Hi all,

As many of you have heard, Space Marines are getting a slew of new Psychic powers. There is one in particular that I myself am having a very hard time accepting. That power is the Geokinesis: Shifting Worldscape. The words "Jumped the Shark" keep repeating in my head LOL.

There has been a fair bit of discussion about these new powers, quite a lot of it has been actually very funny. No doubt many new Meme's will be born! But the humour aside, I thought I would ask the Dakka community their impressions. Obviously this new power impacts the game significantly on several levels. From breaking away from the traditional 'static battlefield', to a whole element of control over the game being decided by one player, to the inevitable ruins full of models being dropped and crashing across the table.

So I ask the following question. Will you play games with the new Geokinesis power Shifting Worldscape?

A simple Yes or No for the time being. It would be nice if you would share your reasoning too if you have the time.

For the sake of this thread, please no discussion about how you would change the rule. Let's just keep it to the basics.

I like the idea of it, and I can see the fun uses of it, though I (sadly) know that it will be abused whenever it is used by people :(

 Brennonjw wrote:
I like the idea of it, and I can see the fun uses of it, though I (sadly) know that it will be abused whenever it is used by people :(

Since when did min/maxing become abuse? Is playing well evil or something?

That being said, if they can feth around with my fortifications/tide wall, I'll be displeased greatly.

You know, 40k has taken so many ideas from good ole Warhammer Fantasy like this (I forgot the name of the shifting terrain spell). Look out sir, challenges, "magic" phase....Now that Fantasy is gone, I wonder where they will "playtest" the next new 40k rules from?

Yeah, I mean, its a crazy power, but its fun and unique. There are crazier powers in bundle.

Yeah this power basically seems tailor made to basically ruin games. "Oh, your objective is in that terrain piece...how about I just move that over to my side of the board and take your long range fire unit with it".

Doesnt sound like its going to be something that will encourage fun games. But people keep thinking massively broken stuff is fun...be it this, D weapons, formations, etc so...

Im just saying, floating cities of terrain sounds fun as fek to me! So many things can be done now, but the result of turn 1 charges via flying terrain and electric-slide model bouncing can be a bit OP.

Im so excite.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Yeah this power basically seems tailor made to basically rhin games. "Oh, your objective is in that terrain piece...how about I just move that over to my side of the board and take your long range fire unit with it".

Doesnt sound like its going to be something that will encourage fun games.

You say that, but then you Luke skywalker your first baneblade out of a lake and the lake comes with....... USE THE FORCE LUKE!

Have no idea what it does.

Well...the problem is that the player owning the Baneblade paid a whole lot of points for it and wants to use it, not just have it floated to thei opponent in a silver platter for them to destroy at will

I think these powers are just another step into turning 40k into a complete and utter farce. A hilarious farce but a farce nonetheless.

Part of me wants to glue a bastion onto a base molded so that the bastion is leaving a deep furrow in the ground.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Yeah this power basically seems tailor made to basically ruin games. "Oh, your objective is in that terrain piece...how about I just move that over to my side of the board and take your long range fire unit with it".

Doesnt sound like its going to be something that will encourage fun games. But people keep thinking massively broken stuff is fun...be it this, D weapons, formations, etc so...

Im pretty sure you have no permission to move the objective.

it probably falls off when you move the terrain.

Can fortifications be moved? I'm certain nobody would ever use an ageis defense line of it could be yanked 24 inches onto your opponent's deployment zone. And if there is terrain in the way can the building still be yanked the full 24 inches?

Just need someone to model a fortification as the Death Star (probably a count-as skyshield)

Put a death star on the Death Star (Dev cents with a libi conclave should work)

Then slowly move around the table turning Alderaan into asteroids.

“This battle station is now the ultimate power in the universe, I suggest we use it"

Are you asking if we'll use it, or if we'll play against people using it? I don't play Space Marines myself, but if my opponent wants to use it, it's a valid rule and I'll play against him. Besides, could be interesting.

I cant wait to have my Psyker become an earthbender. That sounds amazing. I need to paint a blue arrow on one of my Psyker's heads now.

Yeah. Right. We don`t need another gamebreaker in 40k. Especially something, that is complete mental like this.
Another nail in the coffin for 40k....

People saying this one thing ruins the game. hah, that is pretty rich.

This is just another step up the stairs of "ruining the game".

Remember when the psychic phase was ruining the game, what about fliers, or hullpoints, riptieds, superheavies, invisibility, summoning, allies, the new allies, formations, detachments, super detachments....

The list goes on...

This is a single power. If my opponent is going to invest enough librarians to reliably roll this power and form a strategy on it (and they still might not get the power) then go for it.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
People saying this one thing ruins the game. hah, that is pretty rich.

This is just another step up the stairs of "ruining the game".

Remember when the psychic phase was ruining the game, what about fliers, or hullpoints, riptieds, superheavies, invisibility, summoning, allies, the new allies, formations, detachments, super detachments....

The list goes on...

in many respects they have and there's a reason disconetent is higher than in previous editions.

This is a single power. If my opponent is going to invest enough librarians to reliably roll this power and form a strategy on it (and they still might not get the power) then go for it.

its a much more opportunistic power than some others. You dont need to really plan around it, if you dont get it fine, but if you do you can pretty much always abuse it if you do, and its not like lists that focus around psychic rolling for as many powers as possible and a using the specific one they want dont already exist and do amazingly well at it. Just because its not the *only* broken thing doesnt mean that its not also absurd itself.

What happens if a unit breaks coherency due to half of the people in said unit moving 24 inches?

I can't wait to see buildings become assault vehicles

If they're not all on the terrain, they all disembark as if it were a vehicle.

They're already assault capable, and this was something that people based a strategy around with the bunker with escape hatch.

 Jaxler wrote:
What happens if a unit breaks coherency due to half of the people in said unit moving 24 inches?

I can't wait to see buildings become assault vehicles

They will have to get back into coherency. There is already the possibility of coherency nightmares with multiwound units thanks to a khorne relic weapon in Wulfen. When a model takes an unsaved wound its removed from play. On a +4 it returns to the spot it was removed via deep strike. So a unit of say, 3 riptides could all deep strike out of coherency, one might mishap and stay in ongoing reserves, wtf would that do with coherency?

Watch out for speedy fast grass and trees!

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
What happens if a unit breaks coherency due to half of the people in said unit moving 24 inches?

I can't wait to see buildings become assault vehicles

They will have to get back into coherency. There is already the possibility of coherency nightmares with multiwound units thanks to a khorne relic weapon in Wulfen. When a model takes an unsaved wound its removed from play. On a +4 it returns to the spot it was removed via deep strike. So a unit of say, 3 riptides could all deep strike out of coherency, one might mishap and stay in ongoing reserves, wtf would that do with coherency?

Watch out for speedy fast grass and trees!

Again, units partially on the terrain disembark as if the terrain where a vehicle, using the edge as the hatch. So, if you don't want your models driven around the board, leave a guy sitting out of LOS and out of the cover.

Its an interesting power in concept except it can cause a few issues.
1. Boards with fixed terrain or pieces that can't easily be moved making moving the terrain impossible or terrible looking.
2. Using a big piece of terrain to move your army forward for a massive turn 1 assault.
3. This is to the determent of armies that rely on terrain to survive which is already something problematic with 40k.

If the whole board is a single piece of terria, does that mean you can push models off the end of it?

on the first point, the power does stop you from moving fixed terrain, though the way they word it is very weird (no surprise.) Honestly, I'm not worried about this, if only because geomancy doesn't seem worth rolling on other than to get this. All of the currently abused powers have other things in their discipline that are good (Sanctic has Sanctuary, Hammer hand, Vortex of DOOOOOOM! and sometimes gate, Biomancy has everything but hemorrhage and sometimes Smite, Telepathy has everything except maybe the Fearless power, ect.) I don't expect this to be used at most tournies, at least not with Librarius, fulmination and (depending on the army) Technomancy as options.

Don't bypass the language filter like this.
Reds8n

As I have said like 3 times, I agree. I'll be playing it that CSM can use the three not-librarius powers, and the others will be dolled out after some talk and look at the fluff. Orks will probably get fulmination and Technomancy, for example, what with weirdboyz constantly being electrocuted when their powers are on high, and the fact that there are atleast a few who would have put their skills to use for some meks. Not sure on anyone else for now.

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
What happens if a unit breaks coherency due to half of the people in said unit moving 24 inches?

I can't wait to see buildings become assault vehicles

They will have to get back into coherency. There is already the possibility of coherency nightmares with multiwound units thanks to a khorne relic weapon in Wulfen. When a model takes an unsaved wound its removed from play. On a +4 it returns to the spot it was removed via deep strike. So a unit of say, 3 riptides could all deep strike out of coherency, one might mishap and stay in ongoing reserves, wtf would that do with coherency?

Watch out for speedy fast grass and trees!

If any model can't be place, the unit suffers a mishap.

It's dumb but also funny. It has it's place like the other stupid stuff. What type of game are people gonna prefer to play...

*shrugs*

3 knight titans on a skyshield landing pad at deployment edge, librarius conclave as ally with tiggy rolling for geomancy, likely get shifting worldscape, teleport knights 24" closer in 1st player 1st turn, for knight dakka and t1 charge.
Against most lists, congrats, that's game, before opponent even shuffles their feet.

Oh and its not deepstrike/movement/reserve so no intercept on that either. and 4++ against what over-watch their will be, and possible +1 armor knights as well with that psych tree..

Since terrain and boards come in many shapes and sizes, not to mention bolted into the board, the manipulation of them by player means mid match in this way seems pretty dumb. Might be a fun mess once or twice, but a city fight board with a couple of psykers both happening to land 6's will get out hand, big time. :_D

Should atleast include a rough maximum size for the pieces affected.

Seems fine.

It's not even remotely the most powerful thing in that book.

 Meos wrote:
Since terrain and boards come in many shapes and sizes, not to mention bolted into the board, the manipulation of them by player means mid match in this way seems pretty dumb. Might be a fun mess once or twice, but a city fight board with a couple of psykers both happening to land 6's will get out hand, big time. :_D

Should atleast include a rough maximum size for the pieces affected.

Though I would pay to see that matchup.

Not going to bother playing against people who run on Geokinesis.

Not even because of the potential for abuse for winning, because the ruleset is pretty bollocks anyways as it is, but because this is really not how I picture the 40k universe with dudes flinging buildings at one another.
If I wanted to see that, I'd play The Force Unleashed thank you.

The power sounds awesome. I can't wait to play someone that uses it, especially watching it against those stupid pansies otherwise known as Tau!

This is worse than Fzorgle ever was by a long way. If you thought it was bad back in the day when that power used to give your opponent carte blanche to put his Cheeto-hands all over your models, think of how awesome you'll feel as he attempts to move that 4-story ruin with your metal Lord of Change balanced precariously at the top.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
This is worse than Fzorgle ever was by a long way. If you thought it was bad back in the day when that power used to give your opponent carte blanche to put his Cheeto-hands all over your models, think of how awesome you'll feel as he attempts to move that 4-story ruin with your metal Lord of Change balanced precariously at the top.

The Smurf player will simply insist that it's your fault for obviously placing your LoC in a bad position, where it could so easily be carelessly broken!

This power is hilarious, good but situational, randomly rolled, and is warp charge 3. You can also play against it by having your units leave a guy just behind the terrain piece so they can't drag you away with the forest, or staying behind other terrain so if they fling a piece up to your lines with a deathstar, they can't get it close enough to assault without having two libbies in two units both roll up and cast the power. (One to get your terrain piece out of the way, the other to send theirs towards you.)

Now there would need to be some GROUND rules (hehehe) about what happens with objectives and the like, but after those are set, I'd gladly play with/against the power.
In fact I'm probably going to challenge someone to a game where we both bring conclaves and guarantee pre-game that 1 Libby from each has it, because that game sounds awesome.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
This is worse than Fzorgle ever was by a long way. If you thought it was bad back in the day when that power used to give your opponent carte blanche to put his Cheeto-hands all over your models, think of how awesome you'll feel as he attempts to move that 4-story ruin with your metal Lord of Change balanced precariously at the top.

The Smurf player will simply insist that it's your fault for obviously placing your LoC in a bad position, where it could so easily be carelessly broken!

If they don't give you the courtesy of picking your models up first, tell them that they can't place it anywhere since they can't place the terrain within 1" of another piece and open ground is technically terrain

EDIT: Niv, that is an amazing idea and I'm gonna ask my friend if he wants to do it for the 4k game we're playing this week

To me the real star of the Geokinesis show is Phase Form. Friendly unit within 24" gets Move Through Cover, Ignores Cover, and doesn't need LoS to attack an unit. I know what my Lascannon Devastators are getting for Christmas!

I will laugh in the face of any Tau or Eldar player who balks at me using this power.

In a very friendly environment without TFGs, this would have to be the funniest power imaginable.

