Hi, everyone. What do you think is a really great model, but with bad rules? For me, I've heard that the Nephilim Jetfighter for the Dark Angels has poor rules, but I got one anyway because I think it is one of the coolest models in the game.

flash gitz

Warp Talons: Probably one of the coolest model in the CSM line and also one of their worst unit.

Nobz: Despite being rather mediocre, especially compared to Mega Nobz, they are still usable.

Stormboyz: A bit in the same kind of situation than the nobz rule wise.

Tempestus Scion: outside of their codex they are rather poor elite unit with very little use (as troop choice with objective secure they are ok).

Tyranid Warriors: really cool models that can only be used effectively (and even then) with a very specific army list.

Incubus: melee specialist that rely on speed without offensive grenades (still ok, but should be better).

Space Marine Terminators

/thread

Probably the Vault from the Necron codex. It looks SUPER dangerous but really isn't.

Deff Dreads and Killa Kanz. They're walkers with lousy armor and short-ranged weapons that cost far too much for what little they do. It sucks because I love the deff dread models. They're probably my favorite in the ork codex.

Eldartank wrote:
Hi, everyone. What do you think is a really great model, but with bad rules? For me, I've heard that the Nephilim Jetfighter for the Dark Angels has poor rules, but I got one anyway because I think it is one of the coolest models in the game.

Most anything in an Imperial Guard Elites or Fast Attack slot for the most part. I own a ****ton of Stormtroopers (from old metals, to Kasrkin, DKoK Grenadiers, and even plastic Scions), but their rules are just awful. Hellhounds are another great example, cool models, but absurdly expensive tanks.

Tyranid Warriors are another good one. I *really* like the Warrior models, but there's just no way to make them work in the game's current state. They're a CC unit that lacks multiple good overlapping saves and any sort of meaninfgul speed that's easily ID'd out by gobs of commonly available weaponry. I didn't used to think the latter was a problem, but as the game has evolved and firepower outputs increased and the resiliency of other units dramatically increased as well, it's really become an issue.

DE flyers and Incubi. Love the models, their rules not so excited about.

The ork walkers that are between dreads and stompas (can't remember their name) Love the model, but I hear their rules aren't so great.

And the ultimate travesty of this list is the Tau Hammerhead. My favorite model in the entire GW catalog and its current rules just make it an after thought of times gone by.

Thirding tyranid warriors. I really like those models.

I got a huge pile of them incredibly cheap in an auction while the 5th edition codex was out. I was hoping they would become usable in 6th. Unfortunately they did not.
If they're good in the next codex, I've got about 30 ready to go.

 Jayden63 wrote:

And the ultimate travesty of this list is the Tau Hammerhead. My favorite model in the entire GW catalog and its current rules just make it an after thought of times gone by.

I don't think the Hammerhead is really all that bad on its own. It gets a jink save, has a gun big enough that kills through the vehicle damage chart are realistic, gets BS4, and can still toss around a pieplate (and without it preventing its secondary weapons like SMS's), for less than almost all naked Russ tanks. As far as *tanks* go in 7th edition, I really don't think it's all that bad.

It's just that everything *else* is so much better... and 7E really just doesn't like tanks

I second the mention of Warp Talons. Awesome models, crap rules. All they would have to add is allowing them to assault from deep strike and they would be amazing. As is, they are at best mediocre.

The OP mentioned the Nephilim Jetfighter. I don't know that it's so terrible, it was far worse in the 6th edition DA codex. Right now, it's probably the best anti-air power the DA have other than allies or Forgeworld.

Other units I could mention with great models and bad rules are Aun'shi, Asmodai, the Land Speeder Vengeance, the Gorkanaut/Morkanaut, Bloodcrushers of Khorne, any flavor of Terminators, Vespids, Electropriests, and probably more I'm not thinking of at the moment.

 sing your life wrote:
Space Marine Terminators
/thread

Ha!

Ogryns.

Blood Angels Codex.

/ using fake slash tag

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:

And the ultimate travesty of this list is the Tau Hammerhead. My favorite model in the entire GW catalog and its current rules just make it an after thought of times gone by.

I don't think the Hammerhead is really all that bad on its own. It gets a jink save, has a gun big enough that kills through the vehicle damage chart are realistic, gets BS4, and can still toss around a pieplate (and without it preventing its secondary weapons like SMS's), for less than almost all naked Russ tanks. As far as *tanks* go in 7th edition, I really don't think it's all that bad.

It's just that everything *else* is so much better... and 7E really just doesn't like tanks

just please bring back the vehicle Target Locks


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and how about flipping the question? what has great rules but lousey models?

