So obviously it happens.
Sisters are still human, and the lure of another pious warrior can sometimes prove to be too much. Whether it be simply to sate urges, or if it actually results in Kinship, the reasoning is the same.
My questions are:
1. How is this typically viewed within an order? Is it heresy or simply looked down upon.
2. How often does this happen?
You're the one who started this path, you don't really get to pull the 'we need to be mature' card because, let's just be honest with each other, you know you aren't.
curran12 wrote: You're the one who started this path, you don't really get to pull the 'we need to be mature' card because, let's just be honest with each other, you know you aren't.
Yes I do due to the phrasing of my question. It's not exactly "lol naughty nuns".
And hopefully you know there's more to a non platonic relationship than sex.
Just saying.....
curran12 wrote: Then why not call it what it is? You also brought up the whole chastity thing.
Just saying....
Because to me that has a deeper meaning in that they're allowed to form actual relationships.
Reading between the lines isn't hard...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Christ this is a hilariously self fulfilling prophecy we have going on.
"This is going to be a gak fest, so let's just start whipping it at each other"
Sisters of Battle are described as nuns. This means they are forced into celibacy by definition. Their monastic lifestyle doesn't allow for the creation of family units, even not homosexual ones. Despite this, it's true that they might be authorised to have carnal relationship since one can have sex without being married.
Unfortunately, after reading their novels and fluff, Sisters of Battle are clearly a martial and penitent monastic sect. This means their entire life is based on fighting (or training to) and depriving themselves of everything else down to self estime. In such an environment, sexual intercourse or love would be considered a dangerous distraction or sign of pride and vanity, two things anathema to their philosophy. Penence would be mandatory if such a thing was to happen and if it might not lead to them being forced to become Repentia, they would certainly suffer tremedously to atone for such a «weakness».
Furthermore, in an environment so punishing for the body and mind, sexual desire is kept extremely low. Since Sisters devote so much of their energy to the veneration of the God-Emperor through combat, during the very little time they have to themselves they are probably far to exhausted to do anything else then rest of keep on praying, playing some benign strategy game or meditating softly. Its not like they know about much other form of distraction.
Finaly, Sisters of Battle were almost recruited at birth by first passing through the Schola Progenium than through the Covent Prioris at teenagerhood. Because of this, a Sister knows pretty much nothing but warfare and her monastic lifestyle. One can even doubt that they know what it feels to love or be loved. They probably know all human muscle groups and that of several major xenos species to better kill them, hurt them or provide first aid, but they might be completly ignorant of how to make children since this is useless knowledge to them. Thus, sex and relationship are just as alien as machine repair. They don't even have model of relationship since their memory of their parents were erased.
Sisters of Battle are mighty soldiers, surpassed only by Space Marine and even then not by that much. To the rest of the Imperium they are legendary saintly heroines and ruthless and fearsome executioners, but beneith all this they are truly sad being. They are some of the worst victims of an inhuman indoctrination machine who made them barely more human than a Skitarii.
epronovost wrote: Sisters of Battle are described as nuns. This means they are forced into celibacy by definition. Their monastic lifestyle doesn't allow for the creation of family units, even not homosexual ones. Despite this, it's true that they might be authorised to have carnal relationship since one can have sex without being married.
Unfortunately, after reading their novels and fluff, Sisters of Battle are clearly a martial and penitent monastic sect. This means their entire life is based on fighting (or training to) and depriving themselves of everything else down to self estime. In such an environment, sexual intercourse or love would be considered a dangerous distraction or sign of pride and vanity, two things anathema to their philosophy.
Furthermore, in an environment so punishing for the body and mind, sexual desire is kept extremely low. Since Sisters devote so much of their energy to the veneration of the God-Emperor through combat, during the very little time they have to themselves they are probably far to exhausted to do anything else then rest of keep on praying or meditating softly.
Finaly, Sisters of Battle were almost recruited at birth by first passing through the Schola Progenium than through the Covent Prioris at teenagerhood. Because of this, a Sister knows pretty much nothing but warfare and her monastic lifestyle. One can even doubt that they know what it feels to love or be loved. They probably know all human muscle groups and that of several major xenos species to better kill them, hurt them or provide first aid, but they might be completly ignorant of how to make children since this is useless knowledge to them.
Sisters of Battle are mighty soldiers, surpassed only by Space Marine and even then not by that much. To the rest of the Imperium they are legendary saintly heroines and ruthless and fearsome executioners, but beneith all this they are truly sad being. They are some of the worst victims of an inhuman indoctrination machine who made them barely more human than a Skitarii.
Does that help you a bit?
I think I've read a 40k novel where one of the sisters was involved with someone in a relationship (one of the Ciahphas Cain novels I think). So it's entirely possible, just unlikely
Ciaphas Cain novels are written with a tongue in cheek style. They are a semi-parody of the 40K universe or its actual reality if you take other sources as propaganda (your choice). Modern Sisters of Battle are a sad lot on the personnal level.
epronovost wrote: Sisters of Battle are described as nuns. This means they are forced into celibacy by definition. Their monastic lifestyle doesn't allow for the creation of family units, even not homosexual ones. Despite this, it's true that they might be authorised to have carnal relationship since one can have sex without being married.
Unfortunately, after reading their novels and fluff, Sisters of Battle are clearly a martial and penitent monastic sect. This means their entire life is based on fighting (or training to) and depriving themselves of everything else down to self estime. In such an environment, sexual intercourse or love would be considered a dangerous distraction or sign of pride and vanity, two things anathema to their philosophy.
Furthermore, in an environment so punishing for the body and mind, sexual desire is kept extremely low. Since Sisters devote so much of their energy to the veneration of the God-Emperor through combat, during the very little time they have to themselves they are probably far to exhausted to do anything else then rest of keep on praying or meditating softly.
Finaly, Sisters of Battle were almost recruited at birth by first passing through the Schola Progenium than through the Covent Prioris at teenagerhood. Because of this, a Sister knows pretty much nothing but warfare and her monastic lifestyle. One can even doubt that they know what it feels to love or be loved. They probably know all human muscle groups and that of several major xenos species to better kill them, hurt them or provide first aid, but they might be completly ignorant of how to make children since this is useless knowledge to them.
Sisters of Battle are mighty soldiers, surpassed only by Space Marine and even then not by that much. To the rest of the Imperium they are legendary saintly heroines and ruthless and fearsome executioners, but beneith all this they are truly sad being. They are some of the worst victims of an inhuman indoctrination machine who made them barely more human than a Skitarii.
Does that help you a bit?
I appreciate the serious reply, but the whole reason I made this thread was because I thought the same thing, until I heard that Battle Sisters weren't actually required to take a vow of celibacy.
Well that and Sisters simply aren't Astartes.
The training regime an astartes undertake is meant to destroy the Soul as well as the Body, and rebuild them into nigh immortal inhumans. They are castrated mentally if not physically.
I mean christ Thaddeus is like 90 and he's just now a battle brother. And he's very young for one too. Of course they're uninterested.
But Sisters? Sisters are regular people by comparison. They're not slabs of meat and steel with guns. They need love like all people.
If you read Sister codexes, their two novels, their audio drama and Daemonifuge and add the new information of the Militarum Tempestus codex about the Schola Progenium, you will realise that your average Space Marine might actually have a easier training and life (not by much, but if I had to pick one, I would take the Astartes one). The training of Sister destroy the soul and mind and forge their body to the peak of human condition. Before being Scout, a Space Marine recruit was a «normal» teenager considering the world he was living on. Before being a Novice, a Sister of Battle recruit was a brainwashed expertly trained, mindwiped killer from a Scholam.
Sisters have demonstrated stronger resistence to the lure of Chaos and its debilitating effect because of this. Only the Grey Knight can surpass them on that point and even then not by much. A Sister of Battle is a inhuman brainwashed monster trained to kill by sadists and elite soldiers since the age of 6. Their memory are wiped. Sisters don't take vows of chasity because they don't chose to become Sisters they are selected. Much like Space Marine don't make vows of celibacy or vows of alligence to their Chapter. Its expected from them due to structural reasons. A Sister only need faith and nothing more. In fact a «healthy» Sister ONLY want faith in the God Emperor and nothing more.
I've written a short story where by the end of story a sister is "smitten" with a Space Wolf marine due to the way he treats her as an equal in combat instead of below himself. She doesn't understand these feelings as she doesn't understand the natural attraction of men and women. Not to worry as the sister superior figures a few days of renewal indoctrination will resolve the matter.
But yeah. Sisters are literally warrior nuns with guns and that is all they are. They are not women, mothers, daughters, aunts, homemakers, caregivers, or any of the other "soft" accolades that we usually attribute to females. However, as they are not biologically altered they still have those internal hormonal urges that while mentally and psychologically surpressed, they still could pop up given the right stimulus.
Today, Johnny Astartes looked at me while Saint Cel and I were cooking a tuna noodle casserole in Home Ec. class. I just giggled and hid my eyes behind my bangs. Saint Cel said that if the Cannoness catches me passing notes or holding hands with a boy, I'll be in detention with the rest of the Repentia, but I just can't help myself. Johnny Astartes is so dreamy!
Sisters do have familly, though. In one of the novels, a Sister from one of the medica orders is allowed attend the service of her blood relative sister, who was a Battle Sister that fell in the line of duty. There are other examples in the fiction on how Sisters are just as human as anyone else in 40k, although a bit more focused and dedicated than most.
Today, Johnny Astartes looked at me while Saint Cel and I were cooking a tuna noodle casserole in Home Ec. class. I just giggled and hid my eyes behind my bangs. Saint Cel said that if the Cannoness catches me passing notes or holding hands with a boy, I'll be in detention with the rest of the Repentia, but I just can't help myself. Johnny Astartes is so dreamy!
More like:
Dear Diary,
Today, Johnny Astartes looked like he might have done something heretical. So I burnt that motherfrakker to a crisp with my flamer in the name of the almighty God-Emperor.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Sisters do have familly, though. In one of the novels, a Sister from one of the medica orders is allowed attend the service of her blood relative sister, who was a Battle Sister that fell in the line of duty. There are other examples in the fiction on how Sisters are just as human as anyone else in 40k, although a bit more focused and dedicated than most.
SJ
That's kinda different than what the OP is going for though. From what I understand, Nuns and Priests are allowed to keep a very limited amount of Contact with their Blood family, because their Community becomes their new family. From what I looked up, sometimes Nuns and priests are allowed like 4 days a year to visit with family after being with the order for a period of time and are allowed somewhat regular letters.
BUT Sisters of Battle are supposed to be the Super awesome, only second to the Warrior Monks of the Astartes, warriors of the Imperium. So much like everything else in 40k, that's probably ramped up to 11 and they are probably barred from seeing family, maybe allowed the odd letter every few years, and maybe if they're lucky when they die in glorious battle with the Enemies of Man, family is allowed to go to the service, assuming they are determined to be free of the taint of Heresy.
But I highly doubt Sisters actually have romantic relationships. Even though they might not take the same Vows as Nuns IRL, it's pretty obvious that's what GW was going for. An Elite force of Nuns armed to the teeth for the sole purpose of Purging Heretics with Holy Promethium
Today, Johnny Astartes looked at me while Saint Cel and I were cooking a tuna noodle casserole in Home Ec. class. I just giggled and hid my eyes behind my bangs. Saint Cel said that if the Cannoness catches me passing notes or holding hands with a boy, I'll be in detention with the rest of the Repentia, but I just can't help myself. Johnny Astartes is so dreamy!
Dear Sister,
Believe me every teenager goes through what you are. It is just your hormones playing up. It is okay to have these feelings even though you know you are attracted to boys they will soon disappear when you are older or you may realize that you are bisexual. Either way it is perfectly normal and nothing to worry about. Its all part of becoming a woman.
Just listen to your body and wait until you are fully developed both physically and emotionally before rushing into anything.
All the best, Auntie Agony.
One thing to note is that the Adepta Sororitas are made up of more then just battle nuns. For the militant orders it is like as said above, heavy indoctrination and constant fighting keep any real relationships from forming, but for the others including: Orders Hospitaller - basically doctors
Orders Famulous - teachers to the nobility
Orders Dialogous - translators
For these it seems more likely that they could have relationships if they did not take a vow of chastity or if their orders don't forbid it.
I would quite like a source - other than Cain, which itself states to be an unreliable source based entirely on the ramblings of an old man thinking back to his youth as a perverted boy - on Sisters not having to take Oaths of Chastity.
Quite apart from that, epronovost's writing is entirely supported by the rest of the fluff. The blood sisters in Faith and Fire know that they are blood sisters, but haven't actually communicated since they were split into separate Orders.
Garland - the non-militant orders live just as controlled lives as the militant orders, and their roles are a little more involved than that.
The Hospitallers are expert medics, but they're also charity workers and interrogators, and are more than competent at the arts of war themselves.
The Famulous not only teach the children of the nobility, they keep their records, make sure they marry the correct people, check for genetic degradation and heresy, and act as the voice behind the thrones. In no book featuring a Sister Famulous has a noble fallen to Chaos, because the Famulous actively prevent it from happening.
The Dialogous aren't just translators - they're experts on daemonology, alien lore, heretical knowledge and so on. They are the guardians of the libraries as well, and work intimately with the Inquisition.
The Pronatus and Sabine show similar dedication, although if any Sister were to indulge in sex, it would be a Sabine - but if a Sabine did the nasty, it would be as part of a Honey Trap operation to gain control of a local population as is their remit as part of the Missionaria.
Furyou Miko wrote: I would quite like a source - other than Cain, which itself states to be an unreliable source based entirely on the ramblings of an old man thinking back to his youth as a perverted boy - on Sisters not having to take Oaths of Chastity.
Quite apart from that, epronovost's writing is entirely supported by the rest of the fluff. The blood sisters in Faith and Fire know that they are blood sisters, but haven't actually communicated since they were split into separate Orders.
Garland - the non-militant orders live just as controlled lives as the militant orders, and their roles are a little more involved than that.
The Hospitallers are expert medics, but they're also charity workers and interrogators, and are more than competent at the arts of war themselves.
The Famulous not only teach the children of the nobility, they keep their records, make sure they marry the correct people, check for genetic degradation and heresy, and act as the voice behind the thrones. In no book featuring a Sister Famulous has a noble fallen to Chaos, because the Famulous actively prevent it from happening.
The Dialogous aren't just translators - they're experts on daemonology, alien lore, heretical knowledge and so on. They are the guardians of the libraries as well, and work intimately with the Inquisition.
The Pronatus and Sabine show similar dedication, although if any Sister were to indulge in sex, it would be a Sabine - but if a Sabine did the nasty, it would be as part of a Honey Trap operation to gain control of a local population as is their remit as part of the Missionaria.
Actually its Inquisitor Amberley Vail, not Cain who states that
"contary to popular belief, the Adepta Sororitas doesn't actually require its members to remain celibate, although few find the time to take advantage of the fact"
I go with that the vast majority of Sisters would in fact not even consider such a thing, but its not imposible to happen...............just very very unusual. There might be some speculation about the Sisters but tbhGW have very rarely showed this with the Sororitas often having a much better reputation and sense of awe about them than some Astartes.
Even Cain - who really does not like them - often cites the impact their presence has on other Imperials - they are often just in awe, from civlians to hard bitten veterans. Just read (IMO) the excellent first Yarick novel and again the Sisterhood are seen as a manifestations of the Emperors will and not really human. Consequently I think the speculation that always took place about catholic and other nuns is much less likely as the Sororitas is far more powerful in its own right than any of those historic organisations.
