Back when the Eldar codex initially came out (in fact, even prior to its official release, when bits and pieces of the codex were being leaked online), I remember the uproar on dakka forums. By and large, the Eldar release proved to be exactly the OP, game changing load of bull gak that the mathhammer guys thought it would be. Scatter bikes and wraithknights have, in fact, drastically changed the competitive meta, and even casual eldar lists tend to be pretty darned good.

At the time, I recall tons of threads being started about how evil the codex was and there were general calls of boycotts against, not only the eldar codex and eldar products, but also against eldar players.

In sum:

There were calls for tournament organizers to ban the 7th edition eldar codex, as well as calls to say "no" to casual pick up games with players using the 7th edition eldar codex.

So, several months later:

Has any of that actually happened? Have there been any tournaments, in your experience and local metas, which have actually banned any entire codices, eldar or otherwise, from tournament play?

Do you know any players in your local metas who outright refuse to play against Eldar, independently of the particular lists that the eldar player is using?

More broadly:

In your experiences and local metas, are there any tournaments which actually ban entire codices? Do you know people in your local metas who refuse to play against entire codices independently of unit selections?

I don't think any tournament would ever simple ban a whole Codex out of hand like that. The Eldar aren't so good that any list of theirs will demolish even the best lists other factions can bring. It all depends on the type of player using the army. Eldar has a lot of great options that are cost-efficient and can bring massive firepower to bear using fast moving elements.

Tournament players utilize all of these tools to the max when building their force (and rightfully so with money and prestige on the line, when logic assumes your opponents will similarly be bringing all their best toys.) That's fine and to be expected given the circumstances.

What's kind of dicky is when people bring that same tournament calibre army to a friendly pick up game to demolish everyone else. They are perfectly in the right, rules-wise, to do so but it somewhat goes against good taste. I always joked that if I was just out to smash people, I'd do it in a literal fight.

ITC did nerf Eldar.

 Gamgee wrote:
ITC did nerf Eldar.

How?

I don't play against Eldar. I don't find the games fun and would rather just screw around on my phone for 2 hours than waste my time in a game I know I won't enjoy.

I don't know of any events that ban any codex armies, however I know many players that will absolutely refuse to play against certain armies (though they're usually polite about it). I'll play any army but will often refuse games where I don't think it'll be any fun (e.g. running my DKoK Assault Brigade against a Decurion or competitive Eldar army or anything Gladius or War Convocation).

Don't know of any events. The word "codex" is typically treated as some kind of sacred magic word that means that a set of rules can never, under any circumstances, be banned. So people will talk about how much they hate a particular codex and wish it could be changed, but since it says "codex" on the cover nothing can be done about it. Meanwhile FW rules are regularly banned, regardless of their power level, because they don't have the magic "codex" word included. Needless to say this is a really stupid way of running an event, but that's how it is.

I've not seen anything beyond people swearing a cuss-filled oath, post getting rekt, about never facing an army ever again.
Usually happens with Eldar, but I've seen it with Inquisition aswell.
(But that's using a ruddy 5th edition Inquisition codex in 7th edition - Screw that)

Anyone that bans an entire codex is nothing more than a whiney crybaby, there are so far no codexs that break the game so bad banning them is rational, limiting units for sure go for it, but banning entire army's is stupid to say the least

Imperial Knights got Banned in a bunch of places when they came out, sometimes only banned as primary, but I think that's the first actual banning of a 'Dex (even if it/was a glorified dataslate reather than a codex).

Gamgee is right, sort of, they didn't nerf Eldar, but IIRC, the nerf to ranged str D was the first big change to the larger competative community that was ... accepted is probably not the right word, but it's close enough. Since eldar were the only ones to have access to ranged D outside of FW that was/is still banned at numerous events, it was a way of nerfing eldar without directly nerfing a single codex. Though as always, once you change something, it becomes easier to justify changing something else and now we have the rampant clusterfeth that the ITC has become with allegations of favouritism and bias that would make a GW codex writer proud.

There are quite a few people in my (non-ITC) meta who flat out refuse games against Eldar, some wholesale, some being dependant on the Eldar list, some being dependant on the players list.

One of our newer players bought serpent spam in 6th and switched to a mix of WK's, seer council min jetbikes and some scytheguard in 7th and wondered why he didn't get many games. I decided to make a point and played him with my Iron Warriors and was tabled in 3 turns (though that last turn was cleanup, I had maybe 5 models left). He saw nothing wrong with this. I played him again with skyhammer, culexus in a pod, marines and a firebase support cadre and tabled him in 2 turns (the 2nd was a formality, he had maybe 8 guys left on the table). He then understood what it was like to be on the recieving end of an asskicking since he was so used to flattening people since day one of playing that he just didn't realise how much it sucked.

While I don't personally refuse any codex, I have a few players I will not play and I have noticed a *ahem* certain "theme" in there armies. To prevent this thread going completely grox- crap crazy I will not say what codrx they share. But I am willing to give any player from this codex two games before judging them by there choice. Locally my favorite game I ever played was actually against eldar!

No problem with casual Eldar but I won't play against riptide spam, Wraithknight spam, IK, Wave Serpent spam, or any of their ultra competitive builds.

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
While I don't personally refuse any codex, I have a few players I will not play and I have noticed a *ahem* certain "theme" in there armies. To prevent this thread going completely grox- crap crazy I will not say what codrx they share. But I am willing to give any player from this codex two games before judging them by there choice. Locally my favorite game I ever played was actually against eldar!

This, I'll play against any army or codex but I might turn down a player.

I've never seen any army banned outright (forgeworld included) at my flgs. We generally play somewhat casually so if someone is too competitive we discuss this with them to see if we can find a common ground that we both enjoy playing. If there is no common ground shake hands and agree to play other people. I don't turn down armies, just players.

I don't play against eldar anymore. I tried to ignore the hate and superstition attached to the army and give them a solid go. I played mostly CSM at the time, so I'm already used to defeat. (Too many people here refuse to play against forgeworld, so I don't even bother to invest in it.)

That said, I still try to like 40k besides that. I join up in a progressive BEGINNER league to help teach some other players and generally get some small games in, which I tend to have a more fair chance in. League makes a rule preventing armor over a combined value of 33 until we reach 1000 pts, basically limiting people to rhinos because a vindicator or predator can be a lot to handle at 500 pts. Also means dreadnaughts and helbrutes are out of commision too.

2nd game of the league, 500pts, I have a biker lord, some cultists, some autocannon havocs, and 3 deepstriking terminators in true termicide style. My opponent brings farseer on bike with warlock and scatter bike entourage. He gets first turn and proceeds to remove two of three wounds off my lord as well as every other well painted and based model i had brought with me... with his grey half put together bikes. Game went two turns because he let me roll to DS my terminators in 1st turn out of pity. They came in but didn't make it to second turn.

I quit the league that day and went on my 40K hiatus once again. I worked the overnight before, stayed up way past my bedtime to play this game with him on the only day he could meet with me and then went home to put all my models on the shelf they love to collect dust on indefinitely . Good thing I didn't bring a predator, that would of been unfair.

So, as someone who actively tried to ignore the doom and gloom and give them a shot out of the spirit of the game, I will now happily refuse a game against eldar no matter the point level, player, or competitiveness of the list, and I'll smile while I do it.

My local meta did nothing in particular to Eldar. We don't use ITC and we vary our tourneys from month to month. Generally, we would only use 1 Gargantuan Creature, but we've had events where multiple GC were allowed.

