The Cyclopia Cabal is the from the new supplement "Black Legion" A few weeks ago I saw Tsilber wreck a GT, edging first over top players like Nick Nanavanti, Kurt Clauss, Jhason Hardy and Alexander Fennell. This article describes how the use the Cabal to get the most use out of it.
Have you tried the Cabal? Have you seen it in action?
What have you found to be really useful or effective?
Could this be used to make CSM competitive in today's meta?
Your article is pretty solid, and the idea of attaching the cabal to a KDK gorepack is awesome, but is there a way to run this that doesn't murder the fluff, lol.
I was thinking a more viable way to use this formation would be to just have as many psychic shrieks as you can, so either splitting the cabal across all the units in your army, or taking the "Chosen of Abaddon" formation to deep strike fearless sorcerers with terminators, or something.
whitedragon wrote: Your article is pretty solid, and the idea of attaching the cabal to a KDK gorepack is awesome, but is there a way to run this that doesn't murder the fluff, lol.
I know right? I makes the fluff bunny inside me cringe.
whitedragon wrote: I was thinking a more viable way to use this formation would be to just have as many psychic shrieks as you can, so either splitting the cabal across all the units in your army, or taking the "Chosen of Abaddon" formation to deep strike fearless sorcerers with terminators, or something.
Shrieks are not bad, and I think it's the most effective power in the book today.
The nice thing is that you have the option of where to deploy the cabal. If you are facing something where you want to have lots of shrieks vs a deathstar, just deploy them differently.
The style is more of a MSU army, and the damage output is considerably high, able to fell a WK in 4 shrieks on average. (Assuming none are denied or failed).
Defense, however is worse, relying on T6 and relying (in emergencies) on 2+ cover with far lesser close combat skills. The deathstar wins there. Just be wary of it getting clogged up by a tarpit.
crimson_caesar, have you had a chance to try a few practice games with the shriek list yet?
I would be very interested in hearing your experiences with it.
Edit : If you don't mind, I'd also like to update the article talking about using them as a shriek-squad with your experiences. I always try and go back and update my old articles when possible.
While the slaanesh sorcs running in a hound star is completely unfluffy, I do believe unmarked sorcs are a good way to represent Word Bearers finally.
I am excited to try out a mini hound star with Word Bearer unmarked sorcs. I also think Daemonology-Sanctic works with Word Bearer fluff too. I only wish we had Word Bearer rules.
Drakkol wrote: I do believe unmarked sorcs are a good way to represent Word Bearers finally.
I also think Daemonology-Sanctic works with Word Bearer fluff too.
I painted my sorcerors in Black Legion colors to go with my KDK Blood Host. In my mind, if Black Legion were orchestrating a new Black Crusade, they would use KDK warbands to throw into the grinder first to prolong their own lives A bunch of Unmarked sorcerors from the Black Legion kinda made sense in my head.
Last game I played, I used a combination of Maelific/Telepathy in my Cabal, which came out to great affect. I gave each sorceror 3 MLs, and made one sorceror Maelific and the rest Telepathy. I would use 5-6 dice to summon with on one sorceror in a cultist blob in the back, then the remainder of the pool would get spread out among the remaining psykers for shrieks and shrouding (I didn't get invisibility, darn it). I summoned about 500 points worth of units off that one sorc before he peril'd himself to death, and still had all the other sorcs for shrieking and buffing other units. I loved how it worked, probably going to make it a regular thing.
I would be very interested in hearing your experiences with it.
Edit : If you don't mind, I'd also like to update the article talking about using them as a shriek-squad with your experiences. I always try and go back and update my old articles when possible.
Unfortunately, I am out of town for about a month and won't be able to test it until I get back. I'll make a battle report when I do. However I believe there was another another use who was going to test it, but I forget it his name.
here in my country i cant play lists with demons formations+KDK formations+chaos so i dont know how fit a cabal in a competitive list, if i play a CAD i can play 1 single formation coming from that CAD and 1 allied detachment, if i play demonic incursion i cant play nothing elsewith it, so i cant buil a list like that, or i ally cabal to demons, but then i cant join any demon unit..
Im playing a list on Sunday with this and a renegade knight. 4 Sorcerers on bikes all lvl 1 all rolling telepathy. I will post up how it works out. I want a 5th sorcerer on a bike, but that's a bit off, since I just finished buying my daemon engine pack.
The "delivery" can be an issue, especially if you're not trying to murder the fluff. KDK gorepacks seem like the perfect way to run the Cabal and get them where they need to go. Scout + Shriek seems like a huge no brainer, but I have a different idea I'm trying to make work.
