Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Deadshot wrote:


Sci-fi, fiction. Meaning its as mutable as the writers and the idea of an artificial intelligence being prejudiced against for being different resonates with people. But at the end of the day, AI are still machines, Xenos are still aliens and a mass removal/killing of either (I say removal because AI are not even alive) is not genocide.

Mutable fiction, as opposed to your immutable fact? AI and aliens alike are not known to exist so we can only speculate or at best reason about them. Defining "people" as "biologically human" is myopic. Very much in line with 40k's Imperium but not very impressive.

 Robin5t wrote:
I feel sapience is the defining feature of a person, personally.

If you had experienced ~35,000 years of constantly fighting off extinction as a result of other sapient creatures you'd have a different point of view.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
I feel sapience is the defining feature of a person, personally.

If you had experienced ~35,000 years of constantly fighting off extinction as a result of other sapient creatures you'd have a different point of view.

Have you heard about "human history"?

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
I feel sapience is the defining feature of a person, personally.

If you had experienced ~35,000 years of constantly fighting off extinction as a result of other sapient creatures you'd have a different point of view.

Have you heard about "human history"?

Humans fighting humans isn't threatening extinction(least till nukes entered the picture).

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:


Sci-fi, fiction. Meaning its as mutable as the writers and the idea of an artificial intelligence being prejudiced against for being different resonates with people. But at the end of the day, AI are still machines, Xenos are still aliens and a mass removal/killing of either (I say removal because AI are not even alive) is not genocide.

Mutable fiction, as opposed to your immutable fact? AI and aliens alike are not known to exist so we can only speculate or at best reason about them. Defining "people" as "biologically human" is myopic. Very much in line with 40k's Imperium but not very impressive.

We don't have aliens, as in living creatures from another planet. We do have rats and other vermin. If you were to wipe out a termite colony eating your house, is it genocide? If you cut out a cancerous tumour growing inside you, is it genocide? If you burn out an infection, is it genocide? If you format your hardrive, is it genocide? Tyranids are just termites, Tau a tumour, Orks, Eldar, Necrons and other Xenos are just infections on the galaxy needing to be cured. AI are but machines. You cannot murder an animal, cannot murder a virus, a fungus or a computer. These beings are not people, therefore it is not genocide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
I feel sapience is the defining feature of a person, personally.

If you had experienced ~35,000 years of constantly fighting off extinction as a result of other sapient creatures you'd have a different point of view.

Have you heard about "human history"?

War is not extinction, war is the human equivilent of 2 chimp packs fighting over territory or resources (we'll ignore religious wars for a moment because they are a whole new level of stupid). Animals make war over territory, food and mates all the time. Just like in humans, one side backs off when it cannot win, to preserve itself, and becomes lesser members of the other pack, or it moves to another area or it gets killed off. But the species goes on.

Extinction as Grey Templar said, its other sapient species that are the issue. If cats suddenly turned on humans and tried to wipe us out, remove our species from existance so they can rule in our place, it'd be the same thing

Rosebuddy wrote:
Yes, the Imperium is a big sack of gak. That's the entire point of the setting. It's a huge, heartless waste of potential and a reversal of the common utopic vision of humanity surviving among the stars in harmony with itself and other forms of life. 40K's humanity doesn't, as a group, seek lives of understanding and compassion. That's why it is doomed. I haven't been keeping up with what they've been changing in the new Heresy series but for years a big part of the whole tragedy of it was that the Emperor never truly confided in his sons, which drove them away from him and made them susceptible to lies, hatred and ambition. Chaos preys upon the desperate and those who lack love. The Imperium clinging to ignorance and hatred as shields against their very emotions will one day be the end of it.

 Deadshot wrote:

The Nazis were mistaken. They considered Jews lesser beings, but they are still human. Same species, same genetic makeup. Eldar are not even close to humans. Tau are barely mammals. Tyranids and Vespid are insects. Orks are barely even animals, actually closer to fungus. Kroot are birdthings. Necrons aren't even alive anymore. Xenos are not human, therefore they are not people. If you want to argue this other, non-human species are people, then the same can be said of animals and viruses, in which case, farming is genocide, hunting is murder. Which of course animals rights activists will jump on I bet.

