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 Gobbla wrote:
Where do we find and example in the background of a Sister of Battle having an intimate relationship? Where do we find an example of a Space Marine having an intimate relationship? One example would answer the question.

Lacking that, why would SM's and SoB's not have intimate relationships? And more importantly to the discussion, why would they? Do SM's and SoB's get time off for pregnancy and Maternity Leave? Do they take off a few years to raise kids? Do their families follow them from campaign to campaign?

If we easily accept that SM's are celebrate (by oath or genetic side effects, or martial discipline), why would SoB's be more promiscuous?

It all comes down the Chapter/Order the Astartes or Sororitas belongs to. If the Chapter doesn't do a whole lot, the possibility of an Astartes having a non-platonic relationship is raised (Salamanders for instance, who live with the people of Nocturne). If the Order is not a Chambers Militant, the possibility of a non-platonic relationship is also raised.

 Gobbla wrote:
Where do we find and example in the background of a Sister of Battle having an intimate relationship?

Cain's Last Stand, which is where we get a flat out statement that sisters do not take a vow of chastity. Though it's rare enough that Cain is surprised.

Daemonifuge, but that could could be considered questionable, as it ends in daemon possession. Sister was apparently sleeping with a Navigator.

Though the Cain novels are implied to be a parody of 40k in general, both in-universe and IRL, so take anything suggested as "fact" from those books with a grain of salt.

 Psienesis wrote:
Though the Cain novels are implied to be a parody of 40k in general, both in-universe and IRL, so take anything suggested as "fact" from those books with a grain of salt.

Psienesis, let me tell you how this discussion goes. You malign my sources and demand others. I provide them. You malign those too, and the circle gets smaller and smaller until you demand that I have to prove it with only the material on page 123 of Codex: Psienesis' Preffered Sisters of Battle edition, and that all other fluff, no matter how voluminous or recent, is irrelevant. I've been down this road before, and it did indeed reach the point that, upon demanding that I produce a GW codex source (no Forgeworld or Black Library BS, let alone, God help us, FFG) with an example of a space marine strike cruiser armed with a lance, and, upon producing not just one, but three very specific examples in a brand new GW Codex, the mental gymnasts claimed that A) they were talking about some other starship weapon that was also called a lance and just happened to fire 'lance strikes' at the ground that in no way resembled 'real' starship 'lance strikes' and/or that there were Eldar Weapons mounted on space marine strike cruisers that could just happen hit from orbit, and/or that the codex did not count, as it was too new and what does Phil Kelly know about writing 40k anyway?

This was in an actual discussion among playtesters and designers where we were troubleshooting GW's official rules for an official FAQ. People were actually trying to sabotage crunch to force their own head-canon on the game's fluff.

TheCustomLime wrote:
The Dark Angels?

"I'm going to hide my shame behind a hood and betray and kill everyone who finds out that my ancestors did something wrong" is not in any way repentant behaviour! They're not atoning, they're trying to pretend it never happened!

GoonBandito wrote:
I think she means a Loyalist chapter

No, I would accept a traitor chapter too, if they actually were regretful and trying to atone. The closest, I think, is the Imperial Fists - but in the Fists' case, it really is a case of potential Slaaneshi corruption as they are "over-eager" to use the Pain Glove without a reason ever being actually given.

Ashiraya wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Just another reason to discard Blood of Martyrs as the steaming pile of grox dung that it is.

BS in an IG novel, who'd have thought.

Er..? Maybe a little confused here, Ashi?

BaronIveagh wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

BS in an IG novel, who'd have thought.

BoM is the FFG written, GW approved, reference/splat book on the Eccelesiarchy in General and SoB in specific, for DH 1st Ed

"GW Approved", yeah... like that means anyone at GW even read it, rather than just handing FFG the licence and telling them when their royalty cheque is due.

BaronIveagh wrote:
As opposed to such gems as James Swallow's books (which is more important, saving the souls of a planet, or a city?)? or do you prefer Matt Ward's 'snufftide' of work?

The worst part about Swallows' books isn't that Miriya is a special snowflake - it's that her bosses know she's a rogue, and they still support her actions and reward her for things that should see her in the Repentia.

