I was playing a game against the Tyrranids yesterday, and here's what I experienced:

Over 90 models on the table.
Flying monstrous creatures that could fire a dozen S6 BS 4 shots every turn...
...which could also generate warp charges and use psyker abilities like...psychic scream...
...which combined with the fact that it was used by a flyer, pretty much meant that it could go right into the middle of my units and mess things up.

So.

Why are the Tyrranids underpowered again?

Because they have no answers for GCs and SHVs outside of spamming Flyrants, most of their stuff is overcosted for what it does, their psykers are not good, and only a few of their powers are worth anything.

You experienced the Flyrant, which is one of the only good units Tyranids have.

MCs are OP in general, but Tyranid MCs are usually slow and have few ranged attacks. They can park on objectives in cover, though, and lists like BA have very few options. I can't shoot them off the objective, and I can't fight them in melee, either.

krodarklorr wrote:
Because they have no answers for GCs and SHVs outside of spamming Flyrants, most of their stuff is overcosted for what it does, their psykers are not good, and only a few of their powers are worth anything.

You experienced the Flyrant, which is one of the only good units Tyranids have.

That would be like saying that the Elder codex would be underpowered if they only had access to wraithknights and scatter bikes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
MCs are OP in general, but Tyranid MCs are usually slow and have few ranged attacks. They can park on objectives in cover, though, and lists like BA have very few options. I can't shoot them off the objective, and I can't fight them in melee, either.

The list I fought yesterday had something which gave most of his army shrouded. So, you know, there's that.

Because they really only have one or two viable builds. Dakka Flyrants, Venomthrope for the shrouding, maybe some Zoanthropes, maybe a Mawloc, maybe some Dakka Carnifexes. That's it.

Everything else you never see is usually pretty weak.

Traditio wrote:

krodarklorr wrote:
Because they have no answers for GCs and SHVs outside of spamming Flyrants, most of their stuff is overcosted for what it does, their psykers are not good, and only a few of their powers are worth anything.

You experienced the Flyrant, which is one of the only good units Tyranids have.

That would be like saying that the Elder codex would be underpowered if they only had access to wraithknights and scatter bikes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
MCs are OP in general, but Tyranid MCs are usually slow and have few ranged attacks. They can park on objectives in cover, though, and lists like BA have very few options. I can't shoot them off the objective, and I can't fight them in melee, either.

The list I fought yesterday had something which gave most of his army shrouded. So, you know, there's that.

Eldar also have aspects, good psychic abilities, a way to deal with just about anything, good skimmers, ext.

Tyranids have Flyrants and Mawlocs. Their infantry suck, Venomthropes are okay, but are outclassed by the Malanthrope from Forgeworld, most of their codex is slow, and if its fast, it's the epitome of fragile, and all of their MCs suck in CC, have no invulns, are BS 3 with no way to make it better, very few rerolls for anything outside of the Flyrant (again, hence why it's decent), and their whole army requires Synapse to function correctly (another reason people just take Flyrants and be done with it).

Did I mention their stuff is way too expensive?

 krodarklorr wrote:
Eldar also have aspects, good psychic abilities, a way to deal with just about anything, good skimmers, ext.

Tyranids have Flyrants and Mawlocs. Their infantry suck, Venomthropes are okay, but are outclassed by the Malanthrope from Forgeworld, most of their codex is slow, and if its fast, it's the epitome of fragile, and all of their MCs suck in CC, have no invulns, are BS 3 with no way to make it better, very few rerolls for anything outside of the Flyrant (again, hence why it's decent), and their whole army requires Synapse to function correctly (another reason people just take Flyrants and be done with it).

Did I mention their stuff is way too expensive?

Again, I still don't see this as an argument for tyrranids being underpowered. I see this as an argument for saying that the tyrranids codex is incredibly internally imbalanced, but not for them being underpowered, if you consider the most "optimal" lists that they can take.

If you spam flyrants, I'm going to have a bad time.*

Again, would you call the Tau codex underpowered if the only good unit in the book were the Riptide?


*Brownie points for anyone who catches the reference.

Traditio wrote:
I was playing a game against the Tyrranids yesterday, and here's what I experienced:

Over 90 models on the table.
Flying monstrous creatures that could fire a dozen S6 BS 4 shots every turn...
...which could also generate warp charges and use psyker abilities like...psychic scream...
...which combined with the fact that it was used by a flyer, pretty much meant that it could go right into the middle of my units and mess things up.

So.

Why are the Tyrranids underpowered again?

As others noted, pretty much all of that comes from one unit, set up with s specific set if wargear, the Flying Hive Tyrant.

The only really strong Tyranid lists out there spam as many as possible. Aside from that one configuration of that one unit however, the books has real problems and is far less impressive.

The army also has trouble dealing with certain threats that knock it out of contention frequently (e.g. Knights, heavy tanks, deathstars, etc)

There are 37 entries in the Tyranid Codex, not including FW or any dataslates for unique characters but including the WD entries for newer units.

Of those you see about 6 fielded in a competitive sense. That leaves 31 units that will never see competitive play and even at a casual level many of them are borderline useless.

Just take a look at the Malceptor or Pyrovore and understand that those things are not that far behind the power curve of the average Tyranid units.

That is why Tyranids are considered unde rpowered, they have one VERY over powered unit that is a crutch to hold the codex up in a competitive scene but outside of that one unit they are awful.

Traditio wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Eldar also have aspects, good psychic abilities, a way to deal with just about anything, good skimmers, ext.

Tyranids have Flyrants and Mawlocs. Their infantry suck, Venomthropes are okay, but are outclassed by the Malanthrope from Forgeworld, most of their codex is slow, and if its fast, it's the epitome of fragile, and all of their MCs suck in CC, have no invulns, are BS 3 with no way to make it better, very few rerolls for anything outside of the Flyrant (again, hence why it's decent), and their whole army requires Synapse to function correctly (another reason people just take Flyrants and be done with it).

Did I mention their stuff is way too expensive?

Again, I still don't see this as an argument for tyrranids being underpowered. I see this as an argument for saying that the tyrranids codex is incredibly internally imbalanced, but not for them being underpowered, if you consider the most "optimal" lists that they can take.

If you spam flyrants, I'm going to have a bad time.*

Again, would you call the Tau codex underpowered if the only good unit in the book were the Riptide?


*Brownie points for anyone who catches the reference.

You're inputting your own definition into what people mean when they say the Tyranid codex is UP.
Generally, there is only one great unit in the dex, the flyrant. The rest are above average to awful, but any good list (even the lictor shame one) is going to revolve around spamming flyrants.

While this is true for many OP lists, they often have several units that are viable to cover holes. The eldar, for example, have Scatbikes, WKs, Warp Spiders, and several other units that are good. If the nids lost flyrants, they would be strictly bottom tier. If the eldar lost bikes or the WK, they would be weaker, but still top tier.
That's the difference. It doesn't help that many nid players didn't own a ton of flyrants but did own many terrible units.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
There are 37 entries in the Tyranid Codex, not including FW or any dataslates for unique characters but including the WD entries for newer units.

Of those you see about 6 fielded in a competitive sense. That leaves 31 units that will never see competitive play and even at a casual level many of them are borderline useless.

Just take a look at the Malceptor or Pyrovore and understand that those things are not that far behind the power curve of the average Tyranid units.

That is why Tyranids are considered unde rpowered, they have one VERY over powered unit that is a crutch to hold the codex up in a competitive scene but outside of that one unit they are awful.

Tyranids are very much BA +1 unit.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
There are 37 entries in the Tyranid Codex, not including FW or any dataslates for unique characters but including the WD entries for newer units.

Of those you see about 6 fielded in a competitive sense. That leaves 31 units that will never see competitive play and even at a casual level many of them are borderline useless.

Just take a look at the Malceptor or Pyrovore and understand that those things are not that far behind the power curve of the average Tyranid units.

That is why Tyranids are considered unde rpowered, they have one VERY over powered unit that is a crutch to hold the codex up in a competitive scene but outside of that one unit they are awful.

In actual practice, this makes Tyrranids overpowered, not underpowered. If the only lists that you see actually being played spam one really overpowered unit, that makes them overpowered. It's really that simple.

Again, if the Tau only had riptides, and Tau players all spammed riptides, you'd still say that Tau are over-, not under-, -powered.

Traditio wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Eldar also have aspects, good psychic abilities, a way to deal with just about anything, good skimmers, ext.

Tyranids have Flyrants and Mawlocs. Their infantry suck, Venomthropes are okay, but are outclassed by the Malanthrope from Forgeworld, most of their codex is slow, and if its fast, it's the epitome of fragile, and all of their MCs suck in CC, have no invulns, are BS 3 with no way to make it better, very few rerolls for anything outside of the Flyrant (again, hence why it's decent), and their whole army requires Synapse to function correctly (another reason people just take Flyrants and be done with it).

Did I mention their stuff is way too expensive?

Again, I still don't see this as an argument for tyrranids being underpowered. I see this as an argument for saying that the tyrranids codex is incredibly internally imbalanced, but not for them being underpowered, if you consider the most "optimal" lists that they can take.

If you spam flyrants, I'm going to have a bad time.*

Again, would you call the Tau codex underpowered if the only good unit in the book were the Riptide?


*Brownie points for anyone who catches the reference.

"You have some gak right here"

"That's my face, sir"

Anyway, even the cheesy Flyrant build doesn't compare to most of the top lists nowadays.

You summed up the flyrant, the best possible choice in the entire book.
Other than that it has a huge stock of poor choices for every job.

They struggle badly against GC's or SHV's.

They really are lacking in most departments and the flyrants can only carry them so far.



Hate to say that about them aswell since I've always been an avid Tyranid player, but 90% of the choices in the book are like pouring your points down the sink.

Best bet is stock up flyrants and build the rest of the army defensive to hold out and hope the flyrants don't get shot down.

Have a look through the Tyranids codex, the Leviathan Rising DLC, the couple of units whose rules are on BL, an the Shield of Baal supplement. First off, Nids have their rules scattered between 6 different books/pdf's.

After going through it, if you honestly cannot come up with instant solutions to the vast majority of their units, you need to read it again. No joke, a Heavy Bolter devastator squad is a serious threat to nearly every non MC in the book. How many other armies are legitimately threatened by 4 marines with heavy bolters?

StarHunter25 wrote:
Have a look through the Tyranids codex, the Leviathan Rising DLC, the couple of units whose rules are on BL, an the Shield of Baal supplement. First off, Nids have their rules scattered between 6 different books/pdf's.

After going through it, if you honestly cannot come up with instant solutions to the vast majority of their units, you need to read it again. No joke, a Heavy Bolter devastator squad is a serious threat to nearly every non MC in the book. How many other armies are legitimately threatened by 4 marines with heavy bolters?

You mean, the vast majority of their units that rarely, if ever, see play?

Even the flyrant isnt top tier competitive anymore, the highest ranked Tyranid list at the LVO was...43rd.

Traditio wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
There are 37 entries in the Tyranid Codex, not including FW or any dataslates for unique characters but including the WD entries for newer units.

Of those you see about 6 fielded in a competitive sense. That leaves 31 units that will never see competitive play and even at a casual level many of them are borderline useless.

Just take a look at the Malceptor or Pyrovore and understand that those things are not that far behind the power curve of the average Tyranid units.

That is why Tyranids are considered unde rpowered, they have one VERY over powered unit that is a crutch to hold the codex up in a competitive scene but outside of that one unit they are awful.

In actual practice, this makes Tyrranids overpowered, not underpowered. If the only lists that you see actually being played spam one really overpowered unit, that makes them overpowered. It's really that simple.

Again, if the Tau only had riptides, and Tau players all spammed riptides, you'd still say that Tau are over-, not under-, -powered.

No it doesn't. For one since they only have a single unit that is good they are stuck taking mediocre troops to get that one good unit so their list is never 100% good like Tau or Eldar lists are. And second since their list is literally spamming the same unit when they fight an army the CAN deal with flyrants they lose because their list doesn't have any versatility so if their one gimmick is countered they have no back up plan and lose. This keeps them from being overpowered competitively.

S6 spam does have some limitations, too, albeit few. Eldar fill in the gaps with D weapons. What do the Tyranids have?

Martel732 wrote:
S6 spam does have some limitations, too, albeit few. Eldar fill in the gaps with D weapons. What do the Tyranids have?

Flying monstrous creatures that can make smash attacks.

Traditio wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
There are 37 entries in the Tyranid Codex, not including FW or any dataslates for unique characters but including the WD entries for newer units.

Of those you see about 6 fielded in a competitive sense. That leaves 31 units that will never see competitive play and even at a casual level many of them are borderline useless.

Just take a look at the Malceptor or Pyrovore and understand that those things are not that far behind the power curve of the average Tyranid units.

That is why Tyranids are considered unde rpowered, they have one VERY over powered unit that is a crutch to hold the codex up in a competitive scene but outside of that one unit they are awful.

In actual practice, this makes Tyrranids overpowered, not underpowered. If the only lists that you see actually being played spam one really overpowered unit, that makes them overpowered. It's really that simple.

Again, if the Tau only had riptides, and Tau players all spammed riptides, you'd still say that Tau are over-, not under-, -powered.

No, I'd say the riptide is overpowered. The riptide is part of the Tau codex, but the Tau codex is not its riptide. A codex is more than the value of its single strongest unit.

They suffer from both terrible internal balance and what little they have that is good isn't that good.

Lets look at the top four codexes generally
Eldar
Marines
Necron
Tau

All four books you can pretty much bring anything to the table and have a good shot of winning depending on the Meta. Those books have really strong combos but the base strength is above average and almost ever unit has some use. There is one or two stinkers but what codex doesn't.

Nids neither have variety or strength.

Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
S6 spam does have some limitations, too, albeit few. Eldar fill in the gaps with D weapons. What do the Tyranids have?

Flying monstrous creatures that can make smash attacks.

If a FMC is on the ground to fight in CC its dead.

Here, I've come to a conclusion awhile ago as to why the Tyranid book is among the worst right now.

Take any build you could think of. Psychic Deathstars, Shooty, melee, deathstar in general, gunline, Mobile, hard hitting, Flying Circus, swarms, ext.

Every build Tyranids can realistically pull off, there is another book, if not multiple other books, that do it better.

So you put a flying FMC on the ground to get shot?
It's much safer in the air.

The whole idea of a FMC is the F part

All I see in this thread is someone got their ass handed to them with a flyrant list and wants validation in calling his opponent a cheesemonger.

Don't feed the trolls kids.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
They suffer from both terrible internal balance and what little they have that is good isn't that good.

Lets look at the top four codexes generally
Eldar
Marines
Necron
Tau

All four books you can pretty much bring anything to the table and have a good shot of winning depending on the Meta. Those books have really strong combos but the base strength is above average and almost ever unit has some use. There is one or two stinkers but what codex doesn't.

Nids neither have variety or strength.

That is totally not true with marines or tau. Both lists have many bad choices, especially the marines.

 Jackal wrote:
So you put a flying FMC on the ground to get shot?
It's much safer in the air.

