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 Psienesis wrote:
"The purpose of life is to suffer" is basically a core tenet of the Sisterhood.

No, it's a core tenant of Slaanesh. Suffering for suffering's sake is not noble, it's self-destructive idiocy.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Gobbla wrote:
Sisters of Battle are based on our real, non-Militant nuns, who are the mold for the SoB's strict morality

Wrong, and this is probably where the problem is.

Culturally and militarily, SoB are based on religious orders militant, ie Knights Hospitaller, the Order of Santiago, etc with a lot of references to Joan of Arc thrown in. They have far more in common with the female members of the Order of Santiago or the Order of the Hatchet, or chevaleresses in general, than modern nuns.

OK, good to know.

How does this change anything about this discussion? The first thing that pops out of the latest SoB codex is the "Nuns with Guns" theme, and the "fanatical devotion" and "unwavering purity" as a"bulwark against corruption." Of course, modern nuns aren't fanatics, but the inspiration is there. Militarizing Sisters the 40K way might be more inline with those religious orders militant, but that don't change the commonality with modern nuns. Or, at least the interpretation presented by SoB's. And, it's not relevant to my point, which is fighters or not, the other non-militant orders would not necessarily be less fanatically devoted, or less unwaveringly pure.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
"The purpose of life is to suffer" is basically a core tenet of the Sisterhood.

No, it's a core tenant of Slaanesh. Suffering for suffering's sake is not noble, it's self-destructive idiocy.

IIRC the SoB don't see suffering for suffering's sake as a goal, but they do think everything worth doing is also worth suffering for.

If I understand it, the idea is that suffering is worthwhile because the Emperor suffers constantly and greatly for mankind, (it's a defining quality) and thus, when you suffer (particularly for a worthy cause), it brings you closer to the Emperor.

Warboss Gorhack wrote:
Clerical investiture is essentially a marriage TO God. To have a relationship with a human is to remove the divine from first place in one's loyalty and affections.

Stopping for a moment to go off on a bit of a tangent: It was one of tenants of the Temple of the Savior Emperor and was pretty much crushed with the Thorian Reformation, with Thor rather specifically re-branding Vandire's 'Brides of the Emperor'. Suggesting this sort of relationship between Sisters and the Emperor would mark one out within the Ecclesiarchy as a member of the Temple of the Savior Emperor.



Yes, yes it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gobbla wrote:
How does this change anything about this discussion? The first thing that pops out of the latest SoB codex is the "Nuns with Guns" theme, and the "fanatical devotion" and "unwavering purity" as a"bulwark against corruption." Of course, modern nuns aren't fanatics, but the inspiration is there. Militarizing Sisters the 40K way might be more inline with those religious orders militant, but that don't change the commonality with modern nuns. Or, at least the interpretation presented by SoB's. And, it's not relevant to my point, which is fighters or not, the other non-militant orders would not necessarily be less fanatically devoted, or less unwaveringly pure.

Chastity does not always equate spiritual Purity, nor has it always been a prerequisite for it. (For example, 'Chaste' [spiritually pure] and 'chastity' [the state of virginity] were not the same things in English until about 1600.)

The relevance is that the Rule of most orders militant is based in the real world situations, as opposed to the Rules of monastic orders greater focus on the spiritual. Our only specific source on it states that they do not take an Oath of Chastity. There are many more orders militant that do not require such an oath than ones that do. (Either directly or indirectly as an element of their Rule)

As far as how 'harsh' they have it, it sounds like a lot of you seem to think that this is borderline BSDM (Again, this is not the Temple of Slaaansh). \

There is no commonality with modern nuns (beyond the words 'abbess' and 'convent'). Joan of Arc. I watch people get beaten savagely with symbols tied to Joan of Arc, and all they seem to think is 'nuns'..

'Nuns with guns' has been a long running meme with sisters but it's also pretty far from the truth.

@Baronlveagh

The meme associated to SoB can be classified in two categories.

1) Jokes about them being nuns

2) Jokes about menstruation

It speaks volumes about what you casual fan knows about the army (and sometime women to be honest).

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Warboss Gorhack wrote:
Clerical investiture is essentially a marriage TO God. To have a relationship with a human is to remove the divine from first place in one's loyalty and affections.

Stopping for a moment to go off on a bit of a tangent: It was one of tenants of the Temple of the Emperor Ascendant and was pretty much crushed with the Thorian Reformation, with Thor rather specifically re-branding Vandire's 'Brides of the Emperor'.

