwing Redemption Force in your army to arrive: your turn 2, 3 or 4. All units in this Formation automatically arrive by Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn.
If this Formation includes a Venerable Dreadnought embarked in a Drop Pod, the Drop Pod automatically arrives at the start of the chosen turn, and ignores the normal rules that determine when a Drop Pod arrives.
This is so weird. Formations/detachments give units rules/abilities that they don't normally have or aren't normally allowed, never understood why it was so contentious in this case.
Step 1, you can take land raiders in this detachment.
Step 2, everything must start in deep strike reserve.
Step 3...... Does everything I'm allowed to take in this formation start in deep strike reserve or does this now mean I can't take the land raiders that it says I can..??
Most formations would be pretty useless if we applied that logic... I mean where a formation says "every unit in this formation have Fearless" ... Wait that means I can only take units which have fearless in the formation??
This is so weird. Formations/detachments give units rules/abilities that they don't normally have or aren't normally allowed, never understood why it was so contentious in this case.
Step 1, you can take land raiders in this detachment.
Step 2, everything must start in deep strike reserve.
Step 3...... Does everything I'm allowed to take in this formation start in deep strike reserve or does this now mean I can't take the land raiders that it says I can..??
Most formations would be pretty useless if we applied that logic... I mean where a formation says "every unit in this formation have Fearless" ... Wait that means I can only take units which have fearless in the formation??
There is a difference between "everything has" and "everything must have", so your example isn't a good one.
"Dedicated Transports in this Formation have the Deep Strike special rule" isn't the same thing as "Dedicated Transports in this Formation must begin in Deep Strike Reserves". The first grants a rule. The second imposes a restriction. Since I'm selecting the Formation before I select the units in the Formation, I am aware of this restriction when making my unit selections. If I know that all units selected must start in Deep Strike Reserves, I should probably only select units that have the ability to come in from Deep Strike Reserves. Typically, this would mean any unit that has the Deep Strike rule OR is riding in a deep strike process using Transport OR has special wording allowing a Deep Strike process without having the Deep Strike rule (such as with Drop Pods). Land Raiders in this situation don't have the Deep Strike rule, definitely aren't inside a Transport and don't actually have special wording. There is an implication, but the implication creates a scenario that would never exist in the fluff, so probably doesn't align with the author's intent.
HIWPI - If I were at a tournament and the TO decided to allow Deep Striking Land Raiders, I'd go along with it, but I'd think it was a little forced. My group of friends all agrees that Land Raiders can't teleport (which is the preferred method of attack for the Deathwing).
Deathwing Assault:
All units in this Formation must be placed in Deep Strike Reserve. Immediately after determining Warlord Traits, make a secret note of which of your turns you would like each Deathwing Redemption Force in your army to arrive: your turn 2, 3 or 4. All units in this Formation automatically arrive by Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn.
If this Formation includes a Venerable Dreadnought embarked in a Drop Pod, the Drop Pod automatically arrives at the start of the chosen turn, and ignores the normal rules that determine when a Drop Pod arrives.
Much like the last:
Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
Your sentence does not technically disallow this one.
This is so weird. Formations/detachments give units rules/abilities that they don't normally have or aren't normally allowed, never understood why it was so contentious in this case.
Because the Detachment is not actually granting the rule, but requiring it. The Ravenwing detachment didn't grant the Ravenwing Special Rule to those who joined it any more than Deep Strike is granted to these.
Piousservant wrote: Step 1, you can take land raiders in this detachment.
Step 2, everything must start in deep strike reserve.
Step 3...... Does everything I'm allowed to take in this formation start in deep strike reserve or does this now mean I can't take the land raiders that it says I can..??
Most formations would be pretty useless if we applied that logic... I mean where a formation says "every unit in this formation have Fearless" ... Wait that means I can only take units which have fearless in the formation??
There is a difference between:
* All units must be able to Deep Strike
and:
* Special Rules: Deep Strike
* {Special Rule}: Units in this Formation/Detachment receive the Deep Strike Special Rule.
