Early on in 7th ed, most people considered Eldar, Tau, Marines and Necrons to be the 4 top Tier armies. With all the new Marine rules form Angels of Death, the new Tau codices and the current Eldar codex, have the other 3 left Necrons in the dust? I ask because I see an increasing amount of banter around the OPness of Gladius, Riptide spam and Eldar, yet hardly anyone mentions Necrons anymore.

Locally, I don't see anyone playing Necrons that often.

Locally:
I stopped playing my Necrons when other players just automatically started cringing without even seeing what I put on the table.

Evidently anything that doesn't evaporate when Space Marines shoot it is too time consuming to kill to be "fun"

Conversely, everyone loves facing Orks, not matter what I field.

Competitively:
Going from 6th to 7th Necrons lost punch and gained survivability. Trading Crypteks with Haywire attacks, and Telsa everything, for basic attacks on harder to kill models.
A Necron player can now drown you in Scarabs with Reanimation protocols, but that type of army doesn't play fast, and tournament game run on a time limit.

 Galef wrote:
Early on in 7th ed, most people considered Eldar, Tau, Marines and Necrons to be the 4 top Tier armies. With all the new Marine rules form Angels of Death, the new Tau codices and the current Eldar codex, have the other 3 left Necrons in the dust? I ask because I see an increasing amount of banter around the OPness of Gladius, Riptide spam and Eldar, yet hardly anyone mentions Necrons anymore.

Locally, I don't see anyone playing Necrons that often.

Necrons still routinely place well, there's just nothing new to talk about.

Tau, SM's, and Eldar have all gotten new stuff of sorts since the Necron release so theyre a little more fresh, but Necrons dont appear to be dramatically dropping off in terms of power level. Likewise, none of the other armies have new abilities that are any more effective or interesting to use against Necrons than they were before really. Necrons just arent much of a conversation topic, theyre a rather boring army to face.

Yeah necrons have been pushed down to 'strong but not op' levels since space marines rocketed up to #1/2 spot. Necrons and daemons I would concider fairly close in power levels, edge to the necrons due to daemons randomness.

I'd say that makes no sense. Necrons are still OP they haven't gotten any weaker.

pm713 wrote:
I'd say that makes no sense. Necrons are still OP they haven't gotten any weaker.

When everything gets stronger, it shifts the balance. Compaired to Chaos or nids, sure they seem op, but to space marines (biggest by far playerbase), tau, eldar and daemons, they are weaker.

Most people generally don't talk about Necrons because it's not so much as they're OP as more they're incredibly annoying to face. The Decurion makes even the average warrior unreasonably durable for the cost. At least that's the majority of complains I hear.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Yeah necrons have been pushed down to 'strong but not op' levels since space marines rocketed up to #1/2 spot. Necrons and daemons I would concider fairly close in power levels, edge to the necrons due to daemons randomness.

This is about what I was thinking. With all the new stuff the other 3 got, plus the new Daemon toys, I'd agree that Daemons and Necrons are about the same Tier, just under the "Big 3"

 adamsouza wrote:
Locally:
I stopped playing my Necrons when other players just automatically started cringing without even seeing what I put on the table.

Evidently anything that doesn't evaporate when Space Marines shoot it is too time consuming to kill to be "fun"

Conversely, everyone loves facing Orks, not matter what I field.

Competitively:
Going from 6th to 7th Necrons lost punch and gained survivability. Trading Crypteks with Haywire attacks, and Telsa everything, for basic attacks on harder to kill models.
A Necron player can now drown you in Scarabs with Reanimation protocols, but that type of army doesn't play fast, and tournament game run on a time limit.

They are not fun. even for non Space marine armies.

but it seems that they cant really compete with the hot cheese right now. but they are still a brick wall to PUGs and stuff.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'd say that makes no sense. Necrons are still OP they haven't gotten any weaker.

When everything gets stronger, it shifts the balance. Compaired to Chaos or nids, sure they seem op, but to space marines (biggest by far playerbase), tau, eldar and daemons, they are weaker.

It only changes it if you're an OP army.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Most people generally don't talk about Necrons because it's not so much as they're OP as more they're incredibly annoying to face. The Decurion makes even the average warrior unreasonably durable for the cost. At least that's the majority of complains I hear.

I remember being told that having a T5 Nurgle Marine with a 3+ that, if failed, also got to roll a FnP 4+ was too tough to kill.

Oh how times have changed.

How are Tau still also called top level have I just missed them wining a big tournament or two?
I can see some finding them unfun to play vs like necrons but they seem to be level 2 with daemons
They can win but they are not eldar or SM

 Selym wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Most people generally don't talk about Necrons because it's not so much as they're OP as more they're incredibly annoying to face. The Decurion makes even the average warrior unreasonably durable for the cost. At least that's the majority of complains I hear.

I remember being told that having a T5 Nurgle Marine with a 3+ that, if failed, also got to roll a FnP 4+ was too tough to kill.

Oh how times have changed.

Average Necron Warrior is T4 with 4+ save, with 5+RP (4+ if your doing it right), is weaker in assaults in general, and specifically can't kill a dreadnaught if assaulted.

We're just seeing more Necron Warriors in the meta, so that is where the attention goes to.

Death Company are what T4, 3+ save, with FNP, much better in assault, but in a crap codex.

Oldmike wrote:
How are Tau still also called top level have I just missed them wining a big tournament or two?
I can see some finding them unfun to play vs like necrons but they seem to be level 2 with daemons
They can win but they are not eldar or SM

It depends on who you are. In the battle of have-stuff codices, I can see the Tau's issues. In haves vs have-nots, Tau are unimaginably frustrating. They are far more lethal than a Gladius.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 adamsouza wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Most people generally don't talk about Necrons because it's not so much as they're OP as more they're incredibly annoying to face. The Decurion makes even the average warrior unreasonably durable for the cost. At least that's the majority of complains I hear.

I remember being told that having a T5 Nurgle Marine with a 3+ that, if failed, also got to roll a FnP 4+ was too tough to kill.

Oh how times have changed.

Average Necron Warrior is T4 with 4+ save, with 5+RP (4+ if your doing it right), is weaker in assaults in general, and specifically can't kill a dreadnaught if assaulted.

We're just seeing more Necron Warriors in the meta, so that is where the attention goes to.

Death Company are what T4, 3+ save, with FNP, much better in assault, but in a crap codex.

DC also cost more.

 Selym wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Most people generally don't talk about Necrons because it's not so much as they're OP as more they're incredibly annoying to face. The Decurion makes even the average warrior unreasonably durable for the cost. At least that's the majority of complains I hear.

I remember being told that having a T5 Nurgle Marine with a 3+ that, if failed, also got to roll a FnP 4+ was too tough to kill.

