Does the Imperium maintain foreign relations with the more intelligent reasonable races of the 40k universe such as the other independent human enclave states, various Eldar Craftworlds, Kroot, Tau, and Ork Freebooters...
Or is it shoot on sight. In 40k there is no diplomacy only war .. which is an incredibly moronic and idiotic attitude to have. Does the imperium really need more enemies than the countless Tyranid swarms, Chaos raids, and the Necrons? Or is it even more insidious? Does the IoM have an active policy of extermination against pretty much everyone? Anyone who is not human that swears loyalty to their cult religion is exterminated. Is this not the definition of evil itself? Or does the Imperium technically have a kill everyone on sight policy but in reality has more of a live and let live policy where it doesn't go out of its way to piss off some Eldar Craftworld which will probably retaliate with bad consequences esp. considering how powerful and advanced they are.
Even Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia which I suppose the Imperium of Man is modeled on - while a hyper-aggressive oppressive state - had "foreign policy". They didn't invade Sweden or Switzerland, maintained trade relations with them, and made alliances with other states.
The Eldar and Tau definitely seem to have foreign policy with diplomats and alliances with a wide range of races and each other for mutual - even if short-term - benefit. Does the IoM have a foreign policy or is it just an incredibly idiotic backward hyper-brutalist state that has a shoot on sight policy towards basically everybody including other humans not part of the imperium or Eldar civilians who are like artists and musicians or even minor non-violent Xenos like the Demurig.
DorianGray wrote: Or does the Imperium technically have a kill everyone on sight policy but in reality has more of a live and let live policy where it doesn't go out of its way to piss off some Eldar Craftworld which will probably retaliate with bad consequences esp. considering how powerful and advanced they are.
I'd say this is quite close to the truth. Inquisitors, Rogue Traders, Governors and Chapter Masters (and anyone else of the same or higher power level) can make deals with xenos if it's necessary, but could face scrutiny if someone complains that it's against Imperial interests. Pissing off the Eldar is seldom worth the cost so the most hardline "kill them all" fanatics are kept in check by cooler heads. After all, a Sector Fleet defending Imperial worlds against Chaos, Tyranids and Orks is much nicer to have than the wreckage of a Sector Fleet floating around near a Craftworld you didn't even manage to dent.
Any Xenos race that isn't a threat to the Imperium is usually ignored unless there is literally nothing else to do. I think it was in the Kauyon book (near the end) that stated that non aligned Xenos races were pissed off with the Tau because they were drawing massive Imperial attention to that corner of space.
Rogue Traders are given a licence to treat with Xenos, Inquisitors can do as they please and other high ranking Imperial officials could treat with lesser/minor races (like the Demiurg).
There are examples of Eldar Craftworlds fighting alongside Imperial forces, and typically Craftworlds do their best to avoid Imperial space (since you never know when some random fleet has some dark age of technology battle cruiser that could stand up to a Craftworld).
But those aliens over there - they're not worth the effort. Their planet is horrible and has nothing we want, and they've only just invented the pointy stick.
And those aliens over there? They're REALLY powerful, but don't pay any attention to us. Let's keep it that way.
And these guys? Well, while we would never ADMIT to employing mercenaries...
And these guys have some cool stuff that they'll trade with us. They're on the extermination list, of course, but they're WAAAAAAAAAY down the list, so we might get around to it in 20,000 years assuming nothing more pressing turns up.
The Imperium hates aliens. But it also realises that there's generally not a great deal they can do about most of them and has bigger fish to fry, so while it doesn't have anything like a "foreign policy" it has a lot of local deals of convenience.
Jokaero are often kept as staff/pets by Inquisitors, and they're xenos. Admittedly they don't seem to be interested in anything but building stuff, but they're space faring creatures with a form of society.
The First Tau codex had a story where an Imperial ambassador (don't remember his exact title) is shown around a Tau Facility, as firecaste run drills and training, blowing up mock imperial tanks. He brings an Imperial Fists Captain as backup, which went pretty well, all considering.
Indeed. There have been several novels, codices and Imperial Armour books where 'accredited' diplomats deal with the Tau, and there are plenty of minor races whom Rogue Traders deal with.
Essentially the 'Foreign Policy' is as stated above - the entire Galaxy belongs to the Emperor, and the only reason not to exterminate any specific imperial race is that the Imperium has more pressing uses for its manpower (Tau vs Tyranids, for example).
DorianGray wrote: So you have records of Craftworlds fighting with humans against Chaos and yet the Imperium still has a kill on sight policy towards them?
What madness is this crap?
The problem is that not many in the Imperium can tell the difference between the Craftworld Eldar, and the Dark Eldar or Corsairs who loot their ships and burn their planets.
DorianGray wrote: So you have records of Craftworlds fighting with humans against Chaos and yet the Imperium still has a kill on sight policy towards them?
What madness is this crap?
The problem is that not many in the Imperium can tell the difference between the Craftworld Eldar, and the Dark Eldar or Corsairs who loot their ships and burn their planets.
And even those that can tell the difference know that while the Eldar might fight shoulder to shoulder today against the horrors of the universe, tomorrow they will burn a Imperial planet to ash to save a handful of Eldar lives. Even the “nice” ones.
There is a big gap between the ideal (kill ‘em all) and the practical (trade, ally, etc. with)
I believe there are several sources of fluff including a Ciaphas Cain Novel that deals with the Imperium negotiating with the Tau. The Imperium's policy generally is that if you leave us alone we probably won't bother you since we have 99 other problems. The Tau are able to act as they due for that reason alone. If the IOM had one or two less enemies they would be crushed in short order.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: Jokaero are often kept as staff/pets by Inquisitors, and they're xenos. Admittedly they don't seem to be interested in anything but building stuff, but they're space faring creatures with a form of society.
Jokaero don't have a society. All the insane tech they build is done by instinct. The Old Ones designed them to be that way. They're basically orangutans that will instinctively build a lightning gun if you give them a pile of scrap metal. This is why the Imperium is so cool with them, enough for Ordo Xenos Inquisitors to keep them in their retinues without being considered heretics. It's for the same reason the Imperium is cool with Grox (purple lizards that are used as cows). The Imperium's "suffer not the alien to live" actually only applies to sentient aliens.
The order is far more likely to be lost in the bureaucracy.
Survey vessel finds xenos threat, files report. requesting eradication
Eventually some scribe notes that it might be relevant, forwards to proper authority.
Local authority does not have time or resources to deal with it, includes report in next batch of papers sent to sector command.
Sits in inbox waiting to be processed (assuming no issues with warp/transit)
Forces might be gathered to do the job. But might be sent to somewhere else critical instead, or sent to the wrong place due to a transcription error, or anything really.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: Jokaero are often kept as staff/pets by Inquisitors, and they're xenos. Admittedly they don't seem to be interested in anything but building stuff, but they're space faring creatures with a form of society.
Jokaero don't have a society. All the insane tech they build is done by instinct. The Old Ones designed them to be that way. They're basically orangutans that will instinctively build a lightning gun if you give them a pile of scrap metal. This is why the Imperium is so cool with them, enough for Ordo Xenos Inquisitors to keep them in their retinues without being considered heretics. It's for the same reason the Imperium is cool with Grox (purple lizards that are used as cows). The Imperium's "suffer not the alien to live" actually only applies to sentient aliens.
Pretty sentient if you ask me. Just because they're instinctually brilliant, doesn't mean they haven't evolved sentience. They have been quoted as knowing of C'Tan, can co-ordinate attacks, travel in families and seek out objects. They seem more sentient to me, than we do currently.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: Jokaero are often kept as staff/pets by Inquisitors, and they're xenos. Admittedly they don't seem to be interested in anything but building stuff, but they're space faring creatures with a form of society.
