Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 EnTyme wrote:

harkequin wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Its not only Geokinesis: 6 – WC3 24″. Move a piece of terrain by 24″, including models in it. (force a dangerous terrain test).

There are other new spells which can be game changing.

Fulmination: 5 – WC2 blessing, 18″. Move target unit by 18″.
Fulmination: 6 – WC2 blessing, 24″. Swap target unit with the psyker’s unit. Can work on allies and enemies alike.
Technomancy: 4- WC2 blessing at 24″, vehicule unit. +1 AV to all sides OR non vehicule unit +1T.
Librarius: 6 – WC2 1 enemy unit, 24″. -2 to invul saves (min 6+). This is the new nullzone.

Fulmination 5 & 6 are ALLIES ONLY
5 is basically Telekinesis "levitation" but better.
6 Is swap with an ally unit, can be cool, but hardly game breaking. You can't swap with vehicles.

I don't see anything in the description of Fulmination 6 that says "allied unit".

Honestly, only Librarius should be SM only. The other factions with psykers should have access to at least some of the other three. Don't know what a Tyranid would be doing with Technomancy or if Geokinesis would really be fluffy for Orks, but the other disciplines would fit just fine. I'm gonna allow my non-SM opponents to use these. My FLGS will make our own table for who can use what discipline.

The fulmination ones are blessings, you can't cast blessings on enemies. They don't have any special permission to cast it on enemies either.
Don't see very many invisible stormsurges rolling around do you?

It's a nifty trick, but compared to dark wolf scars, whom don't need this or most of the powers from this update (other than
Veil of Time, perhaps?) or Centurion Stars, whom would eother already have ignores cover from being white scars or rolling Divination to pick up Prescience, I don't really see a need to roll on Geokinesis, over, say, Fulmination or Librarius.

Its a neat trick, but not game smashingly awful like everyone is making it out to be.

 Crazyterran wrote:
It's a nifty trick, but compared to dark wolf scars, whom don't need this or most of the powers from this update (other than
Veil of Time, perhaps?) or Centurion Stars, whom would eother already have ignores cover from being white scars or rolling Divination to pick up Prescience, I don't really see a need to roll on Geokinesis, over, say, Fulmination or Librarius.

Its a neat trick, but not game smashingly awful like everyone is making it out to be.

Much agreed. Maybe once every few games that you roll up the power it may open up a winning move, but a situational warp charge 3 power should be powerful when the situation comes up.

 Crazyterran wrote:
It's a nifty trick, but compared to dark wolf scars, whom don't need this or most of the powers from this update (other than
Veil of Time, perhaps?) or Centurion Stars, whom would eother already have ignores cover from being white scars or rolling Divination to pick up Prescience, I don't really see a need to roll on Geokinesis, over, say, Fulmination or Librarius.

Its a neat trick, but not game smashingly awful like everyone is making it out to be.

Geokinesis' version of Ignores Cover also allows you to ignore LOS restrictions...so there's that.

That's true, but I would argue that you would almost always have an ideal target in line of sight, unless you managed to Bork it all up.

And rerolls to hit are pretty great, since being an Ultramarine I only get one reliable one! :p

 Jaxler wrote:


Since when did min/maxing become abuse? Is playing well evil or something?

Since before it started? Playing well is a separate thing not connected to trying to break the game by list building.

If GW did proper playtesting-in other words, hiring people specifically to break the game in order to find this so-called "abuse" before the gak goes to print-then people wouldn't be able to break the game in the first place, or it would be significantly more difficult to do.

Don't shame players for walking through a door that GW left wide open.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Meos wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Lots of silly overreaction to this, to be frank. It's only a game folks.

If it's so inconsequential I guess there's no reason for you to waste any more of your time posting about it then. Cheers!

That's his legitimate opinion. The thread is a poll and asks for peoples opinions. I'm glad he shared his. No need to bash it just because it's different of yours. You know, free exchange of opinions and stuff, else this thread should be called "Shifting worldscape, compiled complaints".