The whole idea of a FMC is the F part

The question that was proposed, as I understood it, was: "What do Tyrranids have to deal with things that can't be killed with S6 spam?"

The answer is: monstrous creatures (including flying monstrous creatures) that can make smash attacks.

If the tyrranid player doesn't want to use them that way, that's his problem.

Traditio wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
So you put a flying FMC on the ground to get shot?
It's much safer in the air.

The whole idea of a FMC is the F part

The question that was proposed, as I understood it, was: "What do Tyrranids have to deal with things that can't be killed with S6 spam?"

The answer is: monstrous creatures (including flying monstrous creatures) that can make smash attacks.

If the tyrranid player doesn't want to use them that way, that's his problem.

I dare you to go smash that WK. Or smashfucker.

Smash attacks are a joke now. One str10? As if. If you think one str10 attack that has to roll to hit and trades all other attacks away is even worth thinking about, I can't help you. Smash will almost never be used and will be useless 99% of the time it is used. Be realistic.

If you're relying on a smash attack, you're gonna have a bad time.

Traditio, the codex is underpowered because the majority of the units are gak. There's a difference between an individual unit and an entire codex. If riptides were the only good unit in the tau dex I would call them underpowered, yes, because the majority of their codex wouldn't be able to be played competitively. That's what underpowered means.

If a codex has only one build that can even have a chance at winning, it's underpowered.

Just because you lost a game doesn't mean the codex is good. Always focus on the cover enhancing gribblies and pop a fly rant or two and you win. The venomthrope is T4 with 2 wounds, any str8 instasplats it, I'm sure your army has that. Once you learn the tricks tyranids have, they're too easy to counter. Play them a few more times.

Martel732 wrote:
I dare you to go smash that WK. Or smashfucker.

If the WK is equipped with sword and board, you have the option to ignore it. Likewise with smashfether.

Traditio wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
So you put a flying FMC on the ground to get shot?
It's much safer in the air.

The whole idea of a FMC is the F part

The question that was proposed, as I understood it, was: "What do Tyrranids have to deal with things that can't be killed with S6 spam?"

The answer is: monstrous creatures (including flying monstrous creatures) that can make smash attacks.

If the tyrranid player doesn't want to use them that way, that's his problem.

And we're telling you thats not a solution. FMCs after changing from flying to walking on the ground have to wait a whole turn before it can declare an assault. This gives your opponent for then enough time to kill a T6 4W 3+ MC dead before it even gets the chance to declare a charge. This is the same problem their foot MCs have which is they will die before they can even declare a charge.

Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
S6 spam does have some limitations, too, albeit few. Eldar fill in the gaps with D weapons. What do the Tyranids have?

Flying monstrous creatures that can make smash attacks.

FMCs that can be instakilled by D Weapons on platforms they can barely hurt, Force Weapons they get zero chance to protect against and that cost nearly the same as Lords of War in good armies. And frankly, Smash is crap.

Go try to play Tyranids and you'll see what the issue is. Spamming all of two units is not a fun way to play and it does in fact mean the codex is underpowered. You want to keep comparing it to Eldar and Tau, but Eldar and Tau have alternative options. Tyranids do not. Take away Scatter Laser Jetbikes and you STILL have Warp Spiders, Wave Serpents, more D Weapons than should ever have been included, Rending on every random guy and incredible Psychic Powers. Take away Riptides and Tau still have suits that can Ignore Cover with 4 S6 AP2 shots per model, ignore line of sight with S5 missiles, Ignore Cover via Markerlights, Skyfire, Interceptor, S10 guns, S8 guns and all the usual tools an army is expected to have.

Traditio, do you really think smash is useful at all or even worth thinking about? Is it an actual point of contention for you regarding the power level of the codex?

Or are you just trolling?

You don't have the option to ignore a wraith knight. Most of your units can't get away, and the ones that can will die to the rest of the eldar list anyway while you spend time running from the wraith knight. It moves twelve inches a turn, remember. Few nids units can do that that aren't stuck in the sky. And your mc's are useless against strD.

The answer to your OP is: "because they obviously are"

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Traditio, do you really think smash is useful at all or even worth thinking about? Is it an actual point of contention for you regarding the power level of the codex?

Or are you just trolling?

I don't think you guys really understand how minimal and uncontroversial a claim it is that I am making:

My claim is simply that the tyrannid codex does have options to take out things that S6 spam can't deal with.

Whether or not they have effective options for so doing is another matter.

It's as though I told you that my devastators with missile launchers (but no flakk missiles) can take out a flyrant.

Can they do so effectively? Maybe not. But they can in principle do so.

Yes, Tyranids are better than BA, but both have crap codices.

So...you're admitting that your argument is essentially worthless and was just made to be technically correct?

Memes aside, that seems somewhat pointless.

Traditio wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Traditio, do you really think smash is useful at all or even worth thinking about? Is it an actual point of contention for you regarding the power level of the codex?

Or are you just trolling?

I don't think you guys really understand how minimal and uncontroversial a claim it is that I am making:

My claim is simply that the tyrannid codex does have options to take out things that S6 spam can't deal with.

Whether or not they have effective options for so doing is another matter.

It's as though I told you that my devastators with missile launchers (but no flakk missiles) can take out a flyrant.

Can they do so effectively? Maybe not. But they can in principle do so.

Okay, yes. Lets go by what you're saying. They have options (albeit highly ineffective) to deal with stuff. How does that make them OP?

Right. But your title says "why is the codex considered underpowered". Smash is a poor means of dealing with anything, and you citing it as an option to deal with things str6 spam can't is showing that their options for doing so are terrible, which affects the power level of the codex.

Nids are bad, mmkay?

Thinking about it, I'm not so sure that a Tyranid list would far well vs an Angel's Fury list. Just another example of how thigns can go wrong for Nids.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Okay, yes. Lets go by what you're saying. They have options (albeit highly ineffective) to deal with stuff. How does that make them OP?

It doesn't, if your opponent is spamming OP crap too. If your opponent is using wraithknights and scatter bikes, well...good game, Tyrranids player. You lose.

Barring that?

Different story, bro.

Nids really aren't that bad.

Their drop pod creatures are disgusting
Dakkafex not bad
Flyrants are always kicking butt
2+ shrouding everywhere you look
Tervigon - spawning free fearless troops and being practically indestructible?
Toxicrine?
zonethropes not bad ether.

They are just weak on anti tank with high armor value and rely heavily on cover. Out of the armies that are considered bad i think they are probably the best of those.

Top of the dung heap isn't exactly a great endorsement

Traditio wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Okay, yes. Lets go by what you're saying. They have options (albeit highly ineffective) to deal with stuff. How does that make them OP?

It doesn't, if your opponent is spamming OP crap too. If your opponent is using wraithknights and scatter bikes, well...good game, Tyrranids player. You lose.

Barring that?

Different story, bro.

Lets say that Tyranids spam OP crap. that would explain why the top player at LVO was, what did someone say? 40th something place?

Lets say they don't. Then they really can't compete.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nids really aren't that bad.

Their drop pod creatures are disgusting
Dakkafex not bad
Flyrants are always kicking butt
2+ shrouding everywhere you look
Tervigon - spawning free fearless troops and being practically indestructible?
Toxicrine?
zonethropes not bad ether.

They are just weak on anti tank with high armor value and rely heavily on cover. Out of the armies that are considered bad i think they are probably the best of those.

Oh yeah. That's the other thing that I didn't like about playing the Tyrannid player yesterday.

In addition to the fact that he had OP flying monsters and a horde of shrouded creatures, they were apparently also fearless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Traditio wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Okay, yes. Lets go by what you're saying. They have options (albeit highly ineffective) to deal with stuff. How does that make them OP?

It doesn't, if your opponent is spamming OP crap too. If your opponent is using wraithknights and scatter bikes, well...good game, Tyrranids player. You lose.

Barring that?

Different story, bro.

Lets say that Tyranids spam OP crap. that would explain why the top player at LVO was, what did someone say? 40th something place?

Lets say they don't. Then they really can't compete.

You misread what I said. Reread.

Traditio wrote:

Oh yeah. That's the other thing that I didn't like about playing the Tyrannid player yesterday.

In addition to the fact that he had OP flying monsters and a horde of shrouded creatures, they were apparently also fearless.

Because you don't know how to deal with their Synapse Creatures.

You misread what I said. Reread.

Not sure I did. If both players are spamming OP gak, Tyranids lose. If both players aren't, then Tyranids will probably lose. Just because you lost doesn't make them OP.

Martel732 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
They suffer from both terrible internal balance and what little they have that is good isn't that good.

Lets look at the top four codexes generally
Eldar
Marines
Necron
Tau

All four books you can pretty much bring anything to the table and have a good shot of winning depending on the Meta. Those books have really strong combos but the base strength is above average and almost ever unit has some use. There is one or two stinkers but what codex doesn't.

Nids neither have variety or strength.

That is totally not true with marines or tau. Both lists have many bad choices, especially the marines.

Pretty much every unit in the SM codex is
1. Good on its own. (Lib, Bikes, Scouts, LSS, TFC.) Or 2. has a formation that makes it decent (Tacticals, Assault Marines, Devastators, Tech Marine, Razorbaks)

The only unit that is totally useless is assault Cents and that's because S and P assault units never work.

This list obviously narrows the more competitively your local scene leans but I like the shape my book is in

Given traditio's last thread where he got thrashed for another goal-post moving topics and inability to address most posters other than via the usual "you didn't get what I said", I think its safe to say he's just baiting again.

 Grimskul wrote:
Given traditio's last thread where he got thrashed for another goal-post moving topics and inability to address most posters other than via the usual "you didn't get what I said", I think its safe to say he's just baiting again.

I've kind of gathered that. It really doesn't matter if he thinks Tyranids are lolzomg OP, the consensus, well, everywhere, is that they're not.

They're better than csm, maybe BA, maybe even dark eldar even though it's the worst match up for them.

I wouldnt hesitate to call that codex underpowered, as a whole. It's certainly worse off than my daemons dex.

I'm beginning to think perhaps instead of thinking about solutions to the problems you face when you lose, you come here looking to argue against popular opinion or find someone who feels the same way you do. In short, a sore loser.

The things you're saying gave you trouble in your game, gave me trouble the first time too. They are easily countered and are nothing compared to what the top tier or mid tier armies can bring even in a casual list. Those fearless troops die fast. Tervigons really aren't hard to kill, and won't do much damage anyway. Cover guys can be sniped early. The only thing that doesn't have an easy answer is the flyrant.

What army do you play? If you say csm or BA, I'll understand you alot more.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Given traditio's last thread where he got thrashed for another goal-post moving topics and inability to address most posters other than via the usual "you didn't get what I said", I think its safe to say he's just baiting again.

I've kind of gathered that. It really doesn't matter if he thinks Tyranids are lolzomg OP, the consensus, well, everywhere, is that they're not.

Prettty much. Nids are in a weird spot alongside Orks, CSM, Guard and a few other factions that feel like they're the NPC's of 40K right now where their armies seem to function more as punching bags for the "big 4 of 40K" (Eldar, Tau, SM and Necrons) rather than legitimate foes that can go toe-to-toe with them without having to use crutch units to spam (wyverns for guard, flyrants for nids, bikers/tankbustas for Orks, heldrakes for CSM).

Traditio wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nids really aren't that bad.

Their drop pod creatures are disgusting
Dakkafex not bad
Flyrants are always kicking butt
2+ shrouding everywhere you look
Tervigon - spawning free fearless troops and being practically indestructible?
Toxicrine?
zonethropes not bad ether.

They are just weak on anti tank with high armor value and rely heavily on cover. Out of the armies that are considered bad i think they are probably the best of those.

Oh yeah. That's the other thing that I didn't like about playing the Tyrannid player yesterday.

In addition to the fact that he had OP flying monsters and a horde of shrouded creatures, they were apparently also fearless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Traditio wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Okay, yes. Lets go by what you're saying. They have options (albeit highly ineffective) to deal with stuff. How does that make them OP?

It doesn't, if your opponent is spamming OP crap too. If your opponent is using wraithknights and scatter bikes, well...good game, Tyrranids player. You lose.

Barring that?

Different story, bro.

Lets say that Tyranids spam OP crap. that would explain why the top player at LVO was, what did someone say? 40th something place?

Lets say they don't. Then they really can't compete.

You misread what I said. Reread.

If you lost to that Tyranid army, the Tyranids are the least of your concerns.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
The only thing that doesn't have an easy answer is the flyrant.

And flyrants get spammed.

So. If you can show me that flyrants are underpowered, I'll grant that tyrranids are underpowered.

Dude.

The flyrant is not the codex.

I don't know what more to say to you.

One spammable build does not a good codex make.

Traditio wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
The only thing that doesn't have an easy answer is the flyrant.

And flyrants get spammed.

So. If you can show me that flyrants are underpowered, I'll grant that tyrranids are underpowered.

Guys, just move on to another thread now. He obviously thinks one unit makes a whole codex overpowered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Dude.

The flyrant is not the codex.

I don't know what more to say to you.

Semi-ninja'd. Doh.

 Nameless45 wrote:
No, I'd say the riptide is overpowered. The riptide is part of the Tau codex, but the Tau codex is not its riptide. A codex is more than the value of its single strongest unit.

If a codex has one and precisely one usable unit and that one and precisely one unit consistently gets spammed, then, for all practical purposes, that codex is that unit.

Tyrranids, for all practical intents and purposes, are codex: Flyrants.

Traditio wrote:

 Nameless45 wrote:
No, I'd say the riptide is overpowered. The riptide is part of the Tau codex, but the Tau codex is not its riptide. A codex is more than the value of its single strongest unit.

If a codex has one and precisely one usable unit and that one and precisely one unit consistently gets spammed, then, for all practical purposes, that codex is that unit.

Incorrect. It means that a single unit is overpowered.

Also, Codex: Tau Empire not only has the riptide, but the Stomrsurge, Buffmander, Missilesides, Crisis Suits, and Stealth Suits as good, competitive options. Therefor, the codex has a lot more to offer. There's a reason Tau are considered OP.

Tyranids have.....wait for it.....Flyrants.

Traditio wrote:

 Nameless45 wrote:
No, I'd say the riptide is overpowered. The riptide is part of the Tau codex, but the Tau codex is not its riptide. A codex is more than the value of its single strongest unit.

If a codex has one and precisely one usable unit and that one and precisely one unit consistently gets spammed, then, for all practical purposes, that codex is that unit.

Tyrranids, for all practical intents and purposes, are codex: Flyrants.

Still doesn't make them overpowered. For one since they only have a single unit that is good they are stuck taking mediocre troops to get that one good unit so their list is never 100% good like Tau or Eldar lists are. And second since their list is literally spamming the same unit when they fight an army the CAN deal with flyrants they lose because their list doesn't have any versatility so if their one gimmick is countered they have no back up plan and lose. This keeps them from being overpowered competitively.

Flyrant aren't even OP either... they're just a good unit in an otherwise pretty disappointing codex.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Traditio wrote:

 Nameless45 wrote:
No, I'd say the riptide is overpowered. The riptide is part of the Tau codex, but the Tau codex is not its riptide. A codex is more than the value of its single strongest unit.

