I know this has been discussed before, but I was wondering if anyone has found a clever way to use the HRR? I've heard the HYMP (High Yield Missle Pod) outclasses it in most situations, but the HRR must have a use... Right?

Nope. High Yield Missile pod has a much higher chance of actually killing any vehicle in the game except av 14 or 15 due to the rate of fire, with the rail rifle your only hope is an explode result to get the same effect.

Unfortunatly, the HYMP is superior in all but the most specific cases (T4, out of cover and no invul, at 3+ save and at least 3 wounds, or 2+ save and at least two wounds-any cover or invul renders the HRR inferior even against these. technically HRR is also better against AV14, but it dose so little I don't even count it.)


HRR needs an upgrade. (all rail weapons do, but HRR the most)

And the range difference doesnt help?

The HRR has a _tremendous_ threat range, but obviously its relevance depends on the side of the board that you use.

Ranged Support Cadre is phenomenal with it.

Typically, your riptides will cover the long distance targets. You can use your broadsides for mid range threats.

There is no use. They suck as weapons.

When you have access to Riptides and Plasma/Fusion Crisis Suits the HRR doesn't really serve much of a purpose. Much better off cracking AV13/14 with Fusions, MCs are targets for either HYMP spam, plasmas, or the Riptide. Light vehicles are better off being spammed by HYMPs. In the few niche places that the HRR would be better than HYMP it can generally be handled by a more well rounded unit somewhere else in your army.

 samsonite207 wrote:
And the range difference doesnt help?

HYMP has more then enough range for most games. HRR's range advantage just doesn't do anything significant

 CrownAxe wrote:

 samsonite207 wrote:
And the range difference doesnt help?

HYMP has more then enough range for most games. HRR's range advantage just doesn't do anything significant

As a matter of fact, due to table size limits, anything beyond 48" is hardly relevant. Add the fact that while using the long range you are not using the secondary the cases where the range helps are so rare it's irrelevant in comparison to the superior damage output of the HYMP.

In a perfect setup, on a 4 x 6 table, the HRR would be set up in a corner on a cliff or tall building overlooking a valley with little LOS blocking terrain, in which case it could take pot shots at anything and be immune to retaliation by anything on the far third of the table. Including incoming reserves coming in from anywhere if it has EWO.

I fully admit that this is a fringe case and my Broadsides are HRRs because they look friggin' cool.

Yeah, that's why I use them too. I guess I was hoping beyond hope that there was an actual use for them. Ah well, I suppose tau are powerful I could use the handicap, haha

 samsonite207 wrote:
Yeah, that's why I use them too. I guess I was hoping beyond hope that there was an actual use for them. Ah well, I suppose tau are powerful I could use the handicap, haha

Well there is a use (as mentioned, there are a couple). It's just not a big use on the standard size table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Get your opponent to agree to setting up 6" apart and things will be very different.

Personally when I use them I use them as basically sniper rifles. Take 3 Broadsides in a team, give each HRR and SMS (or if you're going up against a TEQ heavy army like Grey Knights and have the points, give them PRs for extra AP2), give them each an ATS, take a Shas'vre, and just go to town. Oh, nice special and heavy weapons you have there space marines, be a shame if I sniped it out with no saves for you. Nice Priest in that guard blob, be a shame if he were to suddenly disappear. Up to 60" you can precision shot big weapons and characters out of their meatshield squads (not a lot in this game outside of MCs and vehicles that isn't scared of S8 AP1) and at 30" and closer you use SMS to clear up the meatshields so your HRR can take out the real threats.

Gone are the days of HRRs popping tanks left and right. Until vehicle rules change, they aren't coming back. Leave that to the HYMP. The HRR has a new role in 7th. It's a sniper rifle. A TL, 60", S8 AP1 sniper rifle that will ensure that anything of value below T5 either has an invuln save or is cowering inside transport.

The shas'vre trick does not work for a very long time now, character with ATS do not precision on 5s any more, no reason to vre a broadside.

It's not the worst thing in the world but each HRR has 1/4 the shots of a HYMP, which is kind of rough. If the HRR had two shots instead of one, or had a submunition option of some sort it would be a much harder choice, but as is the HYMP will glance most things to death more consistently, which is unfortunate since I really like the HRR model.

The HRR is in the same place as the lascannon: the toilet.

Ironically, railsides show up missilesides in a mirror match. Just deploy so the railsides will be >37" away and start hunting. Unfortunately, the likelihood of the opposition tau not having an IA Riptide is small, so you can kiss the railsides goodbye unless the scatter is unkind.

One thing to say for railsides with ats though, they're not terrible when picking on invisible units since they're twin linked and need 6's to activate precision hits anyway, and many characters get doubled out at str 8. Still, look out sir is a thing, so that takes away a lot of the fun.

 Drasius wrote:
Ironically, railsides show up missilesides in a mirror match. Just deploy so the railsides will be >37" away and start hunting. Unfortunately, the likelihood of the opposition tau not having an IA Riptide is small, so you can kiss the railsides goodbye unless the scatter is unkind.

One thing to say for railsides with ats though, they're not terrible when picking on invisible units since they're twin linked and need 6's to activate precision hits anyway, and many characters get doubled out at str 8. Still, look out sir is a thing, so that takes away a lot of the fun.

You can't perscision shot if you are snap firing

Ah, forgot about that. Oh well, at least itc people can still do it (it is them that changed invis to force bs1 instead of snap shot isn't it?)

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
Ironically, railsides show up missilesides in a mirror match. Just deploy so the railsides will be >37" away and start hunting. Unfortunately, the likelihood of the opposition tau not having an IA Riptide is small, so you can kiss the railsides goodbye unless the scatter is unkind.

One thing to say for railsides with ats though, they're not terrible when picking on invisible units since they're twin linked and need 6's to activate precision hits anyway, and many characters get doubled out at str 8. Still, look out sir is a thing, so that takes away a lot of the fun.

You can't perscision shot if you are snap firing

In all ITC ruled games you can

AFAIK ITC never changed that rule, and I doubt they did as it would have been really silly to outright change a rule (there us no debate, it's clearly written in BRB) when it never caused any issues to begin with.

 BoomWolf wrote:
AFAIK ITC never changed that rule, and I doubt they did as it would have been really silly to outright change a rule (there us no debate, it's clearly written in BRB) when it never caused any issues to begin with.

Well they changed invisibility so that it's BS 1 instead of snap firing, so you should still be able to cause a precision shot on an invisible unit.

Well three HRR broadsides with advanced targeting systems still have a non-inconsiderable chance of a precision shot.

Guys, stop, the ITC doesn't have a ruling on snap firing and precision shots, so there's no reason to assume it goes one way or another. If you really want an answer to the matter, well then write to them and they'll provide and answer or an FAQ, they aren't GW, and they don't want their rules to be overly vague, so just ask them.

 Tinkrr wrote:
Guys, stop, the ITC doesn't have a ruling on snap firing and precision shots, so there's no reason to assume it goes one way or another. If you really want an answer to the matter, well then write to them and they'll provide and answer or an FAQ, they aren't GW, and they don't want their rules to be overly vague, so just ask them.

This isn't an issue with Snap Firing and Precision Shots, that's clearly defined in the rule book. This is an issue with ITC's ruling of Invisibility and Precision Shots. Invisibility does not cause Snap Firing at their events, it reduces your BS to 1 theoretically allowing you to pick your target in an invisible unit when you hit on 6's.