As been referenced, Drop Pods technically do not have Deep Strike, but are required to. Dedicated Land Raiders in the Deathwing detachments must Deep Strike, but do not have the rule.
It is an assumption that they are given the rule posthumously by the requirement, but no such rule actually ignores this requirement. For the sake of intelligent design, I would allow it for both cases, though.
And no, Gate of Infinity and Veil of Darkness are completely different cases.
I still think that if you select a unit that doesn't have a mechanism for being placed in Deep Strike Reserve, you can't obey the requirement to do so and have put together an invalid Formation.
Kriswall wrote: I still think that if you select a unit that doesn't have a mechanism for being placed in Deep Strike Reserve, you can't obey the requirement to do so and have put together an invalid Formation.
Which would make Drop Pods an illegal unit by the same reasoning, as they do not possess Deep Strike nor are not granted Deep Strike by any other rule.
This is so weird. Formations/detachments give units rules/abilities that they don't normally have or aren't normally allowed, never understood why it was so contentious in this case.
Because the Detachment is not actually granting the rule, but requiring it. The Ravenwing detachment didn't grant the Ravenwing Special Rule to those who joined it any more than Deep Strike is granted to these.
Piousservant wrote: Step 1, you can take land raiders in this detachment.
Step 2, everything must start in deep strike reserve.
Step 3...... Does everything I'm allowed to take in this formation start in deep strike reserve or does this now mean I can't take the land raiders that it says I can..??
Most formations would be pretty useless if we applied that logic... I mean where a formation says "every unit in this formation have Fearless" ... Wait that means I can only take units which have fearless in the formation??
There is a difference between:
* All units must be able to Deep Strike
and:
* Special Rules: Deep Strike
* {Special Rule}: Units in this Formation/Detachment receive the Deep Strike Special Rule.
As been referenced, Drop Pods technically do not have Deep Strike, but are required to. Dedicated Land Raiders in the Deathwing detachments must Deep Strike, but do not have the rule.
It is an assumption that they are given the rule posthumously by the requirement, but no such rule actually ignores this requirement. For the sake of intelligent design, I would allow it for both cases, though.
And no, Gate of Infinity and Veil of Darkness are completely different cases.
Except, you've added some words in there. If the detachment said that all units in it "must be able to" deep strike then it wouldn't be up for debate. Instead it just says that they "must" - which you're saying is a restriction (they must be able to) but without those extra words of yours it doesn't mean that.
To put it another way (as I'd agree my example wasn't the best), if a detachment/formation says I can take some units and then says I must do something that they can't normally do - surely it's clear that the units then can, in fact, do whatever "it" is in that specific instance? Just curious, if the detachment entry specifically said you can take say 0-3 land raiders, would you still think that the "must enter ds reserve" means that you can't actually take those land raiders? I don't see how that makes any sense.
But... For the record I think deep striking land raiders is pretty daft, but if that's the only way I can legally use them in a DW army then so be it! (And as anyone who tried it with the 5th ed BA codex will probably attest, deep striking land raiders are a magnet for mishaps on a table with any kind of decent amount of terrain!)
Piousservant wrote: Except, you've added some words in there. If the detachment said that all units in it "must be able to" deep strike then it wouldn't be up for debate. Instead it just says that they "must" - which you're saying is a restriction (they must be able to) but without those extra words of yours it doesn't mean that.
To put it another way (as I'd agree my example wasn't the best), if a detachment/formation says I can take some units and then says I must do something that they can't normally do - surely it's clear that the units then can, in fact, do whatever "it" is in that specific instance? Just curious, if the detachment entry specifically said you can take say 0-3 land raiders, would you still think that the "must enter ds reserve" means that you can't actually take those land raiders? I don't see how that makes any sense.
Saying something can do something because it is a requirement, even though they lack the ability, is assuming a situation, especially when that something is not required to be included in the first place when it comes to Deathwing Dedicated Land Raiders. You are assuming permission based on a requirement and not an ability.
That being said, I think that some assumptions were made by the editors and writers and we're expected to make up the difference. Pretty much par for Sandboxhammer.