BaronIveagh wrote:At least in BoM they're both competent (occasionally very much so) and capable of winning without IG or SM holding their hands. I know the appearance of reasonable, humanlike people in the 40k setting might offend some purists who prefer to believe that all trains in the IoM run on steam engines powered by babies being burned alive, but the idea that 'Hey, I inherited a warrant of trade, why the feth am I living like this'? might enter someone's mind. I mean, there's still the aspect where Cardinal Cockblockalus screams 'Sacred Cheezy Poofs!" and proceeds to kill a few million people in the Holy War of Determining If There Should Be An Apostrophe In the Title of "Drusus Guide To Sacred Gardening Vol XXXXI'.

Seriously? Are we even talking about the same book?

BoM makes a special note of the fact that the Sisters are badass enough to fight "renegade guard and sometimes even Orks!"

Sometimes even orks?! What the actual hell? Regular Guardsmen fight orks all the time, and you're saying that a Sister has to be especially specially awesome to take them on?

The main problem with the Sister who inherits a Letter of Marque is that if her faith and devotion to the Sisterhood was that weak, she would never have made it past Novice - and she certainly wouldn't be Faithful enough to receive the Emperor's blessings.

BaronIveagh wrote:I grant, the CRUNCH in it leaves a lot to be desired, and 2nd ed is much improved, but the fluff was much better and more in depth on the Eccelisiarchy in General and SoB in specific than anything offered in a codex for years.

... The book demands that Battle Sisters have to earn their helmets in battle. That's just stupid. It also directly contradicts the direct fluff statement in previous books that Sororitas power armour offers the same degree of protection as Astartes power armour, by giving them what basically amounts to "battery powered masterwork light power armour", instead of the fusion-powered full war plate it's supposed to be.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Because you can't decide what is isn't excusable by saying 'it's just stylistic'?

Yeah you can. “Faster than the eye can follow” is pretty clearly stylistic, not some scientific accurate measurement, and anyone that does not have a direct interest in not understanding it correctly will understand so .

Faster than the eye can follow isn't hard. I can move my hand faster than the eye can follow, the human eye is pretty crap at tracking rapid movement.

BaronIveagh wrote:

 Gobbla wrote:
Where do we find and example in the background of a Sister of Battle having an intimate relationship?

Cain's Last Stand, which is where we get a flat out statement that sisters do not take a vow of chastity. Though it's rare enough that Cain is surprised.

Daemonifuge, but that could could be considered questionable, as it ends in daemon possession. Sister was apparently sleeping with a Navigator.

I believe it's pretty obvious when you actually read it that both the Sister who attempts to murder Ephrael at the beginning, and the one who seduced the navigator, were actually daemons in disguise all along. Especially since they're visually identical even though Ephrael rips the first one out of its skinsuit long before the second one appears.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Yeah you can. “Faster than the eye can follow” is pretty clearly stylistic, not some scientific accurate measurement, and anyone that does not have a direct interest in not understanding it correctly will understand so .

I have not mentioned 'faster than the eye can follow.'

 Furyou Miko wrote:


Er..? Maybe a little confused here, Ashi?

No.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Though the Cain novels are implied to be a parody of 40k in general, both in-universe and IRL, so take anything suggested as "fact" from those books with a grain of salt.

Psienesis, let me tell you how this discussion goes. You malign my sources and demand others. I provide them. You malign those too, and the circle gets smaller and smaller until you demand that I have to prove it with only the material on page 123 of Codex: Psienesis' Preffered Sisters of Battle edition, and that all other fluff, no matter how voluminous or recent, is irrelevant. I've been down this road before, and it did indeed reach the point that, upon demanding that I produce a GW codex source (no Forgeworld or Black Library BS, let alone, God help us, FFG) with an example of a space marine strike cruiser armed with a lance, and, upon producing not just one, but three very specific examples in a brand new GW Codex, the mental gymnasts claimed that A) they were talking about some other starship weapon that was also called a lance and just happened to fire 'lance strikes' at the ground that in no way resembled 'real' starship 'lance strikes' and/or that there were Eldar Weapons mounted on space marine strike cruisers that could just happen hit from orbit, and/or that the codex did not count, as it was too new and what does Phil Kelly know about writing 40k anyway?

This was in an actual discussion among playtesters and designers where we were troubleshooting GW's official rules for an official FAQ. People were actually trying to sabotage crunch to force their own head-canon on the game's fluff.

Cannot comment on the lance discussion as I don't think I was involved with that, but I will, again, reiterate that using a source that is intended to be satirical of the setting, and the grim-darkness, and contains in-universe jokes about other Black Library books, authors and characters is, perhaps, not the best source for "canon" citations.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I have not mentioned 'faster than the eye can follow.'

