It's time to announce the 2016 Team! As many of you know each year the U.S. sends a team overseas to compete in the European Team Championships in August. This is the second year of the revamped qualification system, and the competition was fierce as always. To summarize how the qualification system works again, you can read the article I posted earlier this year regarding how everything works at either of these links:

http://www.torrentoffire.com/6856/team-america-qualification-system-updates-for-2015-2016-season
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2015/04/07/team-america-qualification-system-updates-for-2015-2016-season/

And you can follow us on facebook here: https://www.facebook.com/Team-America-40K-145055442323058/?fref=nf

The results of the qualification circuit are attached to this post. Remember, it's limited to events with 5 or more games, 50 or more players as of day 1, and the final caveat of - someone needs to make me aware of it so I can include the results.
The top 5 from the circuit were offered spots (Nick, Aaron, Justin, Alan, Sean). From here, the last two slots were voted on by the team. Each team member was allowed to propose and justify one person they felt should be on the team, based on their prior contributions, event finishes, or the army they played. Once this was done, a list to vote from was created which included:

Brad Chester
Kurt Clauss
Tyler Devries
Alex Fennel
Frankie Giampapa
Tony Kopach
The voting involved the existing team members (the above five) providing me with a list of their top 3, ranked in order, they'd like to see on the team. I then gave 3 points for being ranked first, 2 for 2nd, and 1 for third, and tallied up the scores. After the voting it was a clear choice, Brad and Kurt got the nod from the team after appearing on every players ballot in some fashion.



Of them, all were able to accept except Sean, who had to bow out this year due to a wedding around the same time. Based on team composition, the results of the above vote, and overall performance this year I then used a Captain's Choice selection to award Sean's spot to Alex Fennel, filling out our ranks with an exceptional Necron player. This left us with our final team:

Andrew Gonyo
Nick Brown
Brad Chester
Aaron Aleong
Justin Curtis
Alan Bajramovic
Alex Fennell
Kurt Clauss
Coach: Tyler Moose DeVries

LVO just finished this past weekend and will be the first event included in the 2016-2017 season to decide the team that will attend the ETC in August 2017. As always if you have any questions don't hesitate to ask!

Thanks everyone,

Andrew Gonyo
Captain America

Looks like a strong team! Way to go, guys!

Congrats to everyone who made the team, how have America performed in the past at this event?

USA should be allowed to field at least two teams imo .

Generally on the upper end in recent years, in 2015 we placed 9th, which was after playing for 2nd place against Sweden in the last match and getting leapfrogged by that many teams due to how close everyone was ranked.

Edit: To give perspective, about 30 nations send a team each year for 40k.

2015 - 9th
2014 - 4th
2013 - 10th
2012 - 19th
2011 - 3rd
2010 - 5th (first year USA attended)

GL team east coast Awesome voting system there.. should make sure you guys keep on the way you are!

iNcontroL wrote:
GL team east coast Awesome voting system there.. should make sure you guys keep on the way you are!

Geoff, not sure the problem you see with the above system, when I revamped it two years ago away from a veteran re-qualification/single event win system it became by far the fairest it's ever been, or can be, to players across the U.S - the east coast currently has the *least* amount of events of any region if I recall correctly. The rules for the system were clearly published (including on FLG) - the top fiveplayers get a spot that they earn via winning, only 2 are voted on. For voting, players valued what they valued, which isn't something I can control. The west coast actually has *more* events listed on the above page then the east coast and had more events in the system as a whole then any other region. It's just that it's primarily east coast and midwest guys winning the midwest and west coast events - there's nothing I can do to help you with that, heck if you look at a recent event like LVO, over half of the top 8 were members of team america (Brad, Aaron, Sean, Alex, Alan) - we didn't vote them into top 8

You nearly made the team this year coming in 7th - so you likely *will* qualify for the team in the next year or two given how you've been rising on the circuit in the last two years, so keep in mind that the people you take jabs at will at some point probably be the people you need to work with when you earn a spot and want to go to Europe to battle it out for 'Murica.

I'd point out this is actually the least east coast the team has been. If you look at the people on it you've got on the team you've got 2 from Illinois, 1 from Indiana, and one from Ohio with the coach coming from Minnesota.

So it's actually a 4/4 split with the alternate/coach tipping the balance to the midwest.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I'd point out this is actually the least east coast the team has been. If you look at the people on it you've got on the team you've got 2 from Illinois, 1 from Indiana, and one from Ohio with the coach coming from Minnesota.

So it's actually a 4/4 split with the alternate/coach tipping the balance to the midwest.

Brad you have been in MN too long. From the west coast the midwest is the east coast. To be more exact I think the point he is making is that there is no one from west of the Mississippi River.

Where is team Canada when you need it, eh?

This helps to show why two teams from USA would better represent the country. Which I think is fair considering the size and population.

You'd get another team not doing as well, etc won't allow it, and you'd get even more negative bs stateside. Andrew's points are valid. People who travel to and do well at the most events generally are on the team. Playing politics to try and discredit a process, captain, or team is not exactly a compelling approach to being considered a quality competitor. I certainly wouldn't want to be represented by such. I do, however, get frustration at doing really well, being qualified, and barely missing the cut. Plus everyone wants to rep their country.

Keep it up, Andrew. I know it's not always a thankful role.

 SkizO wrote:
Where is team Canada when you need it, eh?

Actually I believe Canada is putting together their first team this year for the 40k side! Should be exciting to have another team join in on the fun

And keep in mind guys, as always, I have zero control over how many teams our country gets. The ETC organization is based on FIFA rules, you may not feel it's fair, but that's not something I can impact.

iNcontroL wrote:
GL team east coast Awesome voting system there.. should make sure you guys keep on the way you are!

Maybe the west should quit letting players east of the Mississippi (including England) play in their biggest event being the LVO. They might have a chance at winning one sometime in the future and earning more qualification points.

Well 4 of the top 10 are from west of the Mississippi. Just none of them managed to squeak into the top 5.

And yes Alan. I've been here to long. But east of the Mississippi is hardly east coast.

And the coach/alternate is from west of the Mississippi

It would be awesome to have more west coast players on the team if it worked out, but the process seems pretty fair (only exception you could really take is the "captain's choice" selection to replace someone who could not attend). Almost all of the names are familiar and you couldn't go wrong with most of these!

Regarding the region discussion - I don't think anyone really thinks of the midwest and the east coast as the same region... if they do, they should look into it more because they are extremely different areas! (Just as an aside)

Target wrote:

 SkizO wrote:
Where is team Canada when you need it, eh?

Actually I believe Canada is putting together their first team this year for the 40k side! Should be exciting to have another team join in on the fun

Can confirm.

I'm surprised that you didn't include the results from LVO, since they were finalized before you made this post. It is the most recent event and now the largest. What is your rationale for pushing that event off to next year's qualification?


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Target wrote:

iNcontroL wrote:
GL team east coast Awesome voting system there.. should make sure you guys keep on the way you are!

Geoff, not sure the problem you see with the above system, when I revamped it two years ago away from a veteran re-qualification/single event win system it became by far the fairest it's ever been, or can be, to players across the U.S - the east coast currently has the *least* amount of events of any region if I recall correctly. The rules for the system were clearly published (including on FLG) - the top fiveplayers get a spot that they earn via winning, only 2 are voted on. For voting, players valued what they valued, which isn't something I can control. The west coast actually has *more* events listed on the above page then the east coast and had more events in the system as a whole then any other region. It's just that it's primarily east coast and midwest guys winning the midwest and west coast events - there's nothing I can do to help you with that, heck if you look at a recent event like LVO, over half of the top 8 were members of team america (Brad, Aaron, Sean, Alex, Alan) - we didn't vote them into top 8

You nearly made the team this year coming in 7th - so you likely *will* qualify for the team in the next year or two given how you've been rising on the circuit in the last two years, so keep in mind that the people you take jabs at will at some point probably be the people you need to work with when you earn a spot and want to go to Europe to battle it out for 'Murica.

I'm not Geoff, but I would imagine if I had finished above the 3 members that were voted in and wasn't I'd feel that the process was not fair.

Blackmoor wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
I'd point out this is actually the least east coast the team has been. If you look at the people on it you've got on the team you've got 2 from Illinois, 1 from Indiana, and one from Ohio with the coach coming from Minnesota.

So it's actually a 4/4 split with the alternate/coach tipping the balance to the midwest.

Brad you have been in MN too long. From the west coast the midwest is the east coast. To be more exact I think the point he is making is that there is no one from west of the Mississippi River.

Last time I checked the great Mississippi River does not bisect the United States in the middle of the country geographically, although it is a fair demarcation point based upon the population center.

Dozer Blades wrote:This helps to show why two teams from USA would better represent the country. Which I think is fair considering the size and population.

Agreed.

