I've been watching and reading bat reps looking for verifiable good tactics for astra militarum armies, but have really been struggling to find anything useful, practically all the bat reps i've watched for AM armies have lost, and the few victories I've seen have been largely due to complete luck ( single tank shots taking out entire key enemy units, etc...) or due to allied armies, being more effective
i do not want to rely on allies, although i dont mind having a small number of allies, but I dont consider a good tactic to use half another army
I am aware that the current meta is fairly harsh on astra militarum, and that we are due for a new codex with rules / points / formation updates which may (hopefully) help
however in the meantime, can anyone point me to some batreps / vids of solid astra militarum tactics? I'm not so much looking for just typed suggestions as I am bat reps or vids so that i can watch the fights unfold and see how things play out in different situations to actually see what's effective and when, not just theory
- Large blob of guards with power axe and melta bomb sarges supported with an inquisitor, priest, psy support sometimes and VSG.
- Conscripts with priests or comissars. Best tarpit ever. Unless you get the priest sniped out.
- Artillery formation. s9 ap2 ignore cover, re-rolling scatters.
- Psycher formation. Best daemon factory in the game. Works extremely well with VSG also.
- Decurion comsquad special weapons + allied pods spam. Ignore cover/tl special weapons. Suicide comsquads. They are strong in taking out whatever needed. Very unfluffy, however. And requires allied pods.
This is struff that is strong. Other things that are handy and pretty potent:
- Different better LR variants like eradicator. Basically, all tanks other than LRBT are fine. Demolisher and exterminator are too overcosted for my taste though.
- Sentinels are nice. Invaluable tarpits and scouts. New formation makes them even better.
- Min ratlings. Early game midfield pointholders. Something that guard is awful at. They help a bit.
- Min scions deepstriking special weapons. While not very reliable and quite costly, they're quite helpful in some lists.
IG often loose due to 5-th edition style armies. You see, the game has changed a lot since than. Back in 5-th edition, ig was primarily a very static gunline army with a lot of vehicles. And eternal war missions favor static gunlines. But than 6-th came and made vehicles worse. And 7-th made static gunlines worse. So, old style armies end up being outdated like an ork walker list. And the codex seems to favor that old trench-oriented warfare where the enemy is supposed to come for you when the rulebook clearly favors constant mobility with no real need of engaging the opponent asap. That makes list-building a much tougher thing. But it can still be done if you take what works.
a well built blob squad is quite a force to be reckoned with. Nigh unkillable and very very good damage output.
I have said elsewhere that 40 Guardsman (4x Lascannons, 4 x Meltabombs, 4 x Power axes) + 3 Priests + 3 Level 2 Psykers is golden.
The Eradicator is very good.
One last point. The actual Strategy for Ig played this way should not be a gunline that stands back. if you go this way, you will want to project your power forward.
In my (purely) IG army i have two blobs. I push them forward hard, leaving the Lascannon in the back of the unit unmoving so that they can still fire every turn.
How you fill the army out from there is your call. But strategically the Imperial Guard stagnant gunline thing is a fairly iffy idea. It certainly isnt undoable but an aggressive force fits the Objective heavy way 7th Edition works and while walking isnt fast, IG have orders that can let you fire and run so there is even an answer to the speed thing if need be.
I actually play a Militarum Tempestus force that has IG allies and i included the Blob in that also. It's good.
140 pts give you 9 hb shots and s6 ap4 ignore cover large blast. There's a number of competitive units that have cover or invuls on par or even better that their armor. And against those units, a s6 ap4 ignore cover blast is not much worse or even better than s10 ap2 blast but than you have hb to back you up.
This tank can force saves quite effectively, is relatively well priced for what you get and has it's niche. What's not to like?
otherwise looks like solid ideas on paper / in theory
does anyone have a battle rep where such strategies are used effectively tho... these were all things I was looking for in use in a battle rep so i could see them in use in a real game, but so far I cant find crud for astra militarum battle reps that are worth a crap
I think most successful AM armies I know rely on A: Blobs (although they need allies to be really good for Hit and Run, armour, psychic support goodies) and B: Pask in a Punisher as Warlord and C: Wyverns and indeed allies.
Pure AM is quite difficult because you can't really implement creative movement skills to mitigate inferior material since it is a rather static approach. Most players forget to push towards the objectives and get cornered and torn to pieces. So you need ideas to get up the field and win there. You can either boost a blob and then move it up and jam everything there or you have allied pods or something similar.
-Nazdreg- wrote: I think most successful AM armies I know rely on A: Blobs (although they need allies to be really good for Hit and Run, armour, psychic support goodies) and B: Pask in a Punisher as Warlord and C: Wyverns and indeed allies.
Pure AM is quite difficult because you can't really implement creative movement skills to mitigate inferior material since it is a rather static approach. Most players forget to push towards the objectives and get cornered and torn to pieces. So you need ideas to get up the field and win there. You can either boost a blob and then move it up and jam everything there or you have allied pods or something similar.
This pretty much hits the nail on the head with the biggest weakness of pure Astra Militarum compared to other armies. It is too static and slow overall. With the exception of their flyers and Hellhound variants, there isn't really much in the codex than can move around the table quickly. Pretty much all the other armies can outmaneuver them in some way.
I still mourn the loss of the penal legions and scouting/infiltrating/outflanking stormtroopers (and Harker for that matter). Since I prefer a Tallarn approach to AM the current style is very dissatisfying for me. I don't like the giant blobs and the "sit-hammer" gameplay and look for small mobile elements constantly on the move for opportunities instead. I would love a Tallarn formation with scout or infiltrate special rules.
I've recently been using Centaur Carriers with DKK Engineer squads as fast objective grabbers. There are definite setbacks in their very flimsy durability, but if you take 3 or 4 of them it remains relatively cheap and you will have enough points left over for a big, scary blob and big, scary guns.
It's not the first time, I read that and the previous poster also wrote it.
But really, I do not get it.
OK, the Eradicator is dirt cheap, but then?
S6 AP4 won't kill any vehicule, it will even suffer to glance those that can jink.
It won't neither kill all the Eldar Motojet, White Scars, Ravenwing out there, who can rely on their svg3+.
So, yes it will kill easily pathfinder or Space Marine Scout hidden behind wall, but that's it.
You shouldn't dismiss tings with the word "just". the galaxy is actually filled with times you wish you had it.
For example, Eldar Seer Council can get 2+ cover saves and so can Tau Optimized Stealth Cadres. Dropping that down to a normal 3+ is significant. Even a battle cannon doesnt daunt those kinds of saves.
The Tau Empires Obsec units, the ones who can take points from you, are all susceptible t it.
Dark Angels can be INCREDIBLY difficult to kill with their new formation in the first round in which they move. Such a tank equalizes that again.
The laundry list of things it will equalize is actually pretty long.
Personally, looking at it from the outside, I think I'd prefer the Executionner over the Eradicator. The Wyvern is already pretty effective as an infantry killer.
I've had success with a blob style with allies and forgeworld (Rapier batteries and Earthshakers, which I can make ignore cover)
Using my firepower to strip enemy mobile elements I can then compete in the objective game.
I much prefer the Earthshaker with Fire on my Target to the Eradicator.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For the Earthshakers, I attach an Ordo Xenos inquisitor with Conversion Beamer. This grants LD10 for orders, and I can fire the Beamer at a target then switch to Barrage for the Earthshaker for a S9 AP3 Ifnore Cover pie plate that almost never misses.
If you're willing to sacrifice some points and not get as much firepower, platoon infantry squads in a Taurox for 100 points a pop for mobile MSU. If you can (attempt) to overwhelm enemy front lines with mech vets, warlord Pask with camo/bullgryns, hellhound variants, power blobs, or whatever else floats your goat, the enemy will likely aim for whatever is being shoved into his/her face, while the infantry sit back, plinking away with the tlac whilst ip sitting on objectives. This is just my take, I have yet to test it against more than one or two armies.
You have three options
1) an infantry Cadian battle group with attached psyker group summoning lots of demons
2) a armoured company chimera autocannon spam such as moretanks list
3) maybe a Cadian battle company tank lost with artillery spam
Greetings, allow me to offer some personal insight to the conversation.
Firstly, Guard Blob Squads. They are decent at tarpitting and 'blocking' areas from fast, hard hitting units. However without some serious support in the form of an allied Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, or a Primaris Psyker, with either a Priest or Commissar (Preferably both) this squad will be picked up quickly and with little to no damage done. It's expensive (Costing at minimum 350+ points with the squad and all attached character models + upgrades) and in a competitive environment will *Never* do anything but die quickly and ignobly. Even if you get lucky and get a good Psyker power roll and manage to cast for a 4+ Invulnerable save, they still drop like flies to massed high strength fire and blasts. This squad's two redeeming qualities are that if someone is dumb enough to charge it, it will last a good long while thanks to Priest Hymns (When they are successfully rolled) and sheer number of bodies offers some resiliency in melee, and some board control/area denial for objectives. Their downsides do not make up for this however, as the squad crumples versus any massed shooting. You'll basically never make your points back with them at a highly competitive level or event.
The troops unit I tend to have the most success with are Veteran guardsmen in a Chimera (Or Taurox, though I feel the Chimera is superior). A full squad with a few special weapons (I run a pair of melta guns and a Grenade Launcher/Flamer as the third weapon), Krak Grenades, and a Chimera will often run you well under 200 points. The squad above would be 160 points. That's 10 BS:4 guardsmen with two melta shots, one grenade (Or Flamer Template) shot, and one Krak Grenade thrown out to 8" if in range, Plus the Chimera's weapons. With paired Plasma Guns it's 170 points, and if you want to spring for Carapace Armor, or Meltabombs on the squad along with a single Demolition Charge, the squad still stays at or just under 200 points.
The Chimera makes them fairly mobile compared to Blob Squads, keeps them alive long enough to generally shoot something important most days, and for the cost of a "Good" Blob Squad and all attached Characters (Primaris Psyker and/or Inquisitor, Commissar and Priest, generally 325 to 350 points minium) you can get at least two squads and their Chimera transports, I generally opt to go that route.
Eradicator Leman Russes are excellent choices, as are Executioners, Exterminators, and Punishers. I also enjoy Vanquishers as well but they are not the most competitive option.
Just offering my thoughts on that. Take it easy & I hope it helps.
I still feel like a blob is a little more resilient. A vet squad with all those upgrades runs close to 200 points for only 10 guys. For the same price you can get 30 guys with lascannons or autocannons. I guess I just prefer quantity over quality.
TwiG wrote: I still feel like a blob is a little more resilient. A vet squad with all those upgrades runs close to 200 points for only 10 guys. For the same price you can get 30 guys with lascannons or autocannons. I guess I just prefer quantity over quality.
It's not 10 guys vs. 30 guys, it's 10 guys with 3x special weapons and a AV:12 front vehicle with 2x heavy weapons on it vs. 30 guys. Also bear in mind that, with upgrades, you can get two Veteran squads, one of which is in a Transport, for the cost of 3 Infantry Platoons.
Here's the math.
Vet Squad w/ 2x Plasma, a Grenade Launcher or Flamer, and Krak Grenades inside of a basic Chimera = 170 points
That gets you 4 plasma shots, a Grenade Launcher or Flamer Template shot, and a Krak Grenade toss and supporting lasguns at BS:4, plus at least one Heavy Bolter/Multilaser turret, with a second Heavy Bolter snap firing at minimum if the tank moves at BS:3.
Infantry Platoon with a bare bones PCS and three Infantry Squads with let's say Lascannons in each, plus Krak Grenades across the board once again = 275 points.
That's 3 Lascannon shots, plus 3 Krak Grenade tosses, and a whole lot of Lasgun fire from the blob, plus one additional Krak grenade toss from the PCS, all at BS:3.
They both serve a purpose, but the Veterans and Chimera are easier to 'hide' and have a much smaller footprint on the table in addition to being harder to kill with their Chimera shaped hard candy shell and able to inflict more damage when they fire, all-be-it at a much shorter distance, all while being more than 100 points cheaper. You can Put an entire second Veteran Squad with Carapace Armor or Camo Cloaks & Snare Mines upgrades, Some Special Weapons and a Heavy Weapon upgrade on the table for less than 105 points (No transport obviously). A vet Squad with a trio of Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks, and a Lascannon is just 96 points and in a 4+ cover save ruin will be fairly hard to shift without Ignores Cover, especially if they go to ground. So the reality is, at least points wise, 35 Guardsmen versus 20 Veteran Guardsmen with an attached tank, looking at it purely by what you can get for the points spent.
the_scotsman wrote: (Rapier batteries and Earthshakers, which I can make ignore cover)
I much prefer the Earthshaker with Fire on my Target to the Eradicator.
For the Earthshakers, I attach an Ordo Xenos inquisitor with Conversion Beamer. This grants LD10 for orders, and I can fire the Beamer at a target then switch to Barrage for the Earthshaker for a S9 AP3 Ifnore Cover pie plate that almost never misses.
Ok...here are a few mistakes that you've made.
1. Only the models from Codex AM count for LD for orders. Means that a squad with a ld10 inquisitor still tests on ld7-8 in case of orders.
