One thing that has always bothered me about the Tau and the people who play them is that they are constantly referred to as the only "good" race in the 40k lore. I would challenge that they are, in fact, one of the most corrupt and oppressive races in the galaxy. Now I will be the first to admit that I'm only starting to learn about the lore outside of the Imperium, but the Tau seem far from good.
Let's start with the caste system. The very existence of a caste system points out the fact that equality is a concept the xenos don't value. You are born to perform a specific job. You have no choice but to do this job. If you stray from this path, you are of no use to our society. I wish things were different, but I was burdened with being born in the Ethereal Caste, and it is therefore my job to ensure you are doing yours. Then we have the non-Tau "citizens". The Kroot and Vespids seem to be treated as second-class citizens. They are allowed to exist within the empire solely for their value as soldiers.
The worst offense to me is the use of the Tau motto of "For the Greater Good" to justify claiming the Tau are the "good" race of the galaxy. Have you ever actually heard anyone justify something they have done as being "for the greater good"? They don't use the expression when they have just finished a charity walk. This expression is used after something horrible has been done. You say it because you know what you did was wrong, or at least morally questionable, but you hope that it will lead to a positive outcome. Eventually. E.G. "Sure, I set fire to a box of kittens, but it was for the greater good. Those orphans who were playing with them looked cold."
I'm not saying the Tau are evil, just that they are no better than any other totalitarian regime in this messed up, grimdark world we all know and love. Their method of control is just a little more subtle.
The Greater Good is the Greater Good of the Tau Empire. They are incredibly imperialistic and treat their non Tau subjects as expendable resources and tools to be exploited. Even the common Tau is disposable if its for the benefit of the Empire. Tau propaganda wants everything to think that they are the good guys and they offer the promise of peace and prosperity as an incentive for cooperation which ultimately leads to subjugation. The Ethereal Caste have a means of thought control over their population and censor information that goes against the Greater Good. Socially the Tau Empire is a Utilitarian Fascist government with views of racial superiority and a universe wide manifest destiny. Their morality is that of fulfilling the needs of the Empire over the needs of the individual (except in protecting the lives of the Ethereals) with the Tau race being the priority over other races.
People look at the Tau as the hippie anime space commies which is a distorted view of the veneer they put on to convince others to join their empire and hide the ruthless and cold nature of the Tau leadership. Of course all the mech suits give off the vibe of anime tropes which also tends to irritate people. As you pointed out a lot of people look at the phrase "The Greater Good" and assume that the Tau are suppose to be the good guys. At best the Tau are neutral but honestly they tend to fall into the slightly darker shade of grey than the more true neutral factions like Nids or Orks (Nids want to eat, Orks want to party ).
You are correct in the idea that they are not "good" by modern standards (egalitarianism and equality) but it is “good” in the sense that it is furthering the aims of their own faction/species. At the faction level good is described as being positive for your faction or race to survive or be successful and evil represent things that impede you. The argument that they are “good” comes from the idea that they are relatively tolerant in that they don’t outright wage genocidal wears against all non tau, which is something most other factions cannot claim. Also they tend to value most members of society as having value to the overall wellbeing of the tau state, which most factions, specifically humanity cannot claim.
As an aside the greater good isn’t really a pale justification for horrible acts. Many times it means a sacrifice made to further the bigger plan or protect a larger amount of people. The imperium’s inquisition uses a form of this philosophy when it executes the people who have knowledge of daemons to prevent them from infecting the other populace. In real world equivalent the justification is usually associated with medical research or other morally gray area that has clear ethical ramifications. If one person’s body held the key to preventing or curing a pandemic, would it not be for the greater good to risk that person’s life for the possibility of stopping the pandemic? It is also applicable on a less dramatic scale. Someone who chooses to go be a teacher, or a nurse or some other vital but undervalued or underpaid function in our society could be described as doing it for the greater good. They know they are giving up a lot of potential wealth and comfort in order to perform this vital function because they believe this function is more important than their own personal desires for wealth and comfort. Sometimes it is twisted to be a perversion of this idea, usually to prop up some government hat is abusing its people and saying that their suffering is for the greater good. This is most famously evident in politically Communist and totalitarian regimes of the 20th century like Nazi Germany, North Korea, The USSR and china. From an in game perspective the Tau forming a society that values the whole above the individual in terms of both freedoms and value is in keeping with the initial and un-perverted form of this idea. Out of game, the faction is modeled on the old communist ideologies and held in juxtaposition with the hell that human society has become to make us go “wow it must be terrible if communism looks good!” Because most of us live in places that value personal freedom over the state of the whole, we see this idea as alien, and most people in said societies would react to it with cynicism.
GKTiberius wrote: Out of game, the faction is modeled on the old communist ideologies and held in juxtaposition with the hell that human society has become to make us go “wow it must be terrible if communism looks good!” Because most of us live in places that value personal freedom over the state of the whole, we see this idea as alien, and most people in said societies would react to it with cynicism.
This is another point about the Tau that always bothers me: There is almost no link between Tau ideology and Communism. Communism is about ownership. As Wikipedia puts it:
In political and social sciences, communism (from Latin communis – common, universal) is a social, political, and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money,and the state.
Note the specific reference to "the absence of social classes". Tau society is based more on a combination of the Hindu caste system and Chinese Feudalism.
Nobody owns anything in Tau society, it's all owned by the state - which is what most people think is what communism means, because that's what Stalinism was, which called itself communism (even though its the opposite of true communism).
GKTiberius wrote: Out of game, the faction is modeled on the old communist ideologies and held in juxtaposition with the hell that human society has become to make us go “wow it must be terrible if communism looks good!” Because most of us live in places that value personal freedom over the state of the whole, we see this idea as alien, and most people in said societies would react to it with cynicism.
This is another point about the Tau that always bothers me: There is almost no link between Tau ideology and Communism. Communism is about ownership. As Wikipedia puts it:
In political and social sciences, communism (from Latin communis – common, universal) is a social, political, and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money,and the state.
Note the specific reference to "the absence of social classes". Tau society is based more on a combination of the Hindu caste system and Chinese Feudalism.
The tau castes aren't social classes, they are occupational classes. Social classes have a hierarchical ranging in which one class is superior in social value in some way to the other. Non of the Tau castes (even that is a misnomer because in Hindu culture the social value of each caste goes up the further up the system you go). Fire caste are not held in higher esteem than water or air or earth, they all just have different functions. The only real division of social class are ethereals and everybody else, which is exactly how old world communism works. The ruling elite is held in higher social value than everyone else.
Automatically Appended Next Post: also the word communism is synonymous with stalinism because no government has ever achieved a functioning model of true marxist Communism. they have all fallen into autocratic totalitarian regimes.
GKTiberius wrote: Out of game, the faction is modeled on the old communist ideologies and held in juxtaposition with the hell that human society has become to make us go “wow it must be terrible if communism looks good!” Because most of us live in places that value personal freedom over the state of the whole, we see this idea as alien, and most people in said societies would react to it with cynicism.
This is another point about the Tau that always bothers me: There is almost no link between Tau ideology and Communism. Communism is about ownership. As Wikipedia puts it:
In political and social sciences, communism (from Latin communis – common, universal) is a social, political, and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money,and the state.
Note the specific reference to "the absence of social classes". Tau society is based more on a combination of the Hindu caste system and Chinese Feudalism.
The tau castes aren't social classes, they are occupational classes. Social classes have a hierarchical ranging in which one class is superior in social value in some way to the other. Non of the Tau castes (even that is a misnomer because in Hindu culture the social value of each caste goes up the further up the system you go). Fire caste are not held in higher esteem than water or air or earth, they all just have different functions. The only real division of social class are ethereals and everybody else, which is exactly how old world communism works. The ruling elite is held in higher social value than everyone else.
Automatically Appended Next Post: also the word communism is synonymous with stalinism because no government has ever achieved a functioning model of true marxist Communism. they have all fallen into autocratic totalitarian regimes.
You're right about the distinction between social and occupational castes. Maybe a better comparison would be the Egyptian caste system (apparently someone and GWreally likes ancient Egypt). The point still remains, though. The Tau are not communist.
GKTiberius wrote: The tau castes aren't social classes, they are occupational classes. Social classes have a hierarchical ranging in which one class is superior in social value in some way to the other. Non of the Tau castes (even that is a misnomer because in Hindu culture the social value of each caste goes up the further up the system you go). Fire caste are not held in higher esteem than water or air or earth, they all just have different functions. The only real division of social class are ethereals and everybody else, which is exactly how old world communism works. The ruling elite is held in higher social value than everyone else.
Automatically Appended Next Post: also the word communism is synonymous with stalinism because no government has ever achieved a functioning model of true marxist Communism. they have all fallen into autocratic totalitarian regimes.