The game didn't implode and Eldar didn't win every event, so not a lot changed.

I've had two friends who played Eldar and have subsequently dropped them due to finding it hard to get casual games. I even had to turn down games to him because it was a done deal, my Covenite Pain Engines just couldn't stand up to Str D and my Raiders couldn't stand up to...anything. They just weren't fun games. That friend has is now disenfranchised with 40K, preferring Warhammer Fantasy (Or now 9th Age) and the other dropped them to pick up Imperial Guard.

So I would say yeah, at least on a casual pick up game at the local GW store, Eldar players have suffered. I for one wouldn't play an Eldar army in a pick up game where i didn't know the guy, my Dark Eldar have suffered too much from last editions unkillable Wave Serpents and this editions unkillable Wraithknights that it's just not worth it.

I won't play against Imperial Knight players because I think an army of all super heavies is stupid in a skirmish style combined arms game. A single knight is fine but an entire 2000 point army of knights just isn't fun to play against.

As to the Eldar topic I think a lot of Eldar players have learned some restraint with the 7th edition codex as spamming Scatter Bikes, Warp Spiders, D scythe Wraithguard (with their Dark Eldar WWP escort), and/or Wraithknights will quickly piss of people and they end up not getting games. In general there are those players who value their own self satisfaction and then there are players who value their opponents satisfaction. The former tend to gravitate towards cheese builds because winning is more important than everyone having fun while the latter learn when to tone things down to compensate for inexperienced/less skilled players and/or a mismatch in codex power.

It can be hard to play Eldar in a more relaxed format. They get powerful, fast.

I brought Eldar to my last store’s escalation league. It was fairly casual. Didn’t get any complaints. They have always been my second army, but were back-burnered from sometime around 2-3rd edition until the 6th edition codex dropped. You need to know the level of game you are looking to play. I built for my more casual environment, and had fun games. Both my opponent and I. You can build curb-stomp list for any army, Eldar just default to that.

I've had no problems getting games but then I run an Aspect Warrior heavy list with a few foot slogging Wraithguard. Anybody that brings a full tournement list from any of the 2015 codexes to a friendly game needs a good smack on the back of the head, that is not cool.

 Traditio wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
ITC did nerf Eldar.

How?

Warp Spiders flickerjump was nerfed to once per shooting phase as opposed to whenever it's targeted.

I think alot of players just fail to adapt their armies to the meta imo.

I won't refuse to play against an entire codex, except pure IK's since as mention above, an entire army of SHW is just stupidly boring. Likewise, back in 5th, I refused in general to play against any Grey Knight army, unless my opponent agreed to not use any Warp Quake until T2 & toned down a lot of the other heinously stupid crap they could pull against Daemons.

I do know of events that have banned an entire codex, however, it of course the Imperial Knights codex!
Most events will allow a single Knight or other super-heavy/GMC within reason, (ie: actual Titans of all flavours are generally banned), however, I don't know of too many events that will actively allow a full army of 100% super heavies. (again, games where 80%+ of your army is effectively useless is just boring... sure you can win on objectives, but most of the fun of the game is also in removing mots of your opponent's models, which simply won't happen vs. 4-5 Knights.)

As for never playing against an Eldar opponent? I'll at least open my pie-hole for a few minutes and try to discuss what kind of game we'd like to potentially play.
Most Eldar players I've met over the years are decent people who realise their army is typically a 'cut above' the rest, and will have no problems leaving a couple of their more obnoxious toys in their case for a casual friendly game...
I mean, really, how hard is it to simply politely discuss with your opponent something along the lines of;
Me: "So I see you've got a Wraithknight alongside some MSU Scatbikes and a couple units of Spiders?"

Eldar Player: "Yep, it's my typical tourney list."

Me: "Well, my Tzeentch Daemons are a fluff bunny army, and I doubt I'd be able to give you much of a game... Here's my list if you'd like, maybe we can change a few things up to make the game a bit more fun?"

Eldar Player: "That's cool, I guess no.1 you're probably worried about Mr. Wraithknight?!"

Me: "Lol. Yeah, he's pretty beastly! Would you mind maybe going back to the previous rules for 1:3 Scatlasers on your Bikes as well?
And to keep things friendly, I'll re-roll Precog on my LoC so he's not completely bonkers, and my 'fighter' Tzherald here won't use the Herald or Greater Daemon summoning powers."

Eldar Player: "Yeah that sounds fair. I can take a couple of Wraithlords in place of the knight, and since your Tzeentch are mostly hopeless in combat, I can use some Scorpions for once!"

Me: "Sounds awesome, let's do this!"


It's really not hard to compromise...

Now against the local Marine players? Those are the typical TFG's in my experiences... Always whining about everyone else's "OP crap" and will only ever play optimised Gladius or Superfriends Deathstar builds.
A few Loyalist players have a heart, but for me, most of the WaaC's donkeycaves are the traditional whiney, over-entitled, spoiled Marine players, and not the Eldar & Tau crowd.

 sfshilo wrote:
I think alot of players just fail to adapt their armies to the meta imo.

I agree with this completely, definitely something I've noticed in this hobby is that it's easier to blame another book or Army then to look at what you have and make the best of it. Granted I'm not denying the fact that certain armies struggle greatly or have no shot against certain lists that the Eldar can bring but simple communication outside of a tournament format solves that issue quite easily I found.

In regards to banning Eldar that would never happen at my flgs, in fact you would probably be labeled "that guy" for demanding it. Most of us actually enjoy the challenge that Eldar bring as it forces us to change our tactics and become better players as a whole.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Now against the local Marine players? Those are the typical TFG's in my experiences... Always whining about everyone else's "OP crap" and will only ever play optimised Gladius or Superfriends D eathstar builds.
A few Loyalist players have a heart, but for me, most of the WaaC's donkeycaves are the traditional whiney, over-entitled, spoiled Marine players, and not the Eldar & Tau crowd.

I have noticed this as well and it is unbelievably annoying, especially considering they are another Top Tier army in the game and have certain builds that absolutely wreck Eldar Tournament Lists. Granted I think this is because newer players tend to pick up Space Marines as they are the poster boy / one of the easiest armies to build and play with but it has been my experience as well that Marine players are the ones that complain the most when they have zero reason to.

Experiment 626 wrote:


Now against the local Marine players? Those are the typical TFG's in my experiences... Always whining about everyone else's "OP crap" and will only ever play optimised Gladius or Superfriends Deathstar builds.
A few Loyalist players have a heart, but for me, most of the WaaC's donkeycaves are the traditional whiney, over-entitled, spoiled Marine players, and not the Eldar & Tau crowd.

Welcome to 40k, where spess mureenz are underpowered and everything else is op lol. it also sucks since mureenz are such a massive player base they have the numbers behind then to back them up. I don't see why people don't talk to their opponents before hand about their games, it's a game do change it to have fun with your opponent!

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
I will now happily refuse a game against eldar no matter the point level, player, or competitiveness of the list, and I'll smile while I do it.

You sound nice.

 sfshilo wrote:
I think alot of players just fail to adapt their armies to the meta imo.