Jokaero don't have a society. All the insane tech they build is done by instinct. The Old Ones designed them to be that way. They're basically orangutans that will instinctively build a lightning gun if you give them a pile of scrap metal. This is why the Imperium is so cool with them, enough for Ordo Xenos Inquisitors to keep them in their retinues without being considered heretics. It's for the same reason the Imperium is cool with Grox (purple lizards that are used as cows). The Imperium's "suffer not the alien to live" actually only applies to sentient aliens.
Pretty sentient if you ask me. Just because they're instinctually brilliant, doesn't mean they haven't evolved sentience. They have been quoted as knowing of C'Tan, can co-ordinate attacks, travel in families and seek out objects. They seem more sentient to me, than we do currently.
That just makes them as smart as any ape (like humans), but the Jokaero are considered to be animals, not a sapient species.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: Jokaero are often kept as staff/pets by Inquisitors, and they're xenos. Admittedly they don't seem to be interested in anything but building stuff, but they're space faring creatures with a form of society.
Not really. Jokero are actually not sentient. They're animals who have the ability to create and use tools. Those tools happen to be highly advanced pieces of technology, but they're still just animals.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: Jokaero are often kept as staff/pets by Inquisitors, and they're xenos. Admittedly they don't seem to be interested in anything but building stuff, but they're space faring creatures with a form of society.
Jokaero don't have a society. All the insane tech they build is done by instinct. The Old Ones designed them to be that way. They're basically orangutans that will instinctively build a lightning gun if you give them a pile of scrap metal. This is why the Imperium is so cool with them, enough for Ordo Xenos Inquisitors to keep them in their retinues without being considered heretics. It's for the same reason the Imperium is cool with Grox (purple lizards that are used as cows). The Imperium's "suffer not the alien to live" actually only applies to sentient aliens.
Pretty sentient if you ask me. Just because they're instinctually brilliant, doesn't mean they haven't evolved sentience. They have been quoted as knowing of C'Tan, can co-ordinate attacks, travel in families and seek out objects. They seem more sentient to me, than we do currently.
That just makes them as smart as any ape (like humans), but the Jokaero are considered to be animals, not a sapient species.
"Their mindset means that they are unable to be reasoned with and communication is seemingly impossible as it is believed that their species have no known form of language, culture or any motivation beyond survival."
From the article you linked. Jokaero may scavenge for equipment, use coordinated attack strategies (which all predator animals do, think of wolf packs) and be led by a strong male or female (again, like wolf packs), but sentience requires an awareness of self that extends beyond simple survival instinct. That's pretty much the definition of sentience. The lack of any kind of language, spoken or otherwise, when it would clearly be advantageous to develop one, indicates that the Jokaero don't have that. What intelligent species wouldn't develop a way to communicate with others of their own kind? Even the dumbest Ork is capable of far more sophisticated communication than a Jokaero.
"Their mindset means that they are unable to be reasoned with and communication is seemingly impossible as it is believed that their species have no known form of language, culture or any motivation beyond survival."
From the article you linked. Jokaero may scavenge for equipment, use coordinated attack strategies (which all predator animals do, think of wolf packs) and be led by a strong male or female (again, like wolf packs), but sentience requires an awareness of self that extends beyond simple survival instinct. That's pretty much the definition of sentience. The lack of any kind of language, spoken or otherwise, when it would clearly be advantageous to develop one, indicates that the Jokaero don't have that. What intelligent species wouldn't develop a way to communicate with others of their own kind? Even the dumbest Ork is capable of far more sophisticated communication than a Jokaero.
It's also worth noting that if the Jokaero are sentient, then they have probably realized that it is in their best interest to be seen as non-sapient animals. If they are believed to be relatively smart 'animals', then the Imperium can justify tolerating their existence. If the Imperium had some concrete evidence of a sophisticated society operating surreptitiously in Imperial Space, I think space monkeys would soon be hunted down.
Also, given that the Imperium has psychics, it would be pretty clear that either Jokaero aren't sentient, aren't sapient in a way that we understand, or have some sort of incredibly sophisticated, imperceptible psychic defenses (which would look like one of the two other options). They clearly aren't just little furry tinkerers merrily living their lives under our noses like some sort of incredibly hairy garden gnomes.
DorianGray wrote: Does the Imperium maintain foreign relations with the more intelligent reasonable races of the 40k universe such as the other independent human enclave states, various Eldar Craftworlds, Kroot, Tau, and Ork Freebooters...
Or is it shoot on sight. In 40k there is no diplomacy only war .. which is an incredibly moronic and idiotic attitude to have. Does the imperium really need more enemies than the countless Tyranid swarms, Chaos raids, and the Necrons? Or is it even more insidious? Does the IoM have an active policy of extermination against pretty much everyone? Anyone who is not human that swears loyalty to their cult religion is exterminated. Is this not the definition of evil itself? Or does the Imperium technically have a kill everyone on sight policy but in reality has more of a live and let live policy where it doesn't go out of its way to piss off some Eldar Craftworld which will probably retaliate with bad consequences esp. considering how powerful and advanced they are.
Even Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia which I suppose the Imperium of Man is modeled on - while a hyper-aggressive oppressive state - had "foreign policy". They didn't invade Sweden or Switzerland, maintained trade relations with them, and made alliances with other states.
The Eldar and Tau definitely seem to have foreign policy with diplomats and alliances with a wide range of races and each other for mutual - even if short-term - benefit. Does the IoM have a foreign policy or is it just an incredibly idiotic backward hyper-brutalist state that has a shoot on sight policy towards basically everybody including other humans not part of the imperium or Eldar civilians who are like artists and musicians or even minor non-violent Xenos like the Demurig.
The Imperium does practice diplomacy and have their own diplomats. High ranking members of the military and various Adepta also have the power to negotiate with xenos if necessary. Hell, Inquisitors and Rogue Traders have xenos in their retinues. The "Watchers in the Dark" that hang out with the Dark Angels (according to some sources) are supposedly xenos of some sort.
Imperial culture might revolve around the alien being one of the big "evils", and aliens end up getting exterminated from time to time. But the Imperium understands realpolitik. It's not always in the interests of the Sentatorum, or always beneficial to the Imperium at large, to wage war on, or exterminate, xenos all of the time.
In theory it is this:
To Humans: Join us or die.
To 'unpure' Humans: Purge the Mutant.
To Aliens: Suffer not the Xenos to live.
In practice, the Imperium does not always have to available resources for a compliance/extermination operation, so it often becomes: We'll get to you later.
There are also some Xenos species such as Eldar or Jokaero whose existance is for various reasons more or less tolerated and with which the Imperium works together every now and then.
It's like how the US and Soviets behaved at various points in regards to Eldar and Tau. Every now and then it gets hot and there is plenty of saber rattling and rhetoric but in reality there is covert trade, deals and a general understanding that a large scale war isn't good for anyone. The IOM could probably give either a knock out punch but that wouldn't off set the damage it would due other forces.
The foreign policy is to shoot on sight, suffer not the xenos, the heretic or the traitor. However, they do have an order of preference.
Public Enemy number 1; Tyranids (there is no negotiation whatsoever)
Public Enemy number 1.1; Chaos in all forms (it is abhorent to work with them, but it has happened in the face of Tyranid invasion)
2; Orks, unless Tyranids or Chaos and then leave them to fight it out and then nuke from orbit
3; Necrons, unless Tyranids, Orks or Chaos, as these guys can give you Archeotech level gear
4; Dark Eldar, unless of the above, and especially in the form of Chaos, but take care as probably will feth you over
5; Eldar- will help if it serves their purpose, especially against Chaos and Necrons, but have also been known to vaporise imperial worlds for their own gains
6; Tau- as with Eldar, but on a much smaller and less powerful scale, so can be ignored for most part
7: other minor Xenos, can be ignored until other threats are dealt with
Small nitpick: don't confuse the ability to feel, sentience, with the ability to think rationally, sapience. The Jokaero definitely are the former, the later is debatable.