I want to run an Emperor's Children/Slaanesh style list, and Slaanesh Heralds and KoS all get access to Telepathy themselves. I was thinking of running several heralds with Seekers, and split up the Cabal to be in Rhinos of CSM's driving alongside the seekers providing support. The problem is that it gets really pricey really fast.
Spawn- good (especially nurgle) but max 15 wounds
Raptors - nah, but can go to 20
KDK hounds- up to 40 wounds, fast, not super durable
BIkers - pretty versatile- only 10 wounds tho.
KDK bloodcrushers- kinda fun, but not as efficient as hounds. 27 max wounds.
++ Chaos Space Marines: Codex (2012) (Formation Detachment) (750pts) ++
+ (No Category) +
Force Options (Supplement options here) [Black Legion]
+ Formation (750pts) +
Cyclopia Cabal (750pts) ····Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Power Armour, Spell familiar, Veterans of the Long War] ····Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Power Armour, Spell familiar, Veterans of the Long War] ····Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Power Armour, Spell familiar, Veterans of the Long War] ····Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Power Armour, Spell familiar, Veterans of the Long War] ····Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Power Armour, Spell familiar, Veterans of the Long War]
With so many hounds, it would be hard to get to the gooey psyker center. Minimum 20 ablative wounds, all with invul saves and t4? Not bad. Paired with bikes for the sorcerors, you have a pretty mobile and effective unit. You also have the flexibility of using whatever psychic discipline you need to get the job done. Telepathy, Maelific, Biomancy... you have some good options here. For the remaining 20 points, I'd probably invest in some meltabombs or something. The most obvious shortcoming of a list like this is the lack of armor-penetrating options. The two bike squads alone are not going to be enough to do the trick.
Fluff for Word Bearers using Sanctic Daemonology? Unmarked so not beholden to a certain God. In the fluff, Lorgar does some crazy things that don't fit with normal chaos psychic powers including shielding from a titan stomp and self healing ("The Betrayer" I think). I am not even sure if he is a psyker actually.
Sorcerers can take meltabombs just in case you are unlucky with not getting Hammerhand. Does Gate of Infinity get you out of combat?
Are Thousand Sons in the Black Legion codex? I kinda want to run the cabal and take a bunch of min squads of Sons in kitted rhinos as troops for the warp charges. Churn out pink horrors turn 1, then witchfire spam from fire support vehicles. Also, if the sorcerers are in vehicles next to sorcerers outside vehicles would that satisfy the need to be within range of each other for the extra warp charges?
Badablack wrote: Are Thousand Sons in the Black Legion codex? I kinda want to run the cabal and take a bunch of min squads of Sons in kitted rhinos as troops for the warp charges. Churn out pink horrors turn 1, then witchfire spam from fire support vehicles. Also, if the sorcerers are in vehicles next to sorcerers outside vehicles would that satisfy the need to be within range of each other for the extra warp charges?
You'd be better off taking a minimum CAD with two Cultists and a Sorcerer. It is 10 points more, but offers WAY more too.
I meant that the Warphost isnt necessary in the sense that there's more than one way to skin a cat. You'll definitely want more than 9 WC though. Probably in the 15-17 range minimum of you want to be competitive.
I have zero daemons. What I can have is Renegade and Heretics Rogue Psychers. They are Independent Characters who can not join any squads or even other Rogue Psychers. I think...I gotta check that.
The best way to run a Cyclopia Cabal from what I've seen is attached to a KDK hound unit with a Daemons CAD. Daemon CAD runs Fateweaver, Tzeralds and Horrors to pump up the WC count while being able to cast Grimoire on the Hound/Sorc unit. While a Gorepack isnt bad, I think that a KHerald and some min cultists from a KDK allied detachment is better, as it gives the star a challenge taker besides your valuable sorcerors, as well as a Locus giving you buffs (which actually do apply to the Heralds as well)
Yeah I think I'd definitely want a KHerald in there. Locos of Wrath will really make the damage stick on the big multi charges you'll need to pull off with a deathstar like that
astro_nomicon wrote: Doesnt seem completely necessary to me. There a variety of ways to build 20+ WC lists with the Cabal HoundStar
This.
I like the daemonic incursion for the warp storm manipulation and corrupted objectives.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
astro_nomicon wrote: I meant that the Warphost isnt necessary in the sense that there's more than one way to skin a cat. You'll definitely want more than 9 WC though. Probably in the 15-17 range minimum of you want to be competitive.
Horrors are a great way to get these charges. 1k sons are way to expensive to use for your psychic batteries.
You can get 15 WC off the cabal alone. Better than that even because you can get rerolls on them all, if you want it. I don't see the need to even use allied daemons, really, unless you just want to summon without perils. But I found with a Blood Host and the Cabal combined, you can bring a fair number of units in each turn. At least 1-2.