2. Only units from Codex AM can recieve orders. Means that earthshakers can't recieve orders.
Well, you can homerule the stuff so that it's all fine but you must first ask your opponent before doing so.
Those are some really tighta** folks you play with Koooaei. Nobody I've met and no reasonable tournament pack would enforce that interpretation. If they do, you can pay the 170 point tax and take the artillery formation and get similar benefits. The manticore is pretty good at stripping hullpoints, so it's not a total waste.
I've had luck running blobs in 2 ways:
1) Psychic support from a conclave + 50 dudes and power axes. Expensive, but it holds territory like nobody's business. 4+ invuln, FNP, and invisibility are super solid when you have 45 dudes who literally do not matter at all to get through. In objectives missions where you can play the "come at me bro" game, it's really solid. If you have to chase people down, it can struggle, but 6"+fleet run can get you where you need to be eventually.
2) Spacewolf bunker. A couple of ironpriests and Wolfguard battle leaders with 2+ saves (add in a sanguinary priest for extra lols) and thunder hammers makes for a really nasty look out sir shield for the blob. It's even better if you can find some way of rerolling those saves (I've not found one yet) but with so many choices and freedom to allocate wounds, it's a miserable thing to try and wade through. You also get a cavalry move with obsec granted by the blob. As long as you keep coherency, your reach is pretty good.
For support, it's up in the air. The thing guard struggle with is fast independent mobility. I really want russes to fill this gap, but with their weakness to assault, it's just not possible. Solutions include things like the gorgon transport, the stormlord, and the CRASSUS ARMORED ASSAULT TRANSPORT, sentinels, or allying in bikes. Damn shame because "white scars bikes" is the answer to just about everything. You can also pull Isodon shenanigans and infiltrate the uberblob up the table. If you can swing it, kreig death riders can get obsec and are awesome for their cost. You can also stick platoon command squads in inquisitorial razorbacks, sisters repressors, or fliers, but they have a hard time holding ground. I suppose they could hold till the blob gets there though. Or you can Draigo for gateway/psykanna division in daemons for lols.
The best way to run a competitive AM army is spamming Chimera Veterans. The Chimera might have taken a nerf since last edition, but zooming them up the field will actually do okay against Space Marines, Tau, and Necrons. Eldar will laugh at your face though. THEN trying to build against Eldar will make you lose to those three armies. It is a pretty vicious circle. Wyverns are your best bet against Eldar Scatterbikes I'd have to guess.
I've played a game with Orka militarum not long ago.
Spoiler:
Yarrikk
3 priests
40 man blob [3 axes, 3 melta bombz, 2 voxes]
40+ conscripts
melta vets in a chimera
Wivern
2 solo scout sentinels with multilasers
Min Rough riders with melta bomb on a sarge
A formation of 2 basylisks, manticore, techpriest and comsquad [bosspole to pass orders on all other than 6-6, master of ordnance] in chimera
Xeno inquisitor [book for scout and other buffs, psychostroke grenades, rad grenades, mastery level 1 + force sword, 3 sculls]
Void Shield Generator with 2 extra shields
They did pretty good against clan raukaan marines with an imperial knight. Actually, it was even all game long but i managed to pull a win cause of first blood. And we played itc mission 2 - some sort of simplified maelstorm but with 2 out 6 are "kill something". I don't like ITC missions - regular maelstorm is much more interesting imo. And it favors variety unlike more eternal war-ish ITC ones. Hate killpoints like all orks do. But let's reserve it for another thread.
Things that performed great:
- Artillery formation. That was expected and they did great. The best piece of this formation was...master of ordnance. He hit everything i needed each turn. Extraordinary luck. Pulled way above his weight like...15-20 times. The bad thing is that Yarrikk can't become a warlord with a comsquad.
- Conscripts with a priest and an inquisitor to scout forward. This guyz were amazing. They tanked the biker comsquad with a techmarine and eventually finished them off with some help from rough riders. And they blocked off the knight for a turn - which was vital.
- Rough riders. It's actually not a surprise for me. Rough riders are usually performing fine. This time they charged in and killed 2 comsquad bikers. Don't forget, those are the dudes with 4+++ fnp. One of the casualties was an apothecary, so rough riders instantly payed off.
Things that did fine:
- VSG absorbed some fire early on.
- Scout sentinels outflanked and scored a few points but i wasn't lucky with reserves.
Things that underperformed:
- Yarikk and a kitted melee blob. Now, it usually does good with psy support and Yarikk is an awesome HQ. But this game they happened to be locked in their deployment zone and eventually stomped by a knight. I actually wished i'd bring more mobility. Well, they tarpitted a knight for a few turns, so, not all so grim.
- Chimera vets. All they managed to do this game was a glance on a landspeeder with melta, finishing it off with a heavy bolter. I wish they had meltabomb upgrade for this game. They're still a passable troop choice.
I can't believe more people aren't talking about wyverns! I'd argue they're the best unit in the codex by a long way.
They make a mess of so many targets - points efficient against any infantry from gretchin to centurions and can even glance to death light vehicles (particularly if they park close to each other!)
Barrage sniping is awesome to kill heavy weapons (or avoid a buffing character e.g. in a centstar). Ignores cover is getting more and more important all the time. They're just dead good!
My favourite AM allies (my core army is blobs, conscripts and wyverns):
1) Inquisition - to overwhelm the enemy with more cheap bodies with 5pt bolter henchmen and provide psychic support via cheap psykers. Also the inquisitors themselves can provide LD 10 for orders and servo skulls. Coteaz is just awesome value for points too.
2) Ravenwing - Guard lack grav and fast moving units. Ravenwing do both with ease. The ravenwing 2nd turn arrival formation is great. Multi-meltas and grav just where you need them plus almost untouchable cover saves.
3) Skyhammer - again grav fire just where you need it and just when you need it. A cheap skyhammer formation is a great addition to a blob core.
My 2¢ that doesn't seem to have been mentioned yet on this thread is cover save trickery with tanks. I use a couple of strategies to make my tanks very hard to shoot down, and it's worked for me more often than not. Pretty straightforward: Bullgryns and Camo netting. Expensive, perhaps, but typically makes opponents sink a lot of extra firepower just to try scratching AV14 or 13, and supplements anti-assault bubble wrap that tanks love. I'll take 3+ cover on tanks in open terrain any day, even 2+ if terrain rules with your opponent are favorable. There are some tricks to make sure you target units don't get the reciprocated cover bonus: Ignores cover or Barrage weapons, just let them have armor saves like with Pasknisher, or just move the bullgryns out of the way of your turret weapons for a moment, then run them back in front of your tanks after they fire (orders help here). Like any strategy, YMMV, but for me, this typically allows me to draw fire away from my supporty/ObSec units as a dangerous unit proceeds to the center of the board and blasts anything within 24", drawing heavy fire, yet minimizing damage.
I would agree with the usefulness of the Wyvern. It's a very odd, more subtle beast than your average Leman Russ Demolisher in the way of forcing enemies to roll a ton of saves, rather than bypassing a decent number. Then again, this makes me think that the Wyvern's distinct shortcomings fall when you have multi-save models, be it FNP or Necron Decurion RP. Otherwise, yes, you can target those terminators! Almost anything you target save Boyz and Gaunts get to roll saving dice (though they die in droves to wyverns), but so many dice that there should definitely be some failed saves. However, that's why I wouldn't necessarily field them against Necrons unless I can find something to hit without RP (not likely).
Did I mention Demolishers? Ah, yes. IMO, the Demos make great partners for Pasknisher in a tank commander squadron, even over an executioner. The primary reasons for such are 1) I simply prefer big pie plates since you'll more than likely hit the original target, especially if twin-linked by a Primaris, 2) Instant Death on T4 and 5 models, 3) Hits vehicles harder with S10 and Ordnance, and 4) Actually costs 15 points less than an exec with plasma sponsons. Because Executioners get plasma sponsons. And you do not give Demolishers sponsons.
I also agree that mech vets and Vendettas remain crucial for competitive lists. Mobile ObSec and strong anti-armor/anti-air are almost as good as they were last codex. Definitely some small chimera nerfs and an admittedly much needed price hike to the fliers, but I never leave home without one Vendetta and some mobile vet squads.
Sadly I must disagree concerning Mechvets. They are in fact quite overpriced at the moment especially compared to SM troops with Pods (with or without GSF). Drop Pod is cheaper and better at the scoring game and 5 SM are cheaper and overall better as well. So it is always easier to use allies for that job.
Personally I actually have issues filling the second troops choice effectively. I don't need more than one platoon and I don't want to invest so many points in vets so it is a lose/lose situation. If I turn it around and use AM as allies, Pask does not get his warlord trait and becomes far less useful.
Maybe the Cadia Formations are quite viable as well.
-Nazdreg- wrote: Sadly I must disagree concerning Mechvets. They are in fact quite overpriced at the moment especially compared to SM troops with Pods (with or without GSF). Drop Pod is cheaper and better at the scoring game and 5 SM are cheaper and overall better as well. So it is always easier to use allies for that job.
Personally I actually have issues filling the second troops choice effectively. I don't need more than one platoon and I don't want to invest so many points in vets so it is a lose/lose situation. If I turn it around and use AM as allies, Pask does not get his warlord trait and becomes far less useful.
Maybe the Cadia Formations are quite viable as well.
Wait, what? You think ten BS:4 guardsmen (no upgrades, of course) with a Chimera transport for 125 points is overcosted? A Space Marine tactical squad (5 models, no upgrades) with a Drop Pod costs 95 points. That gives you at most five (or ten within 12") bolter shots and two additional storm bolter shots, so seven to twelve shots. Conversely, the Guard Veterans in their Chimera give you at least a Multilaser turret shot, with either a Heavy Bolter or heavy flamer from the hull weapon mount, and if the squad piles out of the transport, nine (or nineteen within 12") lasgun/laspistol shots. In my opinion, the Guard squad isn't super overcosted for what you get. At least not comparatively. If anything, it's the Chimera transport that needs to be ten to fifteen points cheaper, and the basic Taurox should run about 35 to 40 points base cost for the vehicle.
Any non-fast vehicle with no armor value higher than 12 (Or, conversely, having two or more armor values of 10) shouldn't cost more than 50 points base. Period. At least that's my opinion.
I can't believe someone just said Mechvets were overpriced. Sure the Chimera can go down 10 points, but it's a super excellent transport. There's a mention of Drop Pods, and you don't see Rhinos outside Gladius for a reason.
The chimera hatch nerf hurts for sure, but still, 2 special weapons is better than 1, or none. I mean, if you're hellbent on getting that third melta shot off, my all means, disembark, or wait to get Wrecked. In all honestly I would think with the nerf, the chimera would go down 5 or 10 points.
Taurox would be worth the 50 points if it was Fast like the Prime.
HoundsofDemos wrote: The vets with out upgrades are useless though. Who cares about about s3 ap- these days, that is killing what exactly.
I agree in the fact that vets need upgrades to really get good use out of them, and that lasguns really won't be wounding much. Shotguns aren't bad if you're going to assault, and the squad has melta or the demo charge doctrine. Since vets are typically mechanized, take the 2 or 3 special weapons, but heavy weapons and vox won't do you good, since they'll probably find themselves out of orders range fast. I take grenadiers for 4+ armor and camo netting on my DT. +1 vehicle cover and +1 infantry armor saves doesn't seem like much for 30 points, but in most cases it takes my enemy a disproportionately higher quantity of shooting (or even assaulting in some cases! I've had the fortune of tarpitting Canoptek Wraiths because I charged 'em first ) to kill of the unit entirely. Maybe your enemy decides that the unit is effectively neutered when only 2 lasgun guardsmen are left. Their weaponry will be beyond pitiful... but ObSec ftw. Maybe you'll get one more VP out of them for paying for the armor to survive a salvo of AP5.
In my (purely) IG army i have two blobs. I push them forward hard, leaving the Lascannon in the back of the unit unmoving so that they can still fire every turn.
I'm pretty sure if you move a model in a unit, the entire unit counts as moving for shooting purposes. I don't think leaving the lascannon stationary while the rest of the squad moves would give them any benefit.
In my (purely) IG army i have two blobs. I push them forward hard, leaving the Lascannon in the back of the unit unmoving so that they can still fire every turn.
I'm pretty sure if you move a model in a unit, the entire unit counts as moving for shooting purposes. I don't think leaving the lascannon stationary while the rest of the squad moves would give them any benefit.
This misperception has caused more than one person to underestimate IG.
Move, then give them the shoot and move order. makes them fairly fast to their intended positions.
I have been looking at building a list around blobs, but there seems to be so many options. Azrael looks temping due to two things, the obvious 4++, but also he can select warlord traits. Furious charge and the +3" on run and charge look very appealing. Is he to expensive?
Some of the GKHQ's also look appealing, one or two of them come with hammerhand and sanctuary default. With war hymms and str 5, their dmg potential looks really good. Combining GK with Azreal would net a 3++, or is this just going overboard with buffs? Having hammerhand would sure be nice for multi assaulting transports vs gladius battle companies.
Inqusition looks like a cheap alternative, the 15 point relic that can scout the whole blob and rad grenades reducing toughness by 1 to enemies locked in combat.