Nuns and convents in history often had rich and pwoerful women retiring to them and still enjoying the finer things in life, drink, sex, luxuries etc - again that's not going to happen here as Imperial noblewomen don't have this option due to the recruitment policy of the Sororitas, It might be that a really devout woman might be allowed to enter a Sororitas convent but liekly only as a support - although I seem to remmber that one of the Shira Calpurnia novels touches on this?
epronovost wrote: Sisters of Battle are clearly a martial and penitent monastic sect. This means their entire life is based on fighting (or training to) and depriving themselves of everything else down to self esteem.
This.
And to be honest I have always taken that they have the same celibacy rules as your typical religious order (discounting the dubious Captain Flashman want to be source).
On the plus side for those with a bent towards the thought of sexy warrior nuns getting it on, its a big galaxy and they are only human so I am sure that some unorthodox goings on occur although I am sure they are viewed in the same way that they are viewed in any current day religious sect.
Some Brides of the Emperor (the former name of the Sisters of Battle) did serviced Vandire sexualy, but this is more in line with downright sexual abuse and rape than a non-platonic relationship.
Some Brides of the Emperor (the former name of the Sisters of Battle) did serviced Vandire sexualy, but this is more in line with downright sexual abuse and rape than a non-platonic relationship.
Really? I haven't come across any fluff suggesting anything sexual with Vandire. Where'd you get that from?
The second edition codex stated that they served him as entertainers, although it listed dancing and singing explicitly - however, he named them the "Brides of the Emperor" and he himself was playing the role of "The Emperor's Voice in the Material".. which would from a religious point of view make them his Brides too.
That's where the inference comes from, anyway. It's down to interpretation ultimately.
I do favour him as taking advantage sexually personally, because I can't help but read Alicia's denunciation with a "finally got you, you bastard" smugness.
I see. I guess the fluff in later sources could also interpreted that way but I just didn't come across anything outright suggesting that. But yea, it does make a lot of sense.
"the brides not only served as Vandire's bodyguard, but also as servants and companion. They tasted the High Lord's food, fed him when he fell weak with illness, nursed his frail body and entertained him with singing, dancing and other. more exotic skills.
It also specifcially notes that during his rule children from the Schola suffered varied fates -
the most attractive became concubines for Imperial Nobles
I think I'd agree with epronovost. Whilst there's nothing that explicitly says that Sisters of Battle don't have sexual or platonic relationships, I don't think it would really be something they'd be interested in. The closest thing to a relationship they might have is admiration for someone who is particularly heroic or pious or perhaps a strong sense of comradery for their fellow Sisters - but not a normal, human relationship.
According to Codex Witch Hunters page 10 (I think it's from around 4th ed, I can't remember exactly), the Sisters of the Orders Militant don't do much except pray and train.
When not actively prosecuting the Ecclesiarchy's wars, the sisters of the Orders Militant divide their time between prayer and training. Indeed, to the Adepta Sororitas, the two disciplines are nigh inseparable. A sister may devote many long hours knelt before the high altar of her convent, fasting and meditating upon the meaning of a single passage in the Litanies of Faith, before gaining profound insight by the conclusion of her vigil. To the Adepta Sororitas, penitence and self-mortification is a vital part of life as a devout servant of the Emperor, for only through extreme self-denial can one truly gain an inkling of the sacrifice that the master of Mankind Himself has made for His faithful subjects.
The last sentence in particular solidifies my view .
Also - note that the Sororitas in question in the Cain Novel (I want to say Cain's Last Stand?) was something of an exception to the rule:
She was a veteran who was detatched as an instructor at a schola progenum prior to the novices being sent off to a 'proper' order. So was essentially alone and cut off from her order.
Secondly, it's not her only demonstrated vice - she also gambles (admittedly scalping the other players horrendously then putting all her winnings in the ecclesiarchy alms box....)
Thirdly, whilst it may not specifically be against the rules, her 'relationship' is one she keeps very much under the counter and never admits to openly - even to other tutors at the scholam that she thinks of as friends. Which implies she knows, deep down, that it's something she really shouldn't be doing.
Given that Soroitas are wholly dedicated to training, combat and religious fervor, such a relationship is unlikely. However, in a massive galaxy the unlikely happens.
Consider that the reason Christian monks, nuns and clergy took vows of celibacy was in order to be closer to God. Clerical investiture is essentially a marriage TO God. To have a relationship with a human is to remove the divine from first place in one's loyalty and affections.
From what I've seen that's more or less the 40k model. In 40k it's a satirical parody to play up the grimdark sacrifice and zealotry of the Ecclesiarchial orders. The fact that it panders to popular anti-religious sentiment can only boost sales.
The Soroitas are, if anything, more thoroughly indoctrinated than the Astartes. The live cloistered (not monastic, that's monks-only) lives. They would take anything that distracts them from unwavering dedication to the Emperor as a very, very serious breach of faith.
Any sister who indulged even in carnal fantasies would likely self-report to their Sister Superior or Canoness. Depending on the attitude of that Superior, at the very least there would be a painful repentance, probably replete with scourging, grueling vigils and reeducation.
A sister who actually indulged in carnal relations of any sort would doubtless find themselves assigned to the Repentia, installed in a Penitent Engine, converted to a Combat Servitor or somesuch. Any of which is basically a one-way ticket to death, burning away their lack of faith through self sacrifice and combat to return their immortal soul to a pure state.
The non-combat orders may have slightly different rules. Certainly the Hospitallers, Famulous and Dialogous all have more interaction with Imperial society than the martial orders. How much contact they're allowed with blood relatives probably varies wildly from order to order and across the Imperium.
But putting any human alongside The Emperor in love or honor or fealty? Unthinkable.
Like it or not, there's not much canon information on what the Sororitas do when they're not shooting at heretics. Cain's Last Stand and Daemonifuge are the only two I can think of, although I'm sure someone with more knowledge of Black Library's back catalogue can suggest some others. Also, I don't see why the Cain novels should be taken to be less factually accurate than other 40k novels just because of the light-hearted tone. (I know, they're told as memoirs, and memories can fade, but Cain's Last Stand is chronologically the last one; it's the most likely to be accurate as it's the story he recorded closest to the actual events). I took Sister Julien's keeping her affair secret to be because it was with a co-worker, not because it was wrong in itself, but YMMV.
Most of what I'm reading from this thread is people transferring their ideas of Catholic monastic orders onto the Adepta Sororitas. Fair enough, since that's the obvious inspiration, but it's not watertight. It's a big galaxy, and the answer, as always will be "well, it depends ..." There's not many absolutes in 40k.
My statement that they don't engage in sex is based purely on the fact they're a penitent order, the fact that they're a highly skill-focussed order, and the fact that they're a religious order.
That means that there are already three things making massive demands on their time: punishment, practice and prayer. That simply doesn't leave time in the day for orgasms.
Furyou Miko wrote: My statement that they don't engage in sex is based purely on the fact they're a penitent order, the fact that they're a highly skill-focussed order, and the fact that they're a religious order.
That means that there are already three things making massive demands on their time: punishment, practice and prayer. That simply doesn't leave time in the day for orgasms.
Yeah, but they probably bathe, right? Probably communal showers. All those women, together. Soapy naughty parts. Can you get my back, Sister? Cleanliness is next to God-Emperorness. Next thing you know, wandering hands and searching fingers... Giggity.
Warboss Gorhack wrote: The non-combat orders may have slightly different rules. Certainly the Hospitallers, Famulous and Dialogous all have more interaction with Imperial society than the martial orders. How much contact they're allowed with blood relatives probably varies wildly from order to order and across the Imperium.
And now... to knock down the house of (sacred) cards:
In fluff sisters can move between orders (according to BL's old Black Industries imprint, so don't blame FFG for this one), and not just between various orders within the broader scope of 'orders militant' or 'orders famulous' but apparently you can go anywhere to anywhere, if they'll have you (important distinction, but there you have it). This would imply that many of the rules (and Rules) are not as hard and fast as you would think, with sisters moving to other orders that better fit their personalities and capabilities, which would, logically, change across the lifetime of a given sister (not everyone dies or gets promoted, so what do you do with aging sisters?).
This sort of sinks your 'sexy sisters in penitent engines' theory. They've more likely be packed off to an order that it was deemed more acceptable.
One interesting thing is that you never hear about sisters who wash out. What happens to the noviates that don't make the grade? You never really hear about that.
Sisters that wash out either die in training or get shuffled into a job in the Administratum somewhere, but they aren't members of the Sororitas at that point so what they do in their free time isn't particularly germane to the discussion. That's where most of the graduates of the Schola Progenium go, anyway. Some office job somewhere in the labyrinthine bureaucracy of the Imperium.
Sisters that move between Orders Militant and Non don't really change much. The rules between one Order and another aren't markedly different. One that, somehow, isn't "getting with the program" will probably find herself assigned to the Sisters Repentia in short order.
Warboss Gorhack wrote: The non-combat orders may have slightly different rules. Certainly the Hospitallers, Famulous and Dialogous all have more interaction with Imperial society than the martial orders. How much contact they're allowed with blood relatives probably varies wildly from order to order and across the Imperium.
And now... to knock down the house of (sacred) cards:
In fluff sisters can move between orders (according to BL's old Black Industries imprint, so don't blame FFG for this one), and not just between various orders within the broader scope of 'orders militant' or 'orders famulous' but apparently you can go anywhere to anywhere, if they'll have you (important distinction, but there you have it). This would imply that many of the rules (and Rules) are not as hard and fast as you would think, with sisters moving to other orders that better fit their personalities and capabilities, which would, logically, change across the lifetime of a given sister (not everyone dies or gets promoted, so what do you do with aging sisters?).
In fact, I believe Abbess Helena the Virtuous is technically a member of every Order at once, despite being primarily a Dialogous.
Psienesis wrote: The rules between one Order and another aren't markedly different.
Varies wildly by author and codex. (And I remind that that even the CC books are 'canon' so much as that has any meaning whatsoever.)
According to Blood of Martyrs, becoming a Repentia is something one must take up willingly. Further, strictly speaking, they're also no longer Sororitas, as part of the ceremony where they take the oath is that they are formerly separated from their order. Interestingly, Repentias can include members of non-militant orders.
As far as being cast out to become something else, I remind you that there are orders minoris for things as mundane as choir singing and graveyard tending. Yes, there are entire orders who's only job is to keep the choirs going in those super cathedrals 24/7.
Furyou Miko wrote: In fact, I believe Abbess Helena the Virtuous is technically a member of every Order at once, despite being primarily a Dialogous.
Famulous. She started out in the Order of the Key, which is a Famulous order on Ophelia VII.
If anyone were to slip, I would think it would be a Sister from the Orders Famulous. Just the fact that they're often in contact with the profane and vulgar on a daily basis, and their duties take them away the support of a Convent or other Sisters.
BaronIveagh wrote:
According to Blood of Martyrs, becoming a Repentia is something one must take up willingly. Further, strictly speaking, they're also no longer Sororitas, as part of the ceremony where they take the oath is that they are formerly separated from their order. Interestingly, Repentias can include members of non-militant orders.
According to Blood of Martyrs, they also shoot laser beams from their eyes and have civilian bolters.
Famulous. She started out in the Order of the Key, which is a Famulous order on Ophelia VII.
Thank you, sorry. Been a while since I looked.
the_Armyman wrote:If anyone were to slip, I would think it would be a Sister from the Orders Famulous. Just the fact that they're often in contact with the profane and vulgar on a daily basis, and their duties take them away the support of a Convent or other Sisters.
Famulous at least have frequent contact with their superiors.
Sisters Sabine literally live in the muck amongst the heathen masses, sharing their lifestyles. If any Sister were to have carnal relationships with anyone, it would be a Sabine... of course, she'd probably put it down as 'mission-related costs'.
Furyou Miko wrote: According to Blood of Martyrs, they also shoot laser beams from their eyes and have civilian bolters.
The Godwyn De'az does not use the 'civilian' bolter profile. Though, I grant that the Bale Eye cybernetic implant does use the same profile as a hell pistol. However, even Imperial guard Commissars can shoot beams from their eyes with it. Just ask Yarrick.
Furyou Miko wrote: According to Blood of Martyrs, they also shoot laser beams from their eyes and have civilian bolters.
The Godwyn De'az does not use the 'civilian' bolter profile. Though, I grant that the Bale Eye cybernetic implant does use the same profile as a hell pistol. However, even Imperial guard Commissars can shoot beams from their eyes with it. Just ask Yarrick.
... it has 2 Special Rules and a slightly larger magazine than the "civilian" version, and costs twice as much.
Godwyn-De'az Pattern Bolter (pg 114, Blood of Martyrs)
Class: Basic Range: 90m RoF: S/2/- Dam: 1d10+5 X Pen: 4 Clip: 30 Rld: Full Special: Reliable, Tearing Wt: 6kg Avail: Very Rare
Boltgun (pg 130, Dark Heresy, 1st Edition)
Class: Basic Range: 90m RoF: S/2/- Dam: 1d10+5X Pen: 4 Clip: 24 Rld: Full Special: N/A Wt.: 7kg Avail: Very Rare
While Tearing is nice, let's look what you gave the Astartes:
... so not only does the Astartes version of the bolter, which is firing the exact same round as the previous weapons, have better range and higher rate of fire, it has twice the damage potential and higher armor-penetration capability, plus the option for a wider range of specialty bolter rounds.
I think, given the fact that the Tearing Quality is not *that* big a deal (and far less so for a 1d10 weapon than a 2d10 weapon, given the greater chance of Righteous Fury on 3 dice, opposed to 2) it's a bit disingenuous to claim that the Sisters are not using what amounts to basically the same weapon as the gakky version presented in Dark Heresy.
As far as shooting lasers out of their eyes, we're referring to space-magic like Holy Light, Hand of the Emperor, The Passion, Soul Storm and, you know, raising the dead, as if they were a Cleric of at least 5th level from Dungeons & Dragons. Blood of Martyrs makes faith seem like space-wizardry.
As far as shooting lasers out of their eyes, we're referring to space-magic like Holy Light, Hand of the Emperor, The Passion, Soul Storm and, you know, raising the dead, as if they were a Cleric of at least 5th level from Dungeons & Dragons. Blood of Martyrs makes faith seem like space-wizardry.
Dark Heresy Second Edition and Enemies Within toned that down rather a lot. The Canoness - who can be secured as a reinforcement character - does still have 'sparkly holy radiance' powers (well, Power), but then she's meant to be the "off the top of the scale" character who's essentially about two notches short of a living saint, and sits in the same chapter as the Eversor Assassin.
The actual sororitas player characters are far more restrained. Their main ability is to gain insanity points rather than corruption points (rather than being flat-out immune to corruption), and to have a few neat tricks triggering off either their insanity score (considered a numerical value for their faith) or righteous fury.
For example, their 'martyrdom' rule, used to lett them stand up uninjured and hale when burning a fate point to avoid death. Now, when they burn a fate point to avoid death, everyone who sees them heroically go down fighting regains a spent fate point. Dismembered appendages remain missing. Thematic without being ridiculous or overpowered.
Equally, they have a trait which lets them regain spent fate points whenever they trigger righteous fury. Which is nice because (a) extra fate points represents the emperor watching over them in a subtle manner - by luck going their way - rather than 'holy glowing aura of awesomness', and (b) righteous fury as a triggering effect pairs well with the Tearing trait of bolt and chain weapons that are traditionally the sororitas' preferred arsenal.