Oh how times have changed.

and thats with 24ppm infantry that got their FNP entirely negated by ID or AP2 back in the day

Like said above, the main problem is Necrons are still strong, they're just boring and frustrating to play. A good friend of mine put it well: "I won't kill you outright, I'll just slowly grind you down to nothing".

As mentioned, this play style doesn't translate well to timed tournaments and generally don't make for fun games.

DC cost may cost 7 points more per model than a Necron warrior, but have higer initiative, 2 more attacks, better save, frag & Crack, grenades, Fearless, furious charge, rage, and relentless. They really should cost more, so I'm not really seeing your point. If warriors cost any more than they do, they would be overcosted for what they do.

ninja'd

 jreilly89 wrote:
Like said above, the main problem is Necrons are still strong, they're just boring and frustrating to play. A good friend of mine put it well: "I won't kill you outright, I'll just slowly grind you down to nothing".

As mentioned, this play style doesn't translate well to timed tournaments and generally don't make for fun games.

Pretty much. They lost all their best offensive toys in the transition from 6th to 7th.

Just not fun to play against.

-Warriors should just die.

-Wraiths should not be given the ability to only fail Invuln Saves on a 2+ and reroll 1s, then make a 4+ Reanimation, then reroll fails of a 1. Literally aids. (yeh I know..kill the Spider)

Just my opinion on how un-fun it can be playing against them.

 adamsouza wrote:
DC cost may cost 7 points more per model than a Necron warrior, but have higer initiative, 2 more attacks, better save, frag & Crack, grenades, Fearless, furious charge, rage, and relentless. They really should cost more, so I'm not really seeing your point. If warriors cost any more than they do, they would be overcosted for what they do.

On their own, sure. Once you add ubiquitous Decurion and Reclamation Legion bonuses (is anyone *not* running these?) and they get RP on 4's with rerolls on 1's and Relentless and MTC on top, they come rather absurd for 13ppm troops.

 WulfenClaw wrote:
-Warriors should just die.

Um..no.

Reanimation Protocols on Warriors, formerly I'll be back, is literally the defining characteristic of Necron Warrriors they had since their introduction to the game back in 2nd edition.

It would be like reducing Space Marines to 4+ armor because it's not fun playing against them and they make all those pesky armor saves.

So there is a formation that grants you a 4+ reanimation protocols on Wraiths... yes, Wraiths. And the ability to repair a Monolith but people still complain about Space Marines being rocketed...

 DalinCriid wrote:
So there is a formation that grants you a 4+ reanimation protocols on Wraiths... yes, Wraiths. And the ability to repair a Monolith but people still complain about Space Marines being rocketed...

More than one thing can be broken, calling out some of the Necron stuff for being overowered doesnt mean Space Marine stuff cant also be so and vice versa.

 WulfenClaw wrote:

-Wraiths should not be given the ability to only fail Invuln Saves on a 2+ and reroll 1s, then make a 4+ Reanimation, then reroll fails of a 1. Literally aids. (yeh I know..kill the Spider)

Where are they getting these rerolls?

 Vaktathi wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
DC cost may cost 7 points more per model than a Necron warrior, but have higer initiative, 2 more attacks, better save, frag & Crack, grenades, Fearless, furious charge, rage, and relentless. They really should cost more, so I'm not really seeing your point. If warriors cost any more than they do, they would be overcosted for what they do.

On their own, sure. Once you add ubiquitous Decurion and Reclamation Legion bonuses (is anyone *not* running these?) and they get RP on 4's with rerolls on 1's and Relentless and MTC on top, they come rather absurd for 13ppm troops.

Rerolls on 1's are only within 12" of the HQ model, and relentless and move through cover do what exactly for the Necron Warrior who's only weapon option is a guass rifle ? Relentless and Move Through Cover do Jack squat for increasing survivability.

You know what Necron Warriors are great for ? Sitting on objectives. Literally everything else in the codex is better at killing things.

Move through cover ? Oh so usefull when your sitting on objectives.
Relentless ? Yay, I can charge after shooting my Guass rifle ! WTF am I charging anything with my I2 A1 warriors ?

Are they a pain to remove from objectives ? Yes.
Are they offensively equal to a space marine ? No
Are they defensively superior to a space marine ? Yes , especially when in the right formations.
Do they crumble in assault against literally anything competent ? Yes
Do they counter standard ranged low AP MEQ killing meta ? Yes

 Vaktathi wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
DC cost may cost 7 points more per model than a Necron warrior, but have higer initiative, 2 more attacks, better save, frag & Crack, grenades, Fearless, furious charge, rage, and relentless. They really should cost more, so I'm not really seeing your point. If warriors cost any more than they do, they would be overcosted for what they do.

On their own, sure. Once you add ubiquitous Decurion and Reclamation Legion bonuses (is anyone *not* running these?) and they get RP on 4's with rerolls on 1's and Relentless and MTC on top, they come rather absurd for 13ppm troops.

They only reroll 1's when 12" from the Overlord, which isn't likely to happen because the Overlord is probably in a retinue that was meant to be at the enemy ASAP.

 EnTyme wrote:
Where are they getting these rerolls?

Reclamation Legion Formation allows re-rolls of 1's on Reanimation Protocols when within 12" of the Overlord

 EnTyme wrote:

 WulfenClaw wrote:

-Wraiths should not be given the ability to only fail Invuln Saves on a 2+ and reroll 1s, then make a 4+ Reanimation, then reroll fails of a 1. Literally aids. (yeh I know..kill the Spider)

Where are they getting these rerolls?

One of their Named HQs. Can't remember the name.

+ HQ +

Nemesor Zahndrekh
····Adaptive Tactics, Counter Tactics, Independent Character, Reanimation Protocols

Orikan the Diviner
····Chronoblade, Independent Character, Master Chronomancer, Reanimation Protocols, The Stars Are Right

++ Selection Rules ++

Adaptive Tactics: If Nemesor Zahndrekh is your Warlord, you may select a different Warlord Trait for him (no D6 roll is necessary) at the start of each friendly turn after the first - this replaces his existing Warlord Trait. This can be from the table in the Appendix, or any of the Warlord Traits tables in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. Zahndrekh cannot choose the same Warlord Trait more than once per game.
Chronoblade: The bearer of this weapon re-rolls all failed To Hit rolls in close combat.
Counter Tactics: Whilst Nemesor Zahndrekh is within 24" of any enemy unit(s) with any of the following special rules - Counter-attack, Furious Charge, Hit & Run, Split Fire, Stealth, Tank Hunters - then Zahndrekh and his unit also have the same special rule(s).
Independent Character
Master Chronomancer: Orikan and all models with the Reanimation Protocols special rule in his unit receive a +1 bonus to Reanimation Protocols rolls and can re-roll saving throws of a 1.
Reanimation Protocols: When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Reanimation Protocols roll to avoid being wounded. This is not a saving throw and so can be used against attacks that state ‘no saves of any kind are allowed'. Reanimation Protocols rolls may even be taken against hits with the Instant Death special rule, but cannot be used against hits from Destroyer weapons or any special rule or attack that states that the model is ‘removed from play'.