The only thing communist about Tau is the probable degree of state owned property (Tau has a merchant class, not sure how state owned their operations are) but everything about them fits nicely in Fascism (read Wikipedia on Facism and tell me that it doesn't fit the Tau). While the Tau have "equal" classes for the Tau race, non Tau are of lower standing while the party (ethereal caste) rules. Even the ideology of Fascism on wikipedia describes what the Ethereals did for the Tau faction in their primitive days "Fascist governments advocated resolution of domestic class conflict within a nation in order to secure national solidarity. This would be done through the state mediating relations between the classes". Etherals show up and stop the fighting between the different "caste" and unify them together (but still keeps Tau in their caste) under the nationalist banner of "The Greater Good". Communism seeks to dissolve the classes while Fascism control the classes for domestic unification.
Now that I think about it, there are also elements of cult indoctrination (though they are far from the only race in the setting guilty of this). Specifically, their tendency to continually point to external sources of conflict in order to prevent conflict among the castes and avoid allowing the citizens of the empire to see the flaws in their own society.
Where do people get the idea that tau treat auxiliary as expendable? Last I checked, and it was a coxed or two back that I checked this, the fluff explicitly states that the tau don't believe in the idea of expendable troops.
Considering the Tau don't really share too much of their technology with their alien allies and they operate as an auxiliary force as shock troopers. It leads me to believe that they tend to use them as needed to fulfill goals but care less about their survival as they do proper Tau. This isn't enemy at the gates penal battalion style waste of life but the Tau definitely value the lives of their own over that of alien auxiliaries. Also considering that Vespids where "convinced" to join the Greater Good through what is basically thought control doesn't speak highly of their concern for the wants of other races.
Vankraken wrote: Considering the Tau don't really share too much of their technology with their alien allies and they operate as an auxiliary force as shock troopers. It leads me to believe that they tend to use them as needed to fulfill goals but care less about their survival as they do proper Tau. This isn't enemy at the gates penal battalion style waste of life but the Tau definitely value the lives of their own over that of alien auxiliaries. Also considering that Vespids where "convinced" to join the Greater Good through what is basically thought control doesn't speak highly of their concern for the wants of other races.
The latest codex says they use them for shock troopers, it also talks about how initially the Vespids didn't want to convert to the Tau Empire but some "custom-made communication headsets" helped them become suddenly and completely complaint in joining the Greater Good. Also just looking at the models you see Kroot with no armor using their crude guns with pulse rounds that the Tau gave them. Only the Shapers can take standard Tau weapons like the Pulse Rifle or Pulse Carbine. In all of the material and models out there we don't see any Vespid or Kroot battle suits in use or any of their races in higher levels of leadership outside their own auxillary forces.
The kroot use their hunting rifles with tau ammo. It's kind of because they aren't a integrated part of the tau army and because the tau don't make a good melee rifle.
The vespin actually do use tau made weapons. The rifle is kind of neat ir's made by the tau, but uses crystals from the vespin home world and can only be used by the vespin. It's because the vespin are a lot more integrated into the empire.
If you include expanded fluff, the tau share their tech a lot. They even give out small battle suits. I don't think they share too too much though. The point of the auxiliary units is that they do things the tau can't do. They are meant to be different not the same.
I don't recall vespin being shock troopers. That might be new fluff or I may have just forgot. It makes sense. They are fast and hit kind of hard, so they make sense for shock troopers. That isn't the only role for the auxiliays though. They also have some that act as space miners or advisers to the aun. They kind of do the role they are most suited to. It's the idea behind the GG.
Vankraken wrote: The latest codex says they use them for shock troopers, it also talks about how initially the Vespids didn't want to convert to the Tau Empire but some "custom-made communication headsets" helped them become suddenly and completely complaint in joining the Greater Good. Also just looking at the models you see Kroot with no armor using their crude guns with pulse rounds that the Tau gave them. Only the Shapers can take standard Tau weapons like the Pulse Rifle or Pulse Carbine. In all of the material and models out there we don't see any Vespid or Kroot battle suits in use or any of their races in higher levels of leadership outside their own auxillary forces.
Conjecture. A few points numbered for my convenience not as a lecture.
1. Shock Troopers =/= expendable
2. The Vespid and Tau didn't understand one another so communication of ideas was next to impossible. And the codex also states that there is no evidence of coercion, it leaves that up to the individuals reading it to make their own mind up.
3. Kroot. Trust is a two way street. It make it clear from the old Kroot army lists that the Kroot don't want to be reliant on the Tau.
4. Lack of models doesn't equal or merit a broad brush approach to Tau society. After all, in earlier codecii it was stated that Tau 'Titans' would be against their way of warfare. Now look at the range of Tau models out there.
What makes the tau good is that in universe where every factions go to move is genocide, the Tau are the only one who will say surrender or die. You get a choice with them even if it's not a great one
The Tau, imo, use "The greater Good" as a cover for how they really work. They seem to be like Imperialist America, where "we want you as allies against the other Nations (Races) and if you don't then that's ok (not really)" And they basically go along with their own plans to take over without the civilization's consent. Goes with the "surrender or die" theme that they want you to join them as lower levels of their society, or else you are the enemy.
Tau are pretty Orwellian, it's something that doesn't get used (or used well) in the fluff. It's either shining towers of good will and freindship, or fething mind control worms. The best Orwellian things are subtle, but 40k writers can't do subtle it appears. I liked how in the older codexs there were hints, nothing solid. It was subtle, it was well made. But then we have 6th edition codex which is about as subtle as a brick to the face.
The tau are almost oppressive to an orwellian extreme, but the alternative of the Imperium isn't much better.
Inquisitor Lord Karamazov once immolated an innocent teen simply on suspicion of heresy. While he was (far later) found to be correct, he simply did it on a hunch. And it's implied he's often wrong given by his quote "A plea of Innocence is Guilty of Wasting my Time."
Then there are the hive worlds where the imperium controls. Forget institutional caste systems, these are places where the rich exploit the crap out of the poor, street gangs roam unchecked, and your luckiest alternative is to be scooped up and shipped off world in the Imperial Guard Regiments.
And those are the world where the Imperium actually gives a damn. On Deathworlds, humans have children like rodents because more die to a horrible death than reach maturity. And then there are chaos worlds, where you are the literal plaything of the universe.
Compared to all of that, being told that you're given a job, housing and food by the state and ensured of your position sounds pretty good.
Most of the tau are evil ideas are basically just in the heads of people, but that is because a good ammout about the tau just isn't talked about so there is a lot of room to insert your own take.
GKTiberius wrote: The tau castes aren't social classes, they are occupational classes. Social classes have a hierarchical ranging in which one class is superior in social value in some way to the other. Non of the Tau castes (even that is a misnomer because in Hindu culture the social value of each caste goes up the further up the system you go). Fire caste are not held in higher esteem than water or air or earth, they all just have different functions. The only real division of social class are ethereals and everybody else, which is exactly how old world communism works. The ruling elite is held in higher social value than everyone else.
Automatically Appended Next Post: also the word communism is synonymous with stalinism because no government has ever achieved a functioning model of true marxist Communism. they have all fallen into autocratic totalitarian regimes.
"Old World Communism"? What does that even mean?
European and Asian communism which used pure command economy principals as opposed to Cuban or Venezuelan communism that allows for some privatization for companies owned by top political individuals to generate money for the government. The later being necessary for the government to function in the globally interdependent modern world, as opposed to the relatively economically isolated one of pre WWII
AndrewC wrote: Kroot. Trust is a two way street. It make it clear from the old Kroot army lists that the Kroot don't want to be reliant on the Tau.
I thought I remember reading somewhere that most Kroot don't like using advanced technology (with a notable sub-faction that does whose name escapes me at the moment). There's not much meat left on the bones when you've incinerated your enemies with plasma fire.
AndrewC wrote: Kroot. Trust is a two way street. It make it clear from the old Kroot army lists that the Kroot don't want to be reliant on the Tau.
I thought I remember reading somewhere that most Kroot don't like using advanced technology (with a notable sub-faction that does whose name escapes me at the moment). There's not much meat left on the bones when you've incinerated your enemies with plasma fire.
Ya a lot of their gear seems more like a cultural choice. Like they have their own spaceships and their own tech. They just don't use it... Then this brings up the question of why they would use the tau's tech? I actually think that pulse upgrade the tau gave them isn't well represented in fluff.
I don't have a source on me but i remember reading something that the Kroot play up the whole omivore savage thing to convince the Tau that they are less advanced than they really are.
Despite what labels are given regarding the "good" vs "evil argument, the fact is the Tau do not exterminate their captives and try to integrate them into their society as useful citizens. Also, every time they initiate contact with a new race the option to join the empire is always extended before military invasion. No other race in 40k does this so Tau are considered "good" when compared this way.
HoundsofDemos wrote: I don't have a source on me but i remember reading something that the Kroot play up the whole omivore savage thing to convince the Tau that they are less advanced than they really are.
It would not surprise me if that was in the fluff mass somewhere. I know the tau know about kroot ships at least. The only reason we know about kroot ships is because they are in tau fleets. Apart from kroot ships, I can't think of much high tech stuff they have that they didn't get from someone else.
HoundsofDemos wrote: I don't have a source on me but i remember reading something that the Kroot play up the whole omivore savage thing to convince the Tau that they are less advanced than they really are.