The entire novel, Kill Team (Gav Thorpe), revolves around an Imperial Guard desperado squad acting as bodyguards for an Imperial Diplomatic Envoy to the Tau.
I don't know if someone already mentioned it, but techincally what your asking falls under the responsibility of rogue traders. They are mechants, diplomats, explorers, star charters, and are basically only a few steps below inquisitor in power and freedom (since to be a rogue trader, you (or your family) need permission form the emperor, I don't know if high lords are able to give out the permissions)
But their ultimate purpose isn't what we think about diplomats being. Modern days, diplomats are there to ensure that relations between factions remain smooth and to facilitate communication.
Imperial Diplomat's main purpose will be to gauge threats and placate them till an appropriate response can be mustered.
Example:
A new alien race is encountered and appear to be hostile, but negotiations may be possible. A diplomat is sent to engage in negotiations whose main purpose is to stall the aliens long enough for an Imperial force to be assembled to retake any lost territory and exterminate the Xenos.
But their ultimate purpose isn't what we think about diplomats being. Modern days, diplomats are there to ensure that relations between factions remain smooth and to facilitate communication.
Imperial Diplomat's main purpose will be to gauge threats and placate them till an appropriate response can be mustered.
Example:
A new alien race is encountered and appear to be hostile, but negotiations may be possible. A diplomat is sent to engage in negotiations whose main purpose is to stall the aliens long enough for an Imperial force to be assembled to retake any lost territory and exterminate the Xenos.
That and mark those as non threats as such and just to keep a a eye on them, watch for chaos etc. Some they can let live, as there not worth redirecting the resources needed to kill them. Maybe have a fortified diplo!atic compound, as a place to watch, ensure chaos or hostile xeno influence is located and destroyed if happens.
It's worth noting that during the Great Crusade, Imperial Compliance didn't have to be achieved by martial means. As long as a lost human world became Compliant, it didn't matter how it got there and plenty of them accepted the Imperial Truth peacefully.
Horus Rising shows Horus determined to find a diplomatic Compliance to the Interex, a lost civilisation of humans who were even openly integrating with Xenos races (a big no-no during the Great Crusade). Still, Horus persisted with negotiations would have likely succeeded had it not been for Erebus' machinations of a much larger scheme causing negotiations to violently fail.
So if humans kill all Xenos or have a inherent desire or plan to kill all Xenos whether they get to it or not...
Doesn't that make them genuinely evil? Genocidal evil? Basically anyone, ANYONE even a society of fluffy farmer society Xenos is not human they should be exterminated if and when possible.
Basically the crime of anyone who is not like us is existence. You essentially saying their existence is a crime and humans alone get to dictate that.
That makes humans worse than the Eldar, Tau, or even the Orks as they have systematic genocidal intent like the Nazi's. It doesn't matter if the Imperium actually gets to do it or NOT - if they could they would exterminate all Xenos in the galaxy to have a pure and beautiful human only galaxy.
DorianGray wrote: So if humans kill all Xenos or have a inherent desire or plan to kill all Xenos whether they get to it or not...
Doesn't that make them genuinely evil? Genocidal evil? Basically anyone, ANYONE even a society of fluffy farmer society Xenos is not human they should be exterminated if and when possible.
Basically the crime of anyone who is not like us is existence. You essentially saying their existence is a crime and humans alone get to dictate that.
That makes humans worse than the Eldar, Tau, or even the Orks as they have systematic genocidal intent like the Nazi's. It doesn't matter if the Imperium actually gets to do it or NOT - if they could they would exterminate all Xenos in the galaxy to have a pure and beautiful human only galaxy.
What a perfect humanist vision.
Its not genocide if they aren't people. Xenos are animal scum. Its not genocide, its extermination of an infestation.
DorianGray wrote: So if humans kill all Xenos or have a inherent desire or plan to kill all Xenos whether they get to it or not...
Doesn't that make them genuinely evil? Genocidal evil? Basically anyone, ANYONE even a society of fluffy farmer society Xenos is not human they should be exterminated if and when possible.
Basically the crime of anyone who is not like us is existence. You essentially saying their existence is a crime and humans alone get to dictate that.
This is not some guy waking up one day and deciding that he doesn't like that guy with pointy ears. This is learned, ingrained behaviour over 40,000 years of stellar experience. This is knowing that no matter how ell intentioned aliens may appear, they are vipers.
DorianGray wrote: That makes humans worse than the Eldar, Tau, or even the Orks as they have systematic genocidal intent like the Nazi's. It doesn't matter if the Imperium actually gets to do it or NOT - if they could they would exterminate all Xenos in the galaxy to have a pure and beautiful human only galaxy.
What a perfect humanist vision.
It's the only vision that makes sense for us as a species. We are even now in M3, wiping out viruses that threaten us. We are engineering mosquitoes that can reproduce but the males are sterile, in order to destroy them over time.
We cannot coexist with Tyranids, but we equally cannot coexist with Orks. Wherever they outnumber us they subjugate us. There has been peace in the past but it was opportunistic.
The Eldar begrudge our success while considering us animals. They will use us to their own ends and slaughter us if they can. If left alone they might somehow shore up their numbers and ascend to control the galaxy again. We have the upper hand now and cannot afford to stand by until we don't. The real Eldar, mind you are the Commoragh cults and clans. That's where Eldar society goes, naturally. Their end game is degeneracy and predation.
The expansionist Tau sterilise human populations subtly until tau are the dominant race. Their devices are an affront to the machine god. Their influence weakens faith in the God Emperor, which is an actual asset that we need to hold back the daemons.
Kroot are fine. They haven't demonstrated a desire to own the stars or kill all humans (YET.) They've thrown their lot in with the Tau, so until they repent they are still on the 'to do' list.
Vespid are weird though. They are from precisely 1 planet, and we could leave them there if the Tau would stop giving them neutron blasters and brainwashing them into doing suicide drops on Astartes.
I can't think of a single xenos race we'd be better off letting live, long term.
GoonBandito wrote: It's worth noting that during the Great Crusade, Imperial Compliance didn't have to be achieved by martial means. As long as a lost human world became Compliant, it didn't matter how it got there and plenty of them accepted the Imperial Truth peacefully.
Horus Rising shows Horus determined to find a diplomatic Compliance to the Interex, a lost civilisation of humans who were even openly integrating with Xenos races (a big no-no during the Great Crusade). Still, Horus persisted with negotiations would have likely succeeded had it not been for Erebus' machinations of a much larger scheme causing negotiations to violently fail.
Indeed. Of course the Imperium would have slowly exterminated those aliens given time. They'd get shipped off to extermination camps or used as cannon fodder on the front lines till they were exterminated, while at the same time educating the Interex on the evils of aliens.
Tyran wrote: IoM extermination of aliens is genocide. It is also the result of thousands of years of experience in a gakky galaxy.
But that doesn't makes it any less wrong nor evil.
But who cares about morality in 40k? its only fiction.
Is it genocide if you wipe out a colony of rats living in your basement? No. Genocide refers to wiping out people. Eldar are not people, Tau are not people, Kroot, Necrons, Nids, Orks and Hrud and all the other Xenos of the galaxy are not people. It's not genocide, its a cure for a plague on the galaxy.
Tyran wrote: IoM extermination of aliens is genocide. It is also the result of thousands of years of experience in a gakky galaxy.
But that doesn't makes it any less wrong nor evil.
But who cares about morality in 40k? its only fiction.
Is it genocide if you wipe out a colony of rats living in your basement? No. Genocide refers to wiping out people. Eldar are not people, Tau are not people, Kroot, Necrons, Nids, Orks and Hrud and all the other Xenos of the galaxy are not people. It's not genocide, its a cure for a plague on the galaxy.