Then there is the Libby conclave with Tiggy. Putting them in the blob should make them relativly safe, but it's still random what spells you get. It seems important to get hammerhand, invis or the 4++ atleast, but there are many other good spells, but for tournaments not getting a key spell is a huge hit.
Then there is Severin, with fixed invis he can either buff the blob vs lists with dakka, or keep your elite units buffed vs grav spam.
Azreal has the advantage of being immune to culexus, but it seems psykers have a higher potential? Or is it simply better to keep the blob cheap adding some IG priests and perhaps a inquisitor?
Seems like a blob would be very efficient for dealing with close combat deathstars and grav spam lists. I'm just not sure it can hold up to Eldar with their high amount of volume shots.
This is all just theoretical ideas though, it would be nice to hear from someone playing blobs competivly as there is no substitute for experience.
Well the blobs are ABSOLUTELY in my lists regardless of the rest of the details.
I personally go 40 Men (4 LasCannons, 4 Axes, 4 Meltabombs if you want meltabombs and you probably do) + 3 Priests + 3 Psykers.
Its a beast at that point.
Azrael is quite good. Since we're sort of focusing on IG competitiveness Id shy away from going outide the Militarum/Tempestus realm but thats just me. Its not because they arent good options. Just because we're focusing in on IG
I recommend coteaz as the leader for a blob - decent psyker support, daemon hammer and termi armour are all good, plus his re-roll to seize is awesome.
Jancoran wrote: Well the blobs are ABSOLUTELY in my lists regardless of the rest of the details.
I personally go 40 Men (4 LasCannons, 4 Axes, 4 Meltabombs if you want meltabombs and you probably do) + 3 Priests + 3 Psykers.
Its a beast at that point.
Azrael is quite good. Since we're sort of focusing on IG competitiveness Id shy away from going outide the Militarum/Tempestus realm but thats just me. Its not because they arent good options. Just because we're focusing in on IG
Your blob squad as built above costs 200 for the troops (not factoring in the points for the PCS for the platoon), plus 80 points for the lascannons, plus 60 points for the power weapons, plus 75 for the priests, plus another 150 (Minimum) for the three psykers if they're all level 1, or 225 if they're all level 2.
That's *565* points JUST for the blob with level one Primaris Pskers. If you tack on Melta Bombs and bump the psykers up to level 2 it's a whopping *660* points... With a bare bones PCS tacked on thats *690* points....
How can you justify sinking almost 700 points into *ONE* troops choice?..
Yea, they're fearless, with Zealot and all, but damn son. It's huge and amazingly easy to hit. You can't get invisibility on it, since only Astropath CCS advisers have access to that Psychic Tree and only get one roll, and at best you'll give them a 4+ invulnerable save with other powers on the Primaris Psyker. They will tarpit a unit for a while but if something like Wraith Guard or other tough opponents get them tied up that's ~700 points of your army not doing a thing for quite a while.
I can't ses this being viable, ever. I'm not saying it can't work, and I get the feeling your meta is fairly soft core if this thing works. I know for an absolute fact that two to three of my good friends who make the local (and national) tournament circuit would utterly annihilate any list with this much of your points tied up into one troops choice.
Go with what works there, but don't take this anywhere competitive and expect to do much with it.
koooaei wrote: I thought you can only run 2 psychers in cad.
I don't have my codex handy so I can't confirm the number you can put on the field, but I do know that Primaris Psykers are HQ choices that do not take up a slot in the standard CAD force organization slot, and that they also do not count for the mandatory HQ choice required for a CAD to be considered battleforged & receive the warlord trait reroll + Ob-Sec for the troops & their transports. They can also be taken in multiples but I don't remember if it's in multiples of two or three per CAD Formation.
That said, if my memory serves, I believe you can run up to three Primaris Psykers, as well as three Ministorum Priests (which work as detailed above, taking an HQ slot without counting toward the mandatory HQ required for a CAD) in a single CAD Formation.
Blob squads are modestly good at assault, the problem is most every army out there is going to drop every ounce of their firepower not going at tanks at that blob till it's so weakened that it won't be effective once an assault element gets to it and picks the remnants up in one to two assault phases.
Honestly Coetez is an infinitely better choice to attach to a blob squad than one or more Primaris Psykers for Hammerhand alone, let alone having all his wargear and the seize the initiative re-roll.
I maintain that Blobs are too expensive for what you get, and that they will struggle to do anything meaningful in a game beyond be bullet catchers for the lion's share of your opponents anti-infantry firepower. Just my opinion on that.
I recently picked up 70-80 guardsmen, really wan't to give the blob a shot in a competitive setting.
I'm leaning towards Severin Loth + blob with a few extra psykers, i was initially worried about culexus, but most lists that take one usually don't have very strong answers to cheap infantry. Daemons and GK can stop invis, but they are not that great vs mass infantry as well.
I guess seer council + scat bikes might be a challenge, but i have yet to face any Eldar running this.
So we are looking at roughly 500 points for Severin Loth, 55 guardmen and 2 priests. They can still be tarpitted by walkers so we need 5 meltabombs. For close combat we either need hammerhand or an inquisitor with rad grenades, we can't have both due to the 3 detachment limit, i'd really like hammerhand but a GK libby that has the spell automatically is 150-185 points, which is pricy. Being able to multi assault a gladius can give us a huge turn 2.
Another option is going for Severin plus a conclave, Tiggy goes santic for a high chanse at hammerhand while we grab daemon summoning and other useful spells in divination on the others. If we go with Conclave we are looking at 800 points, which is kinda crazy, but we can atleast spawn some screamers for mobile objective grabbers?
Seems like an large invis blob combined with armored support can be a good way to make a counter meta list. If we add some wyverns and perhaps some forgeworld tanks (scorpius or sicaran) we also have good fire support.
It sounds strong and a right pain to remove for certain opponents. I tend to take the opposite strategy though - trying to have multiple blobs for more bodies and redundancy. The main reason for this is knights - both wraith and imperial. A big fancy blob can be held up for most of a game by one of these critters, as they can simply stomp out the melta bombs (invisible or not).
I prefer something like this:
PCS with autocannon 40pts
3 infantry squads with 3 lascannons, 3 bolters and 2 melta bombs (attached priest) 248pts
40 conscripts with attached priest and coteaz 245pts
The conscripts unit will kill almost anything of their equivalent points cost (or if not then tie it up for most of the game). The priest's hymns can give Coteaz a potential 2+ re-rollable armour save too, and Coteaz can have a shot at invisibility or the rending power from divination (which works wonders with lasguns!)
Excellent point, especially againsts imperial knights. Vs the wraithknight hammerhand and force weapons should scare a lot of wraithknights away, but against IKnights it can quickly get problematic. A few sixes on the stomp table vs characers can quickly deflate half the army.
How can you justify sinking almost 700 points into *ONE* troops choice?..
-Red__Thirst-
Well... If I gave your codex a Level 2 Psyker that could roll for six powers for 225 points, gave it 9 Force Weapon attacks plus Rage activated all the time until it takes four wounds, would you consider it? What if it had the special ability to split itself into three parts and go take objectives at the end if it wanted to? Would that add to its appeal? How about it i make it so they don't take up a Force org slot too?
It starts to sound NOT so crazy anymore. And that's kind of what you get with IG Psykers. You have to look at what they do in the end.
What if I could get a 4+ invul save for my squad? What if i could re-roll all my saves in close combat, become better than Fearless and then maybe against a squishier target forego the re-rolling of saves to simply Smite the enemy targets? Say, Terminators who want to get sparky with me?
I don't know. Would that be worth something to you?
The blob on its own is nothing special. WHILE the blob is combat effective, these expenditures make it special. And then when (I should say if) the blob ever gets below that point then i will leave them to die and go find other tasks to accomplish if free to do so.
The blob does pump out a lot of pain though. Four Lascannons does hurt, especially when twin linked which the blob can get from its attendant members. Consider that. Tank hunting, twin linked Lascannons? Yes please?
You know just try it a time or two. Pretty darn fun.
While the blob certainly has advantages and a couple drawbacks, I really hope there are strategies and tactics for using the rest of the army. Even with approximately 60 infantry, it's tough for me to build a big power blob because I built so many special weapons troops for vet squads. I'm hoping that with all these transports, tanks, and artillery, we can have other elements of our army that have strategic value to them.
Sorry for the , but I feel that the powerblob has been very thoroughly covered in this thread while other units have been somewhat underrepresented.
The Vulture is really solid (Forgeworld) It's 150-160ish points with the twin linked gatling cannon. You aslo get strafing run (bs4 vs ground units) and vector dancer so you can stay on the board most of the game.
Throw in an officer of the fleet in your ccs for the reserve buff.
With vector dancer it should be possible to get a decent amount of rear shots on tanks/dreadnoughts as well.
Well... If I gave your codex a Level 2 Psyker that could roll for six powers for 225 points, gave it 9 Force Weapon attacks plus Rage activated all the time until it takes four wounds, would you consider it? What if it had the special ability to split itself into three parts and go take objectives at the end if it wanted to? Would that add to its appeal? How about it i make it so they don't take up a Force org slot too?
One, go re-read the Combined Squads rule in the Astra Militarum Codex. It's on page 37. Note the last sentence that states your squad must remain in whatever configuration it was in when you declared it prior to rolling warlord traits. If you are splitting a (declared and deployed) 40 man blob squad into smaller sub squads during a game, you are (apparently inadvertently) cheating. You either deploy them as one 10 man squd and one 30 man squad, two 20 man squads, four 10 man squads, or one 40 man squad. That one 40 man blob squad holds one objective at any one time ever. Also, if you take it as part of a CAD them it takes up a force org slot. I can't speak toward a formation but Taking a force org slot isn't really pertinent to it's effectiveness now is it?
Two, you can have 9 or 90 force weapon attacks, you have to make it to melee to use them and any competent opponent will wait to charge until that squad has bee reduced in strength so much that it will be wiped out in one to two phases of combat. Putting that many points into a single part of your army (Again, just shy of 700 points) that will be a boat anchor to the rest of your force is just not smart man. I have nothing against blob squads but keep them under 300 points or so. That way you can field a couple of them. Hell I can get a 30 man blob, a 40 man conscript squad, with two priests, a Primaris Psyker, and =][= Coeteaz for under 700 points EASY.
Math: PCS = 30, 3x Infantry Squad = 195 (Krak Grenades & Melta bombs), 40x Conscripts = 120, 2x Priests = 50, Primaris Psyker = 50, Coeteaz = 100. Total: 495 points. I have 30 more bodies on the board and am just shy of 200 points cheaper.
Jancoran wrote: It starts to sound NOT so crazy anymore. And that's kind of what you get with IG Psykers. You have to look at what they do in the end.
No, the way you run it is terribly inefficient and frankly crazy. Also I know what IG psykers can do. I run one regularly in my lists, sometimes more than one points allowing. They're useful but by no means are they show stopping. A space Marine Librarian is just a little more expensive and, in my opinion, a vastly superior choice for the psychic phase.
Jancoran wrote: What if I could get a 4+ invul save for my squad? What if i could re-roll all my saves in close combat, become better than Fearless and then maybe against a squishier target forego the re-rolling of saves to simply Smite the enemy targets? Say, Terminators who want to get sparky with me?
I don't know. Would that be worth something to you?
A 4+ invulnerable save is nice and all but you're still going to lose models in droves because they're going to get shot to pieces and any weapon you point at them is going to, generally speaking, wound you on a 3+ or 2+, That translates to a plethora of wounds every turn and a loss of 8, 10, or even more models every shooting phase. You keep coming back to close combat, but NO opponent is going to sit there and let you charge them with that mass of infantry unless they are extremely inept. Bear in mind that this blob squad revolves around of a LOT of variables. Do you successfully get the right psychic power? Can you successfully cast it every turn without getting denied or flubbing the roll? Can you reliably get the leadership check on the priest to pass (On LD:7) to get his hymn rule for that phase? Lots of things can go wrong and result in easily losing half or more of the squad to one decent enemy shooting or assault phase.
Jancoran wrote: The blob on its own is nothing special. WHILE the blob is combat effective, these expenditures make it special. And then when (I should say if) the blob ever gets below that point then i will leave them to die and go find other tasks to accomplish if free to do so.
The blob does pump out a lot of pain though. Four Lascannons does hurt, especially when twin linked which the blob can get from its attendant members. Consider that. Tank hunting, twin linked Lascannons? Yes please?
You know just try it a time or two. Pretty darn fun.
Versus my regular opponents, your squad would be left to die by turn three more often than not and would have accomplished little, if anything.
Tank hunting twinlinked lascannons can do some damage, to one vehicle, maybe two. Then by turn three the squad is decimated/removed/effectively destroyed and you've at best killed a couple of hundred and fifty point tanks, or damaged destroyed some transports. Not worth it, because if you're shooting at tanks you're not using the plethora of lasguns to pour at enemy infantry in range as you advance. I'll take my twinlinked lascannons on my Vendetta. It's cheaper to field, harder to kill, and INFINITELY more mobile.
I've run blob squads, with priests and psykers and =][= attached and every single game they die without accomplishing a blessed thing other than being spectacular bullet catchers.