The difference is actually even closer if you look at 2nd edition versions of the weapon stats. All bolters get Tearing. The Godwyn (astartes-calibre) weapon does 1D10+9 damage compared to normal calibre bolters, and a semi-auto rate of fire of 3 (it's lost full auto, though), whilst (as noted) the Godwyn-De'Az gets Reliable. It's still not as good, but it's a lot closer, plus the Godwyn-De'Az is actually better for some uses - primarily suppressive fire, where it (a) gets more semi-automatic bursts per magazine and (b) doesn't jam anywhere near as often.
which is firing the exact same round as the previous weapons
No, it isn't. The Astartes bolter in the RPG is specifically supposed to be a heavier calibre more akin to a 'normal' heavy bolter. Compare the Angelus bolter from the Inquisitor's handbook - a bolter chambered for astartes-calibre rounds, and as such able to hold a magazine of a grand total of three rounds, costing two hundred thrones per shell (about ten times the price of normal bolter ammo).
The Bolter profile for the Space Marines was modified in a erratum released shortly after Black Crusade. It as now the following profile Range: 100m; RoF: S/3/-; Dam: 1d10+9 Pen: 4, 28 rld (full) Special rule: Tearing. This isn't really important since those stats were made to balance different games not represent the fluff. In the same vein, you will notice that the average stats of a monster might change from one system to another (Wytchs are very dangerous in Rogue Trader, but much more tame in Only War, Kroots are more powerful in Deathwatch than Rogue Trader and Orks less powerful in Only War than Rogue Trader or Deathwatch). In Deathwatch you fight hordes and massive monster in a semi invulnerable state while in Dark Heresy you play a murder-mystery game against weird monster.
Lets keep the debate on FF game system for another time and return to the core of the subject.
@Baronlveagh
While it's possible for a Sister to change Order or even vocation this isn't really something that is very feasable or common. All the branches of the Adeptas Sororitas require very different skills and aptitude. Some of them require extansive specialised training. No, a soldier can't turn in a linguist expert (or vice versa) in matter of weeks. While its true that non militant Orders do train regularly and extensively in combat they are still much less trained than a militant Sister simply because they dedicate more time to other types of skills. The only transfer between different branches are probably for Novices whose aptitude didn't match expectations and were sent to somewhere they could be more useful or some other rare circomstances (ex: A group of Hospitalier defended their hospital against hordes of Plague Zombies and renegades at gun point for days and the survivor decided to leave their Order to seek retribution in company with Militant Sisters). Aging Sister who cannot be kept in prime fighting age by rejuvenat could also be transferred to non militant Order for «retirement». High ranking members can probably transfer Order or even belong to more than one at the same time simply in virtue of their rank and responsability, but this is mostly for ceremonial purpose. Ironically, since all Sisters are well trained in combat the easiest Order to adapt to are militant ones. Sure, a former Dialogous will trail behind a Militant in term of combat aptitude (especially in more advanced technique that require more time to master like close combat or tactical interventions), but those are skills that can be aquired very quickly provided you have the right teacher. The rules behind each Orders can be fundamentally different, but the culture remains the same. They will rever the same Saints and live harsh and disciplined lives. While a normal Sister can be considered a psycho-social mess, they aren't so broken they can't change lifestyle (as long as they keep a solid base). Beside the Sabine Sister, who would do it in a dishonest fashion, I would not expect any Sister to have more than a platonic relationship. This doesn't prevent Guardsmen from dreaming. That's all they have left.
epronovost wrote: The rules behind each Orders can be fundamentally different, but the culture remains the same. They will rever the same Saints and live harsh and disciplined lives. .
That I can disprove (as some orders minoris are formed under the authority of the Cardinals of the local synod, and would thus practice the local brand of the Imperial Creed, as opposed to coming from Ophelia, etc). I'll hold up the Orders Madriga as an example of an order that the usual 'harsh' would be unsuited for (too much risk of damaging a singing voice).
I would suggest that each Order has it's own Rule (much like the orders they're based off of) which varies in not only 'what is prohibited' but 'what is an appropriate punishment'. This does not even get into things like the commanders discretion, etc. In Hammer and Anvil one sister is shocked that the main characters were merely demoted for disobeying orders instead of being cast out of the order, suggesting that even in the main orders, the Rule is, itself, subject to interpretation.
Unless it's stated somewhere "official," there is no reason why the non-Militant orders would be looser morally than the ones with guns. Sisters of Battle are based on our real, non-Militant nuns, who are the mold for the SoB's strict morality (in the sense of their devotion to duty, not their adherence to the Ten Commandments). Nuns that tend to the sick, or dig for ancient artifacts, or educate future Commissars could be just as devoted, just as fanatical, just as isolated as the Militant orders. Maybe more so. Changing orders to pursue higher goals seem more likely than changing orders to get laid occasionally. At the end of the day, the entire Imperium is similar to Nazi's or Soviets or Imperial Japanese or North Korea in that the desires of the individual are sublimated to the needs of the state.
A boltgun is a boltgun is a boltgun. They all fire a .75 caliber armor-piercing mass-reactive explosive round. The Heavy Bolter fires a 1.0 caliber version of the same round. There is no difference between the boltpistol (for example) carried by a Commissar or an Inquisitor and that carried by a Space Marine. Yes, Space Marines are big, but they are not so big that they would hold a "regular" weapon between thumb and forefinger.
As to the Sisters? They all train at one of two Convents before being assigned to/chosen by their Order. As for harsh punishments damaging singers? Unlikely, really. The human body has lots of bits one can inflict pain on without serious risk of permanent injury, not to mention the very creative methods of discipline employed in religious and educational institutions over the past seven, eight hundred years or so.
Gobbla wrote: Sisters of Battle are based on our real, non-Militant nuns, who are the mold for the SoB's strict morality
Wrong, and this is probably where the problem is.
Culturally and militarily, SoB are based on religious orders militant, ie Knights Hospitaller, the Order of Santiago, etc with a lot of references to Joan of Arc thrown in. They have far more in common with the female members of the Order of Santiago or the Order of the Hatchet, or chevaleresses in general, than modern nuns.
Gobbla wrote: Sisters of Battle are based on our real, non-Militant nuns, who are the mold for the SoB's strict morality
Wrong, and this is probably where the problem is.
Culturally and militarily, SoB are based on religious orders militant, ie Knights Hospitaller, the Order of Santiago, etc with a lot of references to Joan of Arc thrown in. They have far more in common with the female members of the Order of Santiago or the Order of the Hatchet, or chevaleresses in general, than modern nuns.
OK, good to know.
How does this change anything about this discussion? The first thing that pops out of the latest SoB codex is the "Nuns with Guns" theme, and the "fanatical devotion" and "unwavering purity" as a"bulwark against corruption." Of course, modern nuns aren't fanatics, but the inspiration is there. Militarizing Sisters the 40K way might be more inline with those religious orders militant, but that don't change the commonality with modern nuns. Or, at least the interpretation presented by SoB's. And, it's not relevant to my point, which is fighters or not, the other non-militant orders would not necessarily be less fanatically devoted, or less unwaveringly pure.
If I understand it, the idea is that suffering is worthwhile because the Emperor suffers constantly and greatly for mankind, (it's a defining quality) and thus, when you suffer (particularly for a worthy cause), it brings you closer to the Emperor.
Warboss Gorhack wrote: Clerical investiture is essentially a marriage TO God. To have a relationship with a human is to remove the divine from first place in one's loyalty and affections.
Stopping for a moment to go off on a bit of a tangent: It was one of tenants of the Temple of the Savior Emperor and was pretty much crushed with the Thorian Reformation, with Thor rather specifically re-branding Vandire's 'Brides of the Emperor'. Suggesting this sort of relationship between Sisters and the Emperor would mark one out within the Ecclesiarchy as a member of the Temple of the Savior Emperor.
Yes, yes it is.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gobbla wrote: How does this change anything about this discussion? The first thing that pops out of the latest SoB codex is the "Nuns with Guns" theme, and the "fanatical devotion" and "unwavering purity" as a"bulwark against corruption." Of course, modern nuns aren't fanatics, but the inspiration is there. Militarizing Sisters the 40K way might be more inline with those religious orders militant, but that don't change the commonality with modern nuns. Or, at least the interpretation presented by SoB's. And, it's not relevant to my point, which is fighters or not, the other non-militant orders would not necessarily be less fanatically devoted, or less unwaveringly pure.
Chastity does not always equate spiritual Purity, nor has it always been a prerequisite for it. (For example, 'Chaste' [spiritually pure] and 'chastity' [the state of virginity] were not the same things in English until about 1600.)
The relevance is that the Rule of most orders militant is based in the real world situations, as opposed to the Rules of monastic orders greater focus on the spiritual. Our only specific source on it states that they do not take an Oath of Chastity. There are many more orders militant that do not require such an oath than ones that do. (Either directly or indirectly as an element of their Rule)
As far as how 'harsh' they have it, it sounds like a lot of you seem to think that this is borderline BSDM (Again, this is not the Temple of Slaaansh). \
There is no commonality with modern nuns (beyond the words 'abbess' and 'convent'). Joan of Arc. I watch people get beaten savagely with symbols tied to Joan of Arc, and all they seem to think is 'nuns'..
'Nuns with guns' has been a long running meme with sisters but it's also pretty far from the truth.
Warboss Gorhack wrote: Clerical investiture is essentially a marriage TO God. To have a relationship with a human is to remove the divine from first place in one's loyalty and affections.
Stopping for a moment to go off on a bit of a tangent: It was one of tenants of the Temple of the Emperor Ascendant and was pretty much crushed with the Thorian Reformation, with Thor rather specifically re-branding Vandire's 'Brides of the Emperor'.
What? Where is that from?
Not the rebranding, of course, the rest.
What? Where is that from?
Not the rebranding, of course, the rest.
Ok, one, I mistyped and meant the Temple of the Savior Emperor, (the Temple of the Emperor Ascendant is the building on Armageddon where Grimaldus had his last stand).
The information is mostly from Disciples of the Dark Gods, combined with what's in Codex: Sisters of Battle and Codex: Witchhunters.
Vandire makes a big deal out of the Sisters and the nature of their relationship with the Emperor when he renames them the 'Brides of the Emperor' with all the connotations that comes along with that. Thor makes an equally serious point when he reverts them to their original name, as this rebukes Vandires view on what their relationship to the Emperor is.
The idea of being 'married to god' would actually be quite repellent to the average sister for that reason. Plus the fact that the inquisition has branded priests who reject Thor's reforms as heretics.
What? Where is that from?
Not the rebranding, of course, the rest.
Ok, one, I mistyped and meant the Temple of the Savior Emperor, (the Temple of the Emperor Ascendant is the building on Armageddon where Grimaldus had his last stand).
The information is mostly from Disciples of the Dark Gods, combined with what's in Codex: Sisters of Battle and Codex: Witchhunters.
Vandire makes a big deal out of the Sisters and the nature of their relationship with the Emperor when he renames them the 'Brides of the Emperor' with all the connotations that comes along with that. Thor makes an equally serious point when he reverts them to their original name, as this rebukes Vandires view on what their relationship to the Emperor is.
The idea of being 'married to god' would actually be quite repellent to the average sister for that reason. Plus the fact that the inquisition has branded priests who reject Thor's reforms as heretics.
Vandire renamed the Daughters of the Emperor the Brides of the Emperor because he pictured himself has the «reincarnation» of the Emperor (or at least wanted people to believe he was. It's a bit unclear as to when he started to believe his own lies). He called them his Brides because he lusted over them and you can' lust over your children. Ironically, the Sisters of Battle refer to themselves as the Daughters of the Emperor, a link that was only used by the Primarchs before them (only them refer to the Emperor as a father) which is, in my opinion, an even closer and deeper bond. If I am not mistaken, the Sisters themselves abandonned the name of Brides to reclaim the one of Daughters after the event of the Golden Throne.
Vandire renamed the Daughters of the Emperor the Brides of the Emperor because he pictured himself has the «reincarnation» of the Emperor (or at least wanted people to believe he was. It's a bit unclear as to when he started to believe his own lies).
However, the issue remain that he put this idea in people's heads. Regardless of why Vandire did it, the idea of being 'Wed to God' would be abhorrent to the Eccelsiarchy afterward, if only because of the association.
According to page 23 of Blood of Martyrs, Sisters leaving their orders entirely is not unknown, though for many the next destination of the Ordo Hereticus to become Inquisitors.
If you want a wild departure from type, at least one Cannoness has left her order to become a Rogue Trader.
Psienesis wrote: "The purpose of life is to suffer" is basically a core tenet of the Sisterhood.
No, it's a core tenant of Slaanesh. Suffering for suffering's sake is not noble, it's self-destructive idiocy.
Slaanesh isn't about suffering, he's about extremism. Anyway.
"The purpose of Life is to suffer" is a twofold paradigm to the Sisterhood.
Firstly, you have the precept that the Emperor suffers for all humanity, and by suffering, the Sisters are supporting the Emperor in that. As cleanliness is next to godliness, so suffering is divine.
Secondly, you have the fact that the Sisterhood are a penitent Order. They - especially the Order of the Valorous Heart - are driven by the need to atone for the Brides' actions during the Reign of Blood. The Sisterhoods' suffering is also penance for their sins.
(and I'd like to see a Space Marine who's willing to be held accountable for the Horus Heresy and still be repenting for it!)
Psienesis wrote: "The purpose of life is to suffer" is basically a core tenet of the Sisterhood.
No, it's a core tenant of Slaanesh. Suffering for suffering's sake is not noble, it's self-destructive idiocy.
Slaanesh isn't about suffering, he's about extremism. Anyway.
"The purpose of Life is to suffer" is a twofold paradigm to the Sisterhood.
Firstly, you have the precept that the Emperor suffers for all humanity, and by suffering, the Sisters are supporting the Emperor in that. As cleanliness is next to godliness, so suffering is divine.
Secondly, you have the fact that the Sisterhood are a penitent Order. They - especially the Order of the Valorous Heart - are driven by the need to atone for the Brides' actions during the Reign of Blood. The Sisterhoods' suffering is also penance for their sins.
(and I'd like to see a Space Marine who's willing to be held accountable for the Horus Heresy and still be repenting for it!)
Psienesis wrote: "The purpose of life is to suffer" is basically a core tenet of the Sisterhood.
No, it's a core tenant of Slaanesh. Suffering for suffering's sake is not noble, it's self-destructive idiocy.
Slaanesh isn't about suffering, he's about extremism. Anyway.
"The purpose of Life is to suffer" is a twofold paradigm to the Sisterhood.
Firstly, you have the precept that the Emperor suffers for all humanity, and by suffering, the Sisters are supporting the Emperor in that. As cleanliness is next to godliness, so suffering is divine.
Secondly, you have the fact that the Sisterhood are a penitent Order. They - especially the Order of the Valorous Heart - are driven by the need to atone for the Brides' actions during the Reign of Blood. The Sisterhoods' suffering is also penance for their sins.
(and I'd like to see a Space Marine who's willing to be held accountable for the Horus Heresy and still be repenting for it!)
BaronIveagh wrote: The information is mostly from Disciples of the Dark Gods, combined with what's in Codex: Sisters of Battle and Codex: Witchhunters.
I do not remember anything about this in those two last books. I have not read the first one though.
BoM is the FFG written, GW approved, reference/splat book on the Eccelesiarchy in General and SoB in specific, for DH 1st Ed
Furyou Miko wrote: Just another reason to discard Blood of Martyrs as the steaming pile of grox dung that it is.