Oj, now are on the slippery slope of moral semantics. The Nazis did not consider the Jews to be people, so does that mean the Holocaust was not a genocide? What is "People"? And what exactly is it that makes some groups of creatures "people" and others not?
Tyran wrote: IoM extermination of aliens is genocide. It is also the result of thousands of years of experience in a gakky galaxy.
But that doesn't makes it any less wrong nor evil.
But who cares about morality in 40k? its only fiction.
Is it genocide if you wipe out a colony of rats living in your basement? No. Genocide refers to wiping out people. Eldar are not people, Tau are not people, Kroot, Necrons, Nids, Orks and Hrud and all the other Xenos of the galaxy are not people. It's not genocide, its a cure for a plague on the galaxy.
Oj, now are on the slippery slope of moral semantics. The Nazis did not consider the Jews to be people, so does that mean the Holocaust was not a genocide? What is "People"? And what exactly is it that makes some groups of creatures "people" and others not?
The Nazis were mistaken. They considered Jews lesser beings, but they are still human. Same species, same genetic makeup. Eldar are not even close to humans. Tau are barely mammals. Tyranids and Vespid are insects. Orks are barely even animals, actually closer to fungus. Kroot are birdthings. Necrons aren't even alive anymore. Xenos are not human, therefore they are not people. If you want to argue this other, non-human species are people, then the same can be said of animals and viruses, in which case, farming is genocide, hunting is murder. Which of course animals rights activists will jump on I bet.
Point is; If you are human, you are a person. Humans are people, everything else is not.
Yes, the Imperium is a big sack of gak. That's the entire point of the setting. It's a huge, heartless waste of potential and a reversal of the common utopic vision of humanity surviving among the stars in harmony with itself and other forms of life. 40K's humanity doesn't, as a group, seek lives of understanding and compassion. That's why it is doomed. I haven't been keeping up with what they've been changing in the new Heresy series but for years a big part of the whole tragedy of it was that the Emperor never truly confided in his sons, which drove them away from him and made them susceptible to lies, hatred and ambition. Chaos preys upon the desperate and those who lack love. The Imperium clinging to ignorance and hatred as shields against their very emotions will one day be the end of it.
The Nazis were mistaken. They considered Jews lesser beings, but they are still human. Same species, same genetic makeup. Eldar are not even close to humans. Tau are barely mammals. Tyranids and Vespid are insects. Orks are barely even animals, actually closer to fungus. Kroot are birdthings. Necrons aren't even alive anymore. Xenos are not human, therefore they are not people. If you want to argue this other, non-human species are people, then the same can be said of animals and viruses, in which case, farming is genocide, hunting is murder. Which of course animals rights activists will jump on I bet.
Point is; If you are human, you are a person. Humans are people, everything else is not.
I believe that you have missed decades of sci-fi about whether an AI can be a person.
DorianGray wrote: So you have records of Craftworlds fighting with humans against Chaos and yet the Imperium still has a kill on sight policy towards them?
What madness is this crap?
The problem is that not many in the Imperium can tell the difference between the Craftworld Eldar, and the Dark Eldar or Corsairs who loot their ships and burn their planets.
Plenty of "Regular" Eldar act as pirates, too, which I'm sure further muddies the waters.
Rosebuddy wrote: Yes, the Imperium is a big sack of gak. That's the entire point of the setting. It's a huge, heartless waste of potential and a reversal of the common utopic vision of humanity surviving among the stars in harmony with itself and other forms of life. 40K's humanity doesn't, as a group, seek lives of understanding and compassion. That's why it is doomed. I haven't been keeping up with what they've been changing in the new Heresy series but for years a big part of the whole tragedy of it was that the Emperor never truly confided in his sons, which drove them away from him and made them susceptible to lies, hatred and ambition. Chaos preys upon the desperate and those who lack love. The Imperium clinging to ignorance and hatred as shields against their very emotions will one day be the end of it.
The Nazis were mistaken. They considered Jews lesser beings, but they are still human. Same species, same genetic makeup. Eldar are not even close to humans. Tau are barely mammals. Tyranids and Vespid are insects. Orks are barely even animals, actually closer to fungus. Kroot are birdthings. Necrons aren't even alive anymore. Xenos are not human, therefore they are not people. If you want to argue this other, non-human species are people, then the same can be said of animals and viruses, in which case, farming is genocide, hunting is murder. Which of course animals rights activists will jump on I bet.
Point is; If you are human, you are a person. Humans are people, everything else is not.
I believe that you have missed decades of sci-fi about whether an AI can be a person.
Sci-fi, fiction. Meaning its as mutable as the writers and the idea of an artificial intelligence being prejudiced against for being different resonates with people. But at the end of the day, AI are still machines, Xenos are still aliens and a mass removal/killing of either (I say removal because AI are not even alive) is not genocide.
Rosebuddy wrote: Yes, the Imperium is a big sack of gak. That's the entire point of the setting. It's a huge, heartless waste of potential and a reversal of the common utopic vision of humanity surviving among the stars in harmony with itself and other forms of life. 40K's humanity doesn't, as a group, seek lives of understanding and compassion. That's why it is doomed. I haven't been keeping up with what they've been changing in the new Heresy series but for years a big part of the whole tragedy of it was that the Emperor never truly confided in his sons, which drove them away from him and made them susceptible to lies, hatred and ambition. Chaos preys upon the desperate and those who lack love. The Imperium clinging to ignorance and hatred as shields against their very emotions will one day be the end of it.
The Nazis were mistaken. They considered Jews lesser beings, but they are still human. Same species, same genetic makeup. Eldar are not even close to humans. Tau are barely mammals. Tyranids and Vespid are insects. Orks are barely even animals, actually closer to fungus. Kroot are birdthings. Necrons aren't even alive anymore. Xenos are not human, therefore they are not people. If you want to argue this other, non-human species are people, then the same can be said of animals and viruses, in which case, farming is genocide, hunting is murder. Which of course animals rights activists will jump on I bet.
Point is; If you are human, you are a person. Humans are people, everything else is not.
I believe that you have missed decades of sci-fi about whether an AI can be a person.
Sci-fi, fiction. Meaning its as mutable as the writers and the idea of an artificial intelligence being prejudiced against for being different resonates with people. But at the end of the day, AI are still machines, Xenos are still aliens and a mass removal/killing of either (I say removal because AI are not even alive) is not genocide.
Rosebuddy wrote: Yes, the Imperium is a big sack of gak. That's the entire point of the setting. It's a huge, heartless waste of potential and a reversal of the common utopic vision of humanity surviving among the stars in harmony with itself and other forms of life. 40K's humanity doesn't, as a group, seek lives of understanding and compassion. That's why it is doomed. I haven't been keeping up with what they've been changing in the new Heresy series but for years a big part of the whole tragedy of it was that the Emperor never truly confided in his sons, which drove them away from him and made them susceptible to lies, hatred and ambition. Chaos preys upon the desperate and those who lack love. The Imperium clinging to ignorance and hatred as shields against their very emotions will one day be the end of it.
The Nazis were mistaken. They considered Jews lesser beings, but they are still human. Same species, same genetic makeup. Eldar are not even close to humans. Tau are barely mammals. Tyranids and Vespid are insects. Orks are barely even animals, actually closer to fungus. Kroot are birdthings. Necrons aren't even alive anymore. Xenos are not human, therefore they are not people. If you want to argue this other, non-human species are people, then the same can be said of animals and viruses, in which case, farming is genocide, hunting is murder. Which of course animals rights activists will jump on I bet.
Point is; If you are human, you are a person. Humans are people, everything else is not.
I believe that you have missed decades of sci-fi about whether an AI can be a person.