I can't wait for the ITC clarification/errata/houserule that comes out of this new Angels of Death and psychic cards ridiculousness. The furor and threads devoted to that will be the real spectacle.

 the_Armyman wrote:
I can't wait for the ITC clarification/errata/houserule that comes out of this new Angels of Death and psychic cards ridiculousness. The furor and threads devoted to that will be the real spectacle.

My expectation is that Shifting Worldscape will be banned entirely tbh, it's just too much of a hassle for long-form tournies...

I get the genuine concern about models being in danger if they take a roller coaster ride across the board, but I have this crazy 3 step solution:

1) Take the models off the terrain piece
2) Move the terrain piece
3) Put models back where they were on the terrain piece

At this point you can proceed with life.


If your concern is that it breaks the game or whatever, no. No it does not. Even the re-rolling saves power doesn't "break the game". Understanding how to tactically approach the game is what distinguishes people who think the game is broken from people who understand how to play the game.

If you can't kill a deathstar, ignore it. It's really not complicated. And anyone who is both reliably getting veil of time AND making good use of the re-roll (so something like 4++ or 3++ saves on the unit) is absolutely an expensive deathstar.


All that aside, I think it is a thematically awesome power.

Thanks to everyone for all the replies and points of view. So far it is a pretty close poll, with the Yes side slightly ahead. Since I started the poll and thread, I feel I should chime in with more detail about my perspective. I voted No in case anyone was wondering. And I voted that way for many reasons, but I am only going to touch on what I feel is the actual real world Physical Impact this new power has on the game.

The first thing I thought when I read the rule was WTF?? LOL. But my first serious thought was how I as a player always extend the courtesy of not touching my opponents models, without their express request; and even then I take the utmost care when moving them. However this power allows one player the option of moving an entire piece of terrain up to two feet around the board, without need the owning players consent (from a rules perspective). It goes without saying that in many games, models are sometimes placed in less than ideal conditions with respect to stability. We've all heard of the Wobbly Model Rule.

So my first thoughts were not regarding power levels, first turn charges, etc... but the simple possibility that the action of using Shifting Worldscape could cause catastrophic results in the case that someone's hand slips. I can't speak to what sorts of tables and terrain features you all play with, but I have seen some fairly sizeable and complex pieces in my time. This rule just seems extremely poorly thought out with regards to the actual logistics of moving terrain around after the game has begun.

How will your view of the game change after your opponent, or even yourself decides to move a multi level ruin across the board; only to have your 'embarked' squads fall off and possibly break. Ask yourself the following questions.

Would you start to reconsider placing models in certain terrain because of the possibility that your army could suffer real damage in the run of a game? A real world consequence impacting your imaginary world tactics.

Would you not use the power on an opponent because you might be afraid that doing so could potentially damage their models?

Would you change your approach to making your own terrain when considering Shifting Worldscape?

Would you change how you place terrain on the board before the game, either loading it up to limit the power, or opening it up to make it logistically easier to perform the necessary physical actions of moving terrain?

I don't feel I have even begun to scratch the surface of the implications that Shifting Worldscape brings to the table. And I really don't feel that GW considered them very thoughtfully either. Looking forward to reading more of your thoughts and perspectives.

 luke1705 wrote:
If your concern is that it breaks the game or whatever, no. No it does not. Even the re-rolling saves power doesn't "break the game". Understanding how to tactically approach the game is what distinguishes people who think the game is broken from people who understand how to play the game.

Yeah, you effing scrubs! Git gud.

 luke1705 wrote:
I get the genuine concern about models being in danger if they take a roller coaster ride across the board, but I have this crazy 3 step solution:

1) Take the models off the terrain piece
2) Move the terrain piece
3) Put models back where they were on the terrain piece

At this point you can proceed with life.

You make a very good point Luke. I'm only picking you out of the crowd because my last post was specifically about his issue.Your suggestion is very sensible and reasonable. And in most circumstances sensible and reasonable is the way to go. But...

However, this is not how I want to play the game. Games are already long enough without having to add effectivly another movement phase. This could be required several times over the course of the game, and if you have a large squad you may find it to be a significant time sink. Not to mention that there will inevitably be issues with keeping track of which model was where.

SpookyRuben wrote:
Ask yourself the following questions.

Would you start to reconsider placing models in certain terrain because of the possibility that your army could suffer real damage in the run of a game? A real world consequence impacting your imaginary world tactics.

Would you not use the power on an opponent because you might be afraid that doing so could potentially damage their models?

Would you change your approach to making your own terrain when considering Shifting Worldscape?

Would you change how you place terrain on the board before the game, either loading it up to limit the power, or opening it up to make it logistically easier to perform the necessary physical actions of moving terrain?

But that's all part of the fun! It adds an extra level of immersion to the game helping players to Forge the Narrative. You'll think twice about sending your men into harm's way, just like your Warlord would! And broken models are just another opportunity to engage in the best part of the Hhhobby - purchasing Games Workshop product!

I'm surprised they don't have a WC3 power that lets you smash your opponent's models. Hammer of the Emperor ftw!

SpookyRuben wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
I get the genuine concern about models being in danger if they take a roller coaster ride across the board, but I have this crazy 3 step solution:

1) Take the models off the terrain piece
2) Move the terrain piece
3) Put models back where they were on the terrain piece

At this point you can proceed with life.

You make a very good point Luke. I'm only picking you out of the crowd because my last post was specifically about his issue.Your suggestion is very sensible and reasonable. And in most circumstances sensible and reasonable is the way to go. But...

However, this is not how I want to play the game. Games are already long enough without having to add effectivly another movement phase. This could be required several times over the course of the game, and if you have a large squad you may find it to be a significant time sink. Not to mention that there will inevitably be issues with keeping track of which model was where.

I feel like you're really making a mountain out of a mole hill here. The most often result is that the models in the terrain piece will be not precariously balanced and you will simply move the terrain piece, or ask your opponent to move the terrain piece if his models are in it. If the models in the terrain are an issue because of precarious balancing or some other situation, you could simply move them off the terrain, keep them in the formation that they were in, and then replace them after the terrain has moved. That's gonna take like 20 extra seconds. And being that this power is a warp charge three, you will not see it cast over and over in the same turn. That is assuming they roll up the power at all.

And if you get into a really complicated terrain situation, you can just snap a picture with your phone.

It's not as ridiculous as a few of the warp charge two powers like invis or fortune, and it's not going to be incredibly useful all the time like those are as well. If this power was banned for any reason, then we should be taking a serious look at some of the other powers as well as some of the more ridiculous units. All it needs is a quick FAQ to clarify how it interacts with objectives really.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

It's not as ridiculous as a few of the warp charge two powers like invis or fortune, and it's not going to be incredibly useful all the time like those are as well. If this power was banned for any reason, then we should be taking a serious look at some of the other powers as well as some of the more ridiculous units.

Well, ideally events would have already done this. Alas, most really don't

But yes absolutely some of the more outrageous elements of the game should be curtailed and this power isn't unique amongst that.

So I posted this in the 'tactics' thread, but here's some cool options for the power:

1: Void shield generators that move with your army.
1a: Void Shield generators that abandon the enemy army to join yours.
2: Entire army on a Skyshield for mobile 4++.
3: Move terrain (Aegis?) in front of your army to force enemies to assault through cover.
4: Army embarked on an Aquila Strongpoint Assault Transport. Any hill or crater is now a 24" move assault transport, but you may as well do it in AV15 D-Blast toting style.
5: Make your enemies move as if they're on a treadmill. Cycle their assault units towards the backfield every turn.
6: Just move the terrain 6" in front of him every turn. Make his infantry spend the entire game embarking & disembarking from that terrain piece to chase the objective.
7: Is an enemy unit safe behind some BLOS terrain? Not for long!
8: Is your unit looking down the barrel of some Riptides? Not for long - move that BLOS piece in.
9: Pull your opponent's models in to first turn charge range with you.
10: Too lazy to go grab objectives? Bring objectives to you!

Just doing any of these things once in a game would be game-winning. Even just having the ability to use the power is game-changing; your opponent will spend the entire game worrying that he can't move models on to terrain, he can't place objectives in terrain, he can't hide behind terrain. Even if he plays 'sensibly' by leaving one model of a shooty unit off the back of a hill so the unit can't be brought to you on a silver platter, that means he's effectively playing that unit down one model the entire game.

It being WC3 is a little bit of a downside... if the librarius conclave didn't already exist. The only saving grace is that you need to roll for it and powers 0, 1, 2, and 5 are all pretty lame.

As I said in the other thread, many of you seem to be assuming that the moved terrain is put down in the same orientation. What do you do if your opponent turns the hill your unit is standing on upside down?

Trasvi wrote:
So I posted this in the 'tactics' thread, but here's some cool options for the power:

1: Void shield generators that move with your army.
1a: Void Shield generators that abandon the enemy army to join yours.
2: Entire army on a Skyshield for mobile 4++.
3: Move terrain (Aegis?) in front of your army to force enemies to assault through cover.
4: Army embarked on an Aquila Strongpoint Assault Transport. Any hill or crater is now a 24" move assault transport, but you may as well do it in AV15 D-Blast toting style.
5: Make your enemies move as if they're on a treadmill. Cycle their assault units towards the backfield every turn.
6: Just move the terrain 6" in front of him every turn. Make his infantry spend the entire game embarking & disembarking from that terrain piece to chase the objective.
7: Is an enemy unit safe behind some BLOS terrain? Not for long!
8: Is your unit looking down the barrel of some Riptides? Not for long - move that BLOS piece in.
9: Pull your opponent's models in to first turn charge range with you.
10: Too lazy to go grab objectives? Bring objectives to you!

Just doing any of these things once in a game would be game-winning. Even just having the ability to use the power is game-changing; your opponent will spend the entire game worrying that he can't move models on to terrain, he can't place objectives in terrain, he can't hide behind terrain. Even if he plays 'sensibly' by leaving one model of a shooty unit off the back of a hill so the unit can't be brought to you on a silver platter, that means he's effectively playing that unit down one model the entire game.

It being WC3 is a little bit of a downside... if the librarius conclave didn't already exist. The only saving grace is that you need to roll for it and powers 0, 1, 2, and 5 are all pretty lame.

Again, being randomly rolled and wc3, you're not going to see this power being thrown around like candy. If they do get it, it will just come once per turn from the conclave IF there's something useful to do with it. I highly disagree that doing one of these things once will win a game. (The void shield counter is really good, but I think void shields deserve a hit anyway.)

-we don't know how objectives interact with it yet. You may just leave the objective there on the ground. Needs clarification.
-riptides don't care unless your blos terrain piece is 12" long and moderately tall. They can move and fire with table wide range. Also they are jet pack, so they could just hop on or over the thing.

-your armies are going to be more than just 1 unit. Average 1850's have 15-20, with some sporting near 40. With you getting one cast of shift per turn, you're not going to be breaking his back with just that power anytime soon.

-it can be played around. One dude moves out of the terrain and the unit is now immune to being hurled anywhere. Anyone who sees you roll up the power will do this.

-libbies are entirely killable. If the power could really mess with you, make the Libby a priority target. Culexus says hi.

-randomly rolled means you can't really build around the power, especially since there's no Loth equivalent that can guarantee it. If you set up a deathstar so that you can fling the forest they start in into charge range, some games will just have you marching to your death with the other crappy geo powers. Consistency is important in competitive games. You need things that are going to perform 6 games straight.

The only way I'll consider this power to be a bit over the top is if tourneys rule objectives to move with the terrain. If not, I'd only ever give the discipline a nod to try and counter a VSG. (Or have some fun in a funsies game.)

Lol I am going to have a field day dispelling that with all my psyker dice if you dont like it or think its going to be too meta then build khorn or more psykers, or just improve your deny the witch in general

What happens with it when a single model unit is like 10% out of the terrain? What about 50%? 90%?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
What happens with it when a single model unit is like 10% out of the terrain? What about 50%? 90%?

I would assume they would be considered "in the terrain" much like how MC's get toe-in-cover for doing exactly the same. Just my assumption though.

Reavas wrote:
Lol I am going to have a field day dispelling that with all my psyker dice if you dont like it or think its going to be too meta then build khorn or more psykers, or just improve your deny the witch in general

??
How often do you ever see people dispelling 3 WC powers? You need 16 Warp Charges to have a 50% chance of dispelling a 3 WC power when it is cast. That leaves pretty much Daemons, and maybe GK.
There is no way to 'improve your deny the witch in general' apart from adding more psykers to your army. Something that 6 factions can't do at all, and another 3-4 factions would put themselves at severe detriment to do so. 15 Psychic dice represents at very significant investment for most forces. Adamantium will, collars of khorne or whatever, don't work on this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Again, being randomly rolled and wc3, you're not going to see this power being thrown around like candy. If they do get it, it will just come once per turn from the conclave IF there's something useful to do with it. I highly disagree that doing one of these things once will win a game. (The void shield counter is really good, but I think void shields deserve a hit anyway.)

Lib Conclave + Tiggy. Harness on 2+ with re-rolls. 3 successes is easy.

-we don't know how objectives interact with it yet. You may just leave the objective there on the ground. Needs clarification.

