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Does the Imperium maintain foreign relations with the more intelligent reasonable races of the 40k universe such as the other independent human enclave states, various Eldar Craftworlds, Kroot, Tau, and Ork Freebooters...

Or is it shoot on sight. In 40k there is no diplomacy only war .. which is an incredibly moronic and idiotic attitude to have. Does the imperium really need more enemies than the countless Tyranid swarms, Chaos raids, and the Necrons? Or is it even more insidious? Does the IoM have an active policy of extermination against pretty much everyone? Anyone who is not human that swears loyalty to their cult religion is exterminated. Is this not the definition of evil itself? Or does the Imperium technically have a kill everyone on sight policy but in reality has more of a live and let live policy where it doesn't go out of its way to piss off some Eldar Craftworld which will probably retaliate with bad consequences esp. considering how powerful and advanced they are.

Even Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia which I suppose the Imperium of Man is modeled on - while a hyper-aggressive oppressive state - had "foreign policy". They didn't invade Sweden or Switzerland, maintained trade relations with them, and made alliances with other states.

The Eldar and Tau definitely seem to have foreign policy with diplomats and alliances with a wide range of races and each other for mutual - even if short-term - benefit. Does the IoM have a foreign policy or is it just an incredibly idiotic backward hyper-brutalist state that has a shoot on sight policy towards basically everybody including other humans not part of the imperium or Eldar civilians who are like artists and musicians or even minor non-violent Xenos like the Demurig.

DorianGray wrote:
Or does the Imperium technically have a kill everyone on sight policy but in reality has more of a live and let live policy where it doesn't go out of its way to piss off some Eldar Craftworld which will probably retaliate with bad consequences esp. considering how powerful and advanced they are.

I'd say this is quite close to the truth. Inquisitors, Rogue Traders, Governors and Chapter Masters (and anyone else of the same or higher power level) can make deals with xenos if it's necessary, but could face scrutiny if someone complains that it's against Imperial interests. Pissing off the Eldar is seldom worth the cost so the most hardline "kill them all" fanatics are kept in check by cooler heads. After all, a Sector Fleet defending Imperial worlds against Chaos, Tyranids and Orks is much nicer to have than the wreckage of a Sector Fleet floating around near a Craftworld you didn't even manage to dent.

Any Xenos race that isn't a threat to the Imperium is usually ignored unless there is literally nothing else to do. I think it was in the Kauyon book (near the end) that stated that non aligned Xenos races were pissed off with the Tau because they were drawing massive Imperial attention to that corner of space.

Rogue Traders are given a licence to treat with Xenos, Inquisitors can do as they please and other high ranking Imperial officials could treat with lesser/minor races (like the Demiurg).

There are examples of Eldar Craftworlds fighting alongside Imperial forces, and typically Craftworlds do their best to avoid Imperial space (since you never know when some random fleet has some dark age of technology battle cruiser that could stand up to a Craftworld).

So you have records of Craftworlds fighting with humans against Chaos and yet the Imperium still has a kill on sight policy towards them?

What madness is this crap?

"Suffer not the alien to live"

But those aliens over there - they're not worth the effort. Their planet is horrible and has nothing we want, and they've only just invented the pointy stick.

And those aliens over there? They're REALLY powerful, but don't pay any attention to us. Let's keep it that way.

And these guys? Well, while we would never ADMIT to employing mercenaries...

And these guys have some cool stuff that they'll trade with us. They're on the extermination list, of course, but they're WAAAAAAAAAY down the list, so we might get around to it in 20,000 years assuming nothing more pressing turns up.

The Imperium hates aliens. But it also realises that there's generally not a great deal they can do about most of them and has bigger fish to fry, so while it doesn't have anything like a "foreign policy" it has a lot of local deals of convenience.

Jokaero are often kept as staff/pets by Inquisitors, and they're xenos. Admittedly they don't seem to be interested in anything but building stuff, but they're space faring creatures with a form of society.

The First Tau codex had a story where an Imperial ambassador (don't remember his exact title) is shown around a Tau Facility, as firecaste run drills and training, blowing up mock imperial tanks. He brings an Imperial Fists Captain as backup, which went pretty well, all considering.

Indeed. There have been several novels, codices and Imperial Armour books where 'accredited' diplomats deal with the Tau, and there are plenty of minor races whom Rogue Traders deal with.

Essentially the 'Foreign Policy' is as stated above - the entire Galaxy belongs to the Emperor, and the only reason not to exterminate any specific imperial race is that the Imperium has more pressing uses for its manpower (Tau vs Tyranids, for example).

