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The LVO Team Event on day 3 was like that. Which the East Coast also won.

I'd just like to say, as someone from the Midwest (reminder: totally not a coast) who is on the team for the first time this year despite only really being friends with one of the team members (who, in turn, was on the team for the first time last year) for more than a few months, I'm really enjoying all this east coast bias/secret illuminati handshake stuff. The people who do know me are far more likely to know me as a judge than a player--I'm such a no-name in the tournament circuit that on the rankings Evan laid out on the prior page, I'm mis-represented at Michigan as being Ben Mohlie and didn't even warrant a mention of being on the winning ATC team, unlike Aleong

But it turns out, if you do well at events, they put you on the team whether they know your damn name or not.

I'll also throw in that I actually put Frankie on my roster vote-in despite the fact that I've never even met Frankie, so I definitely missed a memo on this anti-west coast bias I am supposed to be exhibiting. I'll do my best not to repeat this mistake in the future and will submit an apology in writing to my east coast overlords.

 Inquisitor_Malice wrote:
So the question is - if there is such a bias to the west coast or any specific group, why don't the groups questioning the system go out and win events to qualify? There are plenty of opportunities, yet - it doesn't seem to happen. Why is that? Player experience and skill might have something to do with it. Isn't it ironic that 5 of the top 8 players at LVO are Team America 40K team members and the overall winner is part of the UK ETC team. What's that say?

You want people to win events before they complain about not qualifying? I'm pretty sure posting passive-aggressive sarcasm regarding the qualification format on dakka with no proposition toward a better system is, like, way easier.

Also, since I have nothing useful to say, I'd just like to congratulate my teammates on the LVO showing--I was the only team member not to attend, but thanks to Brad, I only finished in a tie for least amount of awards won at LVO.

DJ3 wrote:
The people who do know me are far more likely to know me as a judge than a player--I'm such a no-name in the tournament circuit that on the rankings Evan laid out on the prior page, I'm mis-represented at Michigan as being Ben Mohlie and didn't even warrant a mention of being on the winning ATC team, unlike Aleong

Haha, woops. Definately questioned Ben winning the Michigan GT but was all I found. My bad on both counts.

Very well played, Curtis.

Part of the problem with the system, fair as it is (and I do think it is fair), is that the vast majority of players who would like to go had no input on creating the system. The only reason this is the status quo is that the current team/leadership was the first to contact and put in the effort to attend the ETC.

Personally, I don't mind that as it takes a ton of effort to organize, plan, and send a team. However, when you are forced to jump through hoops to qualify for a closed tournament, people get frustrated.

It is a shame that ETC will not allow multiple American teams. Any kind of face off to determine a team is unfeasible, and the incumbent team has no reason to accept such a challenge. I only get upset that the current team can never be replaced by a "worthier" team by the way the tournament is set up.

For the record, I don't have much interest in going at this point and wish all the best for the current team!

The beauty of it is, there is no current team, nor is their a worthier team to replace them. There is just the team, and it is created fresh every year by the top ranked players from the qualifying system.

You have a worthier team in mind? Just have those people perform well in the tournament circuit, namely, out perform the guys who are trying to qualify, and wallah, you have a worthier team! If those players cannot perform better than others, then I guess they weren't worthier!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
All,

The stickied thread at the top of this forum is now created:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/680016.page

It's not 100% completed, but its mostly there. It should be complete within a day or two.

Thanks for the feedback,

Andrew

Good luck out there guys!

And stop giving them gak on the player selection process. There really isn't many things Andrew could do to make this much better without starting to toss real money at it - say an Team America qualifier website with live/updated stats of literally EVERY player in the USA 64+ player GTs and all that crap. - and I don't really think that would be fair to him.

It's a hobby, these things are naturally put together in the best way they can. From everything I've ever heard about the USA ETC team creation process over the years it's handled quite well.