Last game I played, which lasted 4 turns, I summoned:
2 Squads of Bloodletters (Summoning)
2 Squads of 3 Bloodcrushers (One Blood Tithe, One Incursion)
1 Bloodthirster (Blood Tithe)
That was quite a lot, really. I dont' think you need too much more than that in a game. Shriek doesn't require much WC either, so batteries are not needed.
Sorc: VotLW, ML3, F Axe, Bike, Spell Familiar
Sorc: VotLW, ML3, F Axe, Bike, Spell Familiar
Sorc: VotLW, ML3, F Axe, Bike, (4++), Spell Familiar
Sorc: VotLW, ML3, F Axe, Jump Pack
So the idea is to have the Disc Herald either join the screamers or bounce between BLoS cover while Grimoiring either the hounds or screamers depending on terrain, match up etc. Foot Herald sits with the horrors and uses paradox to pump out a bargain summon a turn. Basically I really wanted the Grimoire and Paradox in the same list but is it trying to do too much? I figured the Grimoire would be necessary to go toe to toe with other deathstars and that the Paradox Herald would help shore up the lists relative weakness in progressive scoring scenarios.
With the new power they get, can you take over your own units if they were allies of convenience, or desperate allies. For example, if you took the cabal formation with Tau, can you take over your stormsurge unit, and shoot them then shoot them again in the shooting phase?
A page before someone asked what to do, if you only have access to a CAD + 1 Formation or Allied Detachment.
So i also want to ask, how can you build a good List with that restriction?
Thought about something like this for a 1500 Point Game
Cabal + KDK
3-5 Sorcerers (Jumppack or Bikes)
1 Jugger Lord or Herald
2x 8 Cultists
12-18 Hounds
Helldrakes (Baleflamer)
or with an CSMCAD. There you have access to Belakor and his awesome Telepathy powers^^.
Csm Lord on Bike or Jugger
2x 10 Cultists
5 Spawn (Mark of Nurgle)
rest of the Army as you wish
What do you think? Wich is the better shell for this Formation? I personally think that KDK is better if you are limited to 1 CAD + 1 Formation or Allied Detachment.
Cabal all on bikes
Sorc1: Black Mace, ML3, familliar, SoC, rolls on bio, target is Endurance, Iron Arm, Warp Speed.
Sorc 2: as above, But Force Sword, and Mark of Slaanesh, target is Hysterical Frenzy, if gotten early, go for missed spells.
Sorc3: As above, Force axe, target is Sanctic for Hammerhand and +1 invul, if gotten early, go for missed spells.
Gorepack
2×3 Bikers, dubble melta
20 puppies
CAD Lord, fist/claw, jumppack, Sigil, Daemonheart
OR
Sorc, Divination Relic, Bike, ML3, target for Misfortune and Precience
2×10 Cultists
Fill the rest with dakka support like Sicarans, Sonic Dreads or Spawn.
Spawns are (if taken) to be able to have bubblewrap if the deathstar needs to split up.
The reasoning for Slaanesh Marking is because Hysterical Frenzy is very good and the chance to get it is very high, other options are Tzeentch on the Lord for 2+/3++ or changing to Khorne and Axe of Blind Fury.
Im also not sure I'd be comfortable with running less than 4 Sorcs in the Cabal. Once you've invested that much into the houndstar you really have to commit to getting all the powers you need to making it nearly unkillable and as killy as possible since unlike its Imperial counterpart it doesnt have the luxury of casting on 2s or Hit and Run. Having some Daemon allies as warp charge batteries and summoners also seems like a good play to make up for a deathstar list's inherently low unit count
yes that is right you need to maximize your cabal power usually when i tried it i played never less than 4 sorcerers one of them of SL for the power hysterical frenzy
Can't you still take other marked lords/sorcs in a unit? The rule is that marked ICs can't join units with different marks to their own, but if one guy joins a neutral unit and another different marked guy joins that same neutral unit are they still clashing?
Badablack wrote: Can't you still take other marked lords/sorcs in a unit? The rule is that marked ICs can't join units with different marks to their own, but if one guy joins a neutral unit and another different marked guy joins that same neutral unit are they still clashing?
They would clash because those IC's count as part of the unit for all rules purposes and the condition checks if the unit has a different mark (not if the entire unit has a different mark)
How cultifo about 2 winged demons with MoN, 2 bloof cutists and an aegis defense line with 3 to 5 cultists .
Thstsstse cultists are cheap fodder for summoning plaguebears and drones, the princes meanwhile spread disease amongst the cabal sits behind the aegis manning the flakk guns sacrificing cultists for heralds.