And, the FIFA team model is a bit antiquated and uses some semantic loopholes to determine who can form teams. Oh, and it has been promulgated by a highly corrupt organization whose primary goal is to line their own pockets. Yes, this is a great reason to support this system of national teams...

MVBrandt wrote:You'd get another team not doing as well, etc won't allow it, and you'd get even more negative bs stateside. Andrew's points are valid. People who travel to and do well at the most events generally are on the team. Playing politics to try and discredit a process, captain, or team is not exactly a compelling approach to being considered a quality competitor. I certainly wouldn't want to be represented by such. I do, however, get frustration at doing really well, being qualified, and barely missing the cut. Plus everyone wants to rep their country.

Keep it up, Andrew. I know it's not always a thankful role.

I'm not knocking Andrew. We went about 8 months since the last update. I could not find updated standings online despite a lot of searching though out the year. A little more transparency for your west coast friends would be helpful. As a TO for a large event I had to search Andrew out to get the event added to his list. There at least a handful of other West Coast GTs with 50+ players not listed (that I can see). I'd wager that most of them aren't aware of the process to become a qualifier. And having become one, it was a bit arbitrary, including sending Andrew my mission packet to determine if it was "too wonky." All of this contributes to a feeling that the system is designed to achieve the results it has been achieving. Perception is as important as reality Mike, especially for those of us on the outside who can only guess at what takes place behind the scenes.

Vegas is included. Last years Vegas. As the qualification process follows a true calendar year not the itc year. You can see it up near my name and nick rose. As the largest event it holds a lot of weight. In fact a bunch of west coast events hold major weight. Alan won bao and wargamescon for big points.

the process is much more transparent than five years ago. It's even easy to track. If players want to get on the team they will ask there tos to send results to Andrew. Or they can contact him themselves and alert him to results they are apart of. Obviously if attendees at an event have no interest in making the squad they won't spread those results to Andrew or whatever captain. He catches most of the big big events and does try to reach out to people scoring well through the year to alert them if they are high in the process so they can make the choice to push onto the team. I know two years ago me and some others on the bubble had a strong push in November of that year rushing to a few last minute big events to try and qualify.

As far as the votes go of course people will vote for those they know who they think fit the team well. But I know for a fact that Frankie from frontline got some votes in that process so was considered for the team. in the end though it's not too complicated go win a couple of these events and you get on the team. Or make friends with me and Alan and I guess nick since the three of us have made the team the last few years and I'm already number one this year for next years qualifying process.

bingo

OrdoSean wrote:
Vegas is included. Last years Vegas. As the qualification process follows a true calendar year not the itc year. You can see it up near my name and nick rose. As the largest event it holds a lot of weight. In fact a bunch of west coast events hold major weight. Alan won bao and wargamescon for big points.

the process is much more transparent than five years ago. It's even easy to track. If players want to get on the team they will ask there tos to send results to Andrew. Or they can contact him themselves and alert him to results they are apart of. Obviously if attendees at an event have no interest in making the squad they won't spread those results to Andrew or whatever captain. He catches most of the big big events and does try to reach out to people scoring well through the year to alert them if they are high in the process so they can make the choice to push onto the team. I know two years ago me and some others on the bubble had a strong push in November of that year rushing to a few last minute big events to try and qualify.

As far as the votes go of course people will vote for those they know who they think fit the team well. But I know for a fact that Frankie from frontline got some votes in that process so was considered for the team. in the end though it's not too complicated go win a couple of these events and you get on the team. Or make friends with me and Alan and I guess nick since the three of us have made the team the last few years and I'm already number one this year for next years qualifying process.

Hey Sean, thanks. For those of us that don't have an inside track, and I don't mean that negatively, none of this is transparent. The only published data I've seen are those two posts that Andrew linked above. I think an event needs to have 50 players and 5 rounds, and not be wonky. Beyond that I'm not seeing a lot of detail on what makes an event a qualifier. Do you know in Andrew screens the ITC event results and adds all events over 50 players for consideration?

Also, neither of the two posts from Spring 2015 makes it clear that qualification is a calendar year. In fact, it starts by talking about the 15-16 season and then later switches to 15 and 16 separately. All of that said, if it is more transparent today than in years past I applaud you all, but I respectfully suggest that you still have a ways to go.

The fact that votes were cast for Frankie, who wasn't even in the top 20 leaves me scratching my head. No offense to Frankie, but you have a whole list of people who had GT wins to choose from.

Regardless, I wish team America the best of luck in Europe again this year. Maybe you'll get to play against Team Puerto Rico and their mercs...

Yeah basically if an event has 50 people and he hears about it or is notified of it it counts. The wonky verbiage basically never comes up but it is there because andrew is one of those people who is thorough and wants the ability to upfront ignore things that are silly. For example if your event was to say declare winners based solely on beard length and handsomeness. He has told me that no event has ever not been counted that had 50 people, that he was alerted of.

I realize that Frankie isn't on top of these lists. I just used that as an example of the blended process which is I think good. With 5 spot being chosen solely on results it a nice thing to have 2 spots that are more or less up to discussion. Thi is the first year that was done previously it was 4 returning players plus 3 qualifiers. So the process has expanded a ton to invite new blood, I made it for the first time last year for example. Frankie got votes because someone who qualified nominated him, the 5 of us got to nominate one person each, and then we each had 3 votes from that list. That kind of nomination process allows to expand past the black and white lines of gt results to the gray realm of player skill which has its good and bad for sure.

He definitely screens Dakka and other places to get as many results as he can. But like I said if there are obscure 50 man events out there it would be up to attendees to contact and let him know.

Andrew has I think made one of the most transparent and open systems around. I've heard talk of some of the other countries processes and some are very unfair. But like you said any system has flaws that can be improved. I've heard that Andrew might be on his last year as captain so it will be interesting to see what plans a new captain will have.

And Geoff you and I need to play at one of these events.

Thanks for the interest everyone, to cover the general thrust of points I see being talked about:

1) The system is always a work in progress, I designed it about a year and a half ago and it's improved from it's first iteration, and I'm sure will improve more going forward. The main thing I need to work on is finding a spot to host it in the future so it's easily accessible. I may beg a mod on here for a stickied post where I can put in updates and leave contact information for new GTs.

2) The list of events on that image above just includes the ones that contributed to the scores of the players on the top 20. The events that were part of the system this year making the 5 round, 50 player cutoff, include:

Las Vegas Open 2015
Tshft Open
DarkStar GT
Renegade Open
Michigan GT
Bay Area Open
Da Boyz GT
NOVA Open 2015
Adepticon 2015 Championships
Battle for Salvation GT
American Team Championships
Adepticon Team Championships
Alamo GT
Railhead Rumble GT
Broadside Bash
Killadelphia
Storm of Silence
WarGames Con
Know No Mercy

I believe that's all of them - let me know if I missed any and I'll make sure to keep an eye out for them next year. The "can't be too wonky" requirement is maybe me just being a bit more casual than I should when talking to TOs, and I'll keep this in mind for the future. I've never not allowed an event that met 5 rounds and 50 players to count. Ever. And I have no plans to. But I want to reserve the right to not allow an event that does something utterly outlandish, as I know we've had ones on the east coast before where the event was basically won by a 2-3 player, and there were all sorts of whacky rules in play during games.

3) Why are people seemingly "passed over" in the qual rankings? The fact of the matter is, what makes a good team isn't necessarily just slapping stickers on the "top" (defined by my arbitrary but trying to be fair system) players and expecting them to do well. I'll try to cover my philosophy a bit below which may give some insights into why the system is set up how it is:

Each army can only be used by one player at the ETC. For example, there can be one Tau player. If a player is using war convo, no one else on the team can use Codex Skiitari, Mechanicus, or any of the other books they utilized. This means that in years past when the team (5th ed) had 3-4 players qualify using Grey Knights, we had 2-3 players who couldn't play their primary army and had to just grab something new. This is why many nations just pick their teams, with no qualifying system. Some others qualify the top couple spots, and then those players pick the rest, and so on - each nation is different. I've attempted with this to make the team fair and accessible (five qualifying spots) but also keep the ability to do some "fixing" as to what armies/players I have to work with.

For this years example, we had three demon players qualify (Alan, Nick, and Justin). All excellent demon players - Alan plays other armies however, he plays War Convo, which is a valid army for the meta right now (downright great), he also plays orks, which lets be frank, we likely won't be taking even with Alan at the helm. Nick and Justin both play no other armies, so this is already something we're having to figure out. Ending the qual process I had:

Andrew - Tau (most of my experience), IG (no), and Gladius (ran it in some RTTs and at Nova, won battlemaster, that's my only real experience with it)
Alan - Demons, Orks (no), War Convo
Nick - Demons
Justin - Demons (smattering of daemonkin)
Aaron - Thunderstar (SW/DA)

I've now got to determine my optimal team composition, and the other codices I likely want are, in no particular order:
Tyranids
Gladius
Necrons
Eldar (How did we not have a primary eldar player qualify?!)