Point is; If you are human, you are a person. Humans are people, everything else is not.

I believe that you have missed decades of sci-fi about whether an AI can be a person.

"Understanding" and "Compassion" toward the xeno are two things that, more often than not, tends to get you killed.

The Orks and Tyranids wouldn't appreciate or understand it. The Hrud are parasites and reclusive. The Necrons won't care and reject any "olive branch" that isn't all on their own terms. The same that can be said of the Necrons, can be said of the Tau's long term goals. The Dark Eldar are nothing but irredeemable monsters, corrupted filth, and cowardly hedonists. The Exodites just want everybody to leave them alone.

And don't think for a minute that compassion and understanding will make any headway with the "civilized" Eldar of the Craftworlds. They are just as bigoted and arrogant as the worst Human in the Imperium. Like Mankind, they put their survival first. They'll shake your hand with a smile and accept your olive branch, then turn around and kill a few billion of the "lesser" races just to save one Eldar.

Humanity in the 41st Millenium is the way it is not because of a lack of compassion and understanding, but because the galaxy is a fethed up place. Hard won experience through countless battles, campaigns, and massacres. Refusal to embrace a more egalitarian stance isn't going to doom Humanity. In fact, pure ruthlessness, intolerance, and mistrust are a big part of why the Imperium has lasted as long as it has, despite being besieged on all sides and having serious internal issues.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
I believe that you have missed decades of sci-fi about whether an AI can be a person.

Sci-fi, fiction. Meaning its as mutable as the writers and the idea of an artificial intelligence being prejudiced against for being different resonates with people. But at the end of the day, AI are still machines, Xenos are still aliens and a mass removal/killing of either (I say removal because AI are not even alive) is not genocide.

Language is mutable. Ultimately, words only mean what people agree they mean. I think most people would agree that non-human sentient creatures are "people" and mass killing of them is "genocide"

DorianGray wrote:
So if humans kill all Xenos or have a inherent desire or plan to kill all Xenos whether they get to it or not...

Doesn't that make them genuinely evil? Genocidal evil? Basically anyone, ANYONE even a society of fluffy farmer society Xenos is not human they should be exterminated if and when possible.

Basically the crime of anyone who is not like us is existence. You essentially saying their existence is a crime and humans alone get to dictate that.

That makes humans worse than the Eldar, Tau, or even the Orks as they have systematic genocidal intent like the Nazi's. It doesn't matter if the Imperium actually gets to do it or NOT - if they could they would exterminate all Xenos in the galaxy to have a pure and beautiful human only galaxy.


What a perfect humanist vision.

The average Imperial human isn't murderously xenophobic. In their view, it's the xenos who are constantly threatening them. Coexistence is impossible because aliens are unremittingly hostile to human life and civilization. Everything in the lore bears this out: even the tau are painted in Imperial propaganda as cruel butchers who massacre and enslave human worlds. But in most cases, it's not even propaganda: most xenos are unremittingly hostile to humanity and impossible to reason with. Most xenos are orks. And the tau are at least hostile; they're actively trying to take over Imperial worlds.

In the case of less aggressive xenos, the Imperium doesn't kill on sight. In the books, there are examples of advanced xenos empires living just a few weeks away from the Imperium for thousands of years. Aliens can visit Imperial worlds on an individual basis, given the status of "sanctioned xenos". And I don't think the average Imperial noble has any problem understanding the eldar to be an old, advanced, highly civilized race, even if they also see them as arrogant, untrustworthy and cruel (partly because of the dark eldar). On occasions when Imperial Guard and Eldar have been on the same side in a battle (see Tallarn), the humans often end up, if not allies, then at least having a favorable opinion of the xenos. It's not like they're too stupid to see merit where it exists.

 Deadshot wrote:

We don't have aliens, as in living creatures from another planet. We do have rats and other vermin. If you were to wipe out a termite colony eating your house, is it genocide? If you cut out a cancerous tumour growing inside you, is it genocide? If you burn out an infection, is it genocide? If you format your hardrive, is it genocide? Tyranids are just termites, Tau a tumour, Orks, Eldar, Necrons and other Xenos are just infections on the galaxy needing to be cured. AI are but machines. You cannot murder an animal, cannot murder a virus, a fungus or a computer. These beings are not people, therefore it is not genocide.