I've allowed my opponents to have their Deepstriking Landraiders. Everything must be in DSan reserve, and there is no restrictions on the LR, I wouldn't argue against it...
However I am glad they (sorta) cleared up the Characters on a Bike and whether they get the Ravenwing special rules, which it seems like they do not.
Kriswall wrote: I still think that if you select a unit that doesn't have a mechanism for being placed in Deep Strike Reserve, you can't obey the requirement to do so and have put together an invalid Formation.
Which would make Drop Pods an illegal unit by the same reasoning, as they do not possess Deep Strike nor are not granted Deep Strike by any other rule.
Definitely more of a HWIPI design.
So this is more like the Psyker ICs in a unit thing. The rules as written don't really work, but as a convention, we all agree that Drop Pods can deep strike despite not having the deep strike rule and never being explicitly granted said rule. I'm not sure I'd buy into the same convention for Land Raiders. Drop Pods are clearly designed to Deep Strike. Land Raiders aren't. Even in the fluff, Deathwing are usually shown teleporting in. I don't think I've ever read of an instance where Deathwing are deployed via Thunderhawk Transport carried Land Raiders dropping out of the sky. I know fluff doesn't justify rules, but it should inform interpretation when there is an ambiguity.
The land raider might be destroyed - it is placed in deep strike reserve but without the deep strike rule there is nothing allowing it to come out of deep strike reserve.
Under Deep Strike in BRB:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule
and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your
opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must
arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
The phrase 'you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve' could also mean though that because the land raider was placed in deep strike reserve it now has the express permission to deep strike.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Reading the above quote again though - 'In order for a unit to be able to Deep strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule' is pretty straight forward.
chaosmarauder wrote: The land raider might be destroyed - it is placed in deep strike reserve but without the deep strike rule there is nothing allowing it to come out of deep strike reserve.
Under Deep Strike in BRB:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule
and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your
opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must
arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
The phrase 'you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve' could also mean though that because the land raider was placed in deep strike reserve it now has the express permission to deep strike.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Reading the above quote again though - 'In order for a unit to be able to Deep strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule' is pretty straight forward.
So you're saying Drop Pods cannot Deep Strike because they do not have the Deep Strike rule?
chaosmarauder wrote: The land raider might be destroyed - it is placed in deep strike reserve but without the deep strike rule there is nothing allowing it to come out of deep strike reserve.
Under Deep Strike in BRB:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule
and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your
opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must
arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
The phrase 'you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve' could also mean though that because the land raider was placed in deep strike reserve it now has the express permission to deep strike.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Reading the above quote again though - 'In order for a unit to be able to Deep strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule' is pretty straight forward.
So you're saying Drop Pods cannot Deep Strike because they do not have the Deep Strike rule?
From a strict rules as written perspective, this is correct. Nobody actually plays it this way though, but technically Drop Pods can't Deep Strike without having the Deep Strike rule. There is no rule specifically saying that they can deep strike despite not having the rule.
GW writes bad rules. This is nothing new. A certain amount of interpretation an agreement to overlook inconsistencies is required to play this game. Generally speaking, the intent (Drop Pods should be able to Deep Strike) is fairly clear, but in other instances (Land Raiders should be able to Deep Strike?!?), it's not. These are the instances where we bicker endlessly over the rules. We're really bickering over our interpretation of the rules and interpretation is often colored by how we think things should work.
BRB - Basic Versus Advanced wrote:On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always
takes precedence.
BRB - Deep Strike wrote:In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
(...)
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
The above Deep Strike restrictions was overwriten by Advanced Codex rules such as this:
Deathwing Strike Force wrote:Summoned to War: All units in this Detachment must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve.
Drop Pod: wrote:Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserve.
About arrival-hole problem claimed by some people - that units are destroyed because there is no way to deploy them because of lack of DS rule:
BRB - Deep Strike wrote:When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
From above sentence we know that placing in "Deep Strike Reserve" is equal to "placing in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike". Again - it was granted by Advanced rules.