So that every hit with a precision shot weapon is a precision hit.

So, i really like to bring 2 misslesides and 2 railsides. I like to give the railsides skyfire and go hunting. They pretty much always make up their points by taking down a flyer or 2 and things like terminators or anything else with good armor.

Broadsides are surprisingly resilient so, even if they dont kill all that much they still absorb a lot more fire than they probably should be able to.

 samsonite207 wrote:
I know this has been discussed before, but I was wondering if anyone has found a clever way to use the HRR? I've heard the HYMP (High Yield Missle Pod) outclasses it in most situations, but the HRR must have a use... Right?

It is the better weapon for use when you null deploy. You need the range because in null deployment you would have a Broadside and a couple shield drones, one to each corner in cover and firing to start the game. The longer range really pays off from those disparate corners. I like TL plasma to go with the Railgun.

High Yield are better in more conventional deploymentsas long as they don't get clumped to just one side which usually means bringing two units of them. Never a bad idea but its a drain for sure so just something to consider. Probably still worth taking two. their areas of overlapping fire are pretty tasty.

Hm. That's an interesting point.

Null-deployment, however, can be not all that great cause you can get hopelessly behind on maelstorm even if you're 1 turn off the table. But that's another discussion.

 koooaei wrote:
Hm. That's an interesting point.

Null-deployment, however, can be not all that great cause you can get hopelessly behind on maelstorm even if you're 1 turn off the table. But that's another discussion.

Maelstrom will require more to be deployed perhaps. Depends on the mission. Maelstrom is definitely to be considered. I'm not sure there will be an ocean of gap between your points if you deploy your force well. Realisticlly there are often only three objectives you can reasonably expect to get to and take in turn one, so some of that threat is imagined more than real. But yes, I agree, Maelstrom may require an infiltrator or two to join the party

If you face something like eldar, dark eldar, harlequins, dark angels, white scars, KDK, infiltration lists like Huron/Ahriman CSM or mass scouts, skyhammer...you can expect them to take over the field turn one. Either with fast flat-outs or scout + fast flat-outs. Heck, even orks with flat-outs will cover 2/3 of the board in one go.

So, in many cases null-deployment is not an option. Basically, in almost every mission other than ascending objectives you'll find it difficult to catch up on points without a very succsessful emidiate obliteration of most of the enemy forces. Which is not guaranteed.

Not to say it's completely useless or something, but null-deployment has been a very rare thing to work effectively since maelstorm was introduced. Cause it's the rise of fast tough jinking armies which are in turn hard to kill in one go to boot.

 koooaei wrote:
If you face something like eldar, dark eldar, harlequins, dark angels, white scars, KDK, infiltration lists like Huron/Ahriman CSM or mass scouts, skyhammer...you can expect them to take over the field turn one. Either with fast flat-outs or scout + fast flat-outs. Heck, even orks with flat-outs will cover 2/3 of the board in one go.

So, in many cases null-deployment is not an option. Basically, in almost every mission other than ascending objectives you'll find it difficult to catch up on points without a very succsessful emidiate obliteration of most of the enemy forces. Which is not guaranteed.

Not to say it's completely useless or something, but null-deployment has been a very rare thing to work effectively since maelstorm was introduced. Cause it's the rise of fast tough jinking armies which are in turn hard to kill in one go to boot.

This is actually one of the biggest reasons why I've been saying that the Mont'ka formation, the "Ranged Support Cadre" is really quite the overlooked gem for the Tau.
3x Infiltrating, Scouting, and Shrouded Pathfinders.
3x units of Broadsides that can Overwatch as far as the range for their weapon is and double up the number of Markerlight counters when firing at targets the Pathfinders from the formation have marked.

You're looking at 585 base for 9 Broadsides, with HRRs and SMS, that can overwatch at 60".
And 132 points for 3 units of minimum Pathfinders that can be placed in ruins/cover simply to be annoying at the start of the game with Infiltration and Shrouded.

It is a pretty nasty thing for an army that decides to make a charge against the Pathfinders.

 koooaei wrote:
If you face something like eldar, dark eldar, harlequins, dark angels, white scars, KDK, infiltration lists like Huron/Ahriman CSM or mass scouts, skyhammer...you can expect them to take over the field turn one. Either with fast flat-outs or scout + fast flat-outs. Heck, even orks with flat-outs will cover 2/3 of the board in one go.

So, in many cases null-deployment is not an option. Basically, in almost every mission other than ascending objectives you'll find it difficult to catch up on points without a very succsessful emidiate obliteration of most of the enemy forces. Which is not guaranteed.

Not to say it's completely useless or something, but null-deployment has been a very rare thing to work effectively since maelstorm was introduced. Cause it's the rise of fast tough jinking armies which are in turn hard to kill in one go to boot.

Well, I think you might not be entirely appreciating that if the enemy did this, it would be good for me. I WANT them to come to me when Null deploying. Thats' the purpose.

The thing about the HRR range vs the HYMP is 36" is still a huge chunk of the board. Yeah, HYMP wont reach the backfield light vehicle thats spitting out table-long templates, but thats what the random Crisis suit deepstriker is for. HYMP will never have nothing to shoot at, and if they dont somehow then you already won.

They shouldnt be S10, that much is obvious since they were ludicrously OP against anything that isnt hordes. Bringing armor against Tau was a deathwish before this change, since every tau player had 3-6 of these things and probably a Hammerhead too. But what theyre at now is terrible.

Only time i'd rather a railrifle over hymp is against multiwound 2+ armor, since odds are the insane dakka output isnt going to get through that reliably. But thats rare as hell.

Its a strategic take, not a unit thing.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The thing about the HRR range vs the HYMP is 36" is still a huge chunk of the board. Yeah, HYMP wont reach the backfield light vehicle thats spitting out table-long templates, but thats what the random Crisis suit deepstriker is for. HYMP will never have nothing to shoot at, and if they dont somehow then you already won.

They shouldnt be S10, that much is obvious since they were ludicrously OP against anything that isnt hordes. Bringing armor against Tau was a deathwish before this change, since every tau player had 3-6 of these things and probably a Hammerhead too. But what theyre at now is terrible.

Only time i'd rather a railrifle over hymp is against multiwound 2+ armor, since odds are the insane dakka output isnt going to get through that reliably. But thats rare as hell.

They should probably be S9 AP1, and the bigger one should be S or S10 AP1 Armorbane.

Are HRR still twin linked?

They are, but that doesnt mean much. HYMP are also twinlinked.

I wish Heavy Rail Rifles would cause D3 wounds on a To Wound of 6, and the Rail Gun be Str D without Deathblow. Real life rail weapons obliterate anything they hit, but they have several several minutes at best between reloads due to modern power generation. HYMP should be wrecking numbers, while Rails should be wrecking tough single models. Currently the HYMP can reliably strip health off everything the Rail isnt useless against better than it can splat them 9/10 of the time.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The thing about the HRR range vs the HYMP is 36" is still a huge chunk of the board. Yeah, HYMP wont reach the backfield light vehicle thats spitting out table-long templates, but thats what the random Crisis suit deepstriker is for. HYMP will never have nothing to shoot at, and if they dont somehow then you already won.

They shouldnt be S10, that much is obvious since they were ludicrously OP against anything that isnt hordes. Bringing armor against Tau was a deathwish before this change, since every tau player had 3-6 of these things and probably a Hammerhead too. But what theyre at now is terrible.