It is deeply myopic of you to jump immediately to the assumption that an alien must be exactly like a creature that often competes with humans for resources. You show no understanding for how complex the question of what "animal" even means is. You show no respect for that humans share ancestors with chimpanzees a mere few million years ago and have been behaviourally modern for a time span that is an insignificant blip in the age of the universe. You take hateful language at face value without applying any critical thinking.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:
"Understanding" and "Compassion" toward the xeno are two things that, more often than not, tends to get you killed.

Orks, necrons and tyranids are essentially a kind of weapon. They aren't ordinary living things. Dark eldar are all mad. Not very good examples of baseline behaviour. Tau and eldar are very similar to the Imperium in that they want to come out on top. You cite this shared behaviour as the reason why they can never be trusted and will eternally be enemies of humanity (Imperium or no). That's exactly what I'm talking about. The total lack of desire to trust and be trustworthy is as much of a danger to everyone as any mindless automaton ruled by star vampires could be.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:
Humanity in the 41st Millenium is the way it is not because of a lack of compassion and understanding, but because the galaxy is a fethed up place. Hard won experience through countless battles, campaigns, and massacres. Refusal to embrace a more egalitarian stance isn't going to doom Humanity. In fact, pure ruthlessness, intolerance, and mistrust are a big part of why the Imperium has lasted as long as it has, despite being besieged on all sides and having serious internal issues.

The Imperium declines, unable and unwilling to counter greed, ambition and hatred with anything but crushing force. The horrible conditions the Imperium imposes create the need to rebel against it. The entire fething point behind Chaos is that it is mortal impulses run rampant without any regard for anyone at all and that it preys on the discontent, the desperate and the ignorant. The Imperium regularly wipes out aliens on worlds it is interested in filling with humans. They have been necrons and tyranids to countless thinking, feeling beings. If all that humanity is ever going to be in the far future is a conquering, repressive force then what value does its existence even have? Orks might as well do it. At least they wouldn't know unhappiness or fear while fighting everything and everyone in their path so we'd all be saved a lot of suffering.

Xenoesis wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
I believe that you have missed decades of sci-fi about whether an AI can be a person.

Sci-fi, fiction. Meaning its as mutable as the writers and the idea of an artificial intelligence being prejudiced against for being different resonates with people. But at the end of the day, AI are still machines, Xenos are still aliens and a mass removal/killing of either (I say removal because AI are not even alive) is not genocide.

Language is mutable. Ultimately, words only mean what people agree they mean. I think most people would agree that non-human sentient creatures are "people" and mass killing of them is "genocide"

DorianGray wrote:
So if humans kill all Xenos or have a inherent desire or plan to kill all Xenos whether they get to it or not...

Doesn't that make them genuinely evil? Genocidal evil? Basically anyone, ANYONE even a society of fluffy farmer society Xenos is not human they should be exterminated if and when possible.

Basically the crime of anyone who is not like us is existence. You essentially saying their existence is a crime and humans alone get to dictate that.

That makes humans worse than the Eldar, Tau, or even the Orks as they have systematic genocidal intent like the Nazi's. It doesn't matter if the Imperium actually gets to do it or NOT - if they could they would exterminate all Xenos in the galaxy to have a pure and beautiful human only galaxy.


What a perfect humanist vision.

The average Imperial human isn't murderously xenophobic. In their view, it's the xenos who are constantly threatening them. Coexistence is impossible because aliens are unremittingly hostile to human life and civilization. Everything in the lore bears this out: even the tau are painted in Imperial propaganda as cruel butchers who massacre and enslave human worlds. But in most cases, it's not even propaganda: most xenos are unremittingly hostile to humanity and impossible to reason with. Most xenos are orks. And the tau are at least hostile; they're actively trying to take over Imperial worlds.

In the case of less aggressive xenos, the Imperium doesn't kill on sight. In the books, there are examples of advanced xenos empires living just a few weeks away from the Imperium for thousands of years. Aliens can visit Imperial worlds on an individual basis, given the status of "sanctioned xenos". And I don't think the average Imperial noble has any problem understanding the eldar to be an old, advanced, highly civilized race, even if they also see them as arrogant, untrustworthy and cruel (partly because of the dark eldar). On occasions when Imperial Guard and Eldar have been on the same side in a battle (see Tallarn), the humans often end up, if not allies, then at least having a favorable opinion of the xenos. It's not like they're too stupid to see merit where it exists.