That is it!
We already know that those units are placed in DSR all proper permissions to arrive by Deep Strike are granted.
About fluff There is problem with believing in flying Land Raiders so could someone please my explain why Terminator Armour may teleport and Land Raider can't?
BRB - Basic Versus Advanced wrote:On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always
takes precedence.
BRB - Deep Strike wrote:In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
(...)
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
The above Deep Strike restrictions was overwriten by Advanced Codex rules such as this:
Deathwing Strike Force wrote:Summoned to War: All units in this Detachment must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve.
Drop Pod: wrote:Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserve.
About arrival-hole problem claimed by some people - that units are destroyed because there is no way to deploy them because of lack of DS rule:
BRB - Deep Strike wrote:When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
From above sentence we know that placing in "Deep Strike Reserve" is equal to "placing in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike". Again - it was granted by Advanced rules.
That is it!
We already know that those units are placed in DSR all proper permissions to arrive by Deep Strike are granted.?
The problem being that they are still not literally granted Deep Strike, so do not qualify to use Deep Strike afterwards.
There is an implication, not in argument, but nothing in there to this point that reverse grants Deep Strike to models required to be in Deep Strike Reserves. This is an assumption, a reasonable one, but an assumption, nonetheless.
And yes, it is like a lot of Psychic Phase rules which require some work beyond a computer's processing to work properly. But that is nothing new, it's just really common these days.
The Titans of the Legio Astorum, known as the Warp Runners, are the only god-machines sophisticated enough to teleport straight into battle. This is a point of pride amongst the Lucians, and cause of envy amongst their fellow legions.
Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Skitarii (eBook Edition).” Games Workshop Ltd, 2015-03-25. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
Kriswall wrote: I still think that if you select a unit that doesn't have a mechanism for being placed in Deep Strike Reserve, you can't obey the requirement to do so and have put together an invalid Formation.
Which would make Drop Pods an illegal unit by the same reasoning, as they do not possess Deep Strike nor are not granted Deep Strike by any other rule.
Definitely more of a HWIPI design.
Since when can drop pods not use the Deep Strike rules to enter play?
From above sentence we know that placing in "Deep Strike Reserve" is equal to "placing in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike".
The problem being that they are still not literally granted Deep Strike, so do not qualify to use Deep Strike afterwards.
There is an implication, not in argument, but nothing in there to this point that reverse grants Deep Strike to models required to be in Deep Strike Reserves. This is an assumption, a reasonable one, but an assumption, nonetheless.
And yes, it is like a lot of Psychic Phase rules which require some work beyond a computer's processing to work properly. But that is nothing new, it's just really common these days.
I am sorry, but why "placing in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike" granted to units in Deep Strike Reserves is not sufficient to use Deep Strike rule?
"arriving by Deep Strike"
"by Deep Strike"
"Deep Strike"
?
Why Storm Ravens Skies of Fury allow to use Deep Strike rules by saing "as if it were Deep Striking" and our "arriving by Deep Strike" is not (both rules does not grant explicit Deep Strike rule)?
I don't speak english and surely I am wrong somwhere there, so I will not argue any more, just explain me above
Well back to the original OP and rereading the thread.
No LR allowed - this is not a restriction of the formation, so technically it is allowed
LR gains the deep strike rule - technically no but, it 'must be placed in deep strike reserve' which from what I can tell, like a drop pod as precedent, means that it will be arriving like a drop pod (no inertial guidance though)
LR are deployed as normal without their units - no nothing in any of the rules says to do this
Conclusion:
Ultimately, because of the 'must be placed in deep strike reserves' rule - the thing has the exact same rules as a drop pod! No inertial guidance and with the large footprint means the thing will need to be placed like 20" away from an enemy, ally or board edge though to be safe.
BRB - Basic Versus Advanced wrote:On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always
takes precedence.
BRB - Deep Strike wrote:In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
(...)
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
The above Deep Strike restrictions was overwriten by Advanced Codex rules such as this:
Deathwing Strike Force wrote:Summoned to War: All units in this Detachment must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve.
