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 SaJeel wrote:
When you look at the stats, as I have said before, The only thing better suited for killing 2+ armor point for point, is a crisis suit with 2 plasma, one being twinlinked being roughly 10% more effective, everything else, from riptides to hammerheads are weaker at removing 2+ armor.

Against 2+ armor HYMP loses, at best it ties, HYMP are not better at removing 2+ armor than HRR, I've done the math many times

It is true that HRR is better against 2+ saves, but when there is an invulnerable save in play (which is usually) that changes. Against TEQ with a 5++ HRRs and HYMPs perform about the same as far as damage outpout goes..

Now if the target is a 2+ multiwound T4 model (MANZ) the HRR is better across the board.

 SaJeel wrote:
When you look at the stats, as I have said before, The only thing better suited for killing 2+ armor point for point, is a crisis suit with 2 plasma, one being twinlinked being roughly 10% more effective, everything else, from riptides to hammerheads are weaker at removing 2+ armor.

Against 2+ armor HYMP loses, at best it ties, HYMP are not better at removing 2+ armor than HRR, I've done the math many times

What stats are you looking at? How many 2+ without invul you see in play? Centurions are the only that comes to mind.
And then you still ignore the realities of the game and assume no cover for such a unit.

The scenarios where the HRR is actually better are rare and unlikely, in fact the scenarios where it's even halfway decent are rare and unlikely.

And that's a shame as I love the rail thematics, and hate the macross HYMP.

 Jancoran wrote:

maceria wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
To be fair, EWO is a really weird piece of gear, since it has the drawbacks people have mentioned, but also has the benefit of taking away potential fire power in a sort of alpha strike. It's really a situation based thing, as sometimes it's better to have weaker shooting, but take out new things to survive, than to have stronger shooting but not have as much left.

In other words, its balanced.

Well yea, decision making during the game is always good.

No, that means it's garbage. If it isn't an instant win button it's garbage.

I assume you're joking. Hard to tell on forums.

Yes, very much so. The proliferation of "I win" buttons is my biggest gripe with this game. So, naturally, I love me some cost/benefit items.

Additionally, a Riptide is huge compared to Broadsides. This results in
a) Broadsides can hide much easier.
b) When Broadsides set up a firing lane, it's limited. This causes your opponent to weigh if they want to risk walking into that fire lane, and will influence how they move the forces, meaning you dictate the battlefield. Riptides just shoot anything anywhere, so your opponent is more likely to pay it no mind and move where they want to.

Some weapons can do their job without being fired, and there is a lot more to the game than points:damage ratios.

As a GK player, I pretty much ignore Riptides as low priority models, because they can't deal enough damage in one go to effect my plan. Markerlights, Firewarriors, and Pathfinders are high priority, followed by Crisis and Broadsides, then Riptides, then vehicles. For Tau, kill their Ballistic Skill > kill their army. Or at least that's how it was.

The new Ghostkeel is a pickle, as are the new high BS formations. The Stormsurge has the same priority as a Riotide. Normal target priorities still work, we just need to move more aggressively in turn 1 to make sure the rest of the game is more survivable.

SJ

I generally agree with you regarding the Stormsurge and its target priority with a notable exception. If you have units that the D missiles are going to be a big problem for, like Wraithknights, IKs, maybe fancy Land Raiders, etc., AND have a legitimate shot at killing the 'Surge in 1 turn, I'd point my guns that way. Otheriwse, 1 (admittedly devastating) pie plate per turn and a bunch of small arms fire probably isn't worth your time.

MilkmanAl wrote:
I generally agree with you regarding the Stormsurge and its target priority with a notable exception. If you have units that the D missiles are going to be a big problem for, like Wraithknights, IKs, maybe fancy Land Raiders, etc., AND have a legitimate shot at killing the 'Surge in 1 turn, I'd point my guns that way. Otheriwse, 1 (admittedly devastating) pie plate per turn and a bunch of small arms fire probably isn't worth your time.

In the Land of the D, MSU reigns supreme.

SJ

Which is why im confused even more about the increase in Tau squad sizes, specifically 9 crisis suits, and the new Fire Team rule lol. In a vacuum, our codex sounds like large units are best, but when you add in Formations and ID/D threats (ID from any form not just the rule) MSU becomes the ultimate tactic. I still say runing duo Cores in a Hunter Cont formation and just taking pure solo-suit squads that "behave" as a unit is insanely powerful, though ive never done it because that kinda breaks friendly-game levels lol.

Given that statement, im for HRRs doing multi-wounds since Tau really have no reliable anti-big thing killing power outside just overkill in dakka (which isnt cost effective at all). Not complaining, there should be a weakness, but since it takes out our best RoF unit to bring pseudo-D weapons i would be for it. Multiple broadside units are expensive, both points and $$$-wise lol.