A team is more than the sum of its parts. Any team player can tell you that to win a big team event like the ETC, you need to pick the right people, not just the highest ranked. You need a team that has a strong desire to work together as part of something, to put in the effort planning, and that is going to support each other in a positive manner. Many things are needed to win the ETC, you need a couple people who are great at pairings, you need some crack list designers, you need experienced players that won't choke, etc. When the team voted for who they wanted, these reasons all came into play for who they suggested for the team. I can say that Frankie was suggested for the role of a Gladius player, and because the person who nominated him felt he would put in the effort, work great as a part of the team, and really be a positive impact for us. It's not all about how well you finish - not everyone can attend every event as a player.

Given all of these factors, we assemble the last 2 players to round out the team. After the voting, Kurt and Brad came in as clear choices and had been voted/ranked by every voting player. Kurt was our eldar player last year, does a ton of work list building and organizing our strategy, and in general is just a really positive guy to have on a team - there's a reason he's led the team that won the ATC and Adepticon Teams over the last couple years, and it's not entirely Sean's strong, strong back. Brad on the other hand, due to life and adulting, hasn't attended as many events as most of us, yet still ranked 8th somehow. He's got an extremely long history in the game, and is our anchor for doing pairings on the team, as well as a lot of our team strategy and list building. Both deserved the spots they got.

After all of that, I had one spot open, due to Sean having to drop due to a wedding he's in being the same weekend. I then reviewed my list of armies, and realized of the 7 players I had, I didn't have a single player with real Necron experience. It then wasn't a hard call to look up Alex. For proof of his Necron chops, he was just back in top 8 with them at LVO a week ago. He's also got a huge amount of ETC experience, and in general is a guy that I have faith will bring the right attitude, knowledge, and drive to help the team out this year.

The rest is history! That's your team, how it was composed and my thought process behind it.

4) I've updated my spreadsheet to reflect the BAO discrepancy someone just pointed out to me regarding Geoff's list. He should properly be ranked as #14, behind Matt Shuchman in the above list. I'm glad this doesn't impact our team or the rankings in any consequential way this year, but an illegal list is a serious deal, and is definitely one of the dangers of sourcing information like I do, without knowing specifics that go on at events. If this were to happen and he made the team, the community backlash would be...unfortunate. If this were to happen with his list when he were on the team, it could cost Team America a round loss, and take us out of the competition before we even flew over to Europe. This should also set at ease anyone who felt he was slighted by being passed over, even after reading the above reasons about why we handle the voting spots like we do. How do you think those players who were previously ranked below him would feel if the #6/7 players were automatically included on the team, then they found out he (#7) had an illegal list in one of his contributing events?

5) I refuse to call Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois part of the East Coast. Mostly because I only have two eyes and that leaves four players wanting to punch me for it.

6) It's calendar year, and if I make a stickied Dakka post, I'll make sure to highlight that as well. By doing it Calendar year I get to digest the qual system, offer the spots, handle any that are turned down, and determine preliminary team strategy before going public. Most years I'd like to do this in January, then have 5-6 months to work with the team before lists are due in June, this year I was a bit slow due to real life - sorry guys.

7) FIFA rules are silly and antiquated, but unfortunately not something I can control beyond voicing my opinion when it is discussed on the Captains council, which I have done (same goes for multiple country teams).

8) How long will I be captain?! I told Greg when I took this over I felt no one Captain should, in general, keep the position for more than 2-3 years, and I still feel the same way. New captains bring a new perspective and change that helps us improve. This year or one more will likely be it for me before I pass the torch.

Caveat - I wrote this late and am exhausted, so excuse any typos or rambling, I may edit tomorrow if I notice any - cheers all!


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Sidenote, after typing out the list of events I got the urge to categorize them by region:

West Coast
Las Vegas Open 2015
Tshft Open
Bay Area Open
Broadside Bash
Storm of Silence
Know No Mercy

East Coast
Da Boyz GT
NOVA Open 2015
Battle for Salvation GT
Killadelphia

Midwest
Adepticon 2015 Championships
DarkStar GT
Renegade Open
Michigan GT
American Team Championships
Adepticon Team Championships
Alamo GT
Railhead Rumble GT
WarGames Con

I tossed Texas events in the midwest just because I was trying to stick to three designations. To be more accurate they should likely fall in the southwest, but then I'd have to do more work classifying the North East vs South East and it's late. East Coast scene has definitely seen a downturn this year as 11th Company wasn't run, Templecon missed the 50 player cutoff, and I think one or two others dropped away.

It is my understanding that the organizer of the Darkstar GT is sadly not going to be running it this year.

You may look at Capcon which just took place ...

Hank

yes I at my first tourney taking the war convocation accidentally had 1 extra vanguard. A number of mistakes was made by people on your list as well including nick nanavati (spelling?) screwing over sean at a tourney with improper rules as well... but you don't count that against him because he is obviously a fething talented player and friend. I don't get that excuse from you because we aren't friends and I haven't made it into the clique yet I guess.

Please for god sakes don't embarrass us more by posting stuff like I cheated a major tourney and thus cannot be counted for the team when your entire team snorts cocaine and feths hookers at tourneys while also accidentally cheating from time to time... it's a fething joke.


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ok that script to make me sound less mad and more nerdy is awesome haha

iNcontroL wrote:
yes I at my first tourney taking the war convocation accidentally had 1 extra vanguard. A number of mistakes was made by people on your list as well including nick nanavati (spelling?) screwing over sean at a tourney with improper rules as well... but you don't count that against him because he is obviously a fething talented player and friend. I don't get that excuse from you because we aren't friends and I haven't made it into the clique yet I guess.

Please for god sakes don't embarrass us more by posting stuff like I cheated a major tourney and thus cannot be counted for the team when your entire team snorts cocaine and feths hookers at tourneys while also accidentally cheating from time to time... it's a fething joke.


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ok that script to make me sound less mad and more nerdy is awesome haha

Geoff, I understand that you think when you have an illegal list it's excusable - however so does everyone else, as I doubt your cheating was malicious or intentional. However in your case it was documented, verified, and you acknowledged it on the forums. Sean and Nick misplayed rules, which happens frequently in game, and settled it there. The one time I caught Nick with an incorrect list (about a year ago, templecon) and it was brought to my attention and he acknowledged it, I took away his placing as well. I'm handling this the same way, and thankfully in both cases it hasn't affected whether the player was on the team or not - as you weren't on the team before I chose to remove that result from your rankings for last year.

Frankly, the only one embarrassing himself is you. Your attitude is incredibly poor, as is your behavior online. You've taken a small community, intentionally alienated yourself amongst a group of guys who if you treated like people and not internet screen names on call of duty would have welcomed you, and been intentionally rude to myself whenever given the chance. That, in fact, is the only reason we aren't friends yet.

This threads purpose was to discuss the qualification results, and I think you've had your chance to say your piece regarding how you feel personally wronged. I'd ask you at this time to bow out, unless you have something on topic and pertinent to the qual system as a whole, and not geared towards personal attacks.

Thanks for putting all this work in Gonyo! having been there on the sidelines since you made the team and later became captain, I've seen how much work you put in and how you've made some positive changes to an already good system!

We're getting a little too personal in this thread, lads - please remember that rule #1 of Dakka is "Be Polite". It might be best to take some things to PM if possible - thanks

Target wrote:
1) The system is always a work in progress, I designed it about a year and a half ago and it's improved from it's first iteration, and I'm sure will improve more going forward. The main thing I need to work on is finding a spot to host it in the future so it's easily accessible. I may beg a mod on here for a stickied post where I can put in updates and leave contact information for new GTs.

6) It's calendar year, and if I make a stickied Dakka post, I'll make sure to highlight that as well. By doing it Calendar year I get to digest the qual system, offer the spots, handle any that are turned down, and determine preliminary team strategy before going public. Most years I'd like to do this in January, then have 5-6 months to work with the team before lists are due in June, this year I was a bit slow due to real life - sorry guys.

A sticky thread in the tournament section here is a great idea for information about the ETC qualification process and circuit - if you make such a thread, just PM me and we'll get it sticky'ed up!

Such a thread could be really good for any other system that has national implications, too, such as the ITC circuit, etc. I'll warn you, it's a thankless job, though . Hulksmash has been beavering away updating his Formation & Dataslate sticky since 2014, but you don't always get to see that it's having any impact! Although it seems like this might not need as much regular updating, unless you were to actually be posting standings as the year progressed.

Anyway, a very good idea!

I think people dont like Geoffs online voice.... whats up with that. When I read his posts I just imagine his voice and smile and his head nod and you can then get into the tone of the conversation.