Only time i'd rather a railrifle over hymp is against multiwound 2+ armor, since odds are the insane dakka output isnt going to get through that reliably. But thats rare as hell.

They should probably be S9 AP1, and the bigger one should be S or S10 AP1 Armorbane.

Are HRR still twin linked?

S9 is probably the magic number for them. Can still double out t4, but not T5, strong enough to pop even AV14, but not overwhelming AV12.

 Jancoran wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
If you face something like eldar, dark eldar, harlequins, dark angels, white scars, KDK, infiltration lists like Huron/Ahriman CSM or mass scouts, skyhammer...you can expect them to take over the field turn one. Either with fast flat-outs or scout + fast flat-outs. Heck, even orks with flat-outs will cover 2/3 of the board in one go.

So, in many cases null-deployment is not an option. Basically, in almost every mission other than ascending objectives you'll find it difficult to catch up on points without a very succsessful emidiate obliteration of most of the enemy forces. Which is not guaranteed.

Not to say it's completely useless or something, but null-deployment has been a very rare thing to work effectively since maelstorm was introduced. Cause it's the rise of fast tough jinking armies which are in turn hard to kill in one go to boot.

Well, I think you might not be entirely appreciating that if the enemy did this, it would be good for me. I WANT them to come to me when Null deploying. Thats' the purpose.

In this case, it's a good strategy

It's just that i'd not expect to obliterate tougher targets with just alpha-strike. You don't ds turn 1, right? Than you'll also have problems against daemons.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Real life rail weapons obliterate anything they hit, .

They do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More so than, say, an explosive warhead?

 koooaei wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
If you face something like eldar, dark eldar, harlequins, dark angels, white scars, KDK, infiltration lists like Huron/Ahriman CSM or mass scouts, skyhammer...you can expect them to take over the field turn one. Either with fast flat-outs or scout + fast flat-outs. Heck, even orks with flat-outs will cover 2/3 of the board in one go.

So, in many cases null-deployment is not an option. Basically, in almost every mission other than ascending objectives you'll find it difficult to catch up on points without a very succsessful emidiate obliteration of most of the enemy forces. Which is not guaranteed.

Not to say it's completely useless or something, but null-deployment has been a very rare thing to work effectively since maelstorm was introduced. Cause it's the rise of fast tough jinking armies which are in turn hard to kill in one go to boot.

Well, I think you might not be entirely appreciating that if the enemy did this, it would be good for me. I WANT them to come to me when Null deploying. Thats' the purpose.

In this case, it's a good strategy

It's just that i'd not expect to obliterate tougher targets with just alpha-strike. You don't ds turn 1, right? Than you'll also have problems against daemons.

No turn 1 DS. I want to waste theenemy shooting for two rounds when I null deploy, and cost them more than they can afford to KEEP losing. To that end the Broadsides want to hide and go second (most fo the time, unless they have Raiders or something) and essentially let them come to me by turn two (because angles). I hope to then have them broken into more managable parts to dissectr with reserves.

I might be biased but 90% of my wins are based heavilly on maelstorm points. Sometimes i get just a few models left and the enemy has half his army and still can't catch up on VP for i've aggressively grabbed everything for the first part of the game.
And when the enemy null-deploys, it's even easier to go ahead on VP. Yes, he'll have better angles and overwhelming firepower. But would it be enough to obliterate my list fast enough?

 koooaei wrote:
I might be biased but 90% of my wins are based heavilly on maelstorm points. Sometimes i get just a few models left and the enemy has half his army and still can't catch up on VP for i've aggressively grabbed everything for the first part of the game.
And when the enemy null-deploys, it's even easier to go ahead on VP. Yes, he'll have better angles and overwhelming firepower. But would it be enough to obliterate my list fast enough?

Thats a question for the mision, terrain and general probably. Cant answer that across the board. Null Deployment isnt always the answer. But you have to have the tools in the tool bag in order TO do it WHEN it makes sense. Lacking them steals an opportunity from you.

Maelstrom is a very bloody affair so If its the mision where you get increasing numbers of cards, null deploy works fine. It will be bad on misions where the number of cards declines or is based on objectives conrtrolled. Its a toss up on other missions. Just depends on how well you placed objectives nd also whether you're using like BAO rules whee you have to control stuff til the end of both player turns.

Theres a lot of if's in there. This is a judgement call thing. But to answer the original posters question, it gives you a great tool for null deployment.

We play it in a way that you place objectives first and than roll for sides. So that you can't guarantee that you'll get easy objectives in your deployment zone.

as do we, but that doesnt mean you cant set your objectives up to accomodate your wish to null deploy.

For example, placing them closer to long board edges and far apart nearest to LOS blocking terrain would make the most sense, for example, if you think null deploying is the way to go. No guarantees there but its the best placement for that kind of deployment.

Alcibiades wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Real life rail weapons obliterate anything they hit, .

They do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More so than, say, an explosive warhead?

Not really, a rail weapon is just something that uses electricity to propel an object instead of combustion. You can even make a Coilgun at home which functions like a rail gun, but it'd be worse than a regular gun by a good margin.

An area that I have seen some success with HRR is in the Retaliation Cadre. Now you have a unit of relentless broadsides that are deepstriking.

A unit composition that I have found effective is
2 HYMP, 2 plasma, 2 Target Locks
1 HRR, plasma

Essentially deepstriking behind enemy armor allows a nice av10-11 sweetspot for the HRR. If in the DBC you have possible reroll pens.. or if you have a buffmander or roll a warlord trait on FSE to get MC or tank hunter.

If you don't have AV targets the HYMP give you enough RoF to take out meat before you fire the HRR to take out that character hiding in the back of a unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One thing that I want to mention.. is that with the new Tau options.. there are other units that fill the roll the Missleside used to in scenario based better way.

For example. A crisis suit with dual CIBs is only 52 points. Produces 6 s7 shots.. or 2 s8 blasts. They are relentless, can deepstrike and JSJ.. which is very powerful in the faster movement games we have now.. and objectives.

Another option is the Ghostkeel. 130 points for a CIR 6 s7 shots 1 s8 L.blast.. also a flamer secondary and loads of special rules that make it a much harder unit to take down than a broadside.

Both of these units thus filling the HYMP roll.. give you more room to experiment with HRR units.

 Tinkrr wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Real life rail weapons obliterate anything they hit, .

They do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More so than, say, an explosive warhead?

Not really, a rail weapon is just something that uses electricity to propel an object instead of combustion. You can even make a Coilgun at home which functions like a rail gun, but it'd be worse than a regular gun by a good margin.

The point of a railgun is not explosion or combustion. The point is a railgun can fire a round much faster than a normal missile/warhead and can penetrate much much further as well

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Real life rail weapons obliterate anything they hit, .

They do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More so than, say, an explosive warhead?

Not really, a rail weapon is just something that uses electricity to propel an object instead of combustion. You can even make a Coilgun at home which functions like a rail gun, but it'd be worse than a regular gun by a good margin.

The point of a railgun is not explosion or combustion. The point is a railgun can fire a round much faster than a normal missile/warhead and can penetrate much much further as well

Incorrect. The point of a railgun is to transfer more energy upon impact than conventional chemical propellant projectiles. Some advantages are longer range, flatter trajectory, and reduce chance of crew deaths due to explosive propellant cooking off. The energy transfer will also remove the need for an explosive charge in the projectile, and will avoid the use of contaminating materials such as depleted uranium.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Real life rail weapons obliterate anything they hit, .