Roll a D6 each time the model suffers an unsaved Wound, subtracting 1 from the result if the hit that inflicted the Wound had the Instant Death special rule. On a 5+, discount the unsaved Wound - treat it as having been saved. Certain special rules and wargear items can provide modifiers to this dice roll; these are cumulative, but the required dice roll can never be improved to be better than 4+.

If a unit has both the Reanimation Protocols and Feel No Pain special rules, you can choose to use one special rule or the other to attempt to avoid the Wound, but not both. Choose which of the two special rules you will use each time a model suffers an unsaved Wound.
The Stars Are Right: Roll a D6 at the start of each friendly turn. If the result is less than the current turn number, Orikan uses the Orikan Empowered profile for the rest of the game. If Orikan suffered an unsaved Wound before becoming empowered, he will have 3 Wounds instead of 4.

Just some good fun right? ZzZzzzZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 adamsouza wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
DC cost may cost 7 points more per model than a Necron warrior, but have higer initiative, 2 more attacks, better save, frag & Crack, grenades, Fearless, furious charge, rage, and relentless. They really should cost more, so I'm not really seeing your point. If warriors cost any more than they do, they would be overcosted for what they do.

On their own, sure. Once you add ubiquitous Decurion and Reclamation Legion bonuses (is anyone *not* running these?) and they get RP on 4's with rerolls on 1's and Relentless and MTC on top, they come rather absurd for 13ppm troops.

Rerolls on 1's are only within 12" of the HQ model, and relentless and move through cover do what exactly for the Necron Warrior who's only weapon option is a guass rifle ?

having been on the receiving end of a full gauss fusillade followed up by an assault many times with multiple armies, quite a lot against comparatively priced and equipped units.

Not everything is a Wulfen or DC marine, or even a Space Marine at all. Against many Daemons, IG, Eldar, Tau, Skitarii, DE, Sisters, or AdMech units, or any rear AV10 vehicle, etc a double tap followed by an assault from Warriors is strikingly effective, and allows for additonal advancement and movement that they otherwise couldnt take advantage of. There's a whole lot of tactical utility there. Especially when coupled with an open topped Skimmer transport. This is like...Necron 101.

You know what Necron Warriors are great for ? Sitting on objectives. Literally everything else in the codex is better at killing things.

even if we accept this as true, it doesnt mean Necron Warriors are objectively terrible at killing things, especially equivalent role Troops units, it just means other units may be even better.

Move through cover ? Oh so usefull when your sitting on objectives.

If you literally never use them for anything else I guess. Its a minor thing, but when combined with Relentless can actually be quite useful, especially for *seizing* objectives.

Relentless ? Yay, I can charge after shooting my Guass rifle ! WTF am I charging anything with my I2 A1 warriors ?

anything that isnt a dedicated CC unit that you womped up on in the shooting phase first? A 10man unit will statistically overkill any rear AV10 vehicle near them with a Gauss doubletap and assault, anything like Sisters, most Eldar infantry, Scions, Skitarii, Guardsmen, SM's without a powerfist, etc are all excllent targets for such a maneuver, as are things like depleted Ork mobs. I see it used all the time. There are plenty of good targets for Relentless Warriors to assault.

 WulfenClaw wrote:


Master Chronomancer: Orikan and all models with the Reanimation Protocols special rule in his unit receive a +1 bonus to Reanimation Protocols rolls and can re-roll saving throws of a 1.

Can ICs be attached to beasts? And again, where are the Wraiths getting the re-roll on the invuln save?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 adamsouza wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
Where are they getting these rerolls?

Reclamation Legion Formation allows re-rolls of 1's on Reanimation Protocols when within 12" of the Overlord

I was referring to his comments on Wraiths getting re-rolls. If there is a way to get a re-rollable 3+ invlun and rerolls ones for RP on my Wraiths, I want to know how.

 adamsouza wrote:
DC cost may cost 7 points more per model than a Necron warrior, but have higer initiative, 2 more attacks, better save, frag & Crack, grenades, Fearless, furious charge, rage, and relentless. They really should cost more, so I'm not really seeing your point. If warriors cost any more than they do, they would be overcosted for what they do.

ninja'd

 jreilly89 wrote:
Like said above, the main problem is Necrons are still strong, they're just boring and frustrating to play. A good friend of mine put it well: "I won't kill you outright, I'll just slowly grind you down to nothing".

As mentioned, this play style doesn't translate well to timed tournaments and generally don't make for fun games.

Pretty much. They lost all their best offensive toys in the transition from 6th to 7th.

And yet necron warriors are still better models. DC are already pushing the envelope of unfieldably expensive.

 EnTyme wrote:

 WulfenClaw wrote:


Master Chronomancer: Orikan and all models with the Reanimation Protocols special rule in his unit receive a +1 bonus to Reanimation Protocols rolls and can re-roll saving throws of a 1.

Can ICs be attached to beasts? And again, where are the Wraiths getting the re-roll on the invuln save?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 adamsouza wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
Where are they getting these rerolls?

Reclamation Legion Formation allows re-rolls of 1's on Reanimation Protocols when within 12" of the Overlord

I was referring to his comments on Wraiths getting re-rolls. If there is a way to get a re-rollable 3+ invlun and rerolls ones for RP on my Wraiths, I want to know how.

Attach Orikan to the Wraiths and keep the Reclamation Legion Overlord within 12" of the Wraith unit.

Orikan enables the Wraiths to re-roll the 3++ when they roll a 1, so it's 50% as potent as a fully re-rollable 3++.

col_impact wrote:
Attach Orikan to the Wraiths

Hmm. For some reason I was thinking ICs couldn't be attached to beasts. Just checked the rules, and that's not the case. You're really slowing the Wraith down this way, though.

and keep the Reclamation Legion Overlord within 12" of the Wraith unit.

That benefit only affects units in the Reclamation Legion, so the Wraiths don't get it.

Orikan enables the Wraiths to re-roll the 3++ when they roll a 1, so it's 50% as potent as a fully re-rollable 3++.

You know, I always read that as the unit can reroll RP rolls of 1. Just reread it and you're right on this one. You're still dealing with the speed issue, though, and eliminating one of the strengths of the unit. You'd be far better served attaching Orikan to Lychguard with shields in my opinion.

Wraiths aren't part of the Reclamation Legion, they don't get to reroll the RP 1s with in 12" of the Overlord.

I usually run a Decurion with a canoptek harvest and destroyer cult. Then I'll stick the D Lord with Void Reaper with the Wraiths.

I would argue that properly built daemons beat necrons on the power list.

I stopped playing my necrons as everyone just complains when you put them on the table....