Hrm, there's a lot that just isn't simply a matter of adapting. Take Eldar for instance. With their newest book, they were just made across the board stronger (from what was already a top tier army). There's nothing to adapt to, no new hidden weakness, no new trick hidden away to undercut them, you still fight and kill them the same way you always did, the Eldar just have far more impressive firepower and special rules to throw at you.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:


Now against the local Marine players? Those are the typical TFG's in my experiences... Always whining about everyone else's "OP crap" and will only ever play optimised Gladius or Superfriends Deathstar builds.
A few Loyalist players have a heart, but for me, most of the WaaC's donkeycaves are the traditional whiney, over-entitled, spoiled Marine players, and not the Eldar & Tau crowd.

Welcome to 40k, where spess mureenz are underpowered and everything else is op lol. it also sucks since mureenz are such a massive player base they have the numbers behind then to back them up. I don't see why people don't talk to their opponents before hand about their games, it's a game do change it to have fun with your opponent!

Tell me about it. There is one at my local club that thinks that the Imperial Guard are overpowered and that Leman Russ hulls should be limited to a maximum of three per army and Veterans should not be BS 4. On the other hand his four/five 30K armies (made mostly from proxied 40K models) is perfectly fine and his constant spamming of the most over powered combo's in the game is fair and balanced.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:


Now against the local Marine players? Those are the typical TFG's in my experiences... Always whining about everyone else's "OP crap" and will only ever play optimised Gladius or Superfriends Deathstar builds.
A few Loyalist players have a heart, but for me, most of the WaaC's donkeycaves are the traditional whiney, over-entitled, spoiled Marine players, and not the Eldar & Tau crowd.

Welcome to 40k, where spess mureenz are underpowered and everything else is op lol. it also sucks since mureenz are such a massive player base they have the numbers behind then to back them up. I don't see why people don't talk to their opponents before hand about their games, it's a game do change it to have fun with your opponent!

Tell me about it. There is one at my local club that thinks that the Imperial Guard are overpowered and that Leman Russ hulls should be limited to a maximum of three per army and Veterans should not be BS 4. On the other hand his four/five 30K armies (made mostly from proxied 40K models) is perfectly fine and his constant spamming of the most over powered combo's in the game is fair and balanced.

Is this the guy you tell stories about?

 master of ordinance wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:


Now against the local Marine players? Those are the typical TFG's in my experiences... Always whining about everyone else's "OP crap" and will only ever play optimised Gladius or Superfriends Deathstar builds.
A few Loyalist players have a heart, but for me, most of the WaaC's donkeycaves are the traditional whiney, over-entitled, spoiled Marine players, and not the Eldar & Tau crowd.

Welcome to 40k, where spess mureenz are underpowered and everything else is op lol. it also sucks since mureenz are such a massive player base they have the numbers behind then to back them up. I don't see why people don't talk to their opponents before hand about their games, it's a game do change it to have fun with your opponent!

Tell me about it. There is one at my local club that thinks that the Imperial Guard are overpowered and that Leman Russ hulls should be limited to a maximum of three per army and Veterans should not be BS 4. On the other hand his four/five 30K armies (made mostly from proxied 40K models) is perfectly fine and his constant spamming of the most over powered combo's in the game is fair and balanced.

IG can be pretty fething OP. With certain builds, it's pretty much all pie plates all the time.

No thanks.

pm713 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Is this the guy you tell stories about?

Yep. How did you guess?

Traditio wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:


Now against the local Marine players? Those are the typical TFG's in my experiences... Always whining about everyone else's "OP crap" and will only ever play optimised Gladius or Superfriends Deathstar builds.
A few Loyalist players have a heart, but for me, most of the WaaC's donkeycaves are the traditional whiney, over-entitled, spoiled Marine players, and not the Eldar & Tau crowd.

Welcome to 40k, where spess mureenz are underpowered and everything else is op lol. it also sucks since mureenz are such a massive player base they have the numbers behind then to back them up. I don't see why people don't talk to their opponents before hand about their games, it's a game do change it to have fun with your opponent!

Tell me about it. There is one at my local club that thinks that the Imperial Guard are overpowered and that Leman Russ hulls should be limited to a maximum of three per army and Veterans should not be BS 4. On the other hand his four/five 30K armies (made mostly from proxied 40K models) is perfectly fine and his constant spamming of the most over powered combo's in the game is fair and balanced.

IG can be pretty fething OP. With certain builds, it's pretty much all pie plates all the time.

No thanks.

Pie plates? tradito, no offence mate, but if pieplates scare you in this edition then you may be doing something wrong.

 master of ordinance wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Is this the guy you tell stories about?

Yep. How did you guess?

Traditio wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:


Now against the local Marine players? Those are the typical TFG's in my experiences... Always whining about everyone else's "OP crap" and will only ever play optimised Gladius or Superfriends Deathstar builds.
A few Loyalist players have a heart, but for me, most of the WaaC's donkeycaves are the traditional whiney, over-entitled, spoiled Marine players, and not the Eldar & Tau crowd.

Welcome to 40k, where spess mureenz are underpowered and everything else is op lol. it also sucks since mureenz are such a massive player base they have the numbers behind then to back them up. I don't see why people don't talk to their opponents before hand about their games, it's a game do change it to have fun with your opponent!

Tell me about it. There is one at my local club that thinks that the Imperial Guard are overpowered and that Leman Russ hulls should be limited to a maximum of three per army and Veterans should not be BS 4. On the other hand his four/five 30K armies (made mostly from proxied 40K models) is perfectly fine and his constant spamming of the most over powered combo's in the game is fair and balanced.

IG can be pretty fething OP. With certain builds, it's pretty much all pie plates all the time.

No thanks.

Pie plates? tradito, no offence mate, but if pieplates scare you in this edition then you may be doing something wrong.

Something about the fact I was questioning what kind of person does that kind of thing.

master of ordinance wrote:Pie plates? tradito, no offence mate, but if pieplates scare you in this edition then you may be doing something wrong.

Between wyverns, manticores and leeman russes and the metric feth-ton of pie plates which 1. can shoot across the table and 2. ignore LOS and 3. are often AP 3 or better, an IG army can be pretty intimidating/overwhelming for non-cheesestatic/super-competitive builds.

That's all that I'm saying.

pm713 wrote:

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
I will now happily refuse a game against eldar no matter the point level, player, or competitiveness of the list, and I'll smile while I do it.

You sound nice.

I'm quite nice, So was the player I played against. Even when he told me that he only plays Elder because he got tired of losing. I didn't hate the guy. I won't play him again, but I don't hate the guy.

I'm just so beat on and bitter that I won't do things that hurt me anymore. I think there is nothing wrong refusing to play against an army that won't let me go to turn two unless they dumb their list down to painfully boring levels. It's not really fair of me to say "I'll only play with you with you if dont play with scatbikes, wraithknight, or d-scythe wraithguard". It effectively invalidates the money they invested in their army and if I spent that much on the cool toys, I'd want to use them too.

So, it's just easier to refuse to play against the army as a whole instead of making someone cripple themselves to the point that it isn't enjoyable.

 Traditio wrote:

master of ordinance wrote:Pie plates? tradito, no offence mate, but if pieplates scare you in this edition then you may be doing something wrong.

Between wyverns, manticores and leeman russes and the metric feth-ton of pie plates which 1. can shoot across the table and 2. ignore LOS and 3. are often AP 3 or better, an IG army can be pretty intimidating/overwhelming for non-cheesestatic/super-competitive builds.

That's all that I'm saying.

Wyverns dont shoot pieplates and Leman Russ are widely considered to be extremely underpowered whilst Manticores havnt been around since 5th, baring their overpriced IA entry.