He took the time out of his busy schedule to dismiss people's concerns as "silly overreaction" to what is "only a game". My legitimate opinion is that his assertion is either foolish or trolling.

Yes, but he did not advocate you to stop sharing your opinion. Something you did to him. You see, there is a difference between a "i disagree" and "you should not be allowed to talk" kind of rhetoric. The latter is rude and does not promote anything but animosity and doesn't belong in a civil discussion.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Meos wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Lots of silly overreaction to this, to be frank. It's only a game folks.

If it's so inconsequential I guess there's no reason for you to waste any more of your time posting about it then. Cheers!

That's his legitimate opinion. The thread is a poll and asks for peoples opinions. I'm glad he shared his. No need to bash it just because it's different of yours. You know, free exchange of opinions and stuff, else this thread should be called "Shifting worldscape, compiled complaints".

Also, I actually do agree with him. It's my freaking hobby so i play with the rules I, and my friend, want. If we feel the new powers are OP or dumb we just don't use them. Despite seeing the issues with the rules i still don't see why it's such a big deal i just see it as something new and fun to try out in games. Then again, I could not give less of a damn about tournament and competitive play since tabletop games are in my books a rather idiotic format for such due to the actual games being such a small part of the hobby at large. To me it feels no different from competing in an PnP RPG (an utterly ridiculous idea to me).

A pen and paper RPG is typically designed for a coop experience out of the box. A wargame is generally, by definition, an adversarial, competitive (on at least some level) experience. Conflating the two would be to misunderstand the basic premise.

And gaming forms a huge part of the experience, these are game pieces after all, with huge expensive rulebooks. Wanting that experience to be something other than a mishmashed clusterfeth or a one sided curbstomp on a roytine basis is not at all an unreasonable expectation from a tabletop wargame, regardless of casual vs competitive play.

This sort of absurd thing worked in Rogue Trader...but the game also had a 3rd party GM then and was far more akin to an RPG than the current game which fundamentally still operates as an adversarial engagement.

You are right, i made a gak comparison. And i whole heartedly agree with you in the fact that one should in fact be able to count on somewhat a fair game when wanting to play a tabletop war game. I guess i just am a bit less troubled by it due to having a different type of community i play with. Not all have that, and i understand they need at least some form of regulating setting. I mean they could equally well ask me why i'm not just playing with self made rules to begin with.

 Meos wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Meos wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Lots of silly overreaction to this, to be frank. It's only a game folks.

If it's so inconsequential I guess there's no reason for you to waste any more of your time posting about it then. Cheers!

That's his legitimate opinion. The thread is a poll and asks for peoples opinions. I'm glad he shared his. No need to bash it just because it's different of yours. You know, free exchange of opinions and stuff, else this thread should be called "Shifting worldscape, compiled complaints".

He took the time out of his busy schedule to dismiss people's concerns as "silly overreaction" to what is "only a game". My legitimate opinion is that his assertion is either foolish or trolling.

Yes, but he did not advocate you to stop sharing your opinion. Something you did to him. You see, there is a difference between a "i disagree" and "you should not be allowed to talk" kind of rhetoric. The latter is rude and does not promote anything but animosity and doesn't belong in a civil discussion.

Firstly, he felt compelled to pop in here just to call everyone else's opinions "silly". How is that not promoting animosity?

And where did I say he should not be allowed to talk? He belittled the opinions of others by saying it's "only a game" - the implication being we should all feel foolish for having such strong opinions about something so inconsequential. That argument in an of itself is hypocritical - if it's so unimportant that we all shouldn't care, why do you care so much that you're spending time belittling other people's opinions about it (but only if they disagree with you of course)?

Im looking forward to putting a whole army on a skyshield and launching into my opponents deploy zone turn 1. Like an entire wraith host with D scythes and a libby conclave poding in to avoid and turn 1 counters.