Those people are wrong.

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

We don't have aliens, as in living creatures from another planet. We do have rats and other vermin. If you were to wipe out a termite colony eating your house, is it genocide? If you cut out a cancerous tumour growing inside you, is it genocide? If you burn out an infection, is it genocide? If you format your hardrive, is it genocide? Tyranids are just termites, Tau a tumour, Orks, Eldar, Necrons and other Xenos are just infections on the galaxy needing to be cured. AI are but machines. You cannot murder an animal, cannot murder a virus, a fungus or a computer. These beings are not people, therefore it is not genocide.

It is deeply myopic of you to jump immediately to the assumption that an alien must be exactly like a creature that often competes with humans for resources. You show no understanding for how complex the question of what "animal" even means is. You show no respect for that humans share ancestors with chimpanzees a mere few million years ago and have been behaviourally modern for a time span that is an insignificant blip in the age of the universe. You take hateful language at face value without applying any critical thinking.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:
"Understanding" and "Compassion" toward the xeno are two things that, more often than not, tends to get you killed.

Orks, necrons and tyranids are essentially a kind of weapon. They aren't ordinary living things. Dark eldar are all mad. Not very good examples of baseline behaviour. Tau and eldar are very similar to the Imperium in that they want to come out on top. You cite this shared behaviour as the reason why they can never be trusted and will eternally be enemies of humanity (Imperium or no). That's exactly what I'm talking about. The total lack of desire to trust and be trustworthy is as much of a danger to everyone as any mindless automaton ruled by star vampires could be.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:
Humanity in the 41st Millenium is the way it is not because of a lack of compassion and understanding, but because the galaxy is a fethed up place. Hard won experience through countless battles, campaigns, and massacres. Refusal to embrace a more egalitarian stance isn't going to doom Humanity. In fact, pure ruthlessness, intolerance, and mistrust are a big part of why the Imperium has lasted as long as it has, despite being besieged on all sides and having serious internal issues.

The Imperium declines, unable and unwilling to counter greed, ambition and hatred with anything but crushing force. The horrible conditions the Imperium imposes create the need to rebel against it. The entire fething point behind Chaos is that it is mortal impulses run rampant without any regard for anyone at all and that it preys on the discontent, the desperate and the ignorant. The Imperium regularly wipes out aliens on worlds it is interested in filling with humans. They have been necrons and tyranids to countless thinking, feeling beings. If all that humanity is ever going to be in the far future is a conquering, repressive force then what value does its existence even have? Orks might as well do it. At least they wouldn't know unhappiness or fear while fighting everything and everyone in their path so we'd all be saved a lot of suffering.

Humans and chimps share ancestors, and humans are still animals in the biological sense of the word. But at the end of the day, 1 human life is worth infinite numbers of non-human lives or AI, regardless of how sentient or sapient that being may be, and to consider otherwise is deeply, deeply stupid. Non-human species are animals, whether sentient or not, and to think of it a murder is wrong, you cannot murder an animal, therefore it cannot be genocide, plain and simple.

being that every xenos race is currently competing with the Imperium, constantly using them as tools, food, entertainment, often time remove all human life from planets, and if the planets aren't wiped out (captured by tau) brainwashing, getting fixed, and other such things happen. terrible acts are being committed by both sides, and the Imperium IS fighting a war of extinction (at least when it comes to every race other then eldar or tau, but even then the tau treat humans as less then dirt, and the Eldar are more then willing to throw billions of human lives off of a cliff to simply prolong their existence, are we gonna call that willingness to commit genocide? Orks, Eldar, Necrons, Tau, Chaos, 'Nids, and humans ALL are guilty of wiping all life from planets. if you wanna call humans evil for doing it, you better apply that to everyone, or you should think about the circumstances of 38,000 years into the future.

Deadshot is a troll. Either that or he is a slow.

If I label another person as a sub-human or an animal and then proceed to kill him - it counts as not murder. In human history that's EXACTLY what the Nazis did.

