Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hm. That's an interesting point.

Null-deployment, however, can be not all that great cause you can get hopelessly behind on maelstorm even if you're 1 turn off the table. But that's another discussion.

 koooaei wrote:
Hm. That's an interesting point.

Null-deployment, however, can be not all that great cause you can get hopelessly behind on maelstorm even if you're 1 turn off the table. But that's another discussion.

Maelstrom will require more to be deployed perhaps. Depends on the mission. Maelstrom is definitely to be considered. I'm not sure there will be an ocean of gap between your points if you deploy your force well. Realisticlly there are often only three objectives you can reasonably expect to get to and take in turn one, so some of that threat is imagined more than real. But yes, I agree, Maelstrom may require an infiltrator or two to join the party

If you face something like eldar, dark eldar, harlequins, dark angels, white scars, KDK, infiltration lists like Huron/Ahriman CSM or mass scouts, skyhammer...you can expect them to take over the field turn one. Either with fast flat-outs or scout + fast flat-outs. Heck, even orks with flat-outs will cover 2/3 of the board in one go.

So, in many cases null-deployment is not an option. Basically, in almost every mission other than ascending objectives you'll find it difficult to catch up on points without a very succsessful emidiate obliteration of most of the enemy forces. Which is not guaranteed.

Not to say it's completely useless or something, but null-deployment has been a very rare thing to work effectively since maelstorm was introduced. Cause it's the rise of fast tough jinking armies which are in turn hard to kill in one go to boot.

 koooaei wrote:
If you face something like eldar, dark eldar, harlequins, dark angels, white scars, KDK, infiltration lists like Huron/Ahriman CSM or mass scouts, skyhammer...you can expect them to take over the field turn one. Either with fast flat-outs or scout + fast flat-outs. Heck, even orks with flat-outs will cover 2/3 of the board in one go.

So, in many cases null-deployment is not an option. Basically, in almost every mission other than ascending objectives you'll find it difficult to catch up on points without a very succsessful emidiate obliteration of most of the enemy forces. Which is not guaranteed.

Not to say it's completely useless or something, but null-deployment has been a very rare thing to work effectively since maelstorm was introduced. Cause it's the rise of fast tough jinking armies which are in turn hard to kill in one go to boot.

This is actually one of the biggest reasons why I've been saying that the Mont'ka formation, the "Ranged Support Cadre" is really quite the overlooked gem for the Tau.
3x Infiltrating, Scouting, and Shrouded Pathfinders.
3x units of Broadsides that can Overwatch as far as the range for their weapon is and double up the number of Markerlight counters when firing at targets the Pathfinders from the formation have marked.

You're looking at 585 base for 9 Broadsides, with HRRs and SMS, that can overwatch at 60".
And 132 points for 3 units of minimum Pathfinders that can be placed in ruins/cover simply to be annoying at the start of the game with Infiltration and Shrouded.

It is a pretty nasty thing for an army that decides to make a charge against the Pathfinders.

 koooaei wrote:
If you face something like eldar, dark eldar, harlequins, dark angels, white scars, KDK, infiltration lists like Huron/Ahriman CSM or mass scouts, skyhammer...you can expect them to take over the field turn one. Either with fast flat-outs or scout + fast flat-outs. Heck, even orks with flat-outs will cover 2/3 of the board in one go.

So, in many cases null-deployment is not an option. Basically, in almost every mission other than ascending objectives you'll find it difficult to catch up on points without a very succsessful emidiate obliteration of most of the enemy forces. Which is not guaranteed.

Not to say it's completely useless or something, but null-deployment has been a very rare thing to work effectively since maelstorm was introduced. Cause it's the rise of fast tough jinking armies which are in turn hard to kill in one go to boot.

Well, I think you might not be entirely appreciating that if the enemy did this, it would be good for me. I WANT them to come to me when Null deploying. Thats' the purpose.

The thing about the HRR range vs the HYMP is 36" is still a huge chunk of the board. Yeah, HYMP wont reach the backfield light vehicle thats spitting out table-long templates, but thats what the random Crisis suit deepstriker is for. HYMP will never have nothing to shoot at, and if they dont somehow then you already won.

They shouldnt be S10, that much is obvious since they were ludicrously OP against anything that isnt hordes. Bringing armor against Tau was a deathwish before this change, since every tau player had 3-6 of these things and probably a Hammerhead too. But what theyre at now is terrible.

Only time i'd rather a railrifle over hymp is against multiwound 2+ armor, since odds are the insane dakka output isnt going to get through that reliably. But thats rare as hell.

