Just finished the novel that accompanies the campaign. Great read but a bit worried about the direction of the story at the end. Blue on blue doesn't even cover it... very brief, disjointed, summary in the spoilers below.
Updated to clarify a couple of points.
Spoiler:
Wulfen return in a bow wave of daemonic incursions within the Fenrisian systems over a number of months.
Guided by a Wulfen Alpha the SWs track the incursions, after the first, and dispatch all but one of the great companies to bring their lost brothers home.
Grey Knights track them all too suspecting a major incursion is in the off knowing nothing of the Wulfen.
Hints at their return being pre-ordained before the 13th went missing and their return being a precursor to the "end times" and the return of Russ.
The pattern of incursions is in the shape of a sigil used by the sorcerers of Prospero meaning "Vengeance"
in the same time frame a force of Dark Angel scouts are slaughtered during the first incursion and vid-caps of Wulfen retained, investigations and suspicions of heresy and mutation within the Space Wolves abound
Flames are fanned by the Changeling and eventually the bulk of the Dark Angels fleet including THE ROCK arrive supported by a dozen other chapters including the Ultramarines and Iron Hands.
Book ends with the bombardment of Fenris commencing
Mr Morden wrote: Seriously - the Dark Angels geting upset about someone killing their scouts when they do it all the time to other Chapters.............
You mean the Dark Angels are massive hypocrites? Shocking!
This does all sound a bit odd... I mean, it makes sense if the SW have actually been declared Excommunicate Traitoris, but I can't see them going that far. I can definitely see the DA taking the first chance they get to point out that someone else has potential Heresy issues, it takes the scrutiny off them and settles their old grudge with the Wolves in explosive fashion. Just seems extreme for GW to essentially be setting up an Imperial Civil War (some Chapters are bound to take the side of the Wolves if this escalates, either out of loyalty or to settle scores of their own against other Chapters)
Unless something's got lost in translation, and the bombardment of Fenris is a precursor to an attempt to relieve the Space Wolves who are under siege by the Chaos incursion...
And then there's The Rock (presumably with the Lion still inside) and the rumours of the return of Russ... could the Primarchs, who were ultimately quite close in the end, be about to emerge and yell 'STOP FIGHTING!' before an epic team-up against Magnus and the Thousand Sons? Or are they going to exacerbate things further, and lead to an actual Heresy 2: This Time It's Personal? Or is it all mumbo-jumbo, and we're never going to find out?
If written well, I could see this being a really tragic tale, the SW watching their allies turn on them for something that's ultimately no fault of their own, while the DA are trying to start a fight and everyone's secrets and weaknesses start coming to the fore...
Really? They're known for doing their own thing and they haven't exactly been on good terms with the inquisition or the ecclesiarchy. I'm honestly surprised the Imperium has put up with them for as long as they have.
Really? They're known for doing their own thing and they haven't exactly been on good terms with the inquisition or the ecclesiarchy. I'm honestly surprised the Imperium has put up with them for as long as they have.
Yep but having troubles with a said chapter is utterly different with mobilizing 15 other chapters to (it seems) invade their homeworlds. Even though the SW had questionable independency regarding Adeptus Terra' standards, they are known to fight for the Imperium. No one is wondering whether they are chaos worshippers or not. The episode of the months of shame has happened but it is more linked to prerogatives disputes than a true allegiance problem (even though the Inquisition is quick to say the former is the same as the latter).
That is what surprise me. The quick summary makes me feel like "well, that escalated quickly".
RazgrizOne wrote: The quick summary makes me feel like "well, that escalated quickly".
Yeah that'll be my "amazing" summarising skills coming into play... There is a fairly quick escalation to it within the story but not as instantaneous as I fear I made it look. The DA, spurred on by the Changeling, believe that the Fenrisian systems have fallen to a daemonic incursion brought about by the fall of the Wolves. The implication is that they and their allies are rocking up to purge everyone, not just the Wolves.
The Wolves don't do themselves any favours by treating the Wulfen with the same secrecy as the Dark angels treat the Fallen. The hypocrisy is not lost on me. The Grey Knights, well Stern really, seem to be the arbiters of reason is this.
As far as I can remember, ALL of the recent (like last 5 years) fiction for the 41st millennium Space Wolves (other than the limited stuff which I haven't been able to read) has had an undercurrent of tension between the Wolves and the organizations of the Imperium. I don't like the idea of "THE END TIMES" very much*, but GW has done a good job of building a plausible dynamic tension between the Space Wolves as "Heroes of the Imperium" and "Dangerously Free-Minded Warriors Touched By Chaos".
Spoiler:
Stormcaller continued the story of a pack with a returning member of the Deathwatch and a nascent psyker touched by Chaos. It had a conflict with an Ecclesiastical authority that escalated into open conflict, and maintained a story with a shadowy faction manipulating the deaths of Space Wolves and a series of deployments that strained them to their limits (and sounded a lot like the shadowy manipulation of the Celestial Lions). The story (can't remember the name) that featured the Wulfen had them being manipulated into attacking loyalist marines in self-defense, all as part of being the pawns of another.
I feel like they have been trying to build up for a confrontation between the Wolves and the greater Imperium ever since the novel that explored the first Armageddon war (which also put the Grey Knights in a difficult position between the dictates of the Inquisition and the strongly independent decisions of Logan Grimnar). I hope they don't do something rash and stupid (like an actual End Times), but I do like the fact that they've been ratcheting up the tension in multiple books by multiple authors for years.
*I hate the "End Times" for the same reason that I would hate a World War I novel where the defeat of the Germans ended all militarism everywhere on earth, forever. Wells called it "the war to end all war", and heck, he may have believed that at one point, but that was what he called it, not what it actually was. It's fine for the despairing citizens of the Imperium to believe that they are living in the End Times, but it smacks of putting the cart before the horse to then take that phrase and actually run things that way. Of course, I couldn't believe that anyone would have blown up the Old World either, so my meter of rational decisionmaking is not GW calibrated, obviously.
Da Butcha wrote: As far as I can remember, ALL of the recent (like last 5 years) fiction for the 41st millennium Space Wolves (other than the limited stuff which I haven't been able to read) has had an undercurrent of tension between the Wolves and the organizations of the Imperium. I don't like the idea of "THE END TIMES" very much*, but GW has done a good job of building a plausible dynamic tension between the Space Wolves as "Heroes of the Imperium" and "Dangerously Free-Minded Warriors Touched By Chaos".
Spoiler:
Stormcaller continued the story of a pack with a returning member of the Deathwatch and a nascent psyker touched by Chaos. It had a conflict with an Ecclesiastical authority that escalated into open conflict, and maintained a story with a shadowy faction manipulating the deaths of Space Wolves and a series of deployments that strained them to their limits (and sounded a lot like the shadowy manipulation of the Celestial Lions). The story (can't remember the name) that featured the Wulfen had them being manipulated into attacking loyalist marines in self-defense, all as part of being the pawns of another.
I feel like they have been trying to build up for a confrontation between the Wolves and the greater Imperium ever since the novel that explored the first Armageddon war (which also put the Grey Knights in a difficult position between the dictates of the Inquisition and the strongly independent decisions of Logan Grimnar). I hope they don't do something rash and stupid (like an actual End Times), but I do like the fact that they've been ratcheting up the tension in multiple books by multiple authors for years.
*I hate the "End Times" for the same reason that I would hate a World War I novel where the defeat of the Germans ended all militarism everywhere on earth, forever. Wells called it "the war to end all war", and heck, he may have believed that at one point, but that was what he called it, not what it actually was. It's fine for the despairing citizens of the Imperium to believe that they are living in the End Times, but it smacks of putting the cart before the horse to then take that phrase and actually run things that way. Of course, I couldn't believe that anyone would have blown up the Old World either, so my meter of rational decisionmaking is not GW calibrated, obviously.
I Really hope that it turns out to be Magnus's shadow organization (Tzeentch, and all that), which turns out to be the Alpha Legion, which turned out to be Alpharius, which turned out to be Magnus in disguise! The Space Wolves' enemies are Tzeentchian Traitors, after all, might as well make their destruction Tzeentchian.
While on the one hand I would not mind seeing the SW's destroyed and removed from the background (given how atrocious they've become as a faction), it feels both lazy and anti-climactic to have this occur as a result of loyalist forces turning on them, if it's going to happen, the Thousand Sons *should* have that victory...that's really the only way to wrap up that story "correctly".
BlackLibraryWebStore wrote:This is the biggest, most galaxy-changing event the Warhammer 40,000 universe has seen for years. The truth about the Wulfen is out, and things for the Space Wolves will never be the same again
Yeah, don't get too excited about that. The whole galaxy isn't going to end. It is just some corrupted marines doing what humans do. I would be surprised if any xenos faction at all would even see this as a minor event in their history.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The return of the brain boyz, the arrival of large tyranid fleets, full awakening of necron fleets,radical paradigma shifts in eldar cultur, the death and rebirth of the emperor those things would be galaxy-changing events. I haven't read the book. but even if they killed of all grey knights and space wolves the galaxy would not be that changed at all.
Daayuum, so do you really think they will start destroying the Wolves? Russ said there will be a time when the chapter is dying, as he is. Could this be the chapter beginning to die?
I guess the clock just turned a second closer to midnight. Honestly though I love advances in fluff, will have to get this book. Even though I dont want to see 40k end as in a definitive end times, nothing beats the feeling of impending doom.
Yeah that'll be my "amazing" summarising skills coming into play... There is a fairly quick escalation to it within the story but not as instantaneous as I fear I made it look. The DA, spurred on by the Changeling, believe that the Fenrisian systems have fallen to a daemonic incursion brought about by the fall of the Wolves. The implication is that they and their allies are rocking up to purge everyone, not just the Wolves.
it's not exactly the makings of a civil war (although that would be awesome, I think), more Chaos manipulating things; I imagine there will be that moment of realisation where all these Chapters realise they've been had, and team up to go all Avengers on the demons and Tsons... which is a shame, as I really like the sound of where it initially seemed to be heading, but maybe there will still be hints of that. Once the current crisis is dealt with, there's still the small matter of the Space Wolf mutants running around.
Did the novel mention the absolutely vast amount of void and orbital assests that the last codex suddenly gave to the Wolves (and never had before) - hundreds of warships, multiple Star Fortresses, etc etc?
Their Fleet makes the entire Ultramarines fleet look like a mere squadron.
If the Codex was accurate - they would need all those Chapters listed and whatever vast fleet the Dark Angels got given in the last Codex to even try and achieve void superiority
Indeed, which is why the Wolves will win - since they have enough naval assets to destroy every fleet the Imperial Navy has in the whole Segmentum Obscurus at once, and still fend off a Ork Waagh...
unmercifulconker wrote: Daayuum, so do you really think they will start destroying the Wolves? Russ said there will be a time when the chapter is dying, as he is. Could this be the chapter beginning to die?
I guess the clock just turned a second closer to midnight. Honestly though I love advances in fluff, will have to get this book. Even though I dont want to see 40k end as in a definitive end times, nothing beats the feeling of impending doom.
I don't think the "End Times" in 40k will go the same way as they did Fantasy. But there will be major changes in the setting. At least, that's my gut feeling.
That is if GW actually advances the setting to amount to anything.
And the Wolves? The Sons of Russ won't die that easily.
Furyou Miko wrote: Indeed, which is why the Wolves will win - since they have enough naval assets to destroy every fleet the Imperial Navy has in the whole Segmentum Obscurus at once, and still fend off a Ork Waagh...
Nobody can hope to win againts The Rock. Even the Tau were wiped out in a single day and they are far stronger than the wolves.
Furyou Miko wrote: Indeed, which is why the Wolves will win - since they have enough naval assets to destroy every fleet the Imperial Navy has in the whole Segmentum Obscurus at once, and still fend off a Ork Waagh...
They do? Given the estimates of the size of a sector battlefleet from BFG, the number of sectors in the galaxy, and the size of each segmentum, the full size of an entire segmentum fleet would be tens of millions of vessels.
Furyou Miko wrote: Indeed, which is why the Wolves will win - since they have enough naval assets to destroy every fleet the Imperial Navy has in the whole Segmentum Obscurus at once, and still fend off a Ork Waagh...
They do? Given the estimates of the size of a sector battlefleet from BFG, the number of sectors in the galaxy, and the size of each segmentum, the full size of an entire segmentum fleet would be tens of millions of vessels.
That may have been slight hyperbole, although I don't think you are looking at tens of millions of vessels in a Segmentum grand fleet. Thousands maybe. Remember, the Imperium has roughly a million worlds, spread around the different Segmentums - many of those potential sectors will be wild space or otherwise undefended by a naval presence.
Mmhm. A cardinal took six company-strengths of Sisters to Fenris to demand we be allowed to teach the poor, downtrodden locals of Fenris the light of the Emperor... and the Wolves had to call their whole chapter back to stop us landing any missionaries.
Mmhm. A cardinal took six company-strengths of Sisters to Fenris to demand we be allowed to teach the poor, downtrodden locals of Fenris the light of the Emperor... and the Wolves had to call their whole chapter back to stop us landing any missionaries.
So if I follow you, the Ecclessiarchy won the war when it failed to break into the Fang, did not manage to cripple the Chapter as a whole and then withdrawn from the Fenris system?
Sorry if I'm provocative, but you guys may just admit one's faction cannot always win (save if you're playing Tau or Ultramarines)
Edit: I'll be interested to know more about the incident, since I did not find any mention of the SW calling back their whole chapter.
Furyou Miko wrote: Indeed, which is why the Wolves will win - since they have enough naval assets to destroy every fleet the Imperial Navy has in the whole Segmentum Obscurus at once, and still fend off a Ork Waagh...
Nobody can hope to win againts The Rock. Even the Tau were wiped out in a single day and they are far stronger than the wolves.
Its a battle of plot shields - nothing more.............which of the two Chapters has the best.
pm713 wrote: It's not exactly the Imperium though. It's one chapter fleet and SOME support which could be one ship. Hardly the whole Imperium...
Spoiler:
Dark Angels,’ Feingar said. He tapped the augur network’s pict screen. One reading after another appeared. ‘Ultramarines. Iron Hands…’ More than a dozen different Chapter runes appeared over the vessel signals. Then came those of Knightly houses. Then mass transporters of the Astra Militarum. The fleet was immense.
‘Dragongaze,’ Harald said, ‘Are you picking up the same signatures?’ He had so many doubts. There had been so much deception. He had to be sure.