Sci-fi, fiction. Meaning its as mutable as the writers and the idea of an artificial intelligence being prejudiced against for being different resonates with people. But at the end of the day, AI are still machines, Xenos are still aliens and a mass removal/killing of either (I say removal because AI are not even alive) is not genocide.
What is it, then?
What would you call it?
Curing. Culling. Removing parasites. War. Take your pick.
Sci-fi, fiction. Meaning its as mutable as the writers and the idea of an artificial intelligence being prejudiced against for being different resonates with people. But at the end of the day, AI are still machines, Xenos are still aliens and a mass removal/killing of either (I say removal because AI are not even alive) is not genocide.
Mutable fiction, as opposed to your immutable fact? AI and aliens alike are not known to exist so we can only speculate or at best reason about them. Defining "people" as "biologically human" is myopic. Very much in line with 40k's Imperium but not very impressive.
Robin5t wrote: I feel sapience is the defining feature of a person, personally.
If you had experienced ~35,000 years of constantly fighting off extinction as a result of other sapient creatures you'd have a different point of view.
Robin5t wrote: I feel sapience is the defining feature of a person, personally.
If you had experienced ~35,000 years of constantly fighting off extinction as a result of other sapient creatures you'd have a different point of view.
Robin5t wrote: I feel sapience is the defining feature of a person, personally.
If you had experienced ~35,000 years of constantly fighting off extinction as a result of other sapient creatures you'd have a different point of view.
Have you heard about "human history"?
Humans fighting humans isn't threatening extinction(least till nukes entered the picture).
Sci-fi, fiction. Meaning its as mutable as the writers and the idea of an artificial intelligence being prejudiced against for being different resonates with people. But at the end of the day, AI are still machines, Xenos are still aliens and a mass removal/killing of either (I say removal because AI are not even alive) is not genocide.
Mutable fiction, as opposed to your immutable fact? AI and aliens alike are not known to exist so we can only speculate or at best reason about them. Defining "people" as "biologically human" is myopic. Very much in line with 40k's Imperium but not very impressive.
We don't have aliens, as in living creatures from another planet. We do have rats and other vermin. If you were to wipe out a termite colony eating your house, is it genocide? If you cut out a cancerous tumour growing inside you, is it genocide? If you burn out an infection, is it genocide? If you format your hardrive, is it genocide? Tyranids are just termites, Tau a tumour, Orks, Eldar, Necrons and other Xenos are just infections on the galaxy needing to be cured. AI are but machines. You cannot murder an animal, cannot murder a virus, a fungus or a computer. These beings are not people, therefore it is not genocide.
Robin5t wrote: I feel sapience is the defining feature of a person, personally.
If you had experienced ~35,000 years of constantly fighting off extinction as a result of other sapient creatures you'd have a different point of view.
Have you heard about "human history"?
War is not extinction, war is the human equivilent of 2 chimp packs fighting over territory or resources (we'll ignore religious wars for a moment because they are a whole new level of stupid). Animals make war over territory, food and mates all the time. Just like in humans, one side backs off when it cannot win, to preserve itself, and becomes lesser members of the other pack, or it moves to another area or it gets killed off. But the species goes on.
Extinction as Grey Templar said, its other sapient species that are the issue. If cats suddenly turned on humans and tried to wipe us out, remove our species from existance so they can rule in our place, it'd be the same thing
Rosebuddy wrote: Yes, the Imperium is a big sack of gak. That's the entire point of the setting. It's a huge, heartless waste of potential and a reversal of the common utopic vision of humanity surviving among the stars in harmony with itself and other forms of life. 40K's humanity doesn't, as a group, seek lives of understanding and compassion. That's why it is doomed. I haven't been keeping up with what they've been changing in the new Heresy series but for years a big part of the whole tragedy of it was that the Emperor never truly confided in his sons, which drove them away from him and made them susceptible to lies, hatred and ambition. Chaos preys upon the desperate and those who lack love. The Imperium clinging to ignorance and hatred as shields against their very emotions will one day be the end of it.
The Nazis were mistaken. They considered Jews lesser beings, but they are still human. Same species, same genetic makeup. Eldar are not even close to humans. Tau are barely mammals. Tyranids and Vespid are insects. Orks are barely even animals, actually closer to fungus. Kroot are birdthings. Necrons aren't even alive anymore. Xenos are not human, therefore they are not people. If you want to argue this other, non-human species are people, then the same can be said of animals and viruses, in which case, farming is genocide, hunting is murder. Which of course animals rights activists will jump on I bet.
Point is; If you are human, you are a person. Humans are people, everything else is not.
I believe that you have missed decades of sci-fi about whether an AI can be a person.
"Understanding" and "Compassion" toward the xeno are two things that, more often than not, tends to get you killed.
The Orks and Tyranids wouldn't appreciate or understand it. The Hrud are parasites and reclusive. The Necrons won't care and reject any "olive branch" that isn't all on their own terms. The same that can be said of the Necrons, can be said of the Tau's long term goals. The Dark Eldar are nothing but irredeemable monsters, corrupted filth, and cowardly hedonists. The Exodites just want everybody to leave them alone.
And don't think for a minute that compassion and understanding will make any headway with the "civilized" Eldar of the Craftworlds. They are just as bigoted and arrogant as the worst Human in the Imperium. Like Mankind, they put their survival first. They'll shake your hand with a smile and accept your olive branch, then turn around and kill a few billion of the "lesser" races just to save one Eldar.
Humanity in the 41st Millenium is the way it is not because of a lack of compassion and understanding, but because the galaxy is a fethed up place. Hard won experience through countless battles, campaigns, and massacres. Refusal to embrace a more egalitarian stance isn't going to doom Humanity. In fact, pure ruthlessness, intolerance, and mistrust are a big part of why the Imperium has lasted as long as it has, despite being besieged on all sides and having serious internal issues.
Deadshot wrote: I believe that you have missed decades of sci-fi about whether an AI can be a person.
Sci-fi, fiction. Meaning its as mutable as the writers and the idea of an artificial intelligence being prejudiced against for being different resonates with people. But at the end of the day, AI are still machines, Xenos are still aliens and a mass removal/killing of either (I say removal because AI are not even alive) is not genocide.
Language is mutable. Ultimately, words only mean what people agree they mean. I think most people would agree that non-human sentient creatures are "people" and mass killing of them is "genocide"
DorianGray wrote: So if humans kill all Xenos or have a inherent desire or plan to kill all Xenos whether they get to it or not...
Doesn't that make them genuinely evil? Genocidal evil? Basically anyone, ANYONE even a society of fluffy farmer society Xenos is not human they should be exterminated if and when possible.
Basically the crime of anyone who is not like us is existence. You essentially saying their existence is a crime and humans alone get to dictate that.
That makes humans worse than the Eldar, Tau, or even the Orks as they have systematic genocidal intent like the Nazi's. It doesn't matter if the Imperium actually gets to do it or NOT - if they could they would exterminate all Xenos in the galaxy to have a pure and beautiful human only galaxy.
What a perfect humanist vision.
The average Imperial human isn't murderously xenophobic. In their view, it's the xenos who are constantly threatening them. Coexistence is impossible because aliens are unremittingly hostile to human life and civilization. Everything in the lore bears this out: even the tau are painted in Imperial propaganda as cruel butchers who massacre and enslave human worlds. But in most cases, it's not even propaganda: most xenos are unremittingly hostile to humanity and impossible to reason with. Most xenos are orks. And the tau are at least hostile; they're actively trying to take over Imperial worlds.
In the case of less aggressive xenos, the Imperium doesn't kill on sight. In the books, there are examples of advanced xenos empires living just a few weeks away from the Imperium for thousands of years. Aliens can visit Imperial worlds on an individual basis, given the status of "sanctioned xenos". And I don't think the average Imperial noble has any problem understanding the eldar to be an old, advanced, highly civilized race, even if they also see them as arrogant, untrustworthy and cruel (partly because of the dark eldar). On occasions when Imperial Guard and Eldar have been on the same side in a battle (see Tallarn), the humans often end up, if not allies, then at least having a favorable opinion of the xenos. It's not like they're too stupid to see merit where it exists.