As opposed to such gems as James Swallow's books (which is more important, saving the souls of a planet, or a city?)? or do you prefer Matt Ward's 'snufftide' of work?
At least in BoM they're both competent (occasionally very much so) and capable of winning without IG or SM holding their hands. I know the appearance of reasonable, humanlike people in the 40k setting might offend some purists who prefer to believe that all trains in the IoM run on steam engines powered by babies being burned alive, but the idea that 'Hey, I inherited a warrant of trade, why the feth am I living like this'? might enter someone's mind. I mean, there's still the aspect where Cardinal Cockblockalus screams 'Sacred Cheezy Poofs!" and proceeds to kill a few million people in the Holy War of Determining If There Should Be An Apostrophe In the Title of "Drusus Guide To Sacred Gardening Vol XXXXI'.
I grant, the CRUNCH in it leaves a lot to be desired, and 2nd ed is much improved, but the fluff was much better and more in depth on the Eccelisiarchy in General and SoB in specific than anything offered in a codex for years.
I do not remember anything about this in those two last books. I have not read the first one though.
The part about the Temple Tendency (as it's otherwise known) gives an interesting look at what happened to Vandire's side following the Reign of Blood.
I'll try to have a look at it, then, I guess. Even though I probably won't buy it, because I guess there is only a tiny portion of the book that will be about stuff I am interested in, and because, well, GW have lost any good-will I had toward them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, regarding thread title, I feel I need to point that Sisters almost exclusively have non-plastic relationships!!!
Psienesis wrote: "The purpose of life is to suffer" is basically a core tenet of the Sisterhood.
No, it's a core tenant of Slaanesh. Suffering for suffering's sake is not noble, it's self-destructive idiocy.
Slaanesh isn't about suffering, he's about extremism. Anyway.
Slaanesh is about experiencing sensation. The extremism is a means to an end - a search for new and exciting sensations when you've become jaded to more acceptable experiences.
On the original topic, I'm fine with Sisters of Battle not holding any particular opposition to sex. They might not have sex because they've got more important things to do, but I think that the Imperium is far more interesting as a product of its times than as a knock-off of medieval Christianity, so I like the idea that a loyal subject of the Imperium would be murderously prejudiced against witches (because the Age of Strife proved that "live and let live" doesn't work for walking gateways to hell) and other religions (because other gods really do exist, and they want to eat your soul) while also having enlightened views on race and sex.
As has been said Sisters aren't nuns.
Consider them Space Paladins- heavily armoured enforcers who recieve faith based power from their god to smite unbelievers .
There's some overlap, especially because the ecclesiarchy draws heavily from Catholicism for Gothic imagery. and because they are an all female order.
I subscribe to the Cain theory of Sororitas mating patterns: Its not forbidden but its so rare that they have both the inclination or opportunity that even Commissars who come from the same school assume there's a vow of chastity.
When not shooting the various enemies of mankind they work with missionaries and in medical orders etc and have plenty of exposure to laymen (or laywomen)
Vandire renamed the Daughters of the Emperor the Brides of the Emperor because he pictured himself has the «reincarnation» of the Emperor (or at least wanted people to believe he was. It's a bit unclear as to when he started to believe his own lies).
However, the issue remain that he put this idea in people's heads. Regardless of why Vandire did it, the idea of being 'Wed to God' would be abhorrent to the Eccelsiarchy afterward, if only because of the association.
According to page 23 of Blood of Martyrs, Sisters leaving their orders entirely is not unknown, though for many the next destination of the Ordo Hereticus to become Inquisitors.
If you want a wild departure from type, at least one Cannoness has left her order to become a Rogue Trader.
I don't think the Inquisition really count since they can reclaim anyone at their services. It does make sense that a Sister of Battle (or from a non-militant Order) to become a member of the Inquisition. It must be a very rare occurence since the Inquisition favors intelligence, strength of personality and independance as qualitites and let say that the you won't find those qualities in abundance in the ranks of the zealots. I don't think you will see any Sister departing her Order to live a «normal» imperial subject life. A Rogue Trader who was a former Sister is like a blue moon. If it happens it will probbly be the only exception or so since those titles are hereditary and Sisters are systematically orphans that had their memory wiped clean and their name changed. It would be possible for one to be traced back to a Rogue Trader family since they are nobles and their orphanned sons and daughters are thus sent to Scholam, but it would be extremely difficult to find the correct one, prove her identity as a descendant of the Rogue Trader family. I hope for that Rogue Trader dynastie that the former Cannoness was from a Famulus or has an excellent seneshal else they will go bankrupt pretty fast. At least she probably has good contact in the Ecclesiarchy.
Ashiraya wrote: Because you can't decide what is isn't excusable by saying 'it's just stylistic'?
Yeah you can. “Faster than the eye can follow” is pretty clearly stylistic, not some scientific accurate measurement, and anyone that does not have a direct interest in not understanding it correctly will understand so .
Vandire renamed the Daughters of the Emperor the Brides of the Emperor because he pictured himself has the «reincarnation» of the Emperor (or at least wanted people to believe he was. It's a bit unclear as to when he started to believe his own lies).
However, the issue remain that he put this idea in people's heads. Regardless of why Vandire did it, the idea of being 'Wed to God' would be abhorrent to the Eccelsiarchy afterward, if only because of the association.
According to page 23 of Blood of Martyrs, Sisters leaving their orders entirely is not unknown, though for many the next destination of the Ordo Hereticus to become Inquisitors.
If you want a wild departure from type, at least one Cannoness has left her order to become a Rogue Trader.
I don't think the Inquisition really count since they can reclaim anyone at their services. It does make sense that a Sister of Battle (or from a non-militant Order) to become a member of the Inquisition. It must be a very rare occurence since the Inquisition favors intelligence, strength of personality and independance as qualitites and let say that the you won't find those qualities in abundance in the ranks of the zealots. I don't think you will see any Sister departing her Order to live a «normal» imperial subject life. A Rogue Trader who was a former Sister is like a blue moon. If it happens it will probbly be the only exception or so since those titles are hereditary and Sisters are systematically orphans that had their memory wiped clean and their name changed. It would be possible for one to be traced back to a Rogue Trader family since they are nobles and their orphanned sons and daughters are thus sent to Scholam, but it would be extremely difficult to find the correct one, prove her identity as a descendant of the Rogue Trader family. I hope for that Rogue Trader dynastie that the former Cannoness was from a Famulus or has an excellent seneshal else they will go bankrupt pretty fast. At least she probably has good contact in the Ecclesiarchy.
A Sister Sabine or a Sister Pronatus or a Sister Dialoguous would be a perfect fit for the more academically-minded Inquisitor. Armored in faith and purity, Sisters can handle artifacts and tomes that would damn a lesser being. Not all Inquisitors are Eisenhorn or Ravenor. Someone like Inquisitor Karamazov would make great use of a team of Battle Sisters.
As for the rest? I agree. A Sister is from the Schola Progenium, even if they have living family members, they have no ties to them.
As to the relative value of FFG's books? Eh.... GW also approved Grimnar's flying dog sled, and a *host* of ultra-gakky iPhone games, so the stamp of GW approval doesn't mean a whole lot.
epronovost wrote: orphans that had their memory wiped clean and their name changed.
I'm trying to find the memory wiped part and can't. Where are you getting that from? None of the recent depictions I've found of what goes on in these facilities sounds like this. (Brutal sure, it's a catholic orphanage IN SPACE, but a lot of how writers seem to depict them are a lot less brutal than actual catholic orphanages. Or even US Indian Schools.)
epronovost wrote: orphans that had their memory wiped clean and their name changed.
I'm trying to find the memory wiped part and can't. Where are you getting that from?
Unless somebody wrote something incredibly stupid and got it added to canon, he's making it up. It's Space Marines who rely on psycho-surgery, not the Sisters of Battle. The Sisters rely on True Faith, and you can't make someone have that.
epronovost wrote: It does make sense that a Sister of Battle (or from a non-militant Order) to become a member of the Inquisition. It must be a very rare occurence since the Inquisition favors intelligence, strength of personality and independance as qualitites and let say that the you won't find those qualities in abundance in the ranks of the zealots.A Rogue Trader who was a former Sister is like a blue moon. If it happens it will probbly be the only exception or so since those titles are hereditary and Sisters are systematically orphans that had their memory wiped clean and their name changed. It would be possible for one to be traced back to a Rogue Trader family since they are nobles and their orphanned sons and daughters are thus sent to Scholam, but it would be extremely difficult to find the correct one, prove her identity as a descendant of the Rogue Trader family. I hope for that Rogue Trader dynastie that the former Cannoness was from a Famulus or has an excellent seneshal else they will go bankrupt pretty fast. At least she probably has good contact in the Ecclesiarchy.
Now, now - a Sister's personality might be that of a fanatic but it is certainly strong. I recall some text piece from a novel where a Sister and a Marine confront a Daemon who asks for their names. The Sister refuses to say anything, but the Marine (proud of his Chapter and accomplishments) declares his title and name with no thought of the possible consequences. For some Inquisitorial duties this sort of closed mind could be very beneficial. A former Canoness who has burned a thosand heretics personally and ordered the deaths of millions more isn't going to let some sob story touch her. And she didn't lead her Sisters to victory by being stupid either.
Rogue Trader dynasties are still founded by the High Lords of Terra. They might not get quite as wide warrants as the old famous ones, maybe just permission to ply their trade in a certain sector, but if there's need for one then one is founded. A Canoness who's proven her loyalty countless times is no worse a candidate for the post than some Admiral or nobleman. She certainly knows something about supply lines after a century or two of keeping 1000+ Sisters working as an effective force.
epronovost wrote: orphans that had their memory wiped clean and their name changed.
I'm trying to find the memory wiped part and can't. Where are you getting that from? None of the recent depictions I've found of what goes on in these facilities sounds like this. (Brutal sure, it's a catholic orphanage IN SPACE, but a lot of how writers seem to depict them are a lot less brutal than actual catholic orphanages. Or even US Indian Schools.)
Codex Millitarum Tempestus. It covers the Scholam in more detail than the actual Tempestus Academie where Scions are trained. It mentions that memory wipe are systematic (but not always completly succesful as some students are left with weird broken remenant of their memory that sometimes drives them insane) and all cadet receive new names based on saints and heroes of the Imperium. The only exception are brothers and sisters who sometimes keep their own name to enhance their ties and foster competition. It also mention their brutal technic which are describe as children torture by some people (and its not that inacurate).
Where do we find and example in the background of a Sister of Battle having an intimate relationship? Where do we find an example of a Space Marine having an intimate relationship? One example would answer the question.
Lacking that, why would SM's and SoB's not have intimate relationships? And more importantly to the discussion, why would they? Do SM's and SoB's get time off for pregnancy and Maternity Leave? Do they take off a few years to raise kids? Do their families follow them from campaign to campaign?
If we easily accept that SM's are celebrate (by oath or genetic side effects, or martial discipline), why would SoB's be more promiscuous?
Gobbla wrote: Where do we find and example in the background of a Sister of Battle having an intimate relationship? Where do we find an example of a Space Marine having an intimate relationship? One example would answer the question.
Lacking that, why would SM's and SoB's not have intimate relationships? And more importantly to the discussion, why would they? Do SM's and SoB's get time off for pregnancy and Maternity Leave? Do they take off a few years to raise kids? Do their families follow them from campaign to campaign?
If we easily accept that SM's are celebrate (by oath or genetic side effects, or martial discipline), why would SoB's be more promiscuous?
It all comes down the Chapter/Order the Astartes or Sororitas belongs to. If the Chapter doesn't do a whole lot, the possibility of an Astartes having a non-platonic relationship is raised (Salamanders for instance, who live with the people of Nocturne). If the Order is not a Chambers Militant, the possibility of a non-platonic relationship is also raised.
Gobbla wrote: Where do we find and example in the background of a Sister of Battle having an intimate relationship?
Cain's Last Stand, which is where we get a flat out statement that sisters do not take a vow of chastity. Though it's rare enough that Cain is surprised.
Daemonifuge, but that could could be considered questionable, as it ends in daemon possession. Sister was apparently sleeping with a Navigator.
Though the Cain novels are implied to be a parody of 40k in general, both in-universe and IRL, so take anything suggested as "fact" from those books with a grain of salt.
Psienesis wrote: Though the Cain novels are implied to be a parody of 40k in general, both in-universe and IRL, so take anything suggested as "fact" from those books with a grain of salt.
Psienesis, let me tell you how this discussion goes. You malign my sources and demand others. I provide them. You malign those too, and the circle gets smaller and smaller until you demand that I have to prove it with only the material on page 123 of Codex: Psienesis' Preffered Sisters of Battle edition, and that all other fluff, no matter how voluminous or recent, is irrelevant. I've been down this road before, and it did indeed reach the point that, upon demanding that I produce a GW codex source (no Forgeworld or Black Library BS, let alone, God help us, FFG) with an example of a space marine strike cruiser armed with a lance, and, upon producing not just one, but three very specific examples in a brand new GW Codex, the mental gymnasts claimed that A) they were talking about some other starship weapon that was also called a lance and just happened to fire 'lance strikes' at the ground that in no way resembled 'real' starship 'lance strikes' and/or that there were Eldar Weapons mounted on space marine strike cruisers that could just happen hit from orbit, and/or that the codex did not count, as it was too new and what does Phil Kelly know about writing 40k anyway?
This was in an actual discussion among playtesters and designers where we were troubleshooting GW's official rules for an official FAQ. People were actually trying to sabotage crunch to force their own head-canon on the game's fluff.
"I'm going to hide my shame behind a hood and betray and kill everyone who finds out that my ancestors did something wrong" is not in any way repentant behaviour! They're not atoning, they're trying to pretend it never happened!
GoonBandito wrote:
I think she means a Loyalist chapter
No, I would accept a traitor chapter too, if they actually were regretful and trying to atone. The closest, I think, is the Imperial Fists - but in the Fists' case, it really is a case of potential Slaaneshi corruption as they are "over-eager" to use the Pain Glove without a reason ever being actually given.
Ashiraya wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote: Just another reason to discard Blood of Martyrs as the steaming pile of grox dung that it is.
BoM is the FFG written, GW approved, reference/splat book on the Eccelesiarchy in General and SoB in specific, for DH 1st Ed
"GW Approved", yeah... like that means anyone at GW even read it, rather than just handing FFG the licence and telling them when their royalty cheque is due.
BaronIveagh wrote:
As opposed to such gems as James Swallow's books (which is more important, saving the souls of a planet, or a city?)? or do you prefer Matt Ward's 'snufftide' of work?
The worst part about Swallows' books isn't that Miriya is a special snowflake - it's that her bosses know she's a rogue, and they still support her actions and reward her for things that should see her in the Repentia.
BaronIveagh wrote:At least in BoM they're both competent (occasionally very much so) and capable of winning without IG or SM holding their hands. I know the appearance of reasonable, humanlike people in the 40k setting might offend some purists who prefer to believe that all trains in the IoM run on steam engines powered by babies being burned alive, but the idea that 'Hey, I inherited a warrant of trade, why the feth am I living like this'? might enter someone's mind. I mean, there's still the aspect where Cardinal Cockblockalus screams 'Sacred Cheezy Poofs!" and proceeds to kill a few million people in the Holy War of Determining If There Should Be An Apostrophe In the Title of "Drusus Guide To Sacred Gardening Vol XXXXI'.
Seriously? Are we even talking about the same book?
BoM makes a special note of the fact that the Sisters are badass enough to fight "renegade guard and sometimes even Orks!"