‘We are,’ the Fierce-eye said. ‘It looks like a substantial portion of the Dark Angels fleet before we even count the rest.’
‘It is their fleet,’ Feingar said. Then his eyes widened. He pointed to a rune many times larger than the rest. ‘Russ,’ he swore. ‘That’s the Rock!
Furyou Miko wrote: Mmhm. A cardinal took six company-strengths of Sisters to Fenris to demand we be allowed to teach the poor, downtrodden locals of Fenris the light of the Emperor... and the Wolves had to call their whole chapter back to stop us landing any missionaries.
You...you...were there?!?
All kidding aside, if this is a 40K "End Times" thing, I'd think it would get a lot more press?
You'd think so Alpharius, but then again the Blood Of Sigmar book in Fantasy got little to no fanfaire as the start of the end of that game. I mean fluff. I mean fun. I mean...
That was a year or more before they started leaking out info on the "actual" End Times.
I can definitely be wrong, so forgive me if I am, but I feel like any other 40k player who used to be a Fantasy player that survived (because thats what it is) the end of Warhammer Fantasy can't be happy about anything that has "end" and "times" in succession attached to it.
Maybe I'm being bitter because my first 40k foray in the early days of 3rd was as a Space Wolf; that fact coloring my judgment is not lost on me. Unless this is leading us to higher tensions and nothing more, I can't see any good coming from this. It adds some fluff to the concept of Imperium-on-Imperium action, and that's all well and good, but if someone at GW saw the rollercoaster reactions to Age of Sigmar and thought to themselves "Lets do that, but to our flagship game" then we should all be a little afraid.
I'm jumping to huge conclusions, but so does the dog who flinches when his abusive master raises a hand.
Gremore wrote: You'd think so Alpharius, but then again the Blood Of Sigmar book in Fantasy got little to no fanfaire as the start of the end of that game. I mean fluff. I mean fun. I mean...
That was a year or more before they started leaking out info on the "actual" End Times.
I can definitely be wrong, so forgive me if I am, but I feel like any other 40k player who used to be a Fantasy player that survived (because thats what it is) the end of Warhammer Fantasy can't be happy about anything that has "end" and "times" in succession attached to it.
Maybe I'm being bitter because my first 40k foray in the early days of 3rd was as a Space Wolf; that fact coloring my judgment is not lost on me. Unless this is leading us to higher tensions and nothing more, I can't see any good coming from this. It adds some fluff to the concept of Imperium-on-Imperium action, and that's all well and good, but if someone at GW saw the rollercoaster reactions to Age of Sigmar and thought to themselves "Lets do that, but to our flagship game" then we should all be a little afraid.
I'm jumping to huge conclusions, but so does the dog who flinches when his abusive master raises a hand.
OK, you make some good - and disturbing! - points.
Mmhm. A cardinal took six company-strengths of Sisters to Fenris to demand we be allowed to teach the poor, downtrodden locals of Fenris the light of the Emperor... and the Wolves had to call their whole chapter back to stop us landing any missionaries.
So if I follow you, the Ecclessiarchy won the war when it failed to break into the Fang, did not manage to cripple the Chapter as a whole and then withdrawn from the Fenris system?
Oh, no, we didn't win. But they did have to try really, really hard to achieve their victory.
Mmhm. A cardinal took six company-strengths of Sisters to Fenris to demand we be allowed to teach the poor, downtrodden locals of Fenris the light of the Emperor... and the Wolves had to call their whole chapter back to stop us landing any missionaries.
So if I follow you, the Ecclessiarchy won the war when it failed to break into the Fang, did not manage to cripple the Chapter as a whole and then withdrawn from the Fenris system?
Oh, no, we didn't win. But they did have to try really, really hard to achieve their victory.
Furyou Miko wrote: Mmhm. A cardinal took six company-strengths of Sisters to Fenris to demand we be allowed to teach the poor, downtrodden locals of Fenris the light of the Emperor... and the Wolves had to call their whole chapter back to stop us landing any missionaries.
I'm a Sisters player and did in fact recreate that scenario in an apoc game a few years back, incidentally - but my use of 'we' is habitual to refer to the Sisterhood with a little bit of in-character rhetoric. ^^;
RazgrizOne wrote:
Sorry if I'm provocative, but you guys may just admit one's faction cannot always win (save if you're playing Tau or Ultramarines)
This, on a thread about Space Wolves, is quite funny.
Not as funny as seeing you "mordre à l'hameçon", Hybrid
On topic, I failed to understand the involvement of the Changelin. I went all around the Internet but I did not find any insight. Does the OP or anyone else has details on its role in this story? Would be great.
Maybe if we're lucky, Space Wolves will turn to Chaos so we can finally learn the ancient secret art of Thunderhammers and Stormshields on the other side.
One can dream.
On a serious note, I look forward to seeing where they take the fluff. I've been talking about advancing the story for quite a while so it's nice to see them stepping out from the bubble and taking some risks.
As soon as someone can tell me how a changling managed to get by the Watchers on the Rock. THEN somehow avoid being felt out by any of the Libbies and finally why have the Grey Knights not noticed.
Quickjager wrote: As soon as someone can tell me how a changling managed to get by the Watchers on the Rock. THEN somehow avoid being felt out by any of the Libbies and finally why have the Grey Knights not noticed.
He's the motherflipping Changeling, that's how.
The Changeling has tea with the Emperor on Tuesdays, sneaking past a bunch of jawas is hardly beyond its abilities.
Alot of fluff material lately has been kinda pointing towards the story line progressing in some fashion. I mean look at the novel of the talon of horus the narrator is on terra pretty much telling the inquisitors that the end times are coming.
Space Wolves win all the time. Cleanse planets, fight off overwhelming odds, blah blah. By past precedent, by the end of this encounter, they'll have the Dark Angels on their side, the Wulfen tamed and their Primarch back.
shinros wrote: Alot of fluff material lately has been kinda pointing towards the story line progressing in some fashion. I mean look at the novel of the talon of horus the narrator is on terra pretty much telling the inquisitors that the end times are coming.
Now this? Something is going to happen.
Almost certainly, especially when you consider that 'nothing' is still 'something'!
shinros wrote: Alot of fluff material lately has been kinda pointing towards the story line progressing in some fashion. I mean look at the novel of the talon of horus the narrator is on terra pretty much telling the inquisitors that the end times are coming.
Now this? Something is going to happen.
"Talon of Horus" is set before The 13th Black Crusade, isn't it?
Was chatting to one of the store managers after his recent Nottingham HQ visit. We got chatting about the fiction and the direction the universe might take.
There seemed to be a general consensus that with Rowboat Girlyman finally starting to heal, and then eventually regaining consciousness, the perception of power would radically shift, causing a great deal of tension throughout the Imperium and then finally, civil war, with SM chapters siding with either the Ultramarine Primarch or the Lords of Terra.
Once the civil war is underway, Abaddon seizes the initiative and launches the 13th crusade. And because the Imperium is divided, the response is slow and unable to stop him. Cadia falls. Chaos grows.
He also thought the timeline will progress beyond the current 39,997 year.
shinros wrote: Alot of fluff material lately has been kinda pointing towards the story line progressing in some fashion. I mean look at the novel of the talon of horus the narrator is on terra pretty much telling the inquisitors that the end times are coming.
Now this? Something is going to happen.
"Talon of Horus" is set before The 13th Black Crusade, isn't it?
The story he is telling is set before the 13th but when the narration is and the time? I think its during or after the 13th since the inquisitors seem desperate to get ANY information on Abbadon and the black legion.
I think some plot progression, but not to much. Once the GK are rescued by the wolves, everyone will realize it was the changeling. Cue sitcom "Oh you!"
There seemed to be a general consensus that with Rowboat Girlyman finally starting to heal, and then eventually regaining consciousness, the perception of power would radically shift, causing a great deal of tension throughout the Imperium and then finally, civil war, with SM chapters siding with either the Ultramarine Primarch or the Lords of Terra.
Its not new that he has started to heal - that's very old fluff?
Once the civil war is underway, Abaddon seizes the initiative and launches the 13th crusade. And because the Imperium is divided, the response is slow and unable to stop him. Cadia falls. Chaos grows.
don't you mean the 14th Crusade?
He also thought the timeline will progress beyond the current 39,997 year.
Also, yes, the 14th. The 13th Black Crusade is currently in-progress.
But is it though? I got out of 40k right at the end of fifth and back in about a year ago, so I still don't fully know which of the Eye Of Terror fluff was retconned.
Is Eldrad still crystallized? Did that lost Craftworld of Maugan's reappear? Is the named Lord of the 13th Company still a thing? Are the Black Obelisks in play?
OR are we back at the beginning of what WOULD be the 13th Crusade, and it's currently "ongoing" but only in its' prenatal form?
Ohhhhhhhhhh the Dark Angels are even the one to give the order to open fire on the wolves. Spoilers obviously.
Spoiler:
Matters are worse than we thought, my lord. Our Librarians report a system-wide Chaos taint.
That was the voice of Asmodai, Master Interrogator-Chaplain.
'And the wolves?' The deep, solemn voice that replied belonged to Azrael himself.
'Degenerate, my lord, as we feared. Vox intercepts suggets these beast-mutants are not merely under the Space Wolves protection. Their own battle-brothers are... Becoming them.'
There was a long pause before Azrael spoke again. When he did, his voice was the cold of drawn steel in winter.
'We have no choice then. Give the order to open fire. Pain before contrition.'
'Pain before contrition,' agreed Asmodai before passing on his lord's command.
Across the Fenris System, lances flared qand bombardment cannons lit with silent fire as the crusade fleet rained fire upon their brother Space Marines.
Lurking in the shadows of his communications pit, the Changeling pictured the carnage, and smiled.
The book end after that. To be continued in part 2.
Quickjager wrote: As soon as someone can tell me how a changling managed to get by the Watchers on the Rock. THEN somehow avoid being felt out by any of the Libbies and finally why have the Grey Knights not noticed.
He's the motherflipping Changeling, that's how.
The Changeling has tea with the Emperor on Tuesdays, sneaking past a bunch of jawas is hardly beyond its abilities.
The Changeling is the Emperor. The whole storyline of 40k is nothing but a massive Tzeentchian plot that went way out of hand, just as planned.
Quickjager wrote: As soon as someone can tell me how a changling managed to get by the Watchers on the Rock. THEN somehow avoid being felt out by any of the Libbies and finally why have the Grey Knights not noticed.
The Changeling managed to infiltrate the Council of Nikaea, so... yeah.
Tells me that the Changeling wont go undetected the whole time. SW and DA teaming up to wreck some demons. Seems as if the TWC + Black Knights combo might even become fluffy
Also, yes, the 14th. The 13th Black Crusade is currently in-progress.
But is it though? I got out of 40k right at the end of fifth and back in about a year ago, so I still don't fully know which of the Eye Of Terror fluff was retconned.
Is Eldrad still crystallized? Did that lost Craftworld of Maugan's reappear? Is the named Lord of the 13th Company still a thing? Are the Black Obelisks in play?
OR are we back at the beginning of what WOULD be the 13th Crusade, and it's currently "ongoing" but only in its' prenatal form?
As far as I'm aware, the timeline is frozen at 'five minutes to Midnight', just before Eldrad boarded the Blackstone Fortress.
Quickjager wrote: As soon as someone can tell me how a changling managed to get by the Watchers on the Rock. THEN somehow avoid being felt out by any of the Libbies and finally why have the Grey Knights not noticed.
The Changeling managed to infiltrate the Council of Nikaea, so... yeah.
wait what? is this true??? where does it say this...?
Furyou Miko wrote: Indeed, which is why the Wolves will win - since they have enough naval assets to destroy every fleet the Imperial Navy has in the whole Segmentum Obscurus at once, and still fend off a Ork Waagh...
Quickjager wrote: As soon as someone can tell me how a changling managed to get by the Watchers on the Rock. THEN somehow avoid being felt out by any of the Libbies and finally why have the Grey Knights not noticed.
The Changeling managed to infiltrate the Council of Nikaea, so... yeah.
wait what? is this true??? where does it say this...?
In Prospero Burns an unnamed Chaos daemon infiltrates the Council of Nikaea and fools the Space Wolves into thinking he's Amon, the equerry to Magnus the Red. It's not explicitly stated it's the Changeling, but it sounds a lot like him.
I'm noticing a trend here. Anyone who gets a new codex and campaign book now get a complementary major pyrrhic victory in the fluff.
Tau: Manage to not get steamrolled at Damocles -> space pope killed, Mechanicus sets space on fire
SW: Find lost company -> Demons everywhere, Fenris bombed
Furyou Miko wrote: Indeed, which is why the Wolves will win - since they have enough naval assets to destroy every fleet the Imperial Navy has in the whole Segmentum Obscurus at once, and still fend off a Ork Waagh...
You sound bitter that Sisters aren't this cool
Pfft. Who mentioned Sisters? I'm indignant on behalf of the Imperial Navy here.
Sisters are way cooler than Space Wolves any day of the week, there's just no point comparing them.
Yeah, but the wolf are wolfier. That's kind of their shtick. If you want to do anything with a wolf, you'd rather call a space wolf. Except if it is purging the wolf, purifying the wolf, setting the wolf on fire, immolating the wolf, getting the wolf to repent from all his current and past heresies, and possibly even castrating the wolf. But still, Space Wolfs are better at making the wolf pull a sledge!
So the Dark Angels are acting as the unwitting pawns of the Changeling to purge perceived Chaos taint? Yikes! Kinda goes to reaffirm just how wrong the Inquisition was about the Wolves.
Not sure why the Sisters would resent the Wolves repelling what turned out to be an unfounded invasion but be totally okay with the GKs slaughtering and wearing their blood because they thought the Sisters couldn't handle a mission, but whatever. The Inquisition doesn't seem to be up to thwarting Tzeentchian schemes and anymore seems to show a desire for slaughter up there with Khorne. No doubt Draigo will be along to sort this out any minute....
On the subject of this being a precursor to the GW putting the 40k fluff in the 'End of times' I pulled this from a data slate.
Quoted...
"As the End Times draw close, Be'lakor once again musters his power in the shadows, standing in the shadow of Abaddon the Despolier as he embarks upon his 13th Black Crusade."
jmurph wrote: Not sure why the Sisters would resent the Wolves repelling what turned out to be an unfounded invasion but be totally okay with the GKs slaughtering and wearing their blood because they thought the Sisters couldn't handle a mission, but whatever. The Inquisition doesn't seem to be up to thwarting Tzeentchian schemes and anymore seems to show a desire for slaughter up there with Khorne. No doubt Draigo will be along to sort this out any minute....
