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Here's another thought-- If you already have an HQ for a CAD, can you just take an extra CCS or two as their own formations for the free 24" extra-command bubble? Because I'd much rather them sit behind the blob in a Chimera and have a HWS of lascannons rather than bring said lascannons along and force snapshots. But with this huge orders range (and a 3rd order to boot), the CCS could easily do the shoot and run on the blob, whilst using ignores cover or Bring it Down on the lascannons who can sit back. 3 regular BS shots >> 4 *maybe* TL snapshots. It would not be very difficult to pick the Psyker that doesn't have 4+ invul as a power and stick him to the HWS if you want to babysit it with Ld 9 and Prescience. They'd need to deploy in ruins or behind an ADL or something to be at all survivable, but when you're throwing a power blob, Pasknisher, melta vets, etc. downrange, those 3 S9 shots with decent cover will likely attract a lot less attention.

Also, if you do stick lascannons behind an ADL and bring the formation CCS, you can just GtG and use Get Back in the Fight for basically free 2+ cover. At this point, the psyker wouldn't be worth it if he's GtG during the psychic phase, but a cheap commissar would be much cheaper Ld 9 for the unit for orders.

 D6Damager wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:
I agree Tankboy. I'd rather have Veterans in transports of some kind, even Valkyries. Two Veteran Squads kitted out modestly (3x flamers) with three specials, and Krak Grenades + a bare bones Vendetta is just over 200 points or so, so a pair of them is only 400 points and some change. The game seems to reward having multiple units on the board to divide the opponents fire up, having one massive squad to just absorb fire seems counter-intuitive to me.

-Red__Thirst-

The blob is just not good in the current meta

...All evience to the contrary?...

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Here's another thought-- If you already have an HQ for a CAD, can you just take an extra CCS or two as their own formations for the free 24" extra-command bubble? Because I'd much rather them sit behind the blob in a Chimera and have a HWS of lascannons rather than bring said lascannons along and force snapshots. But with this huge orders range (and a 3rd order to boot), the CCS could easily do the shoot and run on the blob, whilst using ignores cover or Bring it Down on the lascannons who can sit back. 3 regular BS shots >> 4 *maybe* TL snapshots. It would not be very difficult to pick the Psyker that doesn't have 4+ invul as a power and stick him to the HWS if you want to babysit it with Ld 9 and Prescience. They'd need to deploy in ruins or behind an ADL or something to be at all survivable, but when you're throwing a power blob, Pasknisher, melta vets, etc. downrange, those 3 S9 shots with decent cover will likely attract a lot less attention.

Also, if you do stick lascannons behind an ADL and bring the formation CCS, you can just GtG and use Get Back in the Fight for basically free 2+ cover. At this point, the psyker wouldn't be worth it if he's GtG during the psychic phase, but a cheap commissar would be much cheaper Ld 9 for the unit for orders.

That doesn't work because under the high command that ccs can only issue order to units from that detachment, so only that cadian battle group. You wouldn't be able to issue orders from that ccs to say and infantry unit from a separate combined arms detachment.

Tips I know that work well

Wyverns, Sweet Mother Hubbard Wyverns....

MoO aren't bad, esp with LoS and/or Servo skulls if you ally with the =][=.

The classic combo of vets in cover with camo cloaks and vox caster, going to ground, so they get a 2+ cover save, then order get back in the fight next turn.

A full squad of 10 ratlings can make a good distraction or threat bubble, really tie up your enemy's resources.

A favorite is the bring a Skyshield landing pad, and start turn 1 with a Vendetta on it, some nice 3x TL lascannon love on turn one, yes please.

Okay, so I've taken the CCS formation vs CAD thing into note, but even as CAD, a 12" bubble around a Chimera should be enough to order around an advancing blob and a HWS until the blob reaches combat, at which point it *probably* doesn't need orders anymore if it's just going to go from assault to assault on a good day. On a bad day, it either gets swept so it's not even a candidate for orders, or it breaks in combat (WHERE are your priests?) and run right back towards the CCS for a good ol' Get Back in the Fight!