We won't get it and theres no particular reason to think that it wouldn't move. Leave that up to whatever third party FAQ you favour.

-riptides don't care unless your blos terrain piece is 12" long and moderately tall. They can move and fire with table wide range. Also they are jet pack, so they could just hop on or over the thing.

Oh great, your opponent just put a riptide on terrain for you!
Of course, riptides aren't the only thing with firepower. Anything that needs to shoot at you (ie, about half the things in the game) can be hampered by this power going off. You can make non-relentless models move and snapshot, or fast vehicles lose a weapon...

your armies are going to be more than just 1 unit. Average 1850's have 15-20, with some sporting near 40. With you getting one cast of shift per turn, you're not going to be breaking his back with just that power anytime soon.

And seeing as most armies contain some units that are more important than others, you don't need to cast this on every rhino, but on an Imperial Knight every now and then would be a different story.
Its a bit like invisibility. No, you can't invisible your entire army - but that doesn't make the power worthless. You can still hide the elements of your army that are about to get shot at; you can throw up a screen in front of a deadly but slow enemy unit

-it can be played around. One dude moves out of the terrain and the unit is now immune to being hurled anywhere. Anyone who sees you roll up the power will do this.

Sure, terrain can be played around. But it means you're ceding control to your opponent. He gets to decide where you place objectives (even if you can't move them, they can't be deep inside a ruin that he can throw you off of. He gets to decide how you deploy. He gets to take control of your bunkers and void shields and skyshields and AEGIS. He decides where you can move your army during the game; and even if you manage to play perfectly with positioning your own models, he is still in control of what he does with his own models on his own terrain.
You can play around it in exactly the same way that you can play around terrain - but we know that having terrain on the table is a game changer and good players will take advantage of it.

libbies are entirely killable. If the power could really mess with you, make the Libby a priority target. Culexus says hi.

If only they could join some kind of Super Friends deathstar to put a bunch of ablative T5 re-rollable 3++ save wounds between them and danger.

randomly rolled means you can't really build around the power, especially since there's no Loth equivalent that can guarantee it. If you set up a deathstar so that you can fling the forest they start in into charge range, some games will just have you marching to your death with the other crappy geo powers. Consistency is important in competitive games. You need things that are going to perform 6 games straight.

As I said, this is the saving grace. Even still, Tiggy has a 75% chance to get the power on his own; with another 3 Lv2 Librarians you're up to a 95% chance to get it.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

SpookyRuben wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
I get the genuine concern about models being in danger if they take a roller coaster ride across the board, but I have this crazy 3 step solution:

1) Take the models off the terrain piece
2) Move the terrain piece
3) Put models back where they were on the terrain piece

At this point you can proceed with life.

You make a very good point Luke. I'm only picking you out of the crowd because my last post was specifically about his issue.Your suggestion is very sensible and reasonable. And in most circumstances sensible and reasonable is the way to go. But...

However, this is not how I want to play the game. Games are already long enough without having to add effectivly another movement phase. This could be required several times over the course of the game, and if you have a large squad you may find it to be a significant time sink. Not to mention that there will inevitably be issues with keeping track of which model was where.

I feel like you're really making a mountain out of a mole hill here. The most often result is that the models in the terrain piece will be not precariously balanced and you will simply move the terrain piece, or ask your opponent to move the terrain piece if his models are in it. If the models in the terrain are an issue because of precarious balancing or some other situation, you could simply move them off the terrain, keep them in the formation that they were in, and then replace them after the terrain has moved. That's gonna take like 20 extra seconds. And being that this power is a warp charge three, you will not see it cast over and over in the same turn. That is assuming they roll up the power at all.

And if you get into a really complicated terrain situation, you can just snap a picture with your phone.

It's not as ridiculous as a few of the warp charge two powers like invis or fortune, and it's not going to be incredibly useful all the time like those are as well. If this power was banned for any reason, then we should be taking a serious look at some of the other powers as well as some of the more ridiculous units. All it needs is a quick FAQ to clarify how it interacts with objectives really.

Didn't there used to exist a spell for fantasy where you tossed a ping pong ball. I'm pretty sure it was some WD stuff, maybe some weird ass scenario. Anyways, terrific idea! What about shifting worldscape where instead of measuring you literally get to fling the terrain about, anything hit gets squished and removed from the game (and probably your collection too).

I play against Tau, SMs with GSF, Eldar Scatterbike/Wraithknight/Warp Spider/Triptide lists... so yes.

Y'know, once upon a time during 5th edition, where balance issues were still pretty glaring, things at least used to seem somewhat reasonable. Sure, sometimes a tank would survive several penetrating hits, some armies could fit way too many tanks/transports into their lists, MCs were sorta gimped by all the S8+, AP2-1 that people compulsively crammed into their lists, and a certain Spiritual Liege was dancing naked and ablaze through the fluff...but aside from Warp Quake winning against DS armies turn 1 it still seemed like there was almost an honest attempt and sane rules decisions buried somewhere under everything.

Back then I would've looked at this psychic power and said 'Nope. Nuh uh. No way.'

However, this is the grim darkness of 7th Edition. Where a thousand orks, imperial guardsmen, and chaos worshippers join the Sister of Battle in being sacrificed every day to Phil Kelly. These are times of giant mecha erasing inconsequential infantry squads from tables, 2+ rerollable saves, vehicles feeling more afraid of a storm of S6 shorts than a Lascannon, and of D weapon flame templates.

Somewhere along the way the game already got well past the Patrick Star 'we'll take the city and push it somewhere else' level of crazy. And, somehow, I've accepted that if I seek a random pick up game I might have to deal with Super Heavies, troops armed with Scatter Lasers, and nonsensical nostalgic references to this thing called 'Chaos' which apparently used to exist. The odd flying assault-vehicle forest is hardly going to be my chief source of consternation.

That forest assault vehicle actually might make for a fantastic basis for an ent marine army. Do dryad heads fit on SM bodies?

Before I assume GW has written the worst rules I may have ever seen from them, is there more to the terrain moving power than just "Move a terrain piece 24" (models in take DT test)"?

Because I have so many questions if there isn't a detailed FAQ explaining all the possible ways this will eventually be abused or parts the rules don't even begin to cover.

Its not only Geokinesis: 6 – WC3 24″. Move a piece of terrain by 24″, including models in it. (force a dangerous terrain test).

There are other new spells which can be game changing.

Fulmination: 5 – WC2 blessing, 18″. Move target unit by 18″.
Fulmination: 6 – WC2 blessing, 24″. Swap target unit with the psyker’s unit. Can work on allies and enemies alike.
Technomancy: 4- WC2 blessing at 24″, vehicule unit. +1 AV to all sides OR non vehicule unit +1T.
Librarius: 6 – WC2 1 enemy unit, 24″. -2 to invul saves (min 6+). This is the new nullzone.

My big question is:

WHY ARE THESE POWERS FOR SPACE MARINES ONLY?

What about "earth based psychic powers" or "technology based psychic powers" is space mariney? The Orks would LOVE a power set that lets them move terrain around! It would be awesome to field a guard psychic squad with technomancy for some real anti tank.

But noooo, we've got to just shovel more gak onto the faction that needs it the absolute least.

This isn't normal stupidity.

This is advanced stupidity.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
I'm surprised they don't have a WC3 power that lets you smash your opponent's models. Hammer of the Emperor ftw!

Well you can't put all your best ideas out there all at once. You gotta space that gak out, give them something else to buy later.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Its not only Geokinesis: 6 – WC3 24″. Move a piece of terrain by 24″, including models in it. (force a dangerous terrain test).

There are other new spells which can be game changing.

Fulmination: 5 – WC2 blessing, 18″. Move target unit by 18″.
Fulmination: 6 – WC2 blessing, 24″. Swap target unit with the psyker’s unit. Can work on allies and enemies alike.
Technomancy: 4- WC2 blessing at 24″, vehicule unit. +1 AV to all sides OR non vehicule unit +1T.
Librarius: 6 – WC2 1 enemy unit, 24″. -2 to invul saves (min 6+). This is the new nullzone.

As bad as the new nullzone is, my Tzeentch are far, far more infuriated by the Blessing that gives a 24" bubble of Ad Will + 4++ vs. all Witchfires. You know, the very type of powers that pretty much 75%+ of my entire army's shooting is based on?!

Apparently random amounts of BS3/S6 psychic shooting is OP, so Marines desperately need a way to ignore it.

Well, personally I think that Orks and horde nids and other infantry based armies that depend on cover were far to OP and it's about time they got hit with the nerf stick.

Space Marines are really lacking in power and options so it's about time they got something interesting and new to play around with.

I welcome our new Terrain Shifting overlords.

(It reminds me a lot of High Magic and the Lore of Athel Loren though from Warhammer 5th. You could move forests around or march hills across the battlefield with your mages. Those were the crazy days.)

This is highly disappointing, as I was hoping the shifts in GW's attitude would expand into reigning in 40k a bit from the crazy levels it's reached lately. These new spells (which as others have pointed out, make little sense for Space Marines other than them being the chosen ones) make the game even more insane than its current ludicrous levels. Which, for a game that cost hundreds to play, seems illogical.

Shifting Worldscape will be hilarious. Can't wait to try it out

Lots of silly overreaction to this, to be frank. It's only a game folks.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Shifting Worldscape will be hilarious. Can't wait to try it out

Lots of silly overreaction to this, to be frank. It's only a game folks.

Sure it's a game... Where one side is continuously given heaps of shiny new toys, and half of the rest of us get what amounts to a wet fart on a stick in return.

Just for once I wish people would try and play for a week with a 'have-not' army's book.
Losing is fine, it's part of the game. It's the "never having a chance to begin with because you spent $1000 on the wrong army" part that makes the game 0 fun.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Its not only Geokinesis: 6 – WC3 24″. Move a piece of terrain by 24″, including models in it. (force a dangerous terrain test).

There are other new spells which can be game changing.

Fulmination: 5 – WC2 blessing, 18″. Move target unit by 18″.
Fulmination: 6 – WC2 blessing, 24″. Swap target unit with the psyker’s unit. Can work on allies and enemies alike.
Technomancy: 4- WC2 blessing at 24″, vehicule unit. +1 AV to all sides OR non vehicule unit +1T.
Librarius: 6 – WC2 1 enemy unit, 24″. -2 to invul saves (min 6+). This is the new nullzone.

Fulmination 5 & 6 are ALLIES ONLY
5 is basically Telekinesis "levitation" but better.
6 Is swap with an ally unit, can be cool, but hardly game breaking. You can't swap with vehicles.

harkequin wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Its not only Geokinesis: 6 – WC3 24″. Move a piece of terrain by 24″, including models in it. (force a dangerous terrain test).

There are other new spells which can be game changing.

Fulmination: 5 – WC2 blessing, 18″. Move target unit by 18″.
Fulmination: 6 – WC2 blessing, 24″. Swap target unit with the psyker’s unit. Can work on allies and enemies alike.
Technomancy: 4- WC2 blessing at 24″, vehicule unit. +1 AV to all sides OR non vehicule unit +1T.
Librarius: 6 – WC2 1 enemy unit, 24″. -2 to invul saves (min 6+). This is the new nullzone.

Fulmination 5 & 6 are ALLIES ONLY
5 is basically Telekinesis "levitation" but better.
6 Is swap with an ally unit, can be cool, but hardly game breaking. You can't swap with vehicles.

I don't see anything in the description of Fulmination 6 that says "allied unit".

Honestly, only Librarius should be SM only. The other factions with psykers should have access to at least some of the other three. Don't know what a Tyranid would be doing with Technomancy or if Geokinesis would really be fluffy for Orks, but the other disciplines would fit just fine. I'm gonna allow my non-SM opponents to use these. My FLGS will make our own table for who can use what discipline.

I actually will be using these new powers, if only to reap the tears of my opponents.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
People saying this one thing ruins the game. hah, that is pretty rich.

This is just another step up the stairs of "ruining the game".

Remember when the psychic phase was ruining the game, what about fliers, or hullpoints, riptieds, superheavies, invisibility, summoning, allies, the new allies, formations, detachments, super detachments....

The list goes on...

This is a single power. If my opponent is going to invest enough librarians to reliably roll this power and form a strategy on it (and they still might not get the power) then go for it.

Haters gonna hater. Embrace the change. Tzeentch commands you


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EnTyme wrote:
To me the real star of the Geokinesis show is Phase Form. Friendly unit within 24" gets Move Through Cover, Ignores Cover, and doesn't need LoS to attack an unit. I know what my Lascannon Devastators are getting for Christmas!

Oh snap..... This on Skyahmmers with the 24" -swapfling power WILL BE GROSS

GW found a way to sell lots of copies of the new Psychic Powers deck. And alienate more of their customers in the process. Good job, GW.

