Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
And Im just letting you know there isnt a more competitive one than we have. 8 of the top 40 ITC Generals are here and a lot of unmentioned ones. Believe me. Nothing here is new. And im not looking for ways to lose. If im doing it, you can take it as a fair bet that I'm doing it against a lot of juggernauts.
Ok den.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Usually, I would stay out of this, but I think you guys are being a little hard on him. He told us about the blob he plays, it's his preference. It may not be your definition of competitive but that doesn't mean that it cant do well or be competitive. Plus if hes actually spent time playing it, he clearly has a strategy that works for him. There nothing wrong with discussing it, but Red Thirst, you've been trying to tear it apart pretty aggressively from the start which is why I find your above response so humorous.
If you'd like to see an example of the blob he is talking about in action, there is a decent representation in this recent long war bat rep. Though they use a conclave over the primaris psykers, which is clearly a strong choice, but the basic principle of the unit idea is the same. They do very well overall, whatever you may think of the player decisions. It definitely lends credence to the idea that the unit can be very successful. Though I don't think the criticisms you've made are unfounded, it's still a valid choice if that's how he wants to run it. It can even do well and win.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/27 14:06:17
As with a lot of things, the superblob is a tool that can be used and since it's so many points, you really need to think about how the rest of your list is built to get the most from it. It's strong because of the layered psychic defense and significant combat output. Its weakness is that it's a single slow massive deathstar.
Compare it to a wolfstar or gravbike command squad star. The difference is these units are going to be MUCH faster, but will not have obsec. The superblob is brilliant for denying entire table quarters, but will struggle catching or defending fast MSU opponents.
Consider the meta: wraith knight, triptide, 6*3 scatter bikes is representative IMO. The blob will own the wriath knight and will eat riptides if it can catch them. What's left? The obsec jetbikes. You can replace this with ravenwing bikes or mounted assault bikes or free (grumble grumble) razorback spam. In all of these cases, the blob cannot catch these small, fast, obsec units. How to counter them then?
The rest of the list is in charge of shooting them down and capturing objectives. Again, death riders are brilliant because they can do both. Shy of that, you can spend 700 on the artillery formation and your remaining points on either russes (obsec from IA1) or mechvets/mechtoons.
A fun option would be taking the gorgon transport for the blob and just running it 18" up the field with a massive "shoot me" sign on them. I digress. Other solutions can include podding/elysian vets, allied white scars grav bikers, or allied scout-shame.
If you want to stick to pure codex AM, I think your best bet is either special weapons squads jumping out of vendettas or taurox vet spam. As much as I like the chimeras, 15 points is a lot to spend on a unit that is GOING to die, and AV12 doesn't help against haywire, D, grav, krak bike assaults, jump-shoot-run-tripple jump-backflip-pirouette warp spiders, flanking hornets, or m85" scat bikers, or inflitrating scouts especially when you're walking up the table.
Ether wrote: As with a lot of things, the superblob is a tool .
So true.
My Militarum Tempestus, which most would agree is a distressed Codex given that it really isn't a true codex but more like a Kauyon book now, uses IG allies. The blob squad does wonders for covering my glaring weakness in that list. well there's two really: Anti-air and anti-deathstars.
The Militarum Tempestus have some REALLY nice features that are probably under rated by my opponents until they see them on the table. the Orders for Militarum Tempestus are magical. The trouble is, the army does need more time than it has to kill the super tough stuff like Paladinstars or whatever example you might think of along that vein. STR 3 guns will do the job eventually at AP 3 (STR 4 with the bigger Volley Guns) and they can be made into AP 3 sniper weapons as needed against stuff that's really tough, but time is an issue especially against 2+ armor. Their orders really help BUT if there is a big wad of unpleasantness, we just may simply not have the time we need to whittle it before it can end us.
So enter the blob. It essentially wipes out any hope you have of killing it. It has died...once. Literally. The blob is nigh indestructible. That being said it can't be everywhere. The Militarum Tempestus really can.
So the synergy is really good. The Militarum Tempestus get to their spots. The blob whittles whats there with shooting and then the Tempestus finish it. The enemy is forced to realize that they are losing objective space too quickly and they need to be able to stay mobile as the blob inexorably comes towards them. So they try to slow it down by feeding it less valuable units. totally legit. But then any objectives BEHIND the blob become a pipe dream for them to reach. So ultimately the enemy HAS to commit to the blob pretty wholesale. This is difficult. It simply never dies (never obviously being Hyperbole as it did indeed die once in one of my games against Dark Eldar, damn Corpsethief claw).
The other problem is that the Blob can kill tanks from afar while moving. It can kill them up close and personal too. So speed doesn't necessarily avail the enemy much. All its doing is giving me free movement. How frustrating to know you could totally unload a pile of hurt on the blob but would not want to? Yet if you don't, you keep losing tanks or high value models? Pretty frustrating. What if your army is an assault army?
The anti-air thing REALLY shows itself in battles with Flying Circus's. in those games, they have a decided advantage. those flying monsters can whallop my Militarum units AND not have to land anywhere i can charge them. 4 lascannons while awesome, aren't as exciting when they fire at a flying Monstrous Creature! Good luck hitting often enough without some help. It can be done but you take a pretty good beating. I learned the hard way fighting Tzeentch flying Daemons how thoroughly they can clear little guys like Tempestus out, leaving ONLY the blob.
Enter in the anti-air. I take three Hydras. These complete my picture. Now I can force the enemies into the blob via fairly strong firepower (lots of AP 3 and Lascannons will motivate you to do something and soon) and if they have FMC's, I am hitting one 9 times in a round. FMC's now are forced to fight the Hydras instead of the Tempestus which buys them the time they really need. The Hydras do about 2 wounds a round against 3+ armored FMC's and 4.5 against 4+ FMC's (Cursed Earth Daemon saves or whatever). Plenty enough for them to want those Hydras dead. I'm coolio with that if it gets me extra time for the rest.