You're an idiot deadshot. In 40k universe if the Imperium decides to swoop down and murder some exodities doing their nature thing riding giant birds and safekeeping nature on their paradise planet do you think that is NOT murder?

The Eldar have a more civilized sophisticated technologically advanced cultured society than the Imperium you moron. In the other thread 75% of people voted that the Eldar have a higher standard of living than the Imperium in almost every single way.

I'd love if you were in charge of Imperium actions, murder some Xenos for the hell of it (like the Exodities) and then a Craftworld jumps out of the webway massacres/obliterates your entire sector fleet and planet without you making a dent in them for being an donkey-cave and murderous Xeno hating brownshirt and you get executed by the Imperium for incompetence for pissing off the Eldar for no reason.

DorianGray wrote:
snip

so, he's a donkey-cave and a murderer, but when the eldar do it it's justified because their civilians have a higher standard of life? not trying to be rude, but what?

DorianGray wrote:
Deadshot is a troll. Either that or he is a slow.

If I label another person as a sub-human or an animal and then proceed to kill him - it counts as not murder. In human history that's EXACTLY what the Nazis did.

You're an idiot deadshot. In 40k universe if the Imperium decides to swoop down and murder some exodities doing their nature thing riding giant birds and safekeeping nature on their paradise planet do you think that is NOT murder?

The Eldar have a more civilized sophisticated technologically advanced cultured society than the Imperium you moron. In the other thread 75% of people voted that the Eldar have a higher standard of living than the Imperium in almost every single way.

I'd love if you were in charge of Imperium actions, murder some Xenos for the hell of it (like the Exodities) and then a Craftworld jumps out of the webway massacres/obliterates your entire sector fleet and planet without you making a dent in them for being an donkey-cave and murderous Xeno hating brownshirt and you get executed by the Imperium for incompetence for pissing off the Eldar for no reason.

Except the Nazis wrongly decided that Jews were not humans. They are humans, and they were murdered. Xenos are no more humans than a cow or dog or lion is. You CANNOT murder something that is not a human, as murder (homicide) is killing of people. They are a threat to the human species. Its not genocide, and its definitely necessary. You would be the one executed. Remember: Suffer not the alien to live.

Well we got to this can of worms....

As for morality, everyone needs to understand that morality, just does not exist. Its just a bunch of social constructs to stop us ripping our throats out of each other. An example of this could be a child living in the west under a caring and wealthy family Vs. A child living under gang influence in the favelas in Brazil. Morailty is not genetic.

And so this goes with 40k, our perspective of morality is a lot different to the IoM, but there are still billions of people who also share different aspects of morality, but in general IoM would like to think either systematic extermination or "we'll get you soon.. just not yet", hence why SM get the tagline "religious space Nazi's" because that is the heart of the imperium that gets personified with the majority of Marines.

The Imperium does this because it has too for the survival of mankind after learning for the past few millenniums that the majority of Xenos will either kill you, force you to see only their ways or eat you.

 Deadshot wrote:
Non-human species are animals, whether sentient or not, and to think of it a murder is wrong, you cannot murder an animal, therefore it cannot be genocide, plain and simple.

 Deadshot wrote:
You CANNOT murder something that is not a human, as murder (homicide) is killing of people.

That's like Christian right-wingers saying you CANNOT marry someone of your own sex. Words are tools; they only mean what people think they should mean, and their use is always changing.

 Deadshot wrote:
at the end of the day, 1 human life is worth infinite numbers of non-human lives or AI, regardless of how sentient or sapient that being may be, and to consider otherwise is deeply, deeply stupid.

I'm sure there are quite a few people who would give their lives to save chimps and tigers from extinction. There actually are a lot of people who risk their lives protecting them from poachers, etc.

DorianGray wrote:
So you have records of Craftworlds fighting with humans against Chaos and yet the Imperium still has a kill on sight policy towards them?

What madness is this crap?

It's largely due to the existence of the Dark Eldar. Atrocities commited by them are no doubt often blamed on Craftworld Eldar by imperial leaders who don't differentiate between the two.

I understand why the IoM is the way it is. And it makes sense.

Still from my pov, it is wrong. Of course the IoM doesn't view itself as evil, but no one in 40k does... except the Dark Eldar, they love being evil.