What? Where is that from?
Not the rebranding, of course, the rest.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

What? Where is that from?
Not the rebranding, of course, the rest.

Ok, one, I mistyped and meant the Temple of the Savior Emperor, (the Temple of the Emperor Ascendant is the building on Armageddon where Grimaldus had his last stand).

The information is mostly from Disciples of the Dark Gods, combined with what's in Codex: Sisters of Battle and Codex: Witchhunters.

Vandire makes a big deal out of the Sisters and the nature of their relationship with the Emperor when he renames them the 'Brides of the Emperor' with all the connotations that comes along with that. Thor makes an equally serious point when he reverts them to their original name, as this rebukes Vandires view on what their relationship to the Emperor is.

The idea of being 'married to god' would actually be quite repellent to the average sister for that reason. Plus the fact that the inquisition has branded priests who reject Thor's reforms as heretics.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

What? Where is that from?
Not the rebranding, of course, the rest.

Ok, one, I mistyped and meant the Temple of the Savior Emperor, (the Temple of the Emperor Ascendant is the building on Armageddon where Grimaldus had his last stand).

The information is mostly from Disciples of the Dark Gods, combined with what's in Codex: Sisters of Battle and Codex: Witchhunters.

Vandire makes a big deal out of the Sisters and the nature of their relationship with the Emperor when he renames them the 'Brides of the Emperor' with all the connotations that comes along with that. Thor makes an equally serious point when he reverts them to their original name, as this rebukes Vandires view on what their relationship to the Emperor is.

The idea of being 'married to god' would actually be quite repellent to the average sister for that reason. Plus the fact that the inquisition has branded priests who reject Thor's reforms as heretics.

Vandire renamed the Daughters of the Emperor the Brides of the Emperor because he pictured himself has the «reincarnation» of the Emperor (or at least wanted people to believe he was. It's a bit unclear as to when he started to believe his own lies). He called them his Brides because he lusted over them and you can' lust over your children. Ironically, the Sisters of Battle refer to themselves as the Daughters of the Emperor, a link that was only used by the Primarchs before them (only them refer to the Emperor as a father) which is, in my opinion, an even closer and deeper bond. If I am not mistaken, the Sisters themselves abandonned the name of Brides to reclaim the one of Daughters after the event of the Golden Throne.

epronovost wrote:

Vandire renamed the Daughters of the Emperor the Brides of the Emperor because he pictured himself has the «reincarnation» of the Emperor (or at least wanted people to believe he was. It's a bit unclear as to when he started to believe his own lies).

However, the issue remain that he put this idea in people's heads. Regardless of why Vandire did it, the idea of being 'Wed to God' would be abhorrent to the Eccelsiarchy afterward, if only because of the association.

According to page 23 of Blood of Martyrs, Sisters leaving their orders entirely is not unknown, though for many the next destination of the Ordo Hereticus to become Inquisitors.

If you want a wild departure from type, at least one Cannoness has left her order to become a Rogue Trader.

Just another reason to discard Blood of Martyrs as the steaming pile of grox dung that it is.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
"The purpose of life is to suffer" is basically a core tenet of the Sisterhood.

No, it's a core tenant of Slaanesh. Suffering for suffering's sake is not noble, it's self-destructive idiocy.

Slaanesh isn't about suffering, he's about extremism. Anyway.

"The purpose of Life is to suffer" is a twofold paradigm to the Sisterhood.

Firstly, you have the precept that the Emperor suffers for all humanity, and by suffering, the Sisters are supporting the Emperor in that. As cleanliness is next to godliness, so suffering is divine.

Secondly, you have the fact that the Sisterhood are a penitent Order. They - especially the Order of the Valorous Heart - are driven by the need to atone for the Brides' actions during the Reign of Blood. The Sisterhoods' suffering is also penance for their sins.

(and I'd like to see a Space Marine who's willing to be held accountable for the Horus Heresy and still be repenting for it!)

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Just another reason to discard Blood of Martyrs as the steaming pile of grox dung that it is.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
"The purpose of life is to suffer" is basically a core tenet of the Sisterhood.

No, it's a core tenant of Slaanesh. Suffering for suffering's sake is not noble, it's self-destructive idiocy.

Slaanesh isn't about suffering, he's about extremism. Anyway.

"The purpose of Life is to suffer" is a twofold paradigm to the Sisterhood.

Firstly, you have the precept that the Emperor suffers for all humanity, and by suffering, the Sisters are supporting the Emperor in that. As cleanliness is next to godliness, so suffering is divine.