Trasvi wrote:
So I posted this in the 'tactics' thread, but here's some cool options for the power:

1: Void shield generators that move with your army.
1a: Void Shield generators that abandon the enemy army to join yours.
2: Entire army on a Skyshield for mobile 4++.
3: Move terrain (Aegis?) in front of your army to force enemies to assault through cover.
4: Army embarked on an Aquila Strongpoint Assault Transport. Any hill or crater is now a 24" move assault transport, but you may as well do it in AV15 D-Blast toting style.
5: Make your enemies move as if they're on a treadmill. Cycle their assault units towards the backfield every turn.
6: Just move the terrain 6" in front of him every turn. Make his infantry spend the entire game embarking & disembarking from that terrain piece to chase the objective.
7: Is an enemy unit safe behind some BLOS terrain? Not for long!
8: Is your unit looking down the barrel of some Riptides? Not for long - move that BLOS piece in.
9: Pull your opponent's models in to first turn charge range with you.
10: Too lazy to go grab objectives? Bring objectives to you!

Just doing any of these things once in a game would be game-winning. Even just having the ability to use the power is game-changing; your opponent will spend the entire game worrying that he can't move models on to terrain, he can't place objectives in terrain, he can't hide behind terrain. Even if he plays 'sensibly' by leaving one model of a shooty unit off the back of a hill so the unit can't be brought to you on a silver platter, that means he's effectively playing that unit down one model the entire game.

It being WC3 is a little bit of a downside... if the librarius conclave didn't already exist. The only saving grace is that you need to roll for it and powers 0, 1, 2, and 5 are all pretty lame.

Holy gak... im so glad this wasnt dropped right before adepticon........I ran the aquilla strongpoint with D-cannon and grav cents in on building and Dkok in the second. It was feking silly. I was overjoyed to have a flying carpet mountain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Likan Wolfsheim wrote:
Y'know, once upon a time during 5th edition, where balance issues were still pretty glaring, things at least used to seem somewhat reasonable. Sure, sometimes a tank would survive several penetrating hits, some armies could fit way too many tanks/transports into their lists, MCs were sorta gimped by all the S8+, AP2-1 that people compulsively crammed into their lists, and a certain Spiritual Liege was dancing naked and ablaze through the fluff...but aside from Warp Quake winning against DS armies turn 1 it still seemed like there was almost an honest attempt and sane rules decisions buried somewhere under everything.

Back then I would've looked at this psychic power and said 'Nope. Nuh uh. No way.'

However, this is the grim darkness of 7th Edition. Where a thousand orks, imperial guardsmen, and chaos worshippers join the Sister of Battle in being sacrificed every day to Phil Kelly. These are times of giant mecha erasing inconsequential infantry squads from tables, 2+ rerollable saves, vehicles feeling more afraid of a storm of S6 shorts than a Lascannon, and of D weapon flame templates.

Somewhere along the way the game already got well past the Patrick Star 'we'll take the city and push it somewhere else' level of crazy. And, somehow, I've accepted that if I seek a random pick up game I might have to deal with Super Heavies, troops armed with Scatter Lasers, and nonsensical nostalgic references to this thing called 'Chaos' which apparently used to exist. The odd flying assault-vehicle forest is hardly going to be my chief source of consternation.

THIS GUY RIGHT HERE>>>>>> He gets it. Back in the days of flying circuses (which are back again) and IG parking lots with camo this and that.... ahh good times my lad good times. 5th was almost impossibly hard to deal with, but now that we have knights going invisible, a flying terrain assault machine doesnt seem that scary. Theres still overwatch in 6th and 7th and literally that changed everything. BA arent top tier anymore and there is a little bit more safety to models. These noobs need to QQ, they never lived through the dark days of 5th ed with its jacked up phases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
That forest assault vehicle actually might make for a fantastic basis for an ent marine army. Do dryad heads fit on SM bodies?

Inspired. Thanks ya dick...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Shifting Worldscape will be hilarious. Can't wait to try it out

Lots of silly overreaction to this, to be frank. It's only a game folks.

Sure it's a game... Where one side is continuously given heaps of shiny new toys, and half of the rest of us get what amounts to a wet fart on a stick in return.

Just for once I wish people would try and play for a week with a 'have-not' army's book.
Losing is fine, it's part of the game. It's the "never having a chance to begin with because you spent $1000 on the wrong army" part that makes the game 0 fun.

Are you a DE player?

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Lots of silly overreaction to this, to be frank. It's only a game folks.

If it's so inconsequential I guess there's no reason for you to waste any more of your time posting about it then. Cheers!

Wait, does it move objective markers around that have been placed in terrain?

Because if so, that's silly.

Oh you're playing gunline? Let me just move this Victory Point over here where you can't get it.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Lots of silly overreaction to this, to be frank. It's only a game folks.

If it's so inconsequential I guess there's no reason for you to waste any more of your time posting about it then. Cheers!

That's his legitimate opinion. The thread is a poll and asks for peoples opinions. I'm glad he shared his. No need to bash it just because it's different of yours. You know, free exchange of opinions and stuff, else this thread should be called "Shifting worldscape, compiled complaints".

Also, I actually do agree with him. It's my freaking hobby so i play with the rules I, and my friend, want. If we feel the new powers are OP or dumb we just don't use them. Despite seeing the issues with the rules i still don't see why it's such a big deal i just see it as something new and fun to try out in games. Then again, I could not give less of a damn about tournament and competitive play since tabletop games are in my books a rather idiotic format for such due to the actual games being such a small part of the hobby at large. To me it feels no different from competing in an PnP RPG (an utterly ridiculous idea to me).

Objectives are ignored for all purposes of interveneing models and such. You can stand on them ect ect. Theyre pretty static. So im going to say no. The Objective is more like a waypoint. A fixed target. So I would records its X/Y coordinates on the table, move the terrain then place the OBJ back on those coordinates.

 Meos wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Lots of silly overreaction to this, to be frank. It's only a game folks.

If it's so inconsequential I guess there's no reason for you to waste any more of your time posting about it then. Cheers!

That's his legitimate opinion. The thread is a poll and asks for peoples opinions. I'm glad he shared his. No need to bash it just because it's different of yours. You know, free exchange of opinions and stuff, else this thread should be called "Shifting worldscape, compiled complaints".

Also, I actually do agree with him. It's my freaking hobby so i play with the rules I, and my friend, want. If we feel the new powers are OP or dumb we just don't use them. Despite seeing the issues with the rules i still don't see why it's such a big deal i just see it as something new and fun to try out in games. Then again, I could not give less of a damn about tournament and competitive play since tabletop games are in my books a rather idiotic format for such due to the actual games being such a small part of the hobby at large. To me it feels no different from competing in an PnP RPG (an utterly ridiculous idea to me).

A pen and paper RPG is typically designed for a coop experience out of the box. A wargame is generally, by definition, an adversarial, competitive (on at least some level) experience. Conflating the two would be to misunderstand the basic premise.

And gaming forms a huge part of the experience, these are game pieces after all, with huge expensive rulebooks. Wanting that experience to be something other than a mishmashed clusterfeth or a one sided curbstomp on a roytine basis is not at all an unreasonable expectation from a tabletop wargame, regardless of casual vs competitive play.

This sort of absurd thing worked in Rogue Trader...but the game also had a 3rd party GM then and was far more akin to an RPG than the current game which fundamentally still operates as an adversarial engagement.

 Meos wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Lots of silly overreaction to this, to be frank. It's only a game folks.

If it's so inconsequential I guess there's no reason for you to waste any more of your time posting about it then. Cheers!

That's his legitimate opinion. The thread is a poll and asks for peoples opinions. I'm glad he shared his. No need to bash it just because it's different of yours. You know, free exchange of opinions and stuff, else this thread should be called "Shifting worldscape, compiled complaints".

He took the time out of his busy schedule to dismiss people's concerns as "silly overreaction" to what is "only a game". My legitimate opinion is that his assertion is either foolish or trolling.

Fulmination: 5 – WC2 blessing, 18″. Move target unit by 18″.
Fulmination: 6 – WC2 blessing, 24″. Swap target unit with the psyker’s unit. Can work on allies and enemies alike.
Technomancy: 4- WC2 blessing at 24″, vehicule unit. +1 AV to all sides OR non vehicule unit +1T.
Librarius: 6 – WC2 1 enemy unit, 24″. -2 to invul saves (min 6+). This is the new nullzone.

Eeeek
AV15 land raiders. Take THAT Nids and Orks

 Ratius wrote:

Fulmination: 5 – WC2 blessing, 18″. Move target unit by 18″.
Fulmination: 6 – WC2 blessing, 24″. Swap target unit with the psyker’s unit. Can work on allies and enemies alike.
Technomancy: 4- WC2 blessing at 24″, vehicule unit. +1 AV to all sides OR non vehicule unit +1T.
Librarius: 6 – WC2 1 enemy unit, 24″. -2 to invul saves (min 6+). This is the new nullzone.

Eeeek
AV15 land raiders. Take THAT Nids and Orks

AV 15 Land Raiders? Much too slow. Take an AV15 AV16 Macro-cannon Aquila Strongpoint. Now you're riding in style.

 xSoulgrinderx wrote:
Objectives are ignored for all purposes of interveneing models and such. You can stand on them ect ect. Theyre pretty static. So im going to say no. The Objective is more like a waypoint. A fixed target. So I would records its X/Y coordinates on the table, move the terrain then place the OBJ back on those coordinates.

Agreed, that's how I would play it, that's I would expect the ITC to rule it. The real question becomes with The Relic. It can be picked up by models and dropped. Therefore could you pick it up, cast this and move 24"? Can you move it without being picked up?

 xSoulgrinderx wrote:
Objectives are ignored for all purposes of interveneing models and such. You can stand on them ect ect. Theyre pretty static. So im going to say no. The Objective is more like a waypoint. A fixed target. So I would records its X/Y coordinates on the table, move the terrain then place the OBJ back on those coordinates.

For the most part, I agree with you here. Objectives are points on the battlefield.

Now in a more narrative game, or with opponent’s consent, I could see it going the other way as well. It’s more fun to try to get your soldiers to the comm station, and keep them there long enough to make the transmission (aka hold it at the end of the game). In a scenario like that, it’s not that the objective happens to be located right next to the com relay piece of terrain that’s important. If you can move the com to you, that gets the job done just as well.

But in the stock book missions where you are just tossing numbered poker chips on the table to represent points, that’s all they are: points. And should stay put, even if the table shifts.

IMHO, YMMV, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:
The real question becomes with The Relic. It can be picked up by models and dropped. Therefore could you pick it up, cast this and move 24"? Can you move it without being picked up?

The rules are pretty clear that you can’t move more the 6” with the relic, and if you do, you drop it.

You could move terrain that your opponent is in to force him to drop it, but I don’t think you could use it yourself to cheat the 6” rule. Of course, the 6” is per phase, so this would let you get more distance out of the pychic one.

 Da Boss wrote:
Well, personally I think that Orks and horde nids and other infantry based armies that depend on cover were far to OP and it's about time they got hit with the nerf stick.

Space Marines are really lacking in power and options so it's about time they got something interesting and new to play around with.

I welcome our new Terrain Shifting overlords.

(It reminds me a lot of High Magic and the Lore of Athel Loren though from Warhammer 5th. You could move forests around or march hills across the battlefield with your mages. Those were the crazy days.)

Have a look at Sylvanth. Durthu can summon woods and Treemen can teleport between woods.

 Nevelon wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
The real question becomes with The Relic. It can be picked up by models and dropped. Therefore could you pick it up, cast this and move 24"? Can you move it without being picked up?

The rules are pretty clear that you can’t move more the 6” with the relic, and if you do, you drop it.

You could move terrain that your opponent is in to force him to drop it, but I don’t think you could use it yourself to cheat the 6” rule. Of course, the 6” is per phase, so this would let you get more distance out of the pychic one.

Well shucks. Still nifty, but there goes my idea of warping the Relic away.

 EnTyme wrote:

harkequin wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Its not only Geokinesis: 6 – WC3 24″. Move a piece of terrain by 24″, including models in it. (force a dangerous terrain test).

There are other new spells which can be game changing.

Fulmination: 5 – WC2 blessing, 18″. Move target unit by 18″.
Fulmination: 6 – WC2 blessing, 24″. Swap target unit with the psyker’s unit. Can work on allies and enemies alike.
Technomancy: 4- WC2 blessing at 24″, vehicule unit. +1 AV to all sides OR non vehicule unit +1T.
Librarius: 6 – WC2 1 enemy unit, 24″. -2 to invul saves (min 6+). This is the new nullzone.

Fulmination 5 & 6 are ALLIES ONLY
5 is basically Telekinesis "levitation" but better.
6 Is swap with an ally unit, can be cool, but hardly game breaking. You can't swap with vehicles.

I don't see anything in the description of Fulmination 6 that says "allied unit".

Honestly, only Librarius should be SM only. The other factions with psykers should have access to at least some of the other three. Don't know what a Tyranid would be doing with Technomancy or if Geokinesis would really be fluffy for Orks, but the other disciplines would fit just fine. I'm gonna allow my non-SM opponents to use these. My FLGS will make our own table for who can use what discipline.