I found out Relic Plating is a worthwhile investment on the Hydras. Maybe not on most vehicles most of the time but for so few points? Meh. why not. if it saves me a lance power going off or the crazy psyker fusillade to my side, just once, its worth it. They are important enough against the right enemies to protect.
So as you say: a tool. A good one. Even a WraithKnight is none too excited about tangling with that many force weapons, Meltabombs and Lascannons. I imagine Imperial Knights feel the same and would rather fire from afar and stay bubble wrapped behind their Vanguard (or whomever they are allied with).
In a normal IG army, the supporting cast changes but the blobs basic function is the same.
Anywho, it isn't as if it's never lost. But the fantastic amount of punishment it can take makes me almost not even care when people target it.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
The inquisitor seems like a no brainer, a 6" scout move not slowed by terrain really gives them a good head start. Rad grenades combined with warhymms make them actually quite deadly in combat, and everything is fairly low cost. With the amount of grav out and D in the current meta, many lists will struggle dealing with blobs.
You could do an inquisitor. the three Detachment maximum generally does not stop that from happening. My Militarum Tempestus have two Detachments and could therefore easily add the inquisitors.
Its a pretty tight fit though. I think that there is probably a point of diminishing returns in giving the blob YET MORE power! The Priests need to be a threesome because their LD does suck. The Psykers need to be a threesome because getting the right powers is important.
Strategic Warlord Traits could help also. But yeah a 6" free move is kind of a big deal.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
What is the general idea for guard as competitive play or what units work and don't, it seems like it's all over the place with blobs and everyone having their own idea. I assume pask in punisher is our go to hq?
Is there any merit to running infantry platoons in tauroxs and trying to make use of msu's all with objective secured?
tankboy145 wrote: What is the general idea for guard as competitive play or what units work and don't, it seems like it's all over the place with blobs and everyone having their own idea. I assume pask in punisher is our go to hq?
Is there any merit to running infantry platoons in tauroxs and trying to make use of msu's all with objective secured?
Obsec is a thing. Tons of it is twice as much of a thing!
I play Militarum Tempestus with an Astra Militarum allied detachment. Obsec everywhere!
tankboy145 wrote: What is the general idea for guard as competitive play or what units work and don't, it seems like it's all over the place with blobs and everyone having their own idea. I assume pask in punisher is our go to hq?
Is there any merit to running infantry platoons in tauroxs and trying to make use of msu's all with objective secured?
Obsec is a thing. Tons of it is twice as much of a thing!
I play Militarum Tempestus with an Astra Militarum allied detachment. Obsec everywhere!
40 Imperial Guardsman (4x power Axes, 4 LasCannons)
5 man Platoon Command
935pts
.
It's interesting seeing a list without Wyverns and still appearing to be highly competitive. How does this list fare in Eternal War missions? I'm running 10 Scions with meltaguns in a Valkyrie for some extra armour busting power. That being said, I play in quite an armour heavy meta too.
3,500 (and building) ASM 3,000 Blood Angels 1500 Eldar (abandoned)
AoS - Beastclaw Raiders, Ironjawz, Night Goblins, and Ogors - Destruction remains unvanquished!
Just fine. Militarum Tempestus ORDERS are amaze balls. Pretty much can take on anything as long as you have enough orders. If i could i would definitely have a third command team in there. Have wrestled with that for a long time. But it play pretty well as it is anyways.
The entire army has Krak except the Guardsmen. so armor is fine. Meltas take down the BIG armor and the Taurox Primes take down the small armor. Everyone to his strengths. In an armor heavy meta, this does well because it can stun or destroy most of it in a fairly small amount of time. The soldiers of the enemy army generally arent waiting around for a secon round of getting jostled around i ntheir transports. So they get out and once out, the AP 3 in the army can express itself. The army scatters well so it is difficult for enemies to focus too much on any one unit. spreading the enemy out is geneally a strategy i seek anyways.
The Militarum Tempestus fight a lot like some Dark Eldar armies. I played a fair amount of Dark Eldar before playing these so I found the transition fairly painless. Like Dark eldar, you WILL take losses, sometimes a frightening number. It's a gritty army, one you dont play if you can't handle "how much better" everyone is than you. Lol. If you preoccupy your mind with such fruitless thoughts, you probably don't enjoy them anyways. You'll be outclassed by most of the galaxy but you make up for it in mobility and most of all UTILITY
The blob is a hammer blow. It makes spreading the enemy army out a LOT easier. Driving it like a wedge into them makes them wanna' spread out and stay away from it most of the time and that allows the disparate units of Tempestus to do their best work.
The Lascannons will hurt and they dont miss often thanks to orders and Psykers. So you are hitting plenty if armor is your enemies jam, and making them wonder if armor was such a great idea. Sooo maaaaany grenades and Lacannons and meltas and STR 7 Twin linked shots!
2+ armor spam is the big thing. That can hurt. So the blob has to be ready to engage those especially and that was a big problem or me before I realized the answer. So just be aware that you really haven't got much that can deal with such things, and the meltas while cool are not copious enough to really threaten a Riptide fast enough. So you kind of have to whallop those with weight of fire and concentrate efforts on easier things while the blob advances ever onward. The blob if it gets the Psychic power to Rend is pretty darn scary against any armor. Sheer number of attacks that can rend is pretty awesome.
Someones suggestion on the Inquisitor is quite nice and would serve my list pretty well so i might look into getting the scout one in there. Seems legit.
Aerial targets are an issue also so the Hydras were important. Too many blistering rounds of fire from Psyker flyers taught me the value of taking it seriously. Belakor and the like need to be stopped and forced at minimum to make some saves early. Skimmers arent rare, so the Hydras can do a number on Eldar, Dark Eldar and Necron transports through their hail of fire and the new White Scar formation with speeders is silly pants awesome, so now you have to worry about that. this list already kind of has that on lockdown.