Its a strategic take, not a unit thing.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The thing about the HRR range vs the HYMP is 36" is still a huge chunk of the board. Yeah, HYMP wont reach the backfield light vehicle thats spitting out table-long templates, but thats what the random Crisis suit deepstriker is for. HYMP will never have nothing to shoot at, and if they dont somehow then you already won.

They shouldnt be S10, that much is obvious since they were ludicrously OP against anything that isnt hordes. Bringing armor against Tau was a deathwish before this change, since every tau player had 3-6 of these things and probably a Hammerhead too. But what theyre at now is terrible.

Only time i'd rather a railrifle over hymp is against multiwound 2+ armor, since odds are the insane dakka output isnt going to get through that reliably. But thats rare as hell.

They should probably be S9 AP1, and the bigger one should be S or S10 AP1 Armorbane.

Are HRR still twin linked?

They are, but that doesnt mean much. HYMP are also twinlinked.

I wish Heavy Rail Rifles would cause D3 wounds on a To Wound of 6, and the Rail Gun be Str D without Deathblow. Real life rail weapons obliterate anything they hit, but they have several several minutes at best between reloads due to modern power generation. HYMP should be wrecking numbers, while Rails should be wrecking tough single models. Currently the HYMP can reliably strip health off everything the Rail isnt useless against better than it can splat them 9/10 of the time.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The thing about the HRR range vs the HYMP is 36" is still a huge chunk of the board. Yeah, HYMP wont reach the backfield light vehicle thats spitting out table-long templates, but thats what the random Crisis suit deepstriker is for. HYMP will never have nothing to shoot at, and if they dont somehow then you already won.

They shouldnt be S10, that much is obvious since they were ludicrously OP against anything that isnt hordes. Bringing armor against Tau was a deathwish before this change, since every tau player had 3-6 of these things and probably a Hammerhead too. But what theyre at now is terrible.

Only time i'd rather a railrifle over hymp is against multiwound 2+ armor, since odds are the insane dakka output isnt going to get through that reliably. But thats rare as hell.

They should probably be S9 AP1, and the bigger one should be S or S10 AP1 Armorbane.

Are HRR still twin linked?

S9 is probably the magic number for them. Can still double out t4, but not T5, strong enough to pop even AV14, but not overwhelming AV12.

 Jancoran wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
If you face something like eldar, dark eldar, harlequins, dark angels, white scars, KDK, infiltration lists like Huron/Ahriman CSM or mass scouts, skyhammer...you can expect them to take over the field turn one. Either with fast flat-outs or scout + fast flat-outs. Heck, even orks with flat-outs will cover 2/3 of the board in one go.

So, in many cases null-deployment is not an option. Basically, in almost every mission other than ascending objectives you'll find it difficult to catch up on points without a very succsessful emidiate obliteration of most of the enemy forces. Which is not guaranteed.

Not to say it's completely useless or something, but null-deployment has been a very rare thing to work effectively since maelstorm was introduced. Cause it's the rise of fast tough jinking armies which are in turn hard to kill in one go to boot.

Well, I think you might not be entirely appreciating that if the enemy did this, it would be good for me. I WANT them to come to me when Null deploying. Thats' the purpose.

In this case, it's a good strategy

It's just that i'd not expect to obliterate tougher targets with just alpha-strike. You don't ds turn 1, right? Than you'll also have problems against daemons.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Real life rail weapons obliterate anything they hit, .

They do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More so than, say, an explosive warhead?

 koooaei wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
If you face something like eldar, dark eldar, harlequins, dark angels, white scars, KDK, infiltration lists like Huron/Ahriman CSM or mass scouts, skyhammer...you can expect them to take over the field turn one. Either with fast flat-outs or scout + fast flat-outs. Heck, even orks with flat-outs will cover 2/3 of the board in one go.

So, in many cases null-deployment is not an option. Basically, in almost every mission other than ascending objectives you'll find it difficult to catch up on points without a very succsessful emidiate obliteration of most of the enemy forces. Which is not guaranteed.

Not to say it's completely useless or something, but null-deployment has been a very rare thing to work effectively since maelstorm was introduced. Cause it's the rise of fast tough jinking armies which are in turn hard to kill in one go to boot.

Well, I think you might not be entirely appreciating that if the enemy did this, it would be good for me. I WANT them to come to me when Null deploying. Thats' the purpose.

In this case, it's a good strategy

It's just that i'd not expect to obliterate tougher targets with just alpha-strike. You don't ds turn 1, right? Than you'll also have problems against daemons.