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
I will now happily refuse a game against eldar no matter the point level, player, or competitiveness of the list, and I'll smile while I do it.

You sound nice.

I'm quite nice, So was the player I played against. Even when he told me that he only plays Elder because he got tired of losing. I didn't hate the guy. I won't play him again, but I don't hate the guy.

I'm just so beat on and bitter that I won't do things that hurt me anymore. I think there is nothing wrong refusing to play against an army that won't let me go to turn two unless they dumb their list down to painfully boring levels. It's not really fair of me to say "I'll only play with you with you if dont play with scatbikes, wraithknight, or d-scythe wraithguard". It effectively invalidates the money they invested in their army and if I spent that much on the cool toys, I'd want to use them too.

So, it's just easier to refuse to play against the army as a whole instead of making someone cripple themselves to the point that it isn't enjoyable.

Mm immediately telling someone you won't play them based on your prejudice and enjoying it. How lovely.

 Traditio wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:


Now against the local Marine players? Those are the typical TFG's in my experiences... Always whining about everyone else's "OP crap" and will only ever play optimised Gladius or Superfriends Deathstar builds.
A few Loyalist players have a heart, but for me, most of the WaaC's donkeycaves are the traditional whiney, over-entitled, spoiled Marine players, and not the Eldar & Tau crowd.

Welcome to 40k, where spess mureenz are underpowered and everything else is op lol. it also sucks since mureenz are such a massive player base they have the numbers behind then to back them up. I don't see why people don't talk to their opponents before hand about their games, it's a game do change it to have fun with your opponent!

Tell me about it. There is one at my local club that thinks that the Imperial Guard are overpowered and that Leman Russ hulls should be limited to a maximum of three per army and Veterans should not be BS 4. On the other hand his four/five 30K armies (made mostly from proxied 40K models) is perfectly fine and his constant spamming of the most over powered combo's in the game is fair and balanced.

IG can be pretty fething OP. With certain builds, it's pretty much all pie plates all the time.

No thanks.

Lol no. Blasts suck in 7ed and so do all of the Guard vehicles that have them.

CrownAxe wrote:Lol no. Blasts suck in 7ed and so do all of the Guard vehicles that have them.

They don't suck against my poor devastator marines and tactical marines with heavy weapons who are sniping at things from a position of cover.

 Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:Lol no. Blasts suck in 7ed and so do all of the Guard vehicles that have them.

They don't suck against my poor devastator marines and tactical marines with heavy weapons who are sniping at things from a position of cover.

And as everyone has told you a thousand times before you are running a terrible army list. Terrible armies can beat other terrible armies.

pm713 wrote:

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
I will now happily refuse a game against eldar no matter the point level, player, or competitiveness of the list, and I'll smile while I do it.

You sound nice.

I'm quite nice, So was the player I played against. Even when he told me that he only plays Elder because he got tired of losing. I didn't hate the guy. I won't play him again, but I don't hate the guy.

I'm just so beat on and bitter that I won't do things that hurt me anymore. I think there is nothing wrong refusing to play against an army that won't let me go to turn two unless they dumb their list down to painfully boring levels. It's not really fair of me to say "I'll only play with you with you if dont play with scatbikes, wraithknight, or d-scythe wraithguard". It effectively invalidates the money they invested in their army and if I spent that much on the cool toys, I'd want to use them too.

So, it's just easier to refuse to play against the army as a whole instead of making someone cripple themselves to the point that it isn't enjoyable.

Mm immediately telling someone you won't play them based on your prejudice and enjoying it. How lovely.

It's not like I froth at the mouth and scream "Never eldar, Never again!" as I start cursing them and their brood as my eyes roll back. The skies darken and someone starts playing a pipe organ. The whole room starts speaking latin backwards as we slowly descend on the eldar player, hobby knives glinting in the now conveniently placed candlelight.

Its more like, "Hey want to play a game? I play eldar", they say. "No thanks, I don't have anything that can fight eldar and make it an enjoyable game for both of us", I say. Then we move on.

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
I will now happily refuse a game against eldar no matter the point level, player, or competitiveness of the list, and I'll smile while I do it.

You sound nice.

I'm quite nice, So was the player I played against. Even when he told me that he only plays Elder because he got tired of losing. I didn't hate the guy. I won't play him again, but I don't hate the guy.

I'm just so beat on and bitter that I won't do things that hurt me anymore. I think there is nothing wrong refusing to play against an army that won't let me go to turn two unless they dumb their list down to painfully boring levels. It's not really fair of me to say "I'll only play with you with you if dont play with scatbikes, wraithknight, or d-scythe wraithguard". It effectively invalidates the money they invested in their army and if I spent that much on the cool toys, I'd want to use them too.

So, it's just easier to refuse to play against the army as a whole instead of making someone cripple themselves to the point that it isn't enjoyable.

Mm immediately telling someone you won't play them based on your prejudice and enjoying it. How lovely.

It's not like I froth at the mouth and scream "Never eldar, Never again!" as I start cursing them and their brood as my eyes roll back. The skies darken and someone starts playing a pipe organ. The whole room starts speaking latin backwards as we slowly descend on the eldar player, hobby knives glinting in the now conveniently placed candlelight.

Its more like, "Hey want to play a game? I play eldar", they say. "No thanks, I don't have anything that can fight eldar and make it an enjoyable game for both of us", I say. Then we move on.

Which is the same as me just going "Oh you have Space Marines? No thanks I don't want to play. Grav spam sucks".

EVERYTHING IS OVERPOWERED, EVERYTHING SUCKS, WHY CAN'T MY ARMY EVER WIN, WHAT DO YOU MEAN IT MIGHT BE ME, THAT CAN'T BE RIGHT, IT MUST BE THAT EVERYONE ELSE'S ARMY IS OP!!!111ONe

Am I doing ti right?.

 Melissia wrote:
EVERYTHING IS OVERPOWERED, EVERYTHING SUCKS, WHY CAN'T MY ARMY EVER WIN, WHAT DO YOU MEAN IT MIGHT BE ME, THAT CAN'T BE RIGHT, IT MUST BE THAT EVERYONE ELSE'S ARMY IS OP!!!111ONe

Am I doing ti right?.

You need some kind of stupid comparison or flawed logic.

Oh, you're right! How embarassing!

pm713 wrote:

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
I will now happily refuse a game against eldar no matter the point level, player, or competitiveness of the list, and I'll smile while I do it.

You sound nice.

I'm quite nice, So was the player I played against. Even when he told me that he only plays Elder because he got tired of losing. I didn't hate the guy. I won't play him again, but I don't hate the guy.

I'm just so beat on and bitter that I won't do things that hurt me anymore. I think there is nothing wrong refusing to play against an army that won't let me go to turn two unless they dumb their list down to painfully boring levels. It's not really fair of me to say "I'll only play with you with you if dont play with scatbikes, wraithknight, or d-scythe wraithguard". It effectively invalidates the money they invested in their army and if I spent that much on the cool toys, I'd want to use them too.

So, it's just easier to refuse to play against the army as a whole instead of making someone cripple themselves to the point that it isn't enjoyable.

Mm immediately telling someone you won't play them based on your prejudice and enjoying it. How lovely.