Sometimes even orks?! What the actual hell? Regular Guardsmen fight orks all the time, and you're saying that a Sister has to be especially specially awesome to take them on?
The main problem with the Sister who inherits a Letter of Marque is that if her faith and devotion to the Sisterhood was that weak, she would never have made it past Novice - and she certainly wouldn't be Faithful enough to receive the Emperor's blessings.
BaronIveagh wrote:I grant, the CRUNCH in it leaves a lot to be desired, and 2nd ed is much improved, but the fluff was much better and more in depth on the Eccelisiarchy in General and SoB in specific than anything offered in a codex for years.
... The book demands that Battle Sisters have to earn their helmets in battle. That's just stupid. It also directly contradicts the direct fluff statement in previous books that Sororitas power armour offers the same degree of protection as Astartes power armour, by giving them what basically amounts to "battery powered masterwork light power armour", instead of the fusion-powered full war plate it's supposed to be.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Ashiraya wrote: Because you can't decide what is isn't excusable by saying 'it's just stylistic'?
Yeah you can. “Faster than the eye can follow” is pretty clearly stylistic, not some scientific accurate measurement, and anyone that does not have a direct interest in not understanding it correctly will understand so .
Faster than the eye can follow isn't hard. I can move my hand faster than the eye can follow, the human eye is pretty crap at tracking rapid movement.
BaronIveagh wrote:
Gobbla wrote: Where do we find and example in the background of a Sister of Battle having an intimate relationship?
Cain's Last Stand, which is where we get a flat out statement that sisters do not take a vow of chastity. Though it's rare enough that Cain is surprised.
Daemonifuge, but that could could be considered questionable, as it ends in daemon possession. Sister was apparently sleeping with a Navigator.
I believe it's pretty obvious when you actually read it that both the Sister who attempts to murder Ephrael at the beginning, and the one who seduced the navigator, were actually daemons in disguise all along. Especially since they're visually identical even though Ephrael rips the first one out of its skinsuit long before the second one appears.
Yeah you can. “Faster than the eye can follow” is pretty clearly stylistic, not some scientific accurate measurement, and anyone that does not have a direct interest in not understanding it correctly will understand so .
I have not mentioned 'faster than the eye can follow.'
Psienesis wrote: Though the Cain novels are implied to be a parody of 40k in general, both in-universe and IRL, so take anything suggested as "fact" from those books with a grain of salt.
Psienesis, let me tell you how this discussion goes. You malign my sources and demand others. I provide them. You malign those too, and the circle gets smaller and smaller until you demand that I have to prove it with only the material on page 123 of Codex: Psienesis' Preffered Sisters of Battle edition, and that all other fluff, no matter how voluminous or recent, is irrelevant. I've been down this road before, and it did indeed reach the point that, upon demanding that I produce a GW codex source (no Forgeworld or Black Library BS, let alone, God help us, FFG) with an example of a space marine strike cruiser armed with a lance, and, upon producing not just one, but three very specific examples in a brand new GW Codex, the mental gymnasts claimed that A) they were talking about some other starship weapon that was also called a lance and just happened to fire 'lance strikes' at the ground that in no way resembled 'real' starship 'lance strikes' and/or that there were Eldar Weapons mounted on space marine strike cruisers that could just happen hit from orbit, and/or that the codex did not count, as it was too new and what does Phil Kelly know about writing 40k anyway?
This was in an actual discussion among playtesters and designers where we were troubleshooting GW's official rules for an official FAQ. People were actually trying to sabotage crunch to force their own head-canon on the game's fluff.
Cannot comment on the lance discussion as I don't think I was involved with that, but I will, again, reiterate that using a source that is intended to be satirical of the setting, and the grim-darkness, and contains in-universe jokes about other Black Library books, authors and characters is, perhaps, not the best source for "canon" citations.
Ashiraya wrote: I have not mentioned 'faster than the eye can follow.'
You have not yet mentioned it in this discussion .
Furyou Miko wrote: Faster than the eye can follow isn't hard. I can move my hand faster than the eye can follow, the human eye is pretty crap at tracking rapid movement.
Well, Ashiraya had an… interesting explanation about it. But maybe it was not exactly this wording, which would explain the above. What was it about something being described in an obviously stylistic fashion as very fast and you looking to actual science to get a precise measurement that made literally no sense, Ashiraya?
Cannot comment on the lance discussion as I don't think I was involved with that, but I will, again, reiterate that using a source that is intended to be satirical of the setting, and the grim-darkness, and contains in-universe jokes about other Black Library books, authors and characters is, perhaps, not the best source for "canon" citations.
Where is it stated that Cain is satire of the 40k Universe rather than humour IN the 40k universe?
IIRC the same novel that has Cain at the scholam where he sees a Sororitas instructor having a relationship with a scribe is the novel
Spoiler:
with the student who Cain doesn't fully trust because he reminds him of himself and eventually a chaos psyker lord who has telepathic mind control.
Cain inevitably builds a rapport of sorts with the lad, but when he falls under mind control is forced to execute him.
He takes off his own sash and places it on the boys corpse, 'graduating him' symbolically post-mortem.
The mind control does not stop (phantom menace style) when the psyker is dealt with either, so Imperial forces are forced to gun down once loyal comrades and sisters of battle.
Real light-hearted, funny stuff.
You are confusing Cain's sense of humour and Vail's sarcasm with the subject matter. If you lived through the grim darkness of the 41st millennium you would need a coping mechanism and humour is as good as any.
The series occasionally ribs other author's more 'gritty' works with the Ghosts famous battle cry being derided as melodrama (a fair point) but it never crosses into making fun of the universe itself.
Cain as 'sensible commissar' has not prevented him from executing two guardsmen under his direct command which is more than Gaunt has done. I'm aware Gaunt went grimdark on some PDF once and he killed his Uncle, but I think Hark has killed more Ghosts than Gaunt.
Yeah you can. “Faster than the eye can follow” is pretty clearly stylistic, not some scientific accurate measurement, and anyone that does not have a direct interest in not understanding it correctly will understand so .
I have not mentioned 'faster than the eye can follow.'
"GW Approved", yeah... like that means anyone at GW even read it, rather than just handing FFG the licence and telling them when their royalty cheque is due.
You really obviously have never had to deal with GW in this context. Ever. While they do occasionally let gak slip, and some are given way more leeway than others, most of the time they are anal beyond all belief (see above discussion of lances). FFG had to submit the battlecry for their in houseSM chapter for approval more than 30 times, until GW finally approved one. Defiant class light cruisers were forced to remain uselessly broken in Battlefleet Koronus because they are on the table top.
I'll listen to what you think of SoB, but don't even try to tell me how you thinkGW works in this context. Very few posters have had to deal with GW's licensing bs department, but I'm told that it's a lot like what we went through with BFG, ie GW going full on pants-on-head slowed.
The main problem with the Sister who inherits a Letter of Marque is that if her faith and devotion to the Sisterhood was that weak, she would never have made it past Novice - and she certainly wouldn't be Faithful enough to receive the Emperor's blessings.
Well, first of all it's called a 'Writ of Trade' (A Letter of Marque is an annotation to it) and second it makes you the Emperor's direct representative when outside the boundaries of the Imperium. Some of said writs are actually signed by the Emperor himself they are so old, and the Ecclesiarchy is the source of more than a few of them as well.
What faithful sister would turn down what basically amounts to a direct promotion to being the Emperor's right hand outside the bounds of the Imperium?
Also, they're not something that can actually *be* turned down. The Emperor originally created them as a politically acceptable way to get rid of the powerful and ambitious during the Unification wars, and it is apparently a still a common use for them.
I believe it's pretty obvious when you actually read it that both the Sister who attempts to murder Ephrael at the beginning, and the one who seduced the navigator, were actually daemons in disguise all along. Especially since they're visually identical even though Ephrael rips the first one out of its skinsuit long before the second one appears.
Except that most of the sisters are visually identical in that, so that's a bit of a no sell there. And how would daemons get through initiation into the SoB? They clearly had been in a long time, because they had access to some of the most secure areas, and no mysterious bodies showed up, so they're unlikely to have been shapeshifters masquerading as a particular sister. No, this looks more like some sisters got possessed.
To the original question, the contrary evidence needs to be like an NFL challenge. There, the call on the field is only reversed if the contrary evidence is conclusive. Here, reversing decades of popular conception is a reasonably hard sell. One incident in one book that is itself premised on contrary evidence (i.e. the Cowardly Commissar), or the the actions of one Sister may not be conclusive to some (or most). In any case, good discussion that could have easily gone off the rails.
Gobbla wrote: To the original question, the contrary evidence needs to be like an NFL challenge. There, the call on the field is only reversed if the contrary evidence is conclusive.
The issue is that GW deliberately writes it so that not only is any particular detail exists in some sort of writing version of quantum super positioning where it occupies all possible states of truth and untruth simultaneously. Throw people's head canon into the mix and it becomes a sort of quantum singularity, where no correct or incorrect conception exists. Games Workshop has indeed set out with this as their GOAL for the canon.
Sadly, the inevitable result of this is a universal reboot in most fictional settings that devolve to the point that 40k has as far as altering the timeline to shoehorn in more stuff.
The Cain series is as valid as anything else written by Games Workshop, as per their canon policy, which basically amounts to an indifferent shrug. One may have any sort of opinion on the quality of it, but officially it's just as valid as anything else.
Granted, I never liked the whole bit of fluff introduced in the Cain books. It always seemed to me more of a bit of immature wish fulfillment to all those fanboys with the "naughty nun'' fantasies, on Sandy Mitchell's part. It kinda defeats the whole point of the Sisters being these ultra-zealous nuns whose faith and devotion is so strong it has tangible effects and miracles. Having romantic or intimate relationships seems to really go against that whole sort of ascetic selfless devotion.
Gree wrote: The Cain series is as valid as anything else written by Games Workshop, as per their canon policy, which basically amounts to an indifferent shrug. One may have any sort of opinion on the quality of it, but officially it's just as valid as anything else.
Granted, I never liked the whole bit of fluff introduced in the Cain books. It always seemed to me more of a bit of immature wish fulfillment to all those fanboys with the "naughty nun'' fantasies, on Sandy Mitchell's part. It kinda defeats the whole point of the Sisters being these ultra-zealous nuns whose faith and devotion is so strong it has tangible effects and miracles. Having romantic or intimate relationships seems to really go against that whole sort of ascetic selfless devotion.
We already have two human forces who left their humanity at the door and another who uninstalled it while upgrading firmware.
Sisters can love. They can be fanatics and still have joy in the Emperor, their sisterhood and occasionally, their humanity.
Ultra zealous paladins can still have functioning relationships
Regarding the Cain series, its not so much wish fulfillment as rehumanising 40k and making it a struggle of men against a hostile galaxy, not brainwashed serfs and lab grown mutants railing with pure hatred against hatred.
The Cain books give us techpriests who enjoy eating food, a clerk who works with a computer but puts ink stains on his clothes for political reasons within the administration, a fierce but kind sister who cares for the poor when she's not training novices in bolter drills.
All in a book about a commissar who is terrified by the 41st millennium but fights on.
I'd rather read about that than sigmarites with bolters and lasguns, grimly grimacing as they die and respawn for the Emperor.
Gree wrote: The Cain series is as valid as anything else written by Games Workshop, as per their canon policy, which basically amounts to an indifferent shrug. One may have any sort of opinion on the quality of it, but officially it's just as valid as anything else.
Granted, I never liked the whole bit of fluff introduced in the Cain books. It always seemed to me more of a bit of immature wish fulfillment to all those fanboys with the "naughty nun'' fantasies, on Sandy Mitchell's part. It kinda defeats the whole point of the Sisters being these ultra-zealous nuns whose faith and devotion is so strong it has tangible effects and miracles. Having romantic or intimate relationships seems to really go against that whole sort of ascetic selfless devotion.
We already have two human forces who left their humanity at the door and another who uninstalled it while upgrading firmware.
Sisters can love. They can be fanatics and still have joy in the Emperor, their sisterhood and occasionally, their humanity.
Ultra zealous paladins can still have functioning relationships.
I'm sorry if I don't share your opinion, but I don't agree with that at all.
Granted, I don't think that Sisters are emotionless worship bots without any kind of personality but I don't think they would go for the kind of romantic relationships like that.
Gree wrote: The Cain series is as valid as anything else written by Games Workshop, as per their canon policy, which basically amounts to an indifferent shrug. One may have any sort of opinion on the quality of it, but officially it's just as valid as anything else.
Granted, I never liked the whole bit of fluff introduced in the Cain books. It always seemed to me more of a bit of immature wish fulfillment to all those fanboys with the "naughty nun'' fantasies, on Sandy Mitchell's part. It kinda defeats the whole point of the Sisters being these ultra-zealous nuns whose faith and devotion is so strong it has tangible effects and miracles. Having romantic or intimate relationships seems to really go against that whole sort of ascetic selfless devotion.
We already have two human forces who left their humanity at the door and another who uninstalled it while upgrading firmware.
Sisters can love. They can be fanatics and still have joy in the Emperor, their sisterhood and occasionally, their humanity.
Ultra zealous paladins can still have functioning relationships.
I'm sorry if I don't share your opinion, but I don't agree with that at all.
Granted, I don't think that Sisters are emotionless worship bots without any kind of personality but I don't think they would go for the kind of romantic relationships like that.
I agree. I don't think they would either, by and large. Being permenantly on call for various violent or arduous tasks will give them little opportunity and being shoved into an all female military at a young age will likely steer their thoughts elsewhere.
However given that they are not emotionless and that it is not expressly forbidden, it can and does happen, much like the occasional techpriests who quite likes his food or her face or what have you.
Cannot comment on the lance discussion as I don't think I was involved with that, but I will, again, reiterate that using a source that is intended to be satirical of the setting, and the grim-darkness, and contains in-universe jokes about other Black Library books, authors and characters is, perhaps, not the best source for "canon" citations.
Where is it stated that Cain is satire of the 40k Universe rather than humour IN the 40k universe?
IIRC the same novel that has Cain at the scholam where he sees a Sororitas instructor having a relationship with a scribe is the novel
Spoiler:
with the student who Cain doesn't fully trust because he reminds him of himself and eventually a chaos psyker lord who has telepathic mind control.
Cain inevitably builds a rapport of sorts with the lad, but when he falls under mind control is forced to execute him.
He takes off his own sash and places it on the boys corpse, 'graduating him' symbolically post-mortem.
The mind control does not stop (phantom menace style) when the psyker is dealt with either, so Imperial forces are forced to gun down once loyal comrades and sisters of battle.
Real light-hearted, funny stuff.
You are confusing Cain's sense of humour and Vail's sarcasm with the subject matter. If you lived through the grim darkness of the 41st millennium you would need a coping mechanism and humour is as good as any.
The series occasionally ribs other author's more 'gritty' works with the Ghosts famous battle cry being derided as melodrama (a fair point) but it never crosses into making fun of the universe itself.
Cain as 'sensible commissar' has not prevented him from executing two guardsmen under his direct command which is more than Gaunt has done. I'm aware Gaunt went grimdark on some PDF once and he killed his Uncle, but I think Hark has killed more Ghosts than Gaunt.
Yeah, that's satire in, and of, 40k. Even when the enemy is dead, you still get killed. Welcome to Grimdark grimdark. It's actually pretty funny, because it *is* so grimdark. The books are not meant to be taken at all seriously.
ThePrimordial wrote: So obviously it happens.