I am also playing with the idea of getting an Enginseer to help split my fire between more targets. Just wrote an article about them.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2016/02/01 00:57:32
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
MT are not an easy army to play - that's for sure. Very unforgiving and luck-dependent. Basically, if you roll below averge and the enemy doesn't get too hurt - which happens from time to time - nothing's gona keep your t3 4+ ws3 non-fearless dudes there for long. Unless your opponents also rolls insanely afwul. Which also happens but way less often cause he needs lower average result to erase you.
Thus said, an army provides a bunch of interesting possibilities. ap3 even with s3 can still hurt forcing 3+ dudes to hug cover. Everything can deepstrike. Even if you take transports, noone's preventing you from just going parachute the hell out of them. Special weapons and orders. But man, 13 ppm for a t3 4+ non-fearless dude is tough to make work. Guardian warhost has it easier, really.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/02/01 04:21:55
koooaei wrote: MT are not an easy army to play - that's for sure. Very unforgiving and luck-dependent. Basically, if you roll below averge and the enemy doesn't get too hurt - which happens from time to time - nothing's gona keep your t3 4+ ws3 non-fearless dudes there for long. Unless your opponents also rolls insanely afwul. Which also happens but way less often cause he needs lower average result to erase you.
Thus said, an army provides a bunch of interesting possibilities. ap3 even with s3 can still hurt forcing 3+ dudes to hug cover. Everything can deepstrike. Even if you take transports, noone's preventing you from just going parachute the hell out of them. Special weapons and orders. But man, 13 ppm for a t3 4+ non-fearless dude is tough to make work. Guardian warhost has it easier, really.
As I explained, if you don't have a stomach for losses then you can't play Militarum Tempestus. That's really what it comes down to honestly.
This particular list definitely FEELS up hill at points in the game. Yet it scores points quite easily. So while you are taking grievous losses, the enemy is losing ground in the points game. Only in Kill points do they really feel any real pressure, and in those games you feature your blob much more, going second and all those kinds of things. There isn't anything you can do to make up for that weakness other than be better than the other guy at the game and pick your losses carefully. It's like Dark Eldar in so many ways in the sense of how you kind of have to finesse some games.
An example of a game against a recent Eldar opponent, since its very fresh in my mind:
He brought his 3 man bike squads with an attached Warlock on three of the units (maybe four, I forget?) to make them unhittable. His Wraithguard were flawlessly deep striking in with a Webway Portal later. His Wraithknight held serve up the middle to try and tie up the blob ASAP and his Psyker dice were 10 or 11 to my base 5, so he had at least a shot to shut down a power once in a while if he threw all his dice at it. So he was as set as he was going to be. In that instance, as I deployed second and he wanted to get the jump on me with casting his powers and disallow me mine for a round, he went first. Sound choice. I decided not to deploy anything but the blob and the Hydras (bubble wrapped against his deep strike). As you will see this was on some level a bit of a wasted effort for me.
Round one went as expected. He slaughtered 15 guardsman without trying, and if not for cover and him failing his Guide roll it could have been a little worse but I had at least gotten the benefit of some decent terrain. He cast Conceal on all his bikes that could do it (I stopped nothing) and his WraithKnight came right up the gut. Rough start. On my turn i used the ignores cover power plus the run and shoot order. Hydras and Guard combined to kill off a Bike Squad. First blood. A little anti-climactic but we'll take it.
On second turn he rolled well and I lost 15 more Guardsman, Wraithguard stayed in Reserve, Raider and some Dark eldar came on. Scorpions slunk forward again. The Raider got a lucky shot on a Hydra, exploding it. Guardsman casualties helped me because he missed the charge with the Wraith Knight which I had run away from after shooting. My Militarum Tempestus came in and between the Sniper shots (2 but he made one of his FnP so i caused just one with a Sniper shot), meltas (2 unsaved), and Lascannons( 3 wounds with Monster Hunter!). Wraith Knight dead. I also forced morale on a bike unit which broke. Hydras popped the Vyper (he was using the Windrider Host). My blob was no longer a blob however. Yikes. Down 30 men and a Hydra in two rounds with more enemies on their way. Ouch.
On his turn 3 his flawless Deep Strike worked and he decided to try and finish it off. I was spread out though and he didn't hit as many Guardsman so I managed to lose just five and a Priest plus he hit some Tempestus and the Hydra but the Hydra survived it. Down two bike squads and Wraithknight dead, he went for it and sent his Dark eldar up to fire poison into me as well and that got me down to just my characters and a couple Lascannons (just could not roll a save). His bikes could only hit my Hydras (terrain) which were still chugging away so he fired at them. I did stop one of them from getting concealment though with my Psykr dice! So On my round 3, I ended that third bike squad while I had the chance with my LasCannons and Hydras (killed two and they bolted, ironically the heavy Bolter did one in). The Company Command who came from reserve and Militarum Tempestus destroyed the Wraithguard leaving his haemonculus feeling kinda lonely. So my Platoon Command shot him because they could. He had no special stuff on him. AGAIN my Sniper order and crazy Volley Guns did just enough on those Wraithguard to finish it out. Like the Wraithknight i wanted all hands on deck for the task since it was 6's or sniping on 4's depending on who had orders and who didn't. The Dark Eldar Raider that killed the Hydra earlier and whose warriors had throttled my Guardsman with poison were blown to smitherines by the Taurox Prime and the little second squad of Dark Eldar Warriors followed the same fate. That left me with a few good units left. I was feeling good.
His Scorpions which were sneaking up since the word go and then being given nothing to do because of Scatter Bikes finally reached something to kill and killed an entire Tempestus unit and the Company Command on turn four utterly avenging their Wraithguard brethren(but I did a ton with the overwatch flamers), and were left in the open, but damage had been done and he was threatening again. His bikes tried to kill the fast Taurox primes (but didn't) and then hid to make sure they could try for objectives on five. So I pretty much was able to concentrate what was left on the Scorpions, but dice ran cold and i just struggled to kill them. Dice didn't like me. There really was no point in trying to shoot them earlier while they were in cover but i finally had my chance and took it albeit it took way too much effort to whittle them so i had nothing left to go after bikes. The Taurox Primes did hit a lot though as usual, on the now not so confident Eldar, but the reward was...lacking. Lol. I also had scattered to cover multiple objectives by the end of the turn.