Good looking models with lousy rules?
- SM Dreadnoughts of multiple varieties. (Always liked their look and fluff but being a walker gives it a death sentence in this edition)

Lousy models with good rules?
- GK Dreadnights

 carldooley wrote:

and how about flipping the question? what has great rules but lousey models?

Or how about rubbish rules and rubbish models? Pretty much the entire CSM codex :(

*orkanaut

Well maybe not lousy rules, but badly overcosted for what they do.

(although if they were assault vehicles it would mitigate the cost problem quite a lot, plus be very fluffy)

40k Lightning. The 30k Lightning is great, but the 40k rules are stuck in 3rd edition where a single autocannon was a pretty good weapon for a vehicle. It's just laughably undergunned compared to the other IG flyers and costs almost as much. The only remotely useful thing you can do with the model is try to proxy it as an Avenger.

Edit: proof that the model is great:

 carldooley wrote:

and how about flipping the question? what has great rules but lousey models?

The new Wulfen seem to have got that "niche" well covered. Or maybe the Chimera (how the feth does it's suspension work?)

 carldooley wrote:
and how about flipping the question? what has great rules but lousey models?

Titans, knights, and Tau MCs/GMCs. I would love to have those rules on a proper tank instead of completely implausible walkers and/or giant anime robots.

Mostly everything Niddy.

More specifically, Haruspex and Toxicrene.

 Peregrine wrote:
40k Lightning. The 30k Lightning is great, but the 40k rules are stuck in 3rd edition where a single autocannon was a pretty good weapon for a vehicle. It's just laughably undergunned compared to the other IG flyers and costs almost as much. The only remotely useful thing you can do with the model is try to proxy it as an Avenger.

Edit: proof that the model is great:

you know, images like that are reasons why these sites need Tb servers. That image is bigger than a lot of this site put together (excepting the other images)

OT, a single weapon with a platform wrapped around it are fine. the perception that it is undergunned is a result of escalation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EMUm8Zsfrk around :30

Great Model, Lousy rules:

Land Raider
Celestians
Orks - pretty much everythingthey have is stuck in 7th.

truely Dire models, great rules

Centurions
DreadKinght
Stormsurge
Avenger
All the GW Space marine flyers
Wulfen

 carldooley wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
40k Lightning. The 30k Lightning is great, but the 40k rules are stuck in 3rd edition where a single autocannon was a pretty good weapon for a vehicle. It's just laughably undergunned compared to the other IG flyers and costs almost as much. The only remotely useful thing you can do with the model is try to proxy it as an Avenger.

Edit: proof that the model is great:

you know, images like that are reasons why these sites need Tb servers. That image is bigger than a lot of this site put together (excepting the other images)

OT, a single weapon with a platform wrapped around it are fine. the perception that it is undergunned is a result of escalation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EMUm8Zsfrk around :30

No, the Nephilim really is undergunned. It should be a BS4 Avenger Stirke Fighter.

 Peregrine wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
and how about flipping the question? what has great rules but lousey models?

Titans, knights, and Tau MCs/GMCs. I would love to have those rules on a proper tank instead of completely implausible walkers and/or giant anime robots.

You are in the wrong fictional universe if you want that to happen friend.

Tau sniper drones i think are a good example ( i love the controller model).

Heavy bolter HWT for the guard, wait no ALL HWT teams.

IG snipers, use two cadian snipers in my list, they do better than what people expect but they need an upgrade, they were my second ever guard models from when i was a kid so i'm pretty close to them and want them to do better.

The aquilla lander...lol

Awesome Model, Lousy Rules:

The Pyrovore. I want to love you so badly man, but your rules just don't jive, even when compared to OTHER stuff in the nid codex.

Bloodcrushers. You had GOOD rules at one point man, what happened?

Awesome Rules, Lousy Model:

The Taurox: Decent, not great rules, but the thing looks like something Ork Mekboyz rejected.

Fleshhounds of Khorne. They look like lizards and the cost is ridiculous too. I'd rather get a box of 10 warhounds (which are literally half the cost for twice the amount!) than these guys.

Penitent Engines... so grimdark, so bad.

I'm going to have to second the Penitent Engine. Amazing Model, bad rules.

Lets see...

Anything with Terminator armour
Any Space Marine with a Heavy Bolter
About 90% of the Dark Eldar Codex.

Wyches. Great models, and I'd really like to run a Wych cult army, but their rules are just awful.