If a codex has one and precisely one usable unit and that one and precisely one unit consistently gets spammed, then, for all practical purposes, that codex is that unit.

Incorrect. It means that a single unit is overpowered.

Also, Codex: Tau Empire not only has the riptide, but the Stomrsurge, Buffmander, Missilesides, Crisis Suits, and Stealth Suits as good, competitive options. Therefor, the codex has a lot more to offer. There's a reason Tau are considered OP.

This point has been made previously. This simply displays a misunderstanding of what I've argued earlier. I spoke counterfactually:

Even if the Tau only had riptides, and riptides consistently got spammed, you would be forced to say two things:

1. The Tau codex has just become Codex: Riptides

and

2. Codex: Riptides is overpowered.

Tyranids have.....wait for it.....Flyrants.

And that's consistently what gets spammed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Flyrant aren't even OP either... they're just a good unit in an otherwise pretty disappointing codex.

Please explain to me how Flyrants aren't OP. I would love to hear that.

Flyrants aren't op because they are only capable of spamming S6 shots.
Take, for example, the mentioned Riptides. It's sporting a 2+ save that makes it incredibly difficult for the flyrant to remove. A flyrant will cost equal points, can fire pretty much the entire game, and most likely will not kill the tide (assuming FnP).

The same is true of many 2+ save units. The flyrant must land and spend a turn on land and then engage. If the Flyrant could charge from flying, it would be OP and tyranids would most likely be a top tier codex.


To sum up;
The other amazing codexes might have 1-2 signature units/combos/formations that make them top tier, but they have other excellent units that plug up the gaps the OP units have. Tyranids don't have units that solve the problems the Flyrant can't solve.

Except one unit can't win the game especially when it especially ones whose strength is to fly around and shoot. If it's doing that it's not scoring an objectives, and this becomes especially painful in Maelstorm missions where the tyranids only hope is to basically table your opponent.

As for dealing with the Flyrant, the best solution i've found is a Dunecrawler with an Icarus Aray. The amount of sky fire that unit can put in the air is staggering and one shot is AP2 so you punch through his armor and another ignores cover so jinking doesn't help.

Akiasura wrote:
Flyrants aren't op because they are only capable of spamming S6 shots.

Take, for example, the mentioned Riptides. It's sporting a 2+ save that makes it incredibly difficult for the flyrant to remove. A flyrant will cost equal points, can fire pretty much the entire game, and most likely will not kill the tide (assuming FnP).

The same is true of many 2+ save units. The flyrant must land and spend a turn on land and then engage. If the Flyrant could charge from flying, it would be OP and tyranids would most likely be a top tier codex.


To sum up;
The other amazing codexes might have 1-2 signature units/combos/formations that make them top tier, but they have other excellent units that plug up the gaps the OP units have. Tyranids don't have units that solve the problems the Flyrant can't solve

That completely ignores the fact that flyrants:

1. Are flyers
2. Have lots of wounds
3. Have high toughness
4. Are psykers
5. Are monstrous creatures and have all of the relevant monstrous creature rules.

Your point essentially comes down to the following:

1. Flyrants aren't all powerful.
2. Other codices have even more OP things.

Sorry, but neither of this is an argument that flyrants are not OP.

So, I have a question. Lets say I run a list with a single Flyrant with no S6 shooting, little gribblies, and some Deep Striking MCs. Ala, my normal list.

Is this list OP?

 krodarklorr wrote:
So, I have a question. Lets say I run a list with a single Flyrant with no S6 shooting, little gribblies, and some Deep Striking MCs. Ala, my normal list.

Is this list OP?

I'll suspend judgment, given that I haven't played your list.

Traditio wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
Flyrants aren't op because they are only capable of spamming S6 shots.

Take, for example, the mentioned Riptides. It's sporting a 2+ save that makes it incredibly difficult for the flyrant to remove. A flyrant will cost equal points, can fire pretty much the entire game, and most likely will not kill the tide (assuming FnP).

The same is true of many 2+ save units. The flyrant must land and spend a turn on land and then engage. If the Flyrant could charge from flying, it would be OP and tyranids would most likely be a top tier codex.


To sum up;
The other amazing codexes might have 1-2 signature units/combos/formations that make them top tier, but they have other excellent units that plug up the gaps the OP units have. Tyranids don't have units that solve the problems the Flyrant can't solve

That completely ignores the fact that flyrants:

1. Are flyers
2. Have lots of wounds
3. Have high toughness
4. Are psykers
5. Are monstrous creatures and have all of the relevant monstrous creature rules.

Your point essentially comes down to the following:

1. Flyrants aren't all powerful.
2. Other codices have even more OP things.

Sorry, but neither of this is an argument that flyrants are not OP.

Dude flyrants don't have a high toughness and don't have a lot of wounds. Also being a psyker doesn't mean anything when they are stuck rolling their mediocre codex powers which only like 2 out of 6 are good.

It's an interesting proposition, but I have a suspicion you won't listen to a word I say.

Next time, make your title "I think the tyranids codex isn't overpowered and won't listen to anyone else's opinion".

Then we'll all know what to expect when we come here. I expected you wanted an answer to your question and you've had several.

Traditio wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
So, I have a question. Lets say I run a list with a single Flyrant with no S6 shooting, little gribblies, and some Deep Striking MCs. Ala, my normal list.

Is this list OP?

I'll suspend judgment, given that I haven't played your list.

The correct answer is no, given the information from numerous people in this thread. The information that has pointed to Flyrants being the only powerful unit in the codex.

So, if I'm not spamming that powerful, OP unit, my list is not OP.

Therefor Tyranids are not OP. The Hive Tyrant is OP.

Can you not just concede the fact that the Hive Tyrant is OP (Kind of. It's still not super good against other OP options in other books), whereas the Tyranid book as a whole, is not?

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
It's an interesting proposition, but I have a suspicion you won't listen to a word I say.

Next time, make your title "I think the tyranids codex isn't overpowered and won't listen to anyone else's opinion".

Then we'll all know what to expect when we come here. I expected you wanted an answer to your question and you've had several.

I fully understand the answer. Tyrranids have lots of units in their codex that are practically unusable.

I fully understand and grant the point.

But that's practically irrelevant, granted that those units, because they are unusable, don't see actual play.

It rings hollow if you tell me that Tyrannids are underpowered because of all of the units that I won't be playing against.

The problem Tradito is that you aren't running an army that can deal with Flyrants. Flyrants have weaknesses that all of the good armies can exploit. It just sounds like you didn't run a proper army against them.

If you want you could post your list and we can tell you what you are doing wrong.

You asked about the codex. We told you. When you say codex, I assume you mean the codex.

Your acceptance of the experience and opinion of a vast majority of people is not my responsibility.

Traditio wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
It's an interesting proposition, but I have a suspicion you won't listen to a word I say.

Next time, make your title "I think the tyranids codex isn't overpowered and won't listen to anyone else's opinion".

Then we'll all know what to expect when we come here. I expected you wanted an answer to your question and you've had several.

I fully understand the answer. Tyrranids have lots of units in their codex that are practically unusable.

I fully understand and grant the point.

But that's practically irrelevant, granted that those units, because they are unusable, don't see actual play.

It rings hollow if you tell me that Tyrannids are underpowered because of all of the units that I won't be playing against.

Actually, a lot of Tyranid players use stuff besides Flyrants. The only time you'll see that many Flyrants is in a competitive setting. In which case, bring a competitive list, and you'll do fine against it. If you're trying to fight 5 Flyrants with Cultists and Thousand Sons, yeah, you'll be disappointed.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Dude flyrants don't have a high toughness

Oops. You are correct. I was under the impression that they were T7...I just checked and realized that I was in error.

and don't have a lot of wounds.

They have 4 wounds.

That means, on average, my devastators have to snapshoot somewhere in the ballpark of 24-30 krak missiles just to take one down (not counting feel no pain, if conferred by psyker abilities).

Also being a psyker doesn't mean anything when they are stuck rolling their mediocre codex powers which only like 2 out of 6 are good.

Psychic scream.

The other ability that my opponent was using conferred FNP.

I really don't have much more to say on the issue.

Traditio wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
It's an interesting proposition, but I have a suspicion you won't listen to a word I say.

Next time, make your title "I think the tyranids codex isn't overpowered and won't listen to anyone else's opinion".

Then we'll all know what to expect when we come here. I expected you wanted an answer to your question and you've had several.

I fully understand the answer. Tyrranids have lots of units in their codex that are practically unusable.

I fully understand and grant the point.

But that's practically irrelevant, granted that those units, because they are unusable, don't see actual play.

It rings hollow if you tell me that Tyrannids are underpowered because of all of the units that I won't be playing against.

If I recall correctly you play marines ?

You have access to many things, in book and via allies that can put a flyrant down in a respectable way. If you don't take any of that don't complain that your paper meet a scissor

Traditio wrote:

Psychic scream.

The other ability that my opponent was using conferred FNP.

I really don't have much more to say on the issue.

It's not psychic scream. It is much, much worse. If my Flyrant could cast Psychic Scream, I'd be overjoyed.

Traditio wrote:

and don't have a lot of wounds.

They have 4 wounds.

That means, on average, my devastators have to snapshoot somewhere in the ballpark of 24-30 krak missiles just to take one down (not counting feel no pain, if conferred by psyker abilities).

Take Flakk Missiles or the Stalker detachment in support of your Gladius Strike Force.

Actually, now that I think of it...

I was running sternguard. I could have snapshot hellfire rounds at it and wounded on 2s...doh

Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Dude flyrants don't have a high toughness

Oops. You are correct. I was under the impression that they were T7...I just checked and realized that I was in error.

and don't have a lot of wounds.

They have 4 wounds.

That means, on average, my devastators have to snapshoot somewhere in the ballpark of 24-30 krak missiles just to take one down.

Also being a psyker doesn't mean anything when they are stuck rolling their mediocre codex powers which only like 2 out of 6 are good.

Psychic scream.

I really don't have much more to say on the issue.

4 wounds is nothing. 4 marines have 4 wounds. Are you saying thats hard to kill?. a flyrant is only 4 marines with T6 in durability. Thats really easy to kill

And psychic scream does (2d6+2)-LD wounds. The average roll for psychic scream is 9. So after Ld on average they only do 0-1 wounds and most of the time they don't do any wounds. And thats only if it succefully casts and successfuly hits

Maybe the OP is confusing the tournament meta vs the casual meta. In casual games, Nids are fine, strong even in some match-ups, without spamming flyrants, brutal if they are spammed. They have lots of decent builds for anti-infantry/light vehicle, fewer builds for anti-heavy armour, and zero builds for anti-SH/GMC, but in a non-competitive meta, infantry heavy armies are pretty common. Casual games are also more horde-friendly, where a truly dedicated Nid collector can cause all sorts of havoc. It almost seems that the OP went into a casual game and faced off against a tournament build, which ALWAYS leads to rants like this. Lord knows we've all been there, done that.

As far as tournaments go, Nids are not all that. Flyrant spam is really all they have, as the truly massive horde builds are simply no good in a timed tournament, and there are too many hard counters to ground pounder Nidzilla.

Traditio wrote:
Actually, now that I think of it...

I was running sternguard. I could have snapshot hellfire rounds at it and wounded on 2s...doh
.

Again, not knowing your own options does not make a fine excuse to cry something is OP.

 CrownAxe wrote:
4 wounds is nothing. 4 marines have 4 wounds. Are you saying thats hard to kill?

If those four marines were T6 and had flying, they would be difficult to kill.

 CrownAxe wrote:
And thats only if it succefully casts and successfuly hits

In it's defense, it is a Nova, and doesn't have to roll to hit. It can also be used while in CC (if, of course, it lives long enough).

Traditio wrote:
Actually, now that I think of it...

I was running sternguard. I could have snapshot hellfire rounds at it and wounded on 2s...doh

My recommendation is to try and hit the Flyrant with Flakk Missiles and force grounding tests. Once it's on the ground, unleash the Hellfire Dakka

 krodarklorr wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
And thats only if it succefully casts and successfuly hits

In it's defense, it is a Nova, and doesn't have to roll to hit. It can also be used while in CC (if, of course, it lives long enough).

What deeply annoyed me about psychic scream is the following:

1. It affected ALL enemy units within 6 inches

and

2. Didn't allow saves of any kind.

At that point, I was like: "Screw it. I quit. You win."

Traditio wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
Flyrants aren't op because they are only capable of spamming S6 shots.

Take, for example, the mentioned Riptides. It's sporting a 2+ save that makes it incredibly difficult for the flyrant to remove. A flyrant will cost equal points, can fire pretty much the entire game, and most likely will not kill the tide (assuming FnP).

The same is true of many 2+ save units. The flyrant must land and spend a turn on land and then engage. If the Flyrant could charge from flying, it would be OP and tyranids would most likely be a top tier codex.


To sum up;
The other amazing codexes might have 1-2 signature units/combos/formations that make them top tier, but they have other excellent units that plug up the gaps the OP units have. Tyranids don't have units that solve the problems the Flyrant can't solve

That completely ignores the fact that flyrants:

1. Are flyers

I didn't ignore the fact they are flyers at all. I specifically mentioned that this stops them from charging since if they land, they die.
That is a rule unique to FMCs. So yeah, mentioned. Being a flyer has nothing to do with their offensive output outside of mobility.

Traditio wrote:

2. Have lots of wounds
3. Have high toughness

T isn't bad, but it isn't great (8+ or when it's cheap is when T starts being good. Notice nurgle bikers aren't amazing anymore and are cheaper per wound). Their wound count isn't very impressive either (compare, for example, to a Riptide or a WK).
The only thing that keeps them alive is the 6's to hit and skyfire being very expensive. The second they land, they die to weight of fire (their saves aren't great either).

Traditio wrote:

4. Are psykers
5. Are monstrous creatures and have all of the relevant monstrous creature rules.

If you roll biomancy, psyker can benefit. Some of the other powers are good too, although many are situational since the Flyrant is often ahead of the army and can't buff. They tend not to get a lot of WCs as an army either in most builds.
The MC rules don't matter too much outside of the flying and shooting. Which I did mention.

Traditio wrote:

Your point essentially comes down to the following:

1. Flyrants aren't all powerful.
2. Other codices have even more OP things.

Sorry, but neither of this is an argument that flyrants are not OP.

Sure it is. OP is a relative place.
If Marines had Str 5 shred 30" bolters with Bs 2 against flying MCs, Flyrants would be awful.
Just so, scatbikes and Tau in general have made the Flyrants a lot weaker. Guide on scatbikes allows you to punch holes in flyrants, and markerlights remove the flying advantage.

The bar for OP has moved far away from flyrants. I say this as someone who plays many of the top tier armies and nids.

So your complaining about having an issue with a flying unit while running a list with no skyfire? This really makes your complaints baseless.

 War Kitten wrote:

Traditio wrote:
Actually, now that I think of it...