On turn five the last couple Scorpions including the wounded Exarch charged my last characters, hoping to wax a Warlord but died to Foreboding Overwatch (which was awesome). In the end there was one Lascannon left in the blob unit and some Psykers and a priest. Pretty decimated. Pretty much had two functional Hydras left, a few Miitarum Tempestus fragments. His Bikes and Farseers went out and had to flat out to try and tie the game (which he was able to do, of course, barely) so not a lot of shooting but did kill more Tempestus with Psychic powers. My turn, I scattered all my characters from the Lascannon, joining units where they could and rolled pretty badly on everything plus the Farseers tanked some wounds like champs. But I did kill a Warlock off one objective in melee to claim the victory by 5 points. Looking at the battlefield there was barely anything of my units in one piece, but I was on all five objectives, with him on four. He should have been on three, but again, the dice ran cold on my in the pivotal round (and really the last two rounds) forcing me to charge and win. I guess either way I won because of First Blood and Line Breaker. Even the Platoon Command tried to help!
That just kind of illustrates the way these fights go. Any number of things could have gone wrong for me (and did at the end). The failed charge by the Wraith Knight was kind of a big deal (he needed 7 inches even after the casualties so it was a very doable charge to start). Being able to deluge that WraithKnight because the Scatter Bikes had simply done their jobs too well was another turning point despite my horrendous losses. He really had nothing else to go after until turn three.
I never did swing a single time with that blob squad. hehehe. Too busy taking one for the team. But the Lascannon survived!
So that is why i want another Command group. The army orders make the difference. The Sniper wound into the WraithKNight was what pushed it over the edge. It took like a ton of sniper shots from three different units and all their other stuff to get it BUT... whatevs. Of course Monster Hunting Lascannons and Twin Linked meltas are going to do a good job with orders but the rest of the wounds had to come from somewhere because of Feel No Pain. Orders make the force so adaptable. Need more... precariouly balanced though. Not sure I can get more.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/02/01 08:48:57
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
My problem I keep running into is if I go blob I don't really have much mobility and if I go mech I lose firepower and big orders to help with ignores cover.
Granted when I run blob I run 4 infantry squads. Each with lascannon and melta bombs on the sergeants. There's usually a commissar or priest attached and I usually have a vox for orders as my ccs usually is throwing some orders there way. Is it worth it to have melta bombs on the sergeants or should I just stick with power axes like some have suggested???
Running mechanized army I usually stick with a ccs and 3 vet squads. The ccs and 1 vet squad usually have 3 plasma and the other 2 vets are meltas. Is this usually a good ratio or should I be trying to get more vets?
In all my lists I usually include 1 vendetta and 2wyverns.
My last bane is that I run russes more often than not. They aren't really great but I still run them as I love tanks and russes are what got me playing guard in the first place. I've noticed the best standard russ out there is an eradicator with heavy bolters all around. I've never been disappointed with that russ.
For melta bombs, it depends. I can't remember if they only get 1 CC attack or their full typical compliment of attacks or not(3 on the charge, because Specialist Weapon means no bonus for 2 CCW, right?), and whether you plan on ever tackling vehicles or not. I'd rather do this than just power axes, or rather, instead of power axes, because S4 combined with Unwieldly means I don't think much will get wounded, even though said wounds will probably unsaved. Melta bombs would be less attacks (right?) but insta-gibs those T4 marines and threatens MCs decently, I'd say.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/02 01:03:55
tankboy145 wrote: My problem I keep running into is if I go blob I don't really have much mobility and if I go mech I lose firepower and big orders to help with ignores cover.
Granted when I run blob I run 4 infantry squads. Each with lascannon and melta bombs on the sergeants. There's usually a commissar or priest attached and I usually have a vox for orders as my ccs usually is throwing some orders there way. Is it worth it to have melta bombs on the sergeants or should I just stick with power axes like some have suggested???
Running mechanized army I usually stick with a ccs and 3 vet squads. The ccs and 1 vet squad usually have 3 plasma and the other 2 vets are meltas. Is this usually a good ratio or should I be trying to get more vets?
In all my lists I usually include 1 vendetta and 2wyverns.
My last bane is that I run russes more often than not. They aren't really great but I still run them as I love tanks and russes are what got me playing guard in the first place. I've noticed the best standard russ out there is an eradicator with heavy bolters all around. I've never been disappointed with that russ.
Did you read the impromptu batrep i kinda wrote up here? I went with a mechanized approach with a blob as support. So you can kinda do both right?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KommissarKiln wrote: For melta bombs, it depends. I can't remember if they only get 1 CC attack or their full typical compliment of attacks or not(3 on the charge, because Specialist Weapon means no bonus for 2 CCW, right?), and whether you plan on ever tackling vehicles or not. I'd rather do this than just power axes, or rather, instead of power axes, because S4 combined with Unwieldly means I don't think much will get wounded, even though said wounds will probably unsaved. Melta bombs would be less attacks (right?) but insta-gibs those T4 marines and threatens MCs decently, I'd say.
Melta Bombs cant be used on normal stuff. Only Monstrous/Gargantuans and armor. One attack total when you use them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/02 03:43:25
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Whoops, my mistake. I still definitely would bring meltabombs, especially because power axes aren't gonna do a thing to most vehicles or MCs. It'd probably be nice to take both, now that I have had things more thoroughly explained, but power weapons are just so expensive.