Target wrote:

iNcontroL wrote:
yes I at my first tourney taking the war convocation accidentally had 1 extra vanguard. A number of mistakes was made by people on your list as well including nick nanavati (spelling?) screwing over sean at a tourney with improper rules as well... but you don't count that against him because he is obviously a fething talented player and friend. I don't get that excuse from you because we aren't friends and I haven't made it into the clique yet I guess.

Please for god sakes don't embarrass us more by posting stuff like I cheated a major tourney and thus cannot be counted for the team when your entire team snorts cocaine and feths hookers at tourneys while also accidentally cheating from time to time... it's a fething joke.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ok that script to make me sound less mad and more nerdy is awesome haha

Geoff, I understand that you think when you have an illegal list it's excusable - however so does everyone else, as I doubt your cheating was malicious or intentional. However in your case it was documented, verified, and you acknowledged it on the forums. Sean and Nick misplayed rules, which happens frequently in game, and settled it there. The one time I caught Nick with an incorrect list (about a year ago, templecon) and it was brought to my attention and he acknowledged it, I took away his placing as well. I'm handling this the same way, and thankfully in both cases it hasn't affected whether the player was on the team or not - as you weren't on the team before I chose to remove that result from your rankings for last year.

Frankly, the only one embarrassing himself is you. Your attitude is incredibly poor, as is your behavior online. You've taken a small community, intentionally alienated yourself amongst a group of guys who if you treated like people and not internet screen names on call of duty would have welcomed you, and been intentionally rude to myself whenever given the chance. That, in fact, is the only reason we aren't friends yet.

This threads purpose was to discuss the qualification results, and I think you've had your chance to say your piece regarding how you feel personally wronged. I'd ask you at this time to bow out, unless you have something on topic and pertinent to the qual system as a whole, and not geared towards personal attacks.

Without buying into the back and forward, isn't it more relevent, whether it had a material outcome?

Being one model over, or playing core faction rules wrong in numerous games, either way it should obly rule someone out if it's deliberate, or made a serious material difference. Also, sniping back, about an issue that wasn't a deciding factor inflames the situation.

@Tinbane:

Just regards to the Nick Sean issue I believe is being cited (in game cheating) vs illegal lists, and you're free to disagree with my philosophy, but here it is:

Nick cheated in his game against Sean (last lvo, like a year ago) - he took FNP saves all games on a unit of plague drones from a herald that died on turn 2, and didn't realize it until Sean questioned which one had died on turn 4 or 5. When Sean pointed this out he made Nick pull most (or all?) of his remaining plague drones, which Nick did. This is the cheating that's being referred to. More materially, Nick and Sean were the only players affected, and Sean won this game. They both settled it at the table, with full knowledge of what had happened, and agreed and submitted their score. Further, Nick received no points for LVO because he didn't even place - there was nothing for me to do in this situation.

A list over points, and you can use Geoff's as an example, or Nick's from Templecon, was not something discovered until after. Nick was 5-10 points over due to taking an upgrade he didn't use, similar situation. When I found out, Nicked owned up to it, and I told him I was taking his points. He agreed and accepted it and apologized - and that was that.

Another example - Tony Kopach from 3-4 years ago. Wins NOVA, his list is 3 points over. He gets mercilessly harassed for a year or two and nicknamed "3po" as in 3 points over. He gave back his prize to my knowledge (also keep in mind this was prior to my time as Captain, I don't even think I was on the ETC team yet). An illegal list is an illegal list, and it has consequences. I don't feel Geoff is a bad person for it - mistakes are made, but he also shouldn't accept his 2nd place finish - purely my opinion. Whether it mattered or not, a requirement of the game is to show up with a legal list. His was not, ergo, imo, he lost all of his games. It sucks, but it is what it is. I've done it once too (6-9 months ago?) at an RTT locally. When on an email chain someone asked for my list and I sent it out someone went "you've got one too many of these models dude". I then apologized in the email thread and at the next RTT, took my licks, handed back my award , and gave up another certificate from an earlier one I hadn't cashed as bounty on me during that RTT. Because even though I smashed all of my games and I'm confident that model had no material impact, it doesn't matter - I did not show up with a legal list, and as such I could not win my games.

When you have an illegal list you have impacted *all* of the players at the tournament, and when they submitted their score with you they expected that you won the game as a legal participant, which you were not. At the ETC when an illegal list is submitted - not even played with - the entire team is docked points, up to a match loss in the first round. Mistakes happen, and I don't think less of Geoff for it, but if Geoff were the one sitting in 6th, and the 5th place person was found out to have an illegal list at one of his points-earning events, I suspect the reaction would be different, and people would be telling me "insert reason I'm favoring Geoff and not being fair". In this case, as in Nick's, it didn't have a material impact on qualifications - which is great. But since the topic of claiming he was "skipped over" (despite these just being the rules of how the team is made, only top 5 qualify), I felt it important to point out he wasn't even skipped over - he was misranked to begin with. And since when is it a bad thing to be ranked 14th in the nation for something? That's still something to be damn proud of.

Also, I'll be making a Team America Qualification thread in here this weekend after the feedback received and RITides has been gracious enough to agree to sticky it, so keep an eye out for that, and feel free to suggest any other changes/improvements you'd like to see made for this upcoming year.

If the reason Geoff didn't make the team is because of one Vanguard model I find that ridiculous when another player who made the team did the rule wrong for a major advantage. It doesn't matter it was one game when all the stakes are on the line.

From the first post, only the top 5 players automatically qualified - the rest were voted on / chosen to fill out the team.

I think announcing the process upfront for this year is a very good idea, but you simply can't just go with the top 8 - you might end up with 4 SM and 4 Daemon players, but can only take each army once for the ETC!

So, some element of choosing is needed, unless you just went with the top 8 finishers who had different armies... but that would be hard to quantify since some folks play more than one in major events in a year.

Regardless, being able to discuss the process openly is great! Looking forward to the info thread for this year's, Target

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If the reason Geoff didn't make the team is because of one Vanguard model I find that ridiculous when another player who made the team did the rule wrong for a major advantage. It doesn't matter it was one game when all the stakes are on the line.

Please read the previous posts - it merely moved him in the rankings, he had not qualified with or without the points from BAO.

Another thing is I think a country like USA should pretty much always rank in the top five. Look at teams like Germany and Poland. A captain should have at most 3-4 years then it's time for some change imo. This keeps it from turning into a good old boys club with perpetually the same players each year.

Well agreed on us hopefully placing / eventually winning, 'Murica right

Target also posted that either this or next year is his last (I think that would make it 3 - 4 years for him?). Again it's just great to see the process being so transparent... now if the ETC could stream their games just like the LVO

 RiTides wrote:
Well agreed on us hopefully placing / eventually winning, 'Murica right

Target also posted that either this or next year is his last (I think that would make it 3 - 4 years for him?). Again it's just great to see the process being so transparent... now if the ETC could stream their games just like the LVO

That will make it 2 to 3 years for me, which was always my intent.

iNcontroL wrote:
yes I at my first tourney taking the war convocation accidentally had 1 extra vanguard. A number of mistakes was made by people on your list as well including nick nanavati (spelling?) screwing over sean at a tourney with improper rules as well... but you don't count that against him because he is obviously a fething talented player and friend. I don't get that excuse from you because we aren't friends and I haven't made it into the clique yet I guess.

Please for god sakes don't embarrass us more by posting stuff like I cheated a major tourney and thus cannot be counted for the team when your entire team snorts cocaine and feths hookers at tourneys while also accidentally cheating from time to time... it's a fething joke.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ok that script to make me sound less mad and more nerdy is awesome haha

hahahah, the salt! poor baby.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Another thing is I think a country like USA should pretty much always rank in the top five. Look at teams like Germany and Poland. A captain should have at most 3-4 years then it's time for some change imo. This keeps it from turning into a good old boys club with perpetually the same players each year.

Team America has garnered a reputation for cherrypicking their friends behind closed doors. A lot of the big tournament players and TOs on the west just kinda roll their eyes at the whole ETC setup. There's some petty politics involved with a lot of the east coast tournament scene that I've heard about. Until that changes, I don't think there will be much interest on the west coast.

 DarkLink wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Another thing is I think a country like USA should pretty much always rank in the top five. Look at teams like Germany and Poland. A captain should have at most 3-4 years then it's time for some change imo. This keeps it from turning into a good old boys club with perpetually the same players each year.

Team America has garnered a reputation for cherrypicking their friends behind closed doors. A lot of the big tournament players and TOs on the west just kinda roll their eyes at the whole ETC setup. There's some petty politics involved with a lot of the east coast tournament scene that I've heard about. Until that changes, I don't think there will be much interest on the west coast.

Definitely seems to be the case.. I mean how does Kurt get on the team and not even place in the top 20 of potential candidates...

Maybe in the future, all team members must be picked out of the list of top qualifiers.

Knowing a little inside about the selection process, the attempt to create east west negativity is sickening. Those saying the east coasters engage in petty closed door politics sound foolish, and are only hurting both the future health of the team and the health of 40k in the US in general.