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'd say that makes no sense. Necrons are still OP they haven't gotten any weaker.

When everything gets stronger, it shifts the balance. Compaired to Chaos or nids, sure they seem op, but to space marines (biggest by far playerbase), tau, eldar and daemons, they are weaker.

Nah you are weaker compared to Marines but much stronger than Tau. Marines and their insane buffs after the new psychci powers and crazy death stars make me want to puke. An army that can take down Eldar consistently and their power creep is only going to get worse with more releases and formations as time goes by until the meta is drowned in marine combat. Bring on 8th and for the love of god let this all die in a fire.

Marines and Eldar are pushing out lots of armies now. It's getting harder and harder to win unless you play one of those two armies with their uber lists. Necrons have a better chance at that than Tau due to better mobility, objective secure, and survivability which makes you more viable in that scene. With decent firepower.

 adamsouza wrote:
Locally:
I stopped playing my Necrons when other players just automatically started cringing without even seeing what I put on the table.

Yup, this is my experience as well. I can put my best army list from either Daemons, CSM or Mechanicum on the table and no one bats an eye.
Put a single necron warrior on the table while unpacking and people are starting huffing about how OP Necrons are, regardless of the list.

Non-decurion Necrons really aren't that hard to kill and the firepower they bring is mediocre at best.

Necrons are strong in a casual environment, but since they didn't give us D and took away our GC (in an edition that is handing out D and GCs/SHVs like crazy), and the lack of powerful weaponry, Necrons are lacking in a competitive environment. Take into account the lack of a supplement and lack of Forgeworld support. Necrons are stronger than a lot of codexes, but that's about it. They've fallen into purgatory, as far as I can tell.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Necrons are strong in a casual environment, but since they didn't give us D and took away our GC (in an edition that is handing out D and GCs/SHVs like crazy), and the lack of powerful weaponry, Necrons are lacking in a competitive environment. Take into account the lack of a supplement and lack of Forgeworld support. Necrons are stronger than a lot of codexes, but that's about it. They've fallen into purgatory, as far as I can tell.

I play a lot of Necrons... I think you might be over-exaggerating on the lack of supplement stuff. Conclave of the Burning One+God Shackle seems to be fairly popular. The other formations from that book, I'm not sure, but at the very least it is there and not completely tossed aside like you're implying.

Qlanth wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Necrons are strong in a casual environment, but since they didn't give us D and took away our GC (in an edition that is handing out D and GCs/SHVs like crazy), and the lack of powerful weaponry, Necrons are lacking in a competitive environment. Take into account the lack of a supplement and lack of Forgeworld support. Necrons are stronger than a lot of codexes, but that's about it. They've fallen into purgatory, as far as I can tell.

I play a lot of Necrons... I think you might be over-exaggerating on the lack of supplement stuff. Conclave of the Burning One+God Shackle seems to be fairly popular. The other formations from that book, I'm not sure, but at the very least it is there and not completely tossed aside like you're implying.

It's the only supplement we have, and 2 of the 3 formations are worthless compared to the ones in the codex, the relics are sub-par and now can't be combined with other relics per the FAQ. It's also a shared supplement, which I'm a bit salty towards, personally. It coming out before the new codex did was a mistake in my opinion.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Necrons are strong in a casual environment, but since they didn't give us D and took away our GC (in an edition that is handing out D and GCs/SHVs like crazy), and the lack of powerful weaponry, Necrons are lacking in a competitive environment. Take into account the lack of a supplement and lack of Forgeworld support. Necrons are stronger than a lot of codexes, but that's about it. They've fallen into purgatory, as far as I can tell.

What about LVO 2016? 2 top 8 finishes doesn't sound like purgatory. Anyone who plays Tyranids can tell you what the definition of purgatory is...

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Necrons are strong in a casual environment, but since they didn't give us D and took away our GC (in an edition that is handing out D and GCs/SHVs like crazy), and the lack of powerful weaponry, Necrons are lacking in a competitive environment. Take into account the lack of a supplement and lack of Forgeworld support. Necrons are stronger than a lot of codexes, but that's about it. They've fallen into purgatory, as far as I can tell.

What about LVO 2016? 2 top 8 finishes doesn't sound like purgatory. Anyone who plays Tyranids can tell you what the definition of purgatory is...

When was the LVO this year?

And as a Tyranid player as well, I can certainly agree.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Necrons are strong in a casual environment, but since they didn't give us D and took away our GC (in an edition that is handing out D and GCs/SHVs like crazy), and the lack of powerful weaponry, Necrons are lacking in a competitive environment. Take into account the lack of a supplement and lack of Forgeworld support. Necrons are stronger than a lot of codexes, but that's about it. They've fallen into purgatory, as far as I can tell.

What about LVO 2016? 2 top 8 finishes doesn't sound like purgatory. Anyone who plays Tyranids can tell you what the definition of purgatory is...

When was the LVO this year?

And as a Tyranid player as well, I can certainly agree.

Here are the LVO results: https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/02/11/lvo-2016-40k-championships-results/

I think that while there have been new flavors of the month army-wise, a well-played Necron army still is plenty potent (especially for people who aren't expecting it, which may be part of how they do well).

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Necrons are strong in a casual environment, but since they didn't give us D and took away our GC (in an edition that is handing out D and GCs/SHVs like crazy), and the lack of powerful weaponry, Necrons are lacking in a competitive environment. Take into account the lack of a supplement and lack of Forgeworld support. Necrons are stronger than a lot of codexes, but that's about it. They've fallen into purgatory, as far as I can tell.

What about LVO 2016? 2 top 8 finishes doesn't sound like purgatory. Anyone who plays Tyranids can tell you what the definition of purgatory is...

When was the LVO this year?

And as a Tyranid player as well, I can certainly agree.

Here are the LVO results: https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/02/11/lvo-2016-40k-championships-results/

I think that while there have been new flavors of the month army-wise, a well-played Necron army still is plenty potent (especially for people who aren't expecting it, which may be part of how they do well).

If you're referring to the LVO that was in February of this year, then sure, Necrons did well. Against 6th edition Eldar, Tau, Space Marines. Since then we've had quite a few new codexes/supplements come out.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Necrons are strong in a casual environment, but since they didn't give us D and took away our GC (in an edition that is handing out D and GCs/SHVs like crazy), and the lack of powerful weaponry, Necrons are lacking in a competitive environment. Take into account the lack of a supplement and lack of Forgeworld support. Necrons are stronger than a lot of codexes, but that's about it. They've fallen into purgatory, as far as I can tell.

What about LVO 2016? 2 top 8 finishes doesn't sound like purgatory. Anyone who plays Tyranids can tell you what the definition of purgatory is...

When was the LVO this year?

And as a Tyranid player as well, I can certainly agree.