Not sure what you are talking about. And just in case, I feel like pointing out that the Inquisition and the Sisters are too completely different organizations, with completely different goals and all.
Furyou Miko wrote: Indeed, which is why the Wolves will win - since they have enough naval assets to destroy every fleet the Imperial Navy has in the whole Segmentum Obscurus at once, and still fend off a Ork Waagh...
You sound bitter that Sisters aren't this cool
Space Wolves were cool, once upon a time. Now? Now they've been written into Stupid. Wolfy McWolfwolf, Son of Wolf, from Wolftown, of the Wolfhampton Wolves.
They are also hypocritical, which is actually a really good flaw for them to have, except that no one (let alone Black Library) recognizes it for what it is. Russ purged the Thousand Sons for breaking the Edict of Nikea... never mind the fact that the Rune Priests of the Space Wolves are *also* psykers, and the only reason Russ didn't throw them out (per the Emperor's orders) is either because he's 1) Really, really fething stupid or 2) A big ol' furry hypocrite.
The claim is that the Rune Priests aren't actually psykers, instead "drawing upon the primal, natural forces of Fenris." Ehm... that's Sorcery. Straight-up, Warp-based arcane spell casting, with grimoires, blood, bones and ritual sacrifice.. That's actually worse than being a psyker, since psychic expression is a genetic condition, whereas sorcery requires the willing study of Black Magic and Warp-Craft.
So, either the Rune Priests are Psykers, and they've been living a lie for ten thousand years... or they're Sorcerers, which means they're Warp-dabblers and daemon-binders, and have been knowingly lying about it all this time, going so far as to attack the organizations of the Imperium charged with eradicating such Warp-spawned taint.
Furyou Miko wrote: Indeed, which is why the Wolves will win - since they have enough naval assets to destroy every fleet the Imperial Navy has in the whole Segmentum Obscurus at once, and still fend off a Ork Waagh...
You sound bitter that Sisters aren't this cool
Space Wolves were cool, once upon a time. Now? Now they've been written into Stupid. Wolfy McWolfwolf, Son of Wolf, from Wolftown, of the Wolfhampton Wolves.
They are also hypocritical, which is actually a really good flaw for them to have, except that no one (let alone Black Library) recognizes it for what it is. Russ purged the Thousand Sons for breaking the Edict of Nikea... never mind the fact that the Rune Priests of the Space Wolves are *also* psykers, and the only reason Russ didn't throw them out (per the Emperor's orders) is either because he's 1) Really, really fething stupid or 2) A big ol' furry hypocrite.
The claim is that the Rune Priests aren't actually psykers, instead "drawing upon the primal, natural forces of Fenris." Ehm... that's Sorcery. Straight-up, Warp-based arcane spell casting, with grimoires, blood, bones and ritual sacrifice.. That's actually worse than being a psyker, since psychic expression is a genetic condition, whereas sorcery requires the willing study of Black Magic and Warp-Craft.
So, either the Rune Priests are Psykers, and they've been living a lie for ten thousand years... or they're Sorcerers, which means they're Warp-dabblers and daemon-binders, and have been knowingly lying about it all this time, going so far as to attack the organizations of the Imperium charged with eradicating such Warp-spawned taint.
Furyou Miko wrote: Indeed, which is why the Wolves will win - since they have enough naval assets to destroy every fleet the Imperial Navy has in the whole Segmentum Obscurus at once, and still fend off a Ork Waagh...
You sound bitter that Sisters aren't this cool
Space Wolves were cool, once upon a time. Now? Now they've been written into Stupid. Wolfy McWolfwolf, Son of Wolf, from Wolftown, of the Wolfhampton Wolves.
They are also hypocritical, which is actually a really good flaw for them to have, except that no one (let alone Black Library) recognizes it for what it is. Russ purged the Thousand Sons for breaking the Edict of Nikea... never mind the fact that the Rune Priests of the Space Wolves are *also* psykers, and the only reason Russ didn't throw them out (per the Emperor's orders) is either because he's 1) Really, really fething stupid or 2) A big ol' furry hypocrite.
The claim is that the Rune Priests aren't actually psykers, instead "drawing upon the primal, natural forces of Fenris." Ehm... that's Sorcery. Straight-up, Warp-based arcane spell casting, with grimoires, blood, bones and ritual sacrifice.. That's actually worse than being a psyker, since psychic expression is a genetic condition, whereas sorcery requires the willing study of Black Magic and Warp-Craft.
So, either the Rune Priests are Psykers, and they've been living a lie for ten thousand years... or they're Sorcerers, which means they're Warp-dabblers and daemon-binders, and have been knowingly lying about it all this time, going so far as to attack the organizations of the Imperium charged with eradicating such Warp-spawned taint.
Or, just maybe, they arn't psychers as defined by the Edict. I've thrown this challenge out every single time this idea comes up. Find me one. One single reference in any GW fluff piece of a Rune Priest falling to Chaos. Heck, find me one single instance of a Wolf Priest (in the fluff, not table top rules) of them even suffering a perils of the Warp like effect. There has been tons of fluff however showing that the SW talismans and their oral traditions of spell casting have actually strong protections against Chaos and other psychic powers. Makes me wonder how something can be so resistance to the warp and still be part of the warp.
The biggest support that I can come up with that Rune Preists are not psychers is that even after breaking the Edict, the Big E didn't raise a finger nor a single word of... No... no... This includes you too Russ. You little scamp. You get your guys in line too. If the all knowing and all powerful Emperor didn't have an issue with them keeping their rune priests on the battlefield in his time, I think that give a lot of weight to the idea that maybe there is something different about these guys.
Jayden63 wrote: Find me one. One single reference in any GW fluff piece of a Rune Priest falling to Chaos.
Challenge time? Find me one, one single reference of a stormtrooper/scion falling to Chaos. Or else stormtroopers are immune to Chaos. Find me one, one single reference to a whiteshield falling to Chaos. Else, the gunbabies are confirmed immune to Chaos.
Jayden63 wrote: Find me one. One single reference in any GW fluff piece of a Rune Priest falling to Chaos.
There might be one following Huron Blackheart - I'll dig out the book and check.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Challenge time? Find me one, one single reference of a stormtrooper/scion falling to Chaos. Or else stormtroopers are immune to Chaos. Find me one, one single reference to a whiteshield falling to Chaos. Else, the gunbabies are confirmed immune to Chaos.
Cain's Last Stand? Stormtroopers & Sisters fall (kind of...)
Jayden63 wrote: Find me one. One single reference in any GW fluff piece of a Rune Priest falling to Chaos.
There might be one following Huron Blackheart - I'll dig out the book and check.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Challenge time? Find me one, one single reference of a stormtrooper/scion falling to Chaos. Or else stormtroopers are immune to Chaos. Find me one, one single reference to a whiteshield falling to Chaos. Else, the gunbabies are confirmed immune to Chaos.
Cain's Last Stand? Stormtroopers & Sisters fall (kind of...)
Cains Last Stand
They did not actualy fall - I would contend psychic mind control is different - in that sepcific case were not able to make a conscious descion to fall or not fall.
There have been a number of Space Wolves who joined Blackheart by choice - in fact entire ships IIRC? Not sure if anyRune Priests amongst them
Re the Nikea edict - the Space Wolves and White Scars carried on pretty much as normal as they were "different"
beast_gts wrote: Cain's Last Stand? Stormtroopers & Sisters fall (kind of...)
Beside what has already been mentioned, still lacking Whiteshields. Those are immune to Chaos. Also immune to the flu and immune to being dropped into grox dung.
Furyou Miko wrote: Mmhm. A cardinal took six company-strengths of Sisters to Fenris to demand we be allowed to teach the poor, downtrodden locals of Fenris the light of the Emperor... and the Wolves had to call their whole chapter back to stop us landing any missionaries.
I'm curious, was this expanded on in a Black Library novel? The Codices only mention it as three Orders of Sisters. The Space Wolf Codex and Champions of Fenris merely mention that the war lasted three weeks before the Ecclesiarchy decided to withdraw, with no information on how many Wolves where defending Fenris. Unless I've missed something, the Sisters Codex doesn't include any more mentions on the size of the Space Wolf force.
So I don't know if anyone has seen the artwork yet, but this is how the Dark Angels roll... For context the ships alongside are cruisers and battleships... Behold The Rock!
angelofvengeance wrote: So I don't know if anyone has seen the artwork yet, but this is how the Dark Angels roll... For context the ships alongside are cruisers and battleships... Behold The Rock!
Did you see the last page of the 1st Damocles Campaign book - there were hundreds of capital ships in a massively over the top pic - bit like here - they did nothing in that story either - by and large its the Marines that matter.
Also the perspective is (as often the case in 40k artwork) somewhat odd. Lastly the Space Wolves alone, at least according to their Codex have more ships that even this pic shows...
Unless I miss my guess by the end of the second pack nothing will really have changed except:
Some stuff got blown up on Fenris (been there done that)
Some of the other planets that nothing happens on and don’t matter get blasted.
The Dark Angels sulk and preach a bit
The Wovles shout and rage a bit
The Grey Knights are stoic and look disapproving
Some Knights and Guard will look embarrassed to be there
The Wulfen stick around
The universe moves on as none of the above make any real difference
I refuse to believe that the Space Wolves, who have the equivalent of a Segmentum Battlefleet, have lost Void Superiority to a couple of SM Chapters, of all things. Unless, of course, the Space Wolf fleet was actively engaged in several hundred missions across he Galaxy like it always is, in which case the Space Wolves lost their home-planet because they were doing their jobs as SM... Getting attacked for being heretics when they're out purging heretics
dusara217 wrote: I refuse to believe that the Space Wolves, who have the equivalent of a Segmentum Battlefleet, have lost Void Superiority to a couple of SM Chapters, of all things. Unless, of course, the Space Wolf fleet was actively engaged in several hundred missions across he Galaxy like it always is, in which case the Space Wolves lost their home-planet because they were doing their jobs as SM... Getting attacked for being heretics when they're out purging heretics
They also have several Ramalies class starforts..........yeah really.
If the plot needs them to loose void superiroity despite thier incredably huge void resources - they will. (Or suddenly they never had them just five ships and the numbers in the last codex were wrong)
(i can never get the spellchecker to work on this computer)
dusara217 wrote: I refuse to believe that the Space Wolves, who have the equivalent of a Segmentum Battlefleet, have lost Void Superiority to a couple of SM Chapters, of all things. Unless, of course, the Space Wolf fleet was actively engaged in several hundred missions across he Galaxy like it always is, in which case the Space Wolves lost their home-planet because they were doing their jobs as SM... Getting attacked for being heretics when they're out purging heretics
They also have several Ramalies class starforts..........yeah really.
If the plot needs them to loose void superiroity despite thier incredably huge void resources - they will. (Or suddenly they never had them just five ships and the numbers in the last codex were wrong)
(i can never get the spellchecker to work on this computer)
Well, clearly, said starforts were out assisting the Plothole Crusades of the Plothole Star Cluster,
dusara217 wrote: I refuse to believe that the Space Wolves, who have the equivalent of a Segmentum Battlefleet, have lost Void Superiority to a couple of SM Chapters, of all things. Unless, of course, the Space Wolf fleet was actively engaged in several hundred missions across he Galaxy like it always is, in which case the Space Wolves lost their home-planet because they were doing their jobs as SM... Getting attacked for being heretics when they're out purging heretics
They also have several Ramalies class starforts..........yeah really.
If the plot needs them to loose void superiroity despite thier incredably huge void resources - they will. (Or suddenly they never had them just five ships and the numbers in the last codex were wrong)
(i can never get the spellchecker to work on this computer)
Well, clearly, said starforts were out assisting the Plothole Crusades of the Plothole Star Cluster,
Or they broke down - or the Rock one shots them - or stuff....................
oldzoggy wrote:If I am not mistaken these are exactly the space wolves that went on killing grey knights the last time they where in real space.
Can't blame them. The wolves and every survivor of Armageddon deserves to put a round in a GK's skull. They are traitors and cowards.
Vaktathi wrote:While on the one hand I would not mind seeing the SW's destroyed and removed from the background (given how atrocious they've become as a faction), it feels both lazy and anti-climactic to have this occur as a result of loyalist forces turning on them, if it's going to happen, the Thousand Sons *should* have that victory...that's really the only way to wrap up that story "correctly".
I'd rather save the SW's and watch the GK's get wiped from existence. as their background is ten times worse then the wolves has ever been. They are the lazy written, Super-Mary Sues of the 40K universe.
Psienesis wrote:Someone just virus bomb that iceball and be fething done with it.
Furyou Miko wrote: Indeed, which is why the Wolves will win - since they have enough naval assets to destroy every fleet the Imperial Navy has in the whole Segmentum Obscurus at once, and still fend off a Ork Waagh...
You sound bitter that Sisters aren't this cool
Pfft. Who mentioned Sisters? I'm indignant on behalf of the Imperial Navy here.
Sisters are way cooler than Space Wolves any day of the week, there's just no point comparing them.
Sisters and Wolves are both awesome, and since both got royally they should ally and purge the cowards, so real daemon slayers can step up.
angelofvengeance wrote:So I don't know if anyone has seen the artwork yet, but this is how the Dark Angels roll... For context the ships alongside are cruisers and battleships... Behold The Rock!
I thought the Rock was an actual you know...rock? Like a hollowed out planet sized asteroid fitted with engines and guns.
But Titan is an empty planet, there is nothing to bomb there!
KingmanHighborn wrote: I thought the Rock was an actual you know...rock? Like a hollowed out planet sized asteroid fitted with engines and guns.
I think you are confusing things a bit. The rok is “a large hollowed out asteroid fitted with guns, engines, guns, targeting systems and some more guns” that is used by a green army. The Rock used to be “a large hollowed out asteroid fitted with guns, engines, guns, targeting systems and some more guns” that is used by a green army too, but then the Orks took a hint from GW and sent the Dark Angels a Cease and desist letter. I mean, if that was not blatant stealing, what is?
Can't blame them. The wolves and every survivor of Armageddon deserves to put a round in a GK's skull. They are traitors and cowards.
The survivors of Armageddon were liabilities. Any one of them be corrupted by Chaos knowingly or unknowingly. It's the big part of the Inquisition. They kill millions to save billions.
I'd rather save the SW's and watch the GK's get wiped from existence. as their background is ten times worse then the wolves has ever been. They are the lazy written, Super-Mary Sues of the 40K universe.