Great Models (especially with tons of conversion potential!) + Horrendously Awful Rules;
Chaos Lord
Daemon Prince
Dark Apostle
Warpsmith
Thousand Sons
Chaos Terminators
Possessed
Warptalons
Helbrute
Forge/Maulerfiend

Lousy Models + Lousy Rules;
Chaos Marines
Khorne Berserkers (lol! models aren't even from this century!)
Multilators!!
Chaos Land Raider
Chaos Predator
Chaos Vindicator
Defiler

Lousy Models + Average to Good Rules;
Plaguemarines
Noise Marines
Chaos Bikes
Obliterators

Good Models + Average to Good Rules;
Raptors
Hellturkey
Chaos Spawn


At least everyone for the most part has an entire range of good looking stuff... Chaos Marines get the worst rules, and are stuck with the fugliest model line in the game because, "feth Chaos!"

 sing your life wrote:
Space Marine Terminators

/thread

TH/SS Termies do quite well.

Archon, Mandrakes in 5th DE Codex, Orkanauts, Wyches, Flash Gitz

God the formatting in this thread is horrible. Horrible rules that look sweet, I find land raiders and the IG tanks. How the huge walkers are better than a heavy tank boggles my mind.

Land Raiders. Overpriced, undergunned and surprisingly fragile.

Leman Russ Vanquishers
Grey Knights Venerable Dreads
Deff Dreads
Inquisitors

Dark Eldar. Enough said.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Dark Eldar. Enough said.

I dunno, I've seen Venomspam do some terrible things to opponents. 12 poisoned shots plus a couple of blasters and splinter rifles from ONE platform is pretty obnoxious. The Dark Artisan formation ain't bad, either. I mean, I know it's pretty monobuild but it's not like Ork-level of suck. Now, the Archon's Court certainly qualifies as beautiful models with gak rules, compounded by the tragedy of Finecast-only releases.

 the_Armyman wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Dark Eldar. Enough said.

I dunno, I've seen Venomspam do some terrible things to opponents. 12 poisoned shots plus a couple of blasters and splinter rifles from ONE platform is pretty obnoxious. The Dark Artisan formation ain't bad, either. I mean, I know it's pretty monobuild but it's not like Ork-level of suck. Now, the Archon's Court certainly qualifies as beautiful models with gak rules, compounded by the tragedy of Finecast-only releases.

I agree with this. I played against a Dark Eldar list with like 6 venoms and 3 ravagers, with two units of jetbikes and a flyer. They trashed my Ravenwing very badly, partly due to some serious tactical blunders on my part but also because my opponent really knew how to use his army. I think all the complaining about DE is way off base after that game.

Dark Eldar usually do very well against relatively elite opponents like Ravenwing or Deathwing and the like. The problem is when they come up against something like Tau or Imperial Guard or Craftworld Eldar, they fall apart rather dramatically.

With my CSM's, going all the way back to 4th edition, my wins against DE are very few, but I don't think I've ever lost to DE with my IG in any edition.

Thousand sons.

smackpie wrote:
flash gitz

Flash gitz are not that bad at all, take about 7 and put them in a Big Trakk. I painted mine because I just love the models and since then have been using them consistently. They are not reliable but do some mighty fine execution every other game or so when you roll right for AP.

 Peregrine wrote:
40k Lightning. The 30k Lightning is great, but the 40k rules are stuck in 3rd edition where a single autocannon was a pretty good weapon for a vehicle. It's just laughably undergunned compared to the other IG flyers and costs almost as much. The only remotely useful thing you can do with the model is try to proxy it as an Avenger.

Edit: proof that the model is great:

Lightning

I have never liked it until now, that model looks fantastic. Great paintjob!

What came to my mind when I saw this thread: Flayed Ones - great models, great rules, but bad price.

Tactical Marines - the saviour of mankind.
Jack of all trades but master of none.

 wuestenfux wrote:
What came to my mind when I saw this thread: Flayed Ones - great models, great rules, but bad price.

Tactical Marines - the saviour of mankind.
Jack of all trades but master of none.

I was about to say, Flayed Ones got fantastic rules with their update.

But yeah, terrible price.

 wuestenfux wrote:
What came to my mind when I saw this thread: Flayed Ones - great models, great rules, but bad price.

Tactical Marines - the saviour of mankind.
Jack of all trades but master of none.

Yep - tactical marines win out for me too.

The Tyranid maleceptor is a killer model, but complete garbage rules.

 TheSilo wrote:
The Tyranid maleceptor is a killer model, but complete garbage rules.

Spoken like a true hero.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
What came to my mind when I saw this thread: Flayed Ones - great models, great rules, but bad price.

Tactical Marines - the saviour of mankind.
Jack of all trades but master of none.

Yep - tactical marines win out for me too.