Drop Pod: wrote:Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserve.
About arrival-hole problem claimed by some people - that units are destroyed because there is no way to deploy them because of lack of DS rule:
BRB - Deep Strike wrote:When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
From above sentence we know that placing in "Deep Strike Reserve" is equal to "placing in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike". Again - it was granted by Advanced rules.
That is it!
We already know that those units are placed in DSR all proper permissions to arrive by Deep Strike are granted.
About fluff There is problem with believing in flying Land Raiders so could someone please my explain why Terminator Armour may teleport and Land Raider can't?
STC Teleport Platforms are too small to accommodate Land Raiders. Plus, the Land Raiders can't get through the door to the Teleportarium. Seriously dude. It's like you've never been on a Battle Barge.
Kriswall wrote: I still think that if you select a unit that doesn't have a mechanism for being placed in Deep Strike Reserve, you can't obey the requirement to do so and have put together an invalid Formation.
Which would make Drop Pods an illegal unit by the same reasoning, as they do not possess Deep Strike nor are not granted Deep Strike by any other rule.
Definitely more of a HWIPI design.
Since when can drop pods not use the Deep Strike rules to enter play?
Since they lost the Deep Strike Special Rule. The setup for a Drop Pod in Deep Strike Reserves is the same mechanism for placing a Deathwing unit's Dedicated Land Raider in Deep Strike Reserves. To deny one is to deny the other. To accept one is to accept the other.
Skyhammer Devastators would be able to Deep Strike as easily without their Drop Pods due to the same conditions, I believe.
From above sentence we know that placing in "Deep Strike Reserve" is equal to "placing in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike".
The problem being that they are still not literally granted Deep Strike, so do not qualify to use Deep Strike afterwards.
There is an implication, not in argument, but nothing in there to this point that reverse grants Deep Strike to models required to be in Deep Strike Reserves. This is an assumption, a reasonable one, but an assumption, nonetheless.
And yes, it is like a lot of Psychic Phase rules which require some work beyond a computer's processing to work properly. But that is nothing new, it's just really common these days.
I am sorry, but why "placing in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike" granted to units in Deep Strike Reserves is not sufficient to use Deep Strike rule? "arriving by Deep Strike" "by Deep Strike" "Deep Strike" ?
Why Storm Ravens Skies of Fury allow to use Deep Strike rules by saing "as if it were Deep Striking" and our "arriving by Deep Strike" is not (both rules does not grant explicit Deep Strike rule)?
I don't speak english and surely I am wrong somwhere there, so I will not argue any more, just explain me above
"Arriving by Deep Strike" is a section of the Deep Strike rules that talk about how it is put on the board after being removed in cases like the Psychic Gate of Infinity power or the Necron Relic Veil of Darkness. This section does not require Deep Strike Reserves by itself.
"As if it were Deep Striking" is creating a temporary condition to simulate the state being described, as opposed to being in the actual condition.
The other conditions we are talking about here do not skip over options or conditions as laid out in the rules. In order to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the rule (or be embarked on a Transport with a rule). You must declare they are in Reserves to Deep Strike, and this is called Deep Strike Reserves. And even those units which much start in Deep Strike Reserves are not noted as having been relieved of these conditions. Any such release of this obligation is being assumed because a Transport which has always Deep Striked has these conditions but without having the actual Special Rule.
Kriswall wrote: I still think that if you select a unit that doesn't have a mechanism for being placed in Deep Strike Reserve, you can't obey the requirement to do so and have put together an invalid Formation.
Which would make Drop Pods an illegal unit by the same reasoning, as they do not possess Deep Strike nor are not granted Deep Strike by any other rule.
Definitely more of a HWIPI design.
Since when can drop pods not use the Deep Strike rules to enter play?
Since they lost the Deep Strike Special Rule.
But they have a rule that explicitly lets them deep strike.
Kriswall wrote: I still think that if you select a unit that doesn't have a mechanism for being placed in Deep Strike Reserve, you can't obey the requirement to do so and have put together an invalid Formation.