We don't have aliens, as in living creatures from another planet. We do have rats and other vermin. If you were to wipe out a termite colony eating your house, is it genocide? If you cut out a cancerous tumour growing inside you, is it genocide? If you burn out an infection, is it genocide? If you format your hardrive, is it genocide? Tyranids are just termites, Tau a tumour, Orks, Eldar, Necrons and other Xenos are just infections on the galaxy needing to be cured. AI are but machines. You cannot murder an animal, cannot murder a virus, a fungus or a computer. These beings are not people, therefore it is not genocide.
It is deeply myopic of you to jump immediately to the assumption that an alien must be exactly like a creature that often competes with humans for resources. You show no understanding for how complex the question of what "animal" even means is. You show no respect for that humans share ancestors with chimpanzees a mere few million years ago and have been behaviourally modern for a time span that is an insignificant blip in the age of the universe. You take hateful language at face value without applying any critical thinking.
oldravenman3025 wrote: "Understanding" and "Compassion" toward the xeno are two things that, more often than not, tends to get you killed.
Orks, necrons and tyranids are essentially a kind of weapon. They aren't ordinary living things. Dark eldar are all mad. Not very good examples of baseline behaviour. Tau and eldar are very similar to the Imperium in that they want to come out on top. You cite this shared behaviour as the reason why they can never be trusted and will eternally be enemies of humanity (Imperium or no). That's exactly what I'm talking about. The total lack of desire to trust and be trustworthy is as much of a danger to everyone as any mindless automaton ruled by star vampires could be.
oldravenman3025 wrote: Humanity in the 41st Millenium is the way it is not because of a lack of compassion and understanding, but because the galaxy is a fethed up place. Hard won experience through countless battles, campaigns, and massacres. Refusal to embrace a more egalitarian stance isn't going to doom Humanity. In fact, pure ruthlessness, intolerance, and mistrust are a big part of why the Imperium has lasted as long as it has, despite being besieged on all sides and having serious internal issues.
The Imperium declines, unable and unwilling to counter greed, ambition and hatred with anything but crushing force. The horrible conditions the Imperium imposes create the need to rebel against it. The entire fething point behind Chaos is that it is mortal impulses run rampant without any regard for anyone at all and that it preys on the discontent, the desperate and the ignorant. The Imperium regularly wipes out aliens on worlds it is interested in filling with humans. They have been necrons and tyranids to countless thinking, feeling beings. If all that humanity is ever going to be in the far future is a conquering, repressive force then what value does its existence even have? Orks might as well do it. At least they wouldn't know unhappiness or fear while fighting everything and everyone in their path so we'd all be saved a lot of suffering.
Deadshot wrote: I believe that you have missed decades of sci-fi about whether an AI can be a person.
Sci-fi, fiction. Meaning its as mutable as the writers and the idea of an artificial intelligence being prejudiced against for being different resonates with people. But at the end of the day, AI are still machines, Xenos are still aliens and a mass removal/killing of either (I say removal because AI are not even alive) is not genocide.
Language is mutable. Ultimately, words only mean what people agree they mean. I think most people would agree that non-human sentient creatures are "people" and mass killing of them is "genocide"
DorianGray wrote: So if humans kill all Xenos or have a inherent desire or plan to kill all Xenos whether they get to it or not...
Doesn't that make them genuinely evil? Genocidal evil? Basically anyone, ANYONE even a society of fluffy farmer society Xenos is not human they should be exterminated if and when possible.
Basically the crime of anyone who is not like us is existence. You essentially saying their existence is a crime and humans alone get to dictate that.
That makes humans worse than the Eldar, Tau, or even the Orks as they have systematic genocidal intent like the Nazi's. It doesn't matter if the Imperium actually gets to do it or NOT - if they could they would exterminate all Xenos in the galaxy to have a pure and beautiful human only galaxy.
What a perfect humanist vision.
The average Imperial human isn't murderously xenophobic. In their view, it's the xenos who are constantly threatening them. Coexistence is impossible because aliens are unremittingly hostile to human life and civilization. Everything in the lore bears this out: even the tau are painted in Imperial propaganda as cruel butchers who massacre and enslave human worlds. But in most cases, it's not even propaganda: most xenos are unremittingly hostile to humanity and impossible to reason with. Most xenos are orks. And the tau are at least hostile; they're actively trying to take over Imperial worlds.
In the case of less aggressive xenos, the Imperium doesn't kill on sight. In the books, there are examples of advanced xenos empires living just a few weeks away from the Imperium for thousands of years. Aliens can visit Imperial worlds on an individual basis, given the status of "sanctioned xenos". And I don't think the average Imperial noble has any problem understanding the eldar to be an old, advanced, highly civilized race, even if they also see them as arrogant, untrustworthy and cruel (partly because of the dark eldar). On occasions when Imperial Guard and Eldar have been on the same side in a battle (see Tallarn), the humans often end up, if not allies, then at least having a favorable opinion of the xenos. It's not like they're too stupid to see merit where it exists.
We don't have aliens, as in living creatures from another planet. We do have rats and other vermin. If you were to wipe out a termite colony eating your house, is it genocide? If you cut out a cancerous tumour growing inside you, is it genocide? If you burn out an infection, is it genocide? If you format your hardrive, is it genocide? Tyranids are just termites, Tau a tumour, Orks, Eldar, Necrons and other Xenos are just infections on the galaxy needing to be cured. AI are but machines. You cannot murder an animal, cannot murder a virus, a fungus or a computer. These beings are not people, therefore it is not genocide.
It is deeply myopic of you to jump immediately to the assumption that an alien must be exactly like a creature that often competes with humans for resources. You show no understanding for how complex the question of what "animal" even means is. You show no respect for that humans share ancestors with chimpanzees a mere few million years ago and have been behaviourally modern for a time span that is an insignificant blip in the age of the universe. You take hateful language at face value without applying any critical thinking.
oldravenman3025 wrote: "Understanding" and "Compassion" toward the xeno are two things that, more often than not, tends to get you killed.
Orks, necrons and tyranids are essentially a kind of weapon. They aren't ordinary living things. Dark eldar are all mad. Not very good examples of baseline behaviour. Tau and eldar are very similar to the Imperium in that they want to come out on top. You cite this shared behaviour as the reason why they can never be trusted and will eternally be enemies of humanity (Imperium or no). That's exactly what I'm talking about. The total lack of desire to trust and be trustworthy is as much of a danger to everyone as any mindless automaton ruled by star vampires could be.
oldravenman3025 wrote: Humanity in the 41st Millenium is the way it is not because of a lack of compassion and understanding, but because the galaxy is a fethed up place. Hard won experience through countless battles, campaigns, and massacres. Refusal to embrace a more egalitarian stance isn't going to doom Humanity. In fact, pure ruthlessness, intolerance, and mistrust are a big part of why the Imperium has lasted as long as it has, despite being besieged on all sides and having serious internal issues.
The Imperium declines, unable and unwilling to counter greed, ambition and hatred with anything but crushing force. The horrible conditions the Imperium imposes create the need to rebel against it. The entire fething point behind Chaos is that it is mortal impulses run rampant without any regard for anyone at all and that it preys on the discontent, the desperate and the ignorant. The Imperium regularly wipes out aliens on worlds it is interested in filling with humans. They have been necrons and tyranids to countless thinking, feeling beings. If all that humanity is ever going to be in the far future is a conquering, repressive force then what value does its existence even have? Orks might as well do it. At least they wouldn't know unhappiness or fear while fighting everything and everyone in their path so we'd all be saved a lot of suffering.