Hi internet,my name is Nick Nanavati. I cheat a lot and I suck at 40k. Lord Captain Bias Grumpypants Gonyo chose me because we're bestest friends. We even have a secret East Coast club house which we invited Tyler, Alan, Chester, Aaron, and Justin too because they're cool. I'm glad you all figured out the truth, because there is literally nothing you can do about it, and no matter how well you play or how many events you place at you will never be on Team America! Muahahahaa

oh wait...

yermom wrote:
Hi internet,my name is Nick Nanavati. I cheat a lot and I suck at 40k. Lord Captain Bias Grumpypants Gonyo chose me because we're bestest friends. We even have a secret East Coast club house which we invited Tyler, Alan, Chester, Aaron, and Justin too because they're cool. I'm glad you all figured out the truth, because there is literally nothing you can do about it, and no matter how well you play or how many events you place at you will never be on Team America! Muahahahaa

oh wait...

And you would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for those meddling kids...

Ah, all is right with the world again

I hope you guys will have a plan to deal with the UK ETC bloke's LVO-winning list! 45 Warp Spiders, sheesh...

Also curious who on the team will be taking Eldar since it's none of your main armies this year it seems.

Forgeworld isn't allowed at ETC so that's not a worry, not being molested by Alex in some other way is always a concern though

Part of me wonders if the Thoughts about Bias have more to do with population density than anything else. If we are using the Mississippi river as the split for east and west then 2/3rds of the land area of the country lies in the West (not inlcuding Alaska and Hawaii, if you include those 2 the west is even more of a percentage of the land area). Conversely those same states make up ~39% of the population. Further if you take out California and Texas those numbers are far worse. So in general West coast players need to travel further to large events and need to travel further to find other top players.

When you look at population Density the East has all of the top 10 states, and 23 of the top 25. Furthermore if we are not counting Texas as West Coast (which it seems people are not) We are essentially talking about why has a Califorinian not qualified?

If we look at the list of qualifiying states for this year

OH(10th in Pop density)
IL(12th)
IN(16th)
NJ(1st)
VA(14th)
CT(4th)
MN(30th)

So most of the players come from areas with more people close together.

All that said. The process seems fair to me. No matter the process someone will always be upset with how players are picked.

Breng77 wrote:
So in general West coast players need to travel further to large events and need to travel further to find other top players.

All that said. The process seems fair to me. No matter the process someone will always be upset with how players are picked.

Along the lines of traveling distances, I was talking to a German team member last year and they sometimes found it hard to get together because they all lived about two hours apart. I chuckled because our spread is more like 12-13 hours and if you include players who were previously from TX and WA, the travel distances are unattainable without spending a lot of cash and time traveling.

I also spoke to Simon (a German player and who I consider to be one of the top players in the world) at the ETC last year. He was getting burned out after playing 40K for 14 days straight. Truth or not, I have periodically heard similar claims from the Polish team members when they won the event. I will say this, team Germany's performance last year speaks for itself.

Also very true I'm sure. I know I'm lucky if I play 1 game a week, as traveling is an issue, and I live relatively close to places to play (under and hour anyway). So for the US team to all get together is always going to prove challanging No matter what you do. Even if we got 2 teams (say east and west) then you are still looking at 10+ hours of travel to get people together in many cases.

Just as a last post, everything is up on the new stickied team america thread now, so have at it!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/680016.page


Cheers guys,

Andrew

yermom wrote:
Hi internet,my name is Nick Nanavati. I cheat a lot and I suck at 40k. Lord Captain Bias Grumpypants Gonyo chose me because we're bestest friends. We even have a secret East Coast club house which we invited Tyler, Alan, Chester, Aaron, and Justin too because they're cool. I'm glad you all figured out the truth, because there is literally nothing you can do about it, and no matter how well you play or how many events you place at you will never be on Team America! Muahahahaa

oh wait...

Didnt you literally ruin his hand at adepticon last yr, last I checked he doesnt have full movement back yet. Im kind of surprised hes still letting you on the team...

You qualified, so you got in, that is proof the system is unbias. There is no way Goyno lets nick go with out a babysitter, if it was up to him.
<3

Good luck to this year's team America. I hope the team includes a Khorne Daemonkin Player!!!!

congrats to everyone who made the team. see everyone at the next "east coast GT behind closed door meeting"....btw whats the PW again ?

 Hulksmash wrote:
Well 4 of the top 10 are from west of the Mississippi. Just none of them managed to squeak into the top 5.

And yes Alan. I've been here to long. But east of the Mississippi is hardly east coast.