Tactical Marines are bad

 krodarklorr wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:
The Tyranid maleceptor is a killer model, but complete garbage rules.

Spoken like a true hero.

GW: "hey guys, how about a worse version of a hive tyrant with a 2 warp charge witch fire on BS3 that wounds 50% of the time, doing d3 wounds or a glancing hit?"

"Sounds good, make it 200+ points!"

 TheSilo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:
The Tyranid maleceptor is a killer model, but complete garbage rules.

Spoken like a true hero.

GW: "hey guys, how about a worse version of a hive tyrant with a 2 warp charge witch fire on BS3 that wounds 50% of the time, doing d3 wounds or a glancing hit?"

"Sounds good, make it 200+ points!"

I honestly would compare it to a worse Tervigon. Both are slow, roughly the same size, and are Synapse. But for 5-10 points cheaper, you get +1 Wound, +1 Armor save, a ranged weapon, and spawns free points of units.

Mmmmm, makes me wanna buy 10 Maleceptors, if you ask me. I mean, after all, I just want them for my painting collection and not for actually using.

Sanguinary Guard. They so desperately need that invun save, another points reduction or some extra rules that makes them more in line with being the cream of he Blood Angels army fluffwise. They are 165 points base, but once you give them some upgrades like the banner and maybe an infernus or plasma pistol, they can easily get to 200 points.

Yes, in the right circumstances they can do alright (attached character/priest/librarian and against the right opponent), but whenever I have fielded them, they just die too quickly due to the amount of AP2 weaponry in the game. Look pretty, but have never impressed for me.

 Singleton Mosby wrote:

smackpie wrote:
flash gitz

Flash gitz are not that bad at all, take about 7 and put them in a Big Trakk. I painted mine because I just love the models and since then have been using them consistently. They are not reliable but do some mighty fine execution every other game or so when you roll right for AP.

Flash Gitz are awesome, people are just jealous of that flash dakka But seriously Flash GItz just need 4+ armor and then they would be great. Rolling the right AP turns them into a murder machine and they aren't chumps in close combat either (they can out punch most shooty infantry). I find them great at killing MEQs but are incredibly dependent on a transport (Battlewagon with Killkannon works well). I've seen some near jaw drops from my opponent who watched his unit of 10 man Grey Hunters turn into a fine red mist from the Gitz packing basically micro railgun rounds.

 Frozocrone wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
Space Marine Terminators

/thread

TH/SS Termies do quite well.

They... they do ok. The shields can't do gak against high volumes of non-AP2 shots that will utterly unless they take a land raider that costs over 500pts in total, but they can beat down most TEQs and MCs if get their positioning right. They're at least not an obselete trainwreck like regular SB/PF terminators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Khorne Berserkers (lol! models aren't even from this century!)

They're not even from this millennium

Experiment 626 wrote:
Great Models (especially with tons of conversion potential!) + Horrendously Awful Rules;
Forge/Maulerfiend

In what world are Maulerfiends bad?

I'm just going to echo what everyone else says, but the huge stand-out for me is the Tyranid Maleceptor. Possibly the single most beautiful plastic Tyranid model, yet it has the worst rules of any of the Tyranid monstrous creatures. A real shame.

Caederes wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Great Models (especially with tons of conversion potential!) + Horrendously Awful Rules;
Forge/Maulerfiend

In what world are Maulerfiends bad?

They're better in the Khorne Daemonkin book, but really, they need higher WS and at least double their current basic attacks. The new Dreadnought profiles tear these guys to pieces quite literally.
The only way to use Maulers is you have take 2-3, because 1 simply can't kill anything of even remote value.

At least Forgefiends get 8 shots to make up for their lousy BS3... (though they still cost too much, like pretty much everything does in that train wreck of a Codex)

 Vankraken wrote:

 Singleton Mosby wrote:

smackpie wrote:
flash gitz

Flash gitz are not that bad at all, take about 7 and put them in a Big Trakk. I painted mine because I just love the models and since then have been using them consistently. They are not reliable but do some mighty fine execution every other game or so when you roll right for AP.

Flash Gitz are awesome, people are just jealous of that flash dakka But seriously Flash GItz just need 4+ armor and then they would be great. Rolling the right AP turns them into a murder machine and they aren't chumps in close combat either (they can out punch most shooty infantry). I find them great at killing MEQs but are incredibly dependent on a transport (Battlewagon with Killkannon works well). I've seen some near jaw drops from my opponent who watched his unit of 10 man Grey Hunters turn into a fine red mist from the Gitz packing basically micro railgun rounds.

And that's what makes them worth it. Perhaps not every game, perhaps only one in three, but when they are killy they are dead killy.