CAD:
Fateweaver
HoT, Disc, Grimnoire, ML3
11 Pink Horrors
3 Nurglings
7 Screamers
AD:
CS Lord, Bike, MB, LC, Daemonheart
10 Cultists
5 Spawn, MoN CC:
Sorc, ML3, Bike, VotLW, SF Sorc, ML2, Bike, VotLW Sorc, ML2, Jumppack, VotLW
It has multiple fast, resilient and scary threats; decent summoning and a lot of flexibility. The list did rather well against a scary KDK list, Im going to try it out some more. Curious to see what other come up with.
I would imagine the better the opponent's codex, the better the Cabal does. Like there's probably a lot less scary shooting in a ork or chaos space marine list than in top eldar or tau lists.
I have been running the Cabal with KDK now for a number of games and the Hound Star is vicious. People seriously under estimate what that unit can do. It is too fast and too big to avoid.
I have been rrunning the Cabal with 3 Bike Sorcerers in 20 Hounds with a Jugger Hearld. 1 Slaneesh and 2 Unmarked. Hysterical Frenzy is great and I have been using a mix of Santic, Biomancy and telepathy in various games. Still not set on a particular discipline. But getting Hysterical Frenzy, Hammer hand and endurance on a unit was Brutal.
I have played a DarkAngel wolfstar, a demi company, and a scat bike eldar list and have torn them all up. Never under estimate the Cabal special power. I took over a unit of Scat bikes every turn and tore into his own ranks for 3 turns. They killed there own Farseer on a jet bike and his unit in two turns. Another battle had me popping a Landraider with his own melta marine.
My usual 1850 list consists of,
Cabal
3 Sorcerers on Bike Lvl 3 with Spell Familiar, SoC, 1 Marked Slaneesh.
I LOVE THIS LIST. The psychic dice are kinda low but with the Spell familiar you are almost always casting and making your opponent choose what to dispell.
Fateweaver has a neat trick with psychic scream, because you get to roll the 3D6 (not your opponent). If you roll 5,6,1 or a similar roll where 2 are high and one is low you can reroll the 1. Something to remember if there isn't anything more pressing to use the staff for.
Incursion fateweaver is also brutal for its high chance of +1 to invulns.
I LOVE THIS LIST. The psychic dice are kinda low but with the Spell familiar you are almost always casting and making your opponent choose what to dispell.
The Slaneesh Sorcerer is not to bad for the points. The inititive boost with the Hand of Darkness Relic is great for taking out models at a higher init. Also the Slaneesh powers aren't that bad, I have had great success with Hysterical frenzy and with Ecstatic seizures making a unit attack itself. It does make it difficult for your opponent to decide what to try and deny. Even Symphony of Pain can be useful to lower the Ws and BS of units, also after I target a unit with this and shoot them with the Knight the Knights gun is considered str 7 against that unit and it says unit so this can effect vehicles.. People always seriously underestimate the Slaneeshy powers.
I'd just feel dirty taking a Slaanesh mark in a unit of Khorne dogs though. I'll stick to unmarked... Telepathy is generally a nice way to go anyway to get Shriek. Useful against a wide variety of targets!
This is the Cabal list I was thinking of running (Spawn over Hounds because I have them)
Crimson Slaughter CAD
Lord - MoN, Fist/Claw, Daemonheart, Sigil of Corruption, Blight Grenade, Melta Bomb
Cultists
Cultists
Spawn x5 - MoN Daemon CAD
Fatey
LoC - Impossible Robes, Greater Reward, Exalted Reward, ML3
Horrors x12
Horrors x11
Cabal Sorc - Bike, ML3, Sigil, Force Axe, Familiar, VotLW Sorc - Bike, ML3, Sigil, Force Axe, Familiar, VotLW Sorc - Bike, ML3, Sigil, Force Axe, Familiar, VotLW
1847/1850
20 Psychic Dice to start, two FMCs, LoC has Grim to give Fatey 2++. Summoning is an option as well, thanks to Daemons being Daemons. What do you think?
Requizen wrote: This is the Cabal list I was thinking of running (Spawn over Hounds because I have them)
Crimson Slaughter CAD
Lord - MoN, Fist/Claw, Daemonheart, Sigil of Corruption, Blight Grenade, Melta Bomb
Cultists
Cultists
Spawn x5 - MoN Daemon CAD
Fatey
LoC - Impossible Robes, Greater Reward, Exalted Reward, ML3
Horrors x12
Horrors x11
Cabal Sorc - Bike, ML3, Sigil, Force Axe, Familiar, VotLW Sorc - Bike, ML3, Sigil, Force Axe, Familiar, VotLW Sorc - Bike, ML3, Sigil, Force Axe, Familiar, VotLW
1847/1850
20 Psychic Dice to start, two FMCs, LoC has Grim to give Fatey 2++. Summoning is an option as well, thanks to Daemons being Daemons. What do you think?
