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Like everything, its all about learning how the powers are used and then taking measures to counter them, I imagine many more talented people than I are working on ways to hard counter this by either preventing it from happening or developing ways to deploy that limits it's effectiveness.

The sky is still not falling...

I am literally the most talented person when it comes to this stuff... And I've come up with didilly squat!

So yes, the sky is in fact falling

 Torus wrote:

Like everything, its all about learning how the powers are used and then taking measures to counter them, I imagine many more talented people than I are working on ways to hard counter this by either preventing it from happening or developing ways to deploy that limits it's effectiveness.

The sky is still not falling...

Uummm like what? Not be in cover? Cuz thats a death sentence for a fair few armies. Ally in a Culexus Assassin? some armies really dont want to as they are "Come the Apocalypse". Pray to the Dice Gods for lots of 6s? I already to this.

I love this power but to base your strategy around it is not very competitive. You have to have a conclave and that is a big chunk of your army devoted to this and not other powers like invisibility. But I digress, ive used it and it's fun. I've added tiggy to my 1850 war convocation for this power and the 4th power because those are very strong and give options.

this power is banned at our place until the ITC reviews/fixes it.

LinkXx wrote:
this power is banned at our place until the ITC reviews/fixes it.

Why? It's fun to play.

There is an ingenious way to beat this power. Fill the board up with so much terrain that you cant move the terrain anywhere because it will not fit. These make for the best games anyways. Planet bowling ball sucks.

It's not as powerful as invisibility, but it has such a massive impact on the game in a different way. It also produces plenty of rules disputes, such as regarding objectives etc. I've seen it used in a few games and they gave been utter stomps because the player on the receiving end wasn't expecting it and proceeded to loss multiple units hunkered down on terrain as they're ripped half way across the board in the jaws of a hungry wulfen. Also seen an extremely one sided first turn charge that was both more crippling and had even less counterplay than a skyhammer.

I think it probably needs a look over in balancing. But seeing as ITC isn't used in our area and house rules tend to come and go, it will be interesting to see exactly what changes stick

On a national tournament level atleast, it will be banned most of the time as it's a troublesome power for tournament tables which have predefined terrain.

Next to that, it's just ridiculous as a concept.

What makes the power ridiculous though? Haven't you read the fluff for Psykers?

It really should be a generic table.

Well, a certain WAAC opponent of mine sent an extremely smug message yesterday, and I think you can all see where this is headed.....

By his interpretation of the power he can use it to snatch up the keystones in my defences - IE my Bunkers and VSG - and move them elsewhere.... Say, to a place where his units can use them, and I can do nothing to stop this. Jack diddly squat.
Well, we have had a debate about this and the end point is that he insists my fortifications are all terrain as per the BRB. Needless to say I am not happy, although the one bright side of things is that this means he, by his own ruling, technically cannot target them for assaults or shooting as terrain cannot be targeted.
Still, I am really not happy about this.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Well, a certain WAAC opponent of mine sent an extremely smug message yesterday, and I think you can all see where this is headed.....

By his interpretation of the power he can use it to snatch up the keystones in my defences - IE my Bunkers and VSG - and move them elsewhere.... Say, to a place where his units can use them, and I can do nothing to stop this. Jack diddly squat.
Well, we have had a debate about this and the end point is that he insists my fortifications are all terrain as per the BRB. Needless to say I am not happy, although the one bright side of things is that this means he, by his own ruling, technically cannot target them for assaults or shooting as terrain cannot be targeted.
Still, I am really not happy about this.

To be fair, VSG's are becoming crazy popular due to how good they are, they could use a decent counter. Especially since a lot of people including ITC rule that the shields don't count as like...anything, so anti-armor rules like gauss and melta don't work on them, which is a really aggravating ruling for some armies. Crons for example typically don't bring high str anti armor, and telling them they can't shoot your army at all until they take down 3 AV12 hull points without using gauss is just mean.

And if I'm not mistaken, your fortifications are considered both models in your army AND terrain, so it would seem that he can both shift them and attack them. That's probably a call for an FAQ or you and your opponent to make though. (Or your TO if you're in an event.)

Really people are going nuts over shift, and I'm not sure why. We're up to 4 games now testing new powers, we've seen veil be awesome, we've definitely seen ESD be awesome, but shift and almost the entire geo school has just been bleh. There's only rarely a good situation to use shift, and it only comes up if your opponent doesn't know how it works. Once my roommate learned how to play against it, the best I could do with it was to add difficult terrain to his upcoming charge...that's about it.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Well, a certain WAAC opponent of mine sent an extremely smug message yesterday, and I think you can all see where this is headed.....

By his interpretation of the power he can use it to snatch up the keystones in my defences - IE my Bunkers and VSG - and move them elsewhere.... Say, to a place where his units can use them, and I can do nothing to stop this. Jack diddly squat.
Well, we have had a debate about this and the end point is that he insists my fortifications are all terrain as per the BRB. Needless to say I am not happy, although the one bright side of things is that this means he, by his own ruling, technically cannot target them for assaults or shooting as terrain cannot be targeted.
Still, I am really not happy about this.