Doesn't help that Loth gets all the new trees too.

Oh well, let the stupidity roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swampmist wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
I can't wait for the ITC clarification/errata/houserule that comes out of this new Angels of Death and psychic cards ridiculousness. The furor and threads devoted to that will be the real spectacle.

My expectation is that Shifting Worldscape will be banned entirely tbh, it's just too much of a hassle for long-form tournies...

The big problem Im hearing is that you have to move the piece with the enemy models still in the same place, because if you take them off and replace them it can be a big deal. Whatever its ITC, where the biggest scum bag wins as long as you have a special email letting you cheat and you get to be an exploitive dick with zero consequence.

 Mechanical Crow wrote:
Im looking forward to putting a whole army on a skyshield and launching into my opponents deploy zone turn 1. Like an entire wraith host with D scythes and a libby conclave poding in to avoid and turn 1 counters.

Doesn't help that Loth gets all the new trees too.

Oh well, let the stupidity roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swampmist wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
I can't wait for the ITC clarification/errata/houserule that comes out of this new Angels of Death and psychic cards ridiculousness. The furor and threads devoted to that will be the real spectacle.

My expectation is that Shifting Worldscape will be banned entirely tbh, it's just too much of a hassle for long-form tournies...

The big problem Im hearing is that you have to move the piece with the enemy models still in the same place, because if you take them off and replace them it can be a big deal. Whatever its ITC, where the biggest scum bag wins as long as you have a special email letting you cheat and you get to be an exploitive dick with zero consequence.

Where in Loths Master Psyker special rule that allows him to pick from the new trees? Emails aren't permission, as those are easy to fake. I do they even have an email for this, regardless.

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Mechanical Crow wrote:
Im looking forward to putting a whole army on a skyshield and launching into my opponents deploy zone turn 1. Like an entire wraith host with D scythes and a libby conclave poding in to avoid and turn 1 counters.

Doesn't help that Loth gets all the new trees too.

Oh well, let the stupidity roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swampmist wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
I can't wait for the ITC clarification/errata/houserule that comes out of this new Angels of Death and psychic cards ridiculousness. The furor and threads devoted to that will be the real spectacle.

My expectation is that Shifting Worldscape will be banned entirely tbh, it's just too much of a hassle for long-form tournies...

The big problem Im hearing is that you have to move the piece with the enemy models still in the same place, because if you take them off and replace them it can be a big deal. Whatever its ITC, where the biggest scum bag wins as long as you have a special email letting you cheat and you get to be an exploitive dick with zero consequence.

Where in Loths Master Psyker special rule that allows him to pick from the new trees? Emails aren't permission, as those are easy to fake. I do they even have an email for this, regardless.

Its right in angels of death.

All librarians with the space marine faction get the new trees in addition to any they already know. Hard to get around that til forge world says something.

And as for the special emails Im referring to LVO and Adepticon both being won by individuals that had emails with rulings that know one else knew about.

There's no permission for Loth, since his Master Psyker rule is separate from what Psychic Powers Librarians have access to.

Unless is Master Psyker rule is updated, he's not allowed to pick from any of the new trees. Rolling, however, he is allowed to do.

 Crazyterran wrote:
There's no permission for Loth, since his Master Psyker rule is separate from what Psychic Powers Librarians have access to.

Unless is Master Psyker rule is updated, he's not allowed to pick from any of the new trees. Rolling, however, he is allowed to do.

I didn't read it like that at first but yeah I think you're right. Shame since geokinesis might have the best grouping of 3 powers (for Centstar at least). Back to rolling like a pleb or having Loth generate invis.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Meos wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Meos wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Lots of silly overreaction to this, to be frank. It's only a game folks.

If it's so inconsequential I guess there's no reason for you to waste any more of your time posting about it then. Cheers!