Sisters are still human, and the lure of another pious warrior can sometimes prove to be too much. Whether it be simply to sate urges, or if it actually results in Kinship, the reasoning is the same.
My questions are:
1. How is this typically viewed within an order? Is it heresy or simply looked down upon.
2. How often does this happen?
I admire the OP for coming straight out of nowhere with a question about sexy times. +1 from me.
1)
I suppose the answer would be whether or not the Ecclisiarchy looks down on sex. You might assume they would because they're religious but then so were the celts yet they believed that sex brought you closer to their gods. Probably the ecclsiarchy is just as strict as crusade era christianity, but regardless though, I highly doubt that even if the ecclsiarchy was sexually open that sisters would be afforded that privalege. Sex would get in the way of their roles, and sexual fustration is a pretty effective way of keeping your soldiers overly aggresive. Plus you want them to appear to Guardsmen and the 'common folk' as angels, an image which doesn't work when they're doing it day and night.
Most likely the orders will react to it on a case by case basis. If two sisters get caught engaging in proffesional misconduct in the showers they'll be made to run around the yard 100 times or fast for a few days. If they caught with Johnny Guardsmen however they'll probably be on a one way course to the repentia.
2)
Well, they were raised in a church funded, military-run orphanage, so the chances of them not being sexually abused throughout their childhood and teens is considerably low. In additon they're brainwashed to be psychopathic and hate filled killers by an oppresive regime. If they do have sex, it's probably not going to be an enjoyable experience for anyone involved. Less passion filled romps and more crying and panic attacks.
Cannot comment on the lance discussion as I don't think I was involved with that, but I will, again, reiterate that using a source that is intended to be satirical of the setting, and the grim-darkness, and contains in-universe jokes about other Black Library books, authors and characters is, perhaps, not the best source for "canon" citations.
Where is it stated that Cain is satire of the 40k Universe rather than humour IN the 40k universe?
IIRC the same novel that has Cain at the scholam where he sees a Sororitas instructor having a relationship with a scribe is the novel
Spoiler:
with the student who Cain doesn't fully trust because he reminds him of himself and eventually a chaos psyker lord who has telepathic mind control.
Cain inevitably builds a rapport of sorts with the lad, but when he falls under mind control is forced to execute him.
He takes off his own sash and places it on the boys corpse, 'graduating him' symbolically post-mortem.
The mind control does not stop (phantom menace style) when the psyker is dealt with either, so Imperial forces are forced to gun down once loyal comrades and sisters of battle.
Real light-hearted, funny stuff.
You are confusing Cain's sense of humour and Vail's sarcasm with the subject matter. If you lived through the grim darkness of the 41st millennium you would need a coping mechanism and humour is as good as any.
The series occasionally ribs other author's more 'gritty' works with the Ghosts famous battle cry being derided as melodrama (a fair point) but it never crosses into making fun of the universe itself.
Cain as 'sensible commissar' has not prevented him from executing two guardsmen under his direct command which is more than Gaunt has done. I'm aware Gaunt went grimdark on some PDF once and he killed his Uncle, but I think Hark has killed more Ghosts than Gaunt.
Love this post - exactly reflects my view of the Cain novels -they have both humour and genuine darkness - a combination which makes the latter more effective IMO - Cain finds the sight of vans full of criminals being driven to scholam to be used as target and exectution practice by the children there as comforting in its familiarity.
One minor thing - The Sisters in that novel
Spoiler:
are not killed by non mind cotnrolled forces - they commit suicide
I agree. I don't think they would either, by and large. Being permenantly on call for various violent or arduous tasks will give them little opportunity and being shoved into an all female military at a young age will likely steer their thoughts elsewhere.
However given that they are not emotionless and that it is not expressly forbidden, it can and does happen, much like the occasional techpriests who quite likes his food or her face or what have you.
I'm sorry but I don't agree with your interpretation of them as paladins. I see them as nuns. I'm afraid my interpretation of them is not going to change either.
But to clarify, I do acknowledge the validity of the Cain novels on the whole issue. I just think it's a piece of bad writing and I don't like it. I do think that as essentially Space Nuns they should have a vow of chastity of some sorts. Or at least that's how I would write the Sororitas.
"I'm going to hide my shame behind a hood and betray and kill everyone who finds out that my ancestors did something wrong" is not in any way repentant behaviour! They're not atoning, they're trying to pretend it never happened!
GoonBandito wrote:
I think she means a Loyalist chapter
No, I would accept a traitor chapter too, if they actually were regretful and trying to atone. The closest, I think, is the Imperial Fists - but in the Fists' case, it really is a case of potential Slaaneshi corruption as they are "over-eager" to use the Pain Glove without a reason ever being actually given.
Ashiraya wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote: Just another reason to discard Blood of Martyrs as the steaming pile of grox dung that it is.
BoM is the FFG written, GW approved, reference/splat book on the Eccelesiarchy in General and SoB in specific, for DH 1st Ed
"GW Approved", yeah... like that means anyone at GW even read it, rather than just handing FFG the licence and telling them when their royalty cheque is due.
BaronIveagh wrote:
As opposed to such gems as James Swallow's books (which is more important, saving the souls of a planet, or a city?)? or do you prefer Matt Ward's 'snufftide' of work?
The worst part about Swallows' books isn't that Miriya is a special snowflake - it's that her bosses know she's a rogue, and they still support her actions and reward her for things that should see her in the Repentia.
BaronIveagh wrote:At least in BoM they're both competent (occasionally very much so) and capable of winning without IG or SM holding their hands. I know the appearance of reasonable, humanlike people in the 40k setting might offend some purists who prefer to believe that all trains in the IoM run on steam engines powered by babies being burned alive, but the idea that 'Hey, I inherited a warrant of trade, why the feth am I living like this'? might enter someone's mind. I mean, there's still the aspect where Cardinal Cockblockalus screams 'Sacred Cheezy Poofs!" and proceeds to kill a few million people in the Holy War of Determining If There Should Be An Apostrophe In the Title of "Drusus Guide To Sacred Gardening Vol XXXXI'.
Seriously? Are we even talking about the same book?
BoM makes a special note of the fact that the Sisters are badass enough to fight "renegade guard and sometimes even Orks!"
Sometimes even orks?! What the actual hell? Regular Guardsmen fight orks all the time, and you're saying that a Sister has to be especially specially awesome to take them on?
The main problem with the Sister who inherits a Letter of Marque is that if her faith and devotion to the Sisterhood was that weak, she would never have made it past Novice - and she certainly wouldn't be Faithful enough to receive the Emperor's blessings.
BaronIveagh wrote:I grant, the CRUNCH in it leaves a lot to be desired, and 2nd ed is much improved, but the fluff was much better and more in depth on the Eccelisiarchy in General and SoB in specific than anything offered in a codex for years.
... The book demands that Battle Sisters have to earn their helmets in battle. That's just stupid. It also directly contradicts the direct fluff statement in previous books that Sororitas power armour offers the same degree of protection as Astartes power armour, by giving them what basically amounts to "battery powered masterwork light power armour", instead of the fusion-powered full war plate it's supposed to be.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Ashiraya wrote: Because you can't decide what is isn't excusable by saying 'it's just stylistic'?
Yeah you can. “Faster than the eye can follow” is pretty clearly stylistic, not some scientific accurate measurement, and anyone that does not have a direct interest in not understanding it correctly will understand so .
Faster than the eye can follow isn't hard. I can move my hand faster than the eye can follow, the human eye is pretty crap at tracking rapid movement.
BaronIveagh wrote:
Gobbla wrote: Where do we find and example in the background of a Sister of Battle having an intimate relationship?
Cain's Last Stand, which is where we get a flat out statement that sisters do not take a vow of chastity. Though it's rare enough that Cain is surprised.
Daemonifuge, but that could could be considered questionable, as it ends in daemon possession. Sister was apparently sleeping with a Navigator.
I believe it's pretty obvious when you actually read it that both the Sister who attempts to murder Ephrael at the beginning, and the one who seduced the navigator, were actually daemons in disguise all along. Especially since they're visually identical even though Ephrael rips the first one out of its skinsuit long before the second one appears.
Actually you can still track an object that's moving like a blur, it's even how your peripheral vision works by responding to blurry things in the corner of your eyes. The hard-cap for the processing speed of data captured by the eye and sent to the brain is thirteen milliseconds. Anything faster than that will be largely imperceptible.
Or would if it didn't take several hours with a blowtorch to get a GW sales rep to admit they sell other armies besides several types of palette swapped space marines.
Or would if it didn't take several hours with a blowtorch to get a GW sales rep to admit they sell other armies besides several types of palette swapped space marines.
They are going to milk their cash cow for all its worth. I feel bad for the Sororitas. They've got a different side of the Imperium we never really get to see.
Gobbla wrote: If we believe Space Marines are chaste, pure, and above desire.
They aren't. They're mostly a bunch of thugs who have been turned into a bunch of abhuman freaks.
Lolwut? Are you calling the Ultrasmurfs, Roman Legionnaires in space, thugs? You're calling the highly disciplined siege masters of the Imperial Fists "thugs"? The noblebright Salamnders, renowned for how much value they place on human life, are " thugs"? Yes, that totally tracks, no illogical nonsense there at all!
Gobbla wrote: If we believe Space Marines are chaste, pure, and above desire.
They aren't. They're mostly a bunch of thugs who have been turned into a bunch of abhuman freaks.
Lolwut? Are you calling the Ultrasmurfs, Roman Legionnaires in space, thugs? You're calling the highly disciplined siege masters of the Imperial Fists "thugs"? The noblebright Salamnders, renowned for how much value they place on human life, are " thugs"? Yes, that totally tracks, no illogical nonsense there at all!
The initiates, before they get turned into Space Marines by the freakish genetic mutation of the gene-seed implants, are often little more than thugs.
Gobbla wrote: If we believe Space Marines are chaste, pure, and above desire.
They aren't. They're mostly a bunch of thugs who have been turned into a bunch of abhuman freaks.
Lolwut? Are you calling the Ultrasmurfs, Roman Legionnaires in space, thugs? You're calling the highly disciplined siege masters of the Imperial Fists "thugs"? The noblebright Salamnders, renowned for how much value they place on human life, are " thugs"? Yes, that totally tracks, no illogical nonsense there at all!
The initiates, before they get turned into Space Marines by the freakish genetic mutation of the gene-seed implants, are often little more than thugs.
Are you talking about the Night Lords? Because they stopped being regular SM back oin 30k. Or are you talking about the rare Carcharadon-like Chapter, which are infamous for being filthy scrubs, and make up a minority of mentioned SM Chapters?
That is not completely different from not having sex, and I stand by my previous point that I don't think this makes people more aggressive. No more than depriving them of any other pleasure/luxury.
Furyou Miko wrote: Sororitas are the Marines cooler, more badass little sisters.
They embody something completely different from what the marines do.
Gobbla wrote: If we believe Space Marines are chaste, pure, and above desire.
They aren't. They're mostly a bunch of thugs who have been turned into a bunch of abhuman freaks.
Lolwut? Are you calling the Ultrasmurfs, Roman Legionnaires in space, thugs? You're calling the highly disciplined siege masters of the Imperial Fists "thugs"? The noblebright Salamnders, renowned for how much value they place on human life, are " thugs"? Yes, that totally tracks, no illogical nonsense there at all!
I was thinking of the Blood Angels, although it seems they've scaled them back since the last time I read about their recruitment methods.
Gobbla wrote: If we believe Space Marines are chaste, pure, and above desire.
They aren't. They're mostly a bunch of thugs who have been turned into a bunch of abhuman freaks.
Lolwut? Are you calling the Ultrasmurfs, Roman Legionnaires in space, thugs? You're calling the highly disciplined siege masters of the Imperial Fists "thugs"? The noblebright Salamnders, renowned for how much value they place on human life, are " thugs"? Yes, that totally tracks, no illogical nonsense there at all!
The initiates, before they get turned into Space Marines by the freakish genetic mutation of the gene-seed implants, are often little more than thugs.
Not the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Iron Hands, Salamanders, and likely many succesor chapters. They recruit distinguished children; nobles, champion warrior youths, or even volunteers.
Gobbla wrote: If we believe Space Marines are chaste, pure, and above desire.
They aren't. They're mostly a bunch of thugs who have been turned into a bunch of abhuman freaks.
Lolwut? Are you calling the Ultrasmurfs, Roman Legionnaires in space, thugs? You're calling the highly disciplined siege masters of the Imperial Fists "thugs"? The noblebright Salamnders, renowned for how much value they place on human life, are " thugs"? Yes, that totally tracks, no illogical nonsense there at all!
I was thinking of the Blood Angels, although it seems they've scaled them back since the last time I read about their recruitment methods.
I suppose that, if you consider ignorant tribesmen competing for the honor of serving the gods to be thugs, then Blood Angels are exactly that. I don't know, perhaps they used to write about BA differently in past Codices.
That is not completely different from not having sex, and I stand by my previous point that I don't think this makes people more aggressive. No more than depriving them of any other pleasure/luxury.
No, it is different.
Not having sex is simply when you're not having sex.
Sexual frustration is when you're irritated and angry because of it.
Not that sexual frustration will automatically make them more aggressive, but it can easily be abused to do so. Think about it from the Ecclisiarchy's perspective. You brainwash them into valuing chastity and purity, force them into celibacy from puberty, all while making them wear skin tight boob armor with corsets and high heels. They end up with a confused and repressive mindset. You then tell them them that the heretics and enemies you're sending them to kill are perverts and degenerates who sodomise and sleep with animals and blah, blah, blah... The sisters will be disgusted and more willing to kill them, doubly so as there's a literal chaos god of pleasure and sex. They think that by doing so they prove their own purity and repent for their sexual desires, so they'll be far more committed to the task.
That is not completely different from not having sex, and I stand by my previous point that I don't think this makes people more aggressive. No more than depriving them of any other pleasure/luxury.
No, it is different.
Not having sex is simply when you're not having sex.
Sexual frustration is when you're irritated and angry because of it.
Not that sexual frustration will automatically make them more aggressive, but it can easily be abused to do so. Think about it from the Ecclisiarchy's perspective. You brainwash them into valuing chastity and purity, force them into celibacy from puberty, all while making them wear skin tight boob armor with corsets and high heels. They end up with a confused and repressive mindset. You then tell them them that the heretics and enemies you're sending them to kill are perverts and degenerates who sodomise and sleep with animals and blah, blah, blah... The sisters will be disgusted and more willing to kill them, doubly so as there's a literal chaos god of pleasure and sex. They think that by doing so they prove their own purity and repent for their sexual desires, so they'll be far more committed to the task.
Smokeycrisp wrote: They think that by doing so they prove their own purity and repent for their sexual desires, so they'll be far more committed to the task.
On the slip side of that though, they fail even a little and it's a feedback loop leading to Sisters of Slaanesh, since, clearly, by inadvertently reading the text as 'open' instead of 'upon', they're damned for all time.
*snaps fingers* that's your cue, noise marines.
In all honesty, looking over the mini line, One can kinda understand why FFG might think there's a shortage of helmets, and that only important people get them.
Smokeycrisp wrote: making them wear skin tight boob armor with corsets and high heels.
Huh? SoB wear power armor. The "corsets" are cloth/leather covers over a "tight boob armor" ceramite torso, and the high heels are seen only in a Blanche painting. He seems to have some fetish for women in high heels.
Smokeycrisp wrote: making them wear skin tight boob armor with corsets and high heels.
Huh? SoB wear power armor. The "corsets" are cloth/leather covers over a "tight boob armor" ceramite torso, and the high heels are seen only in a Blanche painting. He seems to have some fetish for women in high heels.