And the coach/alternate is from west of the Mississippi

I think he is from Newport, MN which is on the bank of the Mississippi...the EAST bank!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Kurt team has won best general/best overall the last 2 years at adepticon. His team routinely does well at the ATC when they attend. Kurt performed well at the etc he qualified for last year. He's a guy that the "vote" is designed to pull in. Someone super good for the team and consistent.

I will say that including team tournament results is weak sauce.

You should qualify on your own merits,and not of your teammates. If a really good player chooses to play with his friends who might not be as good it does not get counted because the team did not do so well. On the other hand you can have a mediocre player do really well when the rest of the team is really good.

You can make the argument that the ATC prepares the players for the ETC format, but really you need to remove the team results.

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Well 4 of the top 10 are from west of the Mississippi. Just none of them managed to squeak into the top 5.

And yes Alan. I've been here to long. But east of the Mississippi is hardly east coast.

And the coach/alternate is from west of the Mississippi

I think he is from Newport, MN which is on the bank of the Mississippi...the EAST bank!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Kurt team has won best general/best overall the last 2 years at adepticon. His team routinely does well at the ATC when they attend. Kurt performed well at the etc he qualified for last year. He's a guy that the "vote" is designed to pull in. Someone super good for the team and consistent.

I will say that including team tournament results is weak sauce.

You should qualify on your own merits,and not of your teammates. If a really good player chooses to play with his friends who might not be as good it does not get counted because the team did not do so well. On the other hand you can have a mediocre player do really well when the rest of the team is really good.

You can make the argument that the ATC prepares the players for the ETC format, but really you need to remove the team results.

Considering ETC is a team event, I think having players with team tournament experience is of the utmost important, so much so that it probably wouldn't be crazy for them to weigh team events heavier. I know that as someone who has played in lots of singles events, I have little experience in a team format so even had I qualified, I'd probably be a bit green. The other aspect is that Kurt has played in the ETC so has experience specific to that event.

Lol, nah. He's local so he's barely on the westside of the Mississippi

Also the team results only count if you place at another event. As in you can't make the top 5 spots without a 4th place finish or better at a singles event. Which seems a good compromise to me.

 LValx wrote:

Considering ETC is a team event, I think having players with team tournament experience is of the utmost important, so much so that it probably wouldn't be crazy for them to weigh team events heavier. I know that as someone who has played in lots of singles events, I have little experience in a team format so even had I qualified, I'd probably be a bit green. The other aspect is that Kurt has played in the ETC so has experience specific to that event.

ATC team tournament experience is irrelevant for anyone other than the captain of the team. He is the only one doing the pairings, an everyone else is just playing a singles game against the guy who is put in front of them. Adepticon has such a different team tournament format that the experience does not translate to anything usable in the ETC.

I would also say that this was not a dig at Kurt, just my own dislike of including team tournaments in the selection process. It might be a test of how well you can recruit a team rather then your playing ability.

 Blackmoor wrote:
ATC team tournament experience is irrelevant for anyone other than the captain of the team. He is the only one doing the pairings, an everyone else is just playing a singles game against the guy who is put in front of them. Adepticon has such a different team tournament format that the experience does not translate to anything usable in the ETC.

Actually, based on my experience at both the ATC and ETC, I disagree with you. The skills developed as either an attacker, a defender or a generalist directly translate to high level ETC play. These are corner stones to building a team and not just having a mix of good solid singles players. I have seen plenty of top singles players perform well in US singles events and then perform poorly (sometimes down right terrible) in team play at the ETC. And I stress team play. Having a player who understands their role on the team and is willing to perform that role (no matter how crappy/boring the play style may be) is extremely valuable in the ETC.

 Blackmoor wrote:
Adepticon has such a different team tournament format that the experience does not translate to anything usable in the ETC.

While the AdeptiCon team tournament is not as technical from a pairings and specific team roles concept, the team work required to succeed and win the tactician award is quite demanding. Again, solid team work is a corner stone to high level ETC play and you don't win AdeptiCon's Best Tactician without solid teamwork.

AdeptiTeam doesn't get won by scrubs. If a single person on the team is "Carried" to the win or high placing, it doesn't mean anything in the qual system unless he also places Top 4 at another national event.

Ipso facto, relevant.