It's not like I froth at the mouth and scream "Never eldar, Never again!" as I start cursing them and their brood as my eyes roll back. The skies darken and someone starts playing a pipe organ. The whole room starts speaking latin backwards as we slowly descend on the eldar player, hobby knives glinting in the now conveniently placed candlelight.

Its more like, "Hey want to play a game? I play eldar", they say. "No thanks, I don't have anything that can fight eldar and make it an enjoyable game for both of us", I say. Then we move on.

Which is the same as me just going "Oh you have Space Marines? No thanks I don't want to play. Grav spam sucks".

Which is totally fair. If you don't enjoy playing a game against space marines, then don't play against them. It's really that simple. I wouldn't get upset if someone didn't wan't to play against me because they are still traumatized from the "year of heldrake".

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
I will now happily refuse a game against eldar no matter the point level, player, or competitiveness of the list, and I'll smile while I do it.

You sound nice.

I'm quite nice, So was the player I played against. Even when he told me that he only plays Elder because he got tired of losing. I didn't hate the guy. I won't play him again, but I don't hate the guy.

I'm just so beat on and bitter that I won't do things that hurt me anymore. I think there is nothing wrong refusing to play against an army that won't let me go to turn two unless they dumb their list down to painfully boring levels. It's not really fair of me to say "I'll only play with you with you if dont play with scatbikes, wraithknight, or d-scythe wraithguard". It effectively invalidates the money they invested in their army and if I spent that much on the cool toys, I'd want to use them too.

So, it's just easier to refuse to play against the army as a whole instead of making someone cripple themselves to the point that it isn't enjoyable.

Mm immediately telling someone you won't play them based on your prejudice and enjoying it. How lovely.

It's not like I froth at the mouth and scream "Never eldar, Never again!" as I start cursing them and their brood as my eyes roll back. The skies darken and someone starts playing a pipe organ. The whole room starts speaking latin backwards as we slowly descend on the eldar player, hobby knives glinting in the now conveniently placed candlelight.

Its more like, "Hey want to play a game? I play eldar", they say. "No thanks, I don't have anything that can fight eldar and make it an enjoyable game for both of us", I say. Then we move on.

Which is the same as me just going "Oh you have Space Marines? No thanks I don't want to play. Grav spam sucks".

Which is totally fair. If you don't enjoy playing a game against space marines, then don't play against them. It's really that simple. I wouldn't get upset if someone didn't wan't to play against me because they are still traumatized from the "year of heldrake".

You missed the point a bit. I said the issue was with grav spam. If the person doesn't have grav spam then they've just been told to go somewhere else for no reason.

Been told that, laughed and told him Spaz Mutts don't have access to Grav let alone Grav spam.

I'm making an eldar army with wraithblades instead of wraithguard and dire avengers as troops instead of scatbikes. Is this purposely nerfing my army? Is this BAD? Is this worth not even playing me based on the fact that I'm even playing eldar?

I don't think you should completely disregard any army you 'can never win against' because how else will you learn if you don't try new tactics or army lists? Unless you know they're running a bunch of units you literally cannot touch (imp knights vs your army that you havent bought enough models for yet) I think its just a bad attitude to have.

And constantly changing your army for the meta isn't entirely possible either. Some say the only good ork army is a Zhadsnark bikespam list. I own zero bikes. Do I just sell my army and start over for the new meta? or do I just not even get a right to say anything in the matter because I won't dish out the money for a bike list? Its harder when they're a huge time and money investment into it as well.

 Traditio wrote:

master of ordinance wrote:Pie plates? tradito, no offence mate, but if pieplates scare you in this edition then you may be doing something wrong.

Between wyverns, manticores and leeman russes and the metric feth-ton of pie plates which 1. can shoot across the table and 2. ignore LOS and 3. are often AP 3 or better, an IG army can be pretty intimidating/overwhelming for non-cheesestatic/super-competitive builds.

That's all that I'm saying.

if you're deploying clumped up infantry outside of cover, sure, but then, such a deployment would meet a similar fate against just most armies at this time. IG pieplates arent scaring much of anyone these days, and aren't placing even into contention for finals spots (much less actual placing) at any major event I can recall. You'll get more infantry killing firepower out if a thoroughly middling Eldar army these days.

pm713 wrote:

Which is the same as me just going "Oh you have Space Marines? No thanks I don't want to play. Grav spam sucks".

Grav spam you say? Hah! my army are all wearing T-shirts, you lose.

pm713 wrote:AP4 is a drawback. Anything with 3+ armour will just laugh at the AP4.

No, AP 4 isn't a drawback. Yes, it permits 3+ or better armor saves. But that's not a drawback any more than AP5 on a bolter is a drawback. It's simply not an additional benefit that IG players have for that model.

That's a sizeable assumption about terrain.

Not really. If you're following the traditional GW guidelines on terrain, it's not that difficult. That said, we've had this discussion before, and I really don't feel like retreading that ground.

Plus if you're out of LOS your accuracy goes out the window.

Because there totally won't be psykers in that army. And no IG player would ever dream of interpreting the rules so as to allow prescience to re-roll scatter dice.

So you have a counter and refuse to use it? How typical.

What you're essentially telling me is that there is one and precisely one viable army concept in the SM codex. I take issue with that.

BA can counter this approach a few ways, so I know for sure that vanilla marines can.

Note that all these weapons bounce off chapter master smashfether.

Martel732 wrote:
BA can counter this approach a few ways, so I know for sure that vanilla marines can.

Note that all these weapons bounce off chapter master smashfether.

For what it's worth:

I wish to point out that all of the responses to my assertion that IG has OP builds is:

"You can beat it if you run a cheesy army. Why aren't you spamming more cheese?"

If I have to spam cheese to beat it, it's cheese and OP.

That's a truism.

 Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA can counter this approach a few ways, so I know for sure that vanilla marines can.

Note that all these weapons bounce off chapter master smashfether.

For what it's worth:

I wish to point out that all of the responses to my assertion that IG has OP builds is:

"You can beat it if you run a cheesy army. Why aren't you spamming more cheese?"

If I have to spam cheese to beat it, it's cheese and OP.

That's a truism.

I can beat it by fielding Rhinos and drop pods. Rhinos and drop pods I pay for, mind you. Will I always beat it? No. But I can.

 Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:AP4 is a drawback. Anything with 3+ armour will just laugh at the AP4.

No, AP 4 isn't a drawback. Yes, it permits 3+ or better armor saves. But that's not a drawback any more than AP5 on a bolter is a drawback. It's simply not an additional benefit that IG players have for that model.

What? Does it *need* to have a drawback? I suppose you'd hate on Tau plasma rifles because they have AP2 without Gets Hot too? Or on Sternguard Hellfire or Kraken Rounds because it only gets better than a standard bolter?

AP4 is a drawback because it limits it's effective targets.

That's a sizeable assumption about terrain.

Not really. If you're following the traditional GW guidelines on terrain, it's not that difficult. That said, we've had this discussion before, and I really don't feel like retreading that ground.

Again - guideline. Not rule. I deploy terrain how I see fit, or as the table permits.

Plus if you're out of LOS your accuracy goes out the window.

Because there totally won't be psykers in that army. And no IG player would ever dream of interpreting the rules so as to allow prescience to re-roll scatter dice.

Yes. Absolutely. My IG army has no psykers, and therefore never uses Prescience.

I still have no accurate non-LOS shooting.

So you have a counter and refuse to use it? How typical.

What you're essentially telling me is that there is one and precisely one viable army concept in the SM codex. I take issue with that.