That's his legitimate opinion. The thread is a poll and asks for peoples opinions. I'm glad he shared his. No need to bash it just because it's different of yours. You know, free exchange of opinions and stuff, else this thread should be called "Shifting worldscape, compiled complaints".

He took the time out of his busy schedule to dismiss people's concerns as "silly overreaction" to what is "only a game". My legitimate opinion is that his assertion is either foolish or trolling.

Yes, but he did not advocate you to stop sharing your opinion. Something you did to him. You see, there is a difference between a "i disagree" and "you should not be allowed to talk" kind of rhetoric. The latter is rude and does not promote anything but animosity and doesn't belong in a civil discussion.

Firstly, he felt compelled to pop in here just to call everyone else's opinions "silly". How is that not promoting animosity?

And where did I say he should not be allowed to talk? He belittled the opinions of others by saying it's "only a game" - the implication being we should all feel foolish for having such strong opinions about something so inconsequential. That argument in an of itself is hypocritical - if it's so unimportant that we all shouldn't care, why do you care so much that you're spending time belittling other people's opinions about it (but only if they disagree with you of course)?

I now agree on another point of his. You really should relax.

He never told you to spend your time better than to discuss the topic. He said that in his opinion the discussion is overreaction, which whether true or not is just an opinion. He also said that it's "just a game" a statement that is true both literally and in any other way imaginable. He never said people should not participate in the discussion. You did. No one is being a hypocrite, just you being rude.

Why i care of others opinions? Simple, i like open discussion, which has been good here. I dislike people who go into personal attack against other in an attempt to shut down the discussion and promote their own opinion. The fine line here being drawn at the personal attack by commenting the private life of someone else.

 Meos wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Meos wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Meos wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Lots of silly overreaction to this, to be frank. It's only a game folks.

If it's so inconsequential I guess there's no reason for you to waste any more of your time posting about it then. Cheers!

That's his legitimate opinion. The thread is a poll and asks for peoples opinions. I'm glad he shared his. No need to bash it just because it's different of yours. You know, free exchange of opinions and stuff, else this thread should be called "Shifting worldscape, compiled complaints".

He took the time out of his busy schedule to dismiss people's concerns as "silly overreaction" to what is "only a game". My legitimate opinion is that his assertion is either foolish or trolling.

Yes, but he did not advocate you to stop sharing your opinion. Something you did to him. You see, there is a difference between a "i disagree" and "you should not be allowed to talk" kind of rhetoric. The latter is rude and does not promote anything but animosity and doesn't belong in a civil discussion.

Firstly, he felt compelled to pop in here just to call everyone else's opinions "silly". How is that not promoting animosity?

And where did I say he should not be allowed to talk? He belittled the opinions of others by saying it's "only a game" - the implication being we should all feel foolish for having such strong opinions about something so inconsequential. That argument in an of itself is hypocritical - if it's so unimportant that we all shouldn't care, why do you care so much that you're spending time belittling other people's opinions about it (but only if they disagree with you of course)?

I now agree on another point of his. You really should relax.

He never told you to spend your time better than to discuss the topic. He said that in his opinion the discussion is overreaction, which whether true or not is just an opinion. He also said that it's "just a game" a statement that is true both literally and in any other way imaginable. He never said people should not participate in the discussion. You did. No one is being a hypocrite, just you being rude.

Why i care of others opinions? Simple, i like open discussion, which has been good here. I dislike people who go into personal attack against other in an attempt to shut down the discussion and promote their own opinion. The fine line here being drawn at the personal attack by commenting the private life of someone else.

I didn't attack him personally. I attacked his argument as borderline trolling. Because it was.

Hi All,

OP here, some of the recent post haven't really been on topic regarding the question. So... if we could come back to the conversation at hand that would be great.

Everyone's comments are welcome; about the topic.