Also since youre referencing Kurt but then backtracking on referencing kurt... He is the captain of the ATC team he leads and the adepticon team... we make him do all the work. If youve ever seen us at the pairing process Im usually 4 tables away talking smack with some other team we arent even playing and getting yelled at by kurt to pay attention. Plus we also have two players on our team that play 40k only once a year, so Kurt builds their lists and gives them their game plan heading into each game. I mean it certainly helps that Im on his teams... but thats besides the point.

Hes like commissioner Gordon... and Im the joker. Hes got plans.... I dont have any plans... Im like a dog chasing a car Im so excited but I just wouldnt know what to do when I caught it... Id say hes like Batman but lets face it hes not that good...

 Blackmoor wrote:
ATC team tournament experience is irrelevant for anyone other than the captain of the team. He is the only one doing the pairings, an everyone else is just playing a singles game against the guy who is put in front of them.

Good lord, that's a pretty bleak view of how ATC works. Have you ever even attended? If so, did you just pile four minions in a van and point them at people and tell them to go win for your glory?

ATC is an enormously team-oriented undertaking. None of the captains I saw on the top tables were barking out orders to their teammates. Completely ignoring all the preparation that goes in before the events (mock pairings/test games/list concepts/etc), pretty much every teammate was also directly involved in the pairing process as well. It's not like the captains get locked in a glass box to make pairings--you huddle up and discuss which lists you'd do well or poorly against, and try to plan the pairings accordingly.

And for what it's worth, neither I or Aleong were the captain of the winning team--our friend Tony was the captain.

 Inquisitor_Malice wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:
ATC team tournament experience is irrelevant for anyone other than the captain of the team. He is the only one doing the pairings, an everyone else is just playing a singles game against the guy who is put in front of them. Adepticon has such a different team tournament format that the experience does not translate to anything usable in the ETC.

Actually, based on my experience at both the ATC and ETC, I disagree with you. The skills developed as either an attacker, a defender or a generalist directly translate to high level ETC play. These are corner stones to building a team and not just having a mix of good solid singles players. I have seen plenty of top singles players perform well in US singles events and then perform poorly (sometimes down right terrible) in team play at the ETC. And I stress team play. Having a player who understands their role on the team and is willing to perform that role (no matter how crappy/boring the play style may be) is extremely valuable in the ETC.

 Blackmoor wrote:
Adepticon has such a different team tournament format that the experience does not translate to anything usable in the ETC.

While the AdeptiCon team tournament is not as technical from a pairings and specific team roles concept, the team work required to succeed and win the tactician award is quite demanding. Again, solid team work is a corner stone to high level ETC play and you don't win AdeptiCon's Best Tactician without solid teamwork.

In the ATC/ETC format your job is to get as many points as possible from your opponent. If you are attacking it is to get max points. As a defender sometimes you get placed in a bad position and have to try to scrape 2 or 3 points out of the game, but the goal is the same.

At Adepticon you have 2 players together playing with only 1000 points. A weak player can really hide in this format and we have seen teams with a weak player do very well since they do not even have to do anything since a strong player can do everything for them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

OrdoSean wrote:
Also since youre referencing Kurt but then backtracking on referencing kurt... He is the captain of the ATC team he leads and the adepticon team... we make him do all the work. If youve ever seen us at the pairing process Im usually 4 tables away talking smack with some other team we arent even playing and getting yelled at by kurt to pay attention. Plus we also have two players on our team that play 40k only once a year, so Kurt builds their lists and gives them their game plan heading into each game. I mean it certainly helps that Im on his teams... but thats besides the point.

Hes like commissioner Gordon... and Im the joker. Hes got plans.... I dont have any plans... Im like a dog chasing a car Im so excited but I just wouldnt know what to do when I caught it... Id say hes like Batman but lets face it hes not that good...

I never referenced Kurt, he was just part of the quote when I posted my dislike of the team tournaments inclusion in the qualification system. I like Kurt, he is a very good player, and beat me in the later rounds off a Nova Open a few years ago. I have no problems with him being on the team.

But just to emphasize what others have said and I posted in the qualifying rules, while team events are in the system, they do not count whatsoever towards qualifying a player unless that player has other singles finishes. Team points are essentially locked away until a player unlocks them by finishing in a singles environment. This is to avoid the perception/reality/what have you of the potential for a player be carried.

Of course it's a lot easier to perform poorly at a team tourney - especially if your team mates throw you to the wolves .

Isnt that part of the game? where occasionaly your team needs someone to fall on the sword?