Which would make Drop Pods an illegal unit by the same reasoning, as they do not possess Deep Strike nor are not granted Deep Strike by any other rule.
Definitely more of a HWIPI design.
Since when can drop pods not use the Deep Strike rules to enter play?
Since they lost the Deep Strike Special Rule.
But they have a rule that explicitly lets them deep strike.
Like what? Drop Pod Assault does not specifically state they get Deep Strike, and the only other mention of Deep Strike on the Datasheet is regarding Mishaps. All Drop Pod Assault states is that they "must be held in Deep Strike Reserve." Same as Deathwing detachment Special Rules/Command Benefits and Skyhammer Annihilation Formation Special Rules.
So, to deny one is to deny the other. To accept one is to accept the other.
DeathReaper wrote: Drop Pod Assault specifically states they get to use the Deep Strike rules.
Just as much as the Deathwing detachment rules do:
Spoiler:
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserve. At the beginning of your first turn, half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally. Once a Drop Pod lands, all passengers must disembark and no models can embark for the rest of the game.
Spoiler:
Summoned to War: All units in this Detachment must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve. If your army includes a Ravenwing Attack Squadron or a Ravenwing Strike Force (see below), you can choose to automatically pass or fail any Reserve Rolls you make for units in this Detachment; there is no need to roll.
You need to you der stand the Differenzen between the deep Strike special rule and "must begin in deep Strike reserve".
The first gives you a choice to deploy in the board - something pods can not do. The do not habe the special rule, although they have to start in deep Strike. No choice!
Same with the deathwingstrike force, hast DS, no special rule, no choice. The formation has no restriction like " must have DS ".
Comparing this allows us to unterstand what this actually means: you have to da, wether you have th e special rule granting you the choice is of no relevance.
If you want to call it implied Perkussion or whatever makes no difference: all units in tbis formation can deep Strike AND have to do so. Like drop pods.
Also take in consideration, that the only choice for " dedicated Transport" is the landraider. Speciticly calling it out to be allowed in the formation makes only sense, if there is a way to deploy it.
Here I was going to mention a local 'fix' of Land Raiders and any units within being deployed normally just to make everyone happy, but agreed with Kriswall, my stance has been completely changed. I'll have to spread that around my gaming group. The Dark Angel player will be so happy.
DeathReaper wrote: Drop Pod Assault specifically states they get to use the Deep Strike rules.
Just as much as the Deathwing detachment rules do:
Spoiler:
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserve. At the beginning of your first turn, half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally. Once a Drop Pod lands, all passengers must disembark and no models can embark for the rest of the game.
Spoiler:
Summoned to War: All units in this Detachment must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve. If your army includes a Ravenwing Attack Squadron or a Ravenwing Strike Force (see below), you can choose to automatically pass or fail any Reserve Rolls you make for units in this Detachment; there is no need to roll.
So what is the difference between, "Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserve" and " All units in this Detachment must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve"?
DeathReaper wrote: Drop Pod Assault specifically states they get to use the Deep Strike rules.
Just as much as the Deathwing detachment rules do:
Spoiler:
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserve. At the beginning of your first turn, half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally. Once a Drop Pod lands, all passengers must disembark and no models can embark for the rest of the game.
Spoiler:
Summoned to War: All units in this Detachment must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve. If your army includes a Ravenwing Attack Squadron or a Ravenwing Strike Force (see below), you can choose to automatically pass or fail any Reserve Rolls you make for units in this Detachment; there is no need to roll.
Those do not say the same thing
Expound and extrapolate the differences between "must be held in Deep Strike Reserve" and "must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve".
Haha I tried it.
I even showed my opponent the drop pod rule.
He was like "yeah, but for the drop pod it's clear that it can deep strike, for the landraider not. Land Raiders can not deepstrike".
No discussion possible "because they just can't" :-P
The land raiders do not have permission. To arrive from ds reserves, or to arrive by ds.