You have not yet mentioned it in this discussion .

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Faster than the eye can follow isn't hard. I can move my hand faster than the eye can follow, the human eye is pretty crap at tracking rapid movement.

Well, Ashiraya had an… interesting explanation about it. But maybe it was not exactly this wording, which would explain the above. What was it about something being described in an obviously stylistic fashion as very fast and you looking to actual science to get a precise measurement that made literally no sense, Ashiraya?

 Psienesis wrote:

Cannot comment on the lance discussion as I don't think I was involved with that, but I will, again, reiterate that using a source that is intended to be satirical of the setting, and the grim-darkness, and contains in-universe jokes about other Black Library books, authors and characters is, perhaps, not the best source for "canon" citations.

Where is it stated that Cain is satire of the 40k Universe rather than humour IN the 40k universe?

IIRC the same novel that has Cain at the scholam where he sees a Sororitas instructor having a relationship with a scribe is the novel
Real light-hearted, funny stuff.

You are confusing Cain's sense of humour and Vail's sarcasm with the subject matter. If you lived through the grim darkness of the 41st millennium you would need a coping mechanism and humour is as good as any.
The series occasionally ribs other author's more 'gritty' works with the Ghosts famous battle cry being derided as melodrama (a fair point) but it never crosses into making fun of the universe itself.

Cain as 'sensible commissar' has not prevented him from executing two guardsmen under his direct command which is more than Gaunt has done. I'm aware Gaunt went grimdark on some PDF once and he killed his Uncle, but I think Hark has killed more Ghosts than Gaunt.

Spoiler alert, man. They are useful. Use the Spoiler tags and put a written warning explaining which book/movie/… you are going to spoil. Please!

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Yeah you can. “Faster than the eye can follow” is pretty clearly stylistic, not some scientific accurate measurement, and anyone that does not have a direct interest in not understanding it correctly will understand so .

I have not mentioned 'faster than the eye can follow.'

 Furyou Miko wrote:


Er..? Maybe a little confused here, Ashi?

No.

Well... BoM's not a novel, so... now you confused me.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

"GW Approved", yeah... like that means anyone at GW even read it, rather than just handing FFG the licence and telling them when their royalty cheque is due.

You really obviously have never had to deal with GW in this context. Ever. While they do occasionally let gak slip, and some are given way more leeway than others, most of the time they are anal beyond all belief (see above discussion of lances). FFG had to submit the battlecry for their in house SM chapter for approval more than 30 times, until GW finally approved one. Defiant class light cruisers were forced to remain uselessly broken in Battlefleet Koronus because they are on the table top.

I'll listen to what you think of SoB, but don't even try to tell me how you think GW works in this context. Very few posters have had to deal with GW's licensing bs department, but I'm told that it's a lot like what we went through with BFG, ie GW going full on pants-on-head slowed.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

The main problem with the Sister who inherits a Letter of Marque is that if her faith and devotion to the Sisterhood was that weak, she would never have made it past Novice - and she certainly wouldn't be Faithful enough to receive the Emperor's blessings.

Well, first of all it's called a 'Writ of Trade' (A Letter of Marque is an annotation to it) and second it makes you the Emperor's direct representative when outside the boundaries of the Imperium. Some of said writs are actually signed by the Emperor himself they are so old, and the Ecclesiarchy is the source of more than a few of them as well.

What faithful sister would turn down what basically amounts to a direct promotion to being the Emperor's right hand outside the bounds of the Imperium?

Also, they're not something that can actually *be* turned down. The Emperor originally created them as a politically acceptable way to get rid of the powerful and ambitious during the Unification wars, and it is apparently a still a common use for them.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

I believe it's pretty obvious when you actually read it that both the Sister who attempts to murder Ephrael at the beginning, and the one who seduced the navigator, were actually daemons in disguise all along. Especially since they're visually identical even though Ephrael rips the first one out of its skinsuit long before the second one appears.

Except that most of the sisters are visually identical in that, so that's a bit of a no sell there. And how would daemons get through initiation into the SoB? They clearly had been in a long time, because they had access to some of the most secure areas, and no mysterious bodies showed up, so they're unlikely to have been shapeshifters masquerading as a particular sister. No, this looks more like some sisters got possessed.