They do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More so than, say, an explosive warhead?

Not really, a rail weapon is just something that uses electricity to propel an object instead of combustion. You can even make a Coilgun at home which functions like a rail gun, but it'd be worse than a regular gun by a good margin.

The point of a railgun is not explosion or combustion. The point is a railgun can fire a round much faster than a normal missile/warhead and can penetrate much much further as well

Incorrect. The point of a railgun is to transfer more energy upon impact than conventional chemical propellant projectiles. Some advantages are longer range, flatter trajectory, and reduce chance of crew deaths due to explosive propellant cooking off. The energy transfer will also remove the need for an explosive charge in the projectile, and will avoid the use of contaminating materials such as depleted uranium.

SJ

Look up info on railguns and tell me anything I said was incorrect:
Railgun projectiles are faster
No explosion
Greater Penetration

you are, in fact, correct.

If you've ever seen a railgun hit a target, you know the impact is explosive and incendiary.

SJ

The idea behind the terminal physics on a railgun isn't super-penetration. While they are capable of that with a sufficiently dense slug, poking a small hole into something like a battleship is not that useful. Railgun slugs are instead intended to strike with a kinetic energy that beyond the vaporization point of material of the slug, causing to effectively "flash boil" (technically, it turns to plasma). This phase change release vast amounts of energy as heat that the resulting plasma will burn through pretty much anything, while still carrying enough forward kinetic energy (and air turbulence behind it) to push/pull it thought the initial impact point.
It's the same concept that most anti-tank weapons operate on, but they do so with conventional explosives to deform the metals, and usually use copper since they are working at much lower energies.
That's why the Navy thinks that a 10lb chunk of tungsten fired 230 miles with be as effective as a cruise missile with several hundred lbs of explosives, or why dropping a metal rod from orbit would be considered a WMD on part with tactical nukes: you are relying on the same basic physics behind meteor impacts.

maceria wrote:
The idea behind the terminal physics on a railgun isn't super-penetration. While they are capable of that with a sufficiently dense slug, poking a small hole into something like a battleship is not that useful. Railgun slugs are instead intended to strike with a kinetic energy that beyond the vaporization point of material of the slug, causing to effectively "flash boil" (technically, it turns to plasma). This phase change release vast amounts of energy as heat that the resulting plasma will burn through pretty much anything, while still carrying enough forward kinetic energy (and air turbulence behind it) to push/pull it thought the initial impact point.
It's the same concept that most anti-tank weapons operate on, but they do so with conventional explosives to deform the metals, and usually use copper since they are working at much lower energies.
That's why the Navy thinks that a 10lb chunk of tungsten fired 230 miles with be as effective as a cruise missile with several hundred lbs of explosives, or why dropping a metal rod from orbit would be considered a WMD on part with tactical nukes: you are relying on the same basic physics behind meteor impacts.

Yep. Spot on.

SJ

We aren't talking about a real life rail gun though, we are talking about a tau fluff gun. Where it is described to be traveling so fast that itll pierce just about anything and the effect that creates all the damage is the vacuum it creates behind it. Similar to the way a .50cal sniper rifle doesnt have to actually make contact with a person to do damage, if you fire it within a few feet of a person the propulsion will still rip skin,clothes and somethines muscle off the bone.

They are not meant to be like an explosive, in fluff.

 Wolfnid420 wrote:
We aren't talking about a real life rail gun though, we are talking about a tau fluff gun. Where it is described to be traveling so fast that itll pierce just about anything and the effect that creates all the damage is the vacuum it creates behind it. Similar to the way a .50cal sniper rifle doesnt have to actually make contact with a person to do damage, if you fire it within a few feet of a person the propulsion will still rip skin,clothes and somethines muscle off the bone.

They are not meant to be like an explosive, in fluff.

That would be the AP1 and low rate of fire.

SJ

Did rail rifles every used to be "beam weapons" I feel like that would be more in line with the fluff and up their use on the tabletop at the same time.

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Did rail rifles every used to be "beam weapons" I feel like that would be more in line with the fluff and up their use on the tabletop at the same time.

They never have been, it's something I've been saying for a long time though.

 Wolfnid420 wrote:
a .50cal sniper rifle doesnt have to actually make contact with a person to do damage, if you fire it within a few feet of a person the propulsion will still rip skin,clothes and somethines muscle off the bone.

Somewhat off topic, but motherhell this is the dumbest, wrongest thing in the entire world. Stop having bad info, internet.

As for rail weapons, I had a suggestion

 raverrn wrote:

 Wolfnid420 wrote:
a .50cal sniper rifle doesnt have to actually make contact with a person to do damage, if you fire it within a few feet of a person the propulsion will still rip skin,clothes and somethines muscle off the bone.

Somewhat off topic, but motherhell this is the dumbest, wrongest thing in the entire world. Stop having bad info, internet.

I don't know where this myth came from from, but you really do have to hit someone with a .50 cal to kill someone. Or at least something near them that will spray them with shrapnel.

Back on topic, I've used HRR with plasma as elites hunters to good effect. Old codex I would use stabilizers so they could move and shoot, and hunt TEQ and MC. With 6e+ codex, I just let the move and snap shoot, and back them up with ML if needed. For support system either intercept or shields or stims. They move slow, but are still great for lane control and for highly built up areas.

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Real life rail weapons obliterate anything they hit, .

They do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More so than, say, an explosive warhead?

Not really, a rail weapon is just something that uses electricity to propel an object instead of combustion. You can even make a Coilgun at home which functions like a rail gun, but it'd be worse than a regular gun by a good margin.

The point of a railgun is not explosion or combustion. The point is a railgun can fire a round much faster than a normal missile/warhead and can penetrate much much further as well

I'm not a military/weapons guy, but my intense research aka reading of wikipedia tells me that the military is interested in railguns not because of killing power, but because rail rounds would be less expensive than missiles as they do not require an engine or explosives..

Alcibiades wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Real life rail weapons obliterate anything they hit, .

They do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More so than, say, an explosive warhead?

Not really, a rail weapon is just something that uses electricity to propel an object instead of combustion. You can even make a Coilgun at home which functions like a rail gun, but it'd be worse than a regular gun by a good margin.

The point of a railgun is not explosion or combustion. The point is a railgun can fire a round much faster than a normal missile/warhead and can penetrate much much further as well

I'm not a military/weapons guy, but my intense research aka reading of wikipedia tells me that the military is interested in railguns not because of killing power, but because rail rounds would be less expensive than missiles as they do not require an engine or explosives..

Those are all advantages: no powder magazine on a ship, cheaper rounds, faster/farther flight, more energetic impacts, etc.

Also, a coil gun functions nothing like a rail gun except they both use electricity.

Alcibiades wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Real life rail weapons obliterate anything they hit, .

They do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More so than, say, an explosive warhead?

Not really, a rail weapon is just something that uses electricity to propel an object instead of combustion. You can even make a Coilgun at home which functions like a rail gun, but it'd be worse than a regular gun by a good margin.

The point of a railgun is not explosion or combustion. The point is a railgun can fire a round much faster than a normal missile/warhead and can penetrate much much further as well

I'm not a military/weapons guy, but my intense research aka reading of wikipedia tells me that the military is interested in railguns not because of killing power, but because rail rounds would be less expensive than missiles as they do not require an engine or explosives..