I've had a success running a list that features Railsides as part of the new Firebase Support Cadre. They really shine in this formation in the Hunter Contingent because of the combined fire rule.
Getting tank hunters and monster hunters combined with the twin-linked nature of the HRR means you're punching MC's, TEC, and Vehicles right in the d!ck each turn.
Giving the riptide EWO lets him use 1 gun for interceptor but still lets him shoot the other gun for the firestorm rule.

Negating AP2 saves at a distance and rerolling hits and wounds/armor pen - with the chance to explode is something tau don't have outside of the Ion gun on the Riptide and perhaps the 1 shot on the Hammerhead.

You can argue that plasma and fusion Crisis suits are game for that but you need to be within a much closer range and probably need the buffmanders support.

HRRs in the new Firebase Support Cadre maybe need 2 marker lights to ignore cover.

I've even thought about giving them Advanced Targeting Systems for next to no points to turn them into death star snipers.

 BoomWolf wrote:


What stats are you looking at? How many 2+ without invul you see in play? Centurions are the only that comes to mind.

\

An HRR will instant death MANZ and other Broadsides and is much, much more effective against them than a HYMP. This is also the case against Crisis suits, although less so. So they're very good against other Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
using cover saves as an argument in a Tau debate is a little disengenuous, since you know that those can be removed

Not for free.

Problem with that is majority of the T4 multiwound models are either covered in ablative wounds (still dont get why you can LoS a precision shot) or are quite rare compared to the options the HYMP could kill. MANz, Crisis Suits, Broadsides, and Warriors are all i can think of outside HQs that are splattable by S8...and warriors really wouldnt even be on that list since 4+ armor (4 S7 AP4 shots will kill it long before 1 S8 AP1 would, since flopping 3 2+ wounds is nigh impossible compared to 1).

So, thought about rails. What if they had Fleshbane and Armourbane? Even wounds WK on 2s, but cant splat T5 models and can be used on Landraiders roughly about as reliably as before (if not a fraction better). Single shots should be dependable, and currently they are definitely NOT dependable.

Were they fleshbane armorbane? I'd spam them.
Assuming it will also mean the HH railgun will get buffed in comparison, so I might spam HH instead.


Alcibiades - cover saves are still relevant against tau. And marker used to ignore cover is one not used to buff BS.

As for the units you mentioned, MANZ are non threat at the moment, crisis suits will NEVER allow a stationary broadside LoS, and enemy broadsides will be either defended by drones, in cover on skyshields, in fortifications, etc. Never a clean shot unless your enemy is a fool.

Rail is indeed better for a handful of fringe cases, but they are too rare, too unlikely and too depending on your opponent to goof up to begin with.

Railsides are like stealth suits. We WANT to love them, but they are just not good enough. They need just a bit more to be on the "good enough" category, and then fluff tau players will flock to them.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Which is why im confused even more about the increase in Tau squad sizes, specifically 9 crisis suits, and the new Fire Team rule lol. In a vacuum, our codex sounds like large units are best, but when you add in Formations and ID/D threats (ID from any form not just the rule) MSU becomes the ultimate tactic. I still say runing duo Cores in a Hunter Cont formation and just taking pure solo-suit squads that "behave" as a unit is insanely powerful, though ive never done it because that kinda breaks friendly-game levels lol.

You've also got a dude who hands out ignores cover, twin linked and tank/moster hunter to his entire unit. That is a pretty significant reason to take a big unit. Alternatively, you don't have to waste a bunch of points on shas'vre's if you were running a farsight bomb now. Once you get shadowsun in there to hand out shrouded to everyone as well, eh, economies of scale is a thing and can be better than MSU in places. And with split fire interacting with co-ordinated firepower the way it does, you get more milage out of the few markerlights you will be bringing/have left while still decimating half the enemy army in 1 round of shooting.

Naaris wrote:
I've had a success running a list that features Railsides as part of the new Firebase Support Cadre. They really shine in this formation in the Hunter Contingent because of the combined fire rule.
Getting tank hunters and monster hunters combined with the twin-linked nature of the HRR means you're punching MC's, TEC, and Vehicles right in the d!ck each turn.

You do realise that the old FBSC handed out tank hunter to everyone anyway, right? And prefered enemy; marines? And that you didn't have to fire 3 expensive units at one target, thereby almost making target locks mandatory? Meaning you now can't take EWO on the 'sides? And even then, tank hunter on the missilesides was a better deal since they were lower strength?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Problem with that is majority of the T4 multiwound models are either covered in ablative wounds (still dont get why you can LoS a precision shot) or are quite rare compared to the options the HYMP could kill. MANz, Crisis Suits, Broadsides, and Warriors are all i can think of outside HQs that are splattable by S8...and warriors really wouldnt even be on that list since 4+ armor (4 S7 AP4 shots will kill it long before 1 S8 AP1 would, since flopping 3 2+ wounds is nigh impossible compared to 1).