It would not surprise me if that was in the fluff mass somewhere. I know the tau know about kroot ships at least. The only reason we know about kroot ships is because they are in tau fleets. Apart from kroot ships, I can't think of much high tech stuff they have that they didn't get from someone else.
Considering the fact that Kroot are the only race to grasp the fact that a sphere works better in 3-dimensional warfare than a 1740's Frigate IN SPAAAAAAACE, I'd say that Kroot are more advanced than 80% of the races in 40k.
The Tau started out as somewhat "noblebright". A foolish, naive race that was bright eyed and bushy-tailed, ready to take to the stars. But they didn't count on the fact that not everybody were as egalitarian as they were. And they fit into the category of "enlightened imperialists".
Then a good sized portion of the fanbase freaked out, terrified at the thought of the least little bit of noblebright being injected into their steady I.V. drip of grimdark. So, the Tau were given darker characteristics than before. As a result, the Ethereals are now nothing more than mustache-twirling, Saturday morning cartoon villains. The "Greater Good" philosophy is now just another lie in a galaxy full of lies. Their commanders are becoming more and more like those of the Imperium and Eldar, ruthless and callous. But even then, they're still the "nicest" faction in the galaxy. I guess that's part of the reason why they are still referred to as "blue naive weeabo space communists" (that and their machines look like something out of a mecha anime), despite becoming just as evil (in their own Orwellian way) as everybody else in 40k.
For me, the darker tone killed much of my enjoyment of the Tau Empire fluff. It would have been interesting to see how a genuinely "decent" race, taking their first steps, adapted and changed in a galaxy that is literally a living hell. Do they struggle to maintain, or lose, their idealism? Does it affect their social structure back home? What would go through the minds of individual soldiers, witnessing the horrors out there? Or forced to go against the beliefs they were raised under,and commit acts they find questionable in the interests of survival or expediency? What kind of culture shock would average Tau civilians experience as the Empire expanded? All of this, and much more, would have been interesting to explore. This is, had they not been turned into a bunch of little blue worker ants, being mind controlled with pheromones, by Snidely Whiplash wannabes. It would have been nice to see a faction break the mold, and see where they went from there as they evolved into a true interstellar power.
The only good thing that came with the grimdark-ification was the Farsight Enclaves. Farsight and the Eight are AWESOME. They've become my favorites among Tau characters.
oldravenman3025 wrote: The Tau started out as somewhat "noblebright". A foolish, naive race that was bright eyed and bushy-tailed, ready to take to the stars. But they didn't count on the fact that not everybody were as egalitarian as they were. And they fit into the category of "enlightened imperialists".
I don't think this was ever true. The Tau were always a thinly-veiled reference to manifest destiny and colonialism and all the horrible things done under those pretenses of virtue. The "greater good" they offer has always been the opportunity to submit to the Tau Empire (where all citizens are equal, but some are more equal than others) with the threat of death if you refuse. Their main "good" quality was (and is) the fact that they're pragmatic enough to use science and engineering instead of religious idiocy, and offer you a chance to surrender and be conquered at no cost to the Tau instead of mindlessly exterminating everything in their path. In most other settings they'd be the generic Evil Empire.
But, unfortunately, most people were too lazy to think about the Tau enough to see these references and took the whole Greater Good thing at face value. And so the Tau got more obvious grimdark thrown on top of their fluff in a desperate attempt to make it so obvious that even the most clueless Ultramarines fanboy couldn't possibly fail to miss it.
Context. Even though the Tau are far from being truly good, the heretic-burning, xenos-eradicating, planetary genocide-loving Imperium is an order of magnitude worse.
The Imperium of Man is a grisly nightmare state of grimdark proportions. At least there's a bit of nuance to the Tau. I think the similarly subtle Eldar make for a far more interesting comparison to them.
As far as the IoM goes, I would argue that they actually suffer from the same problem as the Tau. Only the government and leadership are truly corrupt and evil. The average Imperial citizen is just doing what they have to in order to survive in an empire that puts less value in human life than it does in a gallon of fuel.
oldravenman3025 wrote: The Tau started out as somewhat "noblebright". A foolish, naive race that was bright eyed and bushy-tailed, ready to take to the stars. But they didn't count on the fact that not everybody were as egalitarian as they were. And they fit into the category of "enlightened imperialists".
I don't think this was ever true. The Tau were always a thinly-veiled reference to manifest destiny and colonialism and all the horrible things done under those pretenses of virtue. The "greater good" they offer has always been the opportunity to submit to the Tau Empire (where all citizens are equal, but some are more equal than others) with the threat of death if you refuse. Their main "good" quality was (and is) the fact that they're pragmatic enough to use science and engineering instead of religious idiocy, and offer you a chance to surrender and be conquered at no cost to the Tau instead of mindlessly exterminating everything in their path. In most other settings they'd be the generic Evil Empire.
But, unfortunately, most people were too lazy to think about the Tau enough to see these references and took the whole Greater Good thing at face value. And so the Tau got more obvious grimdark thrown on top of their fluff in a desperate attempt to make it so obvious that even the most clueless Ultramarines fanboy couldn't possibly fail to miss it.
No, it was true. It was specified in the original designer's notes, that they were to be an optimistic race to give contrast to the otherwise unrelieved Grimdarkness. GW have since erased these notes from history like Stalin having ex-comrades air-brushed out of official photos.
They're not moral for our standards, but are the best faction to be conquered by in 40k. They are not anywhere near "the most" in terms of how bad they are.
oldravenman3025 wrote: The Tau started out as somewhat "noblebright". A foolish, naive race that was bright eyed and bushy-tailed, ready to take to the stars. But they didn't count on the fact that not everybody were as egalitarian as they were. And they fit into the category of "enlightened imperialists".
I don't think this was ever true. The Tau were always a thinly-veiled reference to manifest destiny and colonialism and all the horrible things done under those pretenses of virtue. The "greater good" they offer has always been the opportunity to submit to the Tau Empire (where all citizens are equal, but some are more equal than others) with the threat of death if you refuse. Their main "good" quality was (and is) the fact that they're pragmatic enough to use science and engineering instead of religious idiocy, and offer you a chance to surrender and be conquered at no cost to the Tau instead of mindlessly exterminating everything in their path. In most other settings they'd be the generic Evil Empire.
But, unfortunately, most people were too lazy to think about the Tau enough to see these references and took the whole Greater Good thing at face value. And so the Tau got more obvious grimdark thrown on top of their fluff in a desperate attempt to make it so obvious that even the most clueless Ultramarines fanboy couldn't possibly fail to miss it.
No, it was true. It was specified in the original designer's notes, that they were to be an optimistic race to give contrast to the otherwise unrelieved Grimdarkness. GW have since erased these notes from history like Stalin having ex-comrades air-brushed out of official photos.
oldravenman3025 wrote: The Tau started out as somewhat "noblebright". A foolish, naive race that was bright eyed and bushy-tailed, ready to take to the stars. But they didn't count on the fact that not everybody were as egalitarian as they were. And they fit into the category of "enlightened imperialists".
I don't think this was ever true. The Tau were always a thinly-veiled reference to manifest destiny and colonialism and all the horrible things done under those pretenses of virtue. The "greater good" they offer has always been the opportunity to submit to the Tau Empire (where all citizens are equal, but some are more equal than others) with the threat of death if you refuse. Their main "good" quality was (and is) the fact that they're pragmatic enough to use science and engineering instead of religious idiocy, and offer you a chance to surrender and be conquered at no cost to the Tau instead of mindlessly exterminating everything in their path. In most other settings they'd be the generic Evil Empire.
But, unfortunately, most people were too lazy to think about the Tau enough to see these references and took the whole Greater Good thing at face value. And so the Tau got more obvious grimdark thrown on top of their fluff in a desperate attempt to make it so obvious that even the most clueless Ultramarines fanboy couldn't possibly fail to miss it.
No, it was true. It was specified in the original designer's notes, that they were to be an optimistic race to give contrast to the otherwise unrelieved Grimdarkness. GW have since erased these notes from history like Stalin having ex-comrades air-brushed out of official photos.
No, it was also specified by Andy Hoare that the Tau were to slowly slip into grimdarkness like the Imperium.
oldravenman3025 wrote: The Tau started out as somewhat "noblebright". A foolish, naive race that was bright eyed and bushy-tailed, ready to take to the stars. But they didn't count on the fact that not everybody were as egalitarian as they were. And they fit into the category of "enlightened imperialists".
I don't think this was ever true. The Tau were always a thinly-veiled reference to manifest destiny and colonialism and all the horrible things done under those pretenses of virtue. The "greater good" they offer has always been the opportunity to submit to the Tau Empire (where all citizens are equal, but some are more equal than others) with the threat of death if you refuse. Their main "good" quality was (and is) the fact that they're pragmatic enough to use science and engineering instead of religious idiocy, and offer you a chance to surrender and be conquered at no cost to the Tau instead of mindlessly exterminating everything in their path. In most other settings they'd be the generic Evil Empire.