Maybe half of the sarges have meltabombs and the other half get axes? It'd be worrying to pay 20 ppm up to 4-5x for models just as squishy as the rest of the guys, and you'll probably lose some en route to whatever you're trying to assault anyways. ...But then again, if only one sarge gets the goodies, there's no target saturation, and a very small amount of Precision Shots or Barrage will take the power out of power blob easily. Bringing axes/MBs probably become more worth it the more points go into the blob: with priest(s), Primaris Psyker(s), more warm bodies, commissar, etc., you can keep your unit moving forwards, shield the more valuable guys, and hopefully get that nice 4+ invul on Divination (which helps TONS).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/02 05:03:23
KommissarKiln wrote: Whoops, my mistake. I still definitely would bring meltabombs, especially because power axes aren't gonna do a thing to most vehicles or MCs. It'd probably be nice to take both, now that I have had things more thoroughly explained, but power weapons are just so expensive.
Maybe half of the sarges have meltabombs and the other half get axes? It'd be worrying to pay 20 ppm up to 4-5x for models just as squishy as the rest of the guys, and you'll probably lose some en route to whatever you're trying to assault anyways. ...But then again, if only one sarge gets the goodies, there's no target saturation, and a very small amount of Precision Shots or Barrage will take the power out of power blob easily. Bringing axes/MBs probably become more worth it the more points go into the blob: with priest(s), Primaris Psyker(s), more warm bodies, commissar, etc., you can keep your unit moving forwards, shield the more valuable guys, and hopefully get that nice 4+ invul on Divination (which helps TONS).
I lost 30 Guardsman before I could blink in the batrep i posted above and never swung an axe. One could EASILY argue based on that, that I "wasted" a lot of points on Axes and further could argue that the Merltabombs would have been critical had the WraithKnight made its charge. Yet in a ton of games outside this matchup one would argue that the Meltabombs were totally wasted and the Axes pivotal.
The truth is, you have to find a balancing act. It isn't a "Waste" just because you do or dn't get to use something. My Axes are like a nuclear deterrent against charging me against most things. Most enemies want nothing to do with tangling with that thing. This serves me. Other armies feel compelled to blockade but not attack simply to elongate their lives and limit my movement. legit, though in the end if i wash over you like a wave, pile in and consolidate, you may have accomlished little or i may just be farther than i would have been. Who knows?
There is no perfect answer because terrain and matchups vary so widely.
One thing you know for sure: without Axes, there will be a great many things you won't be well equipped to handle. You can bury them pretty effectively deep within the blob until needed and you wouldnt want to face a lot of the 40K universe without them. So costly or not, if you're even thinking blob, you gotta pretty much commit to it. Meltabomb on 4 dudes is 20 points. Will you really agonize over those points? Truth is you will. Having spent so many points on the unit already you might very well be tempted to go half and half. but then half of not enough is still not enough right?
And around we go.
I personally pay the points and say "hell... I may waste points in some matchups but unles its actually costing me games? Who cares. Never look at what it costs. Look at what its worth"
Agreed on the Eradicator. Especially if you want to take a tank commander/Pask in smaller matches, it's very good while being the cheapest Russ you can get.
I wonder how well I would've done if I went Pasknisher + Eradicator back in my first Combat Patrol tourney, plus maybe veterans with the +1 cover doctrine as the troops. Instead I ended up taking a Hellhound with multimelta, CCS and 2 4+ armor vet squads with 2 flamers and a melta each.
Warning: Anecdotes!
Spoiler:
The Hellhound was... alright with Torrent, though I feel the 36" pie plate would've gotten more hits overall. The MM was useful, however, as it ID'ed a Zoanthrope game 1 and stopped a couple of Biovores from bombarding my troops for a turn or two outside of synapse, and it helped me kill an incoming tervigon that the troops would've had a very tough time with. Ended up drawing this one.
Pasknisher would've done a much better job against some hyper-competitive Tau game 2, as he had 2 Broadsides with their ignores-LOSBS picked off my HQ for First Blood +StW before I got to move a model... He also had a team of ~4-5 Stealth suits, a Piranha, and some basic Kroot, and he tabled me turn 2 losing only a couple Kroot to lasguns, and my Hellhound missed with its MM the turn or two before it was wrecked. I probably would've gibbed the Piranha with Pasknisher, splitfire the Erad into the Stealth suits to make 2+ saves a 3+ armor instead...
Game 3, Pasknisher would've saved me from a group of 3 Canoptek Wraiths by forcing a lot of saves instead of getting 3 flamer hits, and the Eradicator could have pitched in or targetted some Immortals + Cryptek instead. If I successfully had killed the wraiths, or even bubble wrapped with my troops, I probably could've won instead of getting flattened 0-7 in a killpoint game.
Game 4 I should've won anyways, but I kind of took it easier on this somewhat poorly painted Eldar army that was makinga few tactical errors like piling all his troops into a tiny space in front of the Hellhound, and he couldn't decide whether terrain pieces were ruins or buildings. He was insistent on calling some crater-y terrain as dangerous, not just difficult, so because I lost 2 from that in my CCS, a Psychic Shriek did just enough damage to finish it when I should've survived, and when I was about to instagib his Warlord the turn before with a Multimelta, I decided "What the hay, you can get 6+ cover from that barbed wire, as it obscures you just a bit," which he promptly passed...
So the moral of the story is, even in a "friendly" tournament, I'm going to try to bring a little bit of cheesiness that is Pasknisher with me (but not D-flamer cheesiness! ), because free prizes is nice. 400 points when 1 troops is all you need works, 500 points would be pretty awesome, since those troops can get a Chimera and some special weapons, or give the tank HQ camo and hull/sponson weapons.
KommissarKiln wrote: Agreed on the Eradicator. Especially if you want to take a tank commander/Pask in smaller matches, it's very good while being the cheapest Russ you can get.
I wonder how well I would've done if I went Pasknisher + Eradicator back in my first Combat Patrol tourney, plus maybe veterans with the +1 cover doctrine as the troops. Instead I ended up taking a Hellhound with multimelta, CCS and 2 4+ armor vet squads with 2 flamers and a melta each.
Warning: Anecdotes!