I prefer the BIg Trakk since it is cheap and ignores 'crew shaken' results.

 Frozocrone wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
Space Marine Terminators

/thread

TH/SS Termies do quite well.

Archon, Mandrakes in 5th DE Codex, Orkanauts, Wyches, Flash Gitz

Tactical Termies are in the same boat as Tactical Marines.
Power fist and stormbolter. They usually die before they can dish out some damage.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Caederes wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Great Models (especially with tons of conversion potential!) + Horrendously Awful Rules;
Forge/Maulerfiend

In what world are Maulerfiends bad?

They're better in the Khorne Daemonkin book, but really, they need higher WS and at least double their current basic attacks. The new Dreadnought profiles tear these guys to pieces quite literally.
The only way to use Maulers is you have take 2-3, because 1 simply can't kill anything of even remote value.

At least Forgefiends get 8 shots to make up for their lousy BS3... (though they still cost too much, like pretty much everything does in that train wreck of a Codex)

A Maulerfiend also moves twice as fast as a Dreadnought - meaning you don't need to buy a Drop Pod for it - and is much harder to both stop and destroy. At worst it is a mediocre unit. It's actually one of the few decent units that Chaos Marines have access to.

The WS3 and I3 on the maulerfiend hurt a lot. It's faster than most walkers and gets a 5+ invul, but being an AV12 Heavy Support combat walker with A2 means it is, at best, mediocre.

WraithLords and WraithBlades. Both are gorgeous models with fantastic kits, but horrible rules. Points cost and slow movement make them unusable.

WraithLords are basically Eldar Dreadnaughts without the option to take a Drop Pod or be taken in squads. At least the WraithBlades can be alternately built as WraithGaurd to be used

 Galef wrote:
WraithLords and WraithBlades. Both are gorgeous models with fantastic kits, but horrible rules. Points cost and slow movement make them unusable.

WraithLords are basically Eldar Dreadnaughts without the option to take a Drop Pod or be taken in squads. At least the WraithBlades can be alternately built as WraithGaurd to be used

It actually makes me sad that these guys are terrible, but the Wraithknight is so OP. I love the WraithLords, I just wish they got more play time.

 Galef wrote:
WraithLords and WraithBlades. Both are gorgeous models with fantastic kits, but horrible rules. Points cost and slow movement make them unusable.

WraithLords are basically Eldar Dreadnaughts without the option to take a Drop Pod or be taken in squads. At least the WraithBlades can be alternately built as WraithGaurd to be used

If I had no soul and wanted to play Eldar those would be the models I would want to use. I absolutely hate the Wraithknight model (even when it was just a heavy support) but I generally like the way the smaller wraith models look.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The WS3 and I3 on the maulerfiend hurt a lot. It's faster than most walkers and gets a 5+ invul, but being an AV12 Heavy Support combat walker with A2 means it is, at best, mediocre.

Well it does get an extra Melta hit or two in melee, but overall yes it is mediocre as a whole.

 sing your life wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
Space Marine Terminators

/thread

TH/SS Termies do quite well.

They... they do ok. The shields can't do gak against high volumes of non-AP2 shots that will utterly unless they take a land raider that costs over 500pts in total, but they can beat down most TEQs and MCs if get their positioning right. They're at least not an obselete trainwreck like regular SB/PF terminators.

Iron Hands Assault Terminators with a biomancy librarian and an Inquisitor are borderline ridiculous. Ever tank 100+ Pulse rifle shots with a single model?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The WS3 and I3 on the maulerfiend hurt a lot. It's faster than most walkers and gets a 5+ invul, but being an AV12 Heavy Support combat walker with A2 means it is, at best, mediocre.

Well it does get an extra Melta hit or two in melee, but overall yes it is mediocre as a whole.

At best it's a poor man's Soul Grinder, at worst, it's a faster moving Helbrute.

For Khornekin, you can just take Soul Grinders and laugh. With CSM's, you can run a Mayhem Pack and laugh at the sheer amount of templates those puppies can drop.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Great Model, Lousy rules:

Land Raider
Celestians
Orks - pretty much everythingthey have is stuck in 7th.

truely Dire models, great rules

Centurions
DreadKinght
Stormsurge
Avenger
All the GW Space marine flyers
Wulfen

I actually think the Space Marine flyers are really cool looking. I also like the Dreadknight. Although I'm totally neutral about Space Wolf models, a friend of mine is a Space Wolf fanatic, and absolutely loves the new Wulfen models.