Here are the LVO results: https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/02/11/lvo-2016-40k-championships-results/

I think that while there have been new flavors of the month army-wise, a well-played Necron army still is plenty potent (especially for people who aren't expecting it, which may be part of how they do well).

If you're referring to the LVO that was in February of this year, then sure, Necrons did well. Against 6th edition Eldar, Tau, Space Marines. Since then we've had quite a few new codexes/supplements come out.

No that was all post 7th of all the army's Tau did not make top 16. This was pre SM new buff with the godlike powers and they still did well but eldar were King

 krodarklorr wrote:


If you're referring to the LVO that was in February of this year, then sure, Necrons did well. Against 6th edition Eldar, Tau, Space Marines. Since then we've had quite a few new codexes/supplements come out.

All of those armies had their 7ed update by this year's LVO

 CrownAxe wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:


If you're referring to the LVO that was in February of this year, then sure, Necrons did well. Against 6th edition Eldar, Tau, Space Marines. Since then we've had quite a few new codexes/supplements come out.

All of those armies had their 7ed update by this year's LVO

Wow it's been a long day. My bad, I was thinking of last year. Don't mind me.

 EnTyme wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Attach Orikan to the Wraiths

Hmm. For some reason I was thinking ICs couldn't be attached to beasts. Just checked the rules, and that's not the case. You're really slowing the Wraith down this way, though.

EnTyme wrote:
You're still dealing with the speed issue, though, and eliminating one of the strengths of the unit. You'd be far better served attaching Orikan to Lychguard with shields in my opinion.

Have you actually tested this out in a game? The Orikan-Wraithstar is the definitive way to run an Orikan-star competitively. The ICs don't really slow down the Wraiths. The Wraiths still get their Wraith flight and the ICs get Move Through Cover. Sure you have to lag a Wraith body to keep the ICs in coherence but they slingshot back towards the front in the charge move.

Absolutely big 4.

Also one of the most boring armies to play against. Fired a TFC battery at a squad on 10 immortals. 26 hits. 3 died. Hit a 15 man warrior squad with 2 BA vindicators. Both direct hits. I think there were 21 wounds under a 10/2 temp. 8 of them mummy-shuffled forward without flinching. I can beat them, bet regardless of who comes out on top, it's going to be a "death by 1000 cuts" game if we're doing KP.

As a side note they can absolutely keep up with cheese. They don't have the offense of Tau or Eldae, but some of their formations are definitely facepalm inducing. Hell, they can pull some pretty stupid crap without formations. Example: D-lord, in a 20 warrior unit, with a stalker with heat ray walking up behind. The Warriors are putting out up to 40 shots a turn, none will miss and no amount of equivalent point firepower is putting a dent in that unit. The walker will always have a 5 up cover guaranteed to delete at least 1 unit a turn (ANY UNIT) for less than 350 points

Played right or played cheese they can hold their own against anything.

col_impact wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Attach Orikan to the Wraiths

Hmm. For some reason I was thinking ICs couldn't be attached to beasts. Just checked the rules, and that's not the case. You're really slowing the Wraith down this way, though.

EnTyme wrote:
You're still dealing with the speed issue, though, and eliminating one of the strengths of the unit. You'd be far better served attaching Orikan to Lychguard with shields in my opinion.

Have you actually tested this out in a game? The Orikan-Wraithstar is the definitive way to run an Orikan-star competitively. The ICs don't really slow down the Wraiths. The Wraiths still get their Wraith flight and the ICs get Move Through Cover. Sure you have to lag a Wraith body to keep the ICs in coherence but they slingshot back towards the front in the charge move.

Considering how easy it would be to kite that daisy-chained unit, I don't see how this unit is ever able to get into charge range of anything you would actually be wanting to charge.

D lord with 20 warriors is incredibly powerful unit. Extremely hard to remove and it can remove some of the nastiest things in the game.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
. Example: D-lord, in a 20 warrior unit, with a stalker with heat ray walking up behind. The Warriors are putting out up to 40 shots a turn, none will miss and no amount of equivalent point firepower is putting a dent in that unit. The walker will always have a 5 up cover guaranteed to delete at least 1 unit a turn (ANY UNIT) for less than 350 points

How did you get "less than 350 points" ?

Destroyer Lord 110pts
Triarch Stalker 125pts
20 Necron Warriors 260pts

I'm no mathologist, so don't quote me on this, but that's looks a lot closer to 500 than 350.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Absolutely big 4.

Also one of the most boring armies to play against. Fired a TFC battery at a squad on 10 immortals. 26 hits. 3 died. Hit a 15 man warrior squad with 2 BA vindicators. Both direct hits. I think there were 21 wounds under a 10/2 temp. 8 of them mummy-shuffled forward without flinching. I can beat them, bet regardless of who comes out on top, it's going to be a "death by 1000 cuts" game if we're doing KP.

As a side note they can absolutely keep up with cheese. They don't have the offense of Tau or Eldae, but some of their formations are definitely facepalm inducing. Hell, they can pull some pretty stupid crap without formations. Example: D-lord, in a 20 warrior unit, with a stalker with heat ray walking up behind. The Warriors are putting out up to 40 shots a turn, none will miss and no amount of equivalent point firepower is putting a dent in that unit. The walker will always have a 5 up cover guaranteed to delete at least 1 unit a turn (ANY UNIT) for less than 350 points

Played right or played cheese they can hold their own against anything.

Uhh, Triarch Stalkers are not hard to remove.

 EnTyme wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Attach Orikan to the Wraiths

Hmm. For some reason I was thinking ICs couldn't be attached to beasts. Just checked the rules, and that's not the case. You're really slowing the Wraith down this way, though.

EnTyme wrote:
You're still dealing with the speed issue, though, and eliminating one of the strengths of the unit. You'd be far better served attaching Orikan to Lychguard with shields in my opinion.

Have you actually tested this out in a game? The Orikan-Wraithstar is the definitive way to run an Orikan-star competitively. The ICs don't really slow down the Wraiths. The Wraiths still get their Wraith flight and the ICs get Move Through Cover. Sure you have to lag a Wraith body to keep the ICs in coherence but they slingshot back towards the front in the charge move.

Considering how easy it would be to kite that daisy-chained unit, I don't see how this unit is ever able to get into charge range of anything you would actually be wanting to charge.

Dude. The Wraiths aren't slowed down so the unit is just as easy to kite as a Wraith unit with no ICs attached - which is damn near impossible to kite.

You should test it out. The Orikan-Wraithstar is proven in competition.

 adamsouza wrote:

Move through cover ? Oh so usefull when your sitting on objectives.
Relentless ? Yay, I can charge after shooting my Guass rifle ! WTF am I charging anything with my I2 A1 warriors ?

Err, that unit that is going to assault you next turn if you let it? Especially if the warriors are still near full strength, shooting, and then getting a charge off to deny the enemy their bonus attacks is a pretty decent tatic. Getting to throw near 40 attacks at a unit, after having hit them with near 40 shots, even a tough one with good saves, rerolls, and what not, is not something that can be just shrugged off.