One, go re-read the Combined Squads rule in the Astra Militarum Codex. It's on page 37. Note the last sentence that states your squad must remain in whatever configuration it was in when you declared it prior to rolling warlord traits.
Two, you can have 9 or 90 force weapon attacks, you have to make it to melee to use them and any competent opponent...
No, the way you run it is terribly inefficient and frankly crazy.
A 4+ invulnerable save is nice and all but.,..
Versus my regular opponents, your squad would be left to die...
-Red__Thirst-
Clipped for brevity.
One, you are misunderstanding my post. I wasn't suggesting you can take the squad apart afterwards. I was talking about the six characters that can leave it. Also, it doesnt have to blob at the start of the game as you point out. So if the mission calls for it, you have that option. if not, you kind of still do in a way. Going last for the win.
If you feel getting across the board is a problem consider two things: First that I wont need to against quite a few opponents. they WILL come to me either because they are melee oriented or because they are a Drop pod army or they are a speed army etc... Or they're coming BASICALLY any time they are not a gunline because I fire too many high powered shots to allow that to continue unabated. I in turn am also coming to them. So I understand that there may well be a gunline in my future. I do it better. So if you're content to let me keep shooting, I'm content TO keep shooting. Yup. I am.
Calling it crazy is fine as long as you'r a good sport when the games over.
A 4+ save IS nice and all and there is no BUT attached to that. It just is nice, period. Not only that but it also means that I will in all likelihood have tjhe ablative wounds needed to reach the goals for that unit.
If your opponents are able to nix me and my "crazy" that's cool. I'll see 'm at the next TSHFT or whatever.
Jancoran wrote:What if it had the special ability to split itself into three parts and go take objectives at the end if it wanted to?
You must admit that you worded this very poorly and that it seems like you're breaking the squad up late game and not detaching the few IC's attached. Just letting you know.
Jancoran wrote:Clipped for brevity.
This seems like way more work than it needs to be instead of just addressing my entire post, but whatev's.
Jancoran wrote:One, you are misunderstanding my post. I wasn't suggesting you can take the squad apart afterwards. I was talking about the six characters that can leave it. Also, it doesnt have to blob at the start of the game as you point out. So if the mission calls for it, you have that option. if not, you kind of still do in a way. Going last for the win.
See, you didn't exactly make that point very clear based on the way you explained it earlier. No harm, no foul, just try to explain it better in the future so you avoid confusing those whom you're speaking with. That said yes one inherent benefit of infantry squads is the combined squads rule and how you can mix and match their deployment depending on your opponent. That said, if you deploy them individually it does weaken them quite a bit because it isn't difficult to remove one 10 man infantry squad from the table, especially if it doesn't have the benefit of cover. Even blobbed up though, they're too easy to avoid and remove with massed shooting. I can hear my Tau buddy salivating over what kind of damage he could do to this squad from here.
Jancoran wrote:If you feel getting across the board is a problem consider two things: First that I wont need to against quite a few opponents. they WILL come to me either because they are melee oriented or because they are a Drop pod army or they are a speed army etc... Or they're coming BASICALLY any time they are not a gunline because I fire too many high powered shots to allow that to continue unabated. I in turn am also coming to them. So I understand that there may well be a gunline in my future. I do it better. So if you're content to let me keep shooting, I'm content TO keep shooting. Yup. I am.
Calling it crazy is fine as long as you'r a good sport when the games over.
I'm sorry but Guard are a terribly inefficient gunline army, which is sad because that's kind of our thing. Again, play a competent Tau player, or Eldar player, or Necrons, God forbid, and you will learn that the person who dictates the fight is not you because of the extremely limited mobility of the Guard (Outside of our flyers, which are admittedly pretty good all told). You are going to lose the attrition battle every single time. No ifs ands or buts,
Using your blob squad, In an 1850 list, almost 700 points of it is tied up in one Infantry platoon & attached characters and in that blob you have four lascannons. I don't know what the rest of your army looks like but four lascannons is not what I would consider a lot, and considering I could get nine twinlinked lascannons in the form of three vendettas (Either as one FA choice in a squadron or three individual FA choices for 510 points, 180 points less than your blob squad), four conditionally twinlinked, possibly tank hunting lascannons isn't as stellar compared to nine always twnlinked Lascannon shots on hard to remove, highly mobile flyer platforms.
Example: I would rather run 3 Vendettas and have enough points to buy a PCS with some cheap special weapons (3x Flamers) to ride in one, with a pair of bare bones infantry squads on the ground (No upgrades, just combined together) and still have enough points to put a special weapon squad with 3x flamers in a second vendetta. I'm only showing you what you can do with equivalent points that you're spending on your blob. Let your CCS ride in the third vendetta I've just described, then put a veteran squad on the table as your second troops choice to make it battleforged, and if you're feeling really froggy, squadron up the PCS and SWS Vendettas, field the CCS vendetta as it's own FA choice, and put a Valkyrie on the table for your veterans to ride in. That gives you over 45 wounds, four flying gun platforms with nine lascannon shots plus the valkyrie's guns. See the difference? I know which option I would have a harder time dealing with personally.
Lastly, yea being a good sport should always be the end result.
Jancoran wrote:A 4+ save IS nice and all and there is no BUT attached to that. It just is nice, period. Not only that but it also means that I will in all likelihood have tjhe ablative wounds needed to reach the goals for that unit.
If your opponents are able to nix me and my "crazy" that's cool. I'll see 'm at the next TSHFT or whatever.
I'm just letting you know that in other more competitive metas, a 'most of your eggs in one basket' kind of set up like your blob here is going to hurt you far more often than it helps you. Be prepared to try new things and don't get pigeon holed into the same build over ad over again. Look for more efficient ways to use your points within your army and make sure you're getting the most out of every points investment you make in a list.
I'm just letting you know that in other more competitive metas, a 'most of your eggs in one basket' kind of set up like your blob here is going to hurt you far more often than it helps you.
-Red__Thirst-
And Im just letting you know there isnt a more competitive one than we have. 8 of the top 40 ITC Generals are here and a lot of unmentioned ones. Believe me. Nothing here is new. And im not looking for ways to lose. If im doing it, you can take it as a fair bet that I'm doing it against a lot of juggernauts.
And Im just letting you know there isnt a more competitive one than we have. 8 of the top 40 ITC Generals are here and a lot of unmentioned ones. Believe me. Nothing here is new. And im not looking for ways to lose. If im doing it, you can take it as a fair bet that I'm doing it against a lot of juggernauts.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: That's a lie and you know it. I can still point to that battle report you did when you said you faced Mechdar and it wasn't even close to true.
You face bad opponents AND bad lists.
I don't think they, nor I, give a damn whether you think so. True story.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: That's a lie and you know it. I can still point to that battle report you did when you said you faced Mechdar and it wasn't even close to true.
You face bad opponents AND bad lists.
I won't call him a liar, though I do think he plays in a more casual/fun meta compared to some.
Guard have their strengths, and to a point blob squads are one of them, but the blob squad only works against new players or people inexperienced with how to deal with them or inept enough to not understand their weaknesses. Also, mono guard Blobs are not nearly as stupid as what you can do with allies. Invisible blobs or large blob conscript squads (Attached librarians/Tigerius/Severin Loth to provide such) with a Priest attached are Got Dang annoying to deal with by comparison.
That said, people are welcome to whatever deluded opinions they wish to have. One day the truth will smack 'em like a halibut to the face and I only hope someone else can record it for posterity.
And Im just letting you know there isnt a more competitive one than we have. 8 of the top 40 ITC Generals are here and a lot of unmentioned ones. Believe me. Nothing here is new. And im not looking for ways to lose. If im doing it, you can take it as a fair bet that I'm doing it against a lot of juggernauts.
Ok...
For funsies, since you've made a claim here, let me ask.
Post up these 8 generals names and their exact rank in the top 40 please. (A link to the ITC top 100 or whatever is fine, but do let me know who they are in the top 40 ranking so I can gauge it here).
Secondly, how often do you play said generals and what are their lists? Post up an example of the top two or three lists of the 8 you cited that you tackle/play regularly with your guard please
Lastly, link your 'standard' list you take against them, and if possible, have one of them come chime in here and add to the discussion regarding your super blob and if it's as tough and successful as you claim. If you play them on the regular I'm sure they wouldn't mind chiming in here & discussing tactics.
I get the feeling none of the above will happen, but whatev's. A man can dream.
And Im just letting you know there isnt a more competitive one than we have. 8 of the top 40 ITC Generals are here and a lot of unmentioned ones. Believe me. Nothing here is new. And im not looking for ways to lose. If im doing it, you can take it as a fair bet that I'm doing it against a lot of juggernauts.
Ok den.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Usually, I would stay out of this, but I think you guys are being a little hard on him. He told us about the blob he plays, it's his preference. It may not be your definition of competitive but that doesn't mean that it cant do well or be competitive. Plus if hes actually spent time playing it, he clearly has a strategy that works for him. There nothing wrong with discussing it, but Red Thirst, you've been trying to tear it apart pretty aggressively from the start which is why I find your above response so humorous.
If you'd like to see an example of the blob he is talking about in action, there is a decent representation in this recent long war bat rep. Though they use a conclave over the primaris psykers, which is clearly a strong choice, but the basic principle of the unit idea is the same. They do very well overall, whatever you may think of the player decisions. It definitely lends credence to the idea that the unit can be very successful. Though I don't think the criticisms you've made are unfounded, it's still a valid choice if that's how he wants to run it. It can even do well and win.
As with a lot of things, the superblob is a tool that can be used and since it's so many points, you really need to think about how the rest of your list is built to get the most from it. It's strong because of the layered psychic defense and significant combat output. Its weakness is that it's a single slow massive deathstar.
Compare it to a wolfstar or gravbike command squad star. The difference is these units are going to be MUCH faster, but will not have obsec. The superblob is brilliant for denying entire table quarters, but will struggle catching or defending fast MSU opponents.
Consider the meta: wraith knight, triptide, 6*3 scatter bikes is representative IMO. The blob will own the wriath knight and will eat riptides if it can catch them. What's left? The obsec jetbikes. You can replace this with ravenwing bikes or mounted assault bikes or free (grumble grumble) razorback spam. In all of these cases, the blob cannot catch these small, fast, obsec units. How to counter them then?
The rest of the list is in charge of shooting them down and capturing objectives. Again, death riders are brilliant because they can do both. Shy of that, you can spend 700 on the artillery formation and your remaining points on either russes (obsec from IA1) or mechvets/mechtoons.
A fun option would be taking the gorgon transport for the blob and just running it 18" up the field with a massive "shoot me" sign on them. I digress. Other solutions can include podding/elysian vets, allied white scars grav bikers, or allied scout-shame.
If you want to stick to pure codex AM, I think your best bet is either special weapons squads jumping out of vendettas or taurox vet spam. As much as I like the chimeras, 15 points is a lot to spend on a unit that is GOING to die, and AV12 doesn't help against haywire, D, grav, krak bike assaults, jump-shoot-run-tripple jump-backflip-pirouette warp spiders, flanking hornets, or m85" scat bikers, or inflitrating scouts especially when you're walking up the table.
Ether wrote: As with a lot of things, the superblob is a tool .
So true.
My Militarum Tempestus, which most would agree is a distressed Codex given that it really isn't a true codex but more like a Kauyon book now, uses IG allies. The blob squad does wonders for covering my glaring weakness in that list. well there's two really: Anti-air and anti-deathstars.
The Militarum Tempestus have some REALLY nice features that are probably under rated by my opponents until they see them on the table. the Orders for Militarum Tempestus are magical. The trouble is, the army does need more time than it has to kill the super tough stuff like Paladinstars or whatever example you might think of along that vein. STR 3 guns will do the job eventually at AP 3 (STR 4 with the bigger Volley Guns) and they can be made into AP 3 sniper weapons as needed against stuff that's really tough, but time is an issue especially against 2+ armor. Their orders really help BUT if there is a big wad of unpleasantness, we just may simply not have the time we need to whittle it before it can end us.
So enter the blob. It essentially wipes out any hope you have of killing it. It has died...once. Literally. The blob is nigh indestructible. That being said it can't be everywhere. The Militarum Tempestus really can.
So the synergy is really good. The Militarum Tempestus get to their spots. The blob whittles whats there with shooting and then the Tempestus finish it. The enemy is forced to realize that they are losing objective space too quickly and they need to be able to stay mobile as the blob inexorably comes towards them. So they try to slow it down by feeding it less valuable units. totally legit. But then any objectives BEHIND the blob become a pipe dream for them to reach. So ultimately the enemy HAS to commit to the blob pretty wholesale. This is difficult. It simply never dies (never obviously being Hyperbole as it did indeed die once in one of my games against Dark Eldar, damn Corpsethief claw).
The other problem is that the Blob can kill tanks from afar while moving. It can kill them up close and personal too. So speed doesn't necessarily avail the enemy much. All its doing is giving me free movement. How frustrating to know you could totally unload a pile of hurt on the blob but would not want to? Yet if you don't, you keep losing tanks or high value models? Pretty frustrating. What if your army is an assault army?