So, thought about rails. What if they had Fleshbane and Armourbane? Even wounds WK on 2s, but cant splat T5 models and can be used on Landraiders roughly about as reliably as before (if not a fraction better). Single shots should be dependable, and currently they are definitely NOT dependable.

Too bad the OSC already made vehicles obsolete, otherwise armourbane rail rifles would've done that. 60" Str 8 AP1 armourbane on a 65 point model is insane. On average, you're penetrating a land raider, not to mention consigning the hammerhead to obsolecence even harder than it is already. Forget that noise. Fleshbane on the otherhand would only make them affect, hmmm, maybe half a dozen models that they don't already wound on a 2+? Wraithknight/lord, C'Tan, GUO, Talos/Cronos and I can't think of anything else with T7 or greater without going looking for them or naming forgeworld stuff. Shred would've been a better choice there I think, far, far more likely to come into effect and far more useful to up their reliability

 Kanluwen wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
If you face something like eldar, dark eldar, harlequins, dark angels, white scars, KDK, infiltration lists like Huron/Ahriman CSM or mass scouts, skyhammer...you can expect them to take over the field turn one. Either with fast flat-outs or scout + fast flat-outs. Heck, even orks with flat-outs will cover 2/3 of the board in one go.

So, in many cases null-deployment is not an option. Basically, in almost every mission other than ascending objectives you'll find it difficult to catch up on points without a very succsessful emidiate obliteration of most of the enemy forces. Which is not guaranteed.

Not to say it's completely useless or something, but null-deployment has been a very rare thing to work effectively since maelstorm was introduced. Cause it's the rise of fast tough jinking armies which are in turn hard to kill in one go to boot.

This is actually one of the biggest reasons why I've been saying that the Mont'ka formation, the "Ranged Support Cadre" is really quite the overlooked gem for the Tau.
3x Infiltrating, Scouting, and Shrouded Pathfinders.
3x units of Broadsides that can Overwatch as far as the range for their weapon is and double up the number of Markerlight counters when firing at targets the Pathfinders from the formation have marked.

You're looking at 585 base for 9 Broadsides, with HRRs and SMS, that can overwatch at 60".
And 132 points for 3 units of minimum Pathfinders that can be placed in ruins/cover simply to be annoying at the start of the game with Infiltration and Shrouded.

It is a pretty nasty thing for an army that decides to make a charge against the Pathfinders.

That's actually pretty nice. TBH the only other place I was looking at broadsides was the retaliation cadre cause they have relentless to help with the HYMP a bit more. The missiles would probably do better in that formation as well, but the HRR just looks better.

 n0t_u wrote:
That's actually pretty nice. TBH the only other place I was looking at broadsides was the retaliation cadre cause they have relentless to help with the HYMP a bit more. The missiles would probably do better in that formation as well, but the HRR just looks better.

I run 1 HRR with that group, all in all, I have the RoF when combined, but I have that ap1 which gives me a better chance to explode things randomly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to mention, take out the meat, and ID any T4 HQs in a squad

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
That's actually pretty nice. TBH the only other place I was looking at broadsides was the retaliation cadre cause they have relentless to help with the HYMP a bit more. The missiles would probably do better in that formation as well, but the HRR just looks better.

I run 1 HRR with that group, all in all, I have the RoF when combined, but I have that ap1 which gives me a better chance to explode things randomly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to mention, take out the meat, and ID any T4 HQs in a squad

I'm still extremely new to Tau so it's something I'll be learning as I go. But is it really worth taking the three with missiles and velocity or does mixing like that with the target lock on the HRR?

I just finished making my first list since the update today and will be a while before I can try it out but I tried to cover as many holes in it as I could and it just felt like in that formation, along with the optimised stealth cadre, that the best role for them with the relentless was the missiles as a midfield supporting unit. Which is a shame cause I like the look of the HRR I just couldn't fit it in a way that felt like it worked well.

 n0t_u wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
That's actually pretty nice. TBH the only other place I was looking at broadsides was the retaliation cadre cause they have relentless to help with the HYMP a bit more. The missiles would probably do better in that formation as well, but the HRR just looks better.

I run 1 HRR with that group, all in all, I have the RoF when combined, but I have that ap1 which gives me a better chance to explode things randomly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to mention, take out the meat, and ID any T4 HQs in a squad

I'm still extremely new to Tau so it's something I'll be learning as I go. But is it really worth taking the three with missiles and velocity or does mixing like that with the target lock on the HRR?