I'd disagree with this. The Grey Knight background makes Chaos seem weaker like they
I thought the Rock was an actual you know...rock? Like a hollowed out planet sized asteroid fitted with engines and guns.
Can't blame them. The wolves and every survivor of Armageddon deserves to put a round in a GK's skull. They are traitors and cowards.
The survivors of Armageddon were liabilities. Any one of them be corrupted by Chaos knowingly or unknowingly. It's the big part of the Inquisition. They kill millions to save billions.
I agree completely. The Inquisition is much like an Insurance company,"how many lives do we need to pay to keep from losing all of them?" The issue is, of course, that most people are looking at this from the perspective of a rich man, who doesn't see the point in paying that much money for insurance, when he can just pay it himself, until the day comes that he gets sued for several million dollars, and he goes bankrupt because of his lack of insurance.
dusara217 wrote: I refuse to believe that the Space Wolves, who have the equivalent of a Segmentum Battlefleet, have lost Void Superiority to a couple of SM Chapters, of all things. Unless, of course, the Space Wolf fleet was actively engaged in several hundred missions across he Galaxy like it always is, in which case the Space Wolves lost their home-planet because they were doing their jobs as SM... Getting attacked for being heretics when they're out purging heretics
No they don't. The Space Wolves Codex gave us a complete number of their ships. It is impressive, but it's not the size of a Segmentum Fleet, and it's horribly outclassed by the Rock (which is powerful enough to fight off an entire legion fleet).
dusara217 wrote: I refuse to believe that the Space Wolves, who have the equivalent of a Segmentum Battlefleet, have lost Void Superiority to a couple of SM Chapters, of all things. Unless, of course, the Space Wolf fleet was actively engaged in several hundred missions across he Galaxy like it always is, in which case the Space Wolves lost their home-planet because they were doing their jobs as SM... Getting attacked for being heretics when they're out purging heretics
No they don't. The Space Wolves Codex gave us a complete number of their ships. It is impressive, but it's not the size of a Segmentum Fleet, and it's horribly outclassed by the Rock (which is powerful enough to fight off an entire legion fleet).
The hyperbole appears to have been lost in translation... the SW fleet might as well have been a Segmentum Battlefleet, as far as SM fleets are concerned, due to the fact that it's several orders of magnitude larger than just about any other SM Fleet. As for the Rock, what evidence do you have that it could fight off a Legion Fleet, of all things, which includes fething Gloriana-class Void Craft. Now, if you, too, were using Hyperbole, what makes you think that the Rock could singlehandedly take on the Space Wolf fleet, which - wow, I just looked back at the 7e SW Codex, and it has half the amount of Star Forts, in this one, then it had in 5e :(. Also, the only example of the Rock's power was when it (and an entire fleet of DA ships) tipped the scales of a pitched battle between the IN and the Eldar, in which the Rock took down a Capital Ship and a half dozen escorts, which really isn't any more impressive than another ship of similar renown, such as an Ark Mechanicus or Ramilles Star-Fort.
But Titan is an empty planet, there is nothing to bomb there!
KingmanHighborn wrote: I thought the Rock was an actual you know...rock? Like a hollowed out planet sized asteroid fitted with engines and guns.
I think you are confusing things a bit. The rok is “a large hollowed out asteroid fitted with guns, engines, guns, targeting systems and some more guns” that is used by a green army. The Rock used to be “a large hollowed out asteroid fitted with guns, engines, guns, targeting systems and some more guns” that is used by a green army too, but then the Orks took a hint from GW and sent the Dark Angels a Cease and desist letter. I mean, if that was not blatant stealing, what is?
Can't blame them. The wolves and every survivor of Armageddon deserves to put a round in a GK's skull. They are traitors and cowards.
The survivors of Armageddon were liabilities. Any one of them be corrupted by Chaos knowingly or unknowingly. It's the big part of the Inquisition. They kill millions to save billions.
I'd rather save the SW's and watch the GK's get wiped from existence. as their background is ten times worse then the wolves has ever been. They are the lazy written, Super-Mary Sues of the 40K universe.
I'd disagree with this. The Grey Knight background makes Chaos seem weaker like they
I thought the Rock was an actual you know...rock? Like a hollowed out planet sized asteroid fitted with engines and guns.
A rock doesn't have to to spherical to be fair.
See I disagree. And this to me is what makes them cowards. It was an 'unproved' liability. Their whole 'secrecy' angle is covered by the fact most the survivors would of just thought them to be odd Space Marines, and not even make a big whoop about it. The fact is those people fought tooth and nail against daemons, World Eaters, and a freaking daemon infused Primarch, and held out with the Wolves. The whole dang policy is borked and only ever served Chaos in 1. Getting rid of a whole population that gained experience in fighting them, 2. Caused the Wolves and Grey Knights to weaken themselves. And really how they managed to keep the word from getting out is one of the poorest pieces of lore out there. They not only hunted the survivors that fled down, but destroyed every world they may of contacted. And even then the Wolves were forced to give them up even when they had every advantage in the final moments of the conflict. They should of had whole systems learn of their existence and turn on them from this. But handwave it away cause despite it being 'one' chapter with no second foundings, they could actually dedicate the resources to be everywhere in masse at once.
dusara217 wrote: I refuse to believe that the Space Wolves, who have the equivalent of a Segmentum Battlefleet, have lost Void Superiority to a couple of SM Chapters, of all things. Unless, of course, the Space Wolf fleet was actively engaged in several hundred missions across he Galaxy like it always is, in which case the Space Wolves lost their home-planet because they were doing their jobs as SM... Getting attacked for being heretics when they're out purging heretics
No they don't. The Space Wolves Codex gave us a complete number of their ships. It is impressive, but it's not the size of a Segmentum Fleet, and it's horribly outclassed by the Rock (which is powerful enough to fight off an entire legion fleet).
The hyperbole appears to have been lost in translation... the SW fleet might as well have been a Segmentum Battlefleet, as far as SM fleets are concerned, due to the fact that it's several orders of magnitude larger than just about any other SM Fleet. As for the Rock, what evidence do you have that it could fight off a Legion Fleet, of all things, which includes fething Gloriana-class Void Craft. Now, if you, too, were using Hyperbole, what makes you think that the Rock could singlehandedly take on the Space Wolf fleet, which - wow, I just looked back at the 7e SW Codex, and it has half the amount of Star Forts, in this one, then it had in 5e :(. Also, the only example of the Rock's power was when it (and an entire fleet of DA ships) tipped the scales of a pitched battle between the IN and the Eldar, in which the Rock took down a Capital Ship and a half dozen escorts, which really isn't any more impressive than another ship of similar renown, such as an Ark Mechanicus or Ramilles Star-Fort.
The Rock curb stomped Typhus' fleet in the final book of the Legacy of Caliban series, including the Terminus Est itself. The Rock also only operates at a very minimal level of power. It was only during the assault on the Death Guard fleet that it fully powered up, and when fully powered up it's likely one of, if not the most powerful thing in the Imperium's arsenal save the Phalanx.
dusara217 wrote: Also, the only example of the Rock's power was when it (and an entire fleet of DA ships) tipped the scales of a pitched battle between the IN and the Eldar, in which the Rock took down a Capital Ship and a half dozen escorts, which really isn't any more impressive than another ship of similar renown, such as an Ark Mechanicus or Ramilles Star-Fort.
*groan* No, they did not call it the Battle of Midpoint. Couldn't they have come up with something slightly better?
Anyway, Wyzilla, the chapter's honor is in your hands! Repent! For tomorrow you die!
I know, it was a joke about the amount of secrecy surrounding the Grey Knight. I don't think anyone in 40k that is not an Inquisitor or a Grey Knight (or, possibly, the Emperor) knows that Titan is the Grey Knight base.
Anyone who's flown past it knows there's something there though. You don't put defence satellites and Phobos in place to protect and supply an empty rock.
How many have flown past it? And are the defense satellite not super-stealthed magical archeotech version that you cannot see except if they are actually shooting at you?
Jayden63 wrote: t. I've thrown this challenge out every single time this idea comes up. Find me one. One single reference in any GW fluff piece of a Rune Priest falling to Chaos. .
The survivors of Armageddon were liabilities. Any one of them be corrupted by Chaos knowingly or unknowingly. It's the big part of the Inquisition. They kill millions to save billions.
That kinda falls flat when it's contradicted by the other parts of the fluff that have people fight Chaos and not get purged. the Gaunt's Ghosts series for example, you have Guardsmen fight Chaos Marines and Daemons and not get purged despite doing so on multiple occasions. In fact knowledge of Chaos seems to be pretty common knowledge in the Imperial Guard. I'm pretty sure Cadia doesn't get completely purged every time a Chaos warband launches a raid. Those are just a couple of examples I pulled off the top of my head.
I think the whole piece of fluff with Armageddon really seems like a relic of older 40k lore that got kept around in later editions despite the contradictions of it..
The survivors of Armageddon were liabilities. Any one of them be corrupted by Chaos knowingly or unknowingly. It's the big part of the Inquisition. They kill millions to save billions.
That kinda falls flat when it's contradicted by the other parts of the fluff that have people fight Chaos and not get purged. the Gaunt's Ghosts series for example, you have Guardsmen fight Chaos Marines and Daemons and not get purged despite doing so on multiple occasions. In fact knowledge of Chaos seems to be pretty common knowledge in the Imperial Guard. I'm pretty sure Cadia doesn't get completely purged every time a Chaos warband launches a raid. Those are just a couple of examples I pulled off the top of my head.
I think the whole piece of fluff with Armageddon really seems like a relic of older 40k lore that got kept around in later editions despite the contradictions of it..
That's not fair, Armageddon was a hell scape. Angron, a friggin' Daemon Primarch ripped his way into reality there as well as his entire cadre of personal Bloodthirsters. That's way worse than anything Gaunt has seen as far as I have read (haven't read all of them). The fact the Primarches became Daemons isn't public knowledge, the fact the Grey Knights are real isn't public knowledge and the world just in general got torn to pieces by an overwhelming amount of Khornate Hatred. Armageddon was a special case and the Wolves were foolish to do what they did. The Inquisition tried to burn out the cancer before it spread, that's there job.
As for Cadia, from the Eisenhorn book we know that Chaos Cults spring up on Cadia ALL of the time. There are hundreds of Inquisitors stationed on Cadia who work entirely and only within Cadia to prevent and route out these cults, Armegeddon doesn't get this special treatment.
That's not fair, Armageddon was a hell scape. Angron, a friggin' Daemon Primarch ripped his way into reality there as well as his entire cadre of personal Bloodthirsters. That's way worse than anything Gaunt has seen as far as I have read (haven't read all of them). The fact the Primarches became Daemons isn't public knowledge, the fact the Grey Knights are real isn't public knowledge and the world just in general got torn to pieces by an overwhelming amount of Khornate Hatred. Armageddon was a special case and the Wolves were foolish to do what they did. The Inquisition tried to burn out the cancer before it spread, that's there job.
Gaunt was just an example. (Although in his case he actually spent extensive time on a Chaos-tainted world and even he didn't. get purged) The Cain series has knowledge of Horus and his heresy among regular Guardsmen. Mont'ka has Cadian regiments who have experience fighting Traitor Marines. Various other novels have Guard or non-Astartes characters encounter Chaos, evidently enough that Chaos is known as the "Archenemy".
I suppose one can put forth taking out people who had direct contact with Angron, but anything beyond that strikes me as unnecessary and contradictory to the other lore we are told. I don't buy that all the other people of Armageddon where necessarily beyond saving, or that they even had that much direct contact with Angron himself, who It seems to have been directly confronted by the Grey Knights and the Wolves. The damage to Armageddon evidently wasn't bad enough to resettle the planet. The Inquisition proceeding to hunt down and kill anyone across the galaxy anyone who even had the remotest connection to anyone from Armageddon, exterminating the populations of planets that the Wolves where evacuating refugees too. I would be much bemused if it turned out that the Inquisition ended up killing more Imperial citizens than Angron's hordes ever managed.
(I also think the Grey Knights being secret is pretty stupid as well, but that's beside the point)
It seems to me like the Inquisition jumped the gun on this in an overzealous reaction to things. I mean, don't we even have an entire novel about this? The Emperor's Gift, and it basically boils down to a single arrogant and power-hungry Inquisitor aggravating the situation, with even the Grey Knights under his command feeling ashamed at their actions against the Wolves, calling it the "Months of Shame". It ends with the Inquisition being the ones forced to back off from Fenris and slink away.
While I agree exterminating all the planets that had contact with Refugees was an Inquistorial power play and was unnecessary, it is also completely unforgivable for the Wolves to move against the Inquisition as they did. The Emperor created the Inquisition because they are a human solution to a human problem (even Xenos and Mallus work on the human understanding and impact), Space Marines are not human. They did not understand the danger they put everyone in by letting those refugees go because in their psycho-indoctrinated minds saw the culling as dishonourable.
A khornate daemonic incursion releases waves of hatred and murderlust, as shown by the masses of cultists Angron managed to snatch up on his way to Armegeddon, worlds fell into his hands simply by the bow wave of emotion his presence evoked. So when he poped up on Armegeddon with his full force, it's a fair bet that the majority or citizens on the planet were touched by Chaotic Influence. You forget influence isn't a physical thing, the population doesn't have to come into contact with Chaos to be send mad by it, they just need to be in the proximity.
As for people knowing about the Horus heresy, it seems knowledge is divided. Everyone knows Horus went bad as people use him as a By-word for the Devil or Lucifer (''Horus take you'') and most people know about Traitor Marines. But they don't know about Daemons and ergo don't know about Daemon Primarchs. Of course Guard fight traitor marines, but guard are also heavily monitored by the Commissariate and priests/preachers therefore they are more resistent (or at least more likely to be routed out) to chaotic influences. It's only when something big comes there way, such as Skarbad, Angron or some such that they are out of their depth and considered compromised.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: While I agree exterminating all the planets that had contact with Refugees was an Inquistorial power play and was unnecessary, it is also completely unforgivable for the Wolves to move against the Inquisition as they did. The Emperor created the Inquisition because they are a human solution to a human problem (even Xenos and Mallus work on the human understanding and impact), Space Marines are not human. They did not understand the danger they put everyone in by letting those refugees go because in their psycho-indoctrinated minds saw the culling as dishonourable.