The anti-air thing REALLY shows itself in battles with Flying Circus's. in those games, they have a decided advantage. those flying monsters can whallop my Militarum units AND not have to land anywhere i can charge them. 4 lascannons while awesome, aren't as exciting when they fire at a flying Monstrous Creature! Good luck hitting often enough without some help. It can be done but you take a pretty good beating. I learned the hard way fighting Tzeentch flying Daemons how thoroughly they can clear little guys like Tempestus out, leaving ONLY the blob.
Enter in the anti-air. I take three Hydras. These complete my picture. Now I can force the enemies into the blob via fairly strong firepower (lots of AP 3 and Lascannons will motivate you to do something and soon) and if they have FMC's, I am hitting one 9 times in a round. FMC's now are forced to fight the Hydras instead of the Tempestus which buys them the time they really need. The Hydras do about 2 wounds a round against 3+ armored FMC's and 4.5 against 4+ FMC's (Cursed Earth Daemon saves or whatever). Plenty enough for them to want those Hydras dead. I'm coolio with that if it gets me extra time for the rest.
I found out Relic Plating is a worthwhile investment on the Hydras. Maybe not on most vehicles most of the time but for so few points? Meh. why not. if it saves me a lance power going off or the crazy psyker fusillade to my side, just once, its worth it. They are important enough against the right enemies to protect.
So as you say: a tool. A good one. Even a WraithKnight is none too excited about tangling with that many force weapons, Meltabombs and Lascannons. I imagine Imperial Knights feel the same and would rather fire from afar and stay bubble wrapped behind their Vanguard (or whomever they are allied with).
In a normal IG army, the supporting cast changes but the blobs basic function is the same.
Anywho, it isn't as if it's never lost. But the fantastic amount of punishment it can take makes me almost not even care when people target it.
The inquisitor seems like a no brainer, a 6" scout move not slowed by terrain really gives them a good head start. Rad grenades combined with warhymms make them actually quite deadly in combat, and everything is fairly low cost. With the amount of grav out and D in the current meta, many lists will struggle dealing with blobs.
You could do an inquisitor. the three Detachment maximum generally does not stop that from happening. My Militarum Tempestus have two Detachments and could therefore easily add the inquisitors.
Its a pretty tight fit though. I think that there is probably a point of diminishing returns in giving the blob YET MORE power! The Priests need to be a threesome because their LD does suck. The Psykers need to be a threesome because getting the right powers is important.
Strategic Warlord Traits could help also. But yeah a 6" free move is kind of a big deal.
What is the general idea for guard as competitive play or what units work and don't, it seems like it's all over the place with blobs and everyone having their own idea. I assume pask in punisher is our go to hq?
Is there any merit to running infantry platoons in tauroxs and trying to make use of msu's all with objective secured?
tankboy145 wrote: What is the general idea for guard as competitive play or what units work and don't, it seems like it's all over the place with blobs and everyone having their own idea. I assume pask in punisher is our go to hq?
Is there any merit to running infantry platoons in tauroxs and trying to make use of msu's all with objective secured?
Obsec is a thing. Tons of it is twice as much of a thing!
I play Militarum Tempestus with an Astra Militarum allied detachment. Obsec everywhere!
tankboy145 wrote: What is the general idea for guard as competitive play or what units work and don't, it seems like it's all over the place with blobs and everyone having their own idea. I assume pask in punisher is our go to hq?
Is there any merit to running infantry platoons in tauroxs and trying to make use of msu's all with objective secured?
Obsec is a thing. Tons of it is twice as much of a thing!
I play Militarum Tempestus with an Astra Militarum allied detachment. Obsec everywhere!
40 Imperial Guardsman (4x power Axes, 4 LasCannons)
5 man Platoon Command
935pts
.
It's interesting seeing a list without Wyverns and still appearing to be highly competitive. How does this list fare in Eternal War missions? I'm running 10 Scions with meltaguns in a Valkyrie for some extra armour busting power. That being said, I play in quite an armour heavy meta too.
Just fine. Militarum Tempestus ORDERS are amaze balls. Pretty much can take on anything as long as you have enough orders. If i could i would definitely have a third command team in there. Have wrestled with that for a long time. But it play pretty well as it is anyways.
The entire army has Krak except the Guardsmen. so armor is fine. Meltas take down the BIG armor and the Taurox Primes take down the small armor. Everyone to his strengths. In an armor heavy meta, this does well because it can stun or destroy most of it in a fairly small amount of time. The soldiers of the enemy army generally arent waiting around for a secon round of getting jostled around i ntheir transports. So they get out and once out, the AP 3 in the army can express itself. The army scatters well so it is difficult for enemies to focus too much on any one unit. spreading the enemy out is geneally a strategy i seek anyways.
The Militarum Tempestus fight a lot like some Dark Eldar armies. I played a fair amount of Dark Eldar before playing these so I found the transition fairly painless. Like Dark eldar, you WILL take losses, sometimes a frightening number. It's a gritty army, one you dont play if you can't handle "how much better" everyone is than you. Lol. If you preoccupy your mind with such fruitless thoughts, you probably don't enjoy them anyways. You'll be outclassed by most of the galaxy but you make up for it in mobility and most of all UTILITY
The blob is a hammer blow. It makes spreading the enemy army out a LOT easier. Driving it like a wedge into them makes them wanna' spread out and stay away from it most of the time and that allows the disparate units of Tempestus to do their best work.
The Lascannons will hurt and they dont miss often thanks to orders and Psykers. So you are hitting plenty if armor is your enemies jam, and making them wonder if armor was such a great idea. Sooo maaaaany grenades and Lacannons and meltas and STR 7 Twin linked shots!
2+ armor spam is the big thing. That can hurt. So the blob has to be ready to engage those especially and that was a big problem or me before I realized the answer. So just be aware that you really haven't got much that can deal with such things, and the meltas while cool are not copious enough to really threaten a Riptide fast enough. So you kind of have to whallop those with weight of fire and concentrate efforts on easier things while the blob advances ever onward. The blob if it gets the Psychic power to Rend is pretty darn scary against any armor. Sheer number of attacks that can rend is pretty awesome.
Someones suggestion on the Inquisitor is quite nice and would serve my list pretty well so i might look into getting the scout one in there. Seems legit.
Aerial targets are an issue also so the Hydras were important. Too many blistering rounds of fire from Psyker flyers taught me the value of taking it seriously. Belakor and the like need to be stopped and forced at minimum to make some saves early. Skimmers arent rare, so the Hydras can do a number on Eldar, Dark Eldar and Necron transports through their hail of fire and the new White Scar formation with speeders is silly pants awesome, so now you have to worry about that. this list already kind of has that on lockdown.
I am also playing with the idea of getting an Enginseer to help split my fire between more targets. Just wrote an article about them.
MT are not an easy army to play - that's for sure. Very unforgiving and luck-dependent. Basically, if you roll below averge and the enemy doesn't get too hurt - which happens from time to time - nothing's gona keep your t3 4+ ws3 non-fearless dudes there for long. Unless your opponents also rolls insanely afwul. Which also happens but way less often cause he needs lower average result to erase you.
Thus said, an army provides a bunch of interesting possibilities. ap3 even with s3 can still hurt forcing 3+ dudes to hug cover. Everything can deepstrike. Even if you take transports, noone's preventing you from just going parachute the hell out of them. Special weapons and orders. But man, 13 ppm for a t3 4+ non-fearless dude is tough to make work. Guardian warhost has it easier, really.
koooaei wrote: MT are not an easy army to play - that's for sure. Very unforgiving and luck-dependent. Basically, if you roll below averge and the enemy doesn't get too hurt - which happens from time to time - nothing's gona keep your t3 4+ ws3 non-fearless dudes there for long. Unless your opponents also rolls insanely afwul. Which also happens but way less often cause he needs lower average result to erase you.
Thus said, an army provides a bunch of interesting possibilities. ap3 even with s3 can still hurt forcing 3+ dudes to hug cover. Everything can deepstrike. Even if you take transports, noone's preventing you from just going parachute the hell out of them. Special weapons and orders. But man, 13 ppm for a t3 4+ non-fearless dude is tough to make work. Guardian warhost has it easier, really.
As I explained, if you don't have a stomach for losses then you can't play Militarum Tempestus. That's really what it comes down to honestly.
This particular list definitely FEELS up hill at points in the game. Yet it scores points quite easily. So while you are taking grievous losses, the enemy is losing ground in the points game. Only in Kill points do they really feel any real pressure, and in those games you feature your blob much more, going second and all those kinds of things. There isn't anything you can do to make up for that weakness other than be better than the other guy at the game and pick your losses carefully. It's like Dark Eldar in so many ways in the sense of how you kind of have to finesse some games.
An example of a game against a recent Eldar opponent, since its very fresh in my mind:
He brought his 3 man bike squads with an attached Warlock on three of the units (maybe four, I forget?) to make them unhittable. His Wraithguard were flawlessly deep striking in with a Webway Portal later. His Wraithknight held serve up the middle to try and tie up the blob ASAP and his Psyker dice were 10 or 11 to my base 5, so he had at least a shot to shut down a power once in a while if he threw all his dice at it. So he was as set as he was going to be. In that instance, as I deployed second and he wanted to get the jump on me with casting his powers and disallow me mine for a round, he went first. Sound choice. I decided not to deploy anything but the blob and the Hydras (bubble wrapped against his deep strike). As you will see this was on some level a bit of a wasted effort for me.
Round one went as expected. He slaughtered 15 guardsman without trying, and if not for cover and him failing his Guide roll it could have been a little worse but I had at least gotten the benefit of some decent terrain. He cast Conceal on all his bikes that could do it (I stopped nothing) and his WraithKnight came right up the gut. Rough start. On my turn i used the ignores cover power plus the run and shoot order. Hydras and Guard combined to kill off a Bike Squad. First blood. A little anti-climactic but we'll take it.
On second turn he rolled well and I lost 15 more Guardsman, Wraithguard stayed in Reserve, Raider and some Dark eldar came on. Scorpions slunk forward again. The Raider got a lucky shot on a Hydra, exploding it. Guardsman casualties helped me because he missed the charge with the Wraith Knight which I had run away from after shooting. My Militarum Tempestus came in and between the Sniper shots (2 but he made one of his FnP so i caused just one with a Sniper shot), meltas (2 unsaved), and Lascannons( 3 wounds with Monster Hunter!). Wraith Knight dead. I also forced morale on a bike unit which broke. Hydras popped the Vyper (he was using the Windrider Host). My blob was no longer a blob however. Yikes. Down 30 men and a Hydra in two rounds with more enemies on their way. Ouch.
On his turn 3 his flawless Deep Strike worked and he decided to try and finish it off. I was spread out though and he didn't hit as many Guardsman so I managed to lose just five and a Priest plus he hit some Tempestus and the Hydra but the Hydra survived it. Down two bike squads and Wraithknight dead, he went for it and sent his Dark eldar up to fire poison into me as well and that got me down to just my characters and a couple Lascannons (just could not roll a save). His bikes could only hit my Hydras (terrain) which were still chugging away so he fired at them. I did stop one of them from getting concealment though with my Psykr dice! So On my round 3, I ended that third bike squad while I had the chance with my LasCannons and Hydras (killed two and they bolted, ironically the heavy Bolter did one in). The Company Command who came from reserve and Militarum Tempestus destroyed the Wraithguard leaving his haemonculus feeling kinda lonely. So my Platoon Command shot him because they could. He had no special stuff on him. AGAIN my Sniper order and crazy Volley Guns did just enough on those Wraithguard to finish it out. Like the Wraithknight i wanted all hands on deck for the task since it was 6's or sniping on 4's depending on who had orders and who didn't. The Dark Eldar Raider that killed the Hydra earlier and whose warriors had throttled my Guardsman with poison were blown to smitherines by the Taurox Prime and the little second squad of Dark Eldar Warriors followed the same fate. That left me with a few good units left. I was feeling good.
His Scorpions which were sneaking up since the word go and then being given nothing to do because of Scatter Bikes finally reached something to kill and killed an entire Tempestus unit and the Company Command on turn four utterly avenging their Wraithguard brethren(but I did a ton with the overwatch flamers), and were left in the open, but damage had been done and he was threatening again. His bikes tried to kill the fast Taurox primes (but didn't) and then hid to make sure they could try for objectives on five. So I pretty much was able to concentrate what was left on the Scorpions, but dice ran cold and i just struggled to kill them. Dice didn't like me. There really was no point in trying to shoot them earlier while they were in cover but i finally had my chance and took it albeit it took way too much effort to whittle them so i had nothing left to go after bikes. The Taurox Primes did hit a lot though as usual, on the now not so confident Eldar, but the reward was...lacking. Lol. I also had scattered to cover multiple objectives by the end of the turn.