I was running sternguard. I could have snapshot hellfire rounds at it and wounded on 2s...doh

My recommendation is to try and hit the Flyrant with Flakk Missiles and force grounding tests. Once it's on the ground, unleash the Hellfire Dakka

Flakk missiles are such a waste of points, though. That's an extra 40 points per devastator squad. And at AP4, the flyrant still gets saves.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
So your complaining about having an issue with a flying unit while running a list with no skyfire? This really makes your complaints baseless.

Sounds very much like a problem with the OP, not the unit/codex in question.

Traditio wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
And thats only if it succefully casts and successfuly hits

In it's defense, it is a Nova, and doesn't have to roll to hit. It can also be used while in CC (if, of course, it lives long enough).

What deeply annoyed me about psychic scream is the following:

1. It affected ALL enemy units within 6 inches

and

2. Didn't allow saves of any kind.

At that point, I was like: "Screw it. I quit. You win."

Yes, and it's 2D6+2 - LD. That's severely worse than Psychic Scream. It also allows Invulns, just like Psychic Scream.

Traditio wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:

Traditio wrote:
Actually, now that I think of it...

I was running sternguard. I could have snapshot hellfire rounds at it and wounded on 2s...doh

My recommendation is to try and hit the Flyrant with Flakk Missiles and force grounding tests. Once it's on the ground, unleash the Hellfire Dakka

Flakk missiles are such a waste of points, though. That's an extra 40 points per devastator squad. And at AP4, the flyrant still gets saves.

Take a stalker or Hunter or a dunecrawler or a Stormtalon or a Mortis Comtempter dred, Etc. You have options to deal with flying things.

HoundsofDemos wrote: or a Mortis Comtempter dred

What page of the C:SM is that?

Traditio wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote: or a Mortis Comtempter dred

What page of the C:SM is that?

Thats a Forge World unit option

Ok. My personal griping aside:

With the exception of specifically tailoring my list to facing flyrants and tyrranids,

What are the things I should keep in mind, tactically speaking, when facing tyrranids? In particular, assuming no skyfire.

Traditio wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:

Traditio wrote:
Actually, now that I think of it...

I was running sternguard. I could have snapshot hellfire rounds at it and wounded on 2s...doh

My recommendation is to try and hit the Flyrant with Flakk Missiles and force grounding tests. Once it's on the ground, unleash the Hellfire Dakka

Flakk missiles are such a waste of points, though. That's an extra 40 points per devastator squad. And at AP4, the flyrant still gets saves.

And in this case might have won the game for you, which would have made them points well spent.

You play marines?
Sternguard you already touched on. Wounding on 2+ removes a big part of their defense.

Divination helps a lot too. Re-rolling to hit makes flying a lot worse (can double the amount of hits you score).

Force weapons are nice, but can be difficult to wound.

A bike captain armed to the teeth can go toe to toe with any unit in the Nid codex.

Grav-centstar does well. The bolters are good against the basic troops and the grav weapons destroy the MCs quite well. Teleporting around helps quite a bit and allows you to avoid CC.

Nids also have problems against GSF as well. They can typically destroy only 2-3 transports a turn until near the end of the game.

Kill the venomthrope. Hit flyrant with sky fire, even one unsaved wound can cause him to drop, take another, and get charged. Kill the big monsters. Get a few points from objectives.

if he spams flyrants play defensively and outscore him because he can't score unless he wants his flyrants to die miserably. Or take some sky fire and plink them away one by one at range, in cover.

Like I said these things you think make tyranids good are very manageable by almost any army.

Traditio wrote:
Ok. My personal griping aside:

With the exception of specifically tailoring my list to facing flyrants and tyrranids,

What are the things I should keep in mind, tactically speaking, when facing tyrranids? In particular, assuming no skyfire.

Taking AA options isnt list tailoring, its just a wise choice in this age of flyers. Maybe have two lists on with AA/Flyers and one with out.

Akiasura wrote:
Divination helps a lot too. Re-rolling to hit makes flying a lot worse (can double the amount of hits you score).

Force weapons are nice, but can be difficult to wound.

A bike captain armed to the teeth can go toe to toe with any unit in the Nid codex.

Grav-centstar does well. The bolters are good against the basic troops and the grav weapons destroy the MCs quite well. Teleporting around helps quite a bit and allows you to avoid CC.

I don't use librarians, bikes or centurions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Kill the venomthrope. Hit flyrant with sky fire...

...Or take some sky fire

Reading comprehension. It's a thing.

Traditio wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
Divination helps a lot too. Re-rolling to hit makes flying a lot worse (can double the amount of hits you score).

Force weapons are nice, but can be difficult to wound.

A bike captain armed to the teeth can go toe to toe with any unit in the Nid codex.

Grav-centstar does well. The bolters are good against the basic troops and the grav weapons destroy the MCs quite well. Teleporting around helps quite a bit and allows you to avoid CC.

I don't use librarians, bikes or centurions.

If your not going to use the tools your army provide for you how can you expect to actually do well?

Take Skyhammer. 50% of the time youll win just by virtue of going first because you kill the flyrants on the ground and then hes got nothing left. Then if you only win half the games you go second you are winning 75%. Pretty good I'd say.

Okay, maybe you should post what you have. Bikes and Cents are some of the strongest options you have.

If you are spamming something like Devs w/o pods and grav, or ASM, I can see why you'd struggle.

CrownAxe wrote:If your not going to use the tools your army provide for you how can you expect to actually do well?

I use the tools that my army provides. I use tacticals, devastators, assault marines and honour guard.

Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:If your not going to use the tools your army provide for you how can you expect to actually do well?

I use the tools that my army provides. I use tacticals, devastators, assault marines and honour guard.

So you use 20% of your entire army options. Thats nothing

Your trying to build a house and insisting on only using a single hammer

CrownAxe wrote:Your trying to build a house and insisting on only using a single hammer

I also forgot sternguard. I run 3 squads of those.

Pedro Kantor, a chaplain and a captain.

Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:Your trying to build a house and insisting on only using a single hammer

I also forgot sternguard. I run 3 squads of those.

Pedro Kantor, a chaplain and a captain.

Ok 21%. Still not enough. The units you take aren't designed to do everything. That's why you can't beat flyrants because you didn't take any skyfire.

you can't not take the tools to deal with flying units then complain about flying units

Again you can't complain something is to powerful if your going to take things that are not good at fighting flyers, have us point out that if you took unit xyz that you would be good. Taking a unit with skyfire is not list tailoring in this day and age since every single codex has access to flyers.

If your dead set on never taking anything but one combination of units then your going to run into hard counters.

It's kind of list tailoring, because there aren't that many troublesome fliers.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Ok 21%. Still not enough. The units you take aren't designed to do everything. That's why you can't beat flyrants because you didn't take any skyfire.

you can't not take the tools to deal with flying units then complain about flying units

Ok. So apart from "take skyfire," you have no other tactical advice?

Brilliant.

Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Ok 21%. Still not enough. The units you take aren't designed to do everything. That's why you can't beat flyrants because you didn't take any skyfire.

you can't not take the tools to deal with flying units then complain about flying units

Ok. So apart from "take skyfire," you have no other tactical advice?

Brilliant.

If you have lots of transports, it will take them quite a while to crack them. If you are fast, you can zoom past them and make them turn around the hard way.

What other tactical advice do you want? Ignore the Tyrant and work on securing objectives? Wipe out the rest of the Army? Snap shot it until you force it to the ground and then have Kantor and Honor Guard Charge him?

TO DEFEAT THE CYBER-DEMON, SHOOT IT UNTIL IT DIES. Is pretty much all we can give you with out you wanting to expand the list.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again you can't complain something is to powerful if your going to take things that are not good at fighting flyers, have us point out that if you took unit xyz that you would be good. Taking a unit with skyfire is not list tailoring in this day and age since every single codex has access to flyers.

If your dead set on never taking anything but one combination of units then your going to run into hard counters.

You and the others are basically making my point for me:

If I specifically have to tailor my list to deal with whatever it is that you are bringing, and you have no other tactical advice than "change your list," then whatever it is that you are bringing is OP.

Nor can you complain that your codex is underpowered.

If your codex were underpowered, you all wouldn't be insisting that I tailor my list to deal with that codex.

End of story.

Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Ok 21%. Still not enough. The units you take aren't designed to do everything. That's why you can't beat flyrants because you didn't take any skyfire.

you can't not take the tools to deal with flying units then complain about flying units

Ok. So apart from "take skyfire," you have no other tactical advice?

Brilliant.

What do you expect? If you ran an army with no guns that can hurt tanks and then asked on how to deal with tanks then the solution is to actually bring something that can hurt a tank. Because there is no amount of "tactics" that will let you deal with something you literraly can't hurt.

You're pretty unfriendly, I must say.

No one here is trying to do anything other than help you.

Like I said earlier, you don't want to listen, that is not our fault. I'm not the only person here who is mentioning to take units that can actually hurt flyers.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
What other tactical advice do you want? Ignore the Tyrant and work on securing objectives? Wipe out the rest of the Army? Snap shot it until you force it to the ground and then have Kantor and Honor Guard Charge him?

TO DEFEAT THE CYBER-DEMON, SHOOT IT UNTIL IT DIES. Is pretty much all we can give you with out you wanting to expand the list.

Lets ignore the flyrant for now. What about the other components of the average tyrranid lists? What's the ordinary target priorities?

Rhinos are a surprisingly decent counter to Flyrants because they waste at least a turn of fire popping it. Something like Gladius just slogs them down so much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Traditio wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
What other tactical advice do you want? Ignore the Tyrant and work on securing objectives? Wipe out the rest of the Army? Snap shot it until you force it to the ground and then have Kantor and Honor Guard Charge him?

TO DEFEAT THE CYBER-DEMON, SHOOT IT UNTIL IT DIES. Is pretty much all we can give you with out you wanting to expand the list.

Lets ignore the flyrant for now. What about the other components of the average tyrranid lists? What's the ordinary target priorities?

My fragnoughts pay a visit to the venomthropes. "Nice cover bonus, bro". Or, sternguard vets with ignore cover ammo. It has also come to my attention that many MCs really dont' want to fight it out with a WS 5, AV 13 walker.

Martel732 wrote:
My fragnoughts pay a visit to the venomthropes. "Nice cover bonus, bro". Or, sternguard vets with ignore cover ammo. It has also come to my attention that many MCs really dont' want to fight it out with a WS 5, AV 13 walker.

Under what circumstances do the "primal instincts" or whatever rule of the tyrranids kick in?

Also, how do I strip the fearless bonus. What do I need to kill?

As Martel said, remove their cover saves. Take out their other big bugs, take advantage of your Hellfire Bolts, yes they will get armor, but you should be causing enough wounds to bring them down. Have the Devs help with it.

Use your Tacs and AM to take out the smaller bugs and take objectives.

Traditio wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again you can't complain something is to powerful if your going to take things that are not good at fighting flyers, have us point out that if you took unit xyz that you would be good. Taking a unit with skyfire is not list tailoring in this day and age since every single codex has access to flyers.

If your dead set on never taking anything but one combination of units then your going to run into hard counters.

You and the others are basically making my point for me:

If I specifically have to tailor my list to deal with whatever it is that you are bringing, and you have no other tactical advice than "change your list," then whatever it is that you are bringing is OP.

Nor can you complain that your codex is underpowered.

If your codex were underpowered, you all wouldn't be insisting that I tailor my list to deal with that codex.

End of story.

Marines great assets is the ability to first strike - the drop pod. You should include a few in every list you take if you aren't running gladius. If an army has something you can't handle in the long run kill it on turn one. Skyhammer formation lets you drop relelntless devestator squads on turn 1 and 2 and lets you assault with 2 assault squads out of deep strike...what more can you ask for against the nids?

Also, I think ASM can just punch out venomthropes. DC certainly can.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
As Martel said, remove their cover saves.

And I do this by killing the venomthropes?

Use your Tacs and AM to take out the smaller bugs and take objectives.

How are the smaller bugs in close combat? Is charging a good idea, or no?

Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
My fragnoughts pay a visit to the venomthropes. "Nice cover bonus, bro". Or, sternguard vets with ignore cover ammo. It has also come to my attention that many MCs really dont' want to fight it out with a WS 5, AV 13 walker.

Under what circumstances do the "primal instincts" or whatever rule of the tyrranids kick in?

Also, how do I strip the fearless bonus. What do I need to kill?

You get rid of fearless by killing the units with the synapse rule (it makes a bubble of fearless)

Flyrants have the synapse rule so you need to kill them to get rid of it.

Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
My fragnoughts pay a visit to the venomthropes. "Nice cover bonus, bro". Or, sternguard vets with ignore cover ammo. It has also come to my attention that many MCs really dont' want to fight it out with a WS 5, AV 13 walker.

Under what circumstances do the "primal instincts" or whatever rule of the tyrranids kick in?

Also, how do I strip the fearless bonus. What do I need to kill?

You want to kill the hive tyrants if you can - the next bet target is going to be his synapse creatures - they give fearless to everything in range.

Xenomancers wrote:You want to kill the hive tyrants if you can - the next bet target is going to be his synapse creatures - they give fearless to everything in range.

Which ones are those?

Smaller bugs don't stack up well to meqs, really. I know I bang on meqs a lot, but this is something they are actually good at.

What is your loadout for honor guard? Devs? Can you take anything we tell you to?

What does your transport situation look like? Do you have none?

Sternguard are probably the best unit you have, imo. They have special ammo that counters many of what the nids bring. I would try to deploy them so that they kill the Flyrants first, although this will be difficult.

In order of what to target, list matters. Generally its

1) Flyrant. The most firepower. Sternguard are your best bet unless you have more options than you've listed. Try to ground them then wipe them out in CC with the ASM/honor guard.

2) Venomthropes. You must kill these or the ground army gets cover saves and becomes tough to remove. If the sternguard aren't too busy, they counter these really well. Drop podding marines or devs with strong weapons can in a pinch.

3) Dakkafex. Devs should target these unless targeting above.

4) The rest.


Sadly, you have some of the worst units in the dex and are lacking all of the good ones.

Traditio wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
As Martel said, remove their cover saves.

And I do this by killing the venomthropes?

Yes, it will drastically reduce their cover saves

Use your Tacs and AM to take out the smaller bugs and take objectives.

How are the smaller bugs in close combat? Is charging a good idea, or no?

Shoot with the Tacs, Shoot and Charge with the AM.

With 3 units of Sternguard, drop pods are a must and can easily deal with a Flyrant first turn before it gets off the ground (providing you get the first turn that is).

Grav-cents are phenomenal against MC heavy armies. If you are playing Codex Marines, they are too good a counter for a lot of the problem units out there. They are expensive though, and tend to see reduced returns against less heavily armoured infantry.

I don't exactly see taking AA units as "list tailoring" because flyers and skimmers feature so heavily in most armies. That's like saying taking a lascannon is list tailoring because its mainly useful against high AV and T units.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
With 3 units of Sternguard, drop pods are a must and can easily deal with a Flyrant first turn before it gets off the ground (providing you get the first turn that is).