Humans and chimps share ancestors, and humans are still animals in the biological sense of the word. But at the end of the day, 1 human life is worth infinite numbers of non-human lives or AI, regardless of how sentient or sapient that being may be, and to consider otherwise is deeply, deeply stupid. Non-human species are animals, whether sentient or not, and to think of it a murder is wrong, you cannot murder an animal, therefore it cannot be genocide, plain and simple.
being that every xenos race is currently competing with the Imperium, constantly using them as tools, food, entertainment, often time remove all human life from planets, and if the planets aren't wiped out (captured by tau) brainwashing, getting fixed, and other such things happen. terrible acts are being committed by both sides, and the Imperium IS fighting a war of extinction (at least when it comes to every race other then eldar or tau, but even then the tau treat humans as less then dirt, and the Eldar are more then willing to throw billions of human lives off of a cliff to simply prolong their existence, are we gonna call that willingness to commit genocide? Orks, Eldar, Necrons, Tau, Chaos, 'Nids, and humans ALL are guilty of wiping all life from planets. if you wanna call humans evil for doing it, you better apply that to everyone, or you should think about the circumstances of 38,000 years into the future.
If I label another person as a sub-human or an animal and then proceed to kill him - it counts as not murder. In human history that's EXACTLY what the Nazis did.
You're an idiot deadshot. In 40k universe if the Imperium decides to swoop down and murder some exodities doing their nature thing riding giant birds and safekeeping nature on their paradise planet do you think that is NOT murder?
The Eldar have a more civilized sophisticated technologically advanced cultured society than the Imperium you moron. In the other thread 75% of people voted that the Eldar have a higher standard of living than the Imperium in almost every single way.
I'd love if you were in charge of Imperium actions, murder some Xenos for the hell of it (like the Exodities) and then a Craftworld jumps out of the webway massacres/obliterates your entire sector fleet and planet without you making a dent in them for being an donkey-cave and murderous Xeno hating brownshirt and you get executed by the Imperium for incompetence for pissing off the Eldar for no reason.
so, he's a donkey-cave and a murderer, but when the eldar do it it's justified because their civilians have a higher standard of life? not trying to be rude, but what?
If I label another person as a sub-human or an animal and then proceed to kill him - it counts as not murder. In human history that's EXACTLY what the Nazis did.
You're an idiot deadshot. In 40k universe if the Imperium decides to swoop down and murder some exodities doing their nature thing riding giant birds and safekeeping nature on their paradise planet do you think that is NOT murder?
The Eldar have a more civilized sophisticated technologically advanced cultured society than the Imperium you moron. In the other thread 75% of people voted that the Eldar have a higher standard of living than the Imperium in almost every single way.
I'd love if you were in charge of Imperium actions, murder some Xenos for the hell of it (like the Exodities) and then a Craftworld jumps out of the webway massacres/obliterates your entire sector fleet and planet without you making a dent in them for being an donkey-cave and murderous Xeno hating brownshirt and you get executed by the Imperium for incompetence for pissing off the Eldar for no reason.
Except the Nazis wrongly decided that Jews were not humans. They are humans, and they were murdered. Xenos are no more humans than a cow or dog or lion is. You CANNOT murder something that is not a human, as murder (homicide) is killing of people. They are a threat to the human species. Its not genocide, and its definitely necessary. You would be the one executed. Remember: Suffer not the alien to live.
As for morality, everyone needs to understand that morality, just does not exist. Its just a bunch of social constructs to stop us ripping our throats out of each other. An example of this could be a child living in the west under a caring and wealthy family Vs. A child living under gang influence in the favelas in Brazil. Morailty is not genetic.
And so this goes with 40k, our perspective of morality is a lot different to the IoM, but there are still billions of people who also share different aspects of morality, but in general IoM would like to think either systematic extermination or "we'll get you soon.. just not yet", hence why SM get the tagline "religious space Nazi's" because that is the heart of the imperium that gets personified with the majority of Marines.
The Imperium does this because it has too for the survival of mankind after learning for the past few millenniums that the majority of Xenos will either kill you, force you to see only their ways or eat you.
Deadshot wrote: Non-human species are animals, whether sentient or not, and to think of it a murder is wrong, you cannot murder an animal, therefore it cannot be genocide, plain and simple.
Deadshot wrote: You CANNOT murder something that is not a human, as murder (homicide) is killing of people.
That's like Christian right-wingers saying you CANNOT marry someone of your own sex. Words are tools; they only mean what people think they should mean, and their use is always changing.
Deadshot wrote: at the end of the day, 1 human life is worth infinite numbers of non-human lives or AI, regardless of how sentient or sapient that being may be, and to consider otherwise is deeply, deeply stupid.
I'm sure there are quite a few people who would give their lives to save chimps and tigers from extinction. There actually are a lot of people who risk their lives protecting them from poachers, etc.
DorianGray wrote: So you have records of Craftworlds fighting with humans against Chaos and yet the Imperium still has a kill on sight policy towards them?
What madness is this crap?
It's largely due to the existence of the Dark Eldar. Atrocities commited by them are no doubt often blamed on Craftworld Eldar by imperial leaders who don't differentiate between the two.
If I label another person as a sub-human or an animal and then proceed to kill him - it counts as not murder. In human history that's EXACTLY what the Nazis did.
You're an idiot deadshot. In 40k universe if the Imperium decides to swoop down and murder some exodities doing their nature thing riding giant birds and safekeeping nature on their paradise planet do you think that is NOT murder?
The Eldar have a more civilized sophisticated technologically advanced cultured society than the Imperium you moron. In the other thread 75% of people voted that the Eldar have a higher standard of living than the Imperium in almost every single way.
I'd love if you were in charge of Imperium actions, murder some Xenos for the hell of it (like the Exodities) and then a Craftworld jumps out of the webway massacres/obliterates your entire sector fleet and planet without you making a dent in them for being an donkey-cave and murderous Xeno hating brownshirt and you get executed by the Imperium for incompetence for pissing off the Eldar for no reason.
Wow. I suggest you take a step back and breath, haha.
Deadshot wrote: Non-human species are animals, whether sentient or not, and to think of it a murder is wrong, you cannot murder an animal, therefore it cannot be genocide, plain and simple.
Deadshot wrote: You CANNOT murder something that is not a human, as murder (homicide) is killing of people.
That's like Christian right-wingers saying you CANNOT marry someone of your own sex. Words are tools; they only mean what people think they should mean, and their use is always changing.
Deadshot wrote: at the end of the day, 1 human life is worth infinite numbers of non-human lives or AI, regardless of how sentient or sapient that being may be, and to consider otherwise is deeply, deeply stupid.
I'm sure there are quite a few people who would give their lives to save chimps and tigers from extinction. There actually are a lot of people who risk their lives protecting them from poachers, etc.
Murder is ny definition restricted to humans killing humans (homicide). And people who give their lives for animals waste their livesm
To be devils advocate here, I do believe in a universal morality that everyone will be held a countable for, we did not evolve from prilimates but we're created by a higher being, and humans are the "dominate " species on earth.....so being devil advocate here on the forum is being basic Christian .
But as for the 40k setting I could care less about how the humans are portrayed in the aetting. I play orks. I don't think my religious beliefs prevent me for enjoying the setting for what it is. Dave (I'm pretty sure that's his name) from miniwargameing is Christian and plays khorne.
I myself have my own setting I'm developing, it's predominately filled with aliens who have their own beliefs, religions, technology, and morality that conflict but have to couperate under a great threat.
It's fun to enjoy a Sci fi setting, it helps my own creativity, but I don't let it influence my own belief, nor do I let my belief spoil the fun of this game I enjoy.
Though I don't play iom, I still see the enjoyment in their stubborness born from a setting so grimdark to snuff out any hope for cooperation.