To the original question, the contrary evidence needs to be like an NFL challenge. There, the call on the field is only reversed if the contrary evidence is conclusive. Here, reversing decades of popular conception is a reasonably hard sell. One incident in one book that is itself premised on contrary evidence (i.e. the Cowardly Commissar), or the the actions of one Sister may not be conclusive to some (or most). In any case, good discussion that could have easily gone off the rails.

 Gobbla wrote:
To the original question, the contrary evidence needs to be like an NFL challenge. There, the call on the field is only reversed if the contrary evidence is conclusive.

The issue is that GW deliberately writes it so that not only is any particular detail exists in some sort of writing version of quantum super positioning where it occupies all possible states of truth and untruth simultaneously. Throw people's head canon into the mix and it becomes a sort of quantum singularity, where no correct or incorrect conception exists. Games Workshop has indeed set out with this as their GOAL for the canon.

Sadly, the inevitable result of this is a universal reboot in most fictional settings that devolve to the point that 40k has as far as altering the timeline to shoehorn in more stuff.

The Cain series is as valid as anything else written by Games Workshop, as per their canon policy, which basically amounts to an indifferent shrug. One may have any sort of opinion on the quality of it, but officially it's just as valid as anything else.

Granted, I never liked the whole bit of fluff introduced in the Cain books. It always seemed to me more of a bit of immature wish fulfillment to all those fanboys with the "naughty nun'' fantasies, on Sandy Mitchell's part. It kinda defeats the whole point of the Sisters being these ultra-zealous nuns whose faith and devotion is so strong it has tangible effects and miracles. Having romantic or intimate relationships seems to really go against that whole sort of ascetic selfless devotion.

Gree wrote:
The Cain series is as valid as anything else written by Games Workshop, as per their canon policy, which basically amounts to an indifferent shrug. One may have any sort of opinion on the quality of it, but officially it's just as valid as anything else.

Granted, I never liked the whole bit of fluff introduced in the Cain books. It always seemed to me more of a bit of immature wish fulfillment to all those fanboys with the "naughty nun'' fantasies, on Sandy Mitchell's part. It kinda defeats the whole point of the Sisters being these ultra-zealous nuns whose faith and devotion is so strong it has tangible effects and miracles. Having romantic or intimate relationships seems to really go against that whole sort of ascetic selfless devotion.

We already have two human forces who left their humanity at the door and another who uninstalled it while upgrading firmware.
Sisters can love. They can be fanatics and still have joy in the Emperor, their sisterhood and occasionally, their humanity.
Ultra zealous paladins can still have functioning relationships
Regarding the Cain series, its not so much wish fulfillment as rehumanising 40k and making it a struggle of men against a hostile galaxy, not brainwashed serfs and lab grown mutants railing with pure hatred against hatred.
The Cain books give us techpriests who enjoy eating food, a clerk who works with a computer but puts ink stains on his clothes for political reasons within the administration, a fierce but kind sister who cares for the poor when she's not training novices in bolter drills.
All in a book about a commissar who is terrified by the 41st millennium but fights on.

I'd rather read about that than sigmarites with bolters and lasguns, grimly grimacing as they die and respawn for the Emperor.

 =Angel= wrote:

Gree wrote:
The Cain series is as valid as anything else written by Games Workshop, as per their canon policy, which basically amounts to an indifferent shrug. One may have any sort of opinion on the quality of it, but officially it's just as valid as anything else.

Granted, I never liked the whole bit of fluff introduced in the Cain books. It always seemed to me more of a bit of immature wish fulfillment to all those fanboys with the "naughty nun'' fantasies, on Sandy Mitchell's part. It kinda defeats the whole point of the Sisters being these ultra-zealous nuns whose faith and devotion is so strong it has tangible effects and miracles. Having romantic or intimate relationships seems to really go against that whole sort of ascetic selfless devotion.

We already have two human forces who left their humanity at the door and another who uninstalled it while upgrading firmware.
Sisters can love. They can be fanatics and still have joy in the Emperor, their sisterhood and occasionally, their humanity.
Ultra zealous paladins can still have functioning relationships.

I'm sorry if I don't share your opinion, but I don't agree with that at all.

Granted, I don't think that Sisters are emotionless worship bots without any kind of personality but I don't think they would go for the kind of romantic relationships like that.

Gree wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:

Gree wrote:
The Cain series is as valid as anything else written by Games Workshop, as per their canon policy, which basically amounts to an indifferent shrug. One may have any sort of opinion on the quality of it, but officially it's just as valid as anything else.