Especially when the alternative is them getting the charge on you next turn, although near 40 over watch shots is a thing too.

No offense guys, but coming up with hypothetical situations where the stars align just right to make Necron Warriors charging feasible isn't going to change my mind about relentless being lackluster on a unit that is weak in melee and without heavy weapons. It's offensive use is situational at best, and it does nothing defensively.

I'd move them back 6", see if they can make the charge, and then take the 40 overwatch shots, because then at least Gauss does something, because I'm going to assume if my enemy is charging 20 Necron Warriors he's using something that can kill 20 Necron warriors, and not a half dozen Imperial Guardman, a lone grot, or half eaten doughnut.

Nobody was talking rare hypotheticals. Any time they're near most other infantry troops or rear AV10 vehicles (neither oc which are rare events) they have the opportunity to use that Relentless to great effect. I see it used almost every game I play against Necrons. And, on its own wouldnt be huge, but when combined with the resiliency factor, Gauss (when engaging vehiclrd), and open topped skimmer transports, it lends them a much greater versatility than you are acknowledging.

Lets look at an example. A 10man unit of Warriors with a Ghost Ark is fully capable of successfully weakening and then defeating a 30 strong Shoota Boy mob in CC. 10 will die from shooting on the way in on average between the Ark and Warriors,, the Orks may be lucky to kill one Warrior in Overwatch, the Warriors will kill 4 Boyz on average assuming 1 PK nob and 19boyz strike, the kill 2 Warriors back on average, Necrons win combat by 2, and then have an excellent chance to break and sweep the Orks.

I composed and then deleted a huge response.

Warriors can charge and beat things weaker than MEQs. When my warriors get to do that someday, I'll be happy about having Relentless, but it's still going to be a rarity, since the vast majority of players field MEQs, that's what they are likely to encounter.

Since my warriors tend to hold objectives in the back field, they don't often deal with cannon fodder troops. They are more likely to encounter deep striking shock troops, FMC's, and fast attack choices.

 adamsouza wrote:
I composed and then deleted a huge response.

Warriors can charge and beat things weaker than MEQs. When my warriors get to do that someday, I'll be happy about having Relentless, but it's still going to be a rarity, since the vast majority of players field MEQs, that's what they are likely to encounter.

Since my warriors tend to hold objectives in the back field, they don't often deal with cannon fodder troops. They are more likely to encounter deep striking shock troops, FMC's, and fast attack choices.

They'll beat basic MEQs as well, getting to rapid fire and charge is huge for them.
A full squad of let's say 10 Warriors will fire 20 shots, doing 13 hits, 6.7 wounds, ~ 2 kills
Take 8 attacks back (overwatch does a fraction, not going to calculate) at 4 hits, 2 wounds, 1 failed save, 0.667 or 0.5 (so between that and overwatch, let's round to 1)
18 attacks, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds, another 1.5 dead marines. So they might win combat (not terrible odds), are cheaper than the MEQ, and have killed 3-4 marines while the marines have killed one. The battle of attrition starts going in their favor from there.
Granted, they won't sweep, but its an amazing ability. I wish my chaos marines could do that.

I know this isn't a typical squad. A normal marine squad is more like 10 guys, 2 specials, 1 combi, which is closer to ~13-14 necrons and certain chapter tactics might make it worse. But normal marines aren't great anyway. Certainly, the better use for it is doing heavy damage to tau, eldar, or daemon units instead, but it does allow them to do damage.


That being said, Necrons are strong but boring. Nobody wants to play them. People would rather face my Iyanden or Aspect Host army than Necrons, and that is saying something.

 adamsouza wrote:
I composed and then deleted a huge response.

Warriors can charge and beat things weaker than MEQs. When my warriors get to do that someday, I'll be happy about having Relentless, but it's still going to be a rarity, since the vast majority of players field MEQs, that's what they are likely to encounter.

Since my warriors tend to hold objectives in the back field, they don't often deal with cannon fodder troops. They are more likely to encounter deep striking shock troops, FMC's, and fast attack choices.

As a Necron player who always uses the Decurion, I have to say that the Relentless is fantastic. It doesn't matter if it's a guardsmen or a terminator. I use it almost every game. Don't think they can kill MEQs? Okay. But you're more durable than them, and can stay locked in CC until you whittle them down or something comes to help.

hi guys,
im just a friendly player so forgive me if this is a silly question but ive seen several posts about how necrons are boring to play against. after reading it seems that this is because they are just hard to kill. is this the reason why theyre boring, becaue theyre hard to kill?
that makes them unfun to play against?

 adamsouza wrote:
I composed and then deleted a huge response.

Warriors can charge and beat things weaker than MEQs. When my warriors get to do that someday, I'll be happy about having Relentless, but it's still going to be a rarity, since the vast majority of players field MEQs, that's what they are likely to encounter.

Since my warriors tend to hold objectives in the back field, they don't often deal with cannon fodder troops. They are more likely to encounter deep striking shock troops, FMC's, and fast attack choices.

Warriors can beat meqs. It takes a while but they beat them for sure.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
hi guys,
im just a friendly player so forgive me if this is a silly question but ive seen several posts about how necrons are boring to play against. after reading it seems that this is because they are just hard to kill. is this the reason why theyre boring, becaue theyre hard to kill?
that makes them unfun to play against?

Yes.

When the Eldar player can't remove multiple units a turn with their D-weapons and Scatter Lasers, obviously there's something wrong with Necrons....

/sarcasm

 Xenomancers wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
I composed and then deleted a huge response.

Warriors can charge and beat things weaker than MEQs. When my warriors get to do that someday, I'll be happy about having Relentless, but it's still going to be a rarity, since the vast majority of players field MEQs, that's what they are likely to encounter.

Since my warriors tend to hold objectives in the back field, they don't often deal with cannon fodder troops. They are more likely to encounter deep striking shock troops, FMC's, and fast attack choices.

Warriors can beat meqs. It takes a while but they beat them for sure.

I've done the math on this. It depends on whether the MEQs (if we are talking marines here) use tactical/assault doctrines or not.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
hi guys,
im just a friendly player so forgive me if this is a silly question but ive seen several posts about how necrons are boring to play against. after reading it seems that this is because they are just hard to kill. is this the reason why theyre boring, becaue theyre hard to kill?
that makes them unfun to play against?

It's a combination of the army is tough and doesn't do anything interesting.

A typical game goes like this

1st, SM
Okay, so I drop in here and here, roll scatter, these guys rush up, those guys fire weapons, this unit teleports in and fire at these guys. I did...23 wounds this turn! Alright!

1st Necron
I made 6 armor saves and 11 RP rolls, you killed 6 guys.
My army moves forward. Those in range fire.