I just finished making my first list since the update today and will be a while before I can try it out but I tried to cover as many holes in it as I could and it just felt like in that formation, along with the optimised stealth cadre, that the best role for them with the relentless was the missiles as a midfield supporting unit. Which is a shame cause I like the look of the HRR I just couldn't fit it in a way that felt like it worked well.

There is no by no means a "right or wrong" way to run any unit. even HRR have a niche case they are better at then HYMP.

Me personally, I have had success with running my broadsides in my retaliation cadre

bside 1 - HYMP, Plasma, target lock
bside 2 - HYMP, Plasma, target lock
bside 3 - HYMP, plasma

Allows me to target 3 units if need be. I usually run a fusion blade commander, so him and the HRR fire at something together. If I get tank hunter or monster hunter from warlord traits this unit is devastating to the opponent. Large footprint, so I also run a Warscaper drone with my commander to give them move through cover.

When deepstriking a huge unit like this, place a drone down first... that way you have less chance to immediately mishap.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 SaJeel wrote:
When you look at the stats, as I have said before, The only thing better suited for killing 2+ armor point for point, is a crisis suit with 2 plasma, one being twinlinked being roughly 10% more effective, everything else, from riptides to hammerheads are weaker at removing 2+ armor.

Against 2+ armor HYMP loses, at best it ties, HYMP are not better at removing 2+ armor than HRR, I've done the math many times

What stats are you looking at? How many 2+ without invul you see in play? Centurions are the only that comes to mind.
And then you still ignore the realities of the game and assume no cover for such a unit.

The scenarios where the HRR is actually better are rare and unlikely, in fact the scenarios where it's even halfway decent are rare and unlikely.

And that's a shame as I love the rail thematics, and hate the macross HYMP.

Well, cover saves are easily circumvented when you play Tau, thanks to markerlights and buffmanders.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 SaJeel wrote:
When you look at the stats, as I have said before, The only thing better suited for killing 2+ armor point for point, is a crisis suit with 2 plasma, one being twinlinked being roughly 10% more effective, everything else, from riptides to hammerheads are weaker at removing 2+ armor.

Against 2+ armor HYMP loses, at best it ties, HYMP are not better at removing 2+ armor than HRR, I've done the math many times

What stats are you looking at? How many 2+ without invul you see in play? Centurions are the only that comes to mind.
And then you still ignore the realities of the game and assume no cover for such a unit.

The scenarios where the HRR is actually better are rare and unlikely, in fact the scenarios where it's even halfway decent are rare and unlikely.

And that's a shame as I love the rail thematics, and hate the macross HYMP.

Well, cover saves are easily circumvented when you play Tau, thanks to markerlights and buffmanders.

I dont understand how people keep missing the point-a marker used to remove cover is not used to buff BS. therefor, even when it will get ignored, it still achieved something.

In most cases, unless they have some crazy 2+ reroll cover save I elect to up BS over removing cover. my 2cents

Cheers!

Cover save only matters if you can defeat their armor save. Massed AP4 from Missiles rarely need more than just being able to hit. Save the ignore cover for jinking vehicles or 4+ saves going to ground.

SJ

 BoomWolf wrote:


I dont understand how people keep missing the point-a marker used to remove cover is not used to buff BS. therefor, even when it will get ignored, it still achieved something.

Yup, but with Broadsides being Twin-Linked, the buff to BS isn't as vital for them as, say, plasma rifle crisis suits.

If we were firing at a unit of TEQ sitting behind an Aegis then the maths goes like this:

3 Railsides:

3 shots at BS3 with twin-linked = 2.25 hits
S8 vs T4 = 1.875 wounds.
Using 2 markerlights to remove cover leaves 5+ invulnerable = 1.25 wounds

3 shots at BS5 (from two markerlights) with twin-linked = 2.916 hits
S8 vs T4 = 2.4305 wounds
Aegis cover of 4+ = 1.215 wounds
(if in open, = 1.62 wounds)

So using the markerlights to remove cover is slightly more effective than using them to increase BS when shooting broadside railguns at a TEQ behind an Aegis.

Yes, it is.
SLIGHTLY. against the perfect target.

But the HYMP is so superior in so many other cases, that its just not enough to even consider.

Railside is like a specialized unit compared to HYMP being the TAC, and the cases where the rail specialty comes up, he is hardly any better-while in any case where its not the specialty, the HYMP is just miles ahead.

The HRR's performance against things like MANZ (which is its actual perfect target) is not hardly any better -- it's much, much better.

It is a more specialty weapon, that is true, as such units are unusual.

What GW should do is stop making you pay for range larger than the average table.

I think the balancing of the HRR and HYMP can be achieved in one of two ways..

Making HYMP cost something extra.. what this is I am not sure. maybe 20 points.

Or.. make HRR rapid fire instead of heavy. that makes them 100% more playable as they can now move with rifles as well. XD

Maybe buff up the HRR to S9?