Nah, I have much respect for the Space Wolves for standing up to the Inquisition and actually getting away with it. Those guys are heck of alot more human than many of the "baseline" humans in the Imperium, for which I hold them in high regard. And they had an Inquisitor supporting them as well, so it's not like the Inquisition was even united like that in the novel. I'd also question the whole founding of the Inquisition, given that we have multiple versions of it shrouded in myth.
A khornate daemonic incursion releases waves of hatred and murderlust, as shown by the masses of cultists Angron managed to snatch up on his way to Armegeddon, worlds fell into his hands simply by the bow wave of emotion his presence evoked. So when he poped up on Armegeddon with his full force, it's a fair bet that the majority or citizens on the planet were touched by Chaotic Influence. You forget influence isn't a physical thing, the population doesn't have to come into contact with Chaos to be send mad by it, they just need to be in the proximity.
Can you provide sources and quotes on worlds just going spontaneously traitor in rebellion?
I don't buy that Armageddon was as corrupted as you claim. If it had, there would have been no Imperial forces on the planet to reinforce when the Wolves got there, much less to fight against the Chaotic hordes.
As for people knowing about the Horus heresy, it seems knowledge is divided. Everyone knows Horus went bad as people use him as a By-word for the Devil or Lucifer (''Horus take you'') and most people know about Traitor Marines. But they don't know about Daemons and ergo don't know about Daemon Primarchs. Of course Guard fight traitor marines, but guard are also heavily monitored by the Commissariate and priests/preachers therefore they are more resistent (or at least more likely to be routed out) to chaotic influences. It's only when something big comes there way, such as Skarbad, Angron or some such that they are out of their depth and considered compromised.
Nah, it's retcons of older lore. Gaunt, Cain and others know about Daemons and don't get purged. It's just a relic of older fluff where knowing about Chaos was something that got you purged in the Inquisition. It wasn't as present for many years after 2nd edition, but Mat Ward brought it back in 5th edition and it's caused all sorts of continuity snarls with other sources. According to the Grey Knights Codex, Guardsmen who fight Chaos always get killed after the battle to prevent them from being tainted, never mind all the contradictions in various Black Library.
Really it's just a silly piece of fluff that I personally prefer to disregard when writing lore for my own homebrew narrative.
Apologies if you won't except Lexicantum as a source (it's essentially the 40K wikipedia, accurate in the vast majority but not 100%) but I've lost access to my original books for the week.
Instances of worlds going traitor spontaneously are actually rather frequent and it even occurs in the First War for Armegeddon. ''The insidious effects of Chaos were quickly felt as nearly half the Planetary Defence Force went over to the invaders''. Another example is the Lith from Eisenhorn, a Chaotic artifact that that was uncovered and subsequently turned everyone on the planet into it's cult. A further example is Skarbrand who ''Skarbrand would materialize on the Cadian-held Fortress World of Lutoris Epsilon. His berserk rage would go on to infect all he surveys, driving the Guardsmen defending the planet to turn on each other in mad frenzies''.
Indeed Armegeddon may not of been as corrupt as this, but it had the possibility and the precedence to be. I can totally understand why an Inquisitor wouldn't take the risk, otherwise he'd have to arrange for every single survivor to be psychically checked for corruption.
Gaunt and Cain are undeniably remarkable people. They are also people in high stature who themselves have dealings with the Inquisition, this is a silly argument as they are obviously not to be considered the norm.
I much prefer Chaos this way, it's insidious and warping. It shouldn't be an enemy you can just fight because Chaos *is* the truth ripping down the lie an Imperial Citizen has lived their entire lives. Every day chaos? A cult, traitor legions or a small scale daemonic incurion you can assume Guard can handle themselves. But the big stuff? Of which Angron certainly qualifies, should shred the minds of unprotected men. Not to mention Angron was continuously building warp shrines to Khorne to saturate the earth with warp power enough to keep him materialized.
Once again, Armegeddon was a hell-scape by the end. The Citizens and Guard deployments were compromised.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Apologies if you won't except Lexicantum as a source (it's essentially the 40K wikipedia, accurate in the vast majority but not 100%) but I've lost access to my original books for the week.
If I may be blunt? I don't believe what you say and you are very unlikely to change my opinion on this. If you are trying to convince me to change my stance, then you are quite bluntly wasting your time.
Indeed Armegeddon may not of been as corrupt as this, but it had the possibility and the precedence to be. I can totally understand why an Inquisitor wouldn't take the risk, otherwise he'd have to arrange for every single survivor to be psychically checked for corruption.
Why not? It doesn't seem to be any harder than the process of exterminating them and then resettling it. It certainly should be easier than tracking countless different refugees across a galaxy. IT's not like it would be impossible for the Imperium to do either, as the Imperium does suffer major Chaos invasions without completely purging everything. If Angron and the the daemons are gone then the major threat is gone and any investigation can be handled at leisure.
Gaunt and Cain are undeniably remarkable people. They are also people in high stature who themselves have dealings with the Inquisition, this is a silly argument as they are obviously not to be considered the norm.
I don't consider them to be that remarkable though. Gaunt and Cain aren't more important than an entire planet's worth of people and their soldiers under their common sure as heck aren't. In Gaunt's case that's kinda the point, that he's been passed over promotion before. Those are of course the most immediate examples that spring to mind. Black Library and other lore is rife with Guard engaging Chaos incursions and not getting purged the second the battle is over. Heck, in the Gaunt's Ghosts series they have an entire massive Crusade dedicated to solely fighting a large Chaos-worshiping empire in a Segmentum. We've had examples of planet's under long-term Chaos and daemonic occuption being liberated by Imperial forces and the population is not exterminated to the last man.
I much prefer Chaos this way, it's insidious and warping. It shouldn't be an enemy you can just fight because Chaos *is* the truth ripping down the lie an Imperial Citizen has lived their entire lives. Every day chaos? A cult, traitor legions or a small scale daemonic incurion you can assume Guard can handle themselves. But the big stuff? Of which Angron certainly qualifies, should shred the minds of unprotected men. Not to mention Angron was continuously building warp shrines to Khorne to saturate the earth with warp power enough to keep him materialized.
I don't particularly think that Imperial Citizens live a lie either. Rather I subscribe to the whole "Armor of Contempt" that Ravenor puts out. I don't really think Angron had that much influence. Sure you had Chaos cults present, but Chaos cults are present everywhere in the Imperium. I don't think Angron or his monoliths where anywhere near the majority of the population in question. In fact I don't think the Imperium even knew about the Monoliths given that they where present centuries later.
If Armageddon didn't go over en mass then obviously if was still salvageable. It might have been bad, but I'm not especially convinced it's that worse than any of the other warp incursions that happen and the population isn't slaughtered in mass. Otherwise we would see the entire Segmentum Obscuras routinely purged by the Inquisition after every major daemonic incursion.
The whole exterminate if become aware of Choas falls down in pretty much every piece of other fluff than the oldest incarnation of the Grey Knights and the (IMO) awful 5th Ed Grey Knights - especially when you consider Cadia............
Eye of the Storm (976.M35) - A Warp Storm descends on the Rorn System in the wake of the Pallid Prince and his Daemon host. A squad of Grey Knights are trapped by the storm on the Rorn Primarex shipyard, having destroyed the Pallid Prince and his Warp-iron vessel. Unwilling to risk discovery by the citizens of Rorn III, and denied Warp travel by the storm, the Grey Knights set out into the void at sub-light speeds, the Battle-Brothers entering stasis for their millennia-long voyage back to Titan.
Garanhir Rebellion (649.M40) - A World Eaters warband, under the command of the notorious murderer Dhalahk, launches a mass incursion against the world of Garanhir, intent upon spilling the blood of the faithful in an unprecedented act of veneration of the Blood God. Expecting to find Garanhir unprepared for attack and ripe for the slaughter, what the Khornate Berserkers actually encounter as they charge from the assault ramps of their drop craft is a world already claimed by war, the populace armed and led by the famously militant Inquisitor Malphas Kroh and bolstered by a force of Grey Knights Space Marines. Battle is joined without delay, and while the warriors of Dhalahk make a lethal account of themselves, they are ultimately slain, the entire warband cut down by the defenders.
The Cleansing of Acralem (799.M41) - The notorious Daemon Prince M'kar the Reborn launches an attack on the world of Acralem, seeking to claim it as a throne world from which he can carve an empire. Acting on an Inquisitional request, the Grey Knights spearhead the Imperium's counter-offensive, and in the final battle the young Kaldor Draigo makes his name by banishing the Daemon Prince.
The Raxos Civil War (841.M41)
In all these instances the Grey Knights are trying to save lives and in one of them explicitly avoid taking the lives of civilians who presumably saw Chaos. Armageddon was an outlier in fluff, made just so the Space Wolves could do something heroic and amazing... again.
It was bad writing that was never corroborated with any of the other fluff.
I think the whole thing with Armageddon comes from the fact that one inquisitor went mad. The inquisition would have most likely declared him a traitor like Cryptman. But the Wilves have disobeyed higher authority and the inquisition could not have tollerated it.
The whole exterminate if become aware of Choas falls down in pretty much every piece of other fluff than the oldest incarnation of the Grey Knights and the (IMO) awful 5th Ed Grey Knights - especially when you consider Cadia............
It's a question of aware of the Chaos Gods and the Daemonic.
Gunning down a few thousand frenzied half-mutant barbarians with ill-maintained autoguns and tattoo-ed on stars is not an issue.
Knowing that the gods they shout prayers to are real, actually reward their followers with immortality if only you abandon the Emperor and serve them, and that the 'daemons' warned about in ecclesiarchy mythology are real, can take physical form and walk on the worlds of the Imperium, and are almost unstoppable by any force of arms available to the Imperium - and that even the half-deified Primarchs can be corrupted.... that's an issue.
Given that all backgrounds official written (from the Chaos Attack rulebook for the Battle For Armageddon expansion which first introduced this war onwards) talk about chaos cults and armed revolts, there was a significant cultist presence. Also, given the 'weird stuff' which had occurred, and the warp storm, and daemonic presence, the Inquisition couldn't rule out Angron and his armies having been specifically summoned there - meaning that the chaos cults active on Armageddon weren't just disaffected terrorists and rebels but might include people who actually knew how daemonology and sorcerous ritual worked.
Also note that the surviving monoliths (based off the 3rd war campaign maps) were in deep jungle between primus and secundus. We have never known how many monoliths were constructed on the other continent (swiftly overrun) and were subsequently cleansed by the Imperium's quarantined labour forces.
I think the whole thing with Armageddon comes from the fact that one inquisitor went mad. The inquisition would have most likely declared him a traitor like Cryptman. But the Wilves have disobeyed higher authority and the inquisition could not have tollerated it.
Not in the slightest; exterminate guard regiments who have encountered an extremis-level moral threat is pretty much standard Inquisitorial doctrine and has been since the Inquisition and the Grey Knights has been a thing.
The Inquisitor was not mad in the slightest. That's why Grimnar challenged him on that point at their first meeting; he knew exactly what the Inquisition's orders would be and why but insisted he had the right to change it "Because We're Special."
Also, don't forget, people aren't remembering right what the Inquisition was trying to do.
The deal - which, don't forget, Grimnar agreed to - was that the populace of Armageddon would be spared.
The Inquisition did that. The world was quarantined - essentially the current populace were sterilised and put into forced labour as the 'clean-up crew' and restoring its industry then another generation introduced from off-world to pick up where the industrial capacity of the hive world had been left off.
The forces which were to be liquidated were the guardsmen who'd fought on the Styx/Charon line - which given the way Grimnar fought - specifically pushing the battlefield to the west to avoid the civilians seeing it. The very fact that he felt the need to do that, however, then underlines that trying to evacuate those same soldiers under the wolves' fleets, smacks of a bit hypocritical.
And yet Cadia still sits next to the Eye of Terror and has all the same issues with witnessing as do all the many many examples of Guardsmen (and other Imperial factions) fighting and surviving Daemons and then be lauded for it.
Various Astartes Chapters have feuds with Daemons - so its not like that knowledge is secret. There are quire a few examples that the GK's don't kill all the combatants that have fought Daemons.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Apologies if you won't except Lexicantum as a source (it's essentially the 40K wikipedia, accurate in the vast majority but not 100%) but I've lost access to my original books for the week.
If I may be blunt? I don't believe what you say and you are very unlikely to change my opinion on this. If you are trying to convince me to change my stance, then you are quite bluntly wasting your time.
Well, don't expect that to be anything other than your headcanon, if you're willing to disbelieve that actual canon sources, with proved references, are false. I now have a very hard time taking anything what you say seriously. Even when someone provide you with evidence, you choose to ignore it. Therefore, I could "choose" to ignore any evidence you cite in the form of Gaunt and Cain (Cain, who is a near-parody like figure in the canon)
Indeed Armegeddon may not of been as corrupt as this, but it had the possibility and the precedence to be. I can totally understand why an Inquisitor wouldn't take the risk, otherwise he'd have to arrange for every single survivor to be psychically checked for corruption.
Why not? It doesn't seem to be any harder than the process of exterminating them and then resettling it. It certainly should be easier than tracking countless different refugees across a galaxy. IT's not like it would be impossible for the Imperium to do either, as the Imperium does suffer major Chaos invasions without completely purging everything. If Angron and the the daemons are gone then the major threat is gone and any investigation can be handled at leisure.
Leisure until another cult takes over another planet.
Armageddon's status as a vital world in the area is worth a very thorough cleansing, lest it happen all over again. Plus, blowing up a planet is quicker than searching through all the people on that planet individually, or fighting a war to cleanse it of the Chaos cults you let spread.
Gaunt and Cain are undeniably remarkable people. They are also people in high stature who themselves have dealings with the Inquisition, this is a silly argument as they are obviously not to be considered the norm.
I don't consider them to be that remarkable though. Gaunt and Cain aren't more important than an entire planet's worth of people and their soldiers under their common sure as heck aren't. In Gaunt's case that's kinda the point, that he's been passed over promotion before. Those are of course the most immediate examples that spring to mind. Black Library and other lore is rife with Guard engaging Chaos incursions and not getting purged the second the battle is over. Heck, in the Gaunt's Ghosts series they have an entire massive Crusade dedicated to solely fighting a large Chaos-worshiping empire in a Segmentum. We've had examples of planet's under long-term Chaos and daemonic occuption being liberated by Imperial forces and the population is not exterminated to the last man.
As we see.
Also, they are actually are remarkable, in the very fact we know of them. How many Commissars like them do we know? And how many don't we know? We only hear about the notable ones, the ones with plot armour. If we had a book of the life of a typical Commissar, executions would be far more frequent in the book, and we'd be very lucky to get a sequel. A third book would be near miraculous. They may not be so important in the universe, but they are still notable figures in a literary sense.