2nd SM
gak alright...dang. Okay, so these guys teleport back, those guys hide behind their pods a bit so you can't assault them, the pods fire, the rhinos move forward and block the troops. I fire again...I did 34 wounds!

2nd Necron
I make 11 armor saves and 10 RP rolls. Not bad, you killed 1 squad of warriors.
My troops fire on the transports and tanks and my wraiths charge your front line.


From here, the necron player will continue moving forward and firing gauss weapons while the wraiths chase targets down. They are boring. They don't have special rules (Tau) that are active, they don't have powers or weird combos (Eldar, Daemons), or a combination of the two (SM, Wolves to an extent). They just plod forward, charging what they can, assaulting what they can.
They used to be more dynamic with deathmarks, some equipment, and special characters but not anymore really. It's just decurion + lord + SC form 2 bubbles and move forward.

Alcibiades wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Warriors can beat meqs. It takes a while but they beat them for sure.

I've done the math on this. It depends on whether the MEQs (if we are talking marines here) use tactical/assault doctrines or not.

And they all know this.

Warriors I2 A1 4+& 5/4+++ They attack last, have a 50% chance to save IF the weapon has no AP4 or better, then get a 50% save for RP for a 25% casualty rate
ANY meq they fight has a 33% casualty rate, but attacks first, has the potential for a much greater number of attacks, and better wargear options, including AP2 weapons.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
hi guys,
im just a friendly player so forgive me if this is a silly question but ive seen several posts about how necrons are boring to play against. after reading it seems that this is because they are just hard to kill. is this the reason why theyre boring, becaue theyre hard to kill?
that makes them unfun to play against?

It's a big part of it. If you can't do anything to them, it feels very non-interactive, like everything you do just doesn't matter. The other part is, due to the obvious power advantages of the Decurion and relatively "fixed" nature of formations, Necron armies tend to be extremely uniform in nature, such that it feels like you're just playing minor variations on the same list over and over, and despite repeated exposure to what seems to be the same army all the time, there's often just no way to counter it effectively due to it's ability to just shrug everything off and the speed with which they can operate (contrary to many statements that Necrons are slow, they really are one of the fastest armies in the game between Wraiths, scarabs, flyers and flyer transports, jetbikes and relentless/MTC infantry with open topped skimmer transports)

 adamsouza wrote:
I composed and then deleted a huge response.

Warriors can charge and beat things weaker than MEQs. When my warriors get to do that someday, I'll be happy about having Relentless, but it's still going to be a rarity, since the vast majority of players field MEQs, that's what they are likely to encounter.

Since my warriors tend to hold objectives in the back field, they don't often deal with cannon fodder troops. They are more likely to encounter deep striking shock troops, FMC's, and fast attack choices.

Sure, if all you're facing is MEQ's with organic special CC weapons like powerfists in every unit, that might be fair. That said, a basic Decurion Warrior will defeat a basic Tac marine in CC a majority of the time despite striking second, so if the MEQ's don't have a hidden powerfist or aren't all sporting multiple attacks or something, they can still work, and against pretty much every other army in the game (and any rear AV10 tank) the Relentless Warrior has some incredible utility.

And you're ignoring the relentless advantage.

A marine can, at most, get 3 attacks at str 4. 1 pistol plus charge. A necron gets 4, 2 from rapid fire 2 from charging.

So really, a necron warrior gets +1 attack if charging and a better save, and is much more resistant to power weapons due to RP (which seems to also have been ignored). Since most of the better CC units have some way of ignoring armor, this makes necron warriors function as decent tarpits.

Akiasura wrote:
And you're ignoring the relentless advantage.

A marine can, at most, get 3 attacks at str 4. 1 pistol plus charge. A necron gets 4, 2 from rapid fire 2 from charging.

So really, a necron warrior gets +1 attack if charging and a better save, and is much more resistant to power weapons due to RP (which seems to also have been ignored). Since most of the better CC units have some way of ignoring armor, this makes necron warriors function as decent tarpits.

To be fair, Warriors don't auto-have Move Through Cover and Relentless. Only through the formations can they get those.

That being said, even with those rules, Warriors will still get swept against any dedicated CC unit unless backed up by a character.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
And you're ignoring the relentless advantage.

A marine can, at most, get 3 attacks at str 4. 1 pistol plus charge. A necron gets 4, 2 from rapid fire 2 from charging.

So really, a necron warrior gets +1 attack if charging and a better save, and is much more resistant to power weapons due to RP (which seems to also have been ignored). Since most of the better CC units have some way of ignoring armor, this makes necron warriors function as decent tarpits.

To be fair, Warriors don't auto-have Move Through Cover and Relentless. Only through the formations can they get those.

That being said, even with those rules, Warriors will still get swept against any dedicated CC unit unless backed up by a character.

I keep seeing this, and it bothers me. In all my games against Necrons (I have a buddy who plays them as his main, I've played roughly 50 games against him) I've swept his guys 1/5 times. Outside a Decurion, you still have to get past a non-ignorable 5+ FNP (at worst a 6+), most likely a Lord, do enough wounds, and hope they fail their LD 10. Can it be done? Sure, but most of the times I end up killing the unit through wounds rather than sweeping. Maybe if they didn't have LD 10 (compared to a Tac Marines 8??) I'd be more inclined to believe this.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
And you're ignoring the relentless advantage.

A marine can, at most, get 3 attacks at str 4. 1 pistol plus charge. A necron gets 4, 2 from rapid fire 2 from charging.

So really, a necron warrior gets +1 attack if charging and a better save, and is much more resistant to power weapons due to RP (which seems to also have been ignored). Since most of the better CC units have some way of ignoring armor, this makes necron warriors function as decent tarpits.

To be fair, Warriors don't auto-have Move Through Cover and Relentless. Only through the formations can they get those.

That being said, even with those rules, Warriors will still get swept against any dedicated CC unit unless backed up by a character.

I keep seeing this, and it bothers me. In all my games against Necrons (I have a buddy who plays them as his main, I've played roughly 50 games against him) I've swept his guys 1/5 times. Outside a Decurion, you still have to get past a non-ignorable 5+ FNP (at worst a 6+), most likely a Lord, do enough wounds, and hope they fail their LD 10. Can it be done? Sure, but most of the times I end up killing the unit through wounds rather than sweeping. Maybe if they didn't have LD 10 (compared to a Tac Marines 8??) I'd be more inclined to believe this.

Can Warriors be resilient? Yes. But everytime I stick in CC against a good unit, it's usually because of character support. Warriors on their own aren't that intimidating.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
And you're ignoring the relentless advantage.

A marine can, at most, get 3 attacks at str 4. 1 pistol plus charge. A necron gets 4, 2 from rapid fire 2 from charging.

So really, a necron warrior gets +1 attack if charging and a better save, and is much more resistant to power weapons due to RP (which seems to also have been ignored). Since most of the better CC units have some way of ignoring armor, this makes necron warriors function as decent tarpits.