The fulmination ones are blessings, you can't cast blessings on enemies. They don't have any special permission to cast it on enemies either.
Don't see very many invisible stormsurges rolling around do you?

It's a nifty trick, but compared to dark wolf scars, whom don't need this or most of the powers from this update (other than
Veil of Time, perhaps?) or Centurion Stars, whom would eother already have ignores cover from being white scars or rolling Divination to pick up Prescience, I don't really see a need to roll on Geokinesis, over, say, Fulmination or Librarius.

Its a neat trick, but not game smashingly awful like everyone is making it out to be.

 Crazyterran wrote:
It's a nifty trick, but compared to dark wolf scars, whom don't need this or most of the powers from this update (other than
Veil of Time, perhaps?) or Centurion Stars, whom would eother already have ignores cover from being white scars or rolling Divination to pick up Prescience, I don't really see a need to roll on Geokinesis, over, say, Fulmination or Librarius.

Its a neat trick, but not game smashingly awful like everyone is making it out to be.

Much agreed. Maybe once every few games that you roll up the power it may open up a winning move, but a situational warp charge 3 power should be powerful when the situation comes up.

 Crazyterran wrote:
It's a nifty trick, but compared to dark wolf scars, whom don't need this or most of the powers from this update (other than
Veil of Time, perhaps?) or Centurion Stars, whom would eother already have ignores cover from being white scars or rolling Divination to pick up Prescience, I don't really see a need to roll on Geokinesis, over, say, Fulmination or Librarius.

Its a neat trick, but not game smashingly awful like everyone is making it out to be.

Geokinesis' version of Ignores Cover also allows you to ignore LOS restrictions...so there's that.

That's true, but I would argue that you would almost always have an ideal target in line of sight, unless you managed to Bork it all up.

And rerolls to hit are pretty great, since being an Ultramarine I only get one reliable one! :p

 Jaxler wrote:


Since when did min/maxing become abuse? Is playing well evil or something?

Since before it started? Playing well is a separate thing not connected to trying to break the game by list building.

If GW did proper playtesting-in other words, hiring people specifically to break the game in order to find this so-called "abuse" before the gak goes to print-then people wouldn't be able to break the game in the first place, or it would be significantly more difficult to do.

Don't shame players for walking through a door that GW left wide open.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Meos wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Lots of silly overreaction to this, to be frank. It's only a game folks.

If it's so inconsequential I guess there's no reason for you to waste any more of your time posting about it then. Cheers!

That's his legitimate opinion. The thread is a poll and asks for peoples opinions. I'm glad he shared his. No need to bash it just because it's different of yours. You know, free exchange of opinions and stuff, else this thread should be called "Shifting worldscape, compiled complaints".

He took the time out of his busy schedule to dismiss people's concerns as "silly overreaction" to what is "only a game". My legitimate opinion is that his assertion is either foolish or trolling.

Yes, but he did not advocate you to stop sharing your opinion. Something you did to him. You see, there is a difference between a "i disagree" and "you should not be allowed to talk" kind of rhetoric. The latter is rude and does not promote anything but animosity and doesn't belong in a civil discussion.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Meos wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Lots of silly overreaction to this, to be frank. It's only a game folks.

If it's so inconsequential I guess there's no reason for you to waste any more of your time posting about it then. Cheers!

That's his legitimate opinion. The thread is a poll and asks for peoples opinions. I'm glad he shared his. No need to bash it just because it's different of yours. You know, free exchange of opinions and stuff, else this thread should be called "Shifting worldscape, compiled complaints".

Also, I actually do agree with him. It's my freaking hobby so i play with the rules I, and my friend, want. If we feel the new powers are OP or dumb we just don't use them. Despite seeing the issues with the rules i still don't see why it's such a big deal i just see it as something new and fun to try out in games. Then again, I could not give less of a damn about tournament and competitive play since tabletop games are in my books a rather idiotic format for such due to the actual games being such a small part of the hobby at large. To me it feels no different from competing in an PnP RPG (an utterly ridiculous idea to me).

A pen and paper RPG is typically designed for a coop experience out of the box. A wargame is generally, by definition, an adversarial, competitive (on at least some level) experience. Conflating the two would be to misunderstand the basic premise.

And gaming forms a huge part of the experience, these are game pieces after all, with huge expensive rulebooks. Wanting that experience to be something other than a mishmashed clusterfeth or a one sided curbstomp on a roytine basis is not at all an unreasonable expectation from a tabletop wargame, regardless of casual vs competitive play.

This sort of absurd thing worked in Rogue Trader...but the game also had a 3rd party GM then and was far more akin to an RPG than the current game which fundamentally still operates as an adversarial engagement.

You are right, i made a gak comparison. And i whole heartedly agree with you in the fact that one should in fact be able to count on somewhat a fair game when wanting to play a tabletop war game. I guess i just am a bit less troubled by it due to having a different type of community i play with. Not all have that, and i understand they need at least some form of regulating setting. I mean they could equally well ask me why i'm not just playing with self made rules to begin with.

 Meos wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Meos wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Lots of silly overreaction to this, to be frank. It's only a game folks.

If it's so inconsequential I guess there's no reason for you to waste any more of your time posting about it then. Cheers!

That's his legitimate opinion. The thread is a poll and asks for peoples opinions. I'm glad he shared his. No need to bash it just because it's different of yours. You know, free exchange of opinions and stuff, else this thread should be called "Shifting worldscape, compiled complaints".

He took the time out of his busy schedule to dismiss people's concerns as "silly overreaction" to what is "only a game". My legitimate opinion is that his assertion is either foolish or trolling.

Yes, but he did not advocate you to stop sharing your opinion. Something you did to him. You see, there is a difference between a "i disagree" and "you should not be allowed to talk" kind of rhetoric. The latter is rude and does not promote anything but animosity and doesn't belong in a civil discussion.

Firstly, he felt compelled to pop in here just to call everyone else's opinions "silly". How is that not promoting animosity?

And where did I say he should not be allowed to talk? He belittled the opinions of others by saying it's "only a game" - the implication being we should all feel foolish for having such strong opinions about something so inconsequential. That argument in an of itself is hypocritical - if it's so unimportant that we all shouldn't care, why do you care so much that you're spending time belittling other people's opinions about it (but only if they disagree with you of course)?

Im looking forward to putting a whole army on a skyshield and launching into my opponents deploy zone turn 1. Like an entire wraith host with D scythes and a libby conclave poding in to avoid and turn 1 counters.

Doesn't help that Loth gets all the new trees too.

Oh well, let the stupidity roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swampmist wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
I can't wait for the ITC clarification/errata/houserule that comes out of this new Angels of Death and psychic cards ridiculousness. The furor and threads devoted to that will be the real spectacle.

My expectation is that Shifting Worldscape will be banned entirely tbh, it's just too much of a hassle for long-form tournies...

The big problem Im hearing is that you have to move the piece with the enemy models still in the same place, because if you take them off and replace them it can be a big deal. Whatever its ITC, where the biggest scum bag wins as long as you have a special email letting you cheat and you get to be an exploitive dick with zero consequence.

 Mechanical Crow wrote:
Im looking forward to putting a whole army on a skyshield and launching into my opponents deploy zone turn 1. Like an entire wraith host with D scythes and a libby conclave poding in to avoid and turn 1 counters.

Doesn't help that Loth gets all the new trees too.

Oh well, let the stupidity roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swampmist wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
I can't wait for the ITC clarification/errata/houserule that comes out of this new Angels of Death and psychic cards ridiculousness. The furor and threads devoted to that will be the real spectacle.

My expectation is that Shifting Worldscape will be banned entirely tbh, it's just too much of a hassle for long-form tournies...

The big problem Im hearing is that you have to move the piece with the enemy models still in the same place, because if you take them off and replace them it can be a big deal. Whatever its ITC, where the biggest scum bag wins as long as you have a special email letting you cheat and you get to be an exploitive dick with zero consequence.

Where in Loths Master Psyker special rule that allows him to pick from the new trees? Emails aren't permission, as those are easy to fake. I do they even have an email for this, regardless.

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Mechanical Crow wrote:
Im looking forward to putting a whole army on a skyshield and launching into my opponents deploy zone turn 1. Like an entire wraith host with D scythes and a libby conclave poding in to avoid and turn 1 counters.

Doesn't help that Loth gets all the new trees too.

Oh well, let the stupidity roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swampmist wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
I can't wait for the ITC clarification/errata/houserule that comes out of this new Angels of Death and psychic cards ridiculousness. The furor and threads devoted to that will be the real spectacle.

My expectation is that Shifting Worldscape will be banned entirely tbh, it's just too much of a hassle for long-form tournies...

The big problem Im hearing is that you have to move the piece with the enemy models still in the same place, because if you take them off and replace them it can be a big deal. Whatever its ITC, where the biggest scum bag wins as long as you have a special email letting you cheat and you get to be an exploitive dick with zero consequence.

Where in Loths Master Psyker special rule that allows him to pick from the new trees? Emails aren't permission, as those are easy to fake. I do they even have an email for this, regardless.

Its right in angels of death.

All librarians with the space marine faction get the new trees in addition to any they already know. Hard to get around that til forge world says something.

And as for the special emails Im referring to LVO and Adepticon both being won by individuals that had emails with rulings that know one else knew about.

There's no permission for Loth, since his Master Psyker rule is separate from what Psychic Powers Librarians have access to.

Unless is Master Psyker rule is updated, he's not allowed to pick from any of the new trees. Rolling, however, he is allowed to do.

 Crazyterran wrote:
There's no permission for Loth, since his Master Psyker rule is separate from what Psychic Powers Librarians have access to.

Unless is Master Psyker rule is updated, he's not allowed to pick from any of the new trees. Rolling, however, he is allowed to do.

I didn't read it like that at first but yeah I think you're right. Shame since geokinesis might have the best grouping of 3 powers (for Centstar at least). Back to rolling like a pleb or having Loth generate invis.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Meos wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Meos wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Lots of silly overreaction to this, to be frank. It's only a game folks.

If it's so inconsequential I guess there's no reason for you to waste any more of your time posting about it then. Cheers!

That's his legitimate opinion. The thread is a poll and asks for peoples opinions. I'm glad he shared his. No need to bash it just because it's different of yours. You know, free exchange of opinions and stuff, else this thread should be called "Shifting worldscape, compiled complaints".

He took the time out of his busy schedule to dismiss people's concerns as "silly overreaction" to what is "only a game". My legitimate opinion is that his assertion is either foolish or trolling.

Yes, but he did not advocate you to stop sharing your opinion. Something you did to him. You see, there is a difference between a "i disagree" and "you should not be allowed to talk" kind of rhetoric. The latter is rude and does not promote anything but animosity and doesn't belong in a civil discussion.

Firstly, he felt compelled to pop in here just to call everyone else's opinions "silly". How is that not promoting animosity?

And where did I say he should not be allowed to talk? He belittled the opinions of others by saying it's "only a game" - the implication being we should all feel foolish for having such strong opinions about something so inconsequential. That argument in an of itself is hypocritical - if it's so unimportant that we all shouldn't care, why do you care so much that you're spending time belittling other people's opinions about it (but only if they disagree with you of course)?

I now agree on another point of his. You really should relax.

He never told you to spend your time better than to discuss the topic. He said that in his opinion the discussion is overreaction, which whether true or not is just an opinion. He also said that it's "just a game" a statement that is true both literally and in any other way imaginable. He never said people should not participate in the discussion. You did. No one is being a hypocrite, just you being rude.

Why i care of others opinions? Simple, i like open discussion, which has been good here. I dislike people who go into personal attack against other in an attempt to shut down the discussion and promote their own opinion. The fine line here being drawn at the personal attack by commenting the private life of someone else.

 Meos wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Meos wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Meos wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Lots of silly overreaction to this, to be frank. It's only a game folks.

If it's so inconsequential I guess there's no reason for you to waste any more of your time posting about it then. Cheers!

That's his legitimate opinion. The thread is a poll and asks for peoples opinions. I'm glad he shared his. No need to bash it just because it's different of yours. You know, free exchange of opinions and stuff, else this thread should be called "Shifting worldscape, compiled complaints".

He took the time out of his busy schedule to dismiss people's concerns as "silly overreaction" to what is "only a game". My legitimate opinion is that his assertion is either foolish or trolling.

Yes, but he did not advocate you to stop sharing your opinion. Something you did to him. You see, there is a difference between a "i disagree" and "you should not be allowed to talk" kind of rhetoric. The latter is rude and does not promote anything but animosity and doesn't belong in a civil discussion.

Firstly, he felt compelled to pop in here just to call everyone else's opinions "silly". How is that not promoting animosity?

And where did I say he should not be allowed to talk? He belittled the opinions of others by saying it's "only a game" - the implication being we should all feel foolish for having such strong opinions about something so inconsequential. That argument in an of itself is hypocritical - if it's so unimportant that we all shouldn't care, why do you care so much that you're spending time belittling other people's opinions about it (but only if they disagree with you of course)?

I now agree on another point of his. You really should relax.