On turn five the last couple Scorpions including the wounded Exarch charged my last characters, hoping to wax a Warlord but died to Foreboding Overwatch (which was awesome). In the end there was one Lascannon left in the blob unit and some Psykers and a priest. Pretty decimated. Pretty much had two functional Hydras left, a few Miitarum Tempestus fragments. His Bikes and Farseers went out and had to flat out to try and tie the game (which he was able to do, of course, barely) so not a lot of shooting but did kill more Tempestus with Psychic powers. My turn, I scattered all my characters from the Lascannon, joining units where they could and rolled pretty badly on everything plus the Farseers tanked some wounds like champs. But I did kill a Warlock off one objective in melee to claim the victory by 5 points. Looking at the battlefield there was barely anything of my units in one piece, but I was on all five objectives, with him on four. He should have been on three, but again, the dice ran cold on my in the pivotal round (and really the last two rounds) forcing me to charge and win. I guess either way I won because of First Blood and Line Breaker. Even the Platoon Command tried to help!
That just kind of illustrates the way these fights go. Any number of things could have gone wrong for me (and did at the end). The failed charge by the Wraith Knight was kind of a big deal (he needed 7 inches even after the casualties so it was a very doable charge to start). Being able to deluge that WraithKnight because the Scatter Bikes had simply done their jobs too well was another turning point despite my horrendous losses. He really had nothing else to go after until turn three.
I never did swing a single time with that blob squad. hehehe. Too busy taking one for the team. But the Lascannon survived!
So that is why i want another Command group. The army orders make the difference. The Sniper wound into the WraithKNight was what pushed it over the edge. It took like a ton of sniper shots from three different units and all their other stuff to get it BUT... whatevs. Of course Monster Hunting Lascannons and Twin Linked meltas are going to do a good job with orders but the rest of the wounds had to come from somewhere because of Feel No Pain. Orders make the force so adaptable. Need more... precariouly balanced though. Not sure I can get more.
My problem I keep running into is if I go blob I don't really have much mobility and if I go mech I lose firepower and big orders to help with ignores cover.
Granted when I run blob I run 4 infantry squads. Each with lascannon and melta bombs on the sergeants. There's usually a commissar or priest attached and I usually have a vox for orders as my ccs usually is throwing some orders there way. Is it worth it to have melta bombs on the sergeants or should I just stick with power axes like some have suggested???
Running mechanized army I usually stick with a ccs and 3 vet squads. The ccs and 1 vet squad usually have 3 plasma and the other 2 vets are meltas. Is this usually a good ratio or should I be trying to get more vets?
In all my lists I usually include 1 vendetta and 2wyverns.
My last bane is that I run russes more often than not. They aren't really great but I still run them as I love tanks and russes are what got me playing guard in the first place. I've noticed the best standard russ out there is an eradicator with heavy bolters all around. I've never been disappointed with that russ.
For melta bombs, it depends. I can't remember if they only get 1 CC attack or their full typical compliment of attacks or not(3 on the charge, because Specialist Weapon means no bonus for 2 CCW, right?), and whether you plan on ever tackling vehicles or not. I'd rather do this than just power axes, or rather, instead of power axes, because S4 combined with Unwieldly means I don't think much will get wounded, even though said wounds will probably unsaved. Melta bombs would be less attacks (right?) but insta-gibs those T4 marines and threatens MCs decently, I'd say.
tankboy145 wrote: My problem I keep running into is if I go blob I don't really have much mobility and if I go mech I lose firepower and big orders to help with ignores cover.
Granted when I run blob I run 4 infantry squads. Each with lascannon and melta bombs on the sergeants. There's usually a commissar or priest attached and I usually have a vox for orders as my ccs usually is throwing some orders there way. Is it worth it to have melta bombs on the sergeants or should I just stick with power axes like some have suggested???
Running mechanized army I usually stick with a ccs and 3 vet squads. The ccs and 1 vet squad usually have 3 plasma and the other 2 vets are meltas. Is this usually a good ratio or should I be trying to get more vets?
In all my lists I usually include 1 vendetta and 2wyverns.
My last bane is that I run russes more often than not. They aren't really great but I still run them as I love tanks and russes are what got me playing guard in the first place. I've noticed the best standard russ out there is an eradicator with heavy bolters all around. I've never been disappointed with that russ.
Did you read the impromptu batrep i kinda wrote up here? I went with a mechanized approach with a blob as support. So you can kinda do both right?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KommissarKiln wrote: For melta bombs, it depends. I can't remember if they only get 1 CC attack or their full typical compliment of attacks or not(3 on the charge, because Specialist Weapon means no bonus for 2 CCW, right?), and whether you plan on ever tackling vehicles or not. I'd rather do this than just power axes, or rather, instead of power axes, because S4 combined with Unwieldly means I don't think much will get wounded, even though said wounds will probably unsaved. Melta bombs would be less attacks (right?) but insta-gibs those T4 marines and threatens MCs decently, I'd say.
Melta Bombs cant be used on normal stuff. Only Monstrous/Gargantuans and armor. One attack total when you use them.
Whoops, my mistake. I still definitely would bring meltabombs, especially because power axes aren't gonna do a thing to most vehicles or MCs. It'd probably be nice to take both, now that I have had things more thoroughly explained, but power weapons are just so expensive.
Maybe half of the sarges have meltabombs and the other half get axes? It'd be worrying to pay 20 ppm up to 4-5x for models just as squishy as the rest of the guys, and you'll probably lose some en route to whatever you're trying to assault anyways. ...But then again, if only one sarge gets the goodies, there's no target saturation, and a very small amount of Precision Shots or Barrage will take the power out of power blob easily. Bringing axes/MBs probably become more worth it the more points go into the blob: with priest(s), Primaris Psyker(s), more warm bodies, commissar, etc., you can keep your unit moving forwards, shield the more valuable guys, and hopefully get that nice 4+ invul on Divination (which helps TONS).
KommissarKiln wrote: Whoops, my mistake. I still definitely would bring meltabombs, especially because power axes aren't gonna do a thing to most vehicles or MCs. It'd probably be nice to take both, now that I have had things more thoroughly explained, but power weapons are just so expensive.
Maybe half of the sarges have meltabombs and the other half get axes? It'd be worrying to pay 20 ppm up to 4-5x for models just as squishy as the rest of the guys, and you'll probably lose some en route to whatever you're trying to assault anyways. ...But then again, if only one sarge gets the goodies, there's no target saturation, and a very small amount of Precision Shots or Barrage will take the power out of power blob easily. Bringing axes/MBs probably become more worth it the more points go into the blob: with priest(s), Primaris Psyker(s), more warm bodies, commissar, etc., you can keep your unit moving forwards, shield the more valuable guys, and hopefully get that nice 4+ invul on Divination (which helps TONS).
I lost 30 Guardsman before I could blink in the batrep i posted above and never swung an axe. One could EASILY argue based on that, that I "wasted" a lot of points on Axes and further could argue that the Merltabombs would have been critical had the WraithKnight made its charge. Yet in a ton of games outside this matchup one would argue that the Meltabombs were totally wasted and the Axes pivotal.
The truth is, you have to find a balancing act. It isn't a "Waste" just because you do or dn't get to use something. My Axes are like a nuclear deterrent against charging me against most things. Most enemies want nothing to do with tangling with that thing. This serves me. Other armies feel compelled to blockade but not attack simply to elongate their lives and limit my movement. legit, though in the end if i wash over you like a wave, pile in and consolidate, you may have accomlished little or i may just be farther than i would have been. Who knows?
There is no perfect answer because terrain and matchups vary so widely.
One thing you know for sure: without Axes, there will be a great many things you won't be well equipped to handle. You can bury them pretty effectively deep within the blob until needed and you wouldnt want to face a lot of the 40K universe without them. So costly or not, if you're even thinking blob, you gotta pretty much commit to it. Meltabomb on 4 dudes is 20 points. Will you really agonize over those points? Truth is you will. Having spent so many points on the unit already you might very well be tempted to go half and half. but then half of not enough is still not enough right?
And around we go.
I personally pay the points and say "hell... I may waste points in some matchups but unles its actually costing me games? Who cares. Never look at what it costs. Look at what its worth"
Agreed on the Eradicator. Especially if you want to take a tank commander/Pask in smaller matches, it's very good while being the cheapest Russ you can get.
I wonder how well I would've done if I went Pasknisher + Eradicator back in my first Combat Patrol tourney, plus maybe veterans with the +1 cover doctrine as the troops. Instead I ended up taking a Hellhound with multimelta, CCS and 2 4+ armor vet squads with 2 flamers and a melta each.
Warning: Anecdotes!
Spoiler:
The Hellhound was... alright with Torrent, though I feel the 36" pie plate would've gotten more hits overall. The MM was useful, however, as it ID'ed a Zoanthrope game 1 and stopped a couple of Biovores from bombarding my troops for a turn or two outside of synapse, and it helped me kill an incoming tervigon that the troops would've had a very tough time with. Ended up drawing this one.
Pasknisher would've done a much better job against some hyper-competitive Tau game 2, as he had 2 Broadsides with their ignores-LOSBS picked off my HQ for First Blood +StW before I got to move a model... He also had a team of ~4-5 Stealth suits, a Piranha, and some basic Kroot, and he tabled me turn 2 losing only a couple Kroot to lasguns, and my Hellhound missed with its MM the turn or two before it was wrecked. I probably would've gibbed the Piranha with Pasknisher, splitfire the Erad into the Stealth suits to make 2+ saves a 3+ armor instead...
Game 3, Pasknisher would've saved me from a group of 3 Canoptek Wraiths by forcing a lot of saves instead of getting 3 flamer hits, and the Eradicator could have pitched in or targetted some Immortals + Cryptek instead. If I successfully had killed the wraiths, or even bubble wrapped with my troops, I probably could've won instead of getting flattened 0-7 in a killpoint game.
Game 4 I should've won anyways, but I kind of took it easier on this somewhat poorly painted Eldar army that was makinga few tactical errors like piling all his troops into a tiny space in front of the Hellhound, and he couldn't decide whether terrain pieces were ruins or buildings. He was insistent on calling some crater-y terrain as dangerous, not just difficult, so because I lost 2 from that in my CCS, a Psychic Shriek did just enough damage to finish it when I should've survived, and when I was about to instagib his Warlord the turn before with a Multimelta, I decided "What the hay, you can get 6+ cover from that barbed wire, as it obscures you just a bit," which he promptly passed...
So the moral of the story is, even in a "friendly" tournament, I'm going to try to bring a little bit of cheesiness that is Pasknisher with me (but not D-flamer cheesiness! ), because free prizes is nice. 400 points when 1 troops is all you need works, 500 points would be pretty awesome, since those troops can get a Chimera and some special weapons, or give the tank HQ camo and hull/sponson weapons.
KommissarKiln wrote: Agreed on the Eradicator. Especially if you want to take a tank commander/Pask in smaller matches, it's very good while being the cheapest Russ you can get.
I wonder how well I would've done if I went Pasknisher + Eradicator back in my first Combat Patrol tourney, plus maybe veterans with the +1 cover doctrine as the troops. Instead I ended up taking a Hellhound with multimelta, CCS and 2 4+ armor vet squads with 2 flamers and a melta each.
Warning: Anecdotes!
Spoiler:
The Hellhound was... alright with Torrent, though I feel the 36" pie plate would've gotten more hits overall. The MM was useful, however, as it ID'ed a Zoanthrope game 1 and stopped a couple of Biovores from bombarding my troops for a turn or two outside of synapse, and it helped me kill an incoming tervigon that the troops would've had a very tough time with. Ended up drawing this one.
Pasknisher would've done a much better job against some hyper-competitive Tau game 2, as he had 2 Broadsides with their ignores-LOSBS picked off my HQ for First Blood +StW before I got to move a model... He also had a team of ~4-5 Stealth suits, a Piranha, and some basic Kroot, and he tabled me turn 2 losing only a couple Kroot to lasguns, and my Hellhound missed with its MM the turn or two before it was wrecked. I probably would've gibbed the Piranha with Pasknisher, splitfire the Erad into the Stealth suits to make 2+ saves a 3+ armor instead...
Game 3, Pasknisher would've saved me from a group of 3 Canoptek Wraiths by forcing a lot of saves instead of getting 3 flamer hits, and the Eradicator could have pitched in or targetted some Immortals + Cryptek instead. If I successfully had killed the wraiths, or even bubble wrapped with my troops, I probably could've won instead of getting flattened 0-7 in a killpoint game.
Game 4 I should've won anyways, but I kind of took it easier on this somewhat poorly painted Eldar army that was makinga few tactical errors like piling all his troops into a tiny space in front of the Hellhound, and he couldn't decide whether terrain pieces were ruins or buildings. He was insistent on calling some crater-y terrain as dangerous, not just difficult, so because I lost 2 from that in my CCS, a Psychic Shriek did just enough damage to finish it when I should've survived, and when I was about to instagib his Warlord the turn before with a Multimelta, I decided "What the hay, you can get 6+ cover from that barbed wire, as it obscures you just a bit," which he promptly passed...
So the moral of the story is, even in a "friendly" tournament, I'm going to try to bring a little bit of cheesiness that is Pasknisher with me (but not D-flamer cheesiness! ), because free prizes is nice. 400 points when 1 troops is all you need works, 500 points would be pretty awesome, since those troops can get a Chimera and some special weapons, or give the tank HQ camo and hull/sponson weapons.
Pask is just darn good in a Punisher. One of those units that even IG haters have to admit makes a mess of the place. Just a firehose, isn't he? And he's kinda multipurpose too.