But, unfortunately, most people were too lazy to think about the Tau enough to see these references and took the whole Greater Good thing at face value. And so the Tau got more obvious grimdark thrown on top of their fluff in a desperate attempt to make it so obvious that even the most clueless Ultramarines fanboy couldn't possibly fail to miss it.
No, it was true. It was specified in the original designer's notes, that they were to be an optimistic race to give contrast to the otherwise unrelieved Grimdarkness. GW have since erased these notes from history like Stalin having ex-comrades air-brushed out of official photos.
No, it was also specified by Andy Hoare that the Tau were to slowly slip into grimdarkness like the Imperium.
And like anything else from the kings of inconsistency known as GW, nothing is etched in stone. The Tau were originally supposed to be a contrast to the Imperium, Eldar, etc. Not a perfect society, mind you. But a brighter one. Only because the hardcores got bent out of shape, did the Tau get a fast track to being just another dark faction in a setting full of them.
And any slip into grimderp for the Tau should have been a gradual thing, since they decided to go that route. Not an almost overnight change to Saturday morning cartoon bad guys (i.e. "Imperium Lite"). Before we know it, GeeDubs will probably play up the whole damned "space communist" meme, and we'll start seeing Stalin-esque/North Korean-style propaganda posters in Tau related artwork. It wouldn't surprise me one bit. With catchy slogans like:
"Earth Caste Comrades Looking Ever Forward For The Greater Good!"
"Work For The Greater Good Is It's Own Reward"
"Smash Human Imperialism For The Greater Good!"
"Rejoice, Comrades! Patriotic Fire Caste Heroes Crush The Eldar Viper!"
"Onward, Comrades! End Ork Oppression For The Greater Good!"
I disagree with the ideas of all non-tau being second class citizens.it said something in IA V3 that the Gue'vesa weren't used as cannon fodder but as valuable troops who had a better place in the military. The tau are also very imperialistic and happily do anything as long as it follows the Greater Good.
I don't think this was ever true. The Tau were always a thinly-veiled reference to manifest destiny and colonialism and all the horrible things done under those pretenses of virtue. The "greater good" they offer has always been the opportunity to submit to the Tau Empire (where all citizens are equal, but some are more equal than others) with the threat of death if you refuse. Their main "good" quality was (and is) the fact that they're pragmatic enough to use science and engineering instead of religious idiocy, and offer you a chance to surrender and be conquered at no cost to the Tau instead of mindlessly exterminating everything in their path. In most other settings they'd be the generic Evil Empire.
But, unfortunately, most people were too lazy to think about the Tau enough to see these references and took the whole Greater Good thing at face value. And so the Tau got more obvious grimdark thrown on top of their fluff in a desperate attempt to make it so obvious that even the most clueless Ultramarines fanboy couldn't possibly fail to miss it.
Honestly I was always under this impression as well and I so wish it was true.
Vankraken wrote: Considering the Tau don't really share too much of their technology with their alien allies and they operate as an auxiliary force as shock troopers. It leads me to believe that they tend to use them as needed to fulfill goals but care less about their survival as they do proper Tau. This isn't enemy at the gates penal battalion style waste of life but the Tau definitely value the lives of their own over that of alien auxiliaries. Also considering that Vespids where "convinced" to join the Greater Good through what is basically thought control doesn't speak highly of their concern for the wants of other races.
The 6th edition Codex states that the Tau do not even consider their automated drones to be expendable. You're literally just making stuff up now.
Vankraken wrote: The Greater Good is the Greater Good of the Tau Empire. They are incredibly imperialistic and treat their non Tau subjects as expendable resources and tools to be exploited. Even the common Tau is disposable if its for the benefit of the Empire. Tau propaganda wants everything to think that they are the good guys and they offer the promise of peace and prosperity as an incentive for cooperation which ultimately leads to subjugation. The Ethereal Caste have a means of thought control over their population and censor information that goes against the Greater Good. Socially the Tau Empire is a Utilitarian Fascist government with views of racial superiority and a universe wide manifest destiny. Their morality is that of fulfilling the needs of the Empire over the needs of the individual (except in protecting the lives of the Ethereals) with the Tau race being the priority over other races.
People look at the Tau as the hippie anime space commies which is a distorted view of the veneer they put on to convince others to join their empire and hide the ruthless and cold nature of the Tau leadership. Of course all the mech suits give off the vibe of anime tropes which also tends to irritate people. As you pointed out a lot of people look at the phrase "The Greater Good" and assume that the Tau are suppose to be the good guys. At best the Tau are neutral but honestly they tend to fall into the slightly darker shade of grey than the more true neutral factions like Nids or Orks (Nids want to eat, Orks want to party ).
And still better then 99 % of living in the imperium.
In the imperium unless you are noble born you are either doing backbreaking work in a factory or conscripted to fight the emperors wars.
If you lived in the universe as an average man (not a space marine not an inquistor not a noble ) you would chose living in the Tau empire over living in the imperium every time.
Vankraken wrote: The Greater Good is the Greater Good of the Tau Empire. They are incredibly imperialistic and treat their non Tau subjects as expendable resources and tools to be exploited. Even the common Tau is disposable if its for the benefit of the Empire. Tau propaganda wants everything to think that they are the good guys and they offer the promise of peace and prosperity as an incentive for cooperation which ultimately leads to subjugation. The Ethereal Caste have a means of thought control over their population and censor information that goes against the Greater Good. Socially the Tau Empire is a Utilitarian Fascist government with views of racial superiority and a universe wide manifest destiny. Their morality is that of fulfilling the needs of the Empire over the needs of the individual (except in protecting the lives of the Ethereals) with the Tau race being the priority over other races.
People look at the Tau as the hippie anime space commies which is a distorted view of the veneer they put on to convince others to join their empire and hide the ruthless and cold nature of the Tau leadership. Of course all the mech suits give off the vibe of anime tropes which also tends to irritate people. As you pointed out a lot of people look at the phrase "The Greater Good" and assume that the Tau are suppose to be the good guys. At best the Tau are neutral but honestly they tend to fall into the slightly darker shade of grey than the more true neutral factions like Nids or Orks (Nids want to eat, Orks want to party ).
1) And still better then 99 % of living in the imperium.
2) In the imperium unless you are noble born you are either doing backbreaking work in a factory or conscripted to fight the emperors wars.
3) If you lived in the universe as an average man (not a space marine not an inquistor not a noble ) you would chose living in the Tau empire over living in the imperium every time.
1 = says who? Your Tau propaganda pamphlet I guess...
2 = Good. Awesome chance to die for your God-Emperor. You don't have your life wasted!
3 = surely not. Its a big galaxy and bazillions of living beiings in this 40k verse may never see a space marine or an inquisitior in their life, to know the Tau , a insignificant xeno empire , exist isn't likely for the "average man".
So no choice at all, no knowledge of them and no interest too , plus youre a traitor then and nobody likes them; seems your PoV is based on your "out of universe take on 40k" only...
Vankraken wrote: The Greater Good is the Greater Good of the Tau Empire. They are incredibly imperialistic and treat their non Tau subjects as expendable resources and tools to be exploited. Even the common Tau is disposable if its for the benefit of the Empire. Tau propaganda wants everything to think that they are the good guys and they offer the promise of peace and prosperity as an incentive for cooperation which ultimately leads to subjugation. The Ethereal Caste have a means of thought control over their population and censor information that goes against the Greater Good. Socially the Tau Empire is a Utilitarian Fascist government with views of racial superiority and a universe wide manifest destiny. Their morality is that of fulfilling the needs of the Empire over the needs of the individual (except in protecting the lives of the Ethereals) with the Tau race being the priority over other races.
People look at the Tau as the hippie anime space commies which is a distorted view of the veneer they put on to convince others to join their empire and hide the ruthless and cold nature of the Tau leadership. Of course all the mech suits give off the vibe of anime tropes which also tends to irritate people. As you pointed out a lot of people look at the phrase "The Greater Good" and assume that the Tau are suppose to be the good guys. At best the Tau are neutral but honestly they tend to fall into the slightly darker shade of grey than the more true neutral factions like Nids or Orks (Nids want to eat, Orks want to party ).
And still better then 99 % of living in the imperium.
In the imperium unless you are noble born you are either doing backbreaking work in a factory or conscripted to fight the emperors wars.
If you lived in the universe as an average man (not a space marine not an inquistor not a noble ) you would chose living in the Tau empire over living in the imperium every time.
YOu make the mistake of overgeneralizing the IMperium of Man. YOu have every time of government imaginable in the IoM, from virtual Republics all the way up to authoritarian dictatorships; the Adminstratium doesn't regulate the constituent planets at all (outside of tithes and worshiping the Emperor). YOu have Utopic Meritocracies like Macragge alongside oppressive Hiveworlds where corruption and crime rule the entire planet alike. We just always hear about how oppressive the IoM is because the setting is supposed to be grimdark, and, evidently, having non-corrupt, non-oppressive governments in a grimdark world is heresy, even if said worlds are still doomed to get NOMMED!!! by Nids, consumed by an Ork WAAAAGHHH!!!, conquered by Chaos, or exterminated by Necrons.