Yes, and their current weapnized lasers are from a decades long project to again do the same thing - cheaper ammunition. The laser they just put into service costs about $1.20 per shot/use, as apposed to a comparable $1000.00 solid shot or $100,000.00 missile.

SJ

As an EE major I always wanted to work on a Gatling Gun style of compact rail/coil weapon, where the charge rate for each barrel was short enough to output a slug fast enough to have the primary rail charged by the time it rotated back around, mostly by use of many small rails in a compacted way and even back up capacitors.

The real issue with rail weapons is the conversion rate between electrical energy to kinetic is extremely low, and there's still a period of time to charge the capacitor banks, though the ladder can be worked on beyond weapons, since battery and charge fields are basically one of the three primary fields of EE.

Instead I'm working on a coffee maker CMM D:

I mostly work with plasma for metal vapor deposition, but have made solenoid guns as a hobby, as well as a laser guilded electron gun back in highschool (think of it as a wireless teaser, a decade before teasers). In the military, I worked on ground to air missiles (HAWK missile system). Also do blackpowder rifles for hunting and competition shooting, and use to fight sword'n'board in the SCA (Roman style, wall shield with short sword). Been tabletop war gaming for over 30 years. Not epeening, just stating where my opinion on the subject originates.

SJ

I didnt believe it either but my Marine buddy who says he saw it in action, begs to differ. I told him he was full of gak, and he said what I'll say to you guys." you don't have to believe me,"


Anywho, done with that. I'm a huge fan of HRR, I also believe they should be s9, but they will almost always have a spot in my list as AA unless Im told ahead of time that they wont be bringing any air support. They always make their points back by the end of the game

 Wolfnid420 wrote:
I didnt believe it either but my Marine buddy who says he saw it in action, begs to differ. I told him he was full of gak, and he said what I'll say to you guys." you don't have to believe me,"


Anywho, done with that. I'm a huge fan of HRR, I also believe they should be s9, but they will almost always have a spot in my list as AA unless Im told ahead of time that they wont be bringing any air support. They always make their points back by the end of the game

I'm ambivalent about this. On one hand it's list tailoring, which I'm never cool with. On the other hand it's bad list tailoring. So, uh..

Go get 'em champ?

Actually, it makes sence as a dedicated AA gun with some ground punch. Range is a good thing for AA.

People act like planes can avoid a 36" threat with ease. How many times does a plane actually avoid such a huge threat area (unless you have them in the corner of the map for some reason, which is bad on all accounts for an immobile unit) and still find viable targets for their guns?

Every time a plane dodges my AA power, the worst they do is take out some troops or pathfinders because the angles on their guns prevents them from hitting my suits/vehicles.

Playing apoc ok i could understand that then, larger table 36" becomes kinda moot.

Flyers have trouble avoiding 24" range weapons, let alone 36" range weapons.

SJ

 koooaei wrote:
Actually, it makes sence as a dedicated AA gun with some ground punch. Range is a good thing for AA.

What everyone else said. Deployed centrally, 36" range is the majority of the board! There's exactly one cornercase - the Crimson Hunter hovering on the edge of the board - but seeing as he'll murder your Broadside team the turn he comes in even the performance THERE is the same.

If you're real worried about AA, take Ghostkeels. Not only do they have room for Interceptor AND Skyfire, but can get ignores cover naturally.

Dploying centrally is not always a good option. It's good when you can afford to deploy anywhere rather than just centrally.

 raverrn wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Actually, it makes sence as a dedicated AA gun with some ground punch. Range is a good thing for AA.

What everyone else said. Deployed centrally, 36" range is the majority of the board! There's exactly one cornercase - the Crimson Hunter hovering on the edge of the board - but seeing as he'll murder your Broadside team the turn he comes in even the performance THERE is the same.

If you're real worried about AA, take Ghostkeels. Not only do they have room for Interceptor AND Skyfire, but can get ignores cover naturally.

Ignoring cover ability does not work with interceptor

Right, putting EWO on your Ghostkeels in the OSC is actually hurting them not helping. Mirrors only work in the shooting phase, so if you intercept they dont get +1bs, ignore cover, or hit rear armor.

IS that how it works? when does it wear off? at the end of my turn or at the beginning of my next turn? i dont have the book on hand ATM.

"for that shooting phase" its in the middle of the paragraph. Start of their shooting phase you declare Mirrors are active or not, and its gone at the end of the phase. Prevents interceptor/overwatch from benefiting from it.

it also enables you to NOT use it in case an IK puts his shield on his ass. Hit his AV13 face...yeah you dont get +1BS and its on a slightly higher AV but he has no 4++ so its still better.

To be fair, EWO is a really weird piece of gear, since it has the drawbacks people have mentioned, but also has the benefit of taking away potential fire power in a sort of alpha strike. It's really a situation based thing, as sometimes it's better to have weaker shooting, but take out new things to survive, than to have stronger shooting but not have as much left.

 Tinkrr wrote:
To be fair, EWO is a really weird piece of gear, since it has the drawbacks people have mentioned, but also has the benefit of taking away potential fire power in a sort of alpha strike. It's really a situation based thing, as sometimes it's better to have weaker shooting, but take out new things to survive, than to have stronger shooting but not have as much left.

In other words, its balanced.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
To be fair, EWO is a really weird piece of gear, since it has the drawbacks people have mentioned, but also has the benefit of taking away potential fire power in a sort of alpha strike. It's really a situation based thing, as sometimes it's better to have weaker shooting, but take out new things to survive, than to have stronger shooting but not have as much left.

In other words, its balanced.

Well yea, decision making during the game is always good.

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
To be fair, EWO is a really weird piece of gear, since it has the drawbacks people have mentioned, but also has the benefit of taking away potential fire power in a sort of alpha strike. It's really a situation based thing, as sometimes it's better to have weaker shooting, but take out new things to survive, than to have stronger shooting but not have as much left.

In other words, its balanced.

Well yea, decision making during the game is always good.

No, that means it's garbage. If it isn't an instant win button it's garbage.

Deploying centrally generally means deploying closer to the enemy than necessary, which is generally bad for a shooting unit with poor melee ability.

maceria wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
To be fair, EWO is a really weird piece of gear, since it has the drawbacks people have mentioned, but also has the benefit of taking away potential fire power in a sort of alpha strike. It's really a situation based thing, as sometimes it's better to have weaker shooting, but take out new things to survive, than to have stronger shooting but not have as much left.

In other words, its balanced.

Well yea, decision making during the game is always good.

No, that means it's garbage. If it isn't an instant win button it's garbage.

I assume you're joking. Hard to tell on forums.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alcibiades wrote:
Deploying centrally generally means deploying closer to the enemy than necessary, which is generally bad for a shooting unit with poor melee ability.

I agree, Turning the flank with heavy firepower works really well because of the "closest model" thing. Broadsides aren't as good as once they were. I think the Gunrigs will more than adequately replace an entire unit of them and then some. I like those gun rigs man.

maceria wrote:

No, that means it's garbage. If it isn't an instant win button it's garbage.

So true XD

But The HRR outperforms the HYMP in 2 areas, targeting anymodel with a 2+ save, and targeting anything with 8+ toughness and a 3+ save. The HRR is indeed designed to kill High Armor Infantry 2+ Save 4+ Toughness and that is where it accels. Only one tau unit config is better at removing them point for point, and that is a Crisis Suit with plasma+TLplasma and the difference in damage only slightly favors the CS, inflicting on average 2.083 wounds compared to a Broadside's 1.875, When you factor in the Broadsides armor and range along with the TL and giving him precision I really prefer the Broadside for taking out termies and the like.