My view?
The Inquisitor was overzealous. That much is correct. But at least he had some basis: Chaos is unbelievably corrupting, far more than any of us here could estimate.
The wolves? They caused the loss of life, if only their blind pride could see that they would cause far more damage to the Imperium than a "better safe than sorry" purge. They overstepped their mark, and should have suffered by going against the will of the Emperor's chosen, the Grey Knights and Inquisition. But, because of plot armour, they get away with it. Wolves should have been crippled by the Imperium and made to go on a Penitence Crusade. THAT would have made them more badass and respected by me - not only have they realised their wrongs and been humbled by it, but they could have also survived a Penitence Crusade against Chaos (for extra irony, against World Eaters or Khorne Daemons)
Well, don't expect that to be anything other than your headcanon, if you're willing to disbelieve that actual canon sources, with proved references, are false. I now have a very hard time taking anything what you say seriously. Even when someone provide you with evidence, you choose to ignore it. Therefore, I could "choose" to ignore any evidence you cite in the form of Gaunt and Cain (Cain, who is a near-parody like figure in the canon)
Good for you then. I wasn't really trying to convince anybody of some particular argument. I was just stating my view of things. So yeah, I was stating my headcanon. One of 40k's lore defining features was the vast variety of contradictory fluff and lore, which was essentially my point, that the Armageddon fluff doesn't mesh well with the examples from Gaunt and Cain. So yeah, I am completely fine with ignoring lore I don't like and I'm completely fine with people ignoring lore they don't like. It happens all the time. Half the people on this board prefer to ignore the existence of Mat Ward for example.
I don't consider me warning him to be unreasonable. Such is the internet. People are stubborn. Posters on this forum will rarely change their opinion. I'm sure both me and him are busy people with their own lives who don't want to be stuck in an argument ad nauseum. I think it only fair to warn someone that they are rather bluntly wasting their time.
Leisure until another cult takes over another planet.
Armageddon's status as a vital world in the area is worth a very thorough cleansing, lest it happen all over again. Plus, blowing up a planet is quicker than searching through all the people on that planet individually, or fighting a war to cleanse it of the Chaos cults you let spread.
Preventing said cult is kinda why Inquisitorial investigations exist in the first place.
And no, their not blowing up the planet. Their essentially committing genocide, something that quickly extended to many other planets and systems across the galaxy, something that by scale alone would have been more resource extensive than looking through the population, which almost by definition the Inquisition should have practice with.
Also, they are actually are remarkable, in the very fact we know of them. How many Commissars like them do we know? And how many don't we know? We only hear about the notable ones, the ones with plot armour. If we had a book of the life of a typical Commissar, executions would be far more frequent in the book, and we'd be very lucky to get a sequel. A third book would be near miraculous. They may not be so important in the universe, but they are still notable figures in a literary sense.
Gaunt and Cain are not the example of a typical Commissar, but it's hard to believe that either of them are worth more than a planet. Then we also have the example of their fighting men under their command who do fight Daemons and Chaos Marines without being executed. It also doesn't really ignore the massive anti-Chaos crusade fighting to liberate worlds in the Sabbat worlds that where under Chaos or daemonic domination.
My view?
The Inquisitor was overzealous. That much is correct. But at least he had some basis: Chaos is unbelievably corrupting, far more than any of us here could estimate.
The wolves? They caused the loss of life, if only their blind pride could see that they would cause far more damage to the Imperium than a "better safe than sorry" purge. They overstepped their mark, and should have suffered by going against the will of the Emperor's chosen, the Grey Knights and Inquisition. But, because of plot armour, they get away with it. Wolves should have been crippled by the Imperium and made to go on a Penitence Crusade. THAT would have made them more badass and respected by me - not only have they realised their wrongs and been humbled by it, but they could have also survived a Penitence Crusade against Chaos (for extra irony, against World Eaters or Khorne Daemons)
If that's your opinion, then you are welcome to it.
Suffice to say I do not agree and thus I am fine with dismissing the whole Armageddon business as a silly relic of outdated lore.
Suffice to say I do not agree and thus I am fine with dismissing the whole Armageddon business as a silly relic of outdated lore.
I think it works as
1) An inquisitor making a decision based on certain worries- once made he won't go back on it
2) He is using it as a way to try and back the Wolves into defying the Imperium so they cna be slapped down
3) Its 40k sometimes people do horrible things for dubious reasons or because they think its for the best - hey it happens in our world too........
For the record, I think you may have jumped over my initial point. I proposed Armegeddon as a special case scenario based on the fact Angron was present. Correct me if I am wrong, but this was the largest confrontation between a Daemon Primarch and the loyalists since the heresy (I'm of the opinion this was greater then Magnus materialising on Fenris for a little while) and that to make marks this as a stand
out occurrence. No one here is suggesting Regiments get exterminated for fighting chaos, what we are suggesting is that Angron and the hell he unleashed upon Armegeddon was FAR above a Guardsmen's payscale mentally to be expected to remain uncompromised. Armegeddon was a special case scenario that warranted (or at least partially condoned) the Inquisitors actions where a lesser Daemoninc incursion would not.
I might not be able to change your opinion on that, but it's worth reiterating my initial point in case I blabbled over it and you missed it.
I'd think the fact mortal human men and women held their own against a daemonic Primarch should of earned them respect. At minimum they should of been incorporated as a fighting force into the Inquisition because they held on against Khornate daemons, the best hand to hand combat specialists daemon kind has, with supped up flashlights and knives.
They certainly shouldn't of gotten spayed and neutered, and force worked to death on a dirtball far from the home they FOUGHT TOOTH AND NAIL FOR!
They shouldn't have been hunted down like animals by Grey Knights who were SUPPOSED TO THE SHINING LIGHT against daemonkind.
Instead the Grey Knights CAVED into FEAR of what MIGHT be taint, with NO PROOF. They are for lack of any better words, COWARDS. They are cowards. Pure and simple.
KingmanHighborn wrote: I'd think the fact mortal human men and women held their own against a daemonic Primarch should of earned them respect. At minimum they should of been incorporated as a fighting force into the Inquisition because they held on against Khornate daemons, the best hand to hand combat specialists daemon kind has, with supped up flashlights and knives.
They certainly shouldn't of gotten spayed and neutered, and force worked to death on a dirtball far from the home they FOUGHT TOOTH AND NAIL FOR!
They shouldn't have been hunted down like animals by Grey Knights who were SUPPOSED TO THE SHINING LIGHT against daemonkind.
Instead the Grey Knights CAVED into FEAR of what MIGHT be taint, with NO PROOF. They are for lack of any better words, COWARDS. They are cowards. Pure and simple.
Only, to fight against a daemon primarch is to invite corruption and taint. Sure, they fought well, but you don't survive an encounter with such a powerful entity to escape unaffected. They *could* be trained, but here is a high chance that they are pretty tainted by the encounter. And the Inquisition already HAS a dedicated daemon hunter cadre - the Ordo Malleus and the Grey Knights. Why risk the taint when you already have men perfectly capable, and untaintable (as we know).
Here's my way of looking at it: You have a man with an incredibly infectious disease. He survives the disease, and it doesn't kill him. However, he becomes a host for it's body, and behaviour will warp and change the more he lives. He is identical to your case of Armageddon. He's survived, but is forever a risk to himself and those around him, majorly so. It is no longer in his control, and thus one must be killed to save thousands.
And the Grek Knights ARE the shining light. Of purity. And those tainted by the presence are not pure. The Grey Knights don't do things for the good of Humans, they do it for the good of the Imperium, and thus HUMANITY. And their action is not born out of fear at all. Suppose, a man with a massive nuclear device lodged in his body. The device could go off any second. The device cannot be deactivated or disarmed unless you kill the man it is inside. That bomb might wipe the surface of the world clean or could just be a dud. You are a Grey Knight. What do you do? Are you a coward for saving the planet? Do you want to take the risk that the bomb is only a dud?
What the GK did is not cowardly - brutal, yes, but the Imperium continues due to such brutal and preventive measures.
KingmanHighborn wrote: I'd think the fact mortal human men and women held their own against a daemonic Primarch should of earned them respect. At minimum they should of been incorporated as a fighting force into the Inquisition because they held on against Khornate daemons, the best hand to hand combat specialists daemon kind has, with supped up flashlights and knives.
They certainly shouldn't of gotten spayed and neutered, and force worked to death on a dirtball far from the home they FOUGHT TOOTH AND NAIL FOR!
They shouldn't have been hunted down like animals by Grey Knights who were SUPPOSED TO THE SHINING LIGHT against daemonkind.
Instead the Grey Knights CAVED into FEAR of what MIGHT be taint, with NO PROOF. They are for lack of any better words, COWARDS. They are cowards. Pure and simple.
Only, to fight against a daemon primarch is to invite corruption and taint. Sure, they fought well, but you don't survive an encounter with such a powerful entity to escape unaffected. They *could* be trained, but here is a high chance that they are pretty tainted by the encounter. And the Inquisition already HAS a dedicated daemon hunter cadre - the Ordo Malleus and the Grey Knights. Why risk the taint when you already have men perfectly capable, and untaintable (as we know).
Here's my way of looking at it: You have a man with an incredibly infectious disease. He survives the disease, and it doesn't kill him. However, he becomes a host for it's body, and behaviour will warp and change the more he lives. He is identical to your case of Armageddon. He's survived, but is forever a risk to himself and those around him, majorly so. It is no longer in his control, and thus one must be killed to save thousands.
And the Grek Knights ARE the shining light. Of purity. And those tainted by the presence are not pure. The Grey Knights don't do things for the good of Humans, they do it for the good of the Imperium, and thus HUMANITY. And their action is not born out of fear at all. Suppose, a man with a massive nuclear device lodged in his body. The device could go off any second. The device cannot be deactivated or disarmed unless you kill the man it is inside. That bomb might wipe the surface of the world clean or could just be a dud. You are a Grey Knight. What do you do? Are you a coward for saving the planet? Do you want to take the risk that the bomb is only a dud?
What the GK did is not cowardly - brutal, yes, but the Imperium continues due to such brutal and preventive measures.
No it was cowardly, they had a fear that the people might be tainted, not even proven, or detected, which Inquisitors and trained psykers can root out. Which separates this from a disease. And it certainly wasn't good for humanity to destroy all those planets and resources and manpower the Imperium needs just because of a fear.
The bomb allegory only works if you say he 'might' have a bomb, he 'might' not in his body, but when we scan for it, or do any sort of search there is no evidence of it. Even then 'those that sacrifice freedom for safety deserve neither' (granted freedom in 40 is an alien concept but the point of acting on what ifs and maybes holds true)
EVEN THEN, forced sterilization, ripped from their homes, stripped of everything they owned and shoved into what is basically an Auschwitz on a planetary scale, for people that fought so hard, I feel is cowardly. It's even worse when you realize that if the Grey Knights had it their way, all the credit for winning the war, would of gone to them and them alone. Despite not really doing anything to help while the Wolves and humans did all the real fighting.
That is nice you feel that way, but they felt a different way on what is necessary.
Also all the fluff tells us that you cannot detect the taint of chaos until it either manifests or is unnaturally powerful.
There was a GK book (I forgot which, it was pretty short) where a GK Librarian was having trouble telling whether a Inquisitor was carrying a Chaos relic. All they had to go on was that the Emperor's Tarot stated that a disaster was to occur in that location. Lo and behold the Inquisitor was carrying it. Then on the ship they could not locate the lab a Nurgle plague was coming from. If a Librarian of the Grey Knights was having trouble detecting a strong taint of Chaos, I imagine everyone else is going to have a even worse time processing millions upon millions.
Also this line of yours.
" It's even worse when you realize that if the Grey Knights had it their way, all the credit for winning the war, would of gone to them and them alone. Despite not really doing anything to help while the Wolves and humans did all the real fighting."
BS. They are a secret, there is no glory besides the tolling of the Bell of Lost Souls for their passage. Also the Wolves felt differently in that the Knights were needed. Take it up with them.
Armageddon was a outlier in fluff. No one takes it seriously.
They seek glory for themselves, and one source will have them a big secret and another go "Yeah Grey Knights!" when they arrive.
Still the Ends didn't justify the Means, and they acted on fear. Thus...cowards.
I get annoyed when people down the Wolves, and their sometimes over the top silliness, but then act like the GK are the best thing since sliced bread. Their fluff is god awful, by far and above the worst of all the asartes, At least if you are knee dead in it with a wolf, you don't have to worry him capping you in the back of the head the moment the day is won.
KingmanHighborn wrote: They seek glory for themselves, and one source will have them a big secret and another go "Yeah Grey Knights!" when they arrive.
Still the Ends didn't justify the Means, and they acted on fear. Thus...cowards.
I get annoyed when people down the Wolves, and their sometimes over the top silliness, but then act like the GK are the best thing since sliced bread. Their fluff is god awful, by far and above the worst of all the asartes, At least if you are knee dead in it with a wolf, you don't have to worry him capping you in the back of the head the moment the day is won.
Thats a cool opinion you have on the furry marines. I mean at least the Space Wolves don't go around doing the most inane things and get away with it right?
That's not fair, Armageddon was a hell scape. Angron, a friggin' Daemon Primarch ripped his way into reality there as well as his entire cadre of personal Bloodthirsters. That's way worse than anything Gaunt has seen as far as I have read (haven't read all of them). The fact the Primarches became Daemons isn't public knowledge, the fact the Grey Knights are real isn't public knowledge and the world just in general got torn to pieces by an overwhelming amount of Khornate Hatred. Armageddon was a special case and the Wolves were foolish to do what they did. The Inquisition tried to burn out the cancer before it spread, that's there job.
Gaunt was just an example. (Although in his case he actually spent extensive time on a Chaos-tainted world and even he didn't. get purged) The Cain series has knowledge of Horus and his heresy among regular Guardsmen. Mont'ka has Cadian regiments who have experience fighting Traitor Marines. Various other novels have Guard or non-Astartes characters encounter Chaos, evidently enough that Chaos is known as the "Archenemy".
I suppose one can put forth taking out people who had direct contact with Angron, but anything beyond that strikes me as unnecessary and contradictory to the other lore we are told. I don't buy that all the other people of Armageddon where necessarily beyond saving, or that they even had that much direct contact with Angron himself, who It seems to have been directly confronted by the Grey Knights and the Wolves. The damage to Armageddon evidently wasn't bad enough to resettle the planet. The Inquisition proceeding to hunt down and kill anyone across the galaxy anyone who even had the remotest connection to anyone from Armageddon, exterminating the populations of planets that the Wolves where evacuating refugees too. I would be much bemused if it turned out that the Inquisition ended up killing more Imperial citizens than Angron's hordes ever managed.