Buildings ARE terrain. It is in their type. And they can be assaulted or shot because they are buildings. The Imperial Bunker has Terrain Type: Medium Building. So one, it can be moved by this power because it is terrain. Two, it can be shot or assaulted following the rules for attacking buildings from BRB and Stronghold Assault.

 gdzilla wrote:
I love this power but to base your strategy around it is not very competitive. You have to have a conclave and that is a big chunk of your army devoted to this and not other powers like invisibility. But I digress, ive used it and it's fun. I've added tiggy to my 1850 war convocation for this power and the 4th power because those are very strong and give options.

Who's basing their strategy around this? Its just a ridiculous power you can have, and with how Angels of Death works you can ally in 2 other Chapters (that arent Ultramarines) for no penalty. So you dont even need to max out a Librarius Conclave anymore, oh and yu can bring the Bones of Osrak as well as Tigerius.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Well, a certain WAAC opponent of mine sent an extremely smug message yesterday, and I think you can all see where this is headed.....

By his interpretation of the power he can use it to snatch up the keystones in my defences - IE my Bunkers and VSG - and move them elsewhere.... Say, to a place where his units can use them, and I can do nothing to stop this. Jack diddly squat.
Well, we have had a debate about this and the end point is that he insists my fortifications are all terrain as per the BRB. Needless to say I am not happy, although the one bright side of things is that this means he, by his own ruling, technically cannot target them for assaults or shooting as terrain cannot be targeted.
Still, I am really not happy about this.

To be fair, VSG's are becoming crazy popular due to how good they are, they could use a decent counter. Especially since a lot of people including ITC rule that the shields don't count as like...anything, so anti-armor rules like gauss and melta don't work on them, which is a really aggravating ruling for some armies. Crons for example typically don't bring high str anti armor, and telling them they can't shoot your army at all until they take down 3 AV12 hull points without using gauss is just mean.

And if I'm not mistaken, your fortifications are considered both models in your army AND terrain, so it would seem that he can both shift them and attack them. That's probably a call for an FAQ or you and your opponent to make though. (Or your TO if you're in an event.)

Really people are going nuts over shift, and I'm not sure why. We're up to 4 games now testing new powers, we've seen veil be awesome, we've definitely seen ESD be awesome, but shift and almost the entire geo school has just been bleh. There's only rarely a good situation to use shift, and it only comes up if your opponent doesn't know how it works. Once my roommate learned how to play against it, the best I could do with it was to add difficult terrain to his upcoming charge...that's about it.

I can see how VSG's could be considered powerful for/against some armies but I run Imperial Guard in a meta dominated by flavour of space marine players, many who are tournament champions and the like. I use my (sole) VSG as a protective bubble for my centerline, where it can cover my important (and expensive) units and provide an added modicum of cover for them (IE, my opponent actually has to dedicate significant firepower to killing said units) until he gets close. My bunkers on the other hand have yet to see action as I have only just finished them and I was planning on running a defensive line and seeing how that worked out, but now it seems that they will be utterly useless.

The real issue I have with this power is that it seems made purely for screwing about with those armies that rely on cover and fortifications to keep their units alive - IE, the Imperial Guard. Armies like SM and Necrons have the resiliency to take a few hits, Tau have the firepower to quash most attacks and have decent armour and Eldar are, well, Eldar. But those armies that lack the mobility and/or close quarters prowess and resiliency of those other armies need something to rely on. We need that cover and that fortification and this power essentially gives my opponent the ability to run off with my buildings and leave me high and dry.
And what is worse, they he will invariably position these so that he benefits from them instead, and I protest at having to pay 100 points for a VSG only for my opponent to steal it and benefit from it for the rest of the game.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
There have been hat did that E.g. Eldar d-cannons for which there was no defence. Shok attak guns could swap the shooter with the target with no defence

LOL... you serious?

are you seriously comparing getting my artillery big mek in CC with your demonprince, with a ruin filled with terminators having a frikking 42" charge range?!

i mean REALLY?! are you so desperate to defend this ridiculous power?

it is utterly OP and everyone knows it. not to mention that i dont wanna spend 5 min on making notes on what model was in what spot of the terrain piece, moving my models of the terrain, navigating the terrain through the table, putting the models back on and then randomly allocating failed terrein test...

it a silly power that would be fun as an WD exlusive so you can mess around with it in friendly games (lolz to the battlcruiser idea^^) but it has no place in the regular ruleset.

This is a bit of trouble and I can see how it could be broken against some armies but against my Genestealer cult formation with Tyranids I'm going to have more warp charges and enough firepower and close combat capability to kill most librarian squads that have this if I think it will be a problem and if my opponent clusters his army in such a way as to protect his precious librarians it's all the better for me.