Secondly, you have the fact that the Sisterhood are a penitent Order. They - especially the Order of the Valorous Heart - are driven by the need to atone for the Brides' actions during the Reign of Blood. The Sisterhoods' suffering is also penance for their sins.

(and I'd like to see a Space Marine who's willing to be held accountable for the Horus Heresy and still be repenting for it!)

The Dark Angels?

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Just another reason to discard Blood of Martyrs as the steaming pile of grox dung that it is.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
"The purpose of life is to suffer" is basically a core tenet of the Sisterhood.

No, it's a core tenant of Slaanesh. Suffering for suffering's sake is not noble, it's self-destructive idiocy.

Slaanesh isn't about suffering, he's about extremism. Anyway.

"The purpose of Life is to suffer" is a twofold paradigm to the Sisterhood.

Firstly, you have the precept that the Emperor suffers for all humanity, and by suffering, the Sisters are supporting the Emperor in that. As cleanliness is next to godliness, so suffering is divine.

Secondly, you have the fact that the Sisterhood are a penitent Order. They - especially the Order of the Valorous Heart - are driven by the need to atone for the Brides' actions during the Reign of Blood. The Sisterhoods' suffering is also penance for their sins.

(and I'd like to see a Space Marine who's willing to be held accountable for the Horus Heresy and still be repenting for it!)

The Dark Angels?

I think she means a Loyalist chapter

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Just another reason to discard Blood of Martyrs as the steaming pile of grox dung that it is.

BS in an IG novel, who'd have thought.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
The information is mostly from Disciples of the Dark Gods, combined with what's in Codex: Sisters of Battle and Codex: Witchhunters.

I do not remember anything about this in those two last books. I have not read the first one though.

 Ashiraya wrote:

BS in an IG novel, who'd have thought.

BoM is the FFG written, GW approved, reference/splat book on the Eccelesiarchy in General and SoB in specific, for DH 1st Ed

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Just another reason to discard Blood of Martyrs as the steaming pile of grox dung that it is.

As opposed to such gems as James Swallow's books (which is more important, saving the souls of a planet, or a city?)? or do you prefer Matt Ward's 'snufftide' of work?

At least in BoM they're both competent (occasionally very much so) and capable of winning without IG or SM holding their hands. I know the appearance of reasonable, humanlike people in the 40k setting might offend some purists who prefer to believe that all trains in the IoM run on steam engines powered by babies being burned alive, but the idea that 'Hey, I inherited a warrant of trade, why the feth am I living like this'? might enter someone's mind. I mean, there's still the aspect where Cardinal Cockblockalus screams 'Sacred Cheezy Poofs!" and proceeds to kill a few million people in the Holy War of Determining If There Should Be An Apostrophe In the Title of "Drusus Guide To Sacred Gardening Vol XXXXI'.

I grant, the CRUNCH in it leaves a lot to be desired, and 2nd ed is much improved, but the fluff was much better and more in depth on the Eccelisiarchy in General and SoB in specific than anything offered in a codex for years.


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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

I do not remember anything about this in those two last books. I have not read the first one though.

The part about the Temple Tendency (as it's otherwise known) gives an interesting look at what happened to Vandire's side following the Reign of Blood.

I'll try to have a look at it, then, I guess. Even though I probably won't buy it, because I guess there is only a tiny portion of the book that will be about stuff I am interested in, and because, well, GW have lost any good-will I had toward them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, regarding thread title, I feel I need to point that Sisters almost exclusively have non-plastic relationships!!!

 BaronIveagh wrote:
BoM is the FFG written, GW approved, reference/splat book on the Eccelesiarchy in General and SoB in specific, for DH 1st Ed

If it's GW approved, that means it won't be BS? Are you sure? It would confirm Marines moving at superluminal speeds, which seems odd to me.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
"The purpose of life is to suffer" is basically a core tenet of the Sisterhood.

No, it's a core tenant of Slaanesh. Suffering for suffering's sake is not noble, it's self-destructive idiocy.

Slaanesh isn't about suffering, he's about extremism. Anyway.

Slaanesh is about experiencing sensation. The extremism is a means to an end - a search for new and exciting sensations when you've become jaded to more acceptable experiences.

 Ashiraya wrote:
It would confirm Marines moving at superluminal speeds, which seems odd to me.

Why do you insist on misunderstanding stylistic elements for actual scientific measurement?

Because you can't decide what is isn't excusable by saying 'it's just stylistic'? If they parry laser beams, then they parry laser beams!