No, I believe this means more "There is a certain combination that would make your battles easier, yet you won't do it."

It's like trying to scrub a patio with a toothbrush, rather than an yard brush, and complaining that the toothbrush takes longer than the yard brush.

I might also add that any triple stormraven list probably destroys this build as well.

 Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:AP4 is a drawback. Anything with 3+ armour will just laugh at the AP4.

No, AP 4 isn't a drawback. Yes, it permits 3+ or better armor saves. But that's not a drawback any more than AP5 on a bolter is a drawback. It's simply not an additional benefit that IG players have for that model.

Both are widely considered draw backs of their respective weapons. Lack of AP3 means most commonly used units will get saves against those weapons. There's a pretty good reason people don't spam bolter marines.

That's a sizeable assumption about terrain.

Not really. If you're following the traditional GW guidelines on terrain, it's not that difficult. That said, we've had this discussion before, and I really don't feel like retreading that ground.

Not everyone does. That's not a helpful answer.

Plus if you're out of LOS your accuracy goes out the window.

Because there totally won't be psykers in that army. And no IG player would ever dream of interpreting the rules so as to allow prescience to re-roll scatter dice.

Oh, so now the IG players are the one who automatically should have x unit in their army? I thought they were playing Codex: Imperial Guard not Codex: Primaris Psykers or Codex: Blast Templates.

So you have a counter and refuse to use it? How typical.

What you're essentially telling me is that there is one and precisely one viable army concept in the SM codex. I take issue with that.

Ultimately, quibbling over stats aside, IG pieplates aren't really scaring anyone. You don't see IG armies of any kind getting any higher than the middle of the pack (at best) in any large tournament (and usually mostly lumped in the bottom half of finishers), and even in casual games nobody is quaking in their boots at IG artillery.

IG artillery isn't all that impressive anymore. Other armies can bring similar, or superior, firepower to bear with far better support abilities, and do it while having greater overall army mobility and resiliency.

 Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:AP4 is a drawback. Anything with 3+ armour will just laugh at the AP4.

No, AP 4 isn't a drawback. Yes, it permits 3+ or better armor saves. But that's not a drawback any more than AP5 on a bolter is a drawback. It's simply not an additional benefit that IG players have for that model.

That's a sizeable assumption about terrain.

Not really. If you're following the traditional GW guidelines on terrain, it's not that difficult. That said, we've had this discussion before, and I really don't feel like retreading that ground.

Plus if you're out of LOS your accuracy goes out the window.

Because there totally won't be psykers in that army. And no IG player would ever dream of interpreting the rules so as to allow prescience to re-roll scatter dice.

So you have a counter and refuse to use it? How typical.

What you're essentially telling me is that there is one and precisely one viable army concept in the SM codex. I take issue with that.

Perhaps drawback is the wrong word. It is not a good thing considering that a lot of units don't care about it. To list some we have: All non Scout marines, SOB, Scorpions, Reapers, Shining Spears, Almost all MC's, Crisis Suits, Broadsides, Ghostkeels and more. Hardly great.

Define the GW guideline. As I recall last time you plucked a random rule from 4th. That's before we bring up the idea of something else being in the cover.

Because psychic powers are SO reliable and there wouldn't be anything else that would benefit more from prescience. Plus it sounds a little like you want to bend the rules there but I'm not familiar enough with the wording of blasts and prescience to say.

Not at all. There are several ways of playing Space Marines. What I'm saying is that you have a counter to a problem and ignoring it while whining. Allow me to make a comparison. My armies generally don't include much if any AA. This means that if I fight a flyer such as a Heldrake then it can do what it likes. What you are doing is complaining your army doesn't have an AA option when the reality is you're simply choosing not to use it.

 Traditio wrote:


snip

I love your delusion that IG are OP as feth, despite all evidence to the contrary. The only IG arty that's decent would be the earthshaker... assuming it didn't have a 36" minimum range or the LRBT if it wasn't ordnance. Now, that being said, it's fairly easy to bring most other lists from other codex down to their level (i.e., using devs/ASM instead of centurions, TFCs or a gladius)

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Traditio wrote:


snip

I love your delusion that IG are OP as feth, despite all evidence to the contrary. Now, that being said, it's fairly easy to bring most other lists from other codex down to their level (i.e., using devs/ASM instead of centurions, TFCs or a gladius)

It's super easy with marines. All of the canonical units now suck.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Ultimately, quibbling over stats aside, IG pieplates aren't really scaring anyone. You don't see IG armies of any kind getting any higher than the middle of the pack (at best) in any large tournament (and usually mostly lumped in the bottom half of finishers), and even in casual games nobody is quaking in their boots at IG artillery.

IG artillery isn't all that impressive anymore. Other armies can bring similar, or superior, firepower to bear with far better support abilities, and do it while having greater overall army mobility and resiliency.

So let's get this straight. There are people who go to large tournaments. Large tournaments where people spam the most broken gak that their codex has to offer.

And IG get "middle of the pack"?

Yes, IG have less OP, cheesy gak than other codices. But more than others. And given the fact that they are able to half-compete at all in a tournament (where pretty much only cheesy, OP gak is even an option), yes, I stand by my initial assertion: certain IG builds can be OP.

In fact, what you just said is literally a proof of it. If there were not OP IG builds, then they would not be able to even half-compete at large tournaments.

Yes, other codices have more OP builds.

But that doesn't take away the fact that IG has such builds also.

 Traditio wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Ultimately, quibbling over stats aside, IG pieplates aren't really scaring anyone. You don't see IG armies of any kind getting any higher than the middle of the pack (at best) in any large tournament (and usually mostly lumped in the bottom half of finishers), and even in casual games nobody is quaking in their boots at IG artillery.

IG artillery isn't all that impressive anymore. Other armies can bring similar, or superior, firepower to bear with far better support abilities, and do it while having greater overall army mobility and resiliency.

So let's get this straight. There are people who go to large tournaments. Large tournaments where people spam the most broken gak that their army has to offer.

And IG get "middle of the pack"?

Yes, IG have less OP, cheesy gak than other codices. But more than others. And given the fact that they are able to half-compete at all in a tournament (where pretty much only cheesy, OP gak is even an option), yes, I stand by my initial assertion: certain IG builds can be OP.

In fact, what you just said is literally a proof of it. If there were not OP IG builds, then they would not be able to even half-compete at large tournaments.

Yes, other codices have more OP builds.

But that doesn't take away the fact that IG has such builds also.

Care to give an actual example of such a list?

 Traditio wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Ultimately, quibbling over stats aside, IG pieplates aren't really scaring anyone. You don't see IG armies of any kind getting any higher than the middle of the pack (at best) in any large tournament (and usually mostly lumped in the bottom half of finishers), and even in casual games nobody is quaking in their boots at IG artillery.

IG artillery isn't all that impressive anymore. Other armies can bring similar, or superior, firepower to bear with far better support abilities, and do it while having greater overall army mobility and resiliency.

So let's get this straight. There are people who go to large tournaments. Large tournaments where people spam the most broken gak that their codex has to offer.

And IG get "middle of the pack"?

Note I said, "at best" and "usually mostly lumped in the bottom half of finishers".

Yes, IG have less OP, cheesy gak than other codices. But more than others. And given the fact that they are able to half-compete at all in a tournament (where pretty much only cheesy, OP gak is even an option), yes, I stand by my initial assertion: certain IG builds can be OP.