He never told you to spend your time better than to discuss the topic. He said that in his opinion the discussion is overreaction, which whether true or not is just an opinion. He also said that it's "just a game" a statement that is true both literally and in any other way imaginable. He never said people should not participate in the discussion. You did. No one is being a hypocrite, just you being rude.

Why i care of others opinions? Simple, i like open discussion, which has been good here. I dislike people who go into personal attack against other in an attempt to shut down the discussion and promote their own opinion. The fine line here being drawn at the personal attack by commenting the private life of someone else.

I didn't attack him personally. I attacked his argument as borderline trolling. Because it was.

Hi All,

OP here, some of the recent post haven't really been on topic regarding the question. So... if we could come back to the conversation at hand that would be great.

Everyone's comments are welcome; about the topic.

I have been learning a lot reading through the topic myself. I have certainly noticed that there seems to be a real distinction regarding how folks feel about the general expectation about Power Level with 40k right now. On one side there seems to be a group that is very accepting of the fact that GW has a regular tendancy to go 'over the top' with regards to some new stuff being put out recently. On the other side there seems to be a group who feel that this trend is detrimental to the game. Both are valid, however it has given me better perspective on those who voted Yes.

I will share another aspect of Shifting Worldscape that does bother me about his new power; and it has been mentioned already. Obviously through our discussion here, and in other threads, there are clearly some very grey areas with respect to how the rule is worded. And I think that most everyone could agree that in all likelihood not a lot of thought was given to the consequences of introducing this power. I personally enjoy playing the game, not having to stop play to have a long chat with my opponent about how to interpret a rule. And I feel that this particular psychic power is going to be debated a great deal; specifically with regards to how it is to be played.

The other thing that bothers me as a player is that Shifting Worldscape does introduce a very real, and I feel significant, change in the games paradigm. Static terrain has been a feature of the game in all the time I have played (although reading here it has made an appearance in Fantasy). The idea that my oppenent can 'steal my Aegis Defence Line, or turn my bunker 180 degrees making it effectively useless, and my personal favorite the Flying Assault Bastion, is not cool. I feel that introducing such a change via a single new psychic power (for a single Faction) with very little explanation is very careless on the part of GW. Games evolve and change over time, that is acceptable. However this change leaves a sour taste in my mouth, not because it introduces change, but because it introduces such dramatic change with little or no explanation. It certainly does not fit any fluff I have ever read in 40k lore, nor does it even appear to match any particular factions theme. The Flying Assault Bastion for example pretty much bends my willful suspension of disbelief to the breaking point; and that's saying a lot in the 40K universe LOL.

Anyway, just a few more of my own thoughts to add to the discussion.

Doesn't fit any fluff you've read for 40k? Have you not read anything with a single Psyker in it?

If we can handle Magnus shifting between small and mountainous size and Dak'ir carving starships in half, we can handle terrain moving, in fluff terms.

It's broken, of course, but that is due to its game effects only.

There are certain unwritten ground rules about what things are supposed to be moved in the course of the game and by whom. Among them: you don't move your opponent's models and you don't move the terrain. This power breaks those rules. That's my biggest problem with it.

I stand corrected on Dak'ir. Magnus being the size of a mountain though? I know he could alter his size, but I don't recall him being Mountain sized.

Regardless, the examples you present are specific moments in a story that happen for a dramatic plot event. I would contend that it does not represent what is 'normal' with respect to psychic powers. As much as we can speak about 'normal' regarding imaginary stuff LOL.

Perhaps I should have been more clear, when looking over the fluff for 40k there are lots of psyker's, however world altering powers are relegated to a few, not many. To me being able to fling buildings, mountian's, rivers, forests, and fortress' would represent the most rare and powerful psyker's.

I play Necrons . I'm gonna have fun with this power .

Maybe when ITC nerfs the completely broken spells I'll have a go vs them, but spess murrenz already get so many toys to counter basically anything and everything, they REALLY don't need to have a op phy phase too.

SpookyRuben wrote:
I stand corrected on Dak'ir. Magnus being the size of a mountain though? I know he could alter his size, but I don't recall him being Mountain sized.

Regardless, the examples you present are specific moments in a story that happen for a dramatic plot event. I would contend that it does not represent what is 'normal' with respect to psychic powers. As much as we can speak about 'normal' regarding imaginary stuff LOL.

Perhaps I should have been more clear, when looking over the fluff for 40k there are lots of psyker's, however world altering powers are relegated to a few, not many. To me being able to fling buildings, mountian's, rivers, forests, and fortress' would represent the most rare and powerful psyker's.

And to REALLY show that, it is a WC3 power on a ML2 dude.

This power can single handedly destroy Maelstrom. Your opponent has a 20 man Ob Sec warrior brick on an objective in a Ruin? Just move them halfway across the table. Broadsides in a Ruin? Right into the teeth of your Thunderwolves. Ork Mek Guns hiding in terrain? Lol no cover for you.

Ya this power is poorly thought out and just plain stupid from a mechanical perspective. You do not allow people to move your models, and you sure as hell dont let them move them halfway across the fething board.

So i would ask my opponent to please re roll 6s in Geomancy if i played against someone who used this, as the power is just plain busted.

New rule: any terrain feature placed within range of a Culexus mishaps.

 Grimmor wrote:
This power can single handedly destroy Maelstrom. Your opponent has a 20 man Ob Sec warrior brick on an objective in a Ruin? Just move them halfway across the table. Broadsides in a Ruin? Right into the teeth of your Thunderwolves. Ork Mek Guns hiding in terrain? Lol no cover for you.

Ya this power is poorly thought out and just plain stupid from a mechanical perspective. You do not allow people to move your models, and you sure as hell dont let them move them halfway across the fething board.

So i would ask my opponent to please re roll 6s in Geomancy if i played against someone who used this, as the power is just plain busted.

I suspect the ruling on it will be that you cannot move objectives other than the relic. Otherwise its going to be extra stupid when the marine player has all the objectives together with his unkillable unit sitting on top of them.

 Mechanical Crow wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:
This power can single handedly destroy Maelstrom. Your opponent has a 20 man Ob Sec warrior brick on an objective in a Ruin? Just move them halfway across the table. Broadsides in a Ruin? Right into the teeth of your Thunderwolves. Ork Mek Guns hiding in terrain? Lol no cover for you.

Ya this power is poorly thought out and just plain stupid from a mechanical perspective. You do not allow people to move your models, and you sure as hell dont let them move them halfway across the fething board.

So i would ask my opponent to please re roll 6s in Geomancy if i played against someone who used this, as the power is just plain busted.

I suspect the ruling on it will be that you cannot move objectives other than the relic. Otherwise its going to be extra stupid when the marine player has all the objectives together with his unkillable unit sitting on top of them.

Actually Grimmor isn't taking about moving the objective. He is referring to the fact that the unit moves with the terrain. In this case 'away from the objective'. The objective stays behind (at least that seems to be the general consensus regarding the objectives relative to the terrain).

He makes a good point though, 24" is a rather long way for a unit to foot slog. In many cases most infantry units probably average that distance over the course of the game if you consider a mix of open ground, difficult ground and not running every turn. I would say that using this power 'as is' could be very useful in the last turn of an Eternal War mission, where VP's are tallied at the end of the game, unless your opponent intentionally leaves some models in the unit outside the terrain.

SpookyRuben wrote:
Actually Grimmor isn't taking about moving the objective. He is referring to the fact that the unit moves with the terrain. In this case 'away from the objective'. The objective stays behind (at least that seems to be the general consensus regarding the objectives relative to the terrain).

He makes a good point though, 24" is a rather long way for a unit to foot slog. In many cases most infantry units probably average that distance over the course of the game if you consider a mix of open ground, difficult ground and not running every turn. I would say that using this power 'as is' could be very useful in the last turn of an Eternal War mission, where VP's are tallied at the end of the game, unless your opponent intentionally leaves some models in the unit outside the terrain.

Correct. Objective Markers arent an actual thing in game, they just represent something, so they cant move. So if you have an Objective on a ruin and some dudes are claiming it, they will get chucked halfway across the map and the Objective stays where it was. Its not cool.

However the Terrain must stop within 1 inch of other models or terrain so that prevents at least a few shenanigans, but it doesnt stop the fact that this just hosed multiple people in Maelstrom games.

Edit: It gets worse when you realize that every Army of the Imperium has access to this because of the Librarius Conclave.

I'd play against it in friendly, fun games with my friends. I think it could be cool as hell both from a game standpoint and a reason to make some new terrain (Finally an excuse!).

However I would not like it in a competitive environment because people would probably take a Librarius Conclave and just screw with everything on the table.

 Crazyterran wrote:
It's a nifty trick, but compared to dark wolf scars, whom don't need this or most of the powers from this update (other than
Veil of Time, perhaps?) or Centurion Stars, whom would eother already have ignores cover from being white scars or rolling Divination to pick up Prescience, I don't really see a need to roll on Geokinesis, over, say, Fulmination or Librarius.

Its a neat trick, but not game smashingly awful like everyone is making it out to be.

Yep you called it. Fulmination actually has the most powerful spell. Electrodisplacement - 24 inch unit swap whilst retaining assault ability. This ability is actually game breaking.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
It's a nifty trick, but compared to dark wolf scars, whom don't need this or most of the powers from this update (other than
Veil of Time, perhaps?) or Centurion Stars, whom would eother already have ignores cover from being white scars or rolling Divination to pick up Prescience, I don't really see a need to roll on Geokinesis, over, say, Fulmination or Librarius.

Its a neat trick, but not game smashingly awful like everyone is making it out to be.

Yep you called it. Fulmination actually has the most powerful spell. Electrodisplacement - 24 inch unit swap whilst retaining assault ability. This ability is actually game breaking.

No its not. You get one unit in a perfect charge location. Good for you. Is it very very good? Yes, yes it is, but its not game breaking because there are now several ways to get turn 1 charges.

Shifting Worldscape lets you with the board. Hell in Capture the Relic it could be argued that the Relic moves with the terrain, so if that Relic is on Terrain you can just win Turn 1. Also if you have dudes in a Ruin (and most armies will) your opponent gets to chuck them around the map and theres nothing you can do about it because the ability doesnt target them. So no bonus to Deny the Witch from having a Psyker or Adamatium Will, the only way to stop it with any reliability is a Culexus.

It gets worse if multiple Psykers have it as now they can just box your army in Ruins and put all of your dudes next to each other where one Apocalyptic Blast can kill them all. GG go home.

 Grimmor wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
It's a nifty trick, but compared to dark wolf scars, whom don't need this or most of the powers from this update (other than
Veil of Time, perhaps?) or Centurion Stars, whom would eother already have ignores cover from being white scars or rolling Divination to pick up Prescience, I don't really see a need to roll on Geokinesis, over, say, Fulmination or Librarius.

Its a neat trick, but not game smashingly awful like everyone is making it out to be.

Yep you called it. Fulmination actually has the most powerful spell. Electrodisplacement - 24 inch unit swap whilst retaining assault ability. This ability is actually game breaking.

No its not. You get one unit in a perfect charge location. Good for you. Is it very very good? Yes, yes it is, but its not game breaking because there are now several ways to get turn 1 charges.

Shifting Worldscape lets you with the board. Hell in Capture the Relic it could be argued that the Relic moves with the terrain, so if that Relic is on Terrain you can just win Turn 1. Also if you have dudes in a Ruin (and most armies will) your opponent gets to chuck them around the map and theres nothing you can do about it because the ability doesnt target them. So no bonus to Deny the Witch from having a Psyker or Adamatium Will, the only way to stop it with any reliability is a Culexus.

It gets worse if multiple Psykers have it as now they can just box your army in Ruins and put all of your dudes next to each other where one Apocalyptic Blast can kill them all. GG go home.

Seriously why are people still trying to push for objective movement.

There is NO permission to move objectives. the only ways to move relics is to be holding it by a unit. it additionally cannot ever move more than 6" otherwise it pops off anyway.

 Desubot wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
It's a nifty trick, but compared to dark wolf scars, whom don't need this or most of the powers from this update (other than
Veil of Time, perhaps?) or Centurion Stars, whom would eother already have ignores cover from being white scars or rolling Divination to pick up Prescience, I don't really see a need to roll on Geokinesis, over, say, Fulmination or Librarius.

Its a neat trick, but not game smashingly awful like everyone is making it out to be.

Yep you called it. Fulmination actually has the most powerful spell. Electrodisplacement - 24 inch unit swap whilst retaining assault ability. This ability is actually game breaking.

No its not. You get one unit in a perfect charge location. Good for you. Is it very very good? Yes, yes it is, but its not game breaking because there are now several ways to get turn 1 charges.

Shifting Worldscape lets you with the board. Hell in Capture the Relic it could be argued that the Relic moves with the terrain, so if that Relic is on Terrain you can just win Turn 1. Also if you have dudes in a Ruin (and most armies will) your opponent gets to chuck them around the map and theres nothing you can do about it because the ability doesnt target them. So no bonus to Deny the Witch from having a Psyker or Adamatium Will, the only way to stop it with any reliability is a Culexus.