Wow. I suggest you take a step back and breath, haha.

Xenoesis wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Non-human species are animals, whether sentient or not, and to think of it a murder is wrong, you cannot murder an animal, therefore it cannot be genocide, plain and simple.

 Deadshot wrote:
You CANNOT murder something that is not a human, as murder (homicide) is killing of people.

That's like Christian right-wingers saying you CANNOT marry someone of your own sex. Words are tools; they only mean what people think they should mean, and their use is always changing.

 Deadshot wrote:
at the end of the day, 1 human life is worth infinite numbers of non-human lives or AI, regardless of how sentient or sapient that being may be, and to consider otherwise is deeply, deeply stupid.

I'm sure there are quite a few people who would give their lives to save chimps and tigers from extinction. There actually are a lot of people who risk their lives protecting them from poachers, etc.

Murder is ny definition restricted to humans killing humans (homicide). And people who give their lives for animals waste their livesm

To be devils advocate here, I do believe in a universal morality that everyone will be held a countable for, we did not evolve from prilimates but we're created by a higher being, and humans are the "dominate " species on earth.....so being devil advocate here on the forum is being basic Christian .

But as for the 40k setting I could care less about how the humans are portrayed in the aetting. I play orks. I don't think my religious beliefs prevent me for enjoying the setting for what it is. Dave (I'm pretty sure that's his name) from miniwargameing is Christian and plays khorne.
I myself have my own setting I'm developing, it's predominately filled with aliens who have their own beliefs, religions, technology, and morality that conflict but have to couperate under a great threat.

It's fun to enjoy a Sci fi setting, it helps my own creativity, but I don't let it influence my own belief, nor do I let my belief spoil the fun of this game I enjoy.

Though I don't play iom, I still see the enjoyment in their stubborness born from a setting so grimdark to snuff out any hope for cooperation.

 Deadshot wrote:
Murder is in my definition restricted to humans killing humans (homicide). And people who give their lives for animals waste their livesm

OK, but what I'm saying is, the argument, "No, they're not murderous because killing eldar isn't murder," is based on a presupposition that for many people isn't valid. If you believe killing non-humans can't be murder, then the argument works. If you don't believe that, then it doesn't work.

As for me, I don't think I'm even being aberrant in saying that there have been, and are, many humans whose lives I care less about than my cat's.

 thegreatchimp wrote:

DorianGray wrote:
So you have records of Craftworlds fighting with humans against Chaos and yet the Imperium still has a kill on sight policy towards them?

What madness is this crap?

It's largely due to the existence of the Dark Eldar. Atrocities commited by them are no doubt often blamed on Craftworld Eldar by imperial leaders who don't differentiate between the two.

The Craftworlders are dangerously fickle, and only marginally more trustworthy than the scum of Commorragh. And like the Imperium of Man, they have plenty of blood on their hands. Imperial leadership knows the difference between the two, and the true nature of both. Therefore, they are treated like any other xeno species in the galaxy.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:
Imperial leadership knows the difference between the two, and the true nature of both.

Sure Eldar are fickle, but unlike the Dark Eldar, they're not evil. I'd say the majority of the imperium puts them all in the same boat . Obviously there are those that know the difference, but on the whole, we're talking about a society that is steeped in xenophobia and ignorance.

If you're familiar with Forgotten Realms / D&D you have the same situation with the Elves and the Drow. The Elves get hate and distrust from humans because Drow raids get blamed on them, and on the other hand the benevolence of the Elves often misguides humans into trusting Drow. Dark Eldar are essentially "Space Drow."

Honestly from the perspective of the IOM both Eldar and Dark Eldar are pretty evil. One group raids and tortures you and the other uses you as a meat shield and will try slaughtering varying amounts of your population.

And from the Eldar perspective the IoM is evil. If we start comparing perspectives then no one and everyone is evil. Except the Dark Eldar, those guys love being evil.

 Tyran wrote:
And from the Eldar perspective the IoM is evil. If we start comparing perspectives then no one and everyone is evil. Except the Dark Eldar, those guys love being evil.

Welcome to grimadark 40k... And its beautiful...

As for DE love being evil, this isn't quite so the case, DE mostly do it because it keep their souls lasting longer so they won't be taken by Slannesh, only few really love being "Evil".