Only if you're deploying infantry in the open and clumped up, in which case most armies will seem OP.

In fact, what you just said is literally a proof of it. If there were not OP IG builds, then they would not be able to even half-compete at large tournaments.

If by "half-compete" you mean "might get a couple finishers in the top *half* out of 180 players". Looking at Adepticon, out of 180 players for the Championship qualifiers, the Highest placing for an IG army was...43. Out of the whole thing, only 2 IG armies were even in the top half with the bulk of IG armies placing below the top 50%. None made it anywhere near the Finals. That 43rd place finish is about the highest an IG army has made in recent memor. The LVO had a similar spread, with a top IG placing of 104th of 298 with the great majority below the top 50%.

Yes, other codices have more OP builds.

But that doesn't take away the fact that IG has such builds also.

Not according to any tournament results. If you're bringing a poorly built and deployed army and lose first turn, then sure IG can probably hammer that into dust, but then just about anything will seem OP at that point.

There's zero data to support the idea that IG have anything "OP" outside such circumstances. They have some stuff that isn't completely worthless, but that's not the same thing as being "OP".

One will notice that the top-end armies aren't using lots of blasts and pieplates, and what few they do use are on significantly different platforms with much better support than what IG bring. Pieplate spam just is not that functional in 7E. Raw rate of fire weapons matter a whole lot more.

 Traditio wrote:
So let's get this straight. There are people who go to large tournaments. Large tournaments where people spam the most broken gak that their codex has to offer.

And IG get "middle of the pack"?

Yeah. Behind SM, Eldar, Tau etc armies. Duh. Of course worse army is going to perform better. It's not total crap codex like CSM or orks but it's hardly good. Ergo middle of the pack. On a good day.

Not OP, not total crap. Sounds pretty good definition of middle.

IG are not OP. And that's coming from someone with an inferior codex. Please stop trying to push that idea.

Martel732 wrote:
IG are not OP. And that's coming from someone with an inferior codex. Please stop trying to push that idea.

I agree.

Back on to the Eldar Issue

As for grav and CM Smash, I only started bringing them when all 3 of my local eldar players started bringing scattbike+WK spam. The turning point was the "friendly" game where I asked the third player who I know has things other than WK+scattbike and I asked him to bring a list that didn't have them and I would bring a grav free list (since he loathes grav). At this time all I had was a few bike squads with grav in them to deal with mcs in a general sense (still don't have any grav cents). What does he bring to the game? Scattbikes and 4 WK. Something like this has happened more than once against the local eldar players as well as other eldar players. I have gotten sick of eldar and their scattbike+WK spam. It has gotten to the point I WON'T play against any eldar player. I don't trust them. As far as grav and smash goes, until I get IH back the way they are supposed to be with our Iron Fathers ect, I refuse to give up smash and grav. It is all I really have, and I do like to actually have a chance at winning. Our new formation/detachment doesn't help any either. Turns out having objective secured is just flat out better most of the time.

On a side note, it is really annoying to have a Eldar player complain about your IK army/list when he is bringing 3 to 4+ WK every freaking game. You have the single most absolutely broken GMC/SHV in the game and you are going to complain about my 4 or 5 IK that your WK+scattbike spam can table first turn if I give them a chance. REALLY?

@NorseSig while I can see the frustration with those players, please don't tar us all with the same brush! I've had eldar for years and I own one wraithknight and no scatter bikes. The Wraithknight has been used once, as I just wanted to make the model more than stomp face every game. I've had some really fun, even games even with CSM because I play fluffy and fun lists.

You can't tell me that a guardian battlehost with melee aspect shrines and an Avatar of khaine is OP!

It is all about the players, not the army. I'd wholeheartedly support you not playing those guys again, they seem like the WAAC types. But don't let them ruin it for the rest of us!

NG77 wrote:
@NorseSig while I can see the frustration with those players, please don't tar us all with the same brush! I've had eldar for years and I own one wraithknight and no scatter bikes. The Wraithknight has been used once, as I just wanted to make the model more than stomp face every game. I've had some really fun, even games even with CSM because I play fluffy and fun lists.

You can't tell me that a guardian battlehost with melee aspect shrines and an Avatar of khaine is OP!

It is all about the players, not the army. I'd wholeheartedly support you not playing those guys again, they seem like the WAAC types. But don't let them ruin it for the rest of us!

I have yet to play against, or even see, a list even remotely like this.

 Traditio wrote:

NG77 wrote:
@NorseSig while I can see the frustration with those players, please don't tar us all with the same brush! I've had eldar for years and I own one wraithknight and no scatter bikes. The Wraithknight has been used once, as I just wanted to make the model more than stomp face every game. I've had some really fun, even games even with CSM because I play fluffy and fun lists.

You can't tell me that a guardian battlehost with melee aspect shrines and an Avatar of khaine is OP!

It is all about the players, not the army. I'd wholeheartedly support you not playing those guys again, they seem like the WAAC types. But don't let them ruin it for the rest of us!

I have yet to play against, or even see, a list even remotely like this.

That's a shame. The best thing about Eldar being a powerful codex is that I can take the units I like while having a few powerful ones to do work as required.

You can really have some fun with the Eldar codex, min maxing and spam wastes all that. Most of my lists revolve around aspect warriors, I'm a biel tan fluff bunny, and my lists reflect that.

Admittedly I avoid playing in stores etc, I play with people I know and we set up our games in advance, with agreed upon levels of power, scenarios etc.

 Traditio wrote:

NG77 wrote:
@NorseSig while I can see the frustration with those players, please don't tar us all with the same brush! I've had eldar for years and I own one wraithknight and no scatter bikes. The Wraithknight has been used once, as I just wanted to make the model more than stomp face every game. I've had some really fun, even games even with CSM because I play fluffy and fun lists.

You can't tell me that a guardian battlehost with melee aspect shrines and an Avatar of khaine is OP!

It is all about the players, not the army. I'd wholeheartedly support you not playing those guys again, they seem like the WAAC types. But don't let them ruin it for the rest of us!

I have yet to play against, or even see, a list even remotely like this.

Well that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've never seen one of your OP IG lists. Yet apparently they exist.

pm713 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

NG77 wrote:
@NorseSig while I can see the frustration with those players, please don't tar us all with the same brush! I've had eldar for years and I own one wraithknight and no scatter bikes. The Wraithknight has been used once, as I just wanted to make the model more than stomp face every game. I've had some really fun, even games even with CSM because I play fluffy and fun lists.

You can't tell me that a guardian battlehost with melee aspect shrines and an Avatar of khaine is OP!

It is all about the players, not the army. I'd wholeheartedly support you not playing those guys again, they seem like the WAAC types. But don't let them ruin it for the rest of us!

I have yet to play against, or even see, a list even remotely like this.

Well that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've never seen one of your OP IG lists. Yet apparently they exist.

I'm guessing something "OP" Would be ~9 LRBTs/Wyverns/Basilisks, 2-3 maxed out guard blobs, and/or some vendettas with melta/plas vets. (which is only "OP" if you only take some MLs w/ Flakk as your only dedicated AT)

 Wolfblade wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

NG77 wrote:
@NorseSig while I can see the frustration with those players, please don't tar us all with the same brush! I've had eldar for years and I own one wraithknight and no scatter bikes. The Wraithknight has been used once, as I just wanted to make the model more than stomp face every game. I've had some really fun, even games even with CSM because I play fluffy and fun lists.