I'd swap votlw for melta bombs since spawn make you fearless anyway (will help against imperial knights and other AV 13 dreadnoughts and what not). Why not make crimson slaughter an allied detachment and drop 50 pts of cultists?
Edit: forgot you had to buy votlw because of being black legion, still I'd find some points to buy them meltabombs.
Requizen wrote: This is the Cabal list I was thinking of running (Spawn over Hounds because I have them)
Crimson Slaughter CAD
Lord - MoN, Fist/Claw, Daemonheart, Sigil of Corruption, Blight Grenade, Melta Bomb
Cultists
Cultists
Spawn x5 - MoN Daemon CAD
Fatey
LoC - Impossible Robes, Greater Reward, Exalted Reward, ML3
Horrors x12
Horrors x11
Cabal Sorc - Bike, ML3, Sigil, Force Axe, Familiar, VotLW Sorc - Bike, ML3, Sigil, Force Axe, Familiar, VotLW Sorc - Bike, ML3, Sigil, Force Axe, Familiar, VotLW
1847/1850
20 Psychic Dice to start, two FMCs, LoC has Grim to give Fatey 2++. Summoning is an option as well, thanks to Daemons being Daemons. What do you think?
I like it. Hounds are probably better because of Scout, more wounds and and reliability of attacks but overall it looks good. Majority T6 on the star is one bonus over the hounds. Chaos Hounds from the Fantasy range are a really cheap way to get a bunch but youd have to change your list considerably to fit them instead of the spawn. The other (and probably biggest) argument for hounds is that they are able to benefit from the Grimoire and Cursed Earth. My only suggestion for the list as is would be to swap the greater on the LoC for a Lesser. The +2S from the staff is too good to pass up IMO especially since it should be rather easy to have it rocking a 2++ rerollable which is plenty durable.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Is the Impossible Robe entirely necessary? It is a good artifact, but it could save you some points not taking it.
It's sick good. T6 FMC with 3++ rerolling 1s (and is very easy to bump to 2++) is really, really hard to kill.
Vomikron Noxis wrote:You won't be able to take the impossible robes and the grimoire either.
Whoops, good point. Fatey wants to fly anyway, so whatever.
wtnind wrote:
Requizen wrote: This is the Cabal list I was thinking of running (Spawn over Hounds because I have them)
Crimson Slaughter CAD
Lord - MoN, Fist/Claw, Daemonheart, Sigil of Corruption, Blight Grenade, Melta Bomb
Cultists
Cultists
Spawn x5 - MoN Daemon CAD
Fatey
LoC - Impossible Robes, Greater Reward, Exalted Reward, ML3
Horrors x12
Horrors x11
Cabal Sorc - Bike, ML3, Sigil, Force Axe, Familiar, VotLW Sorc - Bike, ML3, Sigil, Force Axe, Familiar, VotLW Sorc - Bike, ML3, Sigil, Force Axe, Familiar, VotLW
1847/1850
20 Psychic Dice to start, two FMCs, LoC has Grim to give Fatey 2++. Summoning is an option as well, thanks to Daemons being Daemons. What do you think?
I'd swap votlw for melta bombs since spawn make you fearless anyway (will help against imperial knights and other AV 13 dreadnoughts and what not). Why not make crimson slaughter an allied detachment and drop 50 pts of cultists?
Edit: forgot you had to buy votlw because of being black legion, still I'd find some points to buy them meltabombs.
With the new FAQ saying only 1 Melta Bomb per Assault Phase, having it on the Lord is enough.
i think cabal work better with lot of psy dice so your list could work but still think is better put cabal into units like KDK hounds, 15-20 hounds+cabal with proper psy power is nearly unkillable e deal lot of damage and it is so large it cant be avoided, 2nd turn you can always charge into something.
blackmage wrote: i think cabal work better with lot of psy dice so your list could work but still think is better put cabal into units like KDK hounds, 15-20 hounds+cabal with proper psy power is nearly unkillable e deal lot of damage and it is so large it cant be avoided, 2nd turn you can always charge into something.
I definitely agree, but like I said I have Spawn and don't have Hounds. Maybe in a month or so when I have cash.