Spoiler:
The Hellhound was... alright with Torrent, though I feel the 36" pie plate would've gotten more hits overall. The MM was useful, however, as it ID'ed a Zoanthrope game 1 and stopped a couple of Biovores from bombarding my troops for a turn or two outside of synapse, and it helped me kill an incoming tervigon that the troops would've had a very tough time with. Ended up drawing this one.
Pasknisher would've done a much better job against some hyper-competitive Tau game 2, as he had 2 Broadsides with their ignores-LOSBS picked off my HQ for First Blood +StW before I got to move a model... He also had a team of ~4-5 Stealth suits, a Piranha, and some basic Kroot, and he tabled me turn 2 losing only a couple Kroot to lasguns, and my Hellhound missed with its MM the turn or two before it was wrecked. I probably would've gibbed the Piranha with Pasknisher, splitfire the Erad into the Stealth suits to make 2+ saves a 3+ armor instead...
Game 3, Pasknisher would've saved me from a group of 3 Canoptek Wraiths by forcing a lot of saves instead of getting 3 flamer hits, and the Eradicator could have pitched in or targetted some Immortals + Cryptek instead. If I successfully had killed the wraiths, or even bubble wrapped with my troops, I probably could've won instead of getting flattened 0-7 in a killpoint game.
Game 4 I should've won anyways, but I kind of took it easier on this somewhat poorly painted Eldar army that was makinga few tactical errors like piling all his troops into a tiny space in front of the Hellhound, and he couldn't decide whether terrain pieces were ruins or buildings. He was insistent on calling some crater-y terrain as dangerous, not just difficult, so because I lost 2 from that in my CCS, a Psychic Shriek did just enough damage to finish it when I should've survived, and when I was about to instagib his Warlord the turn before with a Multimelta, I decided "What the hay, you can get 6+ cover from that barbed wire, as it obscures you just a bit," which he promptly passed...
So the moral of the story is, even in a "friendly" tournament, I'm going to try to bring a little bit of cheesiness that is Pasknisher with me (but not D-flamer cheesiness! ), because free prizes is nice. 400 points when 1 troops is all you need works, 500 points would be pretty awesome, since those troops can get a Chimera and some special weapons, or give the tank HQ camo and hull/sponson weapons.
Pask is just darn good in a Punisher. One of those units that even IG haters have to admit makes a mess of the place. Just a firehose, isn't he? And he's kinda multipurpose too.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
KommissarKiln wrote: Whoops, my mistake. I still definitely would bring meltabombs, especially because power axes aren't gonna do a thing to most vehicles or MCs. It'd probably be nice to take both, now that I have had things more thoroughly explained, but power weapons are just so expensive.
Maybe half of the sarges have meltabombs and the other half get axes? It'd be worrying to pay 20 ppm up to 4-5x for models just as squishy as the rest of the guys, and you'll probably lose some en route to whatever you're trying to assault anyways. ...But then again, if only one sarge gets the goodies, there's no target saturation, and a very small amount of Precision Shots or Barrage will take the power out of power blob easily. Bringing axes/MBs probably become more worth it the more points go into the blob: with priest(s), Primaris Psyker(s), more warm bodies, commissar, etc., you can keep your unit moving forwards, shield the more valuable guys, and hopefully get that nice 4+ invul on Divination (which helps TONS).
I lost 30 Guardsman before I could blink in the batrep i posted above and never swung an axe. One could EASILY argue based on that, that I "wasted" a lot of points on Axes and further could argue that the Merltabombs would have been critical had the WraithKnight made its charge. Yet in a ton of games outside this matchup one would argue that the Meltabombs were totally wasted and the Axes pivotal.
The truth is, you have to find a balancing act. It isn't a "Waste" just because you do or dn't get to use something. My Axes are like a nuclear deterrent against charging me against most things. Most enemies want nothing to do with tangling with that thing. This serves me. Other armies feel compelled to blockade but not attack simply to elongate their lives and limit my movement. legit, though in the end if i wash over you like a wave, pile in and consolidate, you may have accomlished little or i may just be farther than i would have been. Who knows?
There is no perfect answer because terrain and matchups vary so widely.
One thing you know for sure: without Axes, there will be a great many things you won't be well equipped to handle. You can bury them pretty effectively deep within the blob until needed and you wouldnt want to face a lot of the 40K universe without them. So costly or not, if you're even thinking blob, you gotta pretty much commit to it. Meltabomb on 4 dudes is 20 points. Will you really agonize over those points? Truth is you will. Having spent so many points on the unit already you might very well be tempted to go half and half. but then half of not enough is still not enough right?
And around we go.
I personally pay the points and say "hell... I may waste points in some matchups but unles its actually costing me games? Who cares. Never look at what it costs. Look at what its worth"
I've noticed the best standard russ out there is an eradicator with heavy bolters all around. I've never been disappointed with that russ.
Amen. Great tank.
Ive been getting a lot of mileage on putting Krak grenades on Infantry squads, especially if im running them MSU. They are able to handle most vehicles and MCs as I have found weight of attacks even at Str 6 still can make a dent, and it only collectively raises the cost of a guardsman by one point.
Also eradicators are my go to tank too, I usually field them over any other variant for weight of wounds with sponsons and cheap armor 14 saturation.
17,000 points (Valhallan)
10,000 points
6,000 points (Order of Our Martyred Lady)
Proud Countess of House Terryn hosting 7 Knights, 2 Dominus Knights, and 8 Armigers
Stormcast Eternals: 7,000 points
"Remember, Orks are weak and cowardly, they are easily beat in close combat and their tusks, while menacing, can easily be pulled out with a sharp tug"
Krak grenades ARE good and you can get a lot of them in that 40 man group. Again... Not ALL of the 40 have to have them either. So that's a rare situation where half and half wouldn't be bad because the ones in front are going to die eventually anyways. So just treat them as ablative wounds and mark the ones with grenades clearly or it could get annoying midgame. Lol.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/02 21:04:50
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Jancoran wrote: Krak grenades ARE good and you can get a lot of them in that 40 man group. Again... Not ALL of the 40 have to have them either. So that's a rare situation where half and half wouldn't be bad because the ones in front are going to die eventually anyways. So just treat them as ablative wounds and mark the ones with grenades clearly or it could get annoying midgame. Lol.