As has been said Sisters aren't nuns.
Consider them Space Paladins- heavily armoured enforcers who recieve faith based power from their god to smite unbelievers .
There's some overlap, especially because the ecclesiarchy draws heavily from Catholicism for Gothic imagery. and because they are an all female order.

I subscribe to the Cain theory of Sororitas mating patterns: Its not forbidden but its so rare that they have both the inclination or opportunity that even Commissars who come from the same school assume there's a vow of chastity.

When not shooting the various enemies of mankind they work with missionaries and in medical orders etc and have plenty of exposure to laymen (or laywomen)

Of course it happens.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

epronovost wrote:

Vandire renamed the Daughters of the Emperor the Brides of the Emperor because he pictured himself has the «reincarnation» of the Emperor (or at least wanted people to believe he was. It's a bit unclear as to when he started to believe his own lies).

However, the issue remain that he put this idea in people's heads. Regardless of why Vandire did it, the idea of being 'Wed to God' would be abhorrent to the Eccelsiarchy afterward, if only because of the association.

According to page 23 of Blood of Martyrs, Sisters leaving their orders entirely is not unknown, though for many the next destination of the Ordo Hereticus to become Inquisitors.

If you want a wild departure from type, at least one Cannoness has left her order to become a Rogue Trader.

I don't think the Inquisition really count since they can reclaim anyone at their services. It does make sense that a Sister of Battle (or from a non-militant Order) to become a member of the Inquisition. It must be a very rare occurence since the Inquisition favors intelligence, strength of personality and independance as qualitites and let say that the you won't find those qualities in abundance in the ranks of the zealots. I don't think you will see any Sister departing her Order to live a «normal» imperial subject life. A Rogue Trader who was a former Sister is like a blue moon. If it happens it will probbly be the only exception or so since those titles are hereditary and Sisters are systematically orphans that had their memory wiped clean and their name changed. It would be possible for one to be traced back to a Rogue Trader family since they are nobles and their orphanned sons and daughters are thus sent to Scholam, but it would be extremely difficult to find the correct one, prove her identity as a descendant of the Rogue Trader family. I hope for that Rogue Trader dynastie that the former Cannoness was from a Famulus or has an excellent seneshal else they will go bankrupt pretty fast. At least she probably has good contact in the Ecclesiarchy.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Because you can't decide what is isn't excusable by saying 'it's just stylistic'?

Yeah you can. “Faster than the eye can follow” is pretty clearly stylistic, not some scientific accurate measurement, and anyone that does not have a direct interest in not understanding it correctly will understand so .

epronovost wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

epronovost wrote:

Vandire renamed the Daughters of the Emperor the Brides of the Emperor because he pictured himself has the «reincarnation» of the Emperor (or at least wanted people to believe he was. It's a bit unclear as to when he started to believe his own lies).

However, the issue remain that he put this idea in people's heads. Regardless of why Vandire did it, the idea of being 'Wed to God' would be abhorrent to the Eccelsiarchy afterward, if only because of the association.

According to page 23 of Blood of Martyrs, Sisters leaving their orders entirely is not unknown, though for many the next destination of the Ordo Hereticus to become Inquisitors.

If you want a wild departure from type, at least one Cannoness has left her order to become a Rogue Trader.

I don't think the Inquisition really count since they can reclaim anyone at their services. It does make sense that a Sister of Battle (or from a non-militant Order) to become a member of the Inquisition. It must be a very rare occurence since the Inquisition favors intelligence, strength of personality and independance as qualitites and let say that the you won't find those qualities in abundance in the ranks of the zealots. I don't think you will see any Sister departing her Order to live a «normal» imperial subject life. A Rogue Trader who was a former Sister is like a blue moon. If it happens it will probbly be the only exception or so since those titles are hereditary and Sisters are systematically orphans that had their memory wiped clean and their name changed. It would be possible for one to be traced back to a Rogue Trader family since they are nobles and their orphanned sons and daughters are thus sent to Scholam, but it would be extremely difficult to find the correct one, prove her identity as a descendant of the Rogue Trader family. I hope for that Rogue Trader dynastie that the former Cannoness was from a Famulus or has an excellent seneshal else they will go bankrupt pretty fast. At least she probably has good contact in the Ecclesiarchy.