Blanche had a fetish for everyone in high heels, it's really not limited to just the women, lol.
Smokeycrisp wrote: Not having sex is simply when you're not having sex. Sexual frustration is when you're irritated and angry because of it.
How do you make Sisters into being irritated and angry because of not having sex, instead of, I don't know, sad and depressed because of not having sex? Also how is “irritable” a quality for a soldier? Wouldn't you rather look for “dedicated”?
Smokeycrisp wrote: Think about it from the Ecclisiarchy's perspective. You brainwash them into valuing chastity and purity, force them into celibacy from puberty, all while making them wear skin tight boob armor with corsets and high heels.
The high heels were on one illustration. Only ONE illustration. It's time to just LET IT GO. The Sisters DON'T wear high heels. And the armor ain't skin tight:
Smokeycrisp wrote: Think about it from the Ecclisiarchy's perspective. You brainwash them into valuing chastity and purity, force them into celibacy from puberty, all while making them wear skin tight boob armor with corsets and high heels.
The high heels were on one illustration. Only ONE illustration. It's time to just LET IT GO. The Sisters DON'T wear high heels.
And the armor ain't skin tight:
Fair enough on the high heels, but in my defence there are plenty of official artwork used by GW where the armor is absurdly thin, eg:
Smokeycrisp wrote: Not having sex is simply when you're not having sex.
Sexual frustration is when you're irritated and angry because of it.
How do you make Sisters into being irritated and angry because of not having sex, instead of, I don't know, sad and depressed because of not having sex? Also how is “irritable” a quality for a soldier? Wouldn't you rather look for “dedicated”?
Isn't being angry and hating the heretic the Sisters whole thing? And irritability is more of an unfortunate side effect. As long as it doesn't get in the way the Ecclisiarchy won't care, and if it does they get threatened with the repentia programme, and they quickly fall back in line.
I should clarify though that all this is merely a hypothetical of why the Ecclisiarchy might want them to remain celibate.
Smokeycrisp wrote: Fair enough on the high heels, but in my defence there are plenty of official artwork used by GW where the armor is absurdly thin, eg:
I know .
Smokeycrisp wrote: Isn't being angry and hating the heretic the Sisters whole thing? And irritability is more of an unfortunate side effect.
Well, hating the heretics kind of is. But the Sisters are not angry marines. You can have calm, collected, cold-hearted hate, or flaming, raging hate, or any kind of hate in between. I guess you could possibly even have Sisters that love the heretics and just want to purge them in a terribly violent fashion for their own good. And get them to repent through torture before, because they are so willing to go the extra mile for them.
ThePrimordial wrote: So obviously it happens.
Sisters are still human, and the lure of another pious warrior can sometimes prove to be too much. Whether it be simply to sate urges, or if it actually results in Kinship, the reasoning is the same.
My questions are:
1. How is this typically viewed within an order? Is it heresy or simply looked down upon.
2. How often does this happen?
You put normal not gene altered humans like astartes together for an extended period of time and things are gonna happen no matter how much they are brain washed.
You can somewhat suppress human urges but never completly do away with them.
Smokeycrisp wrote: Isn't being angry and hating the heretic the Sisters whole thing? And irritability is more of an unfortunate side effect.
Well, hating the heretics kind of is. But the Sisters are not angry marines. You can have calm, collected, cold-hearted hate, or flaming, raging hate, or any kind of hate in between. I guess you could possibly even have Sisters that love the heretics and just want to purge them in a terribly violent fashion for their own good. And get them to repent through torture before, because they are so willing to go the extra mile for them.
Sisters, grimdarking your stuff since the 90s ^^.
True, after all the Order of the bloody rose is supposed to be the overly aggressive ones while the Sacred Rose are the calms ones. If they get another codex (probably ten years from now) Id like to see a lot more on the differences between the orders, perhaps they each have differing views and rules on celibacy?
Smokeycrisp wrote: Isn't being angry and hating the heretic the Sisters whole thing? And irritability is more of an unfortunate side effect.
Well, hating the heretics kind of is. But the Sisters are not angry marines. You can have calm, collected, cold-hearted hate, or flaming, raging hate, or any kind of hate in between. I guess you could possibly even have Sisters that love the heretics and just want to purge them in a terribly violent fashion for their own good. And get them to repent through torture before, because they are so willing to go the extra mile for them.
Sisters, grimdarking your stuff since the 90s ^^.
True, after all the Order of the bloody rose is supposed to be the overly aggressive ones while the Sacred Rose are the calms ones. If they get another codex (probably ten years from now) Id like to see a lot more on the differences between the orders, perhaps they each have differing views and rules on celibacy?
Then againThe order of the Bloody Rose uses agressive tactics. It doesn't say anything about how agressive or hateful are the Sister. In Fantasy Flight Games, the Sisters are described as being filled with clarity and purpose and not hate on the battlefield unlike the Frateris Militia. In Hammer and Andvil, the Necron Lord recognise them for their strange unity, droning chants and calm. They are so faithful and well endoctrinated that they don't need to express and reinforce their religious beliefs by opposing, hating if you prefer, those who are opposed to them like heretics or mutants. They are completly self assured in their belief. They purge the ennemies of mankind because it's their duty. Hate and disgust are psychological mechanism to protect yourself from things that threaten you. That's why in real life the most stringent opponents to things like homosexuality or drugs are frequently cougth with male prostitute doing coke (the true story of Ted Haggard and Larry Craig). Rabid hatred is more of a sign of a vacillating faith or strong temptation than strength. Sisters are so hard to corrupt because they don't even feel threaten/tempted by the power of Chaos, thus crystallizing their faith on hatred of the ennemy is pointless. At least that's my two cents, but feel free to have as much rage filled Sisters as you want in your head canon.
Smokeycrisp wrote: Isn't being angry and hating the heretic the Sisters whole thing? And irritability is more of an unfortunate side effect.
Well, hating the heretics kind of is. But the Sisters are not angry marines. You can have calm, collected, cold-hearted hate, or flaming, raging hate, or any kind of hate in between. I guess you could possibly even have Sisters that love the heretics and just want to purge them in a terribly violent fashion for their own good. And get them to repent through torture before, because they are so willing to go the extra mile for them.
Sisters, grimdarking your stuff since the 90s ^^.
True, after all the Order of the bloody rose is supposed to be the overly aggressive ones while the Sacred Rose are the calms ones. If they get another codex (probably ten years from now) Id like to see a lot more on the differences between the orders, perhaps they each have differing views and rules on celibacy?
Then againThe order of the Bloody Rose uses agressive tactics. It doesn't say anything about how agressive or hateful are the Sister. In Fantasy Flight Games, the Sisters are described as being filled with clarity and purpose and not hate on the battlefield unlike the Frateris Militia. In Hammer and Andvil, the Necron Lord recognise them for their strange unity, droning chants and calm. They are so faithful and well endoctrinated that they don't need to express and reinforce their religious beliefs by opposing, hating if you prefer, those who are opposed to them like heretics or mutants. They are completly self assured in their belief. They purge the ennemies of mankind because it's their duty. Hate and disgust are psychological mechanism to protect yourself from things that threaten you. That's why in real life the most stringent opponents to things like homosexuality or drugs are frequently cougth with male prostitute doing coke (the true story of Ted Haggard and Larry Craig). Rabid hatred is more of a sign of a vacillating faith or strong temptation than strength. Sisters are so hard to corrupt because they don't even feel threaten/tempted by the power of Chaos, thus crystallizing their faith on hatred of the ennemy is pointless. At least that's my two cents, but feel free to have as much rage filled Sisters as you want in your head canon.
Then so be it, but does this mean they can bang or not? I'd argue no.
Real nuns remain celibate because they're the "brides of Christ" and to show their commitment to their relationship with God. Sisters of Battle may not be nuns exactly but if they share this belief that they're brides of the emperor and are completly self assured then it makes sense for them to share this reason for being celibate as well right?
godking wrote: You put normal not gene altered humans like astartes together for an extended period of time and things are gonna happen no matter how much they are brain washed.
Smokeycrisp wrote: . Sisters of Battle may not be nuns exactly but if they share this belief that they're brides of the emperor and are completly self assured then it makes sense for them to share this reason for being celibate as well right?
Except for, again, that idea would horrify them due to what Vandire did.
Real nuns remain celibate because they're the "brides of Christ" and to show their commitment to their relationship with God. Sisters of Battle may not be nuns exactly but if they share this belief that they're brides of the emperor and are completly self assured then it makes sense for them to share this reason for being celibate as well right?
They don't, though. They're explicitly not the Brides of the Emperor.
They are the Daughters of the Emperor.
The Brides of the Emperor was a heretical organisation that assisted a tyrant bring the entire Imperium to its knees.
BaronIveagh wrote: He's not wrong though. Look at the birth rates among nuns, if you really want to. There really is such a thing.
Now please, let us look together at how nuns are (and were) selected. Have you read this book?
Trust me, nuns were not really selected for their own will to be celibate (and/or kill the heretics).
Trust me, nuns were not really selected for their own will to be celibate (and/or kill the heretics).
Neither are Sororitas, (other than the heretics part). The celibate thing, assuming they even do (which I contest) would have to be drilled into them. Which has a surprisingly low rate of success on normal humans, along with actual brainwashing, even of a religious nature.
In real life, maybe. In 40K? It's super-effective. In addition to the Sororitas, we have the Storm Troopers, Inquisitors, Commissars and the Space Marines all subject to similar brain-washing and indoctrination. Of all of these, the least-stable are the Space Marines while the rest share, universally, the religious indoctrination of the Imperial Cult and fall to Chaos far less frequently than the Astartes do.
BaronIveagh wrote: Neither are Sororitas, (other than the heretics part).
That's not really true. Sisters are selected, among other things, for their faith. That's more than the Catholic convents can say. Or, I guess, any other example you can come with involving a surprisingly low rate of success, which typically involve forcing some kind of no-sex rule on the whole of the population rather than selecting individuals for which it might work…
BaronIveagh wrote: He's not wrong though. Look at the birth rates among nuns, if you really want to. There really is such a thing.
Now please, let us look together at how nuns are (and were) selected. Have you read this book?
Trust me, nuns were not really selected for their own will to be celibate (and/or kill the heretics).
And it's not like every religious organization enforces celibacy etc in real life either. When there's been religious organizations where monks can marry and get kids why not Sisters of battle...Since it's not even real but fictious even easier!
Smokeycrisp wrote: Isn't being angry and hating the heretic the Sisters whole thing? And irritability is more of an unfortunate side effect.
Well, hating the heretics kind of is. But the Sisters are not angry marines. You can have calm, collected, cold-hearted hate, or flaming, raging hate, or any kind of hate in between. I guess you could possibly even have Sisters that love the heretics and just want to purge them in a terribly violent fashion for their own good. And get them to repent through torture before, because they are so willing to go the extra mile for them.
Sisters, grimdarking your stuff since the 90s ^^.
True, after all the Order of the bloody rose is supposed to be the overly aggressive ones while the Sacred Rose are the calms ones. If they get another codex (probably ten years from now) Id like to see a lot more on the differences between the orders, perhaps they each have differing views and rules on celibacy?
Then againThe order of the Bloody Rose uses agressive tactics. It doesn't say anything about how agressive or hateful are the Sister. In Fantasy Flight Games, the Sisters are described as being filled with clarity and purpose and not hate on the battlefield unlike the Frateris Militia. In Hammer and Andvil, the Necron Lord recognise them for their strange unity, droning chants and calm. They are so faithful and well endoctrinated that they don't need to express and reinforce their religious beliefs by opposing, hating if you prefer, those who are opposed to them like heretics or mutants. They are completly self assured in their belief. They purge the ennemies of mankind because it's their duty. Hate and disgust are psychological mechanism to protect yourself from things that threaten you. That's why in real life the most stringent opponents to things like homosexuality or drugs are frequently cougth with male prostitute doing coke (the true story of Ted Haggard and Larry Craig). Rabid hatred is more of a sign of a vacillating faith or strong temptation than strength. Sisters are so hard to corrupt because they don't even feel threaten/tempted by the power of Chaos, thus crystallizing their faith on hatred of the ennemy is pointless. At least that's my two cents, but feel free to have as much rage filled Sisters as you want in your head canon.
Then so be it, but does this mean they can bang or not? I'd argue no.
Real nuns remain celibate because they're the "brides of Christ" and to show their commitment to their relationship with God. Sisters of Battle may not be nuns exactly but if they share this belief that they're brides of the emperor and are completly self assured then it makes sense for them to share this reason for being celibate as well right?
The Sisters have rejected the idea they are the Bride of the Emperor after they turned against Vandire. They call themselves the Daughters of the Emperor now (like they did in their early days on their homeworld). Thus they aren't symbolically married to the God-Emperor they see themselves as his favored children. Thus, they aren't prevented to develop carnal relationship in this fashion. Their ability to develop carnal relationship is held in check by three things in my opinion. The first is their lifestyle, the second is the penitent nature of their Orders and the third is standard military regulation (amatory relationship are usually forbidden in a strict hierarchical organisation to maintain that bond of trust and obidience intact). I would not consider its a capital offense should a Sister get cougth in such a situation, but it would probably be punished.
Smokeycrisp wrote: Not having sex is simply when you're not having sex.
Sexual frustration is when you're irritated and angry because of it.
How do you make Sisters into being irritated and angry because of not having sex, instead of, I don't know, sad and depressed because of not having sex? Also how is “irritable” a quality for a soldier? Wouldn't you rather look for “dedicated”?
Smokeycrisp wrote: Think about it from the Ecclisiarchy's perspective. You brainwash them into valuing chastity and purity, force them into celibacy from puberty, all while making them wear skin tight boob armor with corsets and high heels.
The high heels were on one illustration. Only ONE illustration. It's time to just LET IT GO. The Sisters DON'T wear high heels.
And the armor ain't skin tight:
It could be argued that the Dominions and Retributors wear heavier armor than the rank and file Battle-Sisters. Although I can't recall any hard canonical evidence to support that. It's just supposition on my part, inspired by the heavier armor seen in some artwork.
Psienesis wrote: In addition to the Sororitas, we have the Storm Troopers, Inquisitors, Commissars and the Space Marines all subject to similar brain-washing and indoctrination. Of all of these, the least-stable are the Space Marines while the rest share, universally, the religious indoctrination of the Imperial Cult and fall to Chaos far less frequently than the Astartes do.
Actually, since Inquisitors are in there, I'll say that it's actually less effective than in real life, considering the sheer number of Inquisitors who seem to end up embracing Chaos in one way or another. Storm troopers it's not so much that as the regular mind wipes tend to prevent chaos. And developing a personality. Commissars don't usually live long enough that this is a problem, although several BL novels have pointed out that it does happen, though rarely, that the commissar, and, thence, the regiment, go over to the ruinous powers.
Whole orders of Sisters have fallen to chaos.
Based on sheer numbers, if 1% of Commissars fall to the ruinous powers, then they've already gotten space marines beat.
Psienesis wrote: In real life, maybe. In 40K? It's super-effective. In addition to the Sororitas, we have the Storm Troopers, Inquisitors, Commissars and the Space Marines all subject to similar brain-washing and indoctrination. Of all of these, the least-stable are the Space Marines while the rest share, universally, the religious indoctrination of the Imperial Cult and fall to Chaos far less frequently than the Astartes do.
A assertion without evidence - at least in the case of the Stormtroopers, Inquisitors, and Commissars - and exaggerated for the Sororitas.