KommissarKiln wrote: Whoops, my mistake. I still definitely would bring meltabombs, especially because power axes aren't gonna do a thing to most vehicles or MCs. It'd probably be nice to take both, now that I have had things more thoroughly explained, but power weapons are just so expensive.
Maybe half of the sarges have meltabombs and the other half get axes? It'd be worrying to pay 20 ppm up to 4-5x for models just as squishy as the rest of the guys, and you'll probably lose some en route to whatever you're trying to assault anyways. ...But then again, if only one sarge gets the goodies, there's no target saturation, and a very small amount of Precision Shots or Barrage will take the power out of power blob easily. Bringing axes/MBs probably become more worth it the more points go into the blob: with priest(s), Primaris Psyker(s), more warm bodies, commissar, etc., you can keep your unit moving forwards, shield the more valuable guys, and hopefully get that nice 4+ invul on Divination (which helps TONS).
I lost 30 Guardsman before I could blink in the batrep i posted above and never swung an axe. One could EASILY argue based on that, that I "wasted" a lot of points on Axes and further could argue that the Merltabombs would have been critical had the WraithKnight made its charge. Yet in a ton of games outside this matchup one would argue that the Meltabombs were totally wasted and the Axes pivotal.
The truth is, you have to find a balancing act. It isn't a "Waste" just because you do or dn't get to use something. My Axes are like a nuclear deterrent against charging me against most things. Most enemies want nothing to do with tangling with that thing. This serves me. Other armies feel compelled to blockade but not attack simply to elongate their lives and limit my movement. legit, though in the end if i wash over you like a wave, pile in and consolidate, you may have accomlished little or i may just be farther than i would have been. Who knows?
There is no perfect answer because terrain and matchups vary so widely.
One thing you know for sure: without Axes, there will be a great many things you won't be well equipped to handle. You can bury them pretty effectively deep within the blob until needed and you wouldnt want to face a lot of the 40K universe without them. So costly or not, if you're even thinking blob, you gotta pretty much commit to it. Meltabomb on 4 dudes is 20 points. Will you really agonize over those points? Truth is you will. Having spent so many points on the unit already you might very well be tempted to go half and half. but then half of not enough is still not enough right?
And around we go.
I personally pay the points and say "hell... I may waste points in some matchups but unles its actually costing me games? Who cares. Never look at what it costs. Look at what its worth"
I've noticed the best standard russ out there is an eradicator with heavy bolters all around. I've never been disappointed with that russ.
Amen. Great tank.
Ive been getting a lot of mileage on putting Krak grenades on Infantry squads, especially if im running them MSU. They are able to handle most vehicles and MCs as I have found weight of attacks even at Str 6 still can make a dent, and it only collectively raises the cost of a guardsman by one point.
Also eradicators are my go to tank too, I usually field them over any other variant for weight of wounds with sponsons and cheap armor 14 saturation.
Krak grenades ARE good and you can get a lot of them in that 40 man group. Again... Not ALL of the 40 have to have them either. So that's a rare situation where half and half wouldn't be bad because the ones in front are going to die eventually anyways. So just treat them as ablative wounds and mark the ones with grenades clearly or it could get annoying midgame. Lol.
Jancoran wrote: Krak grenades ARE good and you can get a lot of them in that 40 man group. Again... Not ALL of the 40 have to have them either. So that's a rare situation where half and half wouldn't be bad because the ones in front are going to die eventually anyways. So just treat them as ablative wounds and mark the ones with grenades clearly or it could get annoying midgame. Lol.
One of the few reasons I enjoyed using the DKoK siege brigade regardless of their awful point costs and weapon choices was that I could run 10+ squads all with krak grenades, a flamer and no worry of breaking to enemy fire. Ive replicated the same thing with mass MSU infantry squads with krak and have had some success, especially since my opponents enjoy running mech units, and I noticed that my poor russes had an awful habit of dying to marine krak grenades.
Yes. It was a big deal when Sisters of Battle gained Grenades. A BIG deal. I was pleased as punch. Adds s much to their threat profile. So i hear you on it. Really do.
I just feel that with how easily guardsmen die having a 40man blob with 4 lascannons, 4 power axes, 4 melta bombs and a priest/lvl2psyker just seems like too many eggs in one basket.
I agree Tankboy. I'd rather have Veterans in transports of some kind, even Valkyries. Two Veteran Squads kitted out modestly (3x flamers) with three specials, and Krak Grenades + a bare bones Vendetta is just over 200 points or so, so a pair of them is only 400 points and some change. The game seems to reward having multiple units on the board to divide the opponents fire up, having one massive squad to just absorb fire seems counter-intuitive to me.
Bear in mind, I know the blob can and does work for some, but I can't see it doing anything against any kind of competitive opponent running an optimized post-new necron codex.
I see 0 value in bringing lascannons to the blob. The blob has to move to get to assault, so why either A) stretch your blob out so the lascannons can remain stationary, costing your axe/meltabombs/characters ablative wounds, or B) spend an extra 80 points for 4 snapshots? There is no order (in the codex) that allows for a unit to move and shoot full BS/relentless, etc., so unless you bring a Lord Commissar or something AND get the relentless special rule, why not just put your heavy weapons somewhere else? And in case the blob is targetted by S6 or higher, losing a lascannon gives your enemy 2 birds for 1 stone. I'd much rather save the HWT for mech units that camp an objective turn 2 and onwards, or even just go for the more expensive HWS so I can at least fire full BS. I mean, BS 3 is fairly poor, but snapshots? No way.
Edit: But please, if I'm missing something here, I'd be happy to hear the advantages that I've overlooked.
tankboy145 wrote: I just feel that with how easily guardsmen die having a 40man blob with 4 lascannons, 4 power axes, 4 melta bombs and a priest/lvl2psyker just seems like too many eggs in one basket.
It is a lot of eggs. Too many? Nope. Hey if a Militarum Tempestus army with a blob squad attached can beat the dread Eldar with all the tricks, then yu have something. That blob squad COULD AFFORD the damage dealt to it which is part of why its good. It allowed my army to do its thing when it otherwise would have been decimated. I had enough units left to take all five objectives from the Jetbike wielding Eldar? Is that not a success? Heck yeah it is!
Here is a recommendation though. Try it. I'll admit this much: it takes 3-4 games to really think through how to use it. The trouble I ran into (personally) when I first tried it was that I simply didn't THINK to do certain things that it can do. Like the Run and shoot order is a good example of an ability that plays bigger than it sounds. Battle Focus happy Eldar alredy know very well to use that but the IG mentality isnt exactly one of extreme mobility and certainly less so with a blob! It also took me a little time to settle on the powers I wanted and how to maximize my choices. I had to slow down while rolling those and think "okay did I get all the Divination ones I NEED because I can go to sanctic or whatever once I do".
The blob also tempts you not to shoot but to instead charge everything but fearless units that can take at last one full round of it are happy to absorb you for three phases. Sometimes its better to kill a target when you can and let the Wraithstar hit you inevitably. Sure it hurts a little more but ultimately... Re-rollable 4+ invul saves make that trade off okay. Dont give into your urge to charge something jut because its right in front of you given the insane survivability of the blob. It isnt always the right move.
Anywho, you have to try it a few times to get used to it. I did.
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KommissarKiln wrote: I see 0 value in bringing lascannons to the blob. The blob has to move to get to assault, so why either A) stretch your blob out so the lascannons can remain stationary, costing your axe/meltabombs/characters ablative wounds, or B) spend an extra 80 points for 4 snapshots? There is no order (in the codex) that allows for a unit to move and shoot full BS/relentless, etc., so unless you bring a Lord Commissar or something AND get the relentless special rule, why not just put your heavy weapons somewhere else? And in case the blob is targetted by S6 or higher, losing a lascannon gives your enemy 2 birds for 1 stone. I'd much rather save the HWT for mech units that camp an objective turn 2 and onwards, or even just go for the more expensive HWS so I can at least fire full BS. I mean, BS 3 is fairly poor, but snapshots? No way.
Edit: But please, if I'm missing something here, I'd be happy to hear the advantages that I've overlooked.
The thing you're mising is: no one wants to assault it. So you may be moving for two or three rounds before getting into melee. And so those Lascannons do WORK in the meantime. Like I say: charging isnt alwys the right move. Also: no one can take out the Lascannons if they are in a blob. Sure they can try. sure they maaaaay succeed on occassion. Its not very likely until a LOT of guard have died. in the meantime: they helped kill a WraithKnight. is this not the sort of thing that registers as significant to you?
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Red__Thirst wrote: I agree Tankboy. I'd rather have Veterans in transports of some kind, even Valkyries. Two Veteran Squads kitted out modestly (3x flamers) with three specials, and Krak Grenades + a bare bones Vendetta is just over 200 points or so, so a pair of them is only 400 points and some change. The game seems to reward having multiple units on the board to divide the opponents fire up, having one massive squad to just absorb fire seems counter-intuitive to me.
Bear in mind, I know the blob can and does work for some, but I can't see it doing anything against any kind of competitive opponent running an optimized post-new necron codex.
Just my opinion on that. Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Yet...it did. I just wrote the batrep for my last eldar encounter up. Thats a competitive army it faced. So...
KommissarKiln wrote: I see 0 value in bringing lascannons to the blob. The blob has to move to get to assault, so why either A) stretch your blob out so the lascannons can remain stationary, costing your axe/meltabombs/characters ablative wounds, or B) spend an extra 80 points for 4 snapshots? There is no order (in the codex) that allows for a unit to move and shoot full BS/relentless, etc., so unless you bring a Lord Commissar or something AND get the relentless special rule, why not just put your heavy weapons somewhere else? And in case the blob is targetted by S6 or higher, losing a lascannon gives your enemy 2 birds for 1 stone. I'd much rather save the HWT for mech units that camp an objective turn 2 and onwards, or even just go for the more expensive HWS so I can at least fire full BS. I mean, BS 3 is fairly poor, but snapshots? No way.
Edit: But please, if I'm missing something here, I'd be happy to hear the advantages that I've overlooked.
The reason I do is because I've fought plenty jinking skimmers(eldar and crons) and monstrous creatures. The ignores cover order is huge especially when used with 4 twinlinked lascannons. Yes you can get a vendetta with 3 twinlinked lascannons but it doesn't ignore cover. Plenty of times my opponents will drive transports right up at me loaded with units that shoot enough to really hurt the blob or assault the blob and those transports usually hug cover. Ignores cover twinlinked lascannons usually help with that. Dark eldar was one of my toughest opponents for a long time until the ignores cover lascannons came about.
With how much cover and how easy cover is to achieve having some long ranged ignores cover is important. Running up the board with the blob generally means that the opponent is going to tear you apart as you advance. Guardsmen are rather slow and I would agree that power axe/melta bomb combo could work. I just find it hard to justify the unit.
The orders to get monster/tank hunter also seem very important for the high toughness units and for when you need to make sure you destroy a vehicle.
Guard really struggles with long range anti tank and seems to also struggle with really being able to do damage. My problem I notice with chimera vets is you need to get close to do any sort of damage. Usually when you get close is when the enemy can easily get side armor and tear the chimera apart with small arms fire which once the squishy guys are out they are pretty much guaranteed dead. I've almost decided to just run tauroxs instead to save points.
Conclave + blob is bonkers. Champions of Fenris + blob can also do work.
Invisibility, 4+ invuln saves from divination, FNP from biomancy, shrouded from telepathy, sanctuary etc. can all make for a hardy group of dudes, especially when you have to chew through 36 of them to get at the ones who are capable of doing damage. In progressive scoring missions, this baby practically guarantees the opposition will not get points from centrally accessible locations. Fair, it's slow, but if you put the libbies on bikes or include space wolf characters, you have a pretty decent ability to get the significant models where you need them to be, or break them off to chase small units/objectives. Canny players can use this against you and charge from a flank and pull the blob away from the center of the table, but you have deployment options in that case.
If you are worried about speed and independent targeting ability, you can include obsec scions from the MT codex or pod-vets to DS in on objectives later on in the game. You can also buy the blob chimeras/tauroxes to run around independently.
I agree though, the challenges are significant when using a blob. It slowly grinds things down and if you don't plan it well, it can easily get pulled out of position and isolated, allowing your enemy access to the more important components of your army.
I agree, Blob Guard can be quite effective especially with someone who knows how to play it, a friend of mine runs a very Infantry heavy IG army and has wrecked face in almost every game he has played in. Personally I have had alot of success utilizing an "Air Cavalry" approach with my Elysian Drop Troops and it has allowed me to keep pace with the new Power Dexes such as Space Marines, Eldar, Tau and Necrons. The Elysians have a Special Rule called "Combat Drop" which basically allows me to Drop Pod Assault with Valkyries, Sky Talons, Drop Sentinels and Sentry Turrets meaning I can do a null deployment and make my opponent waste a turn. Also having access to Officers of the Fleet and Ground Scanners I can effectively boost my Reserve Rolls and Nerfy my opponents, which is really effective especially against Tau Suit Deep Strikers. Unless my opponent has a ton of Sky Rays it will be a hard day for him trying to shoot x8 Flyers out of the sky.