A Sister Sabine or a Sister Pronatus or a Sister Dialoguous would be a perfect fit for the more academically-minded Inquisitor. Armored in faith and purity, Sisters can handle artifacts and tomes that would damn a lesser being. Not all Inquisitors are Eisenhorn or Ravenor. Someone like Inquisitor Karamazov would make great use of a team of Battle Sisters.

As for the rest? I agree. A Sister is from the Schola Progenium, even if they have living family members, they have no ties to them.

As to the relative value of FFG's books? Eh.... GW also approved Grimnar's flying dog sled, and a *host* of ultra-gakky iPhone games, so the stamp of GW approval doesn't mean a whole lot.

epronovost wrote:
orphans that had their memory wiped clean and their name changed.

I'm trying to find the memory wiped part and can't. Where are you getting that from? None of the recent depictions I've found of what goes on in these facilities sounds like this. (Brutal sure, it's a catholic orphanage IN SPACE, but a lot of how writers seem to depict them are a lot less brutal than actual catholic orphanages. Or even US Indian Schools.)

 BaronIveagh wrote:

epronovost wrote:
orphans that had their memory wiped clean and their name changed.

I'm trying to find the memory wiped part and can't. Where are you getting that from?

Unless somebody wrote something incredibly stupid and got it added to canon, he's making it up. It's Space Marines who rely on psycho-surgery, not the Sisters of Battle. The Sisters rely on True Faith, and you can't make someone have that.

epronovost wrote:
It does make sense that a Sister of Battle (or from a non-militant Order) to become a member of the Inquisition. It must be a very rare occurence since the Inquisition favors intelligence, strength of personality and independance as qualitites and let say that the you won't find those qualities in abundance in the ranks of the zealots.A Rogue Trader who was a former Sister is like a blue moon. If it happens it will probbly be the only exception or so since those titles are hereditary and Sisters are systematically orphans that had their memory wiped clean and their name changed. It would be possible for one to be traced back to a Rogue Trader family since they are nobles and their orphanned sons and daughters are thus sent to Scholam, but it would be extremely difficult to find the correct one, prove her identity as a descendant of the Rogue Trader family. I hope for that Rogue Trader dynastie that the former Cannoness was from a Famulus or has an excellent seneshal else they will go bankrupt pretty fast. At least she probably has good contact in the Ecclesiarchy.

Now, now - a Sister's personality might be that of a fanatic but it is certainly strong. I recall some text piece from a novel where a Sister and a Marine confront a Daemon who asks for their names. The Sister refuses to say anything, but the Marine (proud of his Chapter and accomplishments) declares his title and name with no thought of the possible consequences. For some Inquisitorial duties this sort of closed mind could be very beneficial. A former Canoness who has burned a thosand heretics personally and ordered the deaths of millions more isn't going to let some sob story touch her. And she didn't lead her Sisters to victory by being stupid either.

Rogue Trader dynasties are still founded by the High Lords of Terra. They might not get quite as wide warrants as the old famous ones, maybe just permission to ply their trade in a certain sector, but if there's need for one then one is founded. A Canoness who's proven her loyalty countless times is no worse a candidate for the post than some Admiral or nobleman. She certainly knows something about supply lines after a century or two of keeping 1000+ Sisters working as an effective force.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

epronovost wrote:
orphans that had their memory wiped clean and their name changed.

I'm trying to find the memory wiped part and can't. Where are you getting that from? None of the recent depictions I've found of what goes on in these facilities sounds like this. (Brutal sure, it's a catholic orphanage IN SPACE, but a lot of how writers seem to depict them are a lot less brutal than actual catholic orphanages. Or even US Indian Schools.)

Codex Millitarum Tempestus. It covers the Scholam in more detail than the actual Tempestus Academie where Scions are trained. It mentions that memory wipe are systematic (but not always completly succesful as some students are left with weird broken remenant of their memory that sometimes drives them insane) and all cadet receive new names based on saints and heroes of the Imperium. The only exception are brothers and sisters who sometimes keep their own name to enhance their ties and foster competition. It also mention their brutal technic which are describe as children torture by some people (and its not that inacurate).

Where do we find and example in the background of a Sister of Battle having an intimate relationship? Where do we find an example of a Space Marine having an intimate relationship? One example would answer the question.

Lacking that, why would SM's and SoB's not have intimate relationships? And more importantly to the discussion, why would they? Do SM's and SoB's get time off for pregnancy and Maternity Leave? Do they take off a few years to raise kids? Do their families follow them from campaign to campaign?

If we easily accept that SM's are celebrate (by oath or genetic side effects, or martial discipline), why would SoB's be more promiscuous?