So besides minor tweaks on the Houndstar and its supporting cast, what is the best way to play the Houndstar? More specifically how do you deploy against alpha strike armies (read: pretty much any shooty army nowadays) if not going first? Ive yet to see a list in this thread with reserve roll mitigation so even if choosing to outflank with reroll via a Slaanesh mounted Sorc, do you really chance coming in on 3+ reserve rolls? I suppose if youre bringing Fatey (which I do since I want the Grimoire in my list) you can dedicate his reroll to the reserve roll if its failed. If failed it sort of rules out using the Grimoire for that turn which is more or less acceptable I guess. If not Fatey or something along the lines of Bastion+Comms Relay then what? Leaving an unbuffed Houndstar on the table, even very conservatively deployed, against scatbike heavy eldar, Tau, Ad Mech, certain Marine builds etc, seems VERY risky. Unlike its Imperial counterpart, the Houndstar doesnt have anything like a buffed FNP Chapter Master to tank a lot of shooting. How do you guys deal with it?
I kind of want to run this formation allied to a Crimson Slaughter detachment with a Bike Sorc with the Prophet of Voices. Even if he has to ride solo, he's gonna have a 2+ inv/jink most of the time with the right spells/mutations, and being a daemon he can do all the heavy lifting when it comes to summoning with a familiar.
Also, how well would the Cabal work hiding behind rhinos and working their way up the field first turn? Cast Shroud, have the rhinos pop smoke, and you've got a 3+ wall of LOS breaking cover before they can hit your bikes. 3 rhinos going 12" then turning sideways should be able to cover a large amount of models.
I absolutely love the Cabal. It is the perfect formation against Tau.
I drop a Dreadclaw with a cabal in it into a gunline, split them all up and threw psychic Shrieks left and right.
Killed 3 riptides on the first turn, he didn't kill all of them (because quite frankly he had more pressing matters, seeing as an Infernal Tetrad was making its way to him) and the turn after they made a unit of broadsides run off the table and killed 2 units off pathfinders bare one model.
I ran against my friend's Houndstar Cabal list last week. It wasn't that effective against me - I ran Renegade Knight alongside a Decurion with 2 Canoptek Harvests, but he did manage to shoot a unit of Warriors into the side and Gauss off a couple hull points before I locked the Knight in with the Deathstar.
It's a very scary army against the right list. Tau and Eldar (especially with Stormsurges and Skathach Wraithknights respectfully) just cry against them. Assault armies are less worried, however. MSU armies aren't affected by Shroud of Deceit, but the Deathstar does Deathstar things and you have 3 Psykers with Spell Familiars to kill things in the Psychic Phase. I will expect to see this in a lot of events very soon.
- Cabal
Sorceror: ML3, VoLW, Bike, Spell Familiar, Axe, Melta Bombs
Sorceror: ML3, VoLW, Bike, Spell Familiar, Axe, Melta Bombs
Sorceror: ML3, VoLW, Bike, Spell Familiar, Axe, Melta Bombs
Sorceror: ML3, VoLW, Bike, Spell Familiar, Axe,
- KDK Allied
Herald: Juggernaut, Locus of Wrath
8 Cultist
18 Hounds
- Daemons CAD
Tzerald: ML3, Paradox
Tzerald: ML3
11 Horrors
11 Horrors
Fairly solid, but I do have a couple of recommendations. I'd put a jump pack on one of the sorcerors so that if he moves 6", he can use it in the assault phase to give reroll charge to the unit. Also, if possible, I would slap the Grimoire onto the other herald. Dropping a single ML and a bike to JP would give you points needed, or dropping 2 dogs. Looks good overall though.
I don't think the new FAQs are in effect so no rerolls from the jump pack. I am also reticent to bother with the Grimoire with out Fateweaver since a failed test is really detrimental. Hope to buff invuln with some combination of Cursed Earth, Sanctuary, and Forewarning
Still, if you're running a hound-cabal star you have 3 issues, knights, invis death stars and tar-pitting. My own solution would be to add both Kharn and Cypher.
Wow, another formation of 3-5 models falls to a massive, table-spanning deathstar.
Exactly, you can make a cabal for 195 points, trying to turn 2 wound models into an unkillable death machine is not the best idea just keep em cheapish and get some value out of them.
Wow, another formation of 3-5 models falls to a massive, table-spanning deathstar.
Exactly, you can make a cabal for 195 points, trying to turn 2 wound models into an unkillable death machine is not the best idea just keep em cheapish and get some value out of them.
Would that even be good? You're essentially then just using them as a dice battery. With 30" range on their formation power, you're probably still able to throw it out most turns, but I'm not taking the formation just for that - it's just an easy way to put 3 sorcerers in a list. Shroud is not to be underestimated but I'd maybe just take one sorcerer and beef him up if I were going to run this formation under 200 points.
Wow, another formation of 3-5 models falls to a massive, table-spanning deathstar.