Many of the Agri-worlds and Shrine Worlds are very nice places to live. The vast majority of the Imperium lives in hive cities, but not all of them. For many (even non-nobles), the Imperium is a decent place to live.
Vankraken wrote: The Greater Good is the Greater Good of the Tau Empire. They are incredibly imperialistic and treat their non Tau subjects as expendable resources and tools to be exploited. Even the common Tau is disposable if its for the benefit of the Empire. Tau propaganda wants everything to think that they are the good guys and they offer the promise of peace and prosperity as an incentive for cooperation which ultimately leads to subjugation. The Ethereal Caste have a means of thought control over their population and censor information that goes against the Greater Good. Socially the Tau Empire is a Utilitarian Fascist government with views of racial superiority and a universe wide manifest destiny. Their morality is that of fulfilling the needs of the Empire over the needs of the individual (except in protecting the lives of the Ethereals) with the Tau race being the priority over other races.
People look at the Tau as the hippie anime space commies which is a distorted view of the veneer they put on to convince others to join their empire and hide the ruthless and cold nature of the Tau leadership. Of course all the mech suits give off the vibe of anime tropes which also tends to irritate people. As you pointed out a lot of people look at the phrase "The Greater Good" and assume that the Tau are suppose to be the good guys. At best the Tau are neutral but honestly they tend to fall into the slightly darker shade of grey than the more true neutral factions like Nids or Orks (Nids want to eat, Orks want to party ).
And still better then 99 % of living in the imperium.
In the imperium unless you are noble born you are either doing backbreaking work in a factory or conscripted to fight the emperors wars.
If you lived in the universe as an average man (not a space marine not an inquistor not a noble ) you would chose living in the Tau empire over living in the imperium every time.
YOu make the mistake of overgeneralizing the IMperium of Man. YOu have every time of government imaginable in the IoM, from virtual Republics all the way up to authoritarian dictatorships; the Adminstratium doesn't regulate the constituent planets at all (outside of tithes and worshiping the Emperor). YOu have Utopic Meritocracies like Macragge alongside oppressive Hiveworlds where corruption and crime rule the entire planet alike. We just always hear about how oppressive the IoM is because the setting is supposed to be grimdark, and, evidently, having non-corrupt, non-oppressive governments in a grimdark world is heresy, even if said worlds are still doomed to get NOMMED!!! by Nids, consumed by an Ork WAAAAGHHH!!!, conquered by Chaos, or exterminated by Necrons.
Yes there are a few Paradise worlds . a few most average people don't live on those Paradise worlds. For every Macragge (And a space marine run world is not a fair example in my opinion) you have a hundred Nostromo like worlds.
The quality of life on A tau world is on average better then the quality of life on the average imperium world.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
EnTyme wrote: Many of the Agri-worlds and Shrine Worlds are very nice places to live. The vast majority of the Imperium lives in hive cities, but not all of them. For many (even non-nobles), the Imperium is a decent place to live.
How many Agri & shrine worlds are there compared to Hive worlds ?
Unless you are one of the Lucky ones born on an agri/shrine world you are most likely dying slowly doing backbreaking work or fast due to ganger violence or being conscripted to fight the emperors wars.
Some places in the imperium are decent places to live.
Most if not all places in the Tau empire are decent places to live.
My ideal planet to live on in the 40k universe would be a planet cut of from the rest of the universe by warpstorms that the imperium has forgotten about with a decent level of tech but not a full on hive world.
Vankraken wrote: The Greater Good is the Greater Good of the Tau Empire. They are incredibly imperialistic and treat their non Tau subjects as expendable resources and tools to be exploited. Even the common Tau is disposable if its for the benefit of the Empire. Tau propaganda wants everything to think that they are the good guys and they offer the promise of peace and prosperity as an incentive for cooperation which ultimately leads to subjugation. The Ethereal Caste have a means of thought control over their population and censor information that goes against the Greater Good. Socially the Tau Empire is a Utilitarian Fascist government with views of racial superiority and a universe wide manifest destiny. Their morality is that of fulfilling the needs of the Empire over the needs of the individual (except in protecting the lives of the Ethereals) with the Tau race being the priority over other races.
People look at the Tau as the hippie anime space commies which is a distorted view of the veneer they put on to convince others to join their empire and hide the ruthless and cold nature of the Tau leadership. Of course all the mech suits give off the vibe of anime tropes which also tends to irritate people. As you pointed out a lot of people look at the phrase "The Greater Good" and assume that the Tau are suppose to be the good guys. At best the Tau are neutral but honestly they tend to fall into the slightly darker shade of grey than the more true neutral factions like Nids or Orks (Nids want to eat, Orks want to party ).
And still better then 99 % of living in the imperium.
In the imperium unless you are noble born you are either doing backbreaking work in a factory or conscripted to fight the emperors wars.
If you lived in the universe as an average man (not a space marine not an inquistor not a noble ) you would chose living in the Tau empire over living in the imperium every time.
YOu make the mistake of overgeneralizing the IMperium of Man. YOu have every time of government imaginable in the IoM, from virtual Republics all the way up to authoritarian dictatorships; the Adminstratium doesn't regulate the constituent planets at all (outside of tithes and worshiping the Emperor). YOu have Utopic Meritocracies like Macragge alongside oppressive Hiveworlds where corruption and crime rule the entire planet alike. We just always hear about how oppressive the IoM is because the setting is supposed to be grimdark, and, evidently, having non-corrupt, non-oppressive governments in a grimdark world is heresy, even if said worlds are still doomed to get NOMMED!!! by Nids, consumed by an Ork WAAAAGHHH!!!, conquered by Chaos, or exterminated by Necrons.
Yes there are a few Paradise worlds . a few most average people don't live on those Paradise worlds. For every Macragge (And a space marine run world is not a fair example in my opinion) you have a hundred Nostromo like worlds.
The quality of life on A tau world is on average better then the quality of life on the average imperium world.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
EnTyme wrote: Many of the Agri-worlds and Shrine Worlds are very nice places to live. The vast majority of the Imperium lives in hive cities, but not all of them. For many (even non-nobles), the Imperium is a decent place to live.
How many Agri & shrine worlds are there compared to Hive worlds ?
Unless you are one of the Lucky ones born on an agri/shrine world you are most likely dying slowly doing backbreaking work or fast due to ganger violence or being conscripted to fight the emperors wars.
Some places in the imperium are decent places to live.
Most if not all places in the Tau empire are decent places to live.
My ideal planet to live on in the 40k universe would be a planet cut of from the rest of the universe by warpstorms that the imperium has forgotten about with a decent level of tech but not a full on hive world.
There are very few shrine worlds, but the Agri-worlds are meant to feed the Hive Worlds and Forge Worlds, so there are almost as many Agri-worlds as there are Hive/Forge Worlds. The population of each is significantly lower, though. Also, you seem to be ignoring the whole point of this thread: The Tau Empire looks nice and shiny from a distance, but when you look closer, you realize that's it's just from all the grease.
Vankraken wrote: The Greater Good is the Greater Good of the Tau Empire. They are incredibly imperialistic and treat their non Tau subjects as expendable resources and tools to be exploited. Even the common Tau is disposable if its for the benefit of the Empire. Tau propaganda wants everything to think that they are the good guys and they offer the promise of peace and prosperity as an incentive for cooperation which ultimately leads to subjugation. The Ethereal Caste have a means of thought control over their population and censor information that goes against the Greater Good. Socially the Tau Empire is a Utilitarian Fascist government with views of racial superiority and a universe wide manifest destiny. Their morality is that of fulfilling the needs of the Empire over the needs of the individual (except in protecting the lives of the Ethereals) with the Tau race being the priority over other races.
People look at the Tau as the hippie anime space commies which is a distorted view of the veneer they put on to convince others to join their empire and hide the ruthless and cold nature of the Tau leadership. Of course all the mech suits give off the vibe of anime tropes which also tends to irritate people. As you pointed out a lot of people look at the phrase "The Greater Good" and assume that the Tau are suppose to be the good guys. At best the Tau are neutral but honestly they tend to fall into the slightly darker shade of grey than the more true neutral factions like Nids or Orks (Nids want to eat, Orks want to party ).
And still better then 99 % of living in the imperium.
In the imperium unless you are noble born you are either doing backbreaking work in a factory or conscripted to fight the emperors wars.
If you lived in the universe as an average man (not a space marine not an inquistor not a noble ) you would chose living in the Tau empire over living in the imperium every time.
YOu make the mistake of overgeneralizing the IMperium of Man. YOu have every time of government imaginable in the IoM, from virtual Republics all the way up to authoritarian dictatorships; the Adminstratium doesn't regulate the constituent planets at all (outside of tithes and worshiping the Emperor). YOu have Utopic Meritocracies like Macragge alongside oppressive Hiveworlds where corruption and crime rule the entire planet alike. We just always hear about how oppressive the IoM is because the setting is supposed to be grimdark, and, evidently, having non-corrupt, non-oppressive governments in a grimdark world is heresy, even if said worlds are still doomed to get NOMMED!!! by Nids, consumed by an Ork WAAAAGHHH!!!, conquered by Chaos, or exterminated by Necrons.