DorianGray wrote:
So you have records of Craftworlds fighting with humans against Chaos and yet the Imperium still has a kill on sight policy towards them?

What madness is this crap?

The problem is that not many in the Imperium can tell the difference between the Craftworld Eldar, and the Dark Eldar or Corsairs who loot their ships and burn their planets.

 Robin5t wrote:

DorianGray wrote:
So you have records of Craftworlds fighting with humans against Chaos and yet the Imperium still has a kill on sight policy towards them?

What madness is this crap?

The problem is that not many in the Imperium can tell the difference between the Craftworld Eldar, and the Dark Eldar or Corsairs who loot their ships and burn their planets.

And even those that can tell the difference know that while the Eldar might fight shoulder to shoulder today against the horrors of the universe, tomorrow they will burn a Imperial planet to ash to save a handful of Eldar lives. Even the “nice” ones.

There is a big gap between the ideal (kill ‘em all) and the practical (trade, ally, etc. with)

I believe there are several sources of fluff including a Ciaphas Cain Novel that deals with the Imperium negotiating with the Tau. The Imperium's policy generally is that if you leave us alone we probably won't bother you since we have 99 other problems. The Tau are able to act as they due for that reason alone. If the IOM had one or two less enemies they would be crushed in short order.

I still think the order to attack would get lost in the Warp. That's how stupid the Imperium is.

Martel732 wrote:
I still think the order to attack would get lost in the Warp. That's how stupid the Imperium is.

How exactly is the way they communicate stupid. Of all the things they do that are dumb Astropaths seem low down the list.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
Jokaero are often kept as staff/pets by Inquisitors, and they're xenos. Admittedly they don't seem to be interested in anything but building stuff, but they're space faring creatures with a form of society.

Jokaero don't have a society. All the insane tech they build is done by instinct. The Old Ones designed them to be that way. They're basically orangutans that will instinctively build a lightning gun if you give them a pile of scrap metal. This is why the Imperium is so cool with them, enough for Ordo Xenos Inquisitors to keep them in their retinues without being considered heretics. It's for the same reason the Imperium is cool with Grox (purple lizards that are used as cows). The Imperium's "suffer not the alien to live" actually only applies to sentient aliens.

The order is far more likely to be lost in the bureaucracy.

Survey vessel finds xenos threat, files report. requesting eradication
Eventually some scribe notes that it might be relevant, forwards to proper authority.
Local authority does not have time or resources to deal with it, includes report in next batch of papers sent to sector command.
Sits in inbox waiting to be processed (assuming no issues with warp/transit)
Forces might be gathered to do the job. But might be sent to somewhere else critical instead, or sent to the wrong place due to a transcription error, or anything really.

 fallinq wrote:

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
Jokaero are often kept as staff/pets by Inquisitors, and they're xenos. Admittedly they don't seem to be interested in anything but building stuff, but they're space faring creatures with a form of society.

Jokaero don't have a society. All the insane tech they build is done by instinct. The Old Ones designed them to be that way. They're basically orangutans that will instinctively build a lightning gun if you give them a pile of scrap metal. This is why the Imperium is so cool with them, enough for Ordo Xenos Inquisitors to keep them in their retinues without being considered heretics. It's for the same reason the Imperium is cool with Grox (purple lizards that are used as cows). The Imperium's "suffer not the alien to live" actually only applies to sentient aliens.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Jokaero

Pretty sentient if you ask me. Just because they're instinctually brilliant, doesn't mean they haven't evolved sentience. They have been quoted as knowing of C'Tan, can co-ordinate attacks, travel in families and seek out objects. They seem more sentient to me, than we do currently.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:

 fallinq wrote:

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
Jokaero are often kept as staff/pets by Inquisitors, and they're xenos. Admittedly they don't seem to be interested in anything but building stuff, but they're space faring creatures with a form of society.

Jokaero don't have a society. All the insane tech they build is done by instinct. The Old Ones designed them to be that way. They're basically orangutans that will instinctively build a lightning gun if you give them a pile of scrap metal. This is why the Imperium is so cool with them, enough for Ordo Xenos Inquisitors to keep them in their retinues without being considered heretics. It's for the same reason the Imperium is cool with Grox (purple lizards that are used as cows). The Imperium's "suffer not the alien to live" actually only applies to sentient aliens.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Jokaero

Pretty sentient if you ask me. Just because they're instinctually brilliant, doesn't mean they haven't evolved sentience. They have been quoted as knowing of C'Tan, can co-ordinate attacks, travel in families and seek out objects. They seem more sentient to me, than we do currently.