So I've looked at some of the things through this thread, and decided to write up a rough draft for an 1850 list based on what units and things people have tended to advocate thus far (e.g. Pasknisher, Wyverns, blob, mech vets, Eradicator), but let me warn you now I based this off of the models I have on hand, so an edited/modified version of this list will probably fare better. But I think it's a general idea of what a good Guard list would look like nowadays:



I'm fething up my math somewhere on the little "cumulative points" bits, but this should add up to 1850 on the dot (EDIT: fixed). Tear it apart as you see fit. We're gonna try to find the best Guard list for eachdifferent flavor. This one seems to be mixed units, with some emphasis on the blob and tank HQ.

Regarding your list, let me say it's a solid start.

Let me make the following suggestions:

Ditch the Commissar and Heavy Weapon Squad. That is just asking your opponent to take first blood, as it isn't hard to delete 3x (or 4x w/ the Commissar) T:3 models with a 5+ armor save off the table. I know they have 2 wounds per heavy weapon base but there is a lot of ST:6 or higher shooting out there.

Use those freed up points to do the following: Add Heavy Bolter sponsons to your Eradicator, Also put Heavy Bolters on Pask too (More shots at better range).

Add carapace to the rest of you CCS (More survivable) and upgrade the veterans Taurox to a Chimera (Models allowing)

If you have enough points left over after that, grab a third wyvern and consider putting them all in a squadron so you can make it harder to lose first blood to a lucky pen roll on a lone tank. (Open topped tanks can have this happen even with a non AP:1/AP:2 hits, and it's even more likely if it does happen to be an AP:1 or AP:2 hit.)

That's just my thoughts on that. Take it easy for now and best of luck.

-Red__Thirst-

I think conscripts deserve more attention. For 115pts you can have a 30 model conscript unit plus a priest. They're going to win assaults vs more or less anything their points value and tie up anything they can't hurt forever. 3pts per model is just too good to pass up!

I'd not take a blob without the added conscripts if you have the models.

 DoomMouse wrote:
I think conscripts deserve more attention. For 115pts you can have a 30 model conscript unit plus a priest.

I agree, these guys can do work. That said, with no access to krak grenades or melta bombs, they are very vulnerable to a dreadnaught/other big scary thing. Additionally, most deathstars/strong combat units such as black knights or vanilla biker command squads will come with both hit and run as well as relentless. It's cheap and cheerful and can make things happen, but it's not the pit of despair that it once was.

Another thing I'd like to bring up: marker lights can boost snap shots, so the invisible guard blob is less scary than it once may have been. I am in the process of rethinking things.

In light of the aforementioned weakness of invisibility, I feel like we need to go MSU to minimize the insanity of tau mega unit fire while holding on to enough durability to survive scatbikes. This also limits the power of D-shot wraith lords since there's no one model that you really care about all that much. If I were to try something, I'd go:

6-10 Vet Squads with las cannon and forward sentries
2-4 Cadian Command Squads with voxes, banners, and plasma or melta guns in chimeras
FW Artillery gun or Artillery formation
A forward element in the form of obsec tanks, DSing scions, Psykana division for demon-spam, podding vets, space marine bikes, DKoK death riders (obsec ofc), or allied knights.

Strongest allies would probably be bikers, either ravenwing or WS, with a tech marine to reinforce and aegis line, giving the vets a 2+ cover save flat.

I know we're focused on mono-guard, but I really think that allies or FW do wonders for the army to a point where "competitive" necessitates the inclusion of other elements. If you want to say "what's the best I can do with mono-guard" that's a totally different conversation IMO.

I agree, these guys can do work. That said, with no access to krak grenades or melta bombs, they are very vulnerable to a dreadnaught/other big scary thing. Additionally, most deathstars/strong combat units such as black knights or vanilla biker command squads will come with both hit and run as well as relentless. It's cheap and cheerful and can make things happen, but it's not the pit of despair that it once was.