It gets worse if multiple Psykers have it as now they can just box your army in Ruins and put all of your dudes next to each other where one Apocalyptic Blast can kill them all. GG go home.

Seriously why are people still trying to push for objective movement.

There is NO permission to move objectives. the only ways to move relics is to be holding it by a unit. it additionally cannot ever move more than 6" otherwise it pops off anyway.

Its why i said "argued". I wouldnt argue that, but some people would.

Its the gift that keeps on giving isnt it :/

I don't like it.

In casual games it will be hilarious. In tournaments it will be FAQ'd so as to not be useable.

 SickSix wrote:
In casual games it will be hilarious. In tournaments it will be FAQ'd so as to not be useable.

Yah it's a non-starter for tournaments. This is one of the los blockers from the last tournament I ran. I could see a few problems....

Welp, this all sounds hilariously stupid.
I guess I can just CTA ally a librarius conclave, and pile my genestealer cult into an aquila strongpoint in the shape of a giant limo.

Even better when both players do it, and we can just drive our big idiotships around the battlefield. Firing full broadside into the enemy before staging a boarding action.

That sounds pretty fun actually.

Arson Fire wrote:
Welp, this all sounds hilariously stupid.
I guess I can just CTA ally a librarius conclave, and pile my genestealer cult into an aquila strongpoint in the shape of a giant limo.

Even better when both players do it, and we can just drive our big idiotships around the battlefield. Firing full broadside into the enemy before staging a boarding action.

That sounds pretty fun actually.

I fail to see a problem with this.

Arson Fire wrote:
Welp, this all sounds hilariously stupid.
I guess I can just CTA ally a librarius conclave, and pile my genestealer cult into an aquila strongpoint in the shape of a giant limo.

Even better when both players do it, and we can just drive our big idiotships around the battlefield. Firing full broadside into the enemy before staging a boarding action.

That sounds pretty fun actually.

See, if this is what we are doing im making an Ork Battleship and filling it with Lootas, cuz that would be fun. In any sort of serious match though, it gets crazy fast.

 Grimmor wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
It's a nifty trick, but compared to dark wolf scars, whom don't need this or most of the powers from this update (other than
Veil of Time, perhaps?) or Centurion Stars, whom would eother already have ignores cover from being white scars or rolling Divination to pick up Prescience, I don't really see a need to roll on Geokinesis, over, say, Fulmination or Librarius.

Its a neat trick, but not game smashingly awful like everyone is making it out to be.

Yep you called it. Fulmination actually has the most powerful spell. Electrodisplacement - 24 inch unit swap whilst retaining assault ability. This ability is actually game breaking.

No its not. You get one unit in a perfect charge location. Good for you. Is it very very good? Yes, yes it is, but its not game breaking because there are now several ways to get turn 1 charges.

Shifting Worldscape lets you with the board. Hell in Capture the Relic it could be argued that the Relic moves with the terrain, so if that Relic is on Terrain you can just win Turn 1. Also if you have dudes in a Ruin (and most armies will) your opponent gets to chuck them around the map and theres nothing you can do about it because the ability doesnt target them. So no bonus to Deny the Witch from having a Psyker or Adamatium Will, the only way to stop it with any reliability is a Culexus.

It gets worse if multiple Psykers have it as now they can just box your army in Ruins and put all of your dudes next to each other where one Apocalyptic Blast can kill them all. GG go home.

Seriously why are people still trying to push for objective movement.

There is NO permission to move objectives. the only ways to move relics is to be holding it by a unit. it additionally cannot ever move more than 6" otherwise it pops off anyway.

Its why i said "argued". I wouldnt argue that, but some people would.

Which in turn is a prime example of how most of these rules complaints go down. People make up nightmare scenarios and builds that no sane people would like to play with, or in worst case, like here, even is an faulty interpretation of the rules fit to cause extra problems. Then they proceed throw their miniatures out the window saying the game is trash and take themselves to the forums with pitchforks in hand. Whatever happened to the rule of cool, i remember that the rulebooks used to have an intro text about how you should always agree on what is ok and what is not when the rules were unclear. Have we really become such a bunch of degenerates that we like to just play a war game to piss off our friends? I doubt that.

 Meos wrote:

Which in turn is a prime example of how most of these rules complaints go down. People make up nightmare scenarios and builds that no sane people would like to play with, or in worst case, like here, even is an faulty interpretation of the rules fit to cause extra problems. Then they proceed throw their miniatures out the window saying the game is trash and take themselves to the forums with pitchforks in hand. Whatever happened to the rule of cool, i remember that the rulebooks used to have an intro text about how you should always agree on what is ok and what is not when the rules were unclear. Have we really become such a bunch of degenerates that we like to just play a war game to piss off our friends? I doubt that.

No, but if i go to a Tournament im not playing my firends. Im playing people i dont know and may never see again. So quite a few people would use this power in that context. I wouldnt, but then again im not the kind of person who shows up with 3 Wraithknights (or their equivalents).

On top of this, 40k has vague, often poorly written, rules. While many of us know that an Objective remains where you placed it on the board, some people may believe that it would move with the terrain. These people are wrong, but that wont stop them from arguing the point.

In any event this Power is still breaking one of the unwritten rules of TT Wargaming "Thou shall not move the other persons models"

 Meos wrote:
Which in turn is a prime example of how most of these rules complaints go down. People make up nightmare scenarios and builds that no sane people would like to play with, or in worst case, like here, even is an faulty interpretation of the rules fit to cause extra problems. Then they proceed throw their miniatures out the window saying the game is trash and take themselves to the forums with pitchforks in hand. Whatever happened to the rule of cool, i remember that the rulebooks used to have an intro text about how you should always agree on what is ok and what is not when the rules were unclear. Have we really become such a bunch of degenerates that we like to just play a war game to piss off our friends? I doubt that.

"Rule of cool", "playing among friends" and the usual "beer & pretzels" are fine and all that, but still far from a valid excuse for the terrible state of 40k rules. Specially considering how much GW charges for them.

My biggest issue with this and this is from a marine player is it doesn't feel like a loyalist power. Shifting around the battlefield reeks of chaos and I would rather that CSM had gotten this. I personally don't intend to take it.

Korinov wrote:

 Meos wrote:
Which in turn is a prime example of how most of these rules complaints go down. People make up nightmare scenarios and builds that no sane people would like to play with, or in worst case, like here, even is an faulty interpretation of the rules fit to cause extra problems. Then they proceed throw their miniatures out the window saying the game is trash and take themselves to the forums with pitchforks in hand. Whatever happened to the rule of cool, i remember that the rulebooks used to have an intro text about how you should always agree on what is ok and what is not when the rules were unclear. Have we really become such a bunch of degenerates that we like to just play a war game to piss off our friends? I doubt that.

"Rule of cool", "playing among friends" and the usual "beer & pretzels" are fine and all that, but still far from a valid excuse for the terrible state of 40k rules. Specially considering how much GW charges for them.

Exalted for Truth

HoundsofDemos wrote:My biggest issue with this and this is from a marine player is it doesn't feel like a loyalist power. Shifting around the battlefield reeks of chaos and I would rather that CSM had gotten this. I personally don't intend to take it.

Bless you you glorious bastard....

I have to agree with Demos on this. Messing around with the battlefield seems more like a Chaos thing to do than a Loyalist one, and I have to ask, did we REALLY need 4 new tables all to ourselves?

 War Kitten wrote:
I have to agree with Demos on this. Messing around with the battlefield seems more like a Chaos thing to do than a Loyalist one, and I have to ask, did we REALLY need 4 new tables all to ourselves?

Nah, Chaos is more about inflicting copious amounts of self-harm in exchange for little or no benefit.

 War Kitten wrote:
I have to agree with Demos on this. Messing around with the battlefield seems more like a Chaos thing to do than a Loyalist one, and I have to ask, did we REALLY need 4 new tables all to ourselves?

Nope, not, one, bit. And I play marines. More and more in a 30k setting because of silly crap like this, I miss 40k being a skirmish game instead of apoc sillyness. Marines aren't hurting.

 Korinov wrote:

 Meos wrote:
Which in turn is a prime example of how most of these rules complaints go down. People make up nightmare scenarios and builds that no sane people would like to play with, or in worst case, like here, even is an faulty interpretation of the rules fit to cause extra problems. Then they proceed throw their miniatures out the window saying the game is trash and take themselves to the forums with pitchforks in hand. Whatever happened to the rule of cool, i remember that the rulebooks used to have an intro text about how you should always agree on what is ok and what is not when the rules were unclear. Have we really become such a bunch of degenerates that we like to just play a war game to piss off our friends? I doubt that.

"Rule of cool", "playing among friends" and the usual "beer & pretzels" are fine and all that, but still far from a valid excuse for the terrible state of 40k rules. Specially considering how much GW charges for them.

I'll state it now so people won't think I have a total turd-cake of a brain. You all stating that the rules should be fixed and that "casual" playing is not an excuse for gakky rules are absolutely right, and i thoroughly agree with you. I would also very much like to see a more solid rule-set (hence me supporting the ideas of a database based rule set as seen in this thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/687396.page#8596191 which has worked fine for epic). I just find it silly people take things to the extreme here talking about stuff that are clearly exploitation of the rules. Yes, ultimately the amount of exploits like that should be minimized (whilst the new psychic powers seem to only encourage it) but at the same time, there will always be something like that around if we want a truckload of cool and interesting rules, hence me wanting to remind people of the rule of cool. It just looks like it's occasionally forgotten when people come up with the most bizarre play styles and lists just to curb stomp others (definitely not cool).

 Grimmor wrote:

In any event this Power is still breaking one of the unwritten rules of TT Wargaming "Thou shall not move the other persons models"

Abilities that let you move the other players models are not new to 40K.

Arson Fire wrote:
Welp, this all sounds hilariously stupid.
I guess I can just CTA ally a librarius conclave, and pile my genestealer cult into an aquila strongpoint in the shape of a giant limo.

Even better when both players do it, and we can just drive our big idiotships around the battlefield. Firing full broadside into the enemy before staging a boarding action.

That sounds pretty fun actually.

Battlefleet Gothic at 40k scale

This was the moment I realised how much fun this is going to be, tricking out a sky shield as a fully customisable flying saucer, using psykers as the engine room, attack bikes as torpedoes etc.

I'm seriously looking forward to playing someone with it - though I think the game type needs a different name since it has as much relevance to 'standard' 40k as it does to dreadfleet.

Arson Fire wrote:
Welp, this all sounds hilariously stupid.
I guess I can just CTA ally a librarius conclave, and pile my genestealer cult into an aquila strongpoint in the shape of a giant limo.

Even better when both players do it, and we can just drive our big idiotships around the battlefield. Firing full broadside into the enemy before staging a boarding action.

That sounds pretty fun actually.

And would you really go trough the trouble to build such an army if you didn't have the models needed, just for the sake of making a mess? Would that really, honestly, actually be fun? Do you expect to play against a player who does that? Would you not simply throw your hands in the air and say good night and good riddance to your opponent if he did this?

Now you are probably joking, maybe you would like to play a game like that once, i would likely do it for the laughs too. But some people seem to really be scared of this which is utterly silly.

Finally! I can paint a Bastion silver and use magic to float it across the board. Silver Towers of Tzeentch! Thank you oh ruinous pow..... oh... it's yet another update for Space Marines.

Nevermind

I'm sure someone will figure out to do a silver tower legally. Just as I'm sure a lot of non-marine armies will be rocking Librarians from now on, regardless of come the apocalypse allies.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:

In any event this Power is still breaking one of the unwritten rules of TT Wargaming "Thou shall not move the other persons models"

Abilities that let you move the other players models are not new to 40K.

I am aware of Lash of Slaanesh, theres a reason its not around anymore.

 Grimmor wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:

In any event this Power is still breaking one of the unwritten rules of TT Wargaming "Thou shall not move the other persons models"

Abilities that let you move the other players models are not new to 40K.

I am aware of Lash of Slaanesh, theres a reason its not around anymore.

There have also been a bunch of abilities (psychic and otherwise) which moved enemy models randomly (as opposed to moving them to a location of the enemy player's choosing).

I don't see that it's that big of a deal.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:

In any event this Power is still breaking one of the unwritten rules of TT Wargaming "Thou shall not move the other persons models"

Abilities that let you move the other players models are not new to 40K.

I am aware of Lash of Slaanesh, theres a reason its not around anymore.

There have also been a bunch of abilities (psychic and otherwise) which moved enemy models randomly (as opposed to moving them to a location of the enemy player's choosing).

I don't see that it's that big of a deal.

Ok, you got me on that, but the operative term there is random. See when its random, no one has control and thats fine. If its a Psychic Power, i get to use any Psyker i may have to defend against it, and thats fine. Shifting Worldscape doesnt have either of those happen

Its not random, so my opponent gets to pick where im going (and its not a small distance in any event) and having a Psyker be present does nothing to boost your odds of shrugging it off.