(I also think the Grey Knights being secret is pretty stupid as well, but that's beside the point)
It seems to me like the Inquisition jumped the gun on this in an overzealous reaction to things. I mean, don't we even have an entire novel about this? The Emperor's Gift, and it basically boils down to a single arrogant and power-hungry Inquisitor aggravating the situation, with even the Grey Knights under his command feeling ashamed at their actions against the Wolves, calling it the "Months of Shame". It ends with the Inquisition being the ones forced to back off from Fenris and slink away.
That is because it is the Space Wolves. Who never lose. Ever. You think Ward's hard-on for the Ultramarines was bad? GW has had a raging boner for the Space Wolves since the Chapter was named. Plot Armor? Theirs is kilometers thick.
That's not fair, Armageddon was a hell scape. Angron, a friggin' Daemon Primarch ripped his way into reality there as well as his entire cadre of personal Bloodthirsters. That's way worse than anything Gaunt has seen as far as I have read (haven't read all of them). The fact the Primarches became Daemons isn't public knowledge, the fact the Grey Knights are real isn't public knowledge and the world just in general got torn to pieces by an overwhelming amount of Khornate Hatred. Armageddon was a special case and the Wolves were foolish to do what they did. The Inquisition tried to burn out the cancer before it spread, that's there job.
Gaunt was just an example. (Although in his case he actually spent extensive time on a Chaos-tainted world and even he didn't. get purged) The Cain series has knowledge of Horus and his heresy among regular Guardsmen. Mont'ka has Cadian regiments who have experience fighting Traitor Marines. Various other novels have Guard or non-Astartes characters encounter Chaos, evidently enough that Chaos is known as the "Archenemy".
I suppose one can put forth taking out people who had direct contact with Angron, but anything beyond that strikes me as unnecessary and contradictory to the other lore we are told. I don't buy that all the other people of Armageddon where necessarily beyond saving, or that they even had that much direct contact with Angron himself, who It seems to have been directly confronted by the Grey Knights and the Wolves. The damage to Armageddon evidently wasn't bad enough to resettle the planet. The Inquisition proceeding to hunt down and kill anyone across the galaxy anyone who even had the remotest connection to anyone from Armageddon, exterminating the populations of planets that the Wolves where evacuating refugees too. I would be much bemused if it turned out that the Inquisition ended up killing more Imperial citizens than Angron's hordes ever managed.
(I also think the Grey Knights being secret is pretty stupid as well, but that's beside the point)
It seems to me like the Inquisition jumped the gun on this in an overzealous reaction to things. I mean, don't we even have an entire novel about this? The Emperor's Gift, and it basically boils down to a single arrogant and power-hungry Inquisitor aggravating the situation, with even the Grey Knights under his command feeling ashamed at their actions against the Wolves, calling it the "Months of Shame". It ends with the Inquisition being the ones forced to back off from Fenris and slink away.
That is because it is the Space Wolves. Who never lose. Ever. You think Ward's hard-on for the Ultramarines was bad? GW has had a raging boner for the Space Wolves since the Chapter was named. Plot Armor? Theirs is kilometers thick.
Except for those times when they loose entire battle companies. But we dont count those. But yes, the fluff usually has them loosing guys to monsters and vastly more powerful aliens not your average human-ish opponent.
That's not fair, Armageddon was a hell scape. Angron, a friggin' Daemon Primarch ripped his way into reality there as well as his entire cadre of personal Bloodthirsters. That's way worse than anything Gaunt has seen as far as I have read (haven't read all of them). The fact the Primarches became Daemons isn't public knowledge, the fact the Grey Knights are real isn't public knowledge and the world just in general got torn to pieces by an overwhelming amount of Khornate Hatred. Armageddon was a special case and the Wolves were foolish to do what they did. The Inquisition tried to burn out the cancer before it spread, that's there job.
Gaunt was just an example. (Although in his case he actually spent extensive time on a Chaos-tainted world and even he didn't. get purged) The Cain series has knowledge of Horus and his heresy among regular Guardsmen. Mont'ka has Cadian regiments who have experience fighting Traitor Marines. Various other novels have Guard or non-Astartes characters encounter Chaos, evidently enough that Chaos is known as the "Archenemy".
I suppose one can put forth taking out people who had direct contact with Angron, but anything beyond that strikes me as unnecessary and contradictory to the other lore we are told. I don't buy that all the other people of Armageddon where necessarily beyond saving, or that they even had that much direct contact with Angron himself, who It seems to have been directly confronted by the Grey Knights and the Wolves. The damage to Armageddon evidently wasn't bad enough to resettle the planet. The Inquisition proceeding to hunt down and kill anyone across the galaxy anyone who even had the remotest connection to anyone from Armageddon, exterminating the populations of planets that the Wolves where evacuating refugees too. I would be much bemused if it turned out that the Inquisition ended up killing more Imperial citizens than Angron's hordes ever managed.
(I also think the Grey Knights being secret is pretty stupid as well, but that's beside the point)
It seems to me like the Inquisition jumped the gun on this in an overzealous reaction to things. I mean, don't we even have an entire novel about this? The Emperor's Gift, and it basically boils down to a single arrogant and power-hungry Inquisitor aggravating the situation, with even the Grey Knights under his command feeling ashamed at their actions against the Wolves, calling it the "Months of Shame". It ends with the Inquisition being the ones forced to back off from Fenris and slink away.
That is because it is the Space Wolves. Who never lose. Ever. You think Ward's hard-on for the Ultramarines was bad? GW has had a raging boner for the Space Wolves since the Chapter was named. Plot Armor? Theirs is kilometers thick.
Except for those times when they loose entire battle companies. But we dont count those. But yes, the fluff usually has them loosing guys to monsters and vastly more powerful aliens not your average human-ish opponent.
Can we have the name of those times? Because I remember the way it goes in the SW codex is...
1. Ally dies/Impending disaster
2. Space Wolves are on verge of losing
3. More Space Wolves arrive
4. Victory
5. (optional) Space Wolves fight Allies
KingmanHighborn wrote: Still the Ends didn't justify the Means, and they acted on fear. Thus...cowards.
Tardy to the party, BUT fear =/= cowardice. Also: welcome to the grimdark that is 40k, where the good get screwed and the morally ambiguous have to make gakky decisions.
KingmanHighborn wrote: Actually 'And They Shall Know No Fear;...except in this case, in which they did know fear and acted cowardly on it.
I'm getting the vibe that you're screwing with people, and doing it pretty well all things considered.
Making the decision to end the lives that you just risked yours to save, all so that you can potentially save an exponentially larger number of lives is far from cowardly.
KingmanHighborn wrote: Still the Ends didn't justify the Means, and they acted on fear. Thus...cowards.
Tardy to the party, BUT fear =/= cowardice. Also: welcome to the grimdark that is 40k, where the good get screwed and the morally ambiguous have to make gakky decisions.
KingmanHighborn wrote: Actually 'And They Shall Know No Fear;...except in this case, in which they did know fear and acted cowardly on it.
I'm getting the vibe that you're screwing with people, and doing it pretty well all things considered.
Making the decision to end the lives that you just risked yours to save, all so that you can potentially save an exponentially larger number of lives is far from cowardly.
No I seriously hate the Grey Knights. And again they didn't save the people, and didn't have to kill them, and killed them off in the most brutal inhumane ways possible. It would of been better to die fighting Chaos, then ripped from your home, sterilized and dumped out into a forced labor camp to be worked and starved to death.
What I'm trying to nail home is they acted on a 'maybe', with no good proof, no signs of taint, no nothing, they straight up turned genocidal on them because they were afraid they 'might' be tainted but again their fluff is written that they are such goody goody special snowflakes they can't be corrupted by the same events.
And yet you got people downing the Wolves and keep in mind I don't play them, because of their fluff, and the way their stuff is named. It's mind boggling. There is simply no way what the Grey Knights did could of stayed secret either. But again they are such special infallible Mary Sues, that it irks the out of me.
Well after reading the book, i am happy to see the changling having a bit of fun while standing in the same room as Azrael. Apart from this highlight, it really seemed to me to be a book trying to say how awesome wolves were and how cool and tough they are. The chaos enemies seemed dull and unimaginative which diminishes the efforts and bravery of the wolves. The wolves never seemed in danger at any given time and even came off rather mary sue at times. I guess i have read the book knowing that the wolves, despite having obvious and highly dangerous mutants in their ranks, will still be loyal imperial forces and not excommunicated like other loyal forces of the imperium have been.
What i would like to see is the wolves losing fenris and either going on a penitent crusade or go excommunicated but still loyal to the imperium. What will happenis that the imperial forces will kiss and make up and the wulfen will be quitely ignored cos of plot reasons.
Also bjorn fighting on the astral plane....... Dafudge???
KingmanHighborn wrote: It would of been better to die fighting Chaos, then ripped from your home, sterilized and dumped out into a forced labor camp to be worked and starved to death.
You assume having chaos have their way with them isn't worse fate than death...
...Also you are assuming that it's not going to result in even worse shape for rest of the humanity.
Imperium operates on the assumption that better 1 to suffer than 10,000. They have manpower to spare so they rather waste human life than take chance with worse result. That's the way whole imperium is geared up.
You have problem with grey knights? Take it up with imperium. They do what the imperium wants. This isn't GK only policy. It's policy of the entire imperium. No chances whatsoever with chaos. Better to lose millions than risk it. They can afford to lose the millions.
KingmanHighborn wrote: Actually 'And They Shall Know No Fear;...except in this case, in which they did know fear and acted cowardly on it.
I'm getting the vibe that you're screwing with people, and doing it pretty well all things considered.
Making the decision to end the lives that you just risked yours to save, all so that you can potentially save an exponentially larger number of lives is far from cowardly.
No I seriously hate the Grey Knights. And again they didn't save the people, and didn't have to kill them, and killed them off in the most brutal inhumane ways possible. It would of been better to die fighting Chaos, then ripped from your home, sterilized and dumped out into a forced labor camp to be worked and starved to death.
What I'm trying to nail home is they acted on a 'maybe', with no good proof, no signs of taint, no nothing, they straight up turned genocidal on them because they were afraid they 'might' be tainted but again their fluff is written that they are such goody goody special snowflakes they can't be corrupted by the same events.
And yet you got people downing the Wolves and keep in mind I don't play them, because of their fluff, and the way their stuff is named. It's mind boggling. There is simply no way what the Grey Knights did could of stayed secret either. But again they are such special infallible Mary Sues, that it irks the out of me.
Welcome to 40K. Acting on a "maybe" is how you survive.
Some pertinent 40k quotes/Imperial Thoughts For the Day:
"Some may question your right to destroy ten billion people. Those who understand realise that you have no right to let them live!"
"There is no place for the weakwilled or hesitant. Only by firm action and resolute faith will mankind survive. No sacrifice is too great. No treachery too small."
"Mercy is the sin of the foolish."
"We are at War with forces too terrible to comprehend. We cannot afford mercy for any of its victims too weak to take the correct course. Mercy destroys us; it weakens us and saps our resolve. Put aside all such thoughts. They are not worthy of Inquisitors in the service of Our Emperor. Praise His name for in our resolve we only reflect his purpose of will."
That's not fair, Armageddon was a hell scape. Angron, a friggin' Daemon Primarch ripped his way into reality there as well as his entire cadre of personal Bloodthirsters. That's way worse than anything Gaunt has seen as far as I have read (haven't read all of them). The fact the Primarches became Daemons isn't public knowledge, the fact the Grey Knights are real isn't public knowledge and the world just in general got torn to pieces by an overwhelming amount of Khornate Hatred. Armageddon was a special case and the Wolves were foolish to do what they did. The Inquisition tried to burn out the cancer before it spread, that's there job.
Gaunt was just an example. (Although in his case he actually spent extensive time on a Chaos-tainted world and even he didn't. get purged) The Cain series has knowledge of Horus and his heresy among regular Guardsmen. Mont'ka has Cadian regiments who have experience fighting Traitor Marines. Various other novels have Guard or non-Astartes characters encounter Chaos, evidently enough that Chaos is known as the "Archenemy".
I suppose one can put forth taking out people who had direct contact with Angron, but anything beyond that strikes me as unnecessary and contradictory to the other lore we are told. I don't buy that all the other people of Armageddon where necessarily beyond saving, or that they even had that much direct contact with Angron himself, who It seems to have been directly confronted by the Grey Knights and the Wolves. The damage to Armageddon evidently wasn't bad enough to resettle the planet. The Inquisition proceeding to hunt down and kill anyone across the galaxy anyone who even had the remotest connection to anyone from Armageddon, exterminating the populations of planets that the Wolves where evacuating refugees too. I would be much bemused if it turned out that the Inquisition ended up killing more Imperial citizens than Angron's hordes ever managed.
(I also think the Grey Knights being secret is pretty stupid as well, but that's beside the point)
It seems to me like the Inquisition jumped the gun on this in an overzealous reaction to things. I mean, don't we even have an entire novel about this? The Emperor's Gift, and it basically boils down to a single arrogant and power-hungry Inquisitor aggravating the situation, with even the Grey Knights under his command feeling ashamed at their actions against the Wolves, calling it the "Months of Shame". It ends with the Inquisition being the ones forced to back off from Fenris and slink away.
That is because it is the Space Wolves. Who never lose. Ever. You think Ward's hard-on for the Ultramarines was bad? GW has had a raging boner for the Space Wolves since the Chapter was named. Plot Armor? Theirs is kilometers thick.
Except for those times when they loose entire battle companies. But we dont count those. But yes, the fluff usually has them loosing guys to monsters and vastly more powerful aliens not your average human-ish opponent.
And you know what happens when they lose (it's spelled "lose". You loose an arrow, you lose a battle.) those battle companies? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. The continuity of the Chapter is not affected whatsoever. It loses no worlds, no holdings, no ground, no battles, no impact on the galaxy at large in any way, shape or form. Despite suffering "great casualties" to its Great Companies and its naval assets in the battle against the Grey Knights, the Space Wolves are not negatively impacted by these losses. Ever. At all. Not even slightly inconvenienced.
So will this all end with Cypher saving the day and killing the Changeling, then the Dark Angels, Fallen, Space Wolves and Wulfen all join together for a group hug?