Exactly, you can make a cabal for 195 points, trying to turn 2 wound models into an unkillable death machine is not the best idea just keep em cheapish and get some value out of them.
Would that even be good? You're essentially then just using them as a dice battery. With 30" range on their formation power, you're probably still able to throw it out most turns, but I'm not taking the formation just for that - it's just an easy way to put 3 sorcerers in a list. Shroud is not to be underestimated but I'd maybe just take one sorcerer and beef him up if I were going to run this formation under 200 points.
Well that's the naked cost. For a budget cost I would run them 1 with terminator armour and 3 spell familiars for ~260 points. Then either bunker them in spawn or plague marines or allied plague zombies (from IA13). It is cheap and gives you a source of AP2 instant death in your squads as well as 75% chance of psychic scream throwing only a single die (x3 because if they are split up they can all cast it). Terminator armour is mostly for aesthetics tbh but could be handy to take challenges in certain squads against certain enemies (but you obviously can't be in a rhino at that point).
Having them in 3 seperate squads really hedges your bets. What are we talking about here anyway though? its not like the cabal is going to let you win against wolfstar or scatterbike spam but it's a nice unit and one of the better options for CSM. And its good fun, like Mayhem Packs - sure they go wrong more times than they go right but they are a blast to use.
So to bring a rambling post back to the OP, cheese is relative. You can make a pretty decent deathstar with them but you probably still won't win against the best deathstars out there. But they are still strong against a number of lists (Tau and Eldar WK specifically) so against these the 'cheese' (though I'm not sure I'd call it that) would be to split them up to prevent them getting concentrated down allowing you to still mind control thier gargantuans for less points cost than the gargantuan cost them.
Is there a good way to do it with just KDK/CSM/Cabal (no demons) and still make it decent? My main issue is enemy knights and flyers. What should I be looking to do? This is kinda what I was working with. I've seen a bark star with Misfortune wreck everything, so I'm thinking a Crimson Slaughter detachment with a Sorcerer and Balestar is a good HQ to take, but I'm not sure what else is good with the CSMCAD that's worthwhile. Also, I've thought of Belakor for Guaranteed Invis and his Armorbane. (BTW I mainly play ITC style).
KDKCAD - Herald on Juggernaught and Hatred Locus
- 8 Cultists
- 8 Cultists
- 15 Khorne Dogs
Cabal
- Lvl 3 Sorcerer on Bike, Staff, VoTLW - Lvl 3 Sorcerer on Bike, Staff, VoTLW - Lvl 3 Sorcerer on Bike, Staff, VoTLW - Lvl 3 Sorcerer on Bike, Staff, VoTLW
Crimson Slaughter CAD - Lvl 3 Sorcerer on Bike with Balestar
- 10 Cultists
- 10 Cultists
- Chaos Knight of Khorne with Legacy of 1st War of Armageddon
Does this list actually have enough staying power to do anything other than not die?
Is there a good way to do it with just KDK/CSM/Cabal (no demons) and still make it decent? My main issue is enemy knights and flyers. What should I be looking to do? This is kinda what I was working with. I've seen a bark star with Misfortune wreck everything, so I'm thinking a Crimson Slaughter detachment with a Sorcerer and Balestar is a good HQ to take, but I'm not sure what else is good with the CSMCAD that's worthwhile. Also, I've thought of Belakor for Guaranteed Invis and his Armorbane. (BTW I mainly play ITC style).
KDKCAD - Herald on Juggernaught and Hatred Locus
- 8 Cultists
- 8 Cultists
- 15 Khorne Dogs
Cabal
- Lvl 3 Sorcerer on Bike, Staff, VoTLW - Lvl 3 Sorcerer on Bike, Staff, VoTLW - Lvl 3 Sorcerer on Bike, Staff, VoTLW - Lvl 3 Sorcerer on Bike, Staff, VoTLW
Crimson Slaughter CAD - Lvl 3 Sorcerer on Bike with Balestar
- 10 Cultists
- 10 Cultists
- Chaos Knight of Khorne with Legacy of 1st War of Armageddon
Does this list actually have enough staying power to do anything other than not die?
Thats a lot of points for 44 Toughness 4 (majority) wounds. Youre relying on Invisibility to protect them. What do you do if a IK charges your unit? AV13 will tarpit your entire deathstar for the whole game won't it? as it gradually stomps its way through them. Whats the plan for playing vs MSU lists? Or heavy ranged enemy that has a cullexus.
3+ to hit 4+ to glance with no possibility of explosions due to AP4.