That just makes them as smart as any ape (like humans), but the Jokaero are considered to be animals, not a sapient species.

 Psienesis wrote:
That just makes them as smart as any ape (like humans), but the Jokaero are considered to be animals, not a sapient species.

Is this out of factual accuracy or convenience, though?

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
Jokaero are often kept as staff/pets by Inquisitors, and they're xenos. Admittedly they don't seem to be interested in anything but building stuff, but they're space faring creatures with a form of society.

Not really. Jokero are actually not sentient. They're animals who have the ability to create and use tools. Those tools happen to be highly advanced pieces of technology, but they're still just animals.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:

 fallinq wrote:

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
Jokaero are often kept as staff/pets by Inquisitors, and they're xenos. Admittedly they don't seem to be interested in anything but building stuff, but they're space faring creatures with a form of society.

Jokaero don't have a society. All the insane tech they build is done by instinct. The Old Ones designed them to be that way. They're basically orangutans that will instinctively build a lightning gun if you give them a pile of scrap metal. This is why the Imperium is so cool with them, enough for Ordo Xenos Inquisitors to keep them in their retinues without being considered heretics. It's for the same reason the Imperium is cool with Grox (purple lizards that are used as cows). The Imperium's "suffer not the alien to live" actually only applies to sentient aliens.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Jokaero

Pretty sentient if you ask me. Just because they're instinctually brilliant, doesn't mean they haven't evolved sentience. They have been quoted as knowing of C'Tan, can co-ordinate attacks, travel in families and seek out objects. They seem more sentient to me, than we do currently.

That just makes them as smart as any ape (like humans), but the Jokaero are considered to be animals, not a sapient species.

"Their mindset means that they are unable to be reasoned with and communication is seemingly impossible as it is believed that their species have no known form of language, culture or any motivation beyond survival."

From the article you linked. Jokaero may scavenge for equipment, use coordinated attack strategies (which all predator animals do, think of wolf packs) and be led by a strong male or female (again, like wolf packs), but sentience requires an awareness of self that extends beyond simple survival instinct. That's pretty much the definition of sentience. The lack of any kind of language, spoken or otherwise, when it would clearly be advantageous to develop one, indicates that the Jokaero don't have that. What intelligent species wouldn't develop a way to communicate with others of their own kind? Even the dumbest Ork is capable of far more sophisticated communication than a Jokaero.

 fallinq wrote:

"Their mindset means that they are unable to be reasoned with and communication is seemingly impossible as it is believed that their species have no known form of language, culture or any motivation beyond survival."

From the article you linked. Jokaero may scavenge for equipment, use coordinated attack strategies (which all predator animals do, think of wolf packs) and be led by a strong male or female (again, like wolf packs), but sentience requires an awareness of self that extends beyond simple survival instinct. That's pretty much the definition of sentience. The lack of any kind of language, spoken or otherwise, when it would clearly be advantageous to develop one, indicates that the Jokaero don't have that. What intelligent species wouldn't develop a way to communicate with others of their own kind? Even the dumbest Ork is capable of far more sophisticated communication than a Jokaero.

It's also worth noting that if the Jokaero are sentient, then they have probably realized that it is in their best interest to be seen as non-sapient animals. If they are believed to be relatively smart 'animals', then the Imperium can justify tolerating their existence. If the Imperium had some concrete evidence of a sophisticated society operating surreptitiously in Imperial Space, I think space monkeys would soon be hunted down.

Also, given that the Imperium has psychics, it would be pretty clear that either Jokaero aren't sentient, aren't sapient in a way that we understand, or have some sort of incredibly sophisticated, imperceptible psychic defenses (which would look like one of the two other options). They clearly aren't just little furry tinkerers merrily living their lives under our noses like some sort of incredibly hairy garden gnomes.

DorianGray wrote:
Does the Imperium maintain foreign relations with the more intelligent reasonable races of the 40k universe such as the other independent human enclave states, various Eldar Craftworlds, Kroot, Tau, and Ork Freebooters...

Or is it shoot on sight. In 40k there is no diplomacy only war .. which is an incredibly moronic and idiotic attitude to have. Does the imperium really need more enemies than the countless Tyranid swarms, Chaos raids, and the Necrons? Or is it even more insidious? Does the IoM have an active policy of extermination against pretty much everyone? Anyone who is not human that swears loyalty to their cult religion is exterminated. Is this not the definition of evil itself? Or does the Imperium technically have a kill everyone on sight policy but in reality has more of a live and let live policy where it doesn't go out of its way to piss off some Eldar Craftworld which will probably retaliate with bad consequences esp. considering how powerful and advanced they are.