Mad props to the east and west coasters who've been criss crossing the country to build bridges and attend as many big events as possible while sharing brews and good times with their fellow Americans, though.

Kurt team has won best general/best overall the last 2 years at adepticon. His team routinely does well at the ATC when they attend. Kurt performed well at the etc he qualified for last year. He's a guy that the "vote" is designed to pull in. Someone super good for the team and consistent.

Additionally 5 player spots are no contest you win you're on. If west coast players want on they just need to win. This qual system was announced at the beginning of last year if I remember. I know I wanted to push for it when the system came out but this year was a no go for me due to family reasons (only attended 3 gts).

This is easily the most transparent and open method they've ever had for the etc. It's also a solid systen for creating a team that should compete well. And honestly looking at the team all I see is top finishers I see all around the country all year. Seems like it worked. Guess we'll see in august.

The "closed doors" argument is kind of odd since everything is being shown here publicly? Kurt is obviously the exception, but again, you can't just go with the top 8 finishers - you need a team that can run 8 different armies at an elite level, with no overlap. Even with the process shown here, there are some serious overlap issues this team will have to overcome to do well at the event.

 DarkLink wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Another thing is I think a country like USA should pretty much always rank in the top five. Look at teams like Germany and Poland. A captain should have at most 3-4 years then it's time for some change imo. This keeps it from turning into a good old boys club with perpetually the same players each year.

Team America has garnered a reputation for cherrypicking their friends behind closed doors. A lot of the big tournament players and TOs on the west just kinda roll their eyes at the whole ETC setup. There's some petty politics involved with a lot of the east coast tournament scene that I've heard about. Until that changes, I don't think there will be much interest on the west coast.

Hmmm... so, East Coast bias thing is getting old: So I went through and bolded the events won by team members.... give you a hint, it's most of them.

Target wrote:
Sidenote, after typing out the list of events I got the urge to categorize them by region:

West Coast
Las Vegas Open 2015 - Won by Sean Nayden
Tshft Open Won by Gareth Hunt
Bay Area Open - Won by Alan Bajramovic
Broadside Bash -Won by Alan Bajramovic
Storm of Silence - Won by Chuck Arnett
Know No Mercy - Not seeing results outside of a 14 player event won by Steve Sisk- this shouldn't count

East Coast
Da Boyz GT -Won by Nick Nanavati
NOVA Open 2015 Won by Aaron Aleong
Battle for Salvation GT Zach Pawilowski runner up Alex Fennel
Killadelphia - Won by Matt DeFranza

Midwest
Adepticon 2015 Championships Won by Nick Nanavati
DarkStar GT Won by a Wes S, Gonyo was runner up
Renegade Open Trent Northington
Michigan GT Won by Ben Mohlie
American Team Championships - Won by Team Happy including Aaron Aleong
Adepticon Team Championships - Won by And They Shall Know Fear, including Aaron Aleong, Gonyo, and Nick Nanavati
Alamo GT Won by Justin Curtis
Railhead Rumble GT won by Goatboy/Matthew Alle
WarGames Con - Won by Alan Bajramovic

actually evan last year the adepticon team event was won by Sean nayden, kurt clauss and tony kopach... get your facts straight before you try and post on internet forums...

Yeah kurts a little pansy anyway fudge that guy. Also hes my best friend so I just you know put him on the team, cus thats what i do sometimes behind closed doors. And theres nothing anyone can do to stop me.

I think Evan is open-sourcing that, and some of it is a bit dated (wrong years) but it's fairly close. It also underpins the improvement it will be for me to make a post on here for this year so everyone can see results, but also submit them to me (yay less work). Keep in mind I always use only the competitive track, ordered by w/l or bp, whichever way they pair. If you're checking online, make sure you don't get confused with renaissance/overall tracks.

Know No Mercy GT was a new one this year:
Steve Sisk 1
Geoff Robinson 2
Tim Hosker 3
Julio Rodriguez 4

For a few of these I'm cut/pasting from my sheet - excuse the misordered, it's because I use a vlookup to do it, and as such I order the names alphabetically. Just hitting the ones I saw that looked incorrect above:

TSHFT Open
Ben Cromwell 2
Chance Townsend 4
Paul McKelvey 3
Sean Morgan 1

Storm of Silence
Baxter Sequin 2
Chuck Arnett 1
Jeremy Veysseire 3
Sean Morgan 4

Adepticon Teams - my team, led by Brad Townsend, actually came in 2nd (Brad, Me, Nick, Phil). Kurt's team came in first (Kurt, Max, Sean, Tony Kopach)

Alamo GT:
Ben Mohlie 1
Brian Delgado 3
Matt Allee 2
Nick Gower 4

Battle for Salvation
Alex Fennell 2
Carlos Kaiser 3
Matt Schuchman 4
Zach Pawlikowski 1

Michigan GT
Aaron Aleong 3
Brad Chester 2
Justin Curtis 1
Stephen Vincent 4

Darkstar
Andrew Gonyo 3
Chase Garbner 1
Michael Jeffries 2
Tyler Devries 4

Know No Mercy was a 60 or so 6 Round GT. Where the top 16 moved on to day 2 and the rest played in a 1 day RTT. Steve Sisk went 6-0 beating Geoff on the top table.

OrdoSean wrote:
actually evan last year the adepticon team event was won by Sean nayden, kurt clauss and tony kopach... get your facts straight before you try and post on internet forums...

Yeah kurts a little pansy anyway fudge that guy. Also hes my best friend so I just you know put him on the team, cus thats what i do sometimes behind closed doors. And theres nothing anyone can do to stop me.

Duly noted, so other team members won the event... my bad.

And yeah, that was mostly Google-fu.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Julnlecs wrote:
Know No Mercy was a 60 or so 6 Round GT. Where the top 16 moved on to day 2 and the rest played in a 1 day RTT. Steve Sisk went 6-0 beating Geoff on the top table.

All I could find was the ITC results, which only listed 14 players.

Yeah, we won best general for teams but that's only because we kurt, sean, max, and tony's team crushed battle so bad they got the overall.

And in all fairness to the system Andrew actually put a system in place to keep people from qualifying just from team events. You actually need to score points in a singles event to unlock team event points (hence kurt and i's lack of points this year)

 Julnlecs wrote:
Know No Mercy was a 60 or so 6 Round GT. Where the top 16 moved on to day 2 and the rest played in a 1 day RTT. Steve Sisk went 6-0 beating Geoff on the top table.

Thanks Julio. It was actually a only a 56 player (we had 4 no shows), 6 round event. As you said, 16 people chose not to drop after day 1. The rest went on to compete in a 3 round RTT on day two since they were out of the running. 2 of the final 16 ended up dropping after round 5, so only the 14 that finished the event were listed in the spreadsheet (per ITC rules) and collected ITC points.

The spreadsheet clearly states that 56 players started the event in the field that identifies the number of people that start round 1. I'm not sure why Evan would make the comment he did above without actually reading the results? Since I had to verify with Andrew I would think that would be adequate verification.

 punchdub wrote:

 Julnlecs wrote:
Know No Mercy was a 60 or so 6 Round GT. Where the top 16 moved on to day 2 and the rest played in a 1 day RTT. Steve Sisk went 6-0 beating Geoff on the top table.

Thanks Julio. It was actually a only a 56 player (we had 4 no shows), 6 round event. As you said, 16 people chose not to drop after day 1. The rest went on to compete in a 3 round RTT on day two since they were out of the running. 2 of the final 16 ended up dropping after round 5, so only the 14 that finished the event were listed in the spreadsheet (per ITC rules) and collected ITC points.

The spreadsheet clearly states that 56 players started the event in the field that identifies the number of people that start round 1. I'm not sure why Evan would make the comment he did above without actually reading the results? Since I had to verify with Andrew I would think that would be adequate verification.

Because the spreadsheet on the ITC results only includes 14 players, I'm guessing the top players who played day 2: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UklxN9IB09-a-6yES0d1Kya1e4cobmmgtJJMS8_uux4/edit#gid=111303906

It does say 56 on the top line, but I was just looking at the player list.

 FTGTEvan wrote:

 punchdub wrote:

 Julnlecs wrote:
Know No Mercy was a 60 or so 6 Round GT. Where the top 16 moved on to day 2 and the rest played in a 1 day RTT. Steve Sisk went 6-0 beating Geoff on the top table.

Thanks Julio. It was actually a only a 56 player (we had 4 no shows), 6 round event. As you said, 16 people chose not to drop after day 1. The rest went on to compete in a 3 round RTT on day two since they were out of the running. 2 of the final 16 ended up dropping after round 5, so only the 14 that finished the event were listed in the spreadsheet (per ITC rules) and collected ITC points.