Yes there are a few Paradise worlds . a few most average people don't live on those Paradise worlds. For every Macragge (And a space marine run world is not a fair example in my opinion) you have a hundred Nostromo like worlds.
The quality of life on A tau world is on average better then the quality of life on the average imperium world.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
EnTyme wrote: Many of the Agri-worlds and Shrine Worlds are very nice places to live. The vast majority of the Imperium lives in hive cities, but not all of them. For many (even non-nobles), the Imperium is a decent place to live.
How many Agri & shrine worlds are there compared to Hive worlds ?
Unless you are one of the Lucky ones born on an agri/shrine world you are most likely dying slowly doing backbreaking work or fast due to ganger violence or being conscripted to fight the emperors wars.
Some places in the imperium are decent places to live.
Most if not all places in the Tau empire are decent places to live.
My ideal planet to live on in the 40k universe would be a planet cut of from the rest of the universe by warpstorms that the imperium has forgotten about with a decent level of tech but not a full on hive world.
3rd Edition BRB says that there are 550,000 Civilized and Agri-Worlds, compared to 140,000 Hive Worlds. Civilized worlds (again) including Utopias, Socialist governmnets (akin to what, say, the Brits have), brutal dictatorships, and everything in between. Some of these worlds are gak places to live, but many of them are just fine.
Co'tor Shas wrote: I think it's more a non-viable distopia thing. The tau empire is great... [i[if[/i] you just do what you are told, don't question authority, ect.
Co'tor Shas wrote: I think it's more a non-viable distopia thing. The tau empire is great... [i[if[/i] you just do what you are told, don't question authority, ect.
Ah, yes, glorious opinions, lots of fun. Any fluff to back it up, though?
Co'tor Shas wrote: I think it's more a non-viable distopia thing. The tau empire is great... [i[if[/i] you just do what you are told, don't question authority, ect.
Ah, yes, glorious opinions, lots of fun. Any fluff to back it up, though?
I'm a way from my books at the moment, but I recall a quote from the 6th edition saying that when tau take over worlds they get cleaner air and water, more efficiency, ect. I'll have to go get it when I get home.
And what I'm talking about there is not "I think this is what happens" and more how I think it was designed to look from a narrative perspective.
Pumpkin wrote: Context. Even though the Tau are far from being truly good, the heretic-burning, xenos-eradicating, planetary genocide-loving Imperium is an order of magnitude worse.
The Imperium of Man is a grisly nightmare state of grimdark proportions. At least there's a bit of nuance to the Tau. I think the similarly subtle Eldar make for a far more interesting comparison to them.
No, the Tau are no better than the Imperium. Worse, actually, because at least the Imperium has the sense to be human.
Those heretics, xenos and genocided planets? They had it coming. Deserved everything that happened to them.
Pumpkin wrote: Context. Even though the Tau are far from being truly good, the heretic-burning, xenos-eradicating, planetary genocide-loving Imperium is an order of magnitude worse.
The Imperium of Man is a grisly nightmare state of grimdark proportions. At least there's a bit of nuance to the Tau. I think the similarly subtle Eldar make for a far more interesting comparison to them.
No, the Tau are no better than the Imperium. Worse, actually, because at least the Imperium has the sense to be human.
Those heretics, xenos and genocided planets? They had it coming. Deserved everything that happened to them.
hm.. so being human means that individuals count nothing... you can get turned into a brainless machine and ....
its hard to define this as good. especialy if you consider that the tau are less harmfull to the ones that obey the order.
... _ghost_, you realise that as far as the Tau are concerned, individuals mean nothing as well, right?
The whole philosophy of "For the Greater Good" demands, as its core tenet, that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one, and that every individual who subscribes to it must be willing at any moment to make the ultimate sacrifice for the rest of society.
Vankraken wrote: The latest codex says they use them for shock troopers.
Indeed - tau would be pretty terrible in thst role. Kroot have far better native skills, fieldcraft, are more aggressive, and better up close and personal when the knifes come out (they used to be ws4, s4 and had 2 attacks each).
You slso need to remember the tau method of war - they shoot the crap out of whatever bad guys are in front of them, and then send in shock troops to mop up. I'd rather be a kroot than a guardsman!
Vankraken wrote: it also talks about how initially the Vespids didn't want to convert to the Tau Empire but some "custom-made communication headsets" helped them become suddenly and completely complaint in joining the Greater Good.
indeed - neither could understand the other, hence the translation helms. Whether it's mind control or the vespids seeing the light is up to you. The lore can be read both ways.
Vankraken wrote: Also just looking at the models you see Kroot with no armor using their crude guns with pulse rounds that the Tau gave them.
The kroot don't actually want hi tech. It's in their lore - they once had an advanced empire, reached for the stars, lost it to the orks, got bailed out by the tau. General opinion was this technology thing didn't work too well, if living in a nest of regurgitated wood,was good enough for my ancestors, it's good enough for me. It's why the kroot generally revere both their ancestors and the old ways, and their rifles harken back to that. They're also great at living off the land and hi tech just seems to get in the way of their natural skills- thry really don't need it.
And by the way, the slugs the tau give them for their kroot rifles put them almost on the same level as boltguns and heavy stub era (.50cal equivelants) going by stats. That's far from shabby for a single shot breech loader.
Vankraken wrote: . Only the Shapers can take standard Tau weapons like the Pulse Rifle or Pulse Carbine. In all of the material and models out there we don't see any Vespid or Kroot battle suits in use or any of their races in higher levels of leadership outside their own auxillary forces.
Do they need battlesuits? Kroot have no need or desire for them, and vespids already have the speed and tau built ray guns. Suits are rare and precious, expensive to build and generally seen as a symbol of greatness - their use is severely restricted even amongst the tau. Not handing these to the auxiliaries isn't as big a deal as you think...
And Well, it's the tau empire, isn't it. Makes sense thst tau armies are led by tau. When you're on a kroot world however, the shaper council leads, on vespidia, it's their matriarchs.
_ghost_ wrote: hm.. so being human means that individuals count nothing... you can get turned into a brainless machine and ....
its hard to define this as good. especialy if you consider that the tau are less harmfull to the ones that obey the order.
The whole Greater Good aspect of the Tau doesn't seem like much of a bad deal, especially seeing as how that's essentially how the Imperium see things, anyway, minus the Imperium's complete and utter indifference towards their expendable serfs.
From the massive-scale conscriptions, to entire planets being "cleansed" because one dumb kid took sweets from a daemon, to the fact that the Imperium pretty much has the equivalent of a caste-based society, anyway, freedom in the Imperium doesn't really sound all that free in practice.
Unless you're very, very lucky, of course. I like to imagine how neat it would be to live out your entire life as governor of some idyllic agrarian world, which just so happens to not be invaded by aliens or hassled by the Inquisition during your lifetime. 'Cos no matter the grimdarkness, you know there's always that one lucky git, eh?
Co'tor Shas wrote: I think it's more a non-viable distopia thing. The tau empire is great... [i[if[/i] you just do what you are told, don't question authority, ect.
Ah, yes, glorious opinions, lots of fun. Any fluff to back it up, though?
Damocles one of the stories in the novel is from the perspective of a human gue,vesa .
When trying to explain the 40K factions to my family, including the kids I'm trying to get into the hobby, I tell them that Tau are good guys because they are trying to build stuff in the galaxy, not tear things down. In that same vein, I see the Imperium as good guys, as are the Eldar and Necrons. To me the only real "bad" factions would be Chaos and Dark Eldar, because they aim to cause suffering and destruction at all levels. Orks are jut looking for a good fight at everyone else's expense, and Tyranids are just really hungry. Granted, you will have exceptions within each faction that will be more "good" or "bad" than the rest of their faction, but that's where the flavor is within the stories. When something weird happens within a faction, when someone goes against convention, that's when the interesting stuff can begin.
Personally, I like the story of O'Shovah, Commander Farsight, in the story of the Tau. For however great the "Greater Good" is, not even one of the favored sons of the Fire Caste can blindly follow it without eventually questioning it. Commander Farsight has certainly made things interesting for the Tau, and one has to wonder if there have been or will be any other similar rebellions within the Tau Empire?
The Orks are more like a giant collection of rednecks, chavs, glopniks, and drunken hellraisers traveling from one party to another, driving monster trucks and riding choppers armed with automatic weapons. In short, pure awesomeness.
The 'Nids are just here for the "all you can eat for $9.99" buffet.