You can't tell me that a guardian battlehost with melee aspect shrines and an Avatar of khaine is OP!

It is all about the players, not the army. I'd wholeheartedly support you not playing those guys again, they seem like the WAAC types. But don't let them ruin it for the rest of us!

I have yet to play against, or even see, a list even remotely like this.

Well that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've never seen one of your OP IG lists. Yet apparently they exist.

I'm guessing something "OP" Would be ~9 LRBTs/Wyverns/Basilisks, 2-3 maxed out guard blobs, and some vendettas with melta/plas vets. (which is only "OP" if you only take some MLs w/ Flakk as your only dedicated AT)

If you could fit that in at anything less than 3K.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

NG77 wrote:
@NorseSig while I can see the frustration with those players, please don't tar us all with the same brush! I've had eldar for years and I own one wraithknight and no scatter bikes. The Wraithknight has been used once, as I just wanted to make the model more than stomp face every game. I've had some really fun, even games even with CSM because I play fluffy and fun lists.

You can't tell me that a guardian battlehost with melee aspect shrines and an Avatar of khaine is OP!

It is all about the players, not the army. I'd wholeheartedly support you not playing those guys again, they seem like the WAAC types. But don't let them ruin it for the rest of us!

I have yet to play against, or even see, a list even remotely like this.

Well that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've never seen one of your OP IG lists. Yet apparently they exist.

I'm guessing something "OP" Would be ~9 LRBTs/Wyverns/Basilisks, 2-3 maxed out guard blobs, and some vendettas with melta/plas vets. (which is only "OP" if you only take some MLs w/ Flakk as your only dedicated AT)

If you could fit that in at anything less than 3K.

Sorry, should have put an "and/or" in there, my bad.

I know one player who would outright refuse a game at any points level with Eldar. Personally, I would love to play against the Eldar, but there aren't many players who play them anyway.

The hate for Tau being overpowered is, whilst not unreasonable, is too much. Luckily, I find many people at my FLGS that want to play against me as they want to be able to use a list that they have never used.

My FLGS *kind of* has a ban. It's more of a restriction but it means you can't play a pure IK army. At their events, each player is only allowed up to one SHV/GMC. There's also a limit on the points cost for that one shv/gmc, which varies depending on the points level for the event.

Events below 1500 points are not allowed shv/gmc at all, 95% of the time.

BossJakadakk wrote:
My FLGS *kind of* has a ban. It's more of a restriction but it means you can't play a pure IK army. At their events, each player is only allowed up to one SHV/GMC. There's also a limit on the points cost for that one shv/gmc, which varies depending on the points level for the event.

Events below 1500 points are not allowed shv/gmc at all, 95% of the time.

Similar users have also said such things. Whilst it is frowned upon to use such lists in my FLGS, it has been known for people to do it. In fact, one of my last matches was 2000 points: Tau allied with Chaos vs IK and SM. Needless to say, the IK won.

I know some people at my LFGS who play tournament lists with Eldar and Tau are struggling to get games, as few people are even vaguely interested in playing against that. I would play them, but I play cultist hordes and CSMs, so I'm not even tournament practice for them.

With regards to IG being overpowered, they're the rock to footslogging MEQ's scissors, especially MEQs on 25mm bases. Put them in drop pods and rhinos, e.g. a GSF, and they maul any IG list, especially in Maelstrom missions.

 Traditio wrote:

NG77 wrote:
@NorseSig while I can see the frustration with those players, please don't tar us all with the same brush! I've had eldar for years and I own one wraithknight and no scatter bikes. The Wraithknight has been used once, as I just wanted to make the model more than stomp face every game. I've had some really fun, even games even with CSM because I play fluffy and fun lists.

You can't tell me that a guardian battlehost with melee aspect shrines and an Avatar of khaine is OP!

It is all about the players, not the army. I'd wholeheartedly support you not playing those guys again, they seem like the WAAC types. But don't let them ruin it for the rest of us!

I have yet to play against, or even see, a list even remotely like this.

Weren't you JUST complaining that everyone only views the marine codex as a couple OP minmaxed cheese builds?

Because there is a LOT of stuff in the Eldar codex that isn't D-weaponry, spiders and scatbikes... like, the same or more units than are in the Space Marine codex.

 Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA can counter this approach a few ways, so I know for sure that vanilla marines can.

Note that all these weapons bounce off chapter master smashfether.

For what it's worth:

I wish to point out that all of the responses to my assertion that IG has OP builds is:

"You can beat it if you run a cheesy army. Why aren't you spamming more cheese?"

If I have to spam cheese to beat it, it's cheese and OP.

That's a truism.

So Drop Pods packing melta guns are cheesy now?
Hugging cover is cheesy?
Not packing your Marines together like sardines in a tin is cheesy?

feth me, I've been a cheesy git this whole time and never knew!

BA being BA isn't cheesy.

 Gamgee wrote:
ITC did nerf Eldar.

completely false
All the itc did was nerd the 6 result on the str d table for all armies not just elder.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
ITC did nerf Eldar.

How?

Warp Spiders flickerjump was nerfed to once per shooting phase as opposed to whenever it's targeted.

according to gw that's how it should have always been played. It stated several times a flicker jump was a warpjump and a warpjump is limited to onc per turn.

 Lord Corellia wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA can counter this approach a few ways, so I know for sure that vanilla marines can.

Note that all these weapons bounce off chapter master smashfether.

For what it's worth:

I wish to point out that all of the responses to my assertion that IG has OP builds is:

"You can beat it if you run a cheesy army. Why aren't you spamming more cheese?"

If I have to spam cheese to beat it, it's cheese and OP.

That's a truism.

So Drop Pods packing melta guns are cheesy now?
Hugging cover is cheesy?
Not packing your Marines together like sardines in a tin is cheesy?

feth me, I've been a cheesy git this whole time and never knew!

Drop pods with Melta is not cheesy. Cheesy is triple Vindicator plus Libby conclave with invisibility, or free transports, or other such shenanigans.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Lord Corellia wrote:


So Drop Pods packing melta guns are cheesy now?
Hugging cover is cheesy?
Not packing your Marines together like sardines in a tin is cheesy?

feth me, I've been a cheesy git this whole time and never knew!

Drop pods with Melta is not cheesy. Cheesy is triple Vindicator plus Libby conclave with invisibility, or free transports, or other such shenanigans.

I know, but the assertion he was making is that large blast weapons with long range are overpowered and cheesy. Because Space Marines can't find a way to get to them. Or can't hammer back with their own artillery. And every large blast will kill a BAJILLION Marines. Because spacing them out isn't a thing.

 Lord Corellia wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Lord Corellia wrote:


So Drop Pods packing melta guns are cheesy now?
Hugging cover is cheesy?
Not packing your Marines together like sardines in a tin is cheesy?

feth me, I've been a cheesy git this whole time and never knew!

Drop pods with Melta is not cheesy. Cheesy is triple Vindicator plus Libby conclave with invisibility, or free transports, or other such shenanigans.

I know, but the assertion he was making is that large blast weapons with long range are overpowered and cheesy. Because Space Marines can't find a way to get to them. Or can't hammer back with their own artillery. And every large blast will kill a BAJILLION Marines. Because spacing them out isn't a thing.

Ahh sorry, I misread. Yeah, tradito plays a very weak army and seems to think that just because he has Marines that should automatically make him better than everyone else.