I have been learning a lot reading through the topic myself. I have certainly noticed that there seems to be a real distinction regarding how folks feel about the general expectation about Power Level with 40k right now. On one side there seems to be a group that is very accepting of the fact that GW has a regular tendancy to go 'over the top' with regards to some new stuff being put out recently. On the other side there seems to be a group who feel that this trend is detrimental to the game. Both are valid, however it has given me better perspective on those who voted Yes.

I will share another aspect of Shifting Worldscape that does bother me about his new power; and it has been mentioned already. Obviously through our discussion here, and in other threads, there are clearly some very grey areas with respect to how the rule is worded. And I think that most everyone could agree that in all likelihood not a lot of thought was given to the consequences of introducing this power. I personally enjoy playing the game, not having to stop play to have a long chat with my opponent about how to interpret a rule. And I feel that this particular psychic power is going to be debated a great deal; specifically with regards to how it is to be played.

The other thing that bothers me as a player is that Shifting Worldscape does introduce a very real, and I feel significant, change in the games paradigm. Static terrain has been a feature of the game in all the time I have played (although reading here it has made an appearance in Fantasy). The idea that my oppenent can 'steal my Aegis Defence Line, or turn my bunker 180 degrees making it effectively useless, and my personal favorite the Flying Assault Bastion, is not cool. I feel that introducing such a change via a single new psychic power (for a single Faction) with very little explanation is very careless on the part of GW. Games evolve and change over time, that is acceptable. However this change leaves a sour taste in my mouth, not because it introduces change, but because it introduces such dramatic change with little or no explanation. It certainly does not fit any fluff I have ever read in 40k lore, nor does it even appear to match any particular factions theme. The Flying Assault Bastion for example pretty much bends my willful suspension of disbelief to the breaking point; and that's saying a lot in the 40K universe LOL.

Anyway, just a few more of my own thoughts to add to the discussion.

Doesn't fit any fluff you've read for 40k? Have you not read anything with a single Psyker in it?

If we can handle Magnus shifting between small and mountainous size and Dak'ir carving starships in half, we can handle terrain moving, in fluff terms.

It's broken, of course, but that is due to its game effects only.

There are certain unwritten ground rules about what things are supposed to be moved in the course of the game and by whom. Among them: you don't move your opponent's models and you don't move the terrain. This power breaks those rules. That's my biggest problem with it.

I stand corrected on Dak'ir. Magnus being the size of a mountain though? I know he could alter his size, but I don't recall him being Mountain sized.

Regardless, the examples you present are specific moments in a story that happen for a dramatic plot event. I would contend that it does not represent what is 'normal' with respect to psychic powers. As much as we can speak about 'normal' regarding imaginary stuff LOL.

Perhaps I should have been more clear, when looking over the fluff for 40k there are lots of psyker's, however world altering powers are relegated to a few, not many. To me being able to fling buildings, mountian's, rivers, forests, and fortress' would represent the most rare and powerful psyker's.

I play Necrons . I'm gonna have fun with this power .

Maybe when ITC nerfs the completely broken spells I'll have a go vs them, but spess murrenz already get so many toys to counter basically anything and everything, they REALLY don't need to have a op phy phase too.

SpookyRuben wrote:
I stand corrected on Dak'ir. Magnus being the size of a mountain though? I know he could alter his size, but I don't recall him being Mountain sized.

Regardless, the examples you present are specific moments in a story that happen for a dramatic plot event. I would contend that it does not represent what is 'normal' with respect to psychic powers. As much as we can speak about 'normal' regarding imaginary stuff LOL.

Perhaps I should have been more clear, when looking over the fluff for 40k there are lots of psyker's, however world altering powers are relegated to a few, not many. To me being able to fling buildings, mountian's, rivers, forests, and fortress' would represent the most rare and powerful psyker's.

And to REALLY show that, it is a WC3 power on a ML2 dude.

This power can single handedly destroy Maelstrom. Your opponent has a 20 man Ob Sec warrior brick on an objective in a Ruin? Just move them halfway across the table. Broadsides in a Ruin? Right into the teeth of your Thunderwolves. Ork Mek Guns hiding in terrain? Lol no cover for you.