BunkhouseBuster wrote: When trying to explain the 40K factions to my family, including the kids I'm trying to get into the hobby, I tell them that Tau are good guys because they are trying to build stuff in the galaxy, not tear things down. In that same vein, I see the Imperium as good guys, as are the Eldar and Necrons. To me the only real "bad" factions would be Chaos and Dark Eldar, because they aim to cause suffering and destruction at all levels. Orks are jut looking for a good fight at everyone else's expense, and Tyranids are just really hungry. Granted, you will have exceptions within each faction that will be more "good" or "bad" than the rest of their faction, but that's where the flavor is within the stories. When something weird happens within a faction, when someone goes against convention, that's when the interesting stuff can begin.
Personally, I like the story of O'Shovah, Commander Farsight, in the story of the Tau. For however great the "Greater Good" is, not even one of the favored sons of the Fire Caste can blindly follow it without eventually questioning it. Commander Farsight has certainly made things interesting for the Tau, and one has to wonder if there have been or will be any other similar rebellions within the Tau Empire?
Your looking at him. Well more of an exile really. I'm repainting my armies left shoulder pads FSE Red in memory of my Commander joining him. My Commander devoted his life to the Tau against all odds and adversity, but they seen too much Farsight in him. On the eve of his promotion to Commander when he was going to be the Shas'o in charge of the fire caste of a new colony ship the Ethereals demanded he take his own life. Confused why they would want this to happen he refuses and goes on the run.
My Commander has had a nearly flawless record for victory. Shas'o Kel'shan Monat'Ka'ra Y'he'Korst'la Cal'Ro. Translates to Commander Loner-Exile Tyranid-Reaper Tough-Mind from Kel'shan. Although usually just shortened to Shas'o Monat or lone one. One of the few notable Shas'o deployed in the east along with Kais.
That seems oddly out of character for the Ethereals as I understand them. They've always been more presented as favouring efficient use of resources than instant elimination of threats - far more likely to send him off into an unwinnable situation that will buy time for a different operation than order him to simply kill himself.
Ethereals are evil, power-hungry and manipulative, but they aren't stupid.
BunkhouseBuster wrote: When something weird happens within a faction, when someone goes against convention, that's when the interesting stuff can begin.
Personally, I like the story of O'Shovah, Commander Farsight, in the story of the Tau. For however great the "Greater Good" is, not even one of the favored sons of the Fire Caste can blindly follow it without eventually questioning it. Commander Farsight has certainly made things interesting for the Tau, and one has to wonder if there have been or will be any other similar rebellions within the Tau Empire?
The problem with Farsight is that his fluff relies on bulldozing all 12-13 years of tau fluff that predates the (god-awful) Farsight Enclaves supplement, because the actual Tau Empire wasn't evil, stupid or incompetent enough for Farsight to be the shining anime fan Mary Sue that the uncredited hack writer needed him to be.
In place of the interesting fluff that made the Tau Empire a unique and compelling faction, steeped in Confucianism, Shinto and utilitarianism, we have an absurd persecution fantasy, where what was once an actual faction in 40k is reduced to a mere foil to a one-dimensional immortal samurai whose only character flaw is that he is too good.
A lot of the new fluff seeks to leave it an entirely hollow faction with no redeeming qualities to act as a foil to idiotic characters or the author's half-hearted, edgy ideological posturing (DAE Greater Good is really Greater BAD???). This is the opposite of interesting.
I kinda prefer the Tau as they where first presented, as an almost too good to be true pastiche of the Federation from Star Trek. A bright and idealistic race trying to incorporate other alien races into a cooperative government for the benefit of all. Making them more grimdark and shady only lessens the contrast to the rest of 40k, the contrast that makes them more interesting.
Of course I don't think that the Imperium is as oppressive and grimdark as the tagline likes to present. Black Library tends to portray a more nuanced depiction of life under the Imperium. Eisenhorn, Gaunt's Ghosts, Ciaphas Cain and other present depictions of Imperial worlds that aren't oppressive nightmarish hellholes. Eisenhorn for example, lives on a rather pastoral civilized world reminiscent of England. Perlia for example, seems like a pretty decent place to live, being an obvious analogue to late 19th century England.
Gree wrote: I kinda prefer the Tau as they where first presented, as an almost too good to be true pastiche of the Federation from Star Trek. A bright and idealistic race trying to incorporate other alien races into a cooperative government for the benefit of all. Making them more grimdark and shady only lessens the contrast to the rest of 40k, the contrast that makes them more interesting.
I respect your view but I have to disagree. Having a more "good" faction takes away from the possibility that factions like Orks or Tyranids are morally grey compared to the rest of the shades of black that every other faction in 40k is. A race of bugs that wants to omm nom nom you to death or a race of hooligans who can't understand that others don't find fighting to be fun are more in the right than everyone else just exemplifies the grimdark nature of 40k. Having a true good guy takes away from the hopelessness and the utter despair that makes the setting what it is.
I respect your view but I have to disagree. Having a more "good" faction takes away from the possibility that factions like Orks or Tyranids are morally grey compared to the rest of the shades of black that every other faction in 40k is. A race of bugs that wants to omm nom nom you to death or a race of hooligans who can't understand that others don't find fighting to be fun are more in the right than everyone else just exemplifies the grimdark nature of 40k. Having a true good guy takes away from the hopelessness and the utter despair that makes the setting what it is.
Well if you are asking. I don't consider Orks or Tyranids to be morally gray at all. They might not be evil in the same way as Chaos might be, but they are still relentlessly hostile and inimical to all life. I consider the Imperium and Eldar to be far more sympathetic, which is why I play Space Marines in the first place.
I respect your view but I have to disagree. Having a more "good" faction takes away from the possibility that factions like Orks or Tyranids are morally grey compared to the rest of the shades of black that every other faction in 40k is. A race of bugs that wants to omm nom nom you to death or a race of hooligans who can't understand that others don't find fighting to be fun are more in the right than everyone else just exemplifies the grimdark nature of 40k. Having a true good guy takes away from the hopelessness and the utter despair that makes the setting what it is.
Well if you are asking. I don't consider Orks or Tyranids to be morally gray at all. They might not be evil in the same way as Chaos might be, but they are still relentlessly hostile and inimical to all life. I consider the Imperium and Eldar to be far more sympathetic, which is why I play Space Marines in the first place.
I agree with the assessment of Tyranids as being more a force of nature than anything else. I wouldn't call a swarm of locusts "hostile" for decimating a crop, but nor would I sympathize with them. They are just doing what locusts do.
I think the difference between the locusts and the Tyranids are that the locusts are dumb animals. The Hive Mind is repeatedly indicated to be a sort of vast malign intelligence that can adapt and plan. Tyranids are not dumb animals.
Furyou Miko wrote: That seems oddly out of character for the Ethereals as I understand them. They've always been more presented as favouring efficient use of resources than instant elimination of threats - far more likely to send him off into an unwinnable situation that will buy time for a different operation than order him to simply kill himself.
Ethereals are evil, power-hungry and manipulative, but they aren't stupid.
I did the impossible. On my last mission my Commander was killed and I had to take over as the ranking officer when I was only a Shas'el. There was a small group of Ethereals who don't want me dead but I don't know that. They aren't enough to stop the majority this time. All my commanders life they sent him into more and more dangerous situations they expected him to die in. At this point after years their subtle tricks weren't working and he was becoming a symbol to the Tau of Kel'shan considering the extraordinary feats needed to make it to Shas'o. It's an act of desperation on their part.
Furyou Miko wrote: That seems oddly out of character for the Ethereals as I understand them. They've always been more presented as favouring efficient use of resources than instant elimination of threats - far more likely to send him off into an unwinnable situation that will buy time for a different operation than order him to simply kill himself.
Ethereals are evil, power-hungry and manipulative, but they aren't stupid.
I did the impossible. On my last mission my Commander was killed and I had to take over as the ranking officer when I was only a Shas'el. There was a small group of Ethereals who don't want me dead but I don't know that. They aren't enough to stop the majority this time. All my commanders life they sent him into more and more dangerous situations they expected him to die in. At this point after years their subtle tricks weren't working and he was becoming a symbol to the Tau of Kel'shan considering the extraordinary feats needed to make it to Shas'o. It's an act of desperation on their part.
Unfortunately, your army is not part of the actual fluff any more than my army is for Cadians or Skitarii or Raptors.
Gree wrote: I think the difference between the locusts and the Tyranids are that the locusts are dumb animals. The Hive Mind is repeatedly indicated to be a sort of vast malign intelligence that can adapt and plan. Tyranids are not dumb animals.
At the very least, you could see that they aren't malicious, but rather slaves to something far more powerful than they are. This is one of the problems games featuring a swarm race often have. In game terms, you are right about the Hive Mind being a seemingly malevolent entity. In actuality, there is no such thing as a "Hive Mind" in nature. The correct term would be "swarm intelligence" and it refers to species like ants and bees that do have individual will, but still work off of a sort of collective consciousness working for the good of the colony/hive. It's actually far closer to the idealistic interpretation of the Tau's "Greater Good" than the idea of a single entity controlling the swarm.
Furyou Miko wrote: That seems oddly out of character for the Ethereals as I understand them. They've always been more presented as favouring efficient use of resources than instant elimination of threats - far more likely to send him off into an unwinnable situation that will buy time for a different operation than order him to simply kill himself.