So in short, Broadsides are optimally used against models with 2+ save.

 SaJeel wrote:

maceria wrote:

No, that means it's garbage. If it isn't an instant win button it's garbage.

So true XD

But The HRR outperforms the HYMP in 2 areas, targeting anymodel with a 2+ save, and targeting anything with 8+ toughness and a 3+ save. The HRR is indeed designed to kill High Armor Infantry 2+ Save 4+ Toughness and that is where it accels. Only one tau unit config is better at removing them point for point, and that is a Crisis Suit with plasma+TLplasma and the difference in damage only slightly favors the CS, inflicting on average 2.083 wounds compared to a Broadside's 1.875, When you factor in the Broadsides armor and range along with the TL and giving him precision I really prefer the Broadside for taking out termies and the like.

So in short, Broadsides are optimally used against models with 2+ save.

The only problem being there are many better choices for dealing with specifically 2+ Armor saves that also manage to deal with other threats as well. Making taking a unit that excels only at that one thing rather silly.

 raverrn wrote:

 SaJeel wrote:

maceria wrote:

No, that means it's garbage. If it isn't an instant win button it's garbage.

So true XD

But The HRR outperforms the HYMP in 2 areas, targeting anymodel with a 2+ save, and targeting anything with 8+ toughness and a 3+ save. The HRR is indeed designed to kill High Armor Infantry 2+ Save 4+ Toughness and that is where it accels. Only one tau unit config is better at removing them point for point, and that is a Crisis Suit with plasma+TLplasma and the difference in damage only slightly favors the CS, inflicting on average 2.083 wounds compared to a Broadside's 1.875, When you factor in the Broadsides armor and range along with the TL and giving him precision I really prefer the Broadside for taking out termies and the like.

So in short, Broadsides are optimally used against models with 2+ save.

The only problem being there are many better choices for dealing with specifically 2+ Armor saves that also manage to deal with other threats as well. Making taking a unit that excels only at that one thing rather silly.

Exactly. I would rather have a IA riptide rather than 3 Railsides

Even against 2+ armor, HYMP wins, as they almost always have invul backup, and even when not cover is still a thing.

When you look at the stats, as I have said before, The only thing better suited for killing 2+ armor point for point, is a crisis suit with 2 plasma, one being twinlinked being roughly 10% more effective, everything else, from riptides to hammerheads are weaker at removing 2+ armor.

Against 2+ armor HYMP loses, at best it ties, HYMP are not better at removing 2+ armor than HRR, I've done the math many times

 SaJeel wrote:
When you look at the stats, as I have said before, The only thing better suited for killing 2+ armor point for point, is a crisis suit with 2 plasma, one being twinlinked being roughly 10% more effective, everything else, from riptides to hammerheads are weaker at removing 2+ armor.

Against 2+ armor HYMP loses, at best it ties, HYMP are not better at removing 2+ armor than HRR, I've done the math many times

I beg to differ about riptides. 1 IA Riptide will do WAY more damage than 3 HRR broadsides against 2+ armor

 SaJeel wrote:
When you look at the stats, as I have said before, The only thing better suited for killing 2+ armor point for point, is a crisis suit with 2 plasma, one being twinlinked being roughly 10% more effective, everything else, from riptides to hammerheads are weaker at removing 2+ armor.

Against 2+ armor HYMP loses, at best it ties, HYMP are not better at removing 2+ armor than HRR, I've done the math many times

It is true that HRR is better against 2+ saves, but when there is an invulnerable save in play (which is usually) that changes. Against TEQ with a 5++ HRRs and HYMPs perform about the same as far as damage outpout goes..

Now if the target is a 2+ multiwound T4 model (MANZ) the HRR is better across the board.

 SaJeel wrote:
When you look at the stats, as I have said before, The only thing better suited for killing 2+ armor point for point, is a crisis suit with 2 plasma, one being twinlinked being roughly 10% more effective, everything else, from riptides to hammerheads are weaker at removing 2+ armor.

Against 2+ armor HYMP loses, at best it ties, HYMP are not better at removing 2+ armor than HRR, I've done the math many times

What stats are you looking at? How many 2+ without invul you see in play? Centurions are the only that comes to mind.
And then you still ignore the realities of the game and assume no cover for such a unit.

The scenarios where the HRR is actually better are rare and unlikely, in fact the scenarios where it's even halfway decent are rare and unlikely.

And that's a shame as I love the rail thematics, and hate the macross HYMP.

 Jancoran wrote:

maceria wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
To be fair, EWO is a really weird piece of gear, since it has the drawbacks people have mentioned, but also has the benefit of taking away potential fire power in a sort of alpha strike. It's really a situation based thing, as sometimes it's better to have weaker shooting, but take out new things to survive, than to have stronger shooting but not have as much left.

In other words, its balanced.

Well yea, decision making during the game is always good.

No, that means it's garbage. If it isn't an instant win button it's garbage.

I assume you're joking. Hard to tell on forums.

Yes, very much so. The proliferation of "I win" buttons is my biggest gripe with this game. So, naturally, I love me some cost/benefit items.

Additionally, a Riptide is huge compared to Broadsides. This results in
a) Broadsides can hide much easier.
b) When Broadsides set up a firing lane, it's limited. This causes your opponent to weigh if they want to risk walking into that fire lane, and will influence how they move the forces, meaning you dictate the battlefield. Riptides just shoot anything anywhere, so your opponent is more likely to pay it no mind and move where they want to.

Some weapons can do their job without being fired, and there is a lot more to the game than points:damage ratios.

As a GK player, I pretty much ignore Riptides as low priority models, because they can't deal enough damage in one go to effect my plan. Markerlights, Firewarriors, and Pathfinders are high priority, followed by Crisis and Broadsides, then Riptides, then vehicles. For Tau, kill their Ballistic Skill > kill their army. Or at least that's how it was.

The new Ghostkeel is a pickle, as are the new high BS formations. The Stormsurge has the same priority as a Riotide. Normal target priorities still work, we just need to move more aggressively in turn 1 to make sure the rest of the game is more survivable.

SJ

I generally agree with you regarding the Stormsurge and its target priority with a notable exception. If you have units that the D missiles are going to be a big problem for, like Wraithknights, IKs, maybe fancy Land Raiders, etc., AND have a legitimate shot at killing the 'Surge in 1 turn, I'd point my guns that way. Otheriwse, 1 (admittedly devastating) pie plate per turn and a bunch of small arms fire probably isn't worth your time.

MilkmanAl wrote:
I generally agree with you regarding the Stormsurge and its target priority with a notable exception. If you have units that the D missiles are going to be a big problem for, like Wraithknights, IKs, maybe fancy Land Raiders, etc., AND have a legitimate shot at killing the 'Surge in 1 turn, I'd point my guns that way. Otheriwse, 1 (admittedly devastating) pie plate per turn and a bunch of small arms fire probably isn't worth your time.

In the Land of the D, MSU reigns supreme.