This is all a matter of personal perspective and preference, which is why I think this particular discussion is interesting and fun.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
WraithLords and WraithBlades. Both are gorgeous models with fantastic kits, but horrible rules. Points cost and slow movement make them unusable.

WraithLords are basically Eldar Dreadnaughts without the option to take a Drop Pod or be taken in squads. At least the WraithBlades can be alternately built as WraithGaurd to be used

It actually makes me sad that these guys are terrible, but the Wraithknight is so OP. I love the WraithLords, I just wish they got more play time.

You should have played when 4th edition Eldar came out. Wraithlords were boss back then, mainly because we had none of this gargantuan bullgak in normal 40k, nothing else had T8, and it had Strength 10 base.

I feel the possessed marines are pretty lack luster these days. I had bought some thinking the concept was kind of awesome. Then I played them.

Eldar Rangers are one, I'd say.

Squiggots -> Nice models,cool idea horrible pricing in points.

Warkoptas -> Cool idea orks could use a skimmer transport. But 65+ points for a hp2 10/10/10 bug seems to be a bit much

Scions. Adequate stats for the unit they represent (though upping them to WS4 wouldn't hurt) but at similar points to a tactical marine, just bad value.

Howling, freaking banshees... look great but seriously can we have furious charge please, I'd like to wound something at some point

Robin5t wrote:
Eldar Rangers are one, I'd say.

The Eldar Rangers that were available around the time 3rd Edition were mediocre, in my opinion. However, I really like the newer ones that came out a few years ago.

Robin5t wrote:
Eldar Rangers are one, I'd say.

maybe only within the Eldar codex itself...but they are by far the best sinper unit in the game for what they are, particularly next to something like Sniper Scouts or Ratlings.

Sniper units, even at their best, are “meh” these days. It’s a unit you can park on a backfield objective that has the range to technically affect the battle.

The old Eldar rangers were hit or miss. Some I think were better then the new ones, others worse. The modern ones are consistently good looking though. They were one of the first units I picked up when re-booting my Eldar army. One of the first new things painted as well.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Robin5t wrote:
Eldar Rangers are one, I'd say.

maybe only within the Eldar codex itself...but they are by far the best sinper unit in the game for what they are, particularly next to something like Sniper Scouts or Ratlings.

Seriously? Why? I'd say the Tau drones are way better.

Anything that belongs to the Tyranids.

 Torus wrote:
Howling, freaking banshees... look great but seriously can we have furious charge please, I'd like to wound something at some point

Nah, let them run and charge! Or give Eldar an assault transport.

Rangers use to be awesome when they were the only ones able to get something like a 4+ cover save while standing in the open, and a 2+ cover save in actual cover.

Nowadays everything either gets a 2+ cover save easily, or flat out ignores cover. And snipers got nerfed to hell. They're basically only good when compared to other units of their type, but that's about it.

Ork fliers The model is great but the rules are really bad.
GW must have known this since they just released 3 new formations all to sell just this single kit.

Really I can't immagine a non FW flier that can't stand his ground to these fliers, even transports win with ease from them. Why can't my meks just mount some decent guns on these planes. A bunch of traktor kannons or even twin linked Smasha guns would make them so much more interesting.

 Shandara wrote:

 Torus wrote:
Howling, freaking banshees... look great but seriously can we have furious charge please, I'd like to wound something at some point

Nah, let them run and charge! Or give Eldar an assault transport.

Oh God, running a charging a unit of Banshees with Jain Zar would be great, but the standard girls would still just bounce off anything with 4+ toughness

Are we allowing limited run models?
I'm going for the Spawn of Cryptus, looking at the new Patriarch rules are making me upset. They need only have let him be an independent character, then he could join a more customised unit, other than the bog standard Children. And some betters powers wouldn't go amiss.

Tyranid Warriors - I think the models are awesome, they are certainly very customizable. However, at T4 they just don't work. I'd happily drop Warriors Wounds to 2 in exhange for a bump to T5.

 jasper76 wrote:
Tyranid Warriors - I think the models are awesome, they are certainly very customizable. However, at T4 they just don't work. I'd happily drop Warriors Wounds to 2 in exhange for a bump to T5.

I dunno, I've had decent success with Warriors, though I'd be all for you're proposal.

Not sure if anyone has mentioned it, but Tesseract Vault. Fantastic model, next to worthless SHV.

Khorne Bloodcrushers..