The drop pod rule states they must arrive from ds. The dw rule does not give any permission to arrive on its own.
Without that you fall back on the ds rules requiring ds which the dw rule does not grant.
So option 4. You can take land raiders and when they roll for reserves if they pass they are removed from play as they have no permission to be placed from ds reserves, only permission to go into it.
blaktoof wrote:The land raiders do not have permission. To arrive from ds reserves, or to arrive by ds.
The drop pod rule states they must arrive from ds. The dw rule does not give any permission to arrive on its own.
Without that you fall back on the ds rules requiring ds which the dw rule does not grant.
So option 4. You can take land raiders and when they roll for reserves if they pass they are removed from play as they have no permission to be placed from ds reserves, only permission to go into it.
Not factual at all, here are the rules in question:
Spoiler:
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserve. At the beginning of your first turn, half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally. Once a Drop Pod lands, all passengers must disembark and no models can embark for the rest of the game.
Spoiler:
Summoned to War: All units in this Detachment must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve. If your army includes a Ravenwing Attack Squadron or a Ravenwing Strike Force (see below), you can choose to automatically pass or fail any Reserve Rolls you make for units in this Detachment; there is no need to roll.
Running the relevant parts parallel to each other, you end up with:
"Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserve." "All units in this Detachment must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve."
Aeri wrote: Haha I tried it.
I even showed my opponent the drop pod rule.
He was like "yeah, but for the drop pod it's clear that it can deep strike, for the landraider not. Land Raiders can not deepstrike".
No discussion possible "because they just can't" :-P
Next time tell him there is fluff and precedent - blood angels landraiders in previous codex could deepstrike and had fluff to back it up
Aeri wrote: what was the fluff if I may ask? dont have a BA codex at hand.
Forgeworld used to sell a Thunderhawk Transport. It's been discontinued for awhile. I can't imagine it was a hot seller. The Land Raiders don't teleport in like Terminators or drop from the skies like a Drop Pod. They were brought in using these bad boys.
Running the relevant parts parallel to each other, you end up with:
"Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserve." "All units in this Detachment must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve."
great summary I'll quote whenever this comes up again.
A surprising twist... I'll have to check BS if that all is possible, especially the named IC's.
This in turn means that IC's do also not HAVE to have terminator armor equipped. Still feels weird to me and not gonna do it, but rules are rules..
As with a lot of the unusual formation interactions (Scouting fortifications for Skitarii, Ws2/Bs5 Waveserpents etc) i think this is probably an oversight - but looks like it's legit. Has a whiff of rules lawyering about it though.
Skitarii can't scout fortifications and WS aren't Bs2 on snap shots and it seems entirely intended for them to be bs5 normally otherwise.
This seems more unintentional particularly with regards to ICs without DS. However they haven't explained it well enough to give clarity either way on that so I'd probably advise playing RaW in this situation for consistency if nothing else.
A point that came up in the FBDA group after a lengthy discussion...
"STW does not mitigate the requirement of needing the deep strike rule as all it says is they can automatically pass or fail reserve rolls. It makes no mention of them arriving from reserve.
The difference is DPA specifically mentioned the pods arriving on the board and how they do it. STW does not, saying that a land raider automatically passes it's reserve rule is fine, but it doesn't meet the requirements to come on the board"
DPA makes no mention of deepstrike or how the DPs arrive. Just that they arrive automatically from reserve and that the passengers must disembark when the pod "lands".
FlingitNow wrote: Skitarii can't scout fortifications and WS aren't Bs2 on snap shots and it seems entirely intended for them to be bs5 normally otherwise.
This seems more unintentional particularly with regards to ICs without DS. However they haven't explained it well enough to give clarity either way on that so I'd probably advise playing RaW in this situation for consistency if nothing else.
Skitarii Fortifications (in the detachment that's name escapes me) have the scout special rule, whether they can use it or not is a kettle of fish i've no intention on getting into. Not sure where snap shots comes from re: WaveSerpents? I was talking about the Aspect Host formation (I think that's the right name - correct me if wrong) that allows you to add +1 to either Weapon Skill or Ballistic Skill to the units in the formation. I find it hard to believe that GW intended for Wave Serpents to be able to get a Weapon Skill benefit.