Even Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia which I suppose the Imperium of Man is modeled on - while a hyper-aggressive oppressive state - had "foreign policy". They didn't invade Sweden or Switzerland, maintained trade relations with them, and made alliances with other states.

The Eldar and Tau definitely seem to have foreign policy with diplomats and alliances with a wide range of races and each other for mutual - even if short-term - benefit. Does the IoM have a foreign policy or is it just an incredibly idiotic backward hyper-brutalist state that has a shoot on sight policy towards basically everybody including other humans not part of the imperium or Eldar civilians who are like artists and musicians or even minor non-violent Xenos like the Demurig.

The Imperium does practice diplomacy and have their own diplomats. High ranking members of the military and various Adepta also have the power to negotiate with xenos if necessary. Hell, Inquisitors and Rogue Traders have xenos in their retinues. The "Watchers in the Dark" that hang out with the Dark Angels (according to some sources) are supposedly xenos of some sort.


Imperial culture might revolve around the alien being one of the big "evils", and aliens end up getting exterminated from time to time. But the Imperium understands realpolitik. It's not always in the interests of the Sentatorum, or always beneficial to the Imperium at large, to wage war on, or exterminate, xenos all of the time.

In theory it is this:
To Humans: Join us or die.
To 'unpure' Humans: Purge the Mutant.
To Aliens: Suffer not the Xenos to live.

In practice, the Imperium does not always have to available resources for a compliance/extermination operation, so it often becomes: We'll get to you later.
There are also some Xenos species such as Eldar or Jokaero whose existance is for various reasons more or less tolerated and with which the Imperium works together every now and then.

It's like how the US and Soviets behaved at various points in regards to Eldar and Tau. Every now and then it gets hot and there is plenty of saber rattling and rhetoric but in reality there is covert trade, deals and a general understanding that a large scale war isn't good for anyone. The IOM could probably give either a knock out punch but that wouldn't off set the damage it would due other forces.

Sure like the emissary at the gates of mordor,.

We make you an offer you can't refuse

The foreign policy is to shoot on sight, suffer not the xenos, the heretic or the traitor. However, they do have an order of preference.


Public Enemy number 1; Tyranids (there is no negotiation whatsoever)
Public Enemy number 1.1; Chaos in all forms (it is abhorent to work with them, but it has happened in the face of Tyranid invasion)
2; Orks, unless Tyranids or Chaos and then leave them to fight it out and then nuke from orbit
3; Necrons, unless Tyranids, Orks or Chaos, as these guys can give you Archeotech level gear
4; Dark Eldar, unless of the above, and especially in the form of Chaos, but take care as probably will feth you over
5; Eldar- will help if it serves their purpose, especially against Chaos and Necrons, but have also been known to vaporise imperial worlds for their own gains
6; Tau- as with Eldar, but on a much smaller and less powerful scale, so can be ignored for most part
7: other minor Xenos, can be ignored until other threats are dealt with

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I still think the order to attack would get lost in the Warp. That's how stupid the Imperium is.

How exactly is the way they communicate stupid. Of all the things they do that are dumb Astropaths seem low down the list.

Because everything about GW's IoM is some of the stupidest fiction I have ever read. It's down there with Terry Goodkind and his S+M fantasies.

Martel732 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I still think the order to attack would get lost in the Warp. That's how stupid the Imperium is.

How exactly is the way they communicate stupid. Of all the things they do that are dumb Astropaths seem low down the list.

Because everything about GW's IoM is some of the stupidest fiction I have ever read. It's down there with Terry Goodkind and his S+M fantasies.

Then leave, go find a setting you actually like. If you don't like it and are just going to spout negativity there's no point in even being here.

Small nitpick: don't confuse the ability to feel, sentience, with the ability to think rationally, sapience. The Jokaero definitely are the former, the later is debatable.

Martel732 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I still think the order to attack would get lost in the Warp. That's how stupid the Imperium is.

How exactly is the way they communicate stupid. Of all the things they do that are dumb Astropaths seem low down the list.

Because everything about GW's IoM is some of the stupidest fiction I have ever read. It's down there with Terry Goodkind and his S+M fantasies.

So why are you even posting on the forums? Quit trolling man, it doesn't impress anyone.