Grav-cents are phenomenal against MC heavy armies. If you are playing Codex Marines, they are too good a counter for a lot of the problem units out there. They are expensive though, and tend to see reduced returns against less heavily armoured infantry.

I don't exactly see taking AA units as "list tailoring" because flyers and skimmers feature so heavily in most armies. That's like saying taking a lascannon is list tailoring because its mainly useful against high AV and T units.

Only a little tailoring, really. I prefer to max firepower vs nightmare threats like WKs and DKs. A flyer is usually pretty limited in how much damage it can cause.

The fact that they get to hit skimmers as well means my Dunecrawler usually is not lacking for targets and with his rate of fire and formation bonus means that even with just snap shots I can still put holes in things.

Considering that half the armies in the game have most if not all skimmer vehicles.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The fact that they get to hit skimmers as well means my Dunecrawler usually is not lacking for targets and with his rate of fire and formation bonus means that even with just snap shots I can still put holes in things.

Considering that half the armies in the game have most if not all skimmer vehicles.

That does help skyfire a lot. Personally, I'd love to field Stalker tanks, as they are pretty hard to take out and can score backfield objectives while pouring out fire.

Traditio wrote:
I was playing a game against the Tyrranids yesterday, and here's what I experienced:

Over 90 models on the table.
Flying monstrous creatures that could fire a dozen S6 BS 4 shots every turn...
...which could also generate warp charges and use psyker abilities like...psychic scream...
...which combined with the fact that it was used by a flyer, pretty much meant that it could go right into the middle of my units and mess things up.

So.

Why are the Tyrranids underpowered again?

If you are struggling against Tyranids, perhaps you should try something just a hair easier . . . like Farmville . . . or Candy Crush . . .

To someone who is not fielding optimal combos, Tyranids could be a problem. You are beating Nids with tac marines, that's for sure.

Assuming he's bringing lots of gaunts I'd atleast be happy my bolters have something worth shooting for once.

There is not a single unit in the tyranid codex that a basic lasgun cannot damage.
I don't think you can say that about any other army in the game.

Arson Fire wrote:
There is not a single unit in the tyranid codex that a basic lasgun cannot damage.
I don't think you can say that about any other army in the game.

Legion of the Damned

 CrownAxe wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
There is not a single unit in the tyranid codex that a basic lasgun cannot damage.
I don't think you can say that about any other army in the game.

Legion of the Damned

Traditio wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again you can't complain something is to powerful if your going to take things that are not good at fighting flyers, have us point out that if you took unit xyz that you would be good. Taking a unit with skyfire is not list tailoring in this day and age since every single codex has access to flyers.

If your dead set on never taking anything but one combination of units then your going to run into hard counters.

You and the others are basically making my point for me:

If I specifically have to tailor my list to deal with whatever it is that you are bringing, and you have no other tactical advice than "change your list," then whatever it is that you are bringing is OP.

You have seriously misunderstood the nature of 40k's list building.
Including one unit of AA isn't list tailoring, it's covering your bases.

What if his opponent brings tanks, but bringing lascannons and melta guns are list tailoring?

I remember last time I played Tyranids, I had imperial guard, and the game went something like:

"Alright, you blokes with the Lascannons! Fire on my target: the squiddly bug in there you can't see!"

"Sir yes sir"

"Ok, now we'll take all these blast templates, and we'll put them over in that direction!"

By end of turn 2, his 2000 point army was two flyrants, and all I had to do was sit on objectives and let them flutter around popping the odd tank. Flyrants are mean but they've got little board control, and GW likes giving Nids real survivability as much as they like giving it to orks. Ignores cover suddenly being handed out like candy to everyone really hurts Nids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
There is not a single unit in the tyranid codex that a basic lasgun cannot damage.
I don't think you can say that about any other army in the game.

Legion of the Damned

Technically, can't you not wound anything tougher than S6 with a lasgun? Or am I wrong and strength v toughness never falls off?

In which case, Cult Mech can also be damaged in such a way, no vehicles.

Traditio wrote:
That would be like saying that the Elder codex would be underpowered if they only had access to wraithknights and scatter bikes.

That's a rather poor comparison. The thing about the Eldar codex is that most of the units there are at least decent.
If you picked a unit, such as dark reapers, out of the codex and put them into another codex they would be in the list of 'autotake'.
Sure, there are a few duds like storm guardians, but most of the units are good. Hell, I've even made good use from shining spears in the codex.

If a codex only has 2-3 good units, then it's options are much more limited.

This thread is still going?

Oh geez...

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Smash attacks are a joke now. One str10? As if. If you think one str10 attack that has to roll to hit and trades all other attacks away is even worth thinking about, I can't help you. Smash will almost never be used and will be useless 99% of the time it is used. Be realistic.

If you're relying on a smash attack, you're gonna have a bad time.

A few weeks ago, I was at a local GW store. A guy's talos was in assault with a BA dread. He kept swinging the STR 7 attacks at the dread, scratching it once before the dread killed the talos.

I kept shaking my head, as this would have been a perfect opportunity to smash. It would have given a 8/9 chance of penetrating with an AP2 attack.

 labmouse42 wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Smash attacks are a joke now. One str10? As if. If you think one str10 attack that has to roll to hit and trades all other attacks away is even worth thinking about, I can't help you. Smash will almost never be used and will be useless 99% of the time it is used. Be realistic.

If you're relying on a smash attack, you're gonna have a bad time.

A few weeks ago, I was at a local GW store. A guy's talos was in assault with a BA dread. He kept swinging the STR 7 attacks at the dread, scratching it once before the dread killed the talos.

I kept shaking my head, as this would have been a perfect opportunity to smash. It would have given a 8/9 chance of penetrating with an AP2 attack.

Though this may be true, imagine if Smashing was your main way of dealing with vehicles outside of the Haywire Template that only 3 units can take (2 of which are rather slow and would require a Tyrannocyte to get there).

Yeah, thankfully Flyrants are mobile enough for rrsr armour with brainleech worms and Carnifexes are naturally S9 with d3 how.

As for Talos and BA, well Talos has a decent chance of doing more damage with its regular attacks, unless it was a furioso in which case that was just bad luck

A wild Imperial/wraithknight appears... nid army does what now?

 Torus wrote:
A wild Imperial/wraithknight appears... nid army does what now?

The Tyranids attempt to flee!....

You fail to get away!

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Torus wrote:
A wild Imperial/wraithknight appears... nid army does what now?

The Tyranids attempt to flee!....

You fail to get away!

Wraithnight uses stomp... It's super effective

 labmouse42 wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Smash attacks are a joke now. One str10? As if. If you think one str10 attack that has to roll to hit and trades all other attacks away is even worth thinking about, I can't help you. Smash will almost never be used and will be useless 99% of the time it is used. Be realistic.

If you're relying on a smash attack, you're gonna have a bad time.

A few weeks ago, I was at a local GW store. A guy's talos was in assault with a BA dread. He kept swinging the STR 7 attacks at the dread, scratching it once before the dread killed the talos.

I kept shaking my head, as this would have been a perfect opportunity to smash. It would have given a 8/9 chance of penetrating with an AP2 attack.

In that exact instance, I probably would have smashed. But I also would have simply attempted to keep that particular Mc out of combat with something it needs to smash to damage anyways.

I know it's not completely useless, in the exact situation you're mentioning it's pretty much all you have. My point was, that doesn't make it a sound tactic or really anything to add to the list of options for dealing with armour.

Back when you got more attacks, smash was quite useful. I'm just saying that for me, it isn't a consideration for me when determining their power level anymore. I play daemons and the times I've used smash since 7th dropped I can count on one hand. Even if I attempted to use it as a method of destroying tanks my codex would still have slight trouble with armour, and i can field just about as many mc's as nids.

 Torus wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Torus wrote:
A wild Imperial/wraithknight appears... nid army does what now?

The Tyranids attempt to flee!....

You fail to get away!

Wraithnight uses stomp... It's super effective

It's a one-hit K.O!

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Torus wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Torus wrote:
A wild Imperial/wraithknight appears... nid army does what now?

The Tyranids attempt to flee!....

You fail to get away!

Wraithnight uses stomp... It's super effective

It's a one-hit K.O!

Nid Player is out of usable models...

Nid Player scurried to a GW center, dumping his army on Ebay, he buys anything other than Nids...

Nid player instead picks up a new Necron army!

 Torus wrote:
A wild Imperial/wraithknight appears... nid army does what now?

Dependent on how the wraith knight is kitted wouldn't the nids player just use their 5 flyrants to kill the rest of the army. Then use lictor shame to camp objectives, or use mawloc to do chip damage to knight or kill other things.

oz of the north wrote:

 Torus wrote:
A wild Imperial/wraithknight appears... nid army does what now?

Dependent on how the wraith knight is kitted wouldn't the nids player just use their 5 flyrants to kill the rest of the army. Then use lictor shame to camp objectives, or use mawloc to do chip damage to knight or kill other things.

If we're talking super competitive Flyrant lists, yes, they're only option is to ignore them.

If we're talking a decent casual list, they're boned.

Who would bring a WK to a friendly game, or superheavy without asking opponent. Also maybe bring a barded heirodule with its mass of str 10 shots ap 3 into the WK. Put toe in ruins, be near venomthrope.

oz of the north wrote:
Who would bring a WK to a friendly game, or superheavy without asking opponent. Also maybe bring a barded heirodule with its mass of str 10 shots ap 3 into the WK. Put toe in ruins, be near venomthrope.

A. A lot of people do that in this game, as it's perfectly legal via the rules. B. A Heirodule is an expensive Forgeworld model, which just happens to also be expensive rules wise, and would do next to nothing to a Wraithknight, and would probably be D-ed off the table.

 Torus wrote:
A wild Imperial/wraithknight appears... nid army does what now?

Use Master Ball!

*throws bowling ball at the table*

Read the old codex.
Modern Tyranids have lost a lot, including their defining trait: Adaptability.

 EnTyme wrote:

 Torus wrote:
A wild Imperial/wraithknight appears... nid army does what now?

Use Master Ball!

*throws bowling ball at the table*

You win

 krodarklorr wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
Who would bring a WK to a friendly game, or superheavy without asking opponent. Also maybe bring a barded heirodule with its mass of str 10 shots ap 3 into the WK. Put toe in ruins, be near venomthrope.

A. A lot of people do that in this game, as it's perfectly legal via the rules. B. A Heirodule is an expensive Forgeworld model, which just happens to also be expensive rules wise, and would do next to nothing to a Wraithknight, and would probably be D-ed off the table.

I never said it was not legal to do that, I was saying if you are playing a friendly game, bringing a GC is not entirely common. Then again I am only speaking for my meta, others may be different. Also a barbed heirodule is around same price as other GC's in the game. Also with a 2+ cover can easily deflect a lot of shots unless 6 to wound, and massed str 10 ap 3 will do work on a WK.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
You're pretty unfriendly, I must say.

No one here is trying to do anything other than help you.

Like I said earlier, you don't want to listen, that is not our fault. I'm not the only person here who is mentioning to take units that can actually hurt flyers.

Not dealing with stupid logic isn't being unfriendly.

oz of the north wrote:
Who would bring a WK to a friendly game, or superheavy without asking opponent. Also maybe bring a barded heirodule with its mass of str 10 shots ap 3 into the WK. Put toe in ruins, be near venomthrope.

Well apparently a lot of other Eldar players do but think about a semi competitive game.

You are not going to go HAM with 5 flyrants but you'd bring a strong list wouldn't you

oz of the north wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
Who would bring a WK to a friendly game, or superheavy without asking opponent. Also maybe bring a barded heirodule with its mass of str 10 shots ap 3 into the WK. Put toe in ruins, be near venomthrope.

A. A lot of people do that in this game, as it's perfectly legal via the rules. B. A Heirodule is an expensive Forgeworld model, which just happens to also be expensive rules wise, and would do next to nothing to a Wraithknight, and would probably be D-ed off the table.

I never said it was not legal to do that, I was saying if you are playing a friendly game, bringing a GC is not entirely common. Then again I am only speaking for my meta, others may be different. Also a barbed heirodule is around same price as other GC's in the game. Also with a 2+ cover can easily deflect a lot of shots unless 6 to wound, and massed str 10 ap 3 will do work on a WK.

A Heirodule is, what, 550 points? Correct me if I'm wrong. But it's BS3, and gets 6 S10 shots. So, 3 hits, good chance at 3 wounds, and the WK gets a cover save/invuln then a FNP. It's not going to "do work" on a Wraithknight.

 krodarklorr wrote:

oz of the north wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
Who would bring a WK to a friendly game, or superheavy without asking opponent. Also maybe bring a barded heirodule with its mass of str 10 shots ap 3 into the WK. Put toe in ruins, be near venomthrope.

A. A lot of people do that in this game, as it's perfectly legal via the rules. B. A Heirodule is an expensive Forgeworld model, which just happens to also be expensive rules wise, and would do next to nothing to a Wraithknight, and would probably be D-ed off the table.

I never said it was not legal to do that, I was saying if you are playing a friendly game, bringing a GC is not entirely common. Then again I am only speaking for my meta, others may be different. Also a barbed heirodule is around same price as other GC's in the game. Also with a 2+ cover can easily deflect a lot of shots unless 6 to wound, and massed str 10 ap 3 will do work on a WK.

A Heirodule is, what, 550 points? Correct me if I'm wrong. But it's BS3, and gets 6 S10 shots. So, 3 hits, good chance at 3 wounds, and the WK gets a cover save/invuln then a FNP. It's not going to "do work" on a Wraithknight.

It gets 12 str 10 shots, so could do some damage to a wk.

oz of the north wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

oz of the north wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
Who would bring a WK to a friendly game, or superheavy without asking opponent. Also maybe bring a barded heirodule with its mass of str 10 shots ap 3 into the WK. Put toe in ruins, be near venomthrope.

A. A lot of people do that in this game, as it's perfectly legal via the rules. B. A Heirodule is an expensive Forgeworld model, which just happens to also be expensive rules wise, and would do next to nothing to a Wraithknight, and would probably be D-ed off the table.

I never said it was not legal to do that, I was saying if you are playing a friendly game, bringing a GC is not entirely common. Then again I am only speaking for my meta, others may be different. Also a barbed heirodule is around same price as other GC's in the game. Also with a 2+ cover can easily deflect a lot of shots unless 6 to wound, and massed str 10 ap 3 will do work on a WK.

A Heirodule is, what, 550 points? Correct me if I'm wrong. But it's BS3, and gets 6 S10 shots. So, 3 hits, good chance at 3 wounds, and the WK gets a cover save/invuln then a FNP. It's not going to "do work" on a Wraithknight.

It gets 12 str 10 shots, so could do some damage to a wk.

Then what am I thinking of....nevermind. Still, for it's points cost, it would, at best, do a mediocre amount of damage. The Wraithknight can still get cover and will have FNP against it. While almost for the same cost, they could bring 2 Wraithknights with D-weapons (either ranged or melee).

 master of ordinance wrote:
Read the old codex.
Modern Tyranids have lost a lot, including their defining trait: Adaptability.

Not completely true, each Tyranid codex is in general stronger than it's predecesor. The problem is that the power creep in the other factions has been insane.