I even have a GW-produced traitor Commissar model. He was included in the Dark Vengeance set as a Cultist Champion, still wearing his uniform coat.
While I agree with you that stormtroopers, commissar and inquisitors don't have a much better record than Astartes when it comes to corruption, there is only a single Sister of Battle who ever fell to the power of Chaos (Miriael Sabathiel). There is mention of an Order of Dialogous Sister who fell to a greater Daemmon of Slaanseh in Daemonifuge, but even then not all of them were corrupted and those who were had been purged by their fellow Sister before their corruption could spread (at least so they thougth). Most of those Dialogous Sisters were transformed into a barely conscious ball of pain by the daemon when he escaped. They were, ironically, not corrupted. They were still loyal to the Emperor and even give the main character clues as to who is the threat. In resume, only a single Sister fell to Chaos though a few non millitant might have and other might have been possessed (some even after their bodily deaths). Plus, when assessing the corruptibility of a group, you always take proportion into account, not raw numbers. If you count the Horus Heresy, Astartes have a worst record for loyalty than the Imperial Guard/Army (but much better if you exclude it). All in all, 40K Astartes are very loyal, but turn traitor much more often than Sisters and maybe even Scions.
Yeah I was not aware of any in the fluff - we have one who fell in the CCG and one who is dubious in the comics - that's it?
There have been some Sisters that have been mind controlled and not a few that have suffered mutation or physical corruption (all against their will) but just the one that has been said to fall (after years of torture IIRC - although sisters on Vraks did not break having suffered in the same way)
BaronIveagh wrote: Based on sheer numbers, if 51% of Commissars fall to the ruinous powers, then they've already gotten space marines beat.
Fixed it for you .
oldravenman3025 wrote: It could be argued that the Dominions and Retributors wear heavier armor than the rank and file Battle-Sisters. Although I can't recall any hard canonical evidence to support that. It's just supposition on my part, inspired by the heavier armor seen in some artwork.
The artwork is just inconsistent, that's all.
This fair lady is not a retributor or a dominion, because those units did not even exist at the time she was drawn:
Yeah I was not aware of any in the fluff - we have one who fell in the CCG and one who is dubious in the comics - that's it?
Just a note - that's one sister, not one order. Ephrael Stern never fell to Chaos either - she had Slaanesh's true name stuffed into her head and she remained loyal, although the Canoness of the Order of Our Martyred LAdy herself told her to go into hiding after a power-hungry Inquisitor declared her corrupted, not because she had fallen to chaos, but simply so he could drag her away to perform experiments on her.
My demand for a name was somewhat facetious: The closest an 'order' of Battle Sisters as ever come to falling was the purging of the Order of the Piercing Thorn, who committed suicide when they realised that the physical corruption was starting to affect their minds in the backstory to Death of Antagonis.
The Order of Sisters from Madasa is never named in fluff, but fall to the warp in the person of one of Abaddon's servants. (Cain's Last Stand)
The Order of the Blessed Enquiry on Parnis. (Daemonifuge)
The Order of the White Rose on Periremunda could also be argued to have fallen to the Warp, though in truth they were following the orders of a Radical inquisitor, killing their fellow imperials. Not that it mattered, they were all eaten by nids post haste. (Duty Calls)
The Sisterhood of Sorrowed Matrons were purged by Inquisitor Gelt aboard the hulk of the Merciful Saint, a hospital ship turned nightmare abattoir. (Creatures Anathema)
Special mention goes to:
Miriael Sabathiel, formerly a Sister-Superior of the Order of Our Martyred Lady not only willingly turned to chaos herself but also 'converted' a whole mission of Order of the Argent Shroud to the worship of the Prince of Pleasure when they attempted purge her. ("The Invitation," by Dan Abnett IIRC, and the CCG)
The Order of the Blessed Enquiry did not fall - they were tortured and turned into a giant ball of flesh, but they stayed loyal, if you actually read the comic.
The example in Cain's Last Stand has already been discussed: They were mind-controlled, and then suicided when the mind control was released and they were able to make decisions or act according to their own desires and natures. Again, not actually fallen.
The White Rose believed they were doing the Emperor's will. That's loyalty, not treachery.
Mirael I will give you, but as I said - she's one sister, far from a whole order, and as for the Argent Shroud, it was three sisters and a bounty hunter - and the sisters were killed, they did not fall.
Creatures Anathema is a Dark Heresy book, and it's been shown repeatedly that Dark Heresy first edition hasn't got a fricken clue about the Sisterhood.
Furyou Miko wrote: The Order of the Blessed Enquiry did not fall - they were tortured and turned into a giant ball of flesh, but they stayed loyal, if you actually read the comic..
I did. The majority of them fell (or are your blinders so good that you missed the corrupted sisters showing up with the Keeper when it showed up to fight Hand?) I'll dig out my copy, but I'm fairly sure they even mention that the majority of the sisters fell, but I'd have to find it first.
Furyou Miko wrote: The example in Cain's Last Stand has already been discussed: They were mind-controlled, and then suicided when the mind control was released and they were able to make decisions or act according to their own desires and natures. .
No they didn't, you guys keep repeating that, but only two of them killed themselves, read the book. Even after the control was lifted with his death, the majority of them kept right on fighting for Chaos.
Furyou Miko wrote: Creatures Anathema is a Dark Heresy book, and it's been shown repeatedly that Dark Heresy first edition hasn't got a fricken clue about the Sisterhood.
So, to sum up your rebuttal: "No, because I don't like that source'.
BaronIveagh wrote: I did. The majority of them fell (or are your blinders so good that you missed the corrupted sisters showing up with the Keeper when it showed up to fight Hand?) I'll dig out my copy, but I'm fairly sure they even mention that the majority of the sisters fell, but I'd have to find it first.
There were no corrupted sisters in that scene. There are a lot of daemons, some of which have trophies in the form of fragments of power armour, though. Perhaps you're the confused one?
No they didn't, you guys keep repeating that, but only two of them killed themselves, read the book. Even after the control was lifted with his death, the majority of them kept right on fighting for Chaos.
Suicide by guardsman is still suicide. They would have won if they'd wanted to.
BaronIveagh wrote: So, to sum up your rebuttal: "No, because I don't like that source'.
DH 1e walks like a quack and ducks like a quack, I'll call it a quack.
Furyou Miko wrote: and as for the Argent Shroud, it was three sisters and a bounty hunter - and the sisters were killed, they did not fall.
I'm still digging for a source, but fluff seems to mention her leading fallen sisters to defile a shrine world: successfully, which is what brought her to being a Champion of Slaanesh.
From my own copy of Daemonifuge only a small, but still significant portion, were corrupted by the knowledge in question and they were killed by their Sisters as I mention in my post above. The other were transformed into a fleshcontruct by the daemon. As for the daemons fighting with the Keeper of Secret, it's hard to tell if they are anything else but generic possessed/daemons (one of them weild a reaper autocanon). He does call them his «daughters» one can think they are daemon disguised as Sisters of Battle since the order he had dealings with was a Dialogous Order. They don't have power armors and very little weapons besides a few swords and bolt pistols so it can't really be them. We can imagine that since they are daemons they can take the form of corrupted SoB to make themselves look more threatening or disgusting.
As for the Last Stand, if I am not mistaken it's not an entire Order of Sisters who gets mind control, but a commandery (but that's mostly nitpicking). Doesn't it also mention that Varan's death didn't broke his mind control spell? I don't own the book and doesn't remember really well, but the lexicanum entry for the book does mention the fact that the spell wasn't completly broken by the death of the main villain.
Suicide by guardsman is still suicide. They would have won if they'd wanted to.
They were, very effectively, too, until Deus Ex Necrons.
From Cain's Last Stand:
(note this takes place after Varan is already dead)
"The enemy were surging forward now, suppressing our defenses with withering amounts of fire, and would be in position to make a final assault any minute. In fact, if these had been run-of-the-mill Chaotics, instead of using their heads like soldiers, they'd have probably started already, which would at least have allowed us to whittle them down a bit as they charged our guns. "
Further, Cain is taking cover while a pair of heavy bolter servitors try to suppress the enemy advance.
"A second or so later both constructs went silent, all but torn apart by a blizzard of bolter fire, and my heart turned to ice. ... A solid wave of of corrupted Sisters was advancing on our position, at least three full squads emerging from the early morning half light, and I knew we didn't have a hope in hell of stopping them. Come to that, I doubted we'd even be able to slow them down."
So, no, they're very calmly tearing apart the defenses, rather than berzerkly charging them.
There were no corrupted sisters in that scene. There are a lot of daemons, some of which have trophies in the form of fragments of power armour, though. Perhaps you're the confused one?
So, yes, the Order lost 'many' sisters, though how many is kept vague.
Look, here we have fallen sisters.
These look a lot like the same fallen sisters we saw earlier. Notice the warpspawn in the bottom right panel, and then look at the one on page 2. It could be the very same sister, though slightly more corrupted.
So in Cain's Last Stand does it mention that the spell is broken after the death of the villain? If I am not mistaken only those close to the blank retain their free will and commit suicide, but for the other.
In all cases, we can say that a few hundred Sisters of various Order fell to Chaos in different circomstances. Some were tricked, other possessed or mind controlled and a very small few converted to Chaos. I don't think that if you were to count all those Sister they would amount to a thousand. Considering the largest organised group that ever fell was Mission which is actualy around 3 to 10 squads of Sisters that's not much. In Cain's Last Stand there is only 3 full squad of Sisters which means around 60 Sisters. The deamon/sisters aren't much more numerous in Daemonifuge and Miriael command at most 100 corrupted Sisters. Come to think of it, even if you are generous, it will be tough to reach 500 corrupted Sisters in the entire lore of 40K and we can still doubt about the willing nautre of their corruption.
I just realised we have completly derailed this thread. Maybe we should start a new one about how many Sisters have fallen to Chaos in a fashion or another. Come to think of it that's what I will do.
Psienesis wrote: In addition to the Sororitas, we have the Storm Troopers, Inquisitors, Commissars and the Space Marines all subject to similar brain-washing and indoctrination. Of all of these, the least-stable are the Space Marines while the rest share, universally, the religious indoctrination of the Imperial Cult and fall to Chaos far less frequently than the Astartes do.
Actually, since Inquisitors are in there, I'll say that it's actually less effective than in real life, considering the sheer number of Inquisitors who seem to end up embracing Chaos in one way or another. Storm troopers it's not so much that as the regular mind wipes tend to prevent chaos. And developing a personality. Commissars don't usually live long enough that this is a problem, although several BL novels have pointed out that it does happen, though rarely, that the commissar, and, thence, the regiment, go over to the ruinous powers.
Whole orders of Sisters have fallen to chaos.
Based on sheer numbers, if 1% of Commissars fall to the ruinous powers, then they've already gotten space marines beat.
No Order of Sisters has ever fallen to Chaos, unless you're including fanfic here.
You may not personally regard it as canon, but it's as valid as anything else published by Games Workshop. That's essentially what the GW canon policy is, an indifferent shrug. The players go with their personal interpretation of the 40k universe.
According to the current Codex, every order minoris has it's own doctrines. That would include yes/no on celibacy. I would say case closed, and it effectively depends on the order's Rule.
Except that none of your examples actually feature orders falling to chaos.
Ok, now that it's been corrected so that it makes sense...
No, Creatures Anathema is pretty specific about the order minoris Sisterhood of Sorrowed Matrons, though exactly what went on aboard the Merciful Saint before the point of view characters show up and start purging is unclear, though whatever had happened was 20 years in the past and led to the ship wrecking into an asteroid.. It's implied though that the origin of the warp-craft was the tech priests on board, but it spread to the Sisters.
The rather lurid descriptions of dead women and mad women assailing the penal squads with warp-craft and bronze maliflects are quite clear. Apparently even dead, they served the warp.
If they were dead, they were daemons in the false forms of Sisters.
If they were using psychic powers, the same - the Schola screens out all psykers and sends them to the black ships long before they would have a chance to be recruited as Sororitas.
Furyou Miko wrote: If they were dead, they were daemons in the false forms of Sisters.
If they were using psychic powers, the same - the Schola screens out all psykers and sends them to the black ships long before they would have a chance to be recruited as Sororitas.
Ok, one, we have another thread for this: two, there are ways to become a psyker that don't involve being one to start with. Three, the mechanicus can make you get up after you're dead even without daemons, though how much 'you' is left seems to very significantly.
Except that none of your examples actually feature orders falling to chaos.
Ok, now that it's been corrected so that it makes sense...
No, Creatures Anathema is pretty specific about the order minoris Sisterhood of Sorrowed Matrons, though exactly what went on aboard the Merciful Saint before the point of view characters show up and start purging is unclear, though whatever had happened was 20 years in the past and led to the ship wrecking into an asteroid.. It's implied though that the origin of the warp-craft was the tech priests on board, but it spread to the Sisters.
The rather lurid descriptions of dead women and mad women assailing the penal squads with warp-craft and bronze maliflects are quite clear. Apparently even dead, they served the warp.
I don't think the 'echanicus can bring people back from the dead per say. They can use your body, but your mind will be dead. A brain connection doesn't survive more than an hour or two after death. On another note, were they Sisters of Battle or Hospitalier? According to other pieces of lore, only one Sister of Battle ever fell willingly to the power of Chaos. If they are Hospitalier like the description seem to suggest this would not upset any previously mentionned lore (same thing for the Daemon Sisters in Daemonifuge who were Dialogous and not Sister Militant). On a other note is their mention of those corrupted Sisters having non platonic relationship? We know Miriael cannot have any since she is stuck in her armor and her snake poisonnous tongue might make first base a bit complicated. What about those on that hulk?
epronovost wrote: We know Miriael cannot have any since she is stuck in her armor and her snake poisonnous tongue might make first base a bit complicated.
I fail to see how any of this should be a problem…
Except that none of your examples actually feature orders falling to chaos.
Ok, now that it's been corrected so that it makes sense...
No, Creatures Anathema is pretty specific about the order minoris Sisterhood of Sorrowed Matrons, though exactly what went on aboard the Merciful Saint before the point of view characters show up and start purging is unclear, though whatever had happened was 20 years in the past and led to the ship wrecking into an asteroid.. It's implied though that the origin of the warp-craft was the tech priests on board, but it spread to the Sisters.
The rather lurid descriptions of dead women and mad women assailing the penal squads with warp-craft and bronze maliflects are quite clear. Apparently even dead, they served the warp.
I don't think the 'echanicus can bring people back from the dead per say. They can use your body, but your mind will be dead. A brain connection doesn't survive more than an hour or two after death. On another note, were they Sisters of Battle or Hospitalier? According to other pieces of lore, only one Sister of Battle ever fell willingly to the power of Chaos. If they are Hospitalier like the description seem to suggest this would not upset any previously mentionned lore (same thing for the Daemon Sisters in Daemonifuge who were Dialogous and not Sister Militant). On a other note is their mention of those corrupted Sisters having non platonic relationship? We know Miriael cannot have any since she is stuck in her armor and her snake poisonnous tongue might make first base a bit complicated. What about those on that hulk?
For a depraved mind like the Prince of Pleasure, being stuck in a suit of power armor only gives one new canvases for flesh-crafting.
(I know, they're told as memoirs, and memories can fade, but Cain's Last Stand is chronologically the last one; it's the most likely to be accurate as it's the story he recorded closest to the actual events). I took Sister Julien's keeping her affair secret to be because it was with a co-worker, not because it was wrong in itself, but 
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