Granted, I never liked the whole bit of fluff introduced in the Cain books. It always seemed to me more of a bit of immature wish fulfillment to all those fanboys with the "naughty nun'' fantasies, on Sandy Mitchell's part. It kinda defeats the whole point of the Sisters being these ultra-zealous nuns whose faith and devotion is so strong it has tangible effects and miracles. Having romantic or intimate relationships seems to really go against that whole sort of ascetic selfless devotion.

We already have two human forces who left their humanity at the door and another who uninstalled it while upgrading firmware.
Sisters can love. They can be fanatics and still have joy in the Emperor, their sisterhood and occasionally, their humanity.
Ultra zealous paladins can still have functioning relationships.

I'm sorry if I don't share your opinion, but I don't agree with that at all.

Granted, I don't think that Sisters are emotionless worship bots without any kind of personality but I don't think they would go for the kind of romantic relationships like that.

I agree. I don't think they would either, by and large. Being permenantly on call for various violent or arduous tasks will give them little opportunity and being shoved into an all female military at a young age will likely steer their thoughts elsewhere.
However given that they are not emotionless and that it is not expressly forbidden, it can and does happen, much like the occasional techpriests who quite likes his food or her face or what have you.

 =Angel= wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

Cannot comment on the lance discussion as I don't think I was involved with that, but I will, again, reiterate that using a source that is intended to be satirical of the setting, and the grim-darkness, and contains in-universe jokes about other Black Library books, authors and characters is, perhaps, not the best source for "canon" citations.

Where is it stated that Cain is satire of the 40k Universe rather than humour IN the 40k universe?

IIRC the same novel that has Cain at the scholam where he sees a Sororitas instructor having a relationship with a scribe is the novel

Spoiler:

with the student who Cain doesn't fully trust because he reminds him of himself and eventually a chaos psyker lord who has telepathic mind control.
Cain inevitably builds a rapport of sorts with the lad, but when he falls under mind control is forced to execute him.
He takes off his own sash and places it on the boys corpse, 'graduating him' symbolically post-mortem.
The mind control does not stop (phantom menace style) when the psyker is dealt with either, so Imperial forces are forced to gun down once loyal comrades and sisters of battle.

Real light-hearted, funny stuff.

You are confusing Cain's sense of humour and Vail's sarcasm with the subject matter. If you lived through the grim darkness of the 41st millennium you would need a coping mechanism and humour is as good as any.
The series occasionally ribs other author's more 'gritty' works with the Ghosts famous battle cry being derided as melodrama (a fair point) but it never crosses into making fun of the universe itself.

Cain as 'sensible commissar' has not prevented him from executing two guardsmen under his direct command which is more than Gaunt has done. I'm aware Gaunt went grimdark on some PDF once and he killed his Uncle, but I think Hark has killed more Ghosts than Gaunt.

Yeah, that's satire in, and of, 40k. Even when the enemy is dead, you still get killed. Welcome to Grimdark grimdark. It's actually pretty funny, because it *is* so grimdark. The books are not meant to be taken at all seriously.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
So obviously it happens.
Sisters are still human, and the lure of another pious warrior can sometimes prove to be too much. Whether it be simply to sate urges, or if it actually results in Kinship, the reasoning is the same.
My questions are:
1. How is this typically viewed within an order? Is it heresy or simply looked down upon.
2. How often does this happen?

I admire the OP for coming straight out of nowhere with a question about sexy times. +1 from me.


1)
I suppose the answer would be whether or not the Ecclisiarchy looks down on sex. You might assume they would because they're religious but then so were the celts yet they believed that sex brought you closer to their gods. Probably the ecclsiarchy is just as strict as crusade era christianity, but regardless though, I highly doubt that even if the ecclsiarchy was sexually open that sisters would be afforded that privalege. Sex would get in the way of their roles, and sexual fustration is a pretty effective way of keeping your soldiers overly aggresive. Plus you want them to appear to Guardsmen and the 'common folk' as angels, an image which doesn't work when they're doing it day and night.
Most likely the orders will react to it on a case by case basis. If two sisters get caught engaging in proffesional misconduct in the showers they'll be made to run around the yard 100 times or fast for a few days. If they caught with Johnny Guardsmen however they'll probably be on a one way course to the repentia.