Sorcerer with staff and pistol: 3 Attacks = 2 hits = 1 HP = 6 turns
2 Sorcerers = 3 turns
IK attacks back only with stomps
Each Stomp is
1/6 chance of nothing
4/6 -edit- these can be 'look out sird' so are actually not going to do anything
1/6 chance of killing sorc
Average is 2 stomps
~33% chance to instant kill a sorc per turn
So your chances are less than 50/50 in a best case scenario where you get iron arm on both sorcs and you are only against 1 IK and you have invisibility/ablaitive wounds to ignore his basic swings.
I'd say throw in Kharn the Betrayer into your death star if you might end up vs IK since he absolutely rocks at killing IK due to 2+ to hit and Armourbane. You just have to make sure he can pile in on the first round of combat. Plus he gets to punch out invisible people too. Does mean taking a CSMCAD though since you can't take him in daemonkin. Bel'kor also has better than 50/50 chances of taking out an IK but he has the same problem as bringing your own IK which is that if the knight charges your deathstar and the star wraps all around him you can block your own charge..
Yes - you can definitely add cypher to the cabal. Read the section in the rule book on non force org units, how they work in detachments and what formations are.
Good luck trying to get Cypher into a Cabal detachment in any place besides your basement. Formations tell you exactly what you can bring. The GW Unofficial FAQ even spells out the WYSIWYG part of the formations.
Massaen wrote: Funny - cause its completely legal at events here in AUS... much like adding a court of the archon to the get started DE formation.
the rule book very clearly tells us how to add non FOC units to detachments and formations are a type of detachment...
Here in the US, I am pretty sure the ITC format doesn't allow it. I've never seen it allowed, at least. If it were, I'd be able to take Techmarines in my formation detachments as an Iron Hands player. As it is, I am only allowed the extra tech marines in a CAD. At least, I am pretty sure it is ITC that doesn't allow it... could just be my local tournament organizers.
You aren't kidding. You pretty much have to clear everything with your opponent anyway... having "standardized" things like ITC format helps, but there are still some things you have to discuss every time anyway.
So assuming Cypher can't be taken in the Cabal and taking the HoundStar to the extreme, how does this look?
- Cabal
Sorc: ML3, VoTLW, Familiar, Force Axe, Bike
Sorc: ML3, VoTLW, Familiar, Force Axe, Bike
Sorc: ML3, VoTLW, Familiar, Force Axe, Bike, Melta Bombs
Sorc: ML3, VoTLW, Familiar, Force Axe, Jump Pack
Sorc: ML3, VoTLW, Familiar, Force Axe, Jump Pack
-CSMCAD
Sorc: ML3, Familiar, Force Axe, Bike, Balestar
Kharn
Cypher
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
- KDK Allied
Herald: Brazen Rune, Locus of Fury
8 Cultists
20 Hounds
Eggs in one basket indeed. Cypher for HnR and Shrouded, Kharn for anti SHW and being able to dish a modicum of pain to invisible units. Went with Locus of Fury (Rage) to help when going up against other death stars or if I reeeaally need one thing dead.
What do you think? Is there any other wargear I should be considering? Does it just suck? Keep in mind this is most likely going to be played in an environment that uses ITC list building criteria, but the GW draft, not ITC FAQs, so full blown invis, one grenade in assault, Jump pack allows reroll of charge distance etc.
Now that we have good confirmation about the new Heretic Astartes psychic powers, how does this affect the Cabal? I plan to run one with just 3 sorcerers on bikes with spell familiars, along with a KDK Juggerlord and Flesh Hounds. The powers are exactly the same as the Loyalist marine powers from Angels of Death, so my plan is to have one sorcerer roll all three of his powers on Sinistrum (equivalent to Librarius), mainly fishing for the equivalent of Veil of Time. The second guy would be rolling on Sanctic Daemonology, hoping for either Hammerhand or Sanctuary (or better yet, both!). The third guy would roll one power on Telepathy (if he gets Invis, fine, if not, he takes Shriek) and his other two on Biomancy, fishing for Iron Arm and/or Endurance. Assuming I got all the right powers (a man can dream, right?), this would be a very nasty deathstar. The hounds would have a 4+ rerollable invulnerable save, possibly being invisible or having 4+ Feel no Pain, and the Chaos Lord would be there to take challenges. Ideally there would also be a KDK Herald in the unit to give it Hatred, but finding points for that might be tough if you want other stuff in the list. Not as powerful or broken of a deathstar as the Superfriends Wolfstar, but nasty nonetheless.
I'm probably gonna stop running the Cabal, though. One or two sorcerers is enough for me, and there is room for that in the new detachment. However, with access to all these new carbon-copy powers that SM get, it does make the Cabal much more useful. Geomortis and Ectomancy sound pretty useful. Heretech would be awesome with an Iron Warriors themed force.