One of the few reasons I enjoyed using the DKoK siege brigade regardless of their awful point costs and weapon choices was that I could run 10+ squads all with krak grenades, a flamer and no worry of breaking to enemy fire. Ive replicated the same thing with mass MSU infantry squads with krak and have had some success, especially since my opponents enjoy running mech units, and I noticed that my poor russes had an awful habit of dying to marine krak grenades.
17,000 points (Valhallan)
10,000 points
6,000 points (Order of Our Martyred Lady)
Proud Countess of House Terryn hosting 7 Knights, 2 Dominus Knights, and 8 Armigers
Stormcast Eternals: 7,000 points
"Remember, Orks are weak and cowardly, they are easily beat in close combat and their tusks, while menacing, can easily be pulled out with a sharp tug"
Yes. It was a big deal when Sisters of Battle gained Grenades. A BIG deal. I was pleased as punch. Adds s much to their threat profile. So i hear you on it. Really do.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
I just feel that with how easily guardsmen die having a 40man blob with 4 lascannons, 4 power axes, 4 melta bombs and a priest/lvl2psyker just seems like too many eggs in one basket.
I agree Tankboy. I'd rather have Veterans in transports of some kind, even Valkyries. Two Veteran Squads kitted out modestly (3x flamers) with three specials, and Krak Grenades + a bare bones Vendetta is just over 200 points or so, so a pair of them is only 400 points and some change. The game seems to reward having multiple units on the board to divide the opponents fire up, having one massive squad to just absorb fire seems counter-intuitive to me.
Bear in mind, I know the blob can and does work for some, but I can't see it doing anything against any kind of competitive opponent running an optimized post-new necron codex.
Just my opinion on that. Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
You don't know me son, so I'll explain this to you once: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed.
I see 0 value in bringing lascannons to the blob. The blob has to move to get to assault, so why either A) stretch your blob out so the lascannons can remain stationary, costing your axe/meltabombs/characters ablative wounds, or B) spend an extra 80 points for 4 snapshots? There is no order (in the codex) that allows for a unit to move and shoot full BS/relentless, etc., so unless you bring a Lord Commissar or something AND get the relentless special rule, why not just put your heavy weapons somewhere else? And in case the blob is targetted by S6 or higher, losing a lascannon gives your enemy 2 birds for 1 stone. I'd much rather save the HWT for mech units that camp an objective turn 2 and onwards, or even just go for the more expensive HWS so I can at least fire full BS. I mean, BS 3 is fairly poor, but snapshots? No way.
Edit: But please, if I'm missing something here, I'd be happy to hear the advantages that I've overlooked.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/03 06:13:59
tankboy145 wrote: I just feel that with how easily guardsmen die having a 40man blob with 4 lascannons, 4 power axes, 4 melta bombs and a priest/lvl2psyker just seems like too many eggs in one basket.
It is a lot of eggs. Too many? Nope. Hey if a Militarum Tempestus army with a blob squad attached can beat the dread Eldar with all the tricks, then yu have something. That blob squad COULD AFFORD the damage dealt to it which is part of why its good. It allowed my army to do its thing when it otherwise would have been decimated. I had enough units left to take all five objectives from the Jetbike wielding Eldar? Is that not a success? Heck yeah it is!
Here is a recommendation though. Try it. I'll admit this much: it takes 3-4 games to really think through how to use it. The trouble I ran into (personally) when I first tried it was that I simply didn't THINK to do certain things that it can do. Like the Run and shoot order is a good example of an ability that plays bigger than it sounds. Battle Focus happy Eldar alredy know very well to use that but the IG mentality isnt exactly one of extreme mobility and certainly less so with a blob! It also took me a little time to settle on the powers I wanted and how to maximize my choices. I had to slow down while rolling those and think "okay did I get all the Divination ones I NEED because I can go to sanctic or whatever once I do".
The blob also tempts you not to shoot but to instead charge everything but fearless units that can take at last one full round of it are happy to absorb you for three phases. Sometimes its better to kill a target when you can and let the Wraithstar hit you inevitably. Sure it hurts a little more but ultimately... Re-rollable 4+ invul saves make that trade off okay. Dont give into your urge to charge something jut because its right in front of you given the insane survivability of the blob. It isnt always the right move.
Anywho, you have to try it a few times to get used to it. I did.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KommissarKiln wrote: I see 0 value in bringing lascannons to the blob. The blob has to move to get to assault, so why either A) stretch your blob out so the lascannons can remain stationary, costing your axe/meltabombs/characters ablative wounds, or B) spend an extra 80 points for 4 snapshots? There is no order (in the codex) that allows for a unit to move and shoot full BS/relentless, etc., so unless you bring a Lord Commissar or something AND get the relentless special rule, why not just put your heavy weapons somewhere else? And in case the blob is targetted by S6 or higher, losing a lascannon gives your enemy 2 birds for 1 stone. I'd much rather save the HWT for mech units that camp an objective turn 2 and onwards, or even just go for the more expensive HWS so I can at least fire full BS. I mean, BS 3 is fairly poor, but snapshots? No way.
Edit: But please, if I'm missing something here, I'd be happy to hear the advantages that I've overlooked.
The thing you're mising is: no one wants to assault it. So you may be moving for two or three rounds before getting into melee. And so those Lascannons do WORK in the meantime. Like I say: charging isnt alwys the right move. Also: no one can take out the Lascannons if they are in a blob. Sure they can try. sure they maaaaay succeed on occassion. Its not very likely until a LOT of guard have died. in the meantime: they helped kill a WraithKnight. is this not the sort of thing that registers as significant to you?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Red__Thirst wrote: I agree Tankboy. I'd rather have Veterans in transports of some kind, even Valkyries. Two Veteran Squads kitted out modestly (3x flamers) with three specials, and Krak Grenades + a bare bones Vendetta is just over 200 points or so, so a pair of them is only 400 points and some change. The game seems to reward having multiple units on the board to divide the opponents fire up, having one massive squad to just absorb fire seems counter-intuitive to me.