 Tyran wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Read the old codex.
Modern Tyranids have lost a lot, including their defining trait: Adaptability.

Not completely true, each Tyranid codex is in general stronger than it's predecesor. The problem is that the power creep in the other factions has been insane.

I disagree. The 6th edition codex nerfed the Swarmlord extremely hard. They also removed any option as to which Psychic power tree you could take. And they made Synapse actually detrimental to the army. Did I mention they also removed the Doom of Malantai? They also initially removed their drop pods (though they added them back, thank god).

Maybe. I just played a game against a Skyblight Swarm, and a CAD with two Flyrants, a Mucalid, Zoanthropes (including Neurothrope), Venomhropes, and an extra Crone. I managed to win, but that's because I brought a Tervigon, two Sporocysts, two DS Rippers, Zoanthropes, Venomthrope, Trygon, Manufactorum Genestealers, and an Endless Swarm. All told I got 100+ 'free' models from Without Number, Spore Node, and Spawn, while only taking something like 70 casualties in return. We were playing ITC Mission 4, or the Scouring. I got the Scouring, he won Maelstrom, and I got Linebreaker (go Trygon hole) and Big Game Hunter.

I've had similar experiences against Dark Eldar, and Space Marine Gladius armies, that they simply can't kill enough of me to win. It really takes some of the stress off a game. I wish Without Number was a basic army-wide special rule for Tyranids.

Nomeny wrote:
I wish Without Number was a basic army-wide special rule for Tyranids.

Many people, including myself, would be quickly investing into more Gaunts.

Actually, imagine if a similar rule is what the Tyranid Invasion Force Detachment bonus is. That would be sick.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Read the old codex.
Modern Tyranids have lost a lot, including their defining trait: Adaptability.

Not completely true, each Tyranid codex is in general stronger than it's predecesor. The problem is that the power creep in the other factions has been insane.

I disagree. The 6th edition codex nerfed the Swarmlord extremely hard. They also removed any option as to which Psychic power tree you could take. And they made Synapse actually detrimental to the army. Did I mention they also removed the Doom of Malantai? They also initially removed their drop pods (though they added them back, thank god).

That's why I said in general. The Flyrant was buffed, almost all our monster creatures were buffed and gaunts got cheaper. When comparing both codices in the competitive scene, the 6th edition did better (some tournaments allowed Tyranid players to chose which Codex they wanted to use.)

 Tyran wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Read the old codex.
Modern Tyranids have lost a lot, including their defining trait: Adaptability.

Not completely true, each Tyranid codex is in general stronger than it's predecesor. The problem is that the power creep in the other factions has been insane.

I disagree. The 6th edition codex nerfed the Swarmlord extremely hard. They also removed any option as to which Psychic power tree you could take. And they made Synapse actually detrimental to the army. Did I mention they also removed the Doom of Malantai? They also initially removed their drop pods (though they added them back, thank god).

That's why I said in general. The Flyrant was buffed, almost all our monster creatures were buffed and gaunts got cheaper. When comparing both codices in the competitive scene, the 6th edition did better (some tournaments allowed Tyranid players to chose which Codex they wanted to use.)

Even if gaunts got cheaper and our MCs were buffed, the overall army functionality was nerfed. Synapse use to not be a big deal. Now it is. You also had access to better powers, so Psychic goodness could really help out. Just because in the competitive scene the "Codex: Flyrant" lists faired better doesn't mean the whole codex as a whole was better.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Read the old codex.
Modern Tyranids have lost a lot, including their defining trait: Adaptability.

Not completely true, each Tyranid codex is in general stronger than it's predecesor. The problem is that the power creep in the other factions has been insane.

I disagree. The 6th edition codex nerfed the Swarmlord extremely hard. They also removed any option as to which Psychic power tree you could take. And they made Synapse actually detrimental to the army. Did I mention they also removed the Doom of Malantai? They also initially removed their drop pods (though they added them back, thank god).

That's why I said in general. The Flyrant was buffed, almost all our monster creatures were buffed and gaunts got cheaper. When comparing both codices in the competitive scene, the 6th edition did better (some tournaments allowed Tyranid players to chose which Codex they wanted to use.)

Even if gaunts got cheaper and our MCs were buffed, the overall army functionality was nerfed. Synapse use to not be a big of a deal. Now it is. You also had access to better powers, so Psychic goodness could really help out. Just because in the competitive scene the "Codex: Flyrant" lists faired better doesn't mean the whole codex as a whole was better.

Synapse always was a big deal, with most of our creatures lacking fearless by themselves and having gakky LD. The problem is that 6th edition made it even more punishing.

Also overall army functionality? 5th edition was Codex: Tervigon, and it had even shittier powers than current codex.

 Tyran wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Read the old codex.
Modern Tyranids have lost a lot, including their defining trait: Adaptability.

Not completely true, each Tyranid codex is in general stronger than it's predecesor. The problem is that the power creep in the other factions has been insane.

I disagree. The 6th edition codex nerfed the Swarmlord extremely hard. They also removed any option as to which Psychic power tree you could take. And they made Synapse actually detrimental to the army. Did I mention they also removed the Doom of Malantai? They also initially removed their drop pods (though they added them back, thank god).

That's why I said in general. The Flyrant was buffed, almost all our monster creatures were buffed and gaunts got cheaper. When comparing both codices in the competitive scene, the 6th edition did better (some tournaments allowed Tyranid players to chose which Codex they wanted to use.)

Even if gaunts got cheaper and our MCs were buffed, the overall army functionality was nerfed. Synapse use to not be a big of a deal. Now it is. You also had access to better powers, so Psychic goodness could really help out. Just because in the competitive scene the "Codex: Flyrant" lists faired better doesn't mean the whole codex as a whole was better.

Synapse always was a big deal, with most of our creatures lacking fearless by themselves and having gakky LD. The problem is that 6th edition made it even more punishing.

Also overall army functionality? 5th edition was Codex: Tervigon, and it had even shittier powers than current codex.

Biomancy, though. That was kind of a big deal.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Read the old codex.
Modern Tyranids have lost a lot, including their defining trait: Adaptability.

Not completely true, each Tyranid codex is in general stronger than it's predecesor. The problem is that the power creep in the other factions has been insane.

I disagree. The 6th edition codex nerfed the Swarmlord extremely hard. They also removed any option as to which Psychic power tree you could take. And they made Synapse actually detrimental to the army. Did I mention they also removed the Doom of Malantai? They also initially removed their drop pods (though they added them back, thank god).

That's why I said in general. The Flyrant was buffed, almost all our monster creatures were buffed and gaunts got cheaper. When comparing both codices in the competitive scene, the 6th edition did better (some tournaments allowed Tyranid players to chose which Codex they wanted to use.)

Even if gaunts got cheaper and our MCs were buffed, the overall army functionality was nerfed. Synapse use to not be a big of a deal. Now it is. You also had access to better powers, so Psychic goodness could really help out. Just because in the competitive scene the "Codex: Flyrant" lists faired better doesn't mean the whole codex as a whole was better.

Synapse always was a big deal, with most of our creatures lacking fearless by themselves and having gakky LD. The problem is that 6th edition made it even more punishing.

Also overall army functionality? 5th edition was Codex: Tervigon, and it had even shittier powers than current codex.

Biomancy, though. That was kind of a big deal.

To put on what, a Flyrant? the problem we have isn't gakky powers, but gakky casters. Biomancy was used to buff Flyrants, and while 6th ed codex took away biomancy, it buffed Flyrants even more.

I'm not saying that the current codex is good, it isn't, it is crap. But there wasn't some lost golden days. 5th edition was as bad if not worse.

 Tyran wrote:

I'm not saying that the current codex is good, it isn't, it is crap. But there wasn't some lost golden days. 5th edition was as bad if not worse.

Well everyone I talk to said that the 5th edition book had quite a few cheesy builds, most notably the Tervigon spam and T9 Swarmlords.

I'm actually in the boat where I think it makes sense Tyranids would only roll on their own table.

The problem comes from their table sucking some massive donkey balls. It needs fixing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm actually in the boat where I think it makes sense Tyranids would only roll on their own table.

The problem comes from their table sucking some massive donkey balls. It needs fixing.

Well, that, and the fact that Shadow in the Warp doesn't do anything, and they have nothing to help with casting powers. Also, yes, they are technically "psykers", but the work different from the Warp, but have nothing to show for it. I'm going off on a tangent here, but you get my gist.

All in all, I'm just disappointed with Tyranids "psychically".

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
You're pretty unfriendly, I must say.

No one here is trying to do anything other than help you.

Like I said earlier, you don't want to listen, that is not our fault. I'm not the only person here who is mentioning to take units that can actually hurt flyers.

Not dealing with stupid logic isn't being unfriendly.

What logic of mine was stupid...

When I posted what you quoted, it was meant for the OP.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm actually in the boat where I think it makes sense Tyranids would only roll on their own table.

The problem comes from their table sucking some massive donkey balls. It needs fixing.

Well, that, and the fact that Shadow in the Warp doesn't do anything, and they have nothing to help with casting powers. Also, yes, they are technically "psykers", but the work different from the Warp, but have nothing to show for it. I'm going off on a tangent here, but you get my gist.

All in all, I'm just disappointed with Tyranids "psychically".

I hate that people keep saying Shadow of the Warp doesn't do anything. Its a -4LD debuff to psykers. Thats awesome. I can't tell you how many times i've seen a psychic MC blow up to psychic scream because they Shadow of the warp basically did +4 wounds to them or how crappy IG units failed morale because their SM leader was LD6

 CrownAxe wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm actually in the boat where I think it makes sense Tyranids would only roll on their own table.

The problem comes from their table sucking some massive donkey balls. It needs fixing.

Well, that, and the fact that Shadow in the Warp doesn't do anything, and they have nothing to help with casting powers. Also, yes, they are technically "psykers", but the work different from the Warp, but have nothing to show for it. I'm going off on a tangent here, but you get my gist.

All in all, I'm just disappointed with Tyranids "psychically".

I hate that people keep saying Shadow of the Warp doesn't do anything. Its a -4LD debuff to psykers. Thats awesome. I can't tell you how many times i've seen a psychic MC blow up to psychic scream because they Shadow of the warp basically did +4 wounds to them or how crappy IG units failed morale because their SM leader was LD6

-3*

I'm not saying it's completely useless, but it hasn't made a difference in any game at all since 7th edition.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Traditio wrote:
That would be like saying that the Elder codex would be underpowered if they only had access to wraithknights and scatter bikes.

That's a rather poor comparison. The thing about the Eldar codex is that most of the units there are at least decent.
If you picked a unit, such as dark reapers, out of the codex and put them into another codex they would be in the list of 'autotake'.
Sure, there are a few duds like storm guardians, but most of the units are good. Hell, I've even made good use from shining spears in the codex.

If a codex only has 2-3 good units, then it's options are much more limited.

You really don't get counter-factuals, huh?

Traditio wrote:
I was playing a game against the Tyrranids yesterday, and here's what I experienced:

Over 90 models on the table.
Flying monstrous creatures that could fire a dozen S6 BS 4 shots every turn...
...which could also generate warp charges and use psyker abilities like...psychic scream...
...which combined with the fact that it was used by a flyer, pretty much meant that it could go right into the middle of my units and mess things up.

So.

Why are the Tyrranids underpowered again?

Now deploy a Land Raider against that. Or an Imperial Knight. Or heck, something with AV 13.

And watch the entire army do....nothing.

Tyranids are generally underpowered because....

The Codex has so much chaff. Elites is horrendously crowded and half of it is laughably bad. Troops are trash tier. Fast Attack is a joke. Heavy support is as crowded as Elites. When all Tyranid armies start looking the same it is a sign that their options are limited and poor. A good codex will generate a number of reliable builds. A bad codex generates one or two.

Welcome to the Super Heavy and Gargantuan Meta - Tyranids are an army that has traditionally struggled against armour spam and this was made worse with changes in 6th and 7th. Smash got nerfed. Strength D obliterates Monstrous Creatures which is a straight up nerf to Carnifexes. An abundance of GCs makes Poisoned attacks next to worthless (only affected on a 6+) so bye bye Toxicrene. Warp Charge generation and Deny the Witch COMBINED with having to still roll to hit, then roll to penetrate and then you still get saves means that Zoanthropes have to jump through four hoops to do their job.

Let me clarify for you.

Smash is Terrible. Smash is Terrible. Smash is Terrible. SMASH IS TERRIBLE.

Before Smash was fairly reliable - sacrifice half your attacks, get reliable S10 + 2D6 armour penetration. In an edition without Strength D. This meant your Tyrants and Trygons and even Carnifexes and Harpies and the like could actually take out armour. Admittedly you still had to run or fly at the enemy to do so and thus still had the gauntlet of fire but it yielded results.

NOW Smash...is a single attack. That you still have to roll to hit with. That lets you reroll your armour penetration. Oh boy. We went from having an average of 3 attacks that would likely score 2 AV 17 hits to a single attack that averages AV 14. OH BOY. We went from reliably penetrating and damaging any vehicle in the game to single glancing hits on the things we need to take down the most.

What's more a lot of the things we need to take down...are toting Strength D weapons...that strike at initiative. With multiple attacks. And if that wasn't enough...they also have a potential Strength D stomp. Oh, did I mention their WS and initiative is better than a Carnifex?

Did I also mention that D ignores FNP - which is a major workhorse of the Tyranid army to keep the big creatures alive? Did I mention it autowounds? Did I mention that the average SD hit does D3 wounds to a creature with 4 wounds average?

Can I also talk about the fact that we are paying an exorbitant amount of points for our MCs because of things like Fear being tacked on?

Do you know what Fear does? It reduces a unit's WS to 1. That's it. It doesn't autobreak them. It doesn't do anything else. It doesn't affect anything that is Fearless...or that has ATSKNF. Oh, and they get to take a Leadership test first. So anything it could affect is probably toting Ld 10 from Mob Rule, Officers, Commisars...or is already WS trash in the first place. OH BOY. I made those WS 2 Tau into WS 1 Tau! OH BOY!

Have I mentioned Overwatch exists? As does cover? And Tyranids have virtually no way of getting assault grenades without paying a premium.

You ever wonder why no one uses Genestealers? Because you pay more points than a Marine for something that has to assault into cover and has a 5+ save...without assault grenades.

I think the codex is weak in general because whoever wrote seemed unispired and going through the motions. IMO a lot of the first 7th edition codices also fall into this category. It's sad because in ways even the 5th edition codex is better in terms of having had more playable units. This codex is Codex Flyrant. I hope that when GW gets around to reboot they invest the time, effort and resources to do it right.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I think the codex is weak in general because whoever wrote seemed unispired and going through the motions. IMO a lot of the first 7th edition codices also fall into this category. It's sad because in ways even the 5th edition codex is better in terms of having had more playable units. This codex is Codex Flyrant. I hope that when GW gets around to reboot they invest the time, effort and resources to do it right.

Agreed. I would take the first of the 'Nid "Cruddexes" over the 7th. But I lump the 6th and 7th into the same level of "the suck".