Ethereals are evil, power-hungry and manipulative, but they aren't stupid.
I did the impossible. On my last mission my Commander was killed and I had to take over as the ranking officer when I was only a Shas'el. There was a small group of Ethereals who don't want me dead but I don't know that. They aren't enough to stop the majority this time. All my commanders life they sent him into more and more dangerous situations they expected him to die in. At this point after years their subtle tricks weren't working and he was becoming a symbol to the Tau of Kel'shan considering the extraordinary feats needed to make it to Shas'o. It's an act of desperation on their part.
Unfortunately, your army is not part of the actual fluff any more than my army is for Cadians or Skitarii or Raptors.
So? Why can't I take time to enjoy having a well written background? I only took me a few hours to write all of this and get it on paper. I'm writing a 40k fanfiction here not some epic novel lol. So if the fluff ever does change I'll adapt my story if possible (what I want to happen) or if for some reason it becomes impossible like the world gets blown up I'll accept that.
Furyou Miko wrote: That seems oddly out of character for the Ethereals as I understand them. They've always been more presented as favouring efficient use of resources than instant elimination of threats - far more likely to send him off into an unwinnable situation that will buy time for a different operation than order him to simply kill himself.
Ethereals are evil, power-hungry and manipulative, but they aren't stupid.
I did the impossible. On my last mission my Commander was killed and I had to take over as the ranking officer when I was only a Shas'el. There was a small group of Ethereals who don't want me dead but I don't know that. They aren't enough to stop the majority this time. All my commanders life they sent him into more and more dangerous situations they expected him to die in. At this point after years their subtle tricks weren't working and he was becoming a symbol to the Tau of Kel'shan considering the extraordinary feats needed to make it to Shas'o. It's an act of desperation on their part.
Unfortunately, your army is not part of the actual fluff any more than my army is for Cadians or Skitarii or Raptors.
So? Why can't I take time to enjoy having a well written background? I only took me a few hours to write all of this and get it on paper. I'm writing a 40k fanfiction here not some epic novel lol. So if the fluff ever does change I'll adapt my story if possible (what I want to happen) or if for some reason it becomes impossible like the world gets blown up I'll accept that.
Because the 40k background forum isn't the place for fan fiction. That's the Dakka Fiction forum.
Notice how I didn't say anything about you shouldn't take the time to make your own background material or anything like that. Just understand that the 40k Background forum is that: for 40k Background. It's not for head-canon or things of that nature.
Furyou Miko wrote: I disagree. The 40k background forum is the perfect place to ask about potential "canon" conflicts with your own work.
You really need to read the post I was replying to.
There's a difference between "Does X mesh well with the current fluff, and if not how can I make it mesh?" and "This is my fluff but I'm not saying it's my fluff, instead presenting it with no comment as fluff in a discussion about the fluff."
You butted into my reply Kan and started asking me about it and getting mad at me despite me never having any intention of showing it, especially to you.
If you've got a problem its only your own at this point. What are you going to report me for? Posting?
Also your right Furyou. That is a legitimate topic of discussion.
Gamgee wrote: You butted into my reply Kan and started asking me about it and getting mad at me despite me never having any intention of showing it, especially to you.
You understand that when you reply in a public forum there is no such thing as "butting in", right? I also didn't "ask" you about anything or "get mad" at you. You posted your fluff. I simply commented that it's not really appropriate for a background discussion without you specifically noting that it's your fluff.
Then you were mistaken to ever think it was official lore. If your aware of my reputation here then you know there's a great deal of posters that don't like me. I'm naturally going to be on guard when approached with such a tone. I was replying to that fellow there about how I used to play Tau Empire and then switched to FSE and worked it into my commanders background. Apparently I have to explicitly explain this. Then you took offense that this isn't the fan fiction forum as if I was hogging the entire thread with my one post in a single reply to him. Like I said if your mad or annoyed you've only got yourself to blame.
As a matter of fact you taking offense with one random post has now caused this topic to derail far more. Are you going to stick to your own implied advice (taking discussions to where they properly belong) and save this for the private messages? It's rather ironic wouldn't you say? Anyways I don't really care anymore message me if I really bothered you that much.
Gamgee wrote: Then you were mistaken to ever think it was official lore. If your aware of my reputation here then you know there's a great deal of posters that don't like me. I'm naturally going to be on guard when approached with such a tone. I was replying to that fellow there about how I used to play Tau Empire and then switched to FSE and worked it into my commanders background. Apparently I have to explicitly explain this. Then you took offense that this isn't the fan fiction forum as if I was hogging the entire thread with my one post in a single reply to him. Like I said if your mad or annoyed you've only got yourself to blame.
As a matter of fact you taking offense with one random post has now caused this topic to derail far more. Are you going to stick to your own implied advice (taking discussions to where they properly belong) and save this for the private messages? It's rather ironic wouldn't you say? Anyways I don't really care anymore message me if I really bothered you that much.
The person you were replying to was asking a canon example. Then you came in with your head-canon. Who cares let it go.
I realize that but can't I just say that as light chat? Does everything have to be so strict and serious? If everyone realizes I'm neither a real life Tau or posting canon stuff why even reply to me if you have no interest in me? It's not like I ever claimed to be posting canon stuff and I wasn't spamming either. So why get mad?
Do I have to spell this all out for you? Apparently yes.
Okay If I must have the stick inserted up my ass I would really like a nice hardwood I hear good things about them. Though a few of my friends speak wonders about plastic if its been filed down.
Vankraken wrote: Tau propaganda wants everything to think that they are the good guys and they offer the promise of peace and prosperity as an incentive for cooperation which ultimately leads to subjugation. The Ethereal Caste have a means of thought control over their population and censor information that goes against the Greater Good.
But even if it's just propaganda, the fact that the average Tau believes in the propaganda - believes in the idea of peaceful coexistence and cooperation between species - sets them well above every other faction, culturally. Vespids and humans might not have equal rights in the empire, but the ideology of interspecies unity is firmly in place. They at least have that as a starting place, and the rest will follow.
The real horror about the Tau is that it won't follow. They're basically doomed. Their whole empire has the population equivalent of an Imperial hive world. They can't hope to stand against their enemies, and worse yet, they have human psykers living among them and are completely ignorant of the Warp, with no way to fight the demon incursions and Warp storms that are sure to follow. They're dead and they don't even know it, and that makes them one of the grimmest things in the setting IMO.
Vankraken wrote: Tau propaganda wants everything to think that they are the good guys and they offer the promise of peace and prosperity as an incentive for cooperation which ultimately leads to subjugation. The Ethereal Caste have a means of thought control over their population and censor information that goes against the Greater Good.
But even if it's just propaganda, the fact that the average Tau believes in the propaganda - believes in the idea of peaceful coexistence and cooperation between species - sets them well above every other faction, culturally. Vespids and humans might not have equal rights in the empire, but the ideology of interspecies unity is firmly in place. They at least have that as a starting place, and the rest will follow.
The real horror about the Tau is that it won't follow. They're basically doomed. Their whole empire has the population equivalent of an Imperial hive world. They can't hope to stand against their enemies, and worse yet, they have human psykers living among them and are completely ignorant of the Warp, with no way to fight the demon incursions and Warp storms that are sure to follow. They're dead and they don't even know it, and that makes them one of the grimmest things in the setting IMO.
The Ethereals are well aware of the Warp. Possibly some among the Earth and Fire Castes, as well (if they hadn't all been executed, shipped off to a Tau "Happy Camp", or given a free lobotomy). And the Tau have had enough experience fighting psykers to recognize it, IF (and that is a big IF) the leadership hasn't suppressed all info regarding psykers.
Fighting the horrors of the Warp and losing badly, I can agree with. Their leaders are foolishly occupied with taking more real estate from an overstretched Imperium under siege on key fronts. The Enclaves are probably better prepared to deal with Chaos than most give them credit for. Farsight isn't a fool by no means, and recognizes the threat of the Ruinous Powers. If anybody can pull the Empire's fat out of the fire in a war with Chaos, it would be Farsight.
Xenoesis wrote: ...Their whole empire has the population equivalent of an Imperial hive world.
Though I know that is probably just exaggeration for effect (and I don't have an express problem with the broader point), it is one of the things that gets me. The exact size of the Tau Empire and their population numbers are really hard to pin down; however since they are building space stations capable of housing the "population of a continent sized city" (so 10s of Billions), we are at least talking an order of magnitude larger than "an Imperial Hive World" for their entire empire.
Xenoesis wrote: ...Their whole empire has the population equivalent of an Imperial hive world.
Though I know that is probably just exaggeration for effect (and I don't have an express problem with the broader point), it is one of the things that gets me. The exact size of the Tau Empire and their population numbers are really hard to pin down; however since they are building space stations capable of housing the "population of a continent sized city" (so 10s of Billions), we are at least talking an order of magnitude larger than "an Imperial Hive World" for their entire empire.
And they have captured a hive city (although a small one). They were suitably aghast.
).