Ya this power is poorly thought out and just plain stupid from a mechanical perspective. You do not allow people to move your models, and you sure as hell dont let them move them halfway across the fething board.

So i would ask my opponent to please re roll 6s in Geomancy if i played against someone who used this, as the power is just plain busted.

New rule: any terrain feature placed within range of a Culexus mishaps.

 Grimmor wrote:
This power can single handedly destroy Maelstrom. Your opponent has a 20 man Ob Sec warrior brick on an objective in a Ruin? Just move them halfway across the table. Broadsides in a Ruin? Right into the teeth of your Thunderwolves. Ork Mek Guns hiding in terrain? Lol no cover for you.

Ya this power is poorly thought out and just plain stupid from a mechanical perspective. You do not allow people to move your models, and you sure as hell dont let them move them halfway across the fething board.

So i would ask my opponent to please re roll 6s in Geomancy if i played against someone who used this, as the power is just plain busted.

I suspect the ruling on it will be that you cannot move objectives other than the relic. Otherwise its going to be extra stupid when the marine player has all the objectives together with his unkillable unit sitting on top of them.

 Mechanical Crow wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:
This power can single handedly destroy Maelstrom. Your opponent has a 20 man Ob Sec warrior brick on an objective in a Ruin? Just move them halfway across the table. Broadsides in a Ruin? Right into the teeth of your Thunderwolves. Ork Mek Guns hiding in terrain? Lol no cover for you.

Ya this power is poorly thought out and just plain stupid from a mechanical perspective. You do not allow people to move your models, and you sure as hell dont let them move them halfway across the fething board.

So i would ask my opponent to please re roll 6s in Geomancy if i played against someone who used this, as the power is just plain busted.

I suspect the ruling on it will be that you cannot move objectives other than the relic. Otherwise its going to be extra stupid when the marine player has all the objectives together with his unkillable unit sitting on top of them.

Actually Grimmor isn't taking about moving the objective. He is referring to the fact that the unit moves with the terrain. In this case 'away from the objective'. The objective stays behind (at least that seems to be the general consensus regarding the objectives relative to the terrain).

He makes a good point though, 24" is a rather long way for a unit to foot slog. In many cases most infantry units probably average that distance over the course of the game if you consider a mix of open ground, difficult ground and not running every turn. I would say that using this power 'as is' could be very useful in the last turn of an Eternal War mission, where VP's are tallied at the end of the game, unless your opponent intentionally leaves some models in the unit outside the terrain.

SpookyRuben wrote:
Actually Grimmor isn't taking about moving the objective. He is referring to the fact that the unit moves with the terrain. In this case 'away from the objective'. The objective stays behind (at least that seems to be the general consensus regarding the objectives relative to the terrain).

He makes a good point though, 24" is a rather long way for a unit to foot slog. In many cases most infantry units probably average that distance over the course of the game if you consider a mix of open ground, difficult ground and not running every turn. I would say that using this power 'as is' could be very useful in the last turn of an Eternal War mission, where VP's are tallied at the end of the game, unless your opponent intentionally leaves some models in the unit outside the terrain.

Correct. Objective Markers arent an actual thing in game, they just represent something, so they cant move. So if you have an Objective on a ruin and some dudes are claiming it, they will get chucked halfway across the map and the Objective stays where it was. Its not cool.

However the Terrain must stop within 1 inch of other models or terrain so that prevents at least a few shenanigans, but it doesnt stop the fact that this just hosed multiple people in Maelstrom games.

Edit: It gets worse when you realize that every Army of the Imperium has access to this because of the Librarius Conclave.

I'd play against it in friendly, fun games with my friends. I think it could be cool as hell both from a game standpoint and a reason to make some new terrain (Finally an excuse!).

However I would not like it in a competitive environment because people would probably take a Librarius Conclave and just screw with everything on the table.