I agree this is true with hit and run, but they can still be pretty annoying! to be honest if they engage a dreadnought then they'll hold it up all game so they still earn their points back.

One thing I've found is that it can be helpful to allow the priest to die and the unit to run occasionally. I had a turn once when just the priest survived and prevented my entire army firing into my opponent's deathstar...

Strongest allies would probably be bikers, either ravenwing or WS

Couldn't agree with this more - I'm currently adding outflanking ravenwing allies to my guard infantry core. They have plenty of grav and melta to punish the units that the blobs can't engage effectively - particularly artillery, wraithknights and riptides (though EWO doesn't help)

They're pretty survivable with the jink re-rolls and add the much needed speed that a blob army lacks.

Things can't hit and run effectively when you completely surround them.

I was wondering where to put this, but thought I'd throw it out here...What do you all prefer to throw onto your chimeras' loadouts? Myself, I adore them as mini anti-inf bunkers, giving all of them HB and a Heavy Stubber, with a dozer blade also (I don't see many marine armies, and they'd have still gotten an AS with the ML), but wondering if anyone actually has different versions, odd choices, personal flavours and such too that could be considered useful?

I prefer the Multilasers higher STR. The AP matters against a few things but i'd rather have the STR which opens up its efficacy to more things.

For the Hull mounted weapon I tend to like the Heavy Bolter. it confuses the use of the vehicle less. It's an all out ranged machine of war, not a tweener (for me).

The guns on top along with the big guns really do get a fair number of shots generating. Its possible to throw 18 shots off of a Chimera, plus the Fire points. That's pretty nice.

I had a little luck with Azrael choosing the +3 charge and run warlord trait with an inquisitor with the scout book backed up by a priest. pretty good chance of getting a turn 2 charge

With run run run order it should be roughly 20" of movement pre turn 2.

The first couple of pages of this thread were quite interesting, thank you.

On the subject of blobs, I'll just say that you need not look any further than IAXIII or Vraks. Only drawback is you are effectively Chaos, so your allies options suck.

koooaei wrote:Ok, things that do work.

- Large blob of guards with power axe and melta bomb sarges supported with an inquisitor, priest, psy support sometimes and VSG.
- Conscripts with priests or comissars. Best tarpit ever. Unless you get the priest sniped out.
- Artillery formation. s9 ap2 ignore cover, re-rolling scatters.
- Psycher formation. Best daemon factory in the game. Works extremely well with VSG also.
- Decurion comsquad special weapons + allied pods spam. Ignore cover/tl special weapons. Suicide comsquads. They are strong in taking out whatever needed. Very unfluffy, however. And requires allied pods.

The first is incredibly point intensive for a slow-crawling unit in a Maelstrom world.

Artillery formation is cool, or you can also take artillery gun carriages from IA, attach a commissar, and issue standard orders without need for a formation. Or do both to just end the world with templates.

The psykers don't get daemonology unless I am mistaken, so I assume you mean bring daemon allies who will use their warp charges to summon daemons? I think I would lean towards a landing pad to protect them, bonus points if you model it like a sacrificial circle.

koooaei wrote:140 pts give you 9 hb shots and s6 ap4 ignore cover large blast. There's a number of competitive units that have cover or invuls on par or even better that their armor. And against those units, a s6 ap4 ignore cover blast is not much worse or even better than s10 ap2 blast but than you have hb to back you up.
This tank can force saves quite effectively, is relatively well priced for what you get and has it's niche. What's not to like?

If I'm going to be just forcing saves, I really like the Punisher, especially when BS4 tank commanders and preferred enemy buffs are so widely available.

@HandofMars- it's not just about forcing saves it's also about having the ignores cover. Guard has so little in the codex.

Not just that but the eradictor also has that extra range that doesn't allow the enemy to get too close.