The spreadsheet clearly states that 56 players started the event in the field that identifies the number of people that start round 1. I'm not sure why Evan would make the comment he did above without actually reading the results? Since I had to verify with Andrew I would think that would be adequate verification.

Because the spreadsheet on the ITC results only includes 14 players, I'm guessing the top players who played day 2: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UklxN9IB09-a-6yES0d1Kya1e4cobmmgtJJMS8_uux4/edit#gid=111303906

It does say 56 on the top line, but I was just looking at the player list.

Not sure what to say. I completed the form as told to do. Any player who drops an event does not get credit. Listing someone who dropped would give them credit. The form clearly says 56 players. Thanks.

@punchdub

Just to be clear, I think there is some confusion of ITC results versus mine. In mine I took exactly what we discussed in our email exchange, and yours is listed as 56 players, with the correct top 4. I think Evan is looking at the ITC ones?

Not sure why it matters, or seemed to be perceived as a slight that someone looking at a score sheet listing 14 players assumed that was the whole field. I stood corrected, and frankly, don't really care. My apologies, I suppose.

@target - yup, all good, just commenting on Evan's comment that the event shouldn't count

 DarkLink wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Another thing is I think a country like USA should pretty much always rank in the top five. Look at teams like Germany and Poland. A captain should have at most 3-4 years then it's time for some change imo. This keeps it from turning into a good old boys club with perpetually the same players each year.

Team America has garnered a reputation for cherrypicking their friends behind closed doors. A lot of the big tournament players and TOs on the west just kinda roll their eyes at the whole ETC setup. There's some petty politics involved with a lot of the east coast tournament scene that I've heard about. Until that changes, I don't think there will be much interest on the west coast.

Please point to facts instead of conjecture. Each of the captains didn't know each other within three years prior to awarding their successor as noted below:

Captain #1 - Massachusetts (2 years)
Captain #2 - Ohio (3 years)
Captain #3 - Maryland (on 2nd year)

As far as team selection goes, here's the history. You should read this thoroughly to understand the systematic expansion of the qualification system as the independent tournament circuit has grown.

2010 Year 1 - Captain #1 - Invited people from three different states (OH, NY, MA) not knowing 1/2 of the invitees. Put up two slots for those who won at AdeptiCon in the Championships and Gladiator (additional states represented were PA and TX). GW stops hosting all GTs this year and creates a vacuum with only one large event being AdeptiCon.

2011 Year 2 - Captain #1 - Invited same team. Had replacements with top two finishers from AdeptiCon Championships. (states represented included OH, MA, NY, TX, PA, MD). Tournament circuit is starting to form in it's infancy.

2012 Year 3 - Captain #2 - Decreased veteran team member qualifications to top three finishers at the ETC. Expanded qualifiers to WargamesCon, DaBoyz GT and AdeptiCon and wild card system. (OH, IL, NJ, TX, MD). AdeptiCon, WargamesCon and DaBoyz GT were largest independent events.

2013 Year 4 - Captain #2 - Maintained veteran team member qualifications to top three finishers at the ETC. Qualifiers given to WargamesCon, NOVA and AdeptiCon and wild card system for next four team members representing OH, WA, IL, VA, NJ, and TX. WargamesCon, NOVA and AdeptiCon were the largest independent events.

2014 Year 5 - Captain #2 - Maintained veteran team member qualifications to top three finishers at the ETC. Qualifiers given to WargamesCon, NOVA and AdeptiCon and wild card system for next four team members representing OH, WA, IL, NJ, VA, and TX. While WargamesCon, NOVA and AdeptiCon are the largest independent events, others across the nation are starting to grown more to have larger attendance

2015 Year 6 - Captain #3 - Maintained veteran team member qualifications to top three finishers at the ETC. Expanded qualification system to include a larger number of events and eliminated overall event winners from automatically qualifying. States represented OH, IL, IN, NJ, VA, CT.

2016 Year 7 - Captain #3 - Eliminated automatic veteran requalification. Expansion of qualification system includes all events over 50 players with the ability to reject events with obtuse rules. States represented include OH, IL, IN, NJ, VA, CT, MN.

The qualification system has expanded to be inclusive for all events and has adapted to the ever changing and growing independent circuit. Everyone has an opportunity to be on the team.

So the question is - if there is such a bias to the west coast or any specific group, why don't the groups questioning the system go out and win events to qualify? There are plenty of opportunities, yet - it doesn't seem to happen. Why is that? Player experience and skill might have something to do with it. Isn't it ironic that 5 of the top 8 players at LVO are Team America 40K team members and the overall winner is part of the UK ETC team. What's that say?

Interestingly, there is a push from people both within and outside of the team to have the captain select the entire team. Yet the current captain has resisted this as well to give the opportunity to everyone to qualify. What would you say to those that want to select the entire team?

Quick note - last line should read "2016" and "Captain #3" - this line represents the current year and my 2nd year that we'll attend the event for in august.

States include:

OH, IL, IN, NJ, VA, CT, MN

So among 8 people, all must have different armies. Jesus that sounds like a pain, especially with there being very few armies that are upper tier. And they have to be pure too? Jesus.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So among 8 people, all must have different armies. Jesus that sounds like a pain, especially with there being very few armies that are upper tier. And they have to be pure too? Jesus.

Nope, not pure. But if you include anything in your army from another race, that race is now locked out for everyone else. So that means 1 culexus per team. Or War convo can potentially eat up BA/Cult Mech/Skiitari/Culexus/Knights for the entire team. You can quickly run out of books.

It's pretty interesting actually and you see way different armies because everyone isnt running a mish mash of the top 4 books.

Wow, I would love to be in an event like that. Gotta step up my game lol

The LVO Team Event on day 3 was like that. Which the East Coast also won.

I'd just like to say, as someone from the Midwest (reminder: totally not a coast) who is on the team for the first time this year despite only really being friends with one of the team members (who, in turn, was on the team for the first time last year) for more than a few months, I'm really enjoying all this east coast bias/secret illuminati handshake stuff. The people who do know me are far more likely to know me as a judge than a player--I'm such a no-name in the tournament circuit that on the rankings Evan laid out on the prior page, I'm mis-represented at Michigan as being Ben Mohlie and didn't even warrant a mention of being on the winning ATC team, unlike Aleong

But it turns out, if you do well at events, they put you on the team whether they know your damn name or not.

I'll also throw in that I actually put Frankie on my roster vote-in despite the fact that I've never even met Frankie, so I definitely missed a memo on this anti-west coast bias I am supposed to be exhibiting. I'll do my best not to repeat this mistake in the future and will submit an apology in writing to my east coast overlords.

 Inquisitor_Malice wrote:
So the question is - if there is such a bias to the west coast or any specific group, why don't the groups questioning the system go out and win events to qualify? There are plenty of opportunities, yet - it doesn't seem to happen. Why is that? Player experience and skill might have something to do with it. Isn't it ironic that 5 of the top 8 players at LVO are Team America 40K team members and the overall winner is part of the UK ETC team. What's that say?

You want people to win events before they complain about not qualifying? I'm pretty sure posting passive-aggressive sarcasm regarding the qualification format on dakka with no proposition toward a better system is, like, way easier.

Also, since I have nothing useful to say, I'd just like to congratulate my teammates on the LVO showing--I was the only team member not to attend, but thanks to Brad, I only finished in a tie for least amount of awards won at LVO.

DJ3 wrote:
The people who do know me are far more likely to know me as a judge than a player--I'm such a no-name in the tournament circuit that on the rankings Evan laid out on the prior page, I'm mis-represented at Michigan as being Ben Mohlie and didn't even warrant a mention of being on the winning ATC team, unlike Aleong

Haha, woops. Definately questioned Ben winning the Michigan GT but was all I found. My bad on both counts.

Very well played, Curtis.

Part of the problem with the system, fair as it is (and I do think it is fair), is that the vast majority of players who would like to go had no input on creating the system. The only reason this is the status quo is that the current team/leadership was the first to contact and put in the effort to attend the ETC.

Personally, I don't mind that as it takes a ton of effort to organize, plan, and send a team. However, when you are forced to jump through hoops to qualify for a closed tournament, people get frustrated.

It is a shame that ETC will not allow multiple American teams. Any kind of face off to determine a team is unfeasible, and the incumbent team has no reason to accept such a challenge. I only get upset that the current team can never be replaced by a "worthier" team by the way the tournament is set up.

For the record, I don't have much interest in going at this point and wish all the best for the current team!

The beauty of it is, there is no current team, nor is their a worthier team to replace them. There is just the team, and it is created fresh every year by the top ranked players from the qualifying system.

You have a worthier team in mind? Just have those people perform well in the tournament circuit, namely, out perform the guys who are trying to qualify, and wallah, you have a worthier team! If those players cannot perform better than others, then I guess they weren't worthier!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
All,

The stickied thread at the top of this forum is now created:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/680016.page

It's not 100% completed, but its mostly there. It should be complete within a day or two.