I had a friend who was a hardcore 'Nid player. He slogged it out through the 5th edition. But the 6th was the straw that broke the Carnifex's back. And having looked over the 7th, he said "no thanks". I haven't been able to get him into a friendly game since.

The multi Flyrant list with spores and mucolids is one of those armies no one wanted to play against until the recent release of the new Tau which can blast it off the table in three to four turns.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I think the codex is weak in general because whoever wrote seemed unispired and going through the motions. IMO a lot of the first 7th edition codices also fall into this category. It's sad because in ways even the 5th edition codex is better in terms of having had more playable units. This codex is Codex Flyrant. I hope that when GW gets around to reboot they invest the time, effort and resources to do it right.

Agreed. I would take the first of the 'Nid "Cruddexes" over the 7th. But I lump the 6th and 7th into the same level of "the suck".


I had a friend who was a hardcore 'Nid player. He slogged it out through the 5th edition. But the 6th was the straw that broke the Carnifex's back. And having looked over the 7th, he said "no thanks". I haven't been able to get him into a friendly game since.

There is no 7th edition Tyranid Codex.

 Imateria wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I think the codex is weak in general because whoever wrote seemed unispired and going through the motions. IMO a lot of the first 7th edition codices also fall into this category. It's sad because in ways even the 5th edition codex is better in terms of having had more playable units. This codex is Codex Flyrant. I hope that when GW gets around to reboot they invest the time, effort and resources to do it right.

Agreed. I would take the first of the 'Nid "Cruddexes" over the 7th. But I lump the 6th and 7th into the same level of "the suck".


I had a friend who was a hardcore 'Nid player. He slogged it out through the 5th edition. But the 6th was the straw that broke the Carnifex's back. And having looked over the 7th, he said "no thanks". I haven't been able to get him into a friendly game since.

There is no 7th edition Tyranid Codex.

And at the rate it's going, there might never be!

Traditio wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

Traditio wrote:
That would be like saying that the Elder codex would be underpowered if they only had access to wraithknights and scatter bikes.

That's a rather poor comparison. The thing about the Eldar codex is that most of the units there are at least decent.
If you picked a unit, such as dark reapers, out of the codex and put them into another codex they would be in the list of 'autotake'.
Sure, there are a few duds like storm guardians, but most of the units are good. Hell, I've even made good use from shining spears in the codex.

If a codex only has 2-3 good units, then it's options are much more limited.

You really don't get counter-factuals, huh?

You say this as if that accomplished anything but stating your very obvious opinion. Flyrant being (relatively) OP is situational on the opponent not bringing sufficient AA, in an edition where bringing AA is encouraged despite not being absolutely necessary. That is the only thing that you need to make Flyrants much less threatening ; include one or two sources of good AA. Nothing else. No board tactics needs to be implemented. You are quite literally whining about having to plan ahead your potential threats in a list building wargame. No amount of can truly express the failure of your understanding of this game.

I'd say that if you don't like that 40k has a fair amount of rock/paper/cissor to it, you should move on to another wargame, but in reality, having to plan ahead of potential threats is kinda essential to almost all wargames.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I think the codex is weak in general because whoever wrote seemed unispired and going through the motions. IMO a lot of the first 7th edition codices also fall into this category. It's sad because in ways even the 5th edition codex is better in terms of having had more playable units. This codex is Codex Flyrant. I hope that when GW gets around to reboot they invest the time, effort and resources to do it right.

Agreed. I would take the first of the 'Nid "Cruddexes" over the 7th. But I lump the 6th and 7th into the same level of "the suck".


I had a friend who was a hardcore 'Nid player. He slogged it out through the 5th edition. But the 6th was the straw that broke the Carnifex's back. And having looked over the 7th, he said "no thanks". I haven't been able to get him into a friendly game since.

This Tyranid codex is the last book that I bought from GW. I felt completely robbed getting charged 50.00 for what was at least 80% copy/paste material from the book that I already had; not to mention how god awful the stuff that wasn't copy/paste was. Uninspired doesn't begin to say what this is. I gurantee Mr. Crud was a big part of this one as well

 Imateria wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I think the codex is weak in general because whoever wrote seemed unispired and going through the motions. IMO a lot of the first 7th edition codices also fall into this category. It's sad because in ways even the 5th edition codex is better in terms of having had more playable units. This codex is Codex Flyrant. I hope that when GW gets around to reboot they invest the time, effort and resources to do it right.

Agreed. I would take the first of the 'Nid "Cruddexes" over the 7th. But I lump the 6th and 7th into the same level of "the suck".


I had a friend who was a hardcore 'Nid player. He slogged it out through the 5th edition. But the 6th was the straw that broke the Carnifex's back. And having looked over the 7th, he said "no thanks". I haven't been able to get him into a friendly game since.

There is no 7th edition Tyranid Codex.

Apologies for the misunderstanding. Drinking Crown Royal and posting don't mix.


I actually meant what the 'Nids got during 40k's 7th Edition, with new models and White Dwarf updates to support the new models.


Some people liked it. Others (including my buddy) didn't like the way the Maleceptor has handled, and felt they didn't go far enough in undoing the damage inflicted on the poor 'Nids by "The Cruddace"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Battlesong wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I think the codex is weak in general because whoever wrote seemed unispired and going through the motions. IMO a lot of the first 7th edition codices also fall into this category. It's sad because in ways even the 5th edition codex is better in terms of having had more playable units. This codex is Codex Flyrant. I hope that when GW gets around to reboot they invest the time, effort and resources to do it right.

Agreed. I would take the first of the 'Nid "Cruddexes" over the 7th. But I lump the 6th and 7th into the same level of "the suck".


I had a friend who was a hardcore 'Nid player. He slogged it out through the 5th edition. But the 6th was the straw that broke the Carnifex's back. And having looked over the 7th, he said "no thanks". I haven't been able to get him into a friendly game since.

This Tyranid codex is the last book that I bought from GW. I felt completely robbed getting charged 50.00 for what was at least 80% copy/paste material from the book that I already had; not to mention how god awful the stuff that wasn't copy/paste was. Uninspired doesn't begin to say what this is. I gurantee Mr. Crud was a big part of this one as well

Agreed.

I do wonder if the "Nerfer in Chief" is still with GeeDubs, or did he move on like Mr. Spiritual Liege did?

1) Synapse HURTS: Gants and most heavy hitters must be in synapse or risk a 50/50 that they do almost nothing you want them to do
2) Over Costed!!!: Almost ALL MC in the Nids book is over 30% (some even 50%!) over costed. Look at the Carnifex, and Trygon for easy examples.
3) Powers: Can ONLY use the Nids powers: They arnt even that good :/
4) Saves: Mostly 5+ saves with very little any MC that has 2+, almost no other units get 3-4+ other than MC and a Warrior
5) Delivery: Very slow, no good way to get into CC other than Walking, or a OVER costed Drop pod that you cant assault out of
6) No Assault Nades, an dthe few that can get they are Over costed
7) Over costed Upgrades: Regen for 30pts, Assault Nades for 4-6pts, Poison 3pts on 5pt models etc....
8) Shooting: Over costed guns, most guns arnt even worth it, and the few that are good have almost no AP, the Large Damage ones also have low AP and over costed, Combine with BS3
9) No Sargent's: With no WAY to get a Sargent or ANY way to make units of Low Str no AP to gain a Weapon like, Power Weapons, Power Fist, Chains etc.. etc... Or to Help Synapse, Challenges and LD tests
10) Lack of Cheap IC's: IC helps alot with LD, wargear and Melee (Especially a Melee style army, Look at Chaos Khorne book for an example)
11) Cant handle GMC or Super Heavys at all.....
12) Cover is a joke now, Almost all Codex's anymore have ways around it, Venom are good, but to easy to be killed, a few good shots, a flamer, or Ignore cover and your cover bubble is dead.
13) Repetitive: VERY VERY VERY Repetitve MC's, most are S6/T6/W4 or W6 and they all mostly do that same thing and cost about the same, 1 might have more attacks + poison where the Other is Level 2 with crappy Powers, or the other gets a Tunnel that DOESNT HELP AT ALL.
14) Abilitys: Trygon Tunnel, This is an amazing Idea with 2 MAJOR problems, The Trygon has to come in 1st, then next turns others can use the tunnel, BUT you cant assault out of it, so it is literally turn 4 before THAT unit can even do anything good (unless its a shooting unit, then it can do something turn 3 IF!!!!! the Trygon comes in turn 2)..... This makes it worst if they trygon comes in turn 3-4 but the other units come in turn 2...... what a waste.
15) Almost 0 invuls in the army, and No way to get Invuls via Wargear
16) Pointless Upgrades of some of the units making them extremely over costed (Old 1 eye, Swarm Lord, Red Terror etc...)
17) Warrior Prime is 50pts + Over costed due to old 5th ed :/
18) Trygon Prime for 250pts isnt a GMC so its completely pointless
19) No Force or D weapons at all
20) The Few GMC are WAY over priced... extremely over priced.....


Tyranid book is crap compare to all the other books...........

Im over 15k Pts with Tyranids now, I have 2 friends both Highly competitive players (one owns a Warhammer store and runs leagues all the time) both have as much Nids as me... we all agree than they are the worst book and not even fun to play in this Meta.

You don't think nids can beat a typical ba list?

Martel732 wrote:
You don't think nids can beat a typical ba list?

If you bring the best BA list then no it cant.

I have a friend that does that 3 Storm Raven Formation, the only nid list that can beat it at all is the 5 Flyrant list, if Im not playing that list I have 0 chances to win, even with 5 Flyrants its still a close game.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You don't think nids can beat a typical ba list?

If you bring the best BA list then no it cant.

I have a friend that does that 3 Storm Raven Formation, the only nid list that can beat it at all is the 5 Flyrant list, if Im not playing that list I have 0 chances to win, even with 5 Flyrants its still a close game.

Pretty much this. The Casual Nid player is in a rough spot right now, and most of them don't feel like buying 4 more Hive Tyrant kits just to play their army.

Tyranids are not overpowered because the only good unit is the Flyrant and even that is only a "above average" unit, not really overpowered IMO.. It's only overpowered if your opponent decided to have the tactic of ignoring flyers and hoping you weren't bringing enough flyers to do anything significant. Even if you just kill all the ground based Synapse it can make life hard for a Flyrant spam player because you don't really want the thing holding the rest of your army together moving quickly across the board at 12-24" a turn not being able to make more than one 90 degree turn.

As a casual Tyranid player, you also feel like a right royal doofus if you rock up to a game with more than 1 Flyrant unless it's a large game.

Nids may not be in the top tier, but they are far from being the worst codex in the game. There are quite a few other armies that will get thoroughly trounced by a Nids list.

Which is just sad.

oz of the north wrote:
Nids may not be in the top tier, but they are far from being the worst codex in the game. There are quite a few other armies that will get thoroughly trounced by a Nids list.

By "quite a few", you actually mean "orks", right?
There's really not that much else that can get really "trounced" by Nids barring a huge failure in strategy or planning.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
Nids may not be in the top tier, but they are far from being the worst codex in the game. There are quite a few other armies that will get thoroughly trounced by a Nids list.

By "quite a few", you actually mean "orks", right?
There's really not that much else that can get really "trounced" by Nids barring a huge failure in strategy or planning.

Well the new Orcs updates are amazing for them. I mean turn 1 charges, Pain Boy + Boys get 1 free melee attack in the movement phase + additional attacks in Assault phases and Ghaz can be played now...

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
Nids may not be in the top tier, but they are far from being the worst codex in the game. There are quite a few other armies that will get thoroughly trounced by a Nids list.

By "quite a few", you actually mean "orks", right?
There's really not that much else that can get really "trounced" by Nids barring a huge failure in strategy or planning.

Chaos Space Marines.

 Tyran wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
Nids may not be in the top tier, but they are far from being the worst codex in the game. There are quite a few other armies that will get thoroughly trounced by a Nids list.

By "quite a few", you actually mean "orks", right?
There's really not that much else that can get really "trounced" by Nids barring a huge failure in strategy or planning.

Chaos Space Marines.

Trounced, really? I get that CSM aren't in a healthy position, and are one of the few codex worst off than Tyranids, but I didn't think they had that huge of a difference in power level. Than again, haven't played a CSM player in years. Should try again.

Still, beside Chaos and Orks, what else is so clearly weaker than Tyranids?

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
Nids may not be in the top tier, but they are far from being the worst codex in the game. There are quite a few other armies that will get thoroughly trounced by a Nids list.

By "quite a few", you actually mean "orks", right?
There's really not that much else that can get really "trounced" by Nids barring a huge failure in strategy or planning.

Chaos Space Marines.

Trounced, really? I get that CSM aren't in a healthy position, and are one of the few codex worst off than Tyranids, but I didn't think they had that huge of a difference in power level. Than again, haven't played a CSM player in years. Should try again.

Still, beside Chaos and Orks, what else is so clearly weaker than Tyranids?

Even Nurgle gets smashed by Flyrants.
There is nothing in this game as inept and useless as running pure Codex: Chaos Marines, except maybe an entire army of Grots?!

About the only way Tyranids can actually get their army steamrolled by CSM's, is if you're dumb enough to go unbound and not include a single Synapse Creature just for lolz. And then take nothing but Pyrovores!

If where going all in on WAAC I'm going to give the node to CSM because of the allies system. It requires a narrow build and significant forgeworld/allies but Chaos does have more options than Nids.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
If where going all in on WAAC I'm going to give the node to CSM because of the allies system. It requires a narrow build and significant forgeworld/allies but Chaos does have more options than Nids.

True, with Forgeworld CSM's can trump 'Nids... But then, I did say "pure" codex Chaos Marines still get soundly hosed.

Tyranids at least can function somewhat, despite being entirely mono-build, from within just their own codex.
Chaos Marines cannot.

Tyranids don't actively become 'even worse' by including actual Tyranids within their lists.
Chaos Marines become actively worse by taking anything that's actually called a 'Chaos Space Marine'. Hence why the only CSM's you see nowadays are Cultists, Sorcerers, AoBF Jugger Lord, Helturkies, Spawn and the occasional Oblit, while the vast majority of the so-called "Chaos Space Marine army" is instead composed of Daemons and/or IA:13.

Khornekin however will feature Bikers, but only as a tax to access 'super' Flesh Hounds...

Tervigon spam plus Flyrant spam with dakkafexes seems to do well in my LGS. Single zoanthropea spread out for a min of 7+ warp charges are a pain for Psykers, and then there's mawlocks.

Granted im playing Orks and Chaos respectively, but there's never enough Dakka available to take everyone down.

I would love to be able to spawn more troops every movement phase! Daemon summoning is a bad joke in comparison.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
Nids may not be in the top tier, but they are far from being the worst codex in the game. There are quite a few other armies that will get thoroughly trounced by a Nids list.

By "quite a few", you actually mean "orks", right?
There's really not that much else that can get really "trounced" by Nids barring a huge failure in strategy or planning.

Orks yes, CSM, dark eldar, harlies most likely not plated them a lot, imperial guard, MT, BA.