Great models, but ruined also by T4.. they became insta-kill fodder to anyone with a S8 weapon

Wraithknights... fantastic models, bought 3 when you could have them as heavy support but try and use them now and you get beaten up with a metal dreadnought in a sock


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Oh and most of the Harlequin Dex... any help against deep striking flamers or flyers would be nice... that or a price decrease

 Torus wrote:
Wraithknights... fantastic models, bought 3 when you could have them as heavy support but try and use them now and you get beaten up with a metal dreadnought in a sock

I hadn't read anyone complain that WKs had terrible rules in a while, I guess since Dman last posted on the board.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Torus wrote:
Wraithknights... fantastic models, bought 3 when you could have them as heavy support but try and use them now and you get beaten up with a metal dreadnought in a sock

I hadn't read anyone complain that WKs had terrible rules in a while, I guess since Dman last posted on the board.

I think the problem he is saying is that fielding a Wraithknight makes others want to hurt him.

 Galef wrote:
WraithLords and WraithBlades. Both are gorgeous models with fantastic kits, but horrible rules. Points cost and slow movement make them unusable.

WraithLords are basically Eldar Dreadnaughts without the option to take a Drop Pod or be taken in squads. At least the WraithBlades can be alternately built as WraithGaurd to be used

I found Wraithlords scary to fight specially when my brother takes 3 of them. I just think they get overshadowed by everything else in the eldar codex.

My vote is for my Hell Talon Bomber. I miss the days when it could drop its full payload.

Mandrakes from the DE line.
Scourges from the DE line.
Wytches from the DE line.
Incubi from the DE line.

Notice a theme here?

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
What came to my mind when I saw this thread: Flayed Ones - great models, great rules, but bad price.

Tactical Marines - the saviour of mankind.
Jack of all trades but master of none.

Yep - tactical marines win out for me too.

Tactical Marines are bad

This gives context to his YMDC posts, at least.

Assault Marines, Shootinators, Flayed Ones.

Lousy Model, Good Rules?

Mephiston, Ragnar Blackmane, Skulltaker, Not-Deathwatch 5th Edition Cassius, Warp Spiders, Stormtalon/raven and Honour Guard, for lack of a vanilla kit for them.

 Vankraken wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Torus wrote:
Wraithknights... fantastic models, bought 3 when you could have them as heavy support but try and use them now and you get beaten up with a metal dreadnought in a sock

I hadn't read anyone complain that WKs had terrible rules in a while, I guess since Dman last posted on the board.

I think the problem he is saying is that fielding a Wraithknight makes others want to hurt him.

Eldar makes me want to hurt people.

That's why Gladius and Slyhammer exists.

 Torus wrote:
Howling, freaking banshees... look great but seriously can we have furious charge please, I'd like to wound something at some point

I've been using 20 of them in my list for a few months now, just because they are great models. I've found them to be not quite as bad as people make them out to be -- but they are still not great.

Perks
They have a few perks.
* They are wicked fast, with a 15" run on turn one if you are running the pale host formation.
* They have a reliable 10" (85%) charge with the 3" extra charge range. There is even a 39.81% of a 13" charge!
* The fear can be handy to help prevent incoming damage from armies that are effected by fear. The exarch helps with this.
* They have 'offensive grenades'.
* They are cheap (for aspect warriors)

Uses
I've used them to assault weaker units. In my last game with them, I used them to assault an IG CCS that had 4 flamers. My opponent was rather surprised when I made a 10" charge and ignored his "Wall of Death". Even though I had 3 banshees left for this assault, they still broke and swept the CCS.

I've used them to negate overwatch for my wraithknight. Lets say I want to assault that squad of grav cents with the wraithknight. I will assault with a banshee to negate the overwatch and then hit them with the wraithknight. This only works if the banshees make it in, as they can still overwatch the next if the initial charge was failed.

I've used them (with the executioner exarch) to assault light vehicles or war walkers. It's not ideal compared to spiders or hawks, but I've ticked off hull points before and killed eldar war walkers with the exarch.

I've used them for their shuriken pistols. Sure, it's not an ideal situation, but I've used the pistols to shoot at (and wound) wraithknights before. A lot of people forget the pistols, which are still half a guardian worth of firepower per model.

Overall
I doubt I'll keep them for the long term. I'm building another unit of hawks and spiders now and I'll probably swap them out for the others -- as the hawks and spiders are just to good to pass up. For now they are beautiful models that turned out really well when painted.

MathHammer
Charge Chance Ranges with and Without Fleet

3 97.22% 99.92%

 Torus wrote:
[Oh God, running a charging a unit of Banshees with Jain Zar would be great, but the standard girls would still just bounce off anything with 4+ toughness

If you look at the above numbers, and I can tell you from the games I've used them in, they are always in assault on turn 1 or 2 (depending if the opponent moved forward on turn one).
Having an effective range of 31" assault range by turn two means your going to get to most targets.