No turn 1 DS. I want to waste theenemy shooting for two rounds when I null deploy, and cost them more than they can afford to KEEP losing. To that end the Broadsides want to hide and go second (most fo the time, unless they have Raiders or something) and essentially let them come to me by turn two (because angles). I hope to then have them broken into more managable parts to dissectr with reserves.

I might be biased but 90% of my wins are based heavilly on maelstorm points. Sometimes i get just a few models left and the enemy has half his army and still can't catch up on VP for i've aggressively grabbed everything for the first part of the game.
And when the enemy null-deploys, it's even easier to go ahead on VP. Yes, he'll have better angles and overwhelming firepower. But would it be enough to obliterate my list fast enough?

 koooaei wrote:
I might be biased but 90% of my wins are based heavilly on maelstorm points. Sometimes i get just a few models left and the enemy has half his army and still can't catch up on VP for i've aggressively grabbed everything for the first part of the game.
And when the enemy null-deploys, it's even easier to go ahead on VP. Yes, he'll have better angles and overwhelming firepower. But would it be enough to obliterate my list fast enough?

Thats a question for the mision, terrain and general probably. Cant answer that across the board. Null Deployment isnt always the answer. But you have to have the tools in the tool bag in order TO do it WHEN it makes sense. Lacking them steals an opportunity from you.

Maelstrom is a very bloody affair so If its the mision where you get increasing numbers of cards, null deploy works fine. It will be bad on misions where the number of cards declines or is based on objectives conrtrolled. Its a toss up on other missions. Just depends on how well you placed objectives nd also whether you're using like BAO rules whee you have to control stuff til the end of both player turns.

Theres a lot of if's in there. This is a judgement call thing. But to answer the original posters question, it gives you a great tool for null deployment.

We play it in a way that you place objectives first and than roll for sides. So that you can't guarantee that you'll get easy objectives in your deployment zone.

as do we, but that doesnt mean you cant set your objectives up to accomodate your wish to null deploy.

For example, placing them closer to long board edges and far apart nearest to LOS blocking terrain would make the most sense, for example, if you think null deploying is the way to go. No guarantees there but its the best placement for that kind of deployment.

Alcibiades wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Real life rail weapons obliterate anything they hit, .

They do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More so than, say, an explosive warhead?

Not really, a rail weapon is just something that uses electricity to propel an object instead of combustion. You can even make a Coilgun at home which functions like a rail gun, but it'd be worse than a regular gun by a good margin.

An area that I have seen some success with HRR is in the Retaliation Cadre. Now you have a unit of relentless broadsides that are deepstriking.

A unit composition that I have found effective is
2 HYMP, 2 plasma, 2 Target Locks
1 HRR, plasma

Essentially deepstriking behind enemy armor allows a nice av10-11 sweetspot for the HRR. If in the DBC you have possible reroll pens.. or if you have a buffmander or roll a warlord trait on FSE to get MC or tank hunter.

If you don't have AV targets the HYMP give you enough RoF to take out meat before you fire the HRR to take out that character hiding in the back of a unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One thing that I want to mention.. is that with the new Tau options.. there are other units that fill the roll the Missleside used to in scenario based better way.

For example. A crisis suit with dual CIBs is only 52 points. Produces 6 s7 shots.. or 2 s8 blasts. They are relentless, can deepstrike and JSJ.. which is very powerful in the faster movement games we have now.. and objectives.

Another option is the Ghostkeel. 130 points for a CIR 6 s7 shots 1 s8 L.blast.. also a flamer secondary and loads of special rules that make it a much harder unit to take down than a broadside.

Both of these units thus filling the HYMP roll.. give you more room to experiment with HRR units.

 Tinkrr wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Real life rail weapons obliterate anything they hit, .

They do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More so than, say, an explosive warhead?

Not really, a rail weapon is just something that uses electricity to propel an object instead of combustion. You can even make a Coilgun at home which functions like a rail gun, but it'd be worse than a regular gun by a good margin.

The point of a railgun is not explosion or combustion. The point is a railgun can fire a round much faster than a normal missile/warhead and can penetrate much much further as well

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Real life rail weapons obliterate anything they hit, .

They do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More so than, say, an explosive warhead?

Not really, a rail weapon is just something that uses electricity to propel an object instead of combustion. You can even make a Coilgun at home which functions like a rail gun, but it'd be worse than a regular gun by a good margin.