Personally when playing against people you don't know (especially at an event) I would just not buy Land Raiders for the formation. Typically my rule for these situations is: the more longwinded the rules justification is, the more likely it is to cause a disagreement at the table, and it's just not worth it. Opinions may (will) vary.
Sorry misunderstood what you meant on Wave Serpents, vehicles don't have a WS just a set value that attacks are resolved at. You can't use scout on the Skitarii stuff as Fortifications don't have a unit type.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And the Landraider discussion is as quick as "do you alliw drop pods to deepstrike?" I take it to pick up games against unknown opponents you don't use Drop Pods either as the issues are identical?
I think it's generally accepted that Drop Pods can deepstrike, in the same way that its generally accepted that Papa Smurf has powerfists despite them not actually being listed on his profile.
Taking the attitude "If you want your drop pods to be able to deepstrike then my landraiders can because the rule is similar" will make you sound like an obstinate rules lawyer to many people. It's a janky sounding rule and i think many people will (rightly) disagree with it, despite it being technically correct by RAW.
Again, not saying it's wrong by RAW, just that its the sort of thing that should probably be cleared with an opponent before putting it on the table, like so many things in 40k.
Seems i was mistaken with Calgar - wonder where on earth i picked up that idea.
At the risk of starting up the argument afresh you haven't proved they can Deepstrike, what you've actually done is cast doubt on whether (by RAW) Drop Pods are able to Deepstrike. Obviously no-one is actually going to argue that you can't Deepstrike with Drop Pods and you're using that to essentially blackmail other players into letting you play your Land Raiders the way you want to. The point of my previous posts is it's bad form to just turn up and expect other players to bow to your view on this rule.
NickAtkins wrote: Seems i was mistaken with Calgar - wonder where on earth i picked up that idea.
At the risk of starting up the argument afresh you haven't proved they can Deepstrike, what you've actually done is cast doubt on whether (by RAW) Drop Pods are able to Deepstrike. Obviously no-one is actually going to argue that you can't Deepstrike with Drop Pods and you're using that to essentially blackmail other players into letting you play your Land Raiders the way you want to. The point of my previous posts is it's bad form to just turn up and expect other players to bow to your view on this rule.
It's fine if you stay classy. People are used to weird rules by now.
NickAtkins wrote: I think it's generally accepted that Drop Pods can deepstrike, in the same way that its generally accepted that Papa Smurf has powerfists despite them not actually being listed on his profile.
Taking the attitude "If you want your drop pods to be able to deepstrike then my landraiders can because the rule is similar" will make you sound like an obstinate rules lawyer to many people. It's a janky sounding rule and i think many people will (rightly) disagree with it, despite it being technically correct by RAW.
Again, not saying it's wrong by RAW, just that its the sort of thing that should probably be cleared with an opponent before putting it on the table, like so many things in 40k.
I agree.
Ofc I would never forbid my opponent to DS his pods even if we would not allow LRs to do so.
But it is undeniably raw to allow any deathwing unit to DS in said formation.
People also should keep in mind:
DSing Landraiders are still not that good, the more relevant units are Deathwing Characters without DS (Ezekiel, Azmodai and so forth).
Yeah Deepstriking Landraiders are still awful. Adding Ezekiel etc in is a greater buff though not extraordinary given how weak DW are in general. It is RaW that DW can DS and I see no reason to stop the dirty traitors from doing so.
axisofentropy wrote: FWIW, I emailed the Adepticon FAQ department and just got this reply:
Yes, the Land Raiders are allowed to enter play via deepstrike, they will scatter and potentially mishap as normal.
Regards,
Chris
so that helps anyone attending this event at least. See y'all in Chicago!
Bookmarking this forum thanks alot everyone for hashing this out. Hopefully there is some clarity with the rules however, I will use this site as my source when making a deathwing build. Happy hunting.