Thanks for the feedback,

Andrew

Good luck out there guys!

And stop giving them gak on the player selection process. There really isn't many things Andrew could do to make this much better without starting to toss real money at it - say an Team America qualifier website with live/updated stats of literally EVERY player in the USA 64+ player GTs and all that crap. - and I don't really think that would be fair to him.

It's a hobby, these things are naturally put together in the best way they can. From everything I've ever heard about the USA ETC team creation process over the years it's handled quite well.

Hi internet,my name is Nick Nanavati. I cheat a lot and I suck at 40k. Lord Captain Bias Grumpypants Gonyo chose me because we're bestest friends. We even have a secret East Coast club house which we invited Tyler, Alan, Chester, Aaron, and Justin too because they're cool. I'm glad you all figured out the truth, because there is literally nothing you can do about it, and no matter how well you play or how many events you place at you will never be on Team America! Muahahahaa

oh wait...

yermom wrote:
Hi internet,my name is Nick Nanavati. I cheat a lot and I suck at 40k. Lord Captain Bias Grumpypants Gonyo chose me because we're bestest friends. We even have a secret East Coast club house which we invited Tyler, Alan, Chester, Aaron, and Justin too because they're cool. I'm glad you all figured out the truth, because there is literally nothing you can do about it, and no matter how well you play or how many events you place at you will never be on Team America! Muahahahaa

oh wait...

And you would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for those meddling kids...

Ah, all is right with the world again

I hope you guys will have a plan to deal with the UK ETC bloke's LVO-winning list! 45 Warp Spiders, sheesh...

Also curious who on the team will be taking Eldar since it's none of your main armies this year it seems.

Forgeworld isn't allowed at ETC so that's not a worry, not being molested by Alex in some other way is always a concern though

Part of me wonders if the Thoughts about Bias have more to do with population density than anything else. If we are using the Mississippi river as the split for east and west then 2/3rds of the land area of the country lies in the West (not inlcuding Alaska and Hawaii, if you include those 2 the west is even more of a percentage of the land area). Conversely those same states make up ~39% of the population. Further if you take out California and Texas those numbers are far worse. So in general West coast players need to travel further to large events and need to travel further to find other top players.

When you look at population Density the East has all of the top 10 states, and 23 of the top 25. Furthermore if we are not counting Texas as West Coast (which it seems people are not) We are essentially talking about why has a Califorinian not qualified?

If we look at the list of qualifiying states for this year

OH(10th in Pop density)
IL(12th)
IN(16th)
NJ(1st)
VA(14th)
CT(4th)
MN(30th)

So most of the players come from areas with more people close together.

All that said. The process seems fair to me. No matter the process someone will always be upset with how players are picked.

Breng77 wrote:
So in general West coast players need to travel further to large events and need to travel further to find other top players.

All that said. The process seems fair to me. No matter the process someone will always be upset with how players are picked.

Along the lines of traveling distances, I was talking to a German team member last year and they sometimes found it hard to get together because they all lived about two hours apart. I chuckled because our spread is more like 12-13 hours and if you include players who were previously from TX and WA, the travel distances are unattainable without spending a lot of cash and time traveling.

I also spoke to Simon (a German player and who I consider to be one of the top players in the world) at the ETC last year. He was getting burned out after playing 40K for 14 days straight. Truth or not, I have periodically heard similar claims from the Polish team members when they won the event. I will say this, team Germany's performance last year speaks for itself.

Also very true I'm sure. I know I'm lucky if I play 1 game a week, as traveling is an issue, and I live relatively close to places to play (under and hour anyway). So for the US team to all get together is always going to prove challanging No matter what you do. Even if we got 2 teams (say east and west) then you are still looking at 10+ hours of travel to get people together in many cases.

Just as a last post, everything is up on the new stickied team america thread now, so have at it!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/680016.page


Cheers guys,

Andrew

yermom wrote:
Hi internet,my name is Nick Nanavati. I cheat a lot and I suck at 40k. Lord Captain Bias Grumpypants Gonyo chose me because we're bestest friends. We even have a secret East Coast club house which we invited Tyler, Alan, Chester, Aaron, and Justin too because they're cool. I'm glad you all figured out the truth, because there is literally nothing you can do about it, and no matter how well you play or how many events you place at you will never be on Team America! Muahahahaa

oh wait...

Didnt you literally ruin his hand at adepticon last yr, last I checked he doesnt have full movement back yet. Im kind of surprised hes still letting you on the team...

You qualified, so you got in, that is proof the system is unbias. There is no way Goyno lets nick go with out a babysitter, if it was up to him.
<3

Good luck to this year's team America. I hope the team includes a Khorne Daemonkin Player!!!!

congrats to everyone who made the team. see everyone at the next "east coast GT behind closed door meeting"....btw whats the PW again ?

 Hulksmash wrote:
Well 4 of the top 10 are from west of the Mississippi. Just none of them managed to squeak into the top 5.

And yes Alan. I've been here to long. But east of the Mississippi is hardly east coast.

And the coach/alternate is from west of the Mississippi

I think he is from Newport, MN which is on the bank of the Mississippi...the EAST bank!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Kurt team has won best general/best overall the last 2 years at adepticon. His team routinely does well at the ATC when they attend. Kurt performed well at the etc he qualified for last year. He's a guy that the "vote" is designed to pull in. Someone super good for the team and consistent.

I will say that including team tournament results is weak sauce.

You should qualify on your own merits,and not of your teammates. If a really good player chooses to play with his friends who might not be as good it does not get counted because the team did not do so well. On the other hand you can have a mediocre player do really well when the rest of the team is really good.

You can make the argument that the ATC prepares the players for the ETC format, but really you need to remove the team results.

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Well 4 of the top 10 are from west of the Mississippi. Just none of them managed to squeak into the top 5.

And yes Alan. I've been here to long. But east of the Mississippi is hardly east coast.

And the coach/alternate is from west of the Mississippi

I think he is from Newport, MN which is on the bank of the Mississippi...the EAST bank!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Kurt team has won best general/best overall the last 2 years at adepticon. His team routinely does well at the ATC when they attend. Kurt performed well at the etc he qualified for last year. He's a guy that the "vote" is designed to pull in. Someone super good for the team and consistent.

I will say that including team tournament results is weak sauce.

You should qualify on your own merits,and not of your teammates. If a really good player chooses to play with his friends who might not be as good it does not get counted because the team did not do so well. On the other hand you can have a mediocre player do really well when the rest of the team is really good.

You can make the argument that the ATC prepares the players for the ETC format, but really you need to remove the team results.

Considering ETC is a team event, I think having players with team tournament experience is of the utmost important, so much so that it probably wouldn't be crazy for them to weigh team events heavier. I know that as someone who has played in lots of singles events, I have little experience in a team format so even had I qualified, I'd probably be a bit green. The other aspect is that Kurt has played in the ETC so has experience specific to that event.

Lol, nah. He's local so he's barely on the westside of the Mississippi

Also the team results only count if you place at another event. As in you can't make the top 5 spots without a 4th place finish or better at a singles event. Which seems a good compromise to me.

 LValx wrote:

Considering ETC is a team event, I think having players with team tournament experience is of the utmost important, so much so that it probably wouldn't be crazy for them to weigh team events heavier. I know that as someone who has played in lots of singles events, I have little experience in a team format so even had I qualified, I'd probably be a bit green. The other aspect is that Kurt has played in the ETC so has experience specific to that event.

ATC team tournament experience is irrelevant for anyone other than the captain of the team. He is the only one doing the pairings, an everyone else is just playing a singles game against the guy who is put in front of them. Adepticon has such a different team tournament format that the experience does not translate to anything usable in the ETC.

I would also say that this was not a dig at Kurt, just my own dislike of including team tournaments in the selection process. It might be a test of how well you can recruit a team rather then your playing ability.

 Blackmoor wrote:
ATC team tournament experience is irrelevant for anyone other than the captain of the team. He is the only one doing the pairings, an everyone else is just playing a singles game against the guy who is put in front of them. Adepticon has such a different team tournament format that the experience does not translate to anything usable in the ETC.

Actually, based on my experience at both the ATC and ETC, I disagree with you. The skills developed as either an attacker, a defender or a generalist directly translate to high level ETC play. These are corner stones to building a team and not just having a mix of good solid singles players. I have seen plenty of top singles players perform well in US singles events and then perform poorly (sometimes down right terrible) in team play at the ETC. And I stress team play. Having a player who understands their role on the team and is willing to perform that role (no matter how crappy/boring the play style may be) is extremely valuable in the ETC.

 Blackmoor wrote:
Adepticon has such a different team tournament format that the experience does not translate to anything usable in the ETC.

While the AdeptiCon team tournament is not as technical from a pairings and specific team roles concept, the team work required to succeed and win the tactician award is quite demanding. Again, solid team work is a corner stone to high level ETC play and you don't win AdeptiCon's Best Tactician without solid teamwork.