Red__Thirst wrote: I agree Tankboy. I'd rather have Veterans in transports of some kind, even Valkyries. Two Veteran Squads kitted out modestly (3x flamers) with three specials, and Krak Grenades + a bare bones Vendetta is just over 200 points or so, so a pair of them is only 400 points and some change. The game seems to reward having multiple units on the board to divide the opponents fire up, having one massive squad to just absorb fire seems counter-intuitive to me.
-Red__Thirst-
The blob is just not good in the current meta yet people keep playing it and trying to make it work. I would much rather spam flyers... 6 obsec of these plus enough points left over to add allies or psyker support.
Here's another thought-- If you already have an HQ for a CAD, can you just take an extra CCS or two as their own formations for the free 24" extra-command bubble? Because I'd much rather them sit behind the blob in a Chimera and have a HWS of lascannons rather than bring said lascannons along and force snapshots. But with this huge orders range (and a 3rd order to boot), the CCS could easily do the shoot and run on the blob, whilst using ignores cover or Bring it Down on the lascannons who can sit back. 3 regular BS shots >> 4 *maybe*TL snapshots. It would not be very difficult to pick the Psyker that doesn't have 4+ invul as a power and stick him to the HWS if you want to babysit it with Ld 9 and Prescience. They'd need to deploy in ruins or behind an ADL or something to be at all survivable, but when you're throwing a power blob, Pasknisher, melta vets, etc. downrange, those 3 S9 shots with decent cover will likely attract a lot less attention.
Also, if you do stick lascannons behind an ADL and bring the formation CCS, you can just GtG and use Get Back in the Fight for basically free 2+ cover. At this point, the psyker wouldn't be worth it if he's GtG during the psychic phase, but a cheap commissar would be much cheaper Ld 9 for the unit for orders.
Red__Thirst wrote: I agree Tankboy. I'd rather have Veterans in transports of some kind, even Valkyries. Two Veteran Squads kitted out modestly (3x flamers) with three specials, and Krak Grenades + a bare bones Vendetta is just over 200 points or so, so a pair of them is only 400 points and some change. The game seems to reward having multiple units on the board to divide the opponents fire up, having one massive squad to just absorb fire seems counter-intuitive to me.
KommissarKiln wrote: Here's another thought-- If you already have an HQ for a CAD, can you just take an extra CCS or two as their own formations for the free 24" extra-command bubble? Because I'd much rather them sit behind the blob in a Chimera and have a HWS of lascannons rather than bring said lascannons along and force snapshots. But with this huge orders range (and a 3rd order to boot), the CCS could easily do the shoot and run on the blob, whilst using ignores cover or Bring it Down on the lascannons who can sit back. 3 regular BS shots >> 4 *maybe*TL snapshots. It would not be very difficult to pick the Psyker that doesn't have 4+ invul as a power and stick him to the HWS if you want to babysit it with Ld 9 and Prescience. They'd need to deploy in ruins or behind an ADL or something to be at all survivable, but when you're throwing a power blob, Pasknisher, melta vets, etc. downrange, those 3 S9 shots with decent cover will likely attract a lot less attention.
Also, if you do stick lascannons behind an ADL and bring the formation CCS, you can just GtG and use Get Back in the Fight for basically free 2+ cover. At this point, the psyker wouldn't be worth it if he's GtG during the psychic phase, but a cheap commissar would be much cheaper Ld 9 for the unit for orders.
That doesn't work because under the high command that ccs can only issue order to units from that detachment, so only that cadian battle group. You wouldn't be able to issue orders from that ccs to say and infantry unit from a separate combined arms detachment.
MoO aren't bad, esp with LoS and/or Servo skulls if you ally with the =][=.
The classic combo of vets in cover with camo cloaks and vox caster, going to ground, so they get a 2+ cover save, then order get back in the fight next turn.
A full squad of 10 ratlings can make a good distraction or threat bubble, really tie up your enemy's resources.
A favorite is the bring a Skyshield landing pad, and start turn 1 with a Vendetta on it, some nice 3x TL lascannon love on turn one, yes please.
Okay, so I've taken the CCS formation vs CAD thing into note, but even as CAD, a 12" bubble around a Chimera should be enough to order around an advancing blob and a HWS until the blob reaches combat, at which point it *probably* doesn't need orders anymore if it's just going to go from assault to assault on a good day. On a bad day, it either gets swept so it's not even a candidate for orders, or it breaks in combat (WHERE are your priests?) and run right back towards the CCS for a good ol' Get Back in the Fight!
So I've looked at some of the things through this thread, and decided to write up a rough draft for an 1850 list based on what units and things people have tended to advocate thus far (e.g. Pasknisher, Wyverns, blob, mech vets, Eradicator), but let me warn you now I based this off of the models I have on hand, so an edited/modified version of this list will probably fare better. But I think it's a general idea of what a good Guard list would look like nowadays:
Spoiler:
CAD
HQ CCS with 2 plasma guns, medipack, carapace armor on plasma guns, bolt pistol on commander, Chimera with camo netting 190
Tank Commander (Pask, Warlord) Punisher with camo, hull lascannon, sponson heavy bolters or multimeltas (more dakka or antitank?) Eradicator with camo, free hull heavy bolters 390 (cumulative 580)
Priest (stick in blob) 25 (cumulative 605)
2 ML 2 Primaris Psykers (Divination, stick in blob, pray for 4++ power on at least one) 150 (cumulative 755)
Troops PCS with 3 flamers, 1 heavy flamer (will ride in vendetta for linebreaker/backline objective taking) 55 (cumulative 810)
4 Infantry Squads with full krak grenades, melta bombs and p. axes on all sergeants 320 (cumulative 1130)
Lascannon HWS with attached Commissar 130 (cumulative 1260)
Hellhound with multimelta (this part is fluffier and probably subject to change) 135 (cumulative 1720)
Heavy Support Wyvern 65 (cumulative 1785)
Wyvern 65 (cumulative 1850)
I'm fething up my math somewhere on the little "cumulative points" bits, but this should add up to 1850 on the dot (EDIT: fixed). Tear it apart as you see fit. We're gonna try to find the best Guard list for eachdifferent flavor. This one seems to be mixed units, with some emphasis on the blob and tank HQ.
Regarding your list, let me say it's a solid start.
Let me make the following suggestions:
Ditch the Commissar and Heavy Weapon Squad. That is just asking your opponent to take first blood, as it isn't hard to delete 3x (or 4x w/ the Commissar) T:3 models with a 5+ armor save off the table. I know they have 2 wounds per heavy weapon base but there is a lot of ST:6 or higher shooting out there.
Use those freed up points to do the following: Add Heavy Bolter sponsons to your Eradicator, Also put Heavy Bolters on Pask too (More shots at better range).
Add carapace to the rest of you CCS (More survivable) and upgrade the veterans Taurox to a Chimera (Models allowing)
If you have enough points left over after that, grab a third wyvern and consider putting them all in a squadron so you can make it harder to lose first blood to a lucky pen roll on a lone tank. (Open topped tanks can have this happen even with a non AP:1/AP:2 hits, and it's even more likely if it does happen to be an AP:1 or AP:2 hit.)
That's just my thoughts on that. Take it easy for now and best of luck.
I think conscripts deserve more attention. For 115pts you can have a 30 model conscript unit plus a priest. They're going to win assaults vs more or less anything their points value and tie up anything they can't hurt forever. 3pts per model is just too good to pass up!
I'd not take a blob without the added conscripts if you have the models.
DoomMouse wrote: I think conscripts deserve more attention. For 115pts you can have a 30 model conscript unit plus a priest.
I agree, these guys can do work. That said, with no access to krak grenades or melta bombs, they are very vulnerable to a dreadnaught/other big scary thing. Additionally, most deathstars/strong combat units such as black knights or vanilla biker command squads will come with both hit and run as well as relentless. It's cheap and cheerful and can make things happen, but it's not the pit of despair that it once was.
Another thing I'd like to bring up: marker lights can boost snap shots, so the invisible guard blob is less scary than it once may have been. I am in the process of rethinking things.
In light of the aforementioned weakness of invisibility, I feel like we need to go MSU to minimize the insanity of tau mega unit fire while holding on to enough durability to survive scatbikes. This also limits the power of D-shot wraith lords since there's no one model that you really care about all that much. If I were to try something, I'd go:
6-10 Vet Squads with las cannon and forward sentries
2-4 Cadian Command Squads with voxes, banners, and plasma or melta guns in chimeras
FW Artillery gun or Artillery formation
A forward element in the form of obsec tanks, DSing scions, Psykana division for demon-spam, podding vets, space marine bikes, DKoK death riders (obsec ofc), or allied knights.
Strongest allies would probably be bikers, either ravenwing or WS, with a tech marine to reinforce and aegis line, giving the vets a 2+ cover save flat.
I know we're focused on mono-guard, but I really think that allies or FW do wonders for the army to a point where "competitive" necessitates the inclusion of other elements. If you want to say "what's the best I can do with mono-guard" that's a totally different conversation IMO.
I agree, these guys can do work. That said, with no access to krak grenades or melta bombs, they are very vulnerable to a dreadnaught/other big scary thing. Additionally, most deathstars/strong combat units such as black knights or vanilla biker command squads will come with both hit and run as well as relentless. It's cheap and cheerful and can make things happen, but it's not the pit of despair that it once was.
I agree this is true with hit and run, but they can still be pretty annoying! to be honest if they engage a dreadnought then they'll hold it up all game so they still earn their points back.
One thing I've found is that it can be helpful to allow the priest to die and the unit to run occasionally. I had a turn once when just the priest survived and prevented my entire army firing into my opponent's deathstar...
Strongest allies would probably be bikers, either ravenwing or WS
Couldn't agree with this more - I'm currently adding outflanking ravenwing allies to my guard infantry core. They have plenty of grav and melta to punish the units that the blobs can't engage effectively - particularly artillery, wraithknights and riptides (though EWO doesn't help)
They're pretty survivable with the jink re-rolls and add the much needed speed that a blob army lacks.
I was wondering where to put this, but thought I'd throw it out here...What do you all prefer to throw onto your chimeras' loadouts? Myself, I adore them as mini anti-inf bunkers, giving all of them HB and a Heavy Stubber, with a dozer blade also (I don't see many marine armies, and they'd have still gotten an AS with the ML), but wondering if anyone actually has different versions, odd choices, personal flavours and such too that could be considered useful?
I prefer the Multilasers higher STR. The AP matters against a few things but i'd rather have the STR which opens up its efficacy to more things.
For the Hull mounted weapon I tend to like the Heavy Bolter. it confuses the use of the vehicle less. It's an all out ranged machine of war, not a tweener (for me).
The guns on top along with the big guns really do get a fair number of shots generating. Its possible to throw 18 shots off of a Chimera, plus the Fire points. That's pretty nice.
I had a little luck with Azrael choosing the +3 charge and run warlord trait with an inquisitor with the scout book backed up by a priest. pretty good chance of getting a turn 2 charge
The first couple of pages of this thread were quite interesting, thank you.
On the subject of blobs, I'll just say that you need not look any further than IAXIII or Vraks. Only drawback is you are effectively Chaos, so your allies options suck.
koooaei wrote:Ok, things that do work.
- Large blob of guards with power axe and melta bomb sarges supported with an inquisitor, priest, psy support sometimes and VSG.
- Conscripts with priests or comissars. Best tarpit ever. Unless you get the priest sniped out.
- Artillery formation. s9 ap2 ignore cover, re-rolling scatters.
- Psycher formation. Best daemon factory in the game. Works extremely well with VSG also.
- Decurion comsquad special weapons + allied pods spam. Ignore cover/tl special weapons. Suicide comsquads. They are strong in taking out whatever needed. Very unfluffy, however. And requires allied pods.
The first is incredibly point intensive for a slow-crawling unit in a Maelstrom world.
Artillery formation is cool, or you can also take artillery gun carriages from IA, attach a commissar, and issue standard orders without need for a formation. Or do both to just end the world with templates.
The psykers don't get daemonology unless I am mistaken, so I assume you mean bring daemon allies who will use their warp charges to summon daemons? I think I would lean towards a landing pad to protect them, bonus points if you model it like a sacrificial circle.
koooaei wrote:140 pts give you 9 hb shots and s6 ap4 ignore cover large blast. There's a number of competitive units that have cover or invuls on par or even better that their armor. And against those units, a s6 ap4 ignore cover blast is not much worse or even better than s10 ap2 blast but than you have hb to back you up.
This tank can force saves quite effectively, is relatively well priced for what you get and has it's niche. What's not to like?
If I'm going to be just forcing saves, I really like the Punisher, especially when BS4 tank commanders and preferred enemy buffs are so widely available.
) to kill of the unit entirely. Maybe your enemy decides that the unit is effectively neutered when only 2 lasgun guardsmen are left. Their weaponry will be beyond pitiful... but ObSec 
, but I feel that the powerblob has been very thoroughly covered in this thread while other units have been somewhat underrepresented.
), because free prizes is nice. 400 points when 1 troops is all you need works, 500 points would be pretty awesome, since those troops can get a Chimera and some special weapons, or give the tank 