SJ

Which is why im confused even more about the increase in Tau squad sizes, specifically 9 crisis suits, and the new Fire Team rule lol. In a vacuum, our codex sounds like large units are best, but when you add in Formations and ID/D threats (ID from any form not just the rule) MSU becomes the ultimate tactic. I still say runing duo Cores in a Hunter Cont formation and just taking pure solo-suit squads that "behave" as a unit is insanely powerful, though ive never done it because that kinda breaks friendly-game levels lol.

Given that statement, im for HRRs doing multi-wounds since Tau really have no reliable anti-big thing killing power outside just overkill in dakka (which isnt cost effective at all). Not complaining, there should be a weakness, but since it takes out our best RoF unit to bring pseudo-D weapons i would be for it. Multiple broadside units are expensive, both points and $$$-wise lol.

I've had a success running a list that features Railsides as part of the new Firebase Support Cadre. They really shine in this formation in the Hunter Contingent because of the combined fire rule.
Getting tank hunters and monster hunters combined with the twin-linked nature of the HRR means you're punching MC's, TEC, and Vehicles right in the d!ck each turn.
Giving the riptide EWO lets him use 1 gun for interceptor but still lets him shoot the other gun for the firestorm rule.

Negating AP2 saves at a distance and rerolling hits and wounds/armor pen - with the chance to explode is something tau don't have outside of the Ion gun on the Riptide and perhaps the 1 shot on the Hammerhead.

You can argue that plasma and fusion Crisis suits are game for that but you need to be within a much closer range and probably need the buffmanders support.

HRRs in the new Firebase Support Cadre maybe need 2 marker lights to ignore cover.

I've even thought about giving them Advanced Targeting Systems for next to no points to turn them into death star snipers.

 BoomWolf wrote:


What stats are you looking at? How many 2+ without invul you see in play? Centurions are the only that comes to mind.

\

An HRR will instant death MANZ and other Broadsides and is much, much more effective against them than a HYMP. This is also the case against Crisis suits, although less so. So they're very good against other Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
using cover saves as an argument in a Tau debate is a little disengenuous, since you know that those can be removed

Not for free.

Problem with that is majority of the T4 multiwound models are either covered in ablative wounds (still dont get why you can LoS a precision shot) or are quite rare compared to the options the HYMP could kill. MANz, Crisis Suits, Broadsides, and Warriors are all i can think of outside HQs that are splattable by S8...and warriors really wouldnt even be on that list since 4+ armor (4 S7 AP4 shots will kill it long before 1 S8 AP1 would, since flopping 3 2+ wounds is nigh impossible compared to 1).

So, thought about rails. What if they had Fleshbane and Armourbane? Even wounds WK on 2s, but cant splat T5 models and can be used on Landraiders roughly about as reliably as before (if not a fraction better). Single shots should be dependable, and currently they are definitely NOT dependable.

Were they fleshbane armorbane? I'd spam them.
Assuming it will also mean the HH railgun will get buffed in comparison, so I might spam HH instead.


Alcibiades - cover saves are still relevant against tau. And marker used to ignore cover is one not used to buff BS.

As for the units you mentioned, MANZ are non threat at the moment, crisis suits will NEVER allow a stationary broadside LoS, and enemy broadsides will be either defended by drones, in cover on skyshields, in fortifications, etc. Never a clean shot unless your enemy is a fool.

Rail is indeed better for a handful of fringe cases, but they are too rare, too unlikely and too depending on your opponent to goof up to begin with.

Railsides are like stealth suits. We WANT to love them, but they are just not good enough. They need just a bit more to be on the "good enough" category, and then fluff tau players will flock to them.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Which is why im confused even more about the increase in Tau squad sizes, specifically 9 crisis suits, and the new Fire Team rule lol. In a vacuum, our codex sounds like large units are best, but when you add in Formations and ID/D threats (ID from any form not just the rule) MSU becomes the ultimate tactic. I still say runing duo Cores in a Hunter Cont formation and just taking pure solo-suit squads that "behave" as a unit is insanely powerful, though ive never done it because that kinda breaks friendly-game levels lol.

You've also got a dude who hands out ignores cover, twin linked and tank/moster hunter to his entire unit. That is a pretty significant reason to take a big unit. Alternatively, you don't have to waste a bunch of points on shas'vre's if you were running a farsight bomb now. Once you get shadowsun in there to hand out shrouded to everyone as well, eh, economies of scale is a thing and can be better than MSU in places. And with split fire interacting with co-ordinated firepower the way it does, you get more milage out of the few markerlights you will be bringing/have left while still decimating half the enemy army in 1 round of shooting.

Naaris wrote:
I've had a success running a list that features Railsides as part of the new Firebase Support Cadre. They really shine in this formation in the Hunter Contingent because of the combined fire rule.
Getting tank hunters and monster hunters combined with the twin-linked nature of the HRR means you're punching MC's, TEC, and Vehicles right in the d!ck each turn.

You do realise that the old FBSC handed out tank hunter to everyone anyway, right? And prefered enemy; marines? And that you didn't have to fire 3 expensive units at one target, thereby almost making target locks mandatory? Meaning you now can't take EWO on the 'sides? And even then, tank hunter on the missilesides was a better deal since they were lower strength?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Problem with that is majority of the T4 multiwound models are either covered in ablative wounds (still dont get why you can LoS a precision shot) or are quite rare compared to the options the HYMP could kill. MANz, Crisis Suits, Broadsides, and Warriors are all i can think of outside HQs that are splattable by S8...and warriors really wouldnt even be on that list since 4+ armor (4 S7 AP4 shots will kill it long before 1 S8 AP1 would, since flopping 3 2+ wounds is nigh impossible compared to 1).

So, thought about rails. What if they had Fleshbane and Armourbane? Even wounds WK on 2s, but cant splat T5 models and can be used on Landraiders roughly about as reliably as before (if not a fraction better). Single shots should be dependable, and currently they are definitely NOT dependable.

Too bad the OSC already made vehicles obsolete, otherwise armourbane rail rifles would've done that. 60" Str 8 AP1 armourbane on a 65 point model is insane. On average, you're penetrating a land raider, not to mention consigning the hammerhead to obsolecence even harder than it is already. Forget that noise. Fleshbane on the otherhand would only make them affect, hmmm, maybe half a dozen models that they don't already wound on a 2+? Wraithknight/lord, C'Tan, GUO, Talos/Cronos and I can't think of anything else with T7 or greater without going looking for them or naming forgeworld stuff. Shred would've been a better choice there I think, far, far more likely to come into effect and far more useful to up their reliability

 Kanluwen wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
If you face something like eldar, dark eldar, harlequins, dark angels, white scars, KDK, infiltration lists like Huron/Ahriman CSM or mass scouts, skyhammer...you can expect them to take over the field turn one. Either with fast flat-outs or scout + fast flat-outs. Heck, even orks with flat-outs will cover 2/3 of the board in one go.

So, in many cases null-deployment is not an option. Basically, in almost every mission other than ascending objectives you'll find it difficult to catch up on points without a very succsessful emidiate obliteration of most of the enemy forces. Which is not guaranteed.

Not to say it's completely useless or something, but null-deployment has been a very rare thing to work effectively since maelstorm was introduced. Cause it's the rise of fast tough jinking armies which are in turn hard to kill in one go to boot.

This is actually one of the biggest reasons why I've been saying that the Mont'ka formation, the "Ranged Support Cadre" is really quite the overlooked gem for the Tau.
3x Infiltrating, Scouting, and Shrouded Pathfinders.
3x units of Broadsides that can Overwatch as far as the range for their weapon is and double up the number of Markerlight counters when firing at targets the Pathfinders from the formation have marked.