The point of a railgun is not explosion or combustion. The point is a railgun can fire a round much faster than a normal missile/warhead and can penetrate much much further as well

Incorrect. The point of a railgun is to transfer more energy upon impact than conventional chemical propellant projectiles. Some advantages are longer range, flatter trajectory, and reduce chance of crew deaths due to explosive propellant cooking off. The energy transfer will also remove the need for an explosive charge in the projectile, and will avoid the use of contaminating materials such as depleted uranium.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Real life rail weapons obliterate anything they hit, .

They do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More so than, say, an explosive warhead?

Not really, a rail weapon is just something that uses electricity to propel an object instead of combustion. You can even make a Coilgun at home which functions like a rail gun, but it'd be worse than a regular gun by a good margin.

The point of a railgun is not explosion or combustion. The point is a railgun can fire a round much faster than a normal missile/warhead and can penetrate much much further as well

Incorrect. The point of a railgun is to transfer more energy upon impact than conventional chemical propellant projectiles. Some advantages are longer range, flatter trajectory, and reduce chance of crew deaths due to explosive propellant cooking off. The energy transfer will also remove the need for an explosive charge in the projectile, and will avoid the use of contaminating materials such as depleted uranium.

SJ

Look up info on railguns and tell me anything I said was incorrect:
Railgun projectiles are faster
No explosion
Greater Penetration

you are, in fact, correct.

If you've ever seen a railgun hit a target, you know the impact is explosive and incendiary.

SJ

The idea behind the terminal physics on a railgun isn't super-penetration. While they are capable of that with a sufficiently dense slug, poking a small hole into something like a battleship is not that useful. Railgun slugs are instead intended to strike with a kinetic energy that beyond the vaporization point of material of the slug, causing to effectively "flash boil" (technically, it turns to plasma). This phase change release vast amounts of energy as heat that the resulting plasma will burn through pretty much anything, while still carrying enough forward kinetic energy (and air turbulence behind it) to push/pull it thought the initial impact point.
It's the same concept that most anti-tank weapons operate on, but they do so with conventional explosives to deform the metals, and usually use copper since they are working at much lower energies.
That's why the Navy thinks that a 10lb chunk of tungsten fired 230 miles with be as effective as a cruise missile with several hundred lbs of explosives, or why dropping a metal rod from orbit would be considered a WMD on part with tactical nukes: you are relying on the same basic physics behind meteor impacts.

maceria wrote:
The idea behind the terminal physics on a railgun isn't super-penetration. While they are capable of that with a sufficiently dense slug, poking a small hole into something like a battleship is not that useful. Railgun slugs are instead intended to strike with a kinetic energy that beyond the vaporization point of material of the slug, causing to effectively "flash boil" (technically, it turns to plasma). This phase change release vast amounts of energy as heat that the resulting plasma will burn through pretty much anything, while still carrying enough forward kinetic energy (and air turbulence behind it) to push/pull it thought the initial impact point.
It's the same concept that most anti-tank weapons operate on, but they do so with conventional explosives to deform the metals, and usually use copper since they are working at much lower energies.
That's why the Navy thinks that a 10lb chunk of tungsten fired 230 miles with be as effective as a cruise missile with several hundred lbs of explosives, or why dropping a metal rod from orbit would be considered a WMD on part with tactical nukes: you are relying on the same basic physics behind meteor impacts.

Yep. Spot on.

SJ

We aren't talking about a real life rail gun though, we are talking about a tau fluff gun. Where it is described to be traveling so fast that itll pierce just about anything and the effect that creates all the damage is the vacuum it creates behind it. Similar to the way a .50cal sniper rifle doesnt have to actually make contact with a person to do damage, if you fire it within a few feet of a person the propulsion will still rip skin,clothes and somethines muscle off the bone.

They are not meant to be like an explosive, in fluff.

 Wolfnid420 wrote:
We aren't talking about a real life rail gun though, we are talking about a tau fluff gun. Where it is described to be traveling so fast that itll pierce just about anything and the effect that creates all the damage is the vacuum it creates behind it. Similar to the way a .50cal sniper rifle doesnt have to actually make contact with a person to do damage, if you fire it within a few feet of a person the propulsion will still rip skin,clothes and somethines muscle off the bone.

They are not meant to be like an explosive, in fluff.

That would be the AP1 and low rate of fire.

SJ

Did rail rifles every used to be "beam weapons" I feel like that would be more in line with the fluff and up their use on the tabletop at the same time.

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Did rail rifles every used to be "beam weapons" I feel like that would be more in line with the fluff and up their use on the tabletop at the same time.

They never have been, it's something I've been saying for a long time though.