2)
Well, they were raised in a church funded, military-run orphanage, so the chances of them not being sexually abused throughout their childhood and teens is considerably low. In additon they're brainwashed to be psychopathic and hate filled killers by an oppresive regime. If they do have sex, it's probably not going to be an enjoyable experience for anyone involved. Less passion filled romps and more crying and panic attacks.

 Smokeycrisp wrote:
sexual fustration is a pretty effective way of keeping your soldiers overly aggresive

Are you saying that not having sex makes people more aggressive? I would certainly disagree with this.

 =Angel= wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

Cannot comment on the lance discussion as I don't think I was involved with that, but I will, again, reiterate that using a source that is intended to be satirical of the setting, and the grim-darkness, and contains in-universe jokes about other Black Library books, authors and characters is, perhaps, not the best source for "canon" citations.

Where is it stated that Cain is satire of the 40k Universe rather than humour IN the 40k universe?

IIRC the same novel that has Cain at the scholam where he sees a Sororitas instructor having a relationship with a scribe is the novel

Spoiler:

with the student who Cain doesn't fully trust because he reminds him of himself and eventually a chaos psyker lord who has telepathic mind control.
Cain inevitably builds a rapport of sorts with the lad, but when he falls under mind control is forced to execute him.
He takes off his own sash and places it on the boys corpse, 'graduating him' symbolically post-mortem.
The mind control does not stop (phantom menace style) when the psyker is dealt with either, so Imperial forces are forced to gun down once loyal comrades and sisters of battle.

Real light-hearted, funny stuff.

You are confusing Cain's sense of humour and Vail's sarcasm with the subject matter. If you lived through the grim darkness of the 41st millennium you would need a coping mechanism and humour is as good as any.
The series occasionally ribs other author's more 'gritty' works with the Ghosts famous battle cry being derided as melodrama (a fair point) but it never crosses into making fun of the universe itself.

Cain as 'sensible commissar' has not prevented him from executing two guardsmen under his direct command which is more than Gaunt has done. I'm aware Gaunt went grimdark on some PDF once and he killed his Uncle, but I think Hark has killed more Ghosts than Gaunt.

Love this post - exactly reflects my view of the Cain novels -they have both humour and genuine darkness - a combination which makes the latter more effective IMO - Cain finds the sight of vans full of criminals being driven to scholam to be used as target and exectution practice by the children there as comforting in its familiarity.

One minor thing - The Sisters in that novel

 Mr Morden wrote:

One minor thing - The Sisters in that novel

Spoiler:

are not killed by non mind cotnrolled forces - they commit suicide

Only two of them. The rest are

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Smokeycrisp wrote:
sexual fustration is a pretty effective way of keeping your soldiers overly aggresive

Are you saying that not having sex makes people more aggressive? I would certainly disagree with this.

Not having sex is completely different to sexual frustration.

If we believe Space Marines are chaste, pure, and above desire. Then, how do we believe their female counterparts are not?

 =Angel= wrote:

I agree. I don't think they would either, by and large. Being permenantly on call for various violent or arduous tasks will give them little opportunity and being shoved into an all female military at a young age will likely steer their thoughts elsewhere.
However given that they are not emotionless and that it is not expressly forbidden, it can and does happen, much like the occasional techpriests who quite likes his food or her face or what have you.

I'm sorry but I don't agree with your interpretation of them as paladins. I see them as nuns. I'm afraid my interpretation of them is not going to change either.

But to clarify, I do acknowledge the validity of the Cain novels on the whole issue. I just think it's a piece of bad writing and I don't like it. I do think that as essentially Space Nuns they should have a vow of chastity of some sorts. Or at least that's how I would write the Sororitas.

 Gobbla wrote:
If we believe Space Marines are chaste, pure, and above desire. Then, how do we believe their female counterparts are not?

I might point out that there have been canon examples where this was also expressly untrue (in particular, Space Wolves).

 Gobbla wrote:
If we believe Space Marines are chaste, pure, and above desire.

They aren't. They're mostly a bunch of thugs who have been turned into a bunch of abhuman freaks.

 Smokeycrisp wrote:
Not having sex is completely different to sexual frustration.

What's sexual frustration?

 Gobbla wrote:
If we believe Space Marines are chaste, pure, and above desire. Then, how do we believe their female counterparts are not?

Sisters are not Marines' female counterpart. They are so much better than this!

 Furyou Miko wrote:

TheCustomLime wrote:
The Dark Angels?