The biggest problem is the STR 3. Against bikes they are wounding on a 6. This means that 6 banshees w/Exarch assaulting bikes will look like this. (A realistic number as you will lose some when moving up on turn one)
2/3 (hit) * 1/6 (wound) * 15 attacks = 15/9 +
2/3 (hit) * 1/2 (wound) * 3 attacks = 1
or an average of 2.6 dead bikes. That's rather laughable. Against MEQ they do better, or about ~5 MEQ dead.

If you could give the girls furious charge from an Avatar or +1 STR from a spirit seer, then things start to change dramatically....

 Vankraken wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Torus wrote:
Wraithknights... fantastic models, bought 3 when you could have them as heavy support but try and use them now and you get beaten up with a metal dreadnought in a sock

I hadn't read anyone complain that WKs had terrible rules in a while, I guess since Dman last posted on the board.

I think the problem he is saying is that fielding a Wraithknight makes others want to hurt him.

Yeah, I understood that part. I still wouldn't call WKs lousy, maybe aggression-inducing could be a more applicable term. The Dreadsock is a multi-purpose model though, no matter the rules.

 Torus wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Torus wrote:
Wraithknights... fantastic models, bought 3 when you could have them as heavy support but try and use them now and you get beaten up with a metal dreadnought in a sock

I hadn't read anyone complain that WKs had terrible rules in a while, I guess since Dman last posted on the board.

I think the problem he is saying is that fielding a Wraithknight makes others want to hurt him.

Hmm. Maybe all the imbalance in 40k has been due to the switch to plastic. If you no longer need to fear the DreadSock, the cheese leaks out.

Bring back minis that can double as a murder weapon, and we might see more fair games!

Hellions. So much Hellions...

Sadly a good chunk of the Ork codex falls under this umbrella.

Boss Zagstruk and Kaptin Badrukk are amazing sculpts...but their rules are doodoo.

Similarly, the majority of the Ork walkers suffer the same issue as well, as well as normal Nobz and stormboyz.

wolf priests all the way, shame too as regular chaplains are ok.

dishounourable mention to shining spears as the models are pretty awful too.

It's been mentioned before, but I'll reiterate Deff dreads and Orkanauts.

I wasn't in love with the orkanaut model at first, but it's grown on me, and I've always loved deff dreads.


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Oh, I think I have a new one - Gargantuan squiggoths.

Jaw-dropping, fantastic model, but is, no joke, worse in CC than a warboss. Same strength, I, AP, one more attack, 3 worse WS. That's right, a space dinosaur has the same WS as a grot.

Stomps are ok, but unreliable. Its gun is decent, but I'd like more weapon options, and by that I mean any weapon options.

And I personally feel as if the T8 is utterly insufficient. It's somehow only as tough as weedy eldar wraith units, but it's a mountain of meat. It should be at LEAST T9, maybe T10.

This discussion can't be complete without the Coldstar Commander. A T4 FMC with literally all the good rules taken away, poor shooting, worse defensive options and no ability to pass off wounds.

Absolute garbage.

 raverrn wrote:
This discussion can't be complete without the Coldstar Commander. A T4 FMC with literally all the good rules taken away, poor shooting, worse defensive options and no ability to pass off wounds.

Absolute garbage.

T4? Does that mean he dies when he fails a grounding check?

 labmouse42 wrote:

 raverrn wrote:
This discussion can't be complete without the Coldstar Commander. A T4 FMC with literally all the good rules taken away, poor shooting, worse defensive options and no ability to pass off wounds.

Absolute garbage.

T4? Does that mean he dies when he fails a grounding check?

Yep, wounded one with swooping hawks moving over him to add insult to injury he suffered instant death when he failed the grounding check...

 Torus wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 raverrn wrote:
This discussion can't be complete without the Coldstar Commander. A T4 FMC with literally all the good rules taken away, poor shooting, worse defensive options and no ability to pass off wounds.

Absolute garbage.

T4? Does that mean he dies when he fails a grounding check?

Yep, wounded one with swooping hawks moving over him to add insult to injury he suffered instant death when he failed the grounding check...

That's crazy cinematic though. Silly, but cool.

My favorite is the fact as a MC - despite not having Smash, Vector Strike or Fear - you can still use Melta bombs against him.

And they also cause Instant Death.

 Torus wrote:
Yep, wounded one with swooping hawks moving over him to add insult to injury he suffered instant death when he failed the grounding check...

Wow....just wow. That's horrible.

I think chaos takes the cake for beautiful models with god awful rules. Raptors and warp talons capture that bad ass baroque chaos style perfectly but I get headaches imagining how they came up with the rules.