Deadshot wrote: Murder is in my definition restricted to humans killing humans (homicide). And people who give their lives for animals waste their livesm
OK, but what I'm saying is, the argument, "No, they're not murderous because killing eldar isn't murder," is based on a presupposition that for many people isn't valid. If you believe killing non-humans can't be murder, then the argument works. If you don't believe that, then it doesn't work.
As for me, I don't think I'm even being aberrant in saying that there have been, and are, many humans whose lives I care less about than my cat's.
DorianGray wrote: So you have records of Craftworlds fighting with humans against Chaos and yet the Imperium still has a kill on sight policy towards them?
What madness is this crap?
It's largely due to the existence of the Dark Eldar. Atrocities commited by them are no doubt often blamed on Craftworld Eldar by imperial leaders who don't differentiate between the two.
The Craftworlders are dangerously fickle, and only marginally more trustworthy than the scum of Commorragh. And like the Imperium of Man, they have plenty of blood on their hands. Imperial leadership knows the difference between the two, and the true nature of both. Therefore, they are treated like any other xeno species in the galaxy.
oldravenman3025 wrote: Imperial leadership knows the difference between the two, and the true nature of both.
Sure Eldar are fickle, but unlike the Dark Eldar, they're not evil. I'd say the majority of the imperium puts them all in the same boat . Obviously there are those that know the difference, but on the whole, we're talking about a society that is steeped in xenophobia and ignorance.
If you're familiar with Forgotten Realms / D&D you have the same situation with the Elves and the Drow. The Elves get hate and distrust from humans because Drow raids get blamed on them, and on the other hand the benevolence of the Elves often misguides humans into trusting Drow. Dark Eldar are essentially "Space Drow."
Honestly from the perspective of the IOM both Eldar and Dark Eldar are pretty evil. One group raids and tortures you and the other uses you as a meat shield and will try slaughtering varying amounts of your population.
And from the Eldar perspective the IoM is evil. If we start comparing perspectives then no one and everyone is evil. Except the Dark Eldar, those guys love being evil.
Tyran wrote: And from the Eldar perspective the IoM is evil. If we start comparing perspectives then no one and everyone is evil. Except the Dark Eldar, those guys love being evil.
Welcome to grimadark 40k... And its beautiful...
As for DE love being evil, this isn't quite so the case, DE mostly do it because it keep their souls lasting longer so they won't be taken by Slannesh, only few really love being "Evil".
That would most usually apply to Slannesh and the EC.They love ecstatic pain and inflicting it upon others a lot more than the amount of soul-fries in Commaragh.
The Dark Eldar could adopt the more neighbor friendly methods of the Craftworld Eldar. But no, they love being sadistic bastards.
As for Chaos, while I consider mortal followers to be mostly evil, the Chaos Gods and the Daemons are what they are. Slaanesh is ecstasy, pleasure and pain and will never be something else, it is its very nature. The same applies to the rest of the immortal and immaterial Chaos.
Tyran wrote: The Dark Eldar could adopt the more neighbor friendly methods of the Craftworld Eldar. But no, they love being sadistic bastards.
As for Chaos, while I consider mortal followers to be mostly evil, the Chaos Gods and the Daemons are what they are. Slaanesh is ecstasy, pleasure and pain and will never be something else, it is its very nature. The same applies to the rest of the immortal and immaterial Chaos.
Ah, theirs the problem. You perceive them to be evil, but they do not percieve themselves to be evil. To them its a way to preserve themselves and therefore a means to an end, and they may as well take some pleasure from it since those Xeno's never learned their lesson in the first place..
As for adopting "neighbor friendly"methods like the Craftworlds... They were Friendly? Friendly? You do realize that Craftworlds only ally themselves if it benefits the Craftworld? The main difference of why they both do what they do is because the Craftworlds are the psyker-end of the spectrum and see the future all the time, in addition they have soulstones which protect them from Slannesh. Commoragh-kin have no such luxury and found other methods to keep themselves surviving; The truly horrifying thing from our perspective is that they work. adding so much more grim dark to the setting which is loved by all.
By our perceptions of morality we perceive DE as sadist savages, but by that same logic the Craftworlds are a bunch of sociopaths. Its also one half of a story of a story we truely cannot judge due to the 41st millennium being vastly different to our ways of logic and moral grounds.
As for Slannesh, yes that could be said for the Daemons, but it really is a much different story in the CSM. Once that road started becoming more a path on twisted damnation, they couldn't have cared less. In ways the EC are just as "Evil" as the Night Lords with the exception that Night Lords know exactly what their doing, and just don't care whilst EC are under some delusion that their deity will grant them more pleasure-gifts from murdering millions.
Tyran wrote: The Dark Eldar could adopt the more neighbor friendly methods of the Craftworld Eldar. But no, they love being sadistic bastards.
As for Chaos, while I consider mortal followers to be mostly evil, the Chaos Gods and the Daemons are what they are. Slaanesh is ecstasy, pleasure and pain and will never be something else, it is its very nature. The same applies to the rest of the immortal and immaterial Chaos.
Ah, theirs the problem. You perceive them to be evil, but they do not percieve themselves to be evil. To them its a way to preserve themselves and therefore a means to an end, and they may as well take some pleasure from it since those Xeno's never learned their lesson in the first place..
As for adopting "neighbor friendly"methods like the Craftworlds... They were Friendly? Friendly? You do realize that Craftworlds only ally themselves if it benefits the Craftworld? The main difference of why they both do what they do is because the Craftworlds are the psyker-end of the spectrum and see the future all the time, in addition they have soulstones which protect them from Slannesh. Commoragh-kin have no such luxury and found other methods to keep themselves surviving; The truly horrifying thing from our perspective is that they work. adding so much more grim dark to the setting which is loved by all.
By our perceptions of morality we perceive DE as sadist savages, but by that same logic the Craftworlds are a bunch of sociopaths. Its also one half of a story of a story we truely cannot judge due to the 41st millennium being vastly different to our ways of logic and moral grounds.
As for Slannesh, yes that could be said for the Daemons, but it really is a much different story in the CSM. Once that road started becoming more a path on twisted damnation, they couldn't have cared less. In ways the EC are just as "Evil" as the Night Lords with the exception that Night Lords know exactly what their doing, and just don't care whilst EC are under some delusion that their deity will grant them more pleasure-gifts from murdering millions.
It is neighbor friendly compared to what the Dark Eldar do.
And no, there are options for the Dark Eldar, but they don't care and they go out of their way to be as evil as possible to both the other races in the galaxy and to each other.
Because they're just lying around aren't they. Getting them is incredibly dangerous even if you have people with experience helping you. Not to mention the obscene number you'd need.
As if they cared about casualties. And if the other Eldars can do it, so can they.
The IoM does what it does for humankind, so it can have a future. The Craftworld Eldar for similar reasons, the Tau for the Greater Good. Necrons do it for the return of their old empire. Tyranids and Orks don't even understand the concepts of morality. Chaos because that is what it is (but most of their mortal followers are evil as they had a choice and they know that they are evil).
But the Dark Eldar do it for themselves, they don't care about the Dark Eldar as a whole, they go out of their way to be as vicious as possible. They constantly kill and torture each other for souls and giggles, and they do it in the most possible depraved ways imaginable, and they know it. The funny part is that they are essentially Slaanesh Eldar, but they don't want to admit that.
The old ways of the Empire is what started this mess in the first place.
It was needed the birth of a god that killed their Empire to teach them that they were fethed up, and yet they didn't pay attention.
And their attempts at keep their souls are hilarious. Aside of some higher ups (aka Vect), the average Dark Eldar will eventually be killed, or tortured and killed, by other Dark Eldar. Their own love to their live style is what condemns them, because their live style revolves around torturing and killing each other.