AdeptiTeam doesn't get won by scrubs. If a single person on the team is "Carried" to the win or high placing, it doesn't mean anything in the qual system unless he also places Top 4 at another national event.

Ipso facto, relevant.

Also since youre referencing Kurt but then backtracking on referencing kurt... He is the captain of the ATC team he leads and the adepticon team... we make him do all the work. If youve ever seen us at the pairing process Im usually 4 tables away talking smack with some other team we arent even playing and getting yelled at by kurt to pay attention. Plus we also have two players on our team that play 40k only once a year, so Kurt builds their lists and gives them their game plan heading into each game. I mean it certainly helps that Im on his teams... but thats besides the point.

Hes like commissioner Gordon... and Im the joker. Hes got plans.... I dont have any plans... Im like a dog chasing a car Im so excited but I just wouldnt know what to do when I caught it... Id say hes like Batman but lets face it hes not that good...

 Blackmoor wrote:
ATC team tournament experience is irrelevant for anyone other than the captain of the team. He is the only one doing the pairings, an everyone else is just playing a singles game against the guy who is put in front of them.

Good lord, that's a pretty bleak view of how ATC works. Have you ever even attended? If so, did you just pile four minions in a van and point them at people and tell them to go win for your glory?

ATC is an enormously team-oriented undertaking. None of the captains I saw on the top tables were barking out orders to their teammates. Completely ignoring all the preparation that goes in before the events (mock pairings/test games/list concepts/etc), pretty much every teammate was also directly involved in the pairing process as well. It's not like the captains get locked in a glass box to make pairings--you huddle up and discuss which lists you'd do well or poorly against, and try to plan the pairings accordingly.

And for what it's worth, neither I or Aleong were the captain of the winning team--our friend Tony was the captain.

 Inquisitor_Malice wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:
ATC team tournament experience is irrelevant for anyone other than the captain of the team. He is the only one doing the pairings, an everyone else is just playing a singles game against the guy who is put in front of them. Adepticon has such a different team tournament format that the experience does not translate to anything usable in the ETC.

Actually, based on my experience at both the ATC and ETC, I disagree with you. The skills developed as either an attacker, a defender or a generalist directly translate to high level ETC play. These are corner stones to building a team and not just having a mix of good solid singles players. I have seen plenty of top singles players perform well in US singles events and then perform poorly (sometimes down right terrible) in team play at the ETC. And I stress team play. Having a player who understands their role on the team and is willing to perform that role (no matter how crappy/boring the play style may be) is extremely valuable in the ETC.

 Blackmoor wrote:
Adepticon has such a different team tournament format that the experience does not translate to anything usable in the ETC.

While the AdeptiCon team tournament is not as technical from a pairings and specific team roles concept, the team work required to succeed and win the tactician award is quite demanding. Again, solid team work is a corner stone to high level ETC play and you don't win AdeptiCon's Best Tactician without solid teamwork.

In the ATC/ETC format your job is to get as many points as possible from your opponent. If you are attacking it is to get max points. As a defender sometimes you get placed in a bad position and have to try to scrape 2 or 3 points out of the game, but the goal is the same.

At Adepticon you have 2 players together playing with only 1000 points. A weak player can really hide in this format and we have seen teams with a weak player do very well since they do not even have to do anything since a strong player can do everything for them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

OrdoSean wrote:
Also since youre referencing Kurt but then backtracking on referencing kurt... He is the captain of the ATC team he leads and the adepticon team... we make him do all the work. If youve ever seen us at the pairing process Im usually 4 tables away talking smack with some other team we arent even playing and getting yelled at by kurt to pay attention. Plus we also have two players on our team that play 40k only once a year, so Kurt builds their lists and gives them their game plan heading into each game. I mean it certainly helps that Im on his teams... but thats besides the point.

Hes like commissioner Gordon... and Im the joker. Hes got plans.... I dont have any plans... Im like a dog chasing a car Im so excited but I just wouldnt know what to do when I caught it... Id say hes like Batman but lets face it hes not that good...

I never referenced Kurt, he was just part of the quote when I posted my dislike of the team tournaments inclusion in the qualification system. I like Kurt, he is a very good player, and beat me in the later rounds off a Nova Open a few years ago. I have no problems with him being on the team.

But just to emphasize what others have said and I posted in the qualifying rules, while team events are in the system, they do not count whatsoever towards qualifying a player unless that player has other singles finishes. Team points are essentially locked away until a player unlocks them by finishing in a singles environment. This is to avoid the perception/reality/what have you of the potential for a player be carried.

Of course it's a lot easier to perform poorly at a team tourney - especially if your team mates throw you to the wolves .

Isnt that part of the game? where occasionaly your team needs someone to fall on the sword?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Isnt that part of the game? where occasionaly your team needs someone to fall on the sword?

Given how the pairings work at ATC/ETC, yes, this is absolutely part of the strategy. There are positions that are more likely to get favorable matchups and positions that are more likely to get poor matchups, and sometimes you've got to throw someone into a matchup you'll probably lose 2-8 if it gives you another matchup that you'll probably win 10-0.

ATC is much simpler in this regard--the lists you put down first (what Greg was referring to as 'defenders') will generally get worse matchups because the opponent gets to immediately counter them with any of their lists.

ETC's more complicated system definitely lessens the impact of "defender vs. attacker" archetypes, though--you'll generally end up with more even matchups in their system than you would at ATC.

MVBrandt wrote:
Knowing a little inside about the selection process, the attempt to create east west negativity is sickening. Those saying the east coasters engage in petty closed door politics sound foolish, and are only hurting both the future health of the team and the health of 40k in the US in general.

Mad props to the east and west coasters who've been criss crossing the country to build bridges and attend as many big events as possible while sharing brews and good times with their fellow Americans, though.

Yeah I don't know why some people have to insist it must be a conspiracy if someone didn't make it the system seems fairly transparent to me.

Those boys who made it all earned it, good luck out there guys!

Wow, the things said in this thread are comical...

I think USA players should do 5, 5man teams East Vs. West.
"Biggie Vs. 2pac 40k Champs".

We could have some turn coats and espionage also!

Like my east coast team can recruit Julio from NWO (I mean everyone knows ' NWO ' are the key players in any conflict from 2 opposing entities trying to prove dominance. )

Lol. That would be badass Todd.

If the people play the same, and we do generally as well as we do every year here are the numbers I have:
Our mean place is 8th (8 1/3rd so we will say 8th)
Now here is the real kicker are Sample Standard Deviation is 5.92 which while you can not give the chance of getting anyone one result when doing confidence entverals I can say this.
Team USA has a 66 percent chance of place between 14th and 2nd.
Of course here in America we go for broke so I expect only first place and for old glory to raise high above everyone else in the world.

 Inquisitor_Malice wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:
ATC team tournament experience is irrelevant for anyone other than the captain of the team. He is the only one doing the pairings, an everyone else is just playing a singles game against the guy who is put in front of them. Adepticon has such a different team tournament format that the experience does not translate to anything usable in the ETC.

Actually, based on my experience at both the ATC and ETC, I disagree with you. The skills developed as either an attacker, a defender or a generalist directly translate to high level ETC play. These are corner stones to building a team and not just having a mix of good solid singles players. I have seen plenty of top singles players perform well in US singles events and then perform poorly (sometimes down right terrible) in team play at the ETC. And I stress team play. Having a player who understands their role on the team and is willing to perform that role (no matter how crappy/boring the play style may be) is extremely valuable in the ETC.

 Blackmoor wrote:
Adepticon has such a different team tournament format that the experience does not translate to anything usable in the ETC.

While the AdeptiCon team tournament is not as technical from a pairings and specific team roles concept, the team work required to succeed and win the tactician award is quite demanding. Again, solid team work is a corner stone to high level ETC play and you don't win AdeptiCon's Best Tactician without solid teamwork.

First I would just like to thank everyone for participating in this thread. I was kind of at a point where I was feeling there just was not enough good drama like the old days. Though this does pale in comparison to some of the old threads

On a serious note. Inquisitor -you know you cannot compare travel distances with the Germans and the Poles. Many of those guys have been playing together in their small groups for forever and a day to the point they really dont need to hit to many games together. Now there is something to be said on how the French used to and probably still do the qualification. Where as they used to hold a team event and the team that wins attends. But end of the day I think the current US system is pretty fair. Heck most of the people complaining probably would not even be able to pull the time and money to go to the ETC.

2nd- I only semi agree with your thoughts on the ATC. In the mind set of attack and defend. Never understood why the ATC does not use the same rule structure for army lists that ETC uses and therefore market in addition as prep for the US team to go to the ETC. But I am guessing the ATC just feels the US base is wanting more "toys" to play with and would not be interested.

The US team really needs to step it up and finish in the top three this year.