That would most usually apply to Slannesh and the EC.They love ecstatic pain and inflicting it upon others a lot more than the amount of soul-fries in Commaragh.

The Dark Eldar could adopt the more neighbor friendly methods of the Craftworld Eldar. But no, they love being sadistic bastards.

As for Chaos, while I consider mortal followers to be mostly evil, the Chaos Gods and the Daemons are what they are. Slaanesh is ecstasy, pleasure and pain and will never be something else, it is its very nature. The same applies to the rest of the immortal and immaterial Chaos.

 Tyran wrote:
The Dark Eldar could adopt the more neighbor friendly methods of the Craftworld Eldar. But no, they love being sadistic bastards.

As for Chaos, while I consider mortal followers to be mostly evil, the Chaos Gods and the Daemons are what they are. Slaanesh is ecstasy, pleasure and pain and will never be something else, it is its very nature. The same applies to the rest of the immortal and immaterial Chaos.

Ah, theirs the problem. You perceive them to be evil, but they do not percieve themselves to be evil. To them its a way to preserve themselves and therefore a means to an end, and they may as well take some pleasure from it since those Xeno's never learned their lesson in the first place..

As for adopting "neighbor friendly"methods like the Craftworlds... They were Friendly? Friendly? You do realize that Craftworlds only ally themselves if it benefits the Craftworld? The main difference of why they both do what they do is because the Craftworlds are the psyker-end of the spectrum and see the future all the time, in addition they have soulstones which protect them from Slannesh. Commoragh-kin have no such luxury and found other methods to keep themselves surviving; The truly horrifying thing from our perspective is that they work. adding so much more grim dark to the setting which is loved by all.

By our perceptions of morality we perceive DE as sadist savages, but by that same logic the Craftworlds are a bunch of sociopaths. Its also one half of a story of a story we truely cannot judge due to the 41st millennium being vastly different to our ways of logic and moral grounds.

As for Slannesh, yes that could be said for the Daemons, but it really is a much different story in the CSM. Once that road started becoming more a path on twisted damnation, they couldn't have cared less. In ways the EC are just as "Evil" as the Night Lords with the exception that Night Lords know exactly what their doing, and just don't care whilst EC are under some delusion that their deity will grant them more pleasure-gifts from murdering millions.

 happygolucky wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
The Dark Eldar could adopt the more neighbor friendly methods of the Craftworld Eldar. But no, they love being sadistic bastards.

As for Chaos, while I consider mortal followers to be mostly evil, the Chaos Gods and the Daemons are what they are. Slaanesh is ecstasy, pleasure and pain and will never be something else, it is its very nature. The same applies to the rest of the immortal and immaterial Chaos.

Ah, theirs the problem. You perceive them to be evil, but they do not percieve themselves to be evil. To them its a way to preserve themselves and therefore a means to an end, and they may as well take some pleasure from it since those Xeno's never learned their lesson in the first place..

As for adopting "neighbor friendly"methods like the Craftworlds... They were Friendly? Friendly? You do realize that Craftworlds only ally themselves if it benefits the Craftworld? The main difference of why they both do what they do is because the Craftworlds are the psyker-end of the spectrum and see the future all the time, in addition they have soulstones which protect them from Slannesh. Commoragh-kin have no such luxury and found other methods to keep themselves surviving; The truly horrifying thing from our perspective is that they work. adding so much more grim dark to the setting which is loved by all.

By our perceptions of morality we perceive DE as sadist savages, but by that same logic the Craftworlds are a bunch of sociopaths. Its also one half of a story of a story we truely cannot judge due to the 41st millennium being vastly different to our ways of logic and moral grounds.

As for Slannesh, yes that could be said for the Daemons, but it really is a much different story in the CSM. Once that road started becoming more a path on twisted damnation, they couldn't have cared less. In ways the EC are just as "Evil" as the Night Lords with the exception that Night Lords know exactly what their doing, and just don't care whilst EC are under some delusion that their deity will grant them more pleasure-gifts from murdering millions.

It is neighbor friendly compared to what the Dark Eldar do.

And no, there are options for the Dark Eldar, but they don't care and they go out of their way to be as evil as possible to both the other races in the galaxy and to each other.

What are these options then?