Bear in mind, I know the blob can and does work for some, but I can't see it doing anything against any kind of competitive opponent running an optimized post-new necron codex.
Just my opinion on that. Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Yet...it did. I just wrote the batrep for my last eldar encounter up. Thats a competitive army it faced. So...
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/02/03 06:23:30
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
KommissarKiln wrote: I see 0 value in bringing lascannons to the blob. The blob has to move to get to assault, so why either A) stretch your blob out so the lascannons can remain stationary, costing your axe/meltabombs/characters ablative wounds, or B) spend an extra 80 points for 4 snapshots? There is no order (in the codex) that allows for a unit to move and shoot full BS/relentless, etc., so unless you bring a Lord Commissar or something AND get the relentless special rule, why not just put your heavy weapons somewhere else? And in case the blob is targetted by S6 or higher, losing a lascannon gives your enemy 2 birds for 1 stone. I'd much rather save the HWT for mech units that camp an objective turn 2 and onwards, or even just go for the more expensive HWS so I can at least fire full BS. I mean, BS 3 is fairly poor, but snapshots? No way.
Edit: But please, if I'm missing something here, I'd be happy to hear the advantages that I've overlooked.
The reason I do is because I've fought plenty jinking skimmers(eldar and crons) and monstrous creatures. The ignores cover order is huge especially when used with 4 twinlinked lascannons. Yes you can get a vendetta with 3 twinlinked lascannons but it doesn't ignore cover. Plenty of times my opponents will drive transports right up at me loaded with units that shoot enough to really hurt the blob or assault the blob and those transports usually hug cover. Ignores cover twinlinked lascannons usually help with that. Dark eldar was one of my toughest opponents for a long time until the ignores cover lascannons came about.
With how much cover and how easy cover is to achieve having some long ranged ignores cover is important. Running up the board with the blob generally means that the opponent is going to tear you apart as you advance. Guardsmen are rather slow and I would agree that power axe/melta bomb combo could work. I just find it hard to justify the unit.
The orders to get monster/tank hunter also seem very important for the high toughness units and for when you need to make sure you destroy a vehicle.
Guard really struggles with long range anti tank and seems to also struggle with really being able to do damage. My problem I notice with chimera vets is you need to get close to do any sort of damage. Usually when you get close is when the enemy can easily get side armor and tear the chimera apart with small arms fire which once the squishy guys are out they are pretty much guaranteed dead. I've almost decided to just run tauroxs instead to save points.
Conclave + blob is bonkers. Champions of Fenris + blob can also do work.
Invisibility, 4+ invuln saves from divination, FNP from biomancy, shrouded from telepathy, sanctuary etc. can all make for a hardy group of dudes, especially when you have to chew through 36 of them to get at the ones who are capable of doing damage. In progressive scoring missions, this baby practically guarantees the opposition will not get points from centrally accessible locations. Fair, it's slow, but if you put the libbies on bikes or include space wolf characters, you have a pretty decent ability to get the significant models where you need them to be, or break them off to chase small units/objectives. Canny players can use this against you and charge from a flank and pull the blob away from the center of the table, but you have deployment options in that case.
If you are worried about speed and independent targeting ability, you can include obsec scions from the MT codex or pod-vets to DS in on objectives later on in the game. You can also buy the blob chimeras/tauroxes to run around independently.
I agree though, the challenges are significant when using a blob. It slowly grinds things down and if you don't plan it well, it can easily get pulled out of position and isolated, allowing your enemy access to the more important components of your army.
I agree, Blob Guard can be quite effective especially with someone who knows how to play it, a friend of mine runs a very Infantry heavy IG army and has wrecked face in almost every game he has played in. Personally I have had alot of success utilizing an "Air Cavalry" approach with my Elysian Drop Troops and it has allowed me to keep pace with the new Power Dexes such as Space Marines, Eldar, Tau and Necrons. The Elysians have a Special Rule called "Combat Drop" which basically allows me to Drop Pod Assault with Valkyries, Sky Talons, Drop Sentinels and Sentry Turrets meaning I can do a null deployment and make my opponent waste a turn. Also having access to Officers of the Fleet and Ground Scanners I can effectively boost my Reserve Rolls and Nerfy my opponents, which is really effective especially against Tau Suit Deep Strikers. Unless my opponent has a ton of Sky Rays it will be a hard day for him trying to shoot x8 Flyers out of the sky.
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
Red__Thirst wrote: I agree Tankboy. I'd rather have Veterans in transports of some kind, even Valkyries. Two Veteran Squads kitted out modestly (3x flamers) with three specials, and Krak Grenades + a bare bones Vendetta is just over 200 points or so, so a pair of them is only 400 points and some change. The game seems to reward having multiple units on the board to divide the opponents fire up, having one massive squad to just absorb fire seems counter-intuitive to me.
-Red__Thirst-
The blob is just not good in the current meta yet people keep playing it and trying to make it work. I would much rather spam flyers... 6 obsec of these plus enough points left over to add allies or psyker support.
I play:
40K: Daemons, Tau
AoS: Blades of Khorne, Disciples of Tzeentch
Warmachine: Convergence of Cyriss
Infinity: Haqqislam, Tohaa
Malifaux: Bayou
Star Wars Legion: Republic & Separatists
MESBG: Far Harad, Misty Mountains
), because free prizes is nice. 400 points when 1 troops is all you need works, 500 points would be pretty awesome, since those troops can get a Chimera and some special weapons, or give the tank 
17,000 points (Valhallan)
10,000 points
6,000 points (Order of Our Martyred Lady)
Proud Countess of House Terryn hosting 7 Knights, 2 Dominus Knights, and 8 Armigers
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.