That is because it is the Space Wolves. Who never lose. Ever. You think Ward's hard-on for the Ultramarines was bad? GW has had a raging boner for the Space Wolves since the Chapter was named. Plot Armor? Theirs is kilometers thick.
Space Wolves plot armor doesn't tend to bother me as much as the Ultramarines do. The Space Wolves doing incredible stuff tends to come across as awesome and cool while the Ultramarines always come across as forced shilling. I find something very appealing in a chapter that can actually stand up to the Inquisition and send them packing. ( This ties into my disdain of the Inquisition in general and their abuse of power.) Rather than coming across as forced it feels very natural to me. It was pretty satisfying to have Grimnar one-shot the Grey Knight Grand Master who treacherously broke the truce and smashing in the face of the Inquisitor who ordered it all.
I would however, agree that the Emperor's Gift favored the Wolves far more than the supposed protagonists of the novel. Even Hyperion himself basically agrees with that.
Yeah, some people have a dislike for the Inquisition because they do grimdark things, in a grimdark settings. And, I guess, also because the marines cannot bully them around, and some marines players don't like this…
Psienesis wrote: It isn't an abuse of power when your mandate from the God-Emperor of Mankind says "Do whatever it takes. You answer to noone but me."
I don't really believe that either. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely". I don't believe the God-Emperor would have approved the Inquisition in their current form. Nor does every Inquisitor use their power selflessly. We have examples of Inquisitors being corrupted or utilized their powers for less than noble purposes. For example Golesh Heldane or Remeius Stele. So yes, I very much consider that an abuse of power.
That and I don't recall the Emperor making any sort of official proclamation forming the Inquisition. Besides the Emperor telling Malcador to gather ''men of character'' right before he went into battle against Horus. Or has Black Library retconned this? Otherwise I'm largely find with dismissing the Inquisition's authority as largely self-proclaimed.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: And, I guess, also because the marines cannot bully them around, and some marines players don't like this…
Very much the opposite actually. That and I have an inherent distrust for organizations who claim to wield absolute authority. Both in fiction and in real life.
To clarify I don't believe the Marines bully the Inquisition at all. Unless I'm missing some long-standing history of the Inquisition being forced to submit to the whims of the Astartes.
Actually that's the reason Marine players LOVE the Inquisition. They're regular human beings of different backgrounds, and go on dangerous missions to root out the evil that might be there.
Let's look at the facts...
1.) Chaos can corrupt people when they so much as look at it (source: Fear to Tread)
2.) Chaotic Auras are known to cause people to instantaneously turn their coats (at least the Auras of the Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes are)
3.) Chaos taint spreads like a virus
4.) The Inquisition knows this
5.) The Inquisition has infinite authority to do whatever it takes to stop chaos taint from spreading
I don't understand the Inquisition hate. How is it bad to kill 10 million people if 10 billion more get to live because of it? How is it bad to kill those same 10 billion if 10 trillion more get to live for it? Perspective, people. Use it.
dusara217 wrote: Let's look at the facts...
1.) Chaos can corrupt people when they so much as look at it (source: Fear to Tread)
2.) Chaotic Auras are known to cause people to instantaneously turn their coats (at least the Auras of the Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes are)
3.) Chaos taint spreads like a virus
4.) The Inquisition knows this
5.) The Inquisition has infinite authority to do whatever it takes to stop chaos taint from spreading
I don't understand the Inquisition hate. How is it bad to kill 10 million people if 10 billion more get to live because of it? How is it bad to kill those same 10 billion if 10 trillion more get to live for it? Perspective, people. Use it.
Probably the hate comes from being sympathetic. What you say, by all means, makes sense and is logical, but we humans are illogical, and are prone to put ourselves in situations and think "ok, if this happened to me or the ones I love it wouldn't be so cool."
It's kinda hard to see how being castrated and sent to die of exhaustion on forced labor camps for the greater good of humanity canbe accepted by an average person
the average joe citzen is screwed regardless of their "choices" of gods, regime and caffeinated beverage.
The fluff has chaos as being the insidious corrupting force, not sure how you believe that facts 1-3 are disputable, frankly everything in this universe is disputable if you want it to be.
The inquisition doesnt care about the average joe, they worry about worlds and sectors. They operate on prevention being better than the cure, better to kill 1 million soldiers than have those soldiers go and corrupt more soldiers, cities, worlds or even sectors. Cleansing more worlds of the chaos taint would be more costly than those soldiers killed.
Grimnar was a blind fool to think otherwise. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, letting those soldiers go from armaggedon was a mistake.
Bringing it back on topic, the Dark Angels and their allies are correct in asuming that the wulfen are dangerous mutants and that the Space Puppies are corrupt. By the broad definition of corruption use in the setting by the imperium and inquisition, the wulfen are corrupted mutants and should be killed and at very least the wolves sent on a penitent crusade and lose controlling rights of the fenris system.
Leniency is something that the imperium cannot afford.
Bringing it back on topic, the Dark Angels and their allies are correct in asuming that the wulfen are dangerous mutants and that the Space Puppies are corrupt. By the broad definition of corruption use in the setting by the imperium and inquisition, the wulfen are corrupted mutants and should be killed and at very least the wolves sent on a penitent crusade and lose controlling rights of the fenris system.
Leniency is something that the imperium cannot afford.
The thing is how visible things are.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but teeeechnically, Wulfen and Death Company are similar in danger; depending on the fluff Death Company are worse since in some occasions Wulfen revert to "normal" (as normal as an Astartes can be); the problem with Wulfen is that they have visible symptoms whereas the others are only noticeable because of their paint job.
Now, I cannot call the Inquisition "hypocrites" because of this even as a Space Wolves fan, same as I cannot call the same the Vlka because of Rune Priests) mostly because there's one magical word called context. It's easy for us to pass judgement on what happens in the setting with our XX/XXI century mentality and a whole knowledge of cause and effect, while the characters know very little, have a limited scope and even a different morality.
That last point I make is the cause why I get so amused when I read vitriolic posts from people in favour of A and against B (and vice versa); it's almost as silly as when a bunch of people insult and beat the crap of the other bunch because they believe their football team should have a match. At least on the forum only feelings can be hurt, and none can die of injuries :p
Neither Wulfen nor Death Company are strains of Chaos taint. Therefore, neither are a threat. Of course, I'm speaking from the omniscient outsider's POV so...
dusara217 wrote: Neither Wulfen nor Death Company are strains of Chaos taint. Therefore, neither are a threat. Of course, I'm speaking from the omniscient outsider's POV so...
'cept that the 13th company Wulfen have been lost in the warp for ten thousand years...
If I remember some of the lore right Wulfen end up being more resistant to Chaos. There's also the whole thing where being in the Warp doesn't guarantee you'll immediately get corrupted.
dusara217 wrote: Neither Wulfen nor Death Company are strains of Chaos taint. Therefore, neither are a threat. Of course, I'm speaking from the omniscient outsider's POV so...
'cept that the 13th company Wulfen have been lost in the warp for ten thousand years...
Only not all of them are Wulfen (Vulbeye and the priests ain't, may be more), and becoming wulfen is more of a chemical condition with the Canis Helix than chaos corruption, disregard what people within the 40K universe may know or believe
dusara217 wrote: Neither Wulfen nor Death Company are strains of Chaos taint. Therefore, neither are a threat. Of course, I'm speaking from the omniscient outsider's POV so...
'cept that the 13th company Wulfen have been lost in the warp for ten thousand years...
Was it not mentioned in the space wolf books that all of them had gotten yellow eyes, meaning all of the 13th are on the path to becoming Wulfen, as it is irreversible.
Regardless, after what the SW did to the TS the irony is just delicious, although Im prepared for a most disappointing episode of 'the superfriends murder chaos.'
Hrm, so the Imperium accepts highly mutated marines as long as they are free of chaos taint..... Not sure if we are talking about the same imperium here.....
The Death Company is a group of blood crazed marines doing their utmost to die in battle. Not only do the Blood Angels and their successors keep their existance a secret as much as possible, they look like normal marines.
The Wulfen are a bunch of huge marines that look like a wolf/human hybrid and they can cause other space wolves to mutate into a wulfen just by proximity.
So are the Wulfen tainted by chaos, probably not, are they mutants that can affect other space wolves just due to their proximity, yes. Mutants are not tolerated much in the imperium, ratlings, ogryns and squats are tolerated because at their base level they are sub species of the base human genus.
dusara217 wrote: Neither Wulfen nor Death Company are strains of Chaos taint. Therefore, neither are a threat. Of course, I'm speaking from the omniscient outsider's POV so...
'cept that the 13th company Wulfen have been lost in the warp for ten thousand years...
Only not all of them are Wulfen (Vulbeye and the priests ain't, may be more), and becoming wulfen is more of a chemical condition with the Canis Helix than chaos corruption, disregard what people within the 40K universe may know or believe
You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that the important part of my comment was 'wulfen'.
dusara217 wrote: Neither Wulfen nor Death Company are strains of Chaos taint. Therefore, neither are a threat. Of course, I'm speaking from the omniscient outsider's POV so...
'cept that the 13th company Wulfen have been lost in the warp for ten thousand years...
Only not all of them are Wulfen (Vulbeye and the priests ain't, may be more), and becoming wulfen is more of a chemical condition with the Canis Helix than chaos corruption, disregard what people within the 40K universe may know or believe
You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that the important part of my comment was 'wulfen'.
Nah, my brain derped at the phrase's construction and translated it as "the whole 13th Company has gone wulfen"; my bad on that one.
Quickjager wrote: As soon as someone can tell me how a changling managed to get by the Watchers on the Rock. THEN somehow avoid being felt out by any of the Libbies and finally why have the Grey Knights not noticed.
The Changeling managed to infiltrate the Council of Nikaea, so... yeah.
wait what? is this true??? where does it say this...?
In Prospero Burns an unnamed Chaos daemon infiltrates the Council of Nikaea and fools the Space Wolves into thinking he's Amon, the equerry to Magnus the Red. It's not explicitly stated it's the Changeling, but it sounds a lot like him.
That would be the Primordial Creator, not the Changeling. This is acknowledged later on when he takes the form of Horus on Prospero during the invasion and speaks with Hawser.
Furyou Miko wrote: Indeed, which is why the Wolves will win - since they have enough naval assets to destroy every fleet the Imperial Navy has in the whole Segmentum Obscurus at once, and still fend off a Ork Waagh...
You sound bitter that Sisters aren't this cool
Space Wolves were cool, once upon a time. Now? Now they've been written into Stupid. Wolfy McWolfwolf, Son of Wolf, from Wolftown, of the Wolfhampton Wolves.
They are also hypocritical, which is actually a really good flaw for them to have, except that no one (let alone Black Library) recognizes it for what it is. Russ purged the Thousand Sons for breaking the Edict of Nikea... never mind the fact that the Rune Priests of the Space Wolves are *also* psykers, and the only reason Russ didn't throw them out (per the Emperor's orders) is either because he's 1) Really, really fething stupid or 2) A big ol' furry hypocrite.
The claim is that the Rune Priests aren't actually psykers, instead "drawing upon the primal, natural forces of Fenris." Ehm... that's Sorcery. Straight-up, Warp-based arcane spell casting, with grimoires, blood, bones and ritual sacrifice.. That's actually worse than being a psyker, since psychic expression is a genetic condition, whereas sorcery requires the willing study of Black Magic and Warp-Craft.
So, either the Rune Priests are Psykers, and they've been living a lie for ten thousand years... or they're Sorcerers, which means they're Warp-dabblers and daemon-binders, and have been knowingly lying about it all this time, going so far as to attack the organizations of the Imperium charged with eradicating such Warp-spawned taint.
Or the Rune Priests were sanctioned by the Emperor as both the Sisters of Silence and the Custodes fought alongside them on Prospero with absolutely zero punishment meted out to the Wolves afterwards.
Take your hate thataway--------------------------->
Automatically Appended Next Post: One last point to make,
Both the Sisters of Silence and the Custodes fought alongside he Wulfen in Prospero Burns with zero consequence to the Wolves. So despite all the Johnny Come-latelys in the DA thinking the Wolves have fallen to Chaos and mutation and eagerness to begin bombardment of Fenris, it is probably recorded and known by someone very high up in the Imperium/GK/Inquisition that the Wulfen are not of Chaos origin and that will be brought to light at the DA's complete comeuppance.
There seemed to be a general consensus that with Rowboat Girlyman finally starting to heal, and then eventually regaining consciousness, the perception of power would radically shift, causing a great deal of tension throughout the Imperium and then finally, civil war, with SM chapters siding with either the Ultramarine Primarch or the Lords of Terra.
Its not new that he has started to heal - that's very old fluff?
Once the civil war is underway, Abaddon seizes the initiative and launches the 13th crusade. And because the Imperium is divided, the response is slow and unable to stop him. Cadia falls. Chaos grows.
don't you mean the 14th Crusade?
He also thought the timeline will progress beyond the current 39,997 year.
Several BL novels already did so.
Yes, sorry. 14th crusade.
When I say beyond 39,997. I really mean beyond 40,000.
I sense there will be familiar theme over the coming years:
1. Civil war within the Imperium, pitting Chapter against Chapter. The Blood Angels ally with the Space Wolves.
2. Primarchs return.
3. Chaos launches a massive invasion.
4. Terra is threatened.
5. Final stand against Chaos
6. Dante faces Abbadon, wounds him but ultimately falls.
7. The Sanguinor kills Abbadon.
The Cain novels and I think one other have references to events beyond M.41 - authors talk about the 13th Black Crusade as a event in history and about the "later Tyrannic wars"
Nothing really changed
Both the Sisters of Silence and the Custodes fought alongside he Wulfen in Prospero Burns with zero consequence to the Wolves. So despite all the Johnny Come-latelys in the DA thinking the Wolves have fallen to Chaos and mutation and eagerness to begin bombardment of Fenris, it is probably recorded and known by someone very high up in the Imperium/GK/Inquisition that the Wulfen are not of Chaos origin and that will be brought to light at the DA's complete comeuppance.
It may well be recorded and it might have be permissible then but the problem is:
1) Where is it recorded and who knows about it? Who is going to get it to the attacking fleet who just see Fenris as overrun by Daemons and mutants...........which is not actually incorrect from what I can see.......
2) The Inquisition has scores to settle
3) The Dark Angels don't care about anything or anyone other than protecting their secret - bombing Fenris just means that Bjorn can't tell anyone about it..................
love advances in fluff, will have to get this book. Even though I dont want to see 