This power is a seriously upgunned version of a Wood Elf Spell from Storm of Magic from WH:Fantasy, and that power could only move a forest 6" when nothing was in it. When 40ks Psychic Powers are beating out Warhammer Fantasy's 8th ed magic, we have a problem

 Grimmor wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:

In any event this Power is still breaking one of the unwritten rules of TT Wargaming "Thou shall not move the other persons models"

Abilities that let you move the other players models are not new to 40K.

I am aware of Lash of Slaanesh, theres a reason its not around anymore.

There have also been a bunch of abilities (psychic and otherwise) which moved enemy models randomly (as opposed to moving them to a location of the enemy player's choosing).

I don't see that it's that big of a deal.

Ok, you got me on that, but the operative term there is random. See when its random, no one has control and thats fine. If its a Psychic Power, i get to use any Psyker i may have to defend against it, and thats fine. Shifting Worldscape doesnt have either of those happen

Its not random, so my opponent gets to pick where im going (and its not a small distance in any event) and having a Psyker be present does nothing to boost your odds of shrugging it off.

This power is a seriously upgunned version of a Wood Elf Spell from Storm of Magic from WH:Fantasy, and that power could only move a forest 6" when nothing was in it. When 40ks Psychic Powers are beating out Warhammer Fantasy's 8th ed magic, we have a problem

There have been guns that did that E.g. Eldar d-cannons for which there was no defence. Shok attak guns could swap the shooter with the target with no defence

The problem I have with it is that it makes no sense. You can't pick up a building (and even more so a ruin) without tearing it to pieces. It's not impossible but you would need to know how the building was designed and have a deep understanding of how construction materials handle different types of load. Then you have to use your mental powers to sculpt a pad to drop the foundations into so if doesn't dearly itself the moment you at it down. All stuff that a librarian is not going to know.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:

In any event this Power is still breaking one of the unwritten rules of TT Wargaming "Thou shall not move the other persons models"

Abilities that let you move the other players models are not new to 40K.

I am aware of Lash of Slaanesh, theres a reason its not around anymore.

There have also been a bunch of abilities (psychic and otherwise) which moved enemy models randomly (as opposed to moving them to a location of the enemy player's choosing).

I don't see that it's that big of a deal.

Ok, you got me on that, but the operative term there is random. See when its random, no one has control and thats fine. If its a Psychic Power, i get to use any Psyker i may have to defend against it, and thats fine. Shifting Worldscape doesnt have either of those happen

Its not random, so my opponent gets to pick where im going (and its not a small distance in any event) and having a Psyker be present does nothing to boost your odds of shrugging it off.

This power is a seriously upgunned version of a Wood Elf Spell from Storm of Magic from WH:Fantasy, and that power could only move a forest 6" when nothing was in it. When 40ks Psychic Powers are beating out Warhammer Fantasy's 8th ed magic, we have a problem

There have been guns that did that E.g. Eldar d-cannons for which there was no defence. Shok attak guns could swap the shooter with the target with no defence

The problem I have with it is that it makes no sense. You can't pick up a building (and even more so a ruin) without tearing it to pieces. It's not impossible but you would need to know how the building was designed and have a deep understanding of how construction materials handle different types of load. Then you have to use your mental powers to sculpt a pad to drop the foundations into so if doesn't dearly itself the moment you at it down. All stuff that a librarian is not going to know.

All of this would be true, except that it's MAGIC... so physics, et al. doesn't apply.

Which is why it is so stupid.

Like everything, its all about learning how the powers are used and then taking measures to counter them, I imagine many more talented people than I are working on ways to hard counter this by either preventing it from happening or developing ways to deploy that limits it's effectiveness.

The sky is still not falling...

I am literally the most talented person when it comes to this stuff... And I've come up with didilly squat!

So yes, the sky is in fact falling

 Torus wrote:

Like everything, its all about learning how the powers are used and then taking measures to counter them, I imagine many more talented people than I are working on ways to hard counter this by either preventing it from happening or developing ways to deploy that limits it's effectiveness.

The sky is still not falling...

Uummm like what? Not be in cover? Cuz thats a death sentence for a fair few armies. Ally in a Culexus Assassin? some armies really dont want to as they are "Come the Apocalypse". Pray to the Dice Gods for lots of 6s? I already to this.

I love this power but to base your strategy around it is not very competitive. You have to have a conclave and that is a big chunk of your army devoted to this and not other powers like invisibility. But I digress, ive used it and it's fun. I've added tiggy to my 1850 war convocation for this power and the 4th power because those are very strong and give options.

this power is banned at our place until the ITC reviews/fixes it.

LinkXx wrote:
this power is banned at our place until the ITC reviews/fixes it.

Why? It's fun to play.

There is an ingenious way to beat this power. Fill the board up with so much terrain that you cant move the terrain anywhere because it will not fit. These make for the best games anyways. Planet bowling ball sucks.

It's not as powerful as invisibility, but it has such a massive impact on the game in a different way. It also produces plenty of rules disputes, such as regarding objectives etc. I've seen it used in a few games and they gave been utter stomps because the player on the receiving end wasn't expecting it and proceeded to loss multiple units hunkered down on terrain as they're ripped half way across the board in the jaws of a hungry wulfen. Also seen an extremely one sided first turn charge that was both more crippling and had even less counterplay than a skyhammer.

I think it probably needs a look over in balancing. But seeing as ITC isn't used in our area and house rules tend to come and go, it will be interesting to see exactly what changes stick

On a national tournament level atleast, it will be banned most of the time as it's a troublesome power for tournament tables which have predefined terrain.

Next to that, it's just ridiculous as a concept.

What makes the power ridiculous though? Haven't you read the fluff for Psykers?

It really should be a generic table.

Well, a certain WAAC opponent of mine sent an extremely smug message yesterday, and I think you can all see where this is headed.....

By his interpretation of the power he can use it to snatch up the keystones in my defences - IE my Bunkers and VSG - and move them elsewhere.... Say, to a place where his units can use them, and I can do nothing to stop this. Jack diddly squat.
Well, we have had a debate about this and the end point is that he insists my fortifications are all terrain as per the BRB. Needless to say I am not happy, although the one bright side of things is that this means he, by his own ruling, technically cannot target them for assaults or shooting as terrain cannot be targeted.
Still, I am really not happy about this.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Well, a certain WAAC opponent of mine sent an extremely smug message yesterday, and I think you can all see where this is headed.....

By his interpretation of the power he can use it to snatch up the keystones in my defences - IE my Bunkers and VSG - and move them elsewhere.... Say, to a place where his units can use them, and I can do nothing to stop this. Jack diddly squat.
Well, we have had a debate about this and the end point is that he insists my fortifications are all terrain as per the BRB. Needless to say I am not happy, although the one bright side of things is that this means he, by his own ruling, technically cannot target them for assaults or shooting as terrain cannot be targeted.
Still, I am really not happy about this.

To be fair, VSG's are becoming crazy popular due to how good they are, they could use a decent counter. Especially since a lot of people including ITC rule that the shields don't count as like...anything, so anti-armor rules like gauss and melta don't work on them, which is a really aggravating ruling for some armies. Crons for example typically don't bring high str anti armor, and telling them they can't shoot your army at all until they take down 3 AV12 hull points without using gauss is just mean.

And if I'm not mistaken, your fortifications are considered both models in your army AND terrain, so it would seem that he can both shift them and attack them. That's probably a call for an FAQ or you and your opponent to make though. (Or your TO if you're in an event.)

Really people are going nuts over shift, and I'm not sure why. We're up to 4 games now testing new powers, we've seen veil be awesome, we've definitely seen ESD be awesome, but shift and almost the entire geo school has just been bleh. There's only rarely a good situation to use shift, and it only comes up if your opponent doesn't know how it works. Once my roommate learned how to play against it, the best I could do with it was to add difficult terrain to his upcoming charge...that's about it.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Well, a certain WAAC opponent of mine sent an extremely smug message yesterday, and I think you can all see where this is headed.....

By his interpretation of the power he can use it to snatch up the keystones in my defences - IE my Bunkers and VSG - and move them elsewhere.... Say, to a place where his units can use them, and I can do nothing to stop this. Jack diddly squat.
Well, we have had a debate about this and the end point is that he insists my fortifications are all terrain as per the BRB. Needless to say I am not happy, although the one bright side of things is that this means he, by his own ruling, technically cannot target them for assaults or shooting as terrain cannot be targeted.
Still, I am really not happy about this.

Buildings ARE terrain. It is in their type. And they can be assaulted or shot because they are buildings. The Imperial Bunker has Terrain Type: Medium Building. So one, it can be moved by this power because it is terrain. Two, it can be shot or assaulted following the rules for attacking buildings from BRB and Stronghold Assault.

 gdzilla wrote:
I love this power but to base your strategy around it is not very competitive. You have to have a conclave and that is a big chunk of your army devoted to this and not other powers like invisibility. But I digress, ive used it and it's fun. I've added tiggy to my 1850 war convocation for this power and the 4th power because those are very strong and give options.

Who's basing their strategy around this? Its just a ridiculous power you can have, and with how Angels of Death works you can ally in 2 other Chapters (that arent Ultramarines) for no penalty. So you dont even need to max out a Librarius Conclave anymore, oh and yu can bring the Bones of Osrak as well as Tigerius.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Well, a certain WAAC opponent of mine sent an extremely smug message yesterday, and I think you can all see where this is headed.....

By his interpretation of the power he can use it to snatch up the keystones in my defences - IE my Bunkers and VSG - and move them elsewhere.... Say, to a place where his units can use them, and I can do nothing to stop this. Jack diddly squat.
Well, we have had a debate about this and the end point is that he insists my fortifications are all terrain as per the BRB. Needless to say I am not happy, although the one bright side of things is that this means he, by his own ruling, technically cannot target them for assaults or shooting as terrain cannot be targeted.
Still, I am really not happy about this.

To be fair, VSG's are becoming crazy popular due to how good they are, they could use a decent counter. Especially since a lot of people including ITC rule that the shields don't count as like...anything, so anti-armor rules like gauss and melta don't work on them, which is a really aggravating ruling for some armies. Crons for example typically don't bring high str anti armor, and telling them they can't shoot your army at all until they take down 3 AV12 hull points without using gauss is just mean.

And if I'm not mistaken, your fortifications are considered both models in your army AND terrain, so it would seem that he can both shift them and attack them. That's probably a call for an FAQ or you and your opponent to make though. (Or your TO if you're in an event.)

Really people are going nuts over shift, and I'm not sure why. We're up to 4 games now testing new powers, we've seen veil be awesome, we've definitely seen ESD be awesome, but shift and almost the entire geo school has just been bleh. There's only rarely a good situation to use shift, and it only comes up if your opponent doesn't know how it works. Once my roommate learned how to play against it, the best I could do with it was to add difficult terrain to his upcoming charge...that's about it.

I can see how VSG's could be considered powerful for/against some armies but I run Imperial Guard in a meta dominated by flavour of space marine players, many who are tournament champions and the like. I use my (sole) VSG as a protective bubble for my centerline, where it can cover my important (and expensive) units and provide an added modicum of cover for them (IE, my opponent actually has to dedicate significant firepower to killing said units) until he gets close. My bunkers on the other hand have yet to see action as I have only just finished them and I was planning on running a defensive line and seeing how that worked out, but now it seems that they will be utterly useless.

The real issue I have with this power is that it seems made purely for screwing about with those armies that rely on cover and fortifications to keep their units alive - IE, the Imperial Guard. Armies like SM and Necrons have the resiliency to take a few hits, Tau have the firepower to quash most attacks and have decent armour and Eldar are, well, Eldar. But those armies that lack the mobility and/or close quarters prowess and resiliency of those other armies need something to rely on. We need that cover and that fortification and this power essentially gives my opponent the ability to run off with my buildings and leave me high and dry.
And what is worse, they he will invariably position these so that he benefits from them instead, and I protest at having to pay 100 points for a VSG only for my opponent to steal it and benefit from it for the rest of the game.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
There have been hat did that E.g. Eldar d-cannons for which there was no defence. Shok attak guns could swap the shooter with the target with no defence

LOL... you serious?

are you seriously comparing getting my artillery big mek in CC with your demonprince, with a ruin filled with terminators having a frikking 42" charge range?!

i mean REALLY?! are you so desperate to defend this ridiculous power?

it is utterly OP and everyone knows it. not to mention that i dont wanna spend 5 min on making notes on what model was in what spot of the terrain piece, moving my models of the terrain, navigating the terrain through the table, putting the models back on and then randomly allocating failed terrein test...

it a silly power that would be fun as an WD exlusive so you can mess around with it in friendly games (lolz to the battlcruiser idea^^) but it has no place in the regular ruleset.

This is a bit of trouble and I can see how it could be broken against some armies but against my Genestealer cult formation with Tyranids I'm going to have more warp charges and enough firepower and close combat capability to kill most librarian squads that have this if I think it will be a problem and if my opponent clusters his army in such a way as to protect his precious librarians it's all the better for me.