You're looking at 585 base for 9 Broadsides, with HRRs and SMS, that can overwatch at 60".
And 132 points for 3 units of minimum Pathfinders that can be placed in ruins/cover simply to be annoying at the start of the game with Infiltration and Shrouded.

It is a pretty nasty thing for an army that decides to make a charge against the Pathfinders.

That's actually pretty nice. TBH the only other place I was looking at broadsides was the retaliation cadre cause they have relentless to help with the HYMP a bit more. The missiles would probably do better in that formation as well, but the HRR just looks better.

 n0t_u wrote:
That's actually pretty nice. TBH the only other place I was looking at broadsides was the retaliation cadre cause they have relentless to help with the HYMP a bit more. The missiles would probably do better in that formation as well, but the HRR just looks better.

I run 1 HRR with that group, all in all, I have the RoF when combined, but I have that ap1 which gives me a better chance to explode things randomly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to mention, take out the meat, and ID any T4 HQs in a squad

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
That's actually pretty nice. TBH the only other place I was looking at broadsides was the retaliation cadre cause they have relentless to help with the HYMP a bit more. The missiles would probably do better in that formation as well, but the HRR just looks better.

I run 1 HRR with that group, all in all, I have the RoF when combined, but I have that ap1 which gives me a better chance to explode things randomly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to mention, take out the meat, and ID any T4 HQs in a squad

I'm still extremely new to Tau so it's something I'll be learning as I go. But is it really worth taking the three with missiles and velocity or does mixing like that with the target lock on the HRR?

I just finished making my first list since the update today and will be a while before I can try it out but I tried to cover as many holes in it as I could and it just felt like in that formation, along with the optimised stealth cadre, that the best role for them with the relentless was the missiles as a midfield supporting unit. Which is a shame cause I like the look of the HRR I just couldn't fit it in a way that felt like it worked well.

 n0t_u wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
That's actually pretty nice. TBH the only other place I was looking at broadsides was the retaliation cadre cause they have relentless to help with the HYMP a bit more. The missiles would probably do better in that formation as well, but the HRR just looks better.

I run 1 HRR with that group, all in all, I have the RoF when combined, but I have that ap1 which gives me a better chance to explode things randomly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to mention, take out the meat, and ID any T4 HQs in a squad

I'm still extremely new to Tau so it's something I'll be learning as I go. But is it really worth taking the three with missiles and velocity or does mixing like that with the target lock on the HRR?

I just finished making my first list since the update today and will be a while before I can try it out but I tried to cover as many holes in it as I could and it just felt like in that formation, along with the optimised stealth cadre, that the best role for them with the relentless was the missiles as a midfield supporting unit. Which is a shame cause I like the look of the HRR I just couldn't fit it in a way that felt like it worked well.

There is no by no means a "right or wrong" way to run any unit. even HRR have a niche case they are better at then HYMP.

Me personally, I have had success with running my broadsides in my retaliation cadre

bside 1 - HYMP, Plasma, target lock
bside 2 - HYMP, Plasma, target lock
bside 3 - HYMP, plasma

Allows me to target 3 units if need be. I usually run a fusion blade commander, so him and the HRR fire at something together. If I get tank hunter or monster hunter from warlord traits this unit is devastating to the opponent. Large footprint, so I also run a Warscaper drone with my commander to give them move through cover.

When deepstriking a huge unit like this, place a drone down first... that way you have less chance to immediately mishap.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 SaJeel wrote:
When you look at the stats, as I have said before, The only thing better suited for killing 2+ armor point for point, is a crisis suit with 2 plasma, one being twinlinked being roughly 10% more effective, everything else, from riptides to hammerheads are weaker at removing 2+ armor.

Against 2+ armor HYMP loses, at best it ties, HYMP are not better at removing 2+ armor than HRR, I've done the math many times

What stats are you looking at? How many 2+ without invul you see in play? Centurions are the only that comes to mind.
And then you still ignore the realities of the game and assume no cover for such a unit.

The scenarios where the HRR is actually better are rare and unlikely, in fact the scenarios where it's even halfway decent are rare and unlikely.

And that's a shame as I love the rail thematics, and hate the macross HYMP.

Well, cover saves are easily circumvented when you play Tau, thanks to markerlights and buffmanders.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 SaJeel wrote:
When you look at the stats, as I have said before, The only thing better suited for killing 2+ armor point for point, is a crisis suit with 2 plasma, one being twinlinked being roughly 10% more effective, everything else, from riptides to hammerheads are weaker at removing 2+ armor.

Against 2+ armor HYMP loses, at best it ties, HYMP are not better at removing 2+ armor than HRR, I've done the math many times

What stats are you looking at? How many 2+ without invul you see in play? Centurions are the only that comes to mind.
And then you still ignore the realities of the game and assume no cover for such a unit.

The scenarios where the HRR is actually better are rare and unlikely, in fact the scenarios where it's even halfway decent are rare and unlikely.

And that's a shame as I love the rail thematics, and hate the macross HYMP.

Well, cover saves are easily circumvented when you play Tau, thanks to markerlights and buffmanders.

I dont understand how people keep missing the point-a marker used to remove cover is not used to buff BS. therefor, even when it will get ignored, it still achieved something.

In most cases, unless they have some crazy 2+ reroll cover save I elect to up BS over removing cover. my 2cents

Cheers!

Cover save only matters if you can defeat their armor save. Massed AP4 from Missiles rarely need more than just being able to hit. Save the ignore cover for jinking vehicles or 4+ saves going to ground.

SJ

 BoomWolf wrote:


I dont understand how people keep missing the point-a marker used to remove cover is not used to buff BS. therefor, even when it will get ignored, it still achieved something.

Yup, but with Broadsides being Twin-Linked, the buff to BS isn't as vital for them as, say, plasma rifle crisis suits.

If we were firing at a unit of TEQ sitting behind an Aegis then the maths goes like this:

3 Railsides:

3 shots at BS3 with twin-linked = 2.25 hits
S8 vs T4 = 1.875 wounds.
Using 2 markerlights to remove cover leaves 5+ invulnerable = 1.25 wounds

3 shots at BS5 (from two markerlights) with twin-linked = 2.916 hits
S8 vs T4 = 2.4305 wounds
Aegis cover of 4+ = 1.215 wounds
(if in open, = 1.62 wounds)

So using the markerlights to remove cover is slightly more effective than using them to increase BS when shooting broadside railguns at a TEQ behind an Aegis.

Yes, it is.
SLIGHTLY. against the perfect target.

But the HYMP is so superior in so many other cases, that its just not enough to even consider.

Railside is like a specialized unit compared to HYMP being the TAC, and the cases where the rail specialty comes up, he is hardly any better-while in any case where its not the specialty, the HYMP is just miles ahead.

The HRR's performance against things like MANZ (which is its actual perfect target) is not hardly any better -- it's much, much better.

It is a more specialty weapon, that is true, as such units are unusual.

What GW should do is stop making you pay for range larger than the average table.

I think the balancing of the HRR and HYMP can be achieved in one of two ways..

Making HYMP cost something extra.. what this is I am not sure. maybe 20 points.

Or.. make HRR rapid fire instead of heavy. that makes them 100% more playable as they can now move with rifles as well. XD

Maybe buff up the HRR to S9?