They have good builds and FMCs are still ridiculously good, especially when you can bring in 5 in a single game.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

I would love to be able to spawn more troops every movement phase!

I would love to be able to do that with my Nids, it would be awesome.

Daemon summoning is a bad joke in comparison.

I wish that were true.

Traditio wrote:


In actual practice, this makes Tyrranids overpowered, not underpowered. If the only lists that you see actually being played spam one really overpowered unit, that makes them overpowered. It's really that simple.

Good point. That must be why Tyranids everywhere are showing up in huge number in the largest and most competitive tournaments and stealing all those nerds' money/trophies.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I would love to be able to spawn more troops every movement phase! Daemon summoning is a bad joke in comparison.

What?

Seriously. What? Daemon summoning is not a bad joke by any means. For one you ignore the penalties of Maelific Daemonolgy through virtues of being a Daemon. Second, units you summon...can proceed to summon more units. I've yet to see a Tervigon spawn another Tervigon...but I have seen a cheap, bargain Herald spawn a Greater Daemon.

Also, Tervigons are liable to losing their ability to spawn within two turns, whereas Daemon summoning is restricted only by whether the units die or not. Besides, Tervigons spawn lowly Termagants. Daemon summoning brings forth Greater Daemons, Flesh Hounds, Pink Horrors and so on. Tervigons are still good on their own merits but uncomped Daemon summoning is on a different level.

Caederes wrote:
Also, Tervigons are liable to losing their ability to spawn within two turns, whereas Daemon summoning is restricted only by whether the units die or not. Besides, Tervigons spawn lowly Termagants. Daemon summoning brings forth Greater Daemons, Flesh Hounds, Pink Horrors and so on. Tervigons are still good on their own merits but uncomped Daemon summoning is on a different level.

Two Turns? Lucky, mine usually stop turn 1.

Daemon summoning takes a much bigger commitment to work than just rolling 3 dice with a tervigon.

I mostly see the tervigon hunker down the backfield, spawning gaunts all game.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Daemon summoning takes a much bigger commitment to work than just rolling 3 dice with a tervigon.

I mostly see the tervigon hunker down the backfield, spawning gaunts all game.

You have to be extremely lucky to spawn them all game.

A Tervigon's 'summoning' abilities are 100% safe, with the only drawback being that eventually, mom will run out of kids to poop out at some point.
A Daemon's 'summoning' abilities are incredibly strong, but require a large investment of WC's, and can potentially (and literally!) explode in your face.

What makes Daemon summoning so much better however, is that we can access every possible unit option, with the exception of; Daemon Princes, Furies, Soul Grinders & Khannons.

If Tervigons or indeed, other large Tyranids could create stronger beasts such as Genesneakers, Gargoyles, Raveners, etc... at will, and/or Hive Tyrants could explode into a brand new Hive Tyrant, then 'Bug Summoning' would be amazing!

Dont forget!!!!!

There is 1 HUGE thing about Tervigons EVERYONE is forgetting.

If it dies so does ALOT of you gants. The more will die the more units are within range.

Everytime I played a Tervigon the other play tried to kill it after spawning a unit of gants... and it was easy....... very easy for them to kill it (Grav, Wyverns, flamers, Scatter Lasers etc...)

Summoning at least if your Psykers die it doesnt kill of the spawned units :/

Experiment 626 wrote:
A Tervigon's 'summoning' abilities are 100% safe, with the only drawback being that eventually, mom will run out of kids to poop out at some point.

Negative.

First, as has already been pointed out - when a Tervigon dies it takes a huge chunk of gaunts within range with it. As it's a synapse creature, there's likely to be gaunts within range.

Secondly, it either eats up HQ slots (and compared to the Flyrant the Tervigon is a giant pile of gak) or forces a mandatory 30 man gauntsink per Troop Tervigon.

Meanwhile Daemons can summon from pretty much any Force Org slot that can generate Warp Charge dice leaving you with a lot of flexibility in how to build your Daemon army still. Considering how monobuild Tyranids generally are...eating up HQ slots or forcing 30 man gaunt broods in Troops are both very, very bad. It's not as though Tyranids actually had an abundance of good units.

Furthermore, you have to understand...from it's last incarnation Tervigons have gotten far worse.

The psychic power changes mean they have to go through the whole randomly rolling system to apply buffs - and thus risk Perils as well.

They lost their ability to spread the Toxic Sac and Adrenal Gland upgrades to nearby gaunts.

AND they went up in points. They got universally worse with 6th ed onwards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also folks, one other thing to remember.

Tyranids also don't have an abundance of ranged AP 2 or AP 3. Daemons do.

Tyranids don't have access to I7+ MCs outside of Tyrants. Daemons do.

Tyranids don't have Belakor. Daemons do.

The summoning comparisons are almost asinine when you compare the rest.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
A Tervigon's 'summoning' abilities are 100% safe, with the only drawback being that eventually, mom will run out of kids to poop out at some point.

Negative.

First, as has already been pointed out - when a Tervigon dies it takes a huge chunk of gaunts within range with it. As it's a synapse creature, there's likely to be gaunts within range.

Secondly, it either eats up HQ slots (and compared to the Flyrant the Tervigon is a giant pile of gak) or forces a mandatory 30 man gauntsink per Troop Tervigon.

Meanwhile Daemons can summon from pretty much any Force Org slot that can generate Warp Charge dice leaving you with a lot of flexibility in how to build your Daemon army still. Considering how monobuild Tyranids generally are...eating up HQ slots or forcing 30 man gaunt broods in Troops are both very, very bad. It's not as though Tyranids actually had an abundance of good units.

Furthermore, you have to understand...from it's last incarnation Tervigons have gotten far worse.

The psychic power changes mean they have to go through the whole randomly rolling system to apply buffs - and thus risk Perils as well.

They lost their ability to spread the Toxic Sac and Adrenal Gland upgrades to nearby gaunts.

AND they went up in points. They got universally worse with 6th ed onwards.

I was speaking more of the just the 'summoning' act itself... A Tervigon has a 0% chance of harming itself to bring another unit onto the table. A Daemon can potentially kill itself outright, and even explode part of its unit, and still get exactly nothing for its troubles. (ie: roll double 6's, and then a bunch of 1-3's so that you fail your casting attempt.)

I fully understand & agree that Tervigon's are terrible summoners, and are overall awful in game terms!

But when it comes to just the act of creating more models, there's absolutely no risk in spawning those models, beyond rolling doubles and running out of bug sperm.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
A Tervigon's 'summoning' abilities are 100% safe, with the only drawback being that eventually, mom will run out of kids to poop out at some point.

Negative.

First, as has already been pointed out - when a Tervigon dies it takes a huge chunk of gaunts within range with it. As it's a synapse creature, there's likely to be gaunts within range.

Secondly, it either eats up HQ slots (and compared to the Flyrant the Tervigon is a giant pile of gak) or forces a mandatory 30 man gauntsink per Troop Tervigon.

Meanwhile Daemons can summon from pretty much any Force Org slot that can generate Warp Charge dice leaving you with a lot of flexibility in how to build your Daemon army still. Considering how monobuild Tyranids generally are...eating up HQ slots or forcing 30 man gaunt broods in Troops are both very, very bad. It's not as though Tyranids actually had an abundance of good units.

Furthermore, you have to understand...from it's last incarnation Tervigons have gotten far worse.

The psychic power changes mean they have to go through the whole randomly rolling system to apply buffs - and thus risk Perils as well.

They lost their ability to spread the Toxic Sac and Adrenal Gland upgrades to nearby gaunts.

AND they went up in points. They got universally worse with 6th ed onwards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also folks, one other thing to remember.

Tyranids also don't have an abundance of ranged AP 2 or AP 3. Daemons do.

Tyranids don't have access to I7+ MCs outside of Tyrants. Daemons do.

Tyranids don't have Belakor. Daemons do.

The summoning comparisons are almost asinine when you compare the rest.

Daemons generate warp charge via hq and 1 troops unit, same as nids and their hq slots are even more crowded than nids are.

Daemons don't actually have that much flexibility in how they build their lists, you're either running fateweaver plus screamerstar / Dronesbus with horrors for troops or it's flying circus (and even then that's not winning much anymore). The variety, such as it is, comes from exchanging Be'lakor or a D-thirster for elements of one of the stars.

If you don't think daemons (bar Be'lakor) have to roll randomly or deal with Perils then your sadly mistaken. While you can stop spawning, you also devote no resources to doing it beyond the points cost of the Tervigon and it can't be denied by the opponent.

Daemons don't have an abundance of ranged weapons at all, let alone ap2. A bloodthirsters whip, the upgrade for warpgaze on the Soul grinder and the d3 shots from the tzeentch chariot are the only things I can think of, and none of those are ever taken in competitive lists. The tzeentch chariot also has an alternative fire that's ap3 and the grinder has the phlegm Cannon, but that's it for ap3 and again, only the Cannon is seen in most lists, and even then, it's 50/50 between that or the flamer. A single unit of 3 exocrines has more Ranged punch than most Daemon armies, let alone ap2 shooting.

Daemons don't have access to 12 TL str 6 shots on a fmc either.

No-one cares about initiative since the 3 units that have I7+ don't have grenades so it rarely matters.

Don't get me wrong, Daemons are in a better spot than nids by a long way, but blatant sandbagging or untruths gets you nowhere. There is no risk to the Tervigon for spawning gaunts, it's low risk, low reward. There's a sizable investment in points and risk to daemonic summoning, it's high risk, high reward. Is the reward out of line with the risk? Maybe, but I don't recall anyone winning a big tournament with a summoning list. They might have used summoning, but as a bolster, not as their main shtick.

 Drasius wrote:

Daemons generate warp charge via hq and 1 troops unit, same as nids and their hq slots are even more crowded than nids are.

You also can generate in Heavy Support (Daemon Princes). We have an insanely crowded Elites and HQ as our options or Troops if we completely cripple our monobuild to bloat with yet more points. Have I mentioned as well that what you summon...ALSO generates warp charge dice? Your HQ seems crowded til you realise that you have the option of a 2-for-1 deal on Heralds.

For the record, Synapse =/= Warp Charge Dice. Let's banish that misconception now.

Daemons don't actually have that much flexibility in how they build their lists, you're either running fateweaver plus screamerstar / Dronesbus with horrors for troops or it's flying circus (and even then that's not winning much anymore). The variety, such as it is, comes from exchanging Be'lakor or a D-thirster for elements of one of the stars.

As opposed to the Tyranid Flyrants must carry all the things. Because literally, that is the Tyranid army list right there. You already have far better options than we do.

If you don't think daemons (bar Be'lakor) have to roll randomly or deal with Perils then your sadly mistaken. While you can stop spawning, you also devote no resources to doing it beyond the points cost of the Tervigon and it can't be denied by the opponent.

When your Perils blats a 1 wound Horror champion or a 100 point Herald I will feel terribly bad for you. Because, you see, you're basically paying 100 points a unit to gamble for further free, better units. I'm paying 200+ points to hope that I get more than 70 points of gaunts on a good day. No resources beyond the cost of a Tervigon? You're kidding me. For a Tyranid army, which already has to be incredibly point efficient to function - a Tervigons' points cost is well and truly horrendous. It's a bloat that is either punishing us by taking up a HQ slot or punishing us by forcing us to spend about 5 times what we normally would on troops in order to gamble for 70 points of extra gaunts. FANTASTIC. REAL GAME BREAKING MECHANIC RIGHT THERE.

Daemons don't have an abundance of ranged weapons at all, let alone ap2. A bloodthirsters whip, the upgrade for warpgaze on the Soul grinder and the d3 shots from the tzeentch chariot are the only things I can think of, and none of those are ever taken in competitive lists. The tzeentch chariot also has an alternative fire that's ap3 and the grinder has the phlegm Cannon, but that's it for ap3 and again, only the Cannon is seen in most lists, and even then, it's 50/50 between that or the flamer. A single unit of 3 exocrines has more Ranged punch than most Daemon armies, let alone ap2 shooting.

A single unit of Exocrines is also a bigger point bloat than the majority of the daemon army and sits in another slot that is so competitively jockeyed for it's unrealy. Tyranids have...Exocrines. Which you will note no one takes because it's an artillery piece that forces you to have a Synapse babysitter sat on it.

Daemons don't have access to 12 TL str 6 shots on a fmc either.

If you're going to harp on about the only good thing in the entire Tyranid army please go so far to tell the whole story. 12 TL StR 6 shots at AP -. Which only truly perform if tacked on to the singular half decent unit in the entire Tyranid codex.

It's not even funny how terrible that is. The Hive Tyrant is a workhorse and a half...and that just means the next book round there's high odds they slap it to the ground and don't amend the other crippling problems within the Tyranid Codex that led to that very situation in the first place.

Do you think I want my Tyranids to fly around firing S6 spam? No. Good lord no. They're meant to be a true assault army but they're in an edition where not only has assault been nerfed to the ground but GW's design directions have gone back and forth more than a gaunt brood that keeps stepping out of synapse range.

Don't get me wrong, Daemons are in a better spot than nids by a long way, but blatant sandbagging or untruths gets you nowhere. There is no risk to the Tervigon for spawning gaunts, it's low risk, low reward. There's a sizable investment in points and risk to daemonic summoning, it's high risk, high reward. Is the reward out of line with the risk? Maybe, but I don't recall anyone winning a big tournament with a summoning list. They might have used summoning, but as a bolster, not as their main shtick.

Tch. No. I'm sorry. I'm shaking my head here.

You see, to an army that is as functionally crippled as Tyranids, where point micromanagement is literally an art (as we have one, maybe two functional units hence we have to focus on ramping the hell out of them) a Tervigon is a risk in itself. It either sits in a HQ slot (denying a Flyrant) or sits in a troops slot (forcing us to spend so much more points there than we would).

Furthermore, it is a risk. It's a low WS, low I Synapse creature - hello pretty much anything that wants to jump across and assault it. Furthermore, when it dies it takes out swathes of gaunts in collateral.

And to top it off....we average between 7 and 10 gaunts before we putter out and are less useful than, say, a 50 point Zoanthrope. Keeping the Tervigon around your gaunts is a liability - but unless you have other cheap synapse (which you won't because of the huge bloat of points you spent to get this sack of meat) you have no choice. You condemn your ability to hold objectives or your back line with a single choice.

You see, Summoning really isn't that expensive of a choice for Daemons. Not when your options pretty much are a sampling of the best units in your codex that you can summon at the right opportunity. That, if they too are psykers also have a chance to summon as well. You can literally throw all your dice into getting that bloodthirster, that unit of Beasts or those Bloodcrushers on a key turn.

I just get crappy gaunts.

Tyranids...are like CSM in one respect. Their entire codex is a collection of 5th ed point values and unit designs with the odd new unit thrown in.

And to be fair, it needs a lot of love to be brought back to scratch.

The tyranid mono-build is a single unit. The Flyrant. And when you are pretty much forced into a single HQ choice...for an army that is supposed to be based about the whole concept of change, evolution and variation....

That is the greatest tragedy of all.