"I'm going to hide my shame behind a hood and betray and kill everyone who finds out that my ancestors did something wrong" is not in any way repentant behaviour! They're not atoning, they're trying to pretend it never happened!

GoonBandito wrote:
I think she means a Loyalist chapter

No, I would accept a traitor chapter too, if they actually were regretful and trying to atone. The closest, I think, is the Imperial Fists - but in the Fists' case, it really is a case of potential Slaaneshi corruption as they are "over-eager" to use the Pain Glove without a reason ever being actually given.

Ashiraya wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Just another reason to discard Blood of Martyrs as the steaming pile of grox dung that it is.

BS in an IG novel, who'd have thought.

Er..? Maybe a little confused here, Ashi?

BaronIveagh wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

BS in an IG novel, who'd have thought.

BoM is the FFG written, GW approved, reference/splat book on the Eccelesiarchy in General and SoB in specific, for DH 1st Ed

"GW Approved", yeah... like that means anyone at GW even read it, rather than just handing FFG the licence and telling them when their royalty cheque is due.

BaronIveagh wrote:
As opposed to such gems as James Swallow's books (which is more important, saving the souls of a planet, or a city?)? or do you prefer Matt Ward's 'snufftide' of work?

The worst part about Swallows' books isn't that Miriya is a special snowflake - it's that her bosses know she's a rogue, and they still support her actions and reward her for things that should see her in the Repentia.

BaronIveagh wrote:At least in BoM they're both competent (occasionally very much so) and capable of winning without IG or SM holding their hands. I know the appearance of reasonable, humanlike people in the 40k setting might offend some purists who prefer to believe that all trains in the IoM run on steam engines powered by babies being burned alive, but the idea that 'Hey, I inherited a warrant of trade, why the feth am I living like this'? might enter someone's mind. I mean, there's still the aspect where Cardinal Cockblockalus screams 'Sacred Cheezy Poofs!" and proceeds to kill a few million people in the Holy War of Determining If There Should Be An Apostrophe In the Title of "Drusus Guide To Sacred Gardening Vol XXXXI'.

Seriously? Are we even talking about the same book?

BoM makes a special note of the fact that the Sisters are badass enough to fight "renegade guard and sometimes even Orks!"

Sometimes even orks?! What the actual hell? Regular Guardsmen fight orks all the time, and you're saying that a Sister has to be especially specially awesome to take them on?

The main problem with the Sister who inherits a Letter of Marque is that if her faith and devotion to the Sisterhood was that weak, she would never have made it past Novice - and she certainly wouldn't be Faithful enough to receive the Emperor's blessings.

BaronIveagh wrote:I grant, the CRUNCH in it leaves a lot to be desired, and 2nd ed is much improved, but the fluff was much better and more in depth on the Eccelisiarchy in General and SoB in specific than anything offered in a codex for years.

... The book demands that Battle Sisters have to earn their helmets in battle. That's just stupid. It also directly contradicts the direct fluff statement in previous books that Sororitas power armour offers the same degree of protection as Astartes power armour, by giving them what basically amounts to "battery powered masterwork light power armour", instead of the fusion-powered full war plate it's supposed to be.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Because you can't decide what is isn't excusable by saying 'it's just stylistic'?

Yeah you can. “Faster than the eye can follow” is pretty clearly stylistic, not some scientific accurate measurement, and anyone that does not have a direct interest in not understanding it correctly will understand so .

Faster than the eye can follow isn't hard. I can move my hand faster than the eye can follow, the human eye is pretty crap at tracking rapid movement.

BaronIveagh wrote:

 Gobbla wrote:
Where do we find and example in the background of a Sister of Battle having an intimate relationship?

Cain's Last Stand, which is where we get a flat out statement that sisters do not take a vow of chastity. Though it's rare enough that Cain is surprised.

Daemonifuge, but that could could be considered questionable, as it ends in daemon possession. Sister was apparently sleeping with a Navigator.

I believe it's pretty obvious when you actually read it that both the Sister who attempts to murder Ephrael at the beginning, and the one who seduced the navigator, were actually daemons in disguise all along. Especially since they're visually identical even though Ephrael rips the first one out of its skinsuit long before the second one appears.

Actually you can still track an object that's moving like a blur, it's even how your peripheral vision works by responding to blurry things in the corner of your eyes. The hard-cap for the processing speed of data captured by the eye and sent to the brain is thirteen milliseconds. Anything faster than that will be largely imperceptible.