To be fair, Warriors don't auto-have Move Through Cover and Relentless. Only through the formations can they get those.

That being said, even with those rules, Warriors will still get swept against any dedicated CC unit unless backed up by a character.

I keep seeing this, and it bothers me. In all my games against Necrons (I have a buddy who plays them as his main, I've played roughly 50 games against him) I've swept his guys 1/5 times. Outside a Decurion, you still have to get past a non-ignorable 5+ FNP (at worst a 6+), most likely a Lord, do enough wounds, and hope they fail their LD 10. Can it be done? Sure, but most of the times I end up killing the unit through wounds rather than sweeping. Maybe if they didn't have LD 10 (compared to a Tac Marines 8??) I'd be more inclined to believe this.

Can Warriors be resilient? Yes. But everytime I stick in CC against a good unit, it's usually because of character support. Warriors on their own aren't that intimidating.

But they're TROOPS. You don't see a problem wasting a CC dedicated unit on Troops? If I have to throw a deathstar at troops to make an impact, maybe there's an issue.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
And you're ignoring the relentless advantage.

A marine can, at most, get 3 attacks at str 4. 1 pistol plus charge. A necron gets 4, 2 from rapid fire 2 from charging.

So really, a necron warrior gets +1 attack if charging and a better save, and is much more resistant to power weapons due to RP (which seems to also have been ignored). Since most of the better CC units have some way of ignoring armor, this makes necron warriors function as decent tarpits.

To be fair, Warriors don't auto-have Move Through Cover and Relentless. Only through the formations can they get those.

That being said, even with those rules, Warriors will still get swept against any dedicated CC unit unless backed up by a character.

I keep seeing this, and it bothers me. In all my games against Necrons (I have a buddy who plays them as his main, I've played roughly 50 games against him) I've swept his guys 1/5 times. Outside a Decurion, you still have to get past a non-ignorable 5+ FNP (at worst a 6+), most likely a Lord, do enough wounds, and hope they fail their LD 10. Can it be done? Sure, but most of the times I end up killing the unit through wounds rather than sweeping. Maybe if they didn't have LD 10 (compared to a Tac Marines 8??) I'd be more inclined to believe this.

Can Warriors be resilient? Yes. But everytime I stick in CC against a good unit, it's usually because of character support. Warriors on their own aren't that intimidating.

But they're TROOPS. You don't see a problem wasting a CC dedicated unit on Troops? If I have to throw a deathstar at troops to make an impact, maybe there's an issue.

I'm not saying a deathstar. I'm saying anything with Ap4 in CC or better. Even with a Sergeant with a PF you could do a number.

Yeah I'm not saying they go in against a dedicated cc unit. I'm saying anything that isn't a dedicated cc unit won't take them down, and a typical necron army has a decent amount of dedicated cc units. Almost wolf levels if not more.

Akiasura wrote:
Yeah I'm not saying they go in against a dedicated cc unit. I'm saying anything that isn't a dedicated cc unit won't take them down,

So, okay. Let me get this straight. You're saying to try and take out a non-cc unit with another non-cc unit, and because Tac marines can't do it, there's a problem? Have you ever heard of Stab the shooty and shoot the stabby? That's like me complaining that my Immortals can't out-shoot Scatbikes. Necrons are tough, so don't play into their strength.

Now, if you're talking about getting charged by them, then look at it this way. Necron Warriors will probably tie you up (or make you run, in which case either result is good for space marines thanks to ATSKNF). If you're tied up, Necron warriors aren't shooting, and it's a tarpit. That is actually probably good for you, since our warriors are used to kill things such as Drop Pods and other vehicles.

and a typical necron army has a decent amount of dedicated cc units. Almost wolf levels if not more.

And no. Just no. Our CC is good, but not Wolf levels of good.

You are misreading, I didn't say the quality of units is at wolf levels, although it's not far off, I said the quantity of units is close. Which is true, wolves don't spam cc units, usually around 4 total at most. Wraiths are seen in similar numbers, and wolves can take just two units of twc easily if they want giving neurons the numerical advantage.

And while yes, ideally, you want to shoot the stabby and such, typically in most games this doesn't happen. People don't take much stabby, if they take any at all. Look at the most popular armies...eldar, tau, sm don't take much stabby. It's usually zero or one unit that is a star of some kind. Having a unit that can charge in and a non cc unit is completely viable in a real game.

Honestly in current 40k the only armies that can utilize that strategy are neurons and wolves, since they lean towards combined arms. Daemons maybe. Most of the stronger armies skew heavily, and catching a non cc unit in cc and holding them there till the wraiths arrive is gold.

Tac marines are neither shooty nor choppy. That's why they fail at every task they are given.

 adamsouza wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
. Example: D-lord, in a 20 warrior unit, with a stalker with heat ray walking up behind. The Warriors are putting out up to 40 shots a turn, none will miss and no amount of equivalent point firepower is putting a dent in that unit. The walker will always have a 5 up cover guaranteed to delete at least 1 unit a turn (ANY UNIT) for less than 350 points

How did you get "less than 350 points" ?

Destroyer Lord 110pts
Triarch Stalker 125pts
20 Necron Warriors 260pts

I haven't run crons since mid 6th. I asked my buddy how much the unit was and he gave me "about 350". Did mention he left out the stalker but in truth the stalker isn't contributing all that much unless you're rolling dice that have been weighted with 2s facing up. Hell even for 500 I can't think of any infantry unit that is guaranteed to kill a unit of anything from gaunts to russes in a single round of shooting, (sans scat bikes, but we all know what scat bikes do/are). Mind you this is before the charge.

Also, 4, Str 4 attacks from a 13 point model with a non-negotiable 4+ (5+ at worse) FNP is pretty stupid. Even in the wraith of formations . Even dumber when you consider half of them are gauss.

Don't think you can kill it? Tarpit it and bring in your robot homies to finish the job. Or tarpit and ignore. Good job. You just tied up a deathstar with 260 points of infantry. 260 points of infantry which your transports will likely generate elsewhere over the course of the game.

Alright, so a couple of things...

Dantes_Baals wrote:

I haven't run crons since mid 6th. I asked my buddy how much the unit was and he gave me "about 350". Did mention he left out the stalker but in truth the stalker isn't contributing all that much unless you're rolling dice that have been weighted with 2s facing up. Hell even for 500 I can't think of any infantry unit that is guaranteed to kill a unit of anything from gaunts to russes in a single round of shooting, (sans scat bikes, but we all know what scat bikes do/are). Mind you this is before the charge.

Centurion Devastators with Grav Cannons and Hurricane Bolters? Tacticals with a Metla gun and Drop pod? And before you say "A metla gun isn't guaranteed to kill a vehicle", neither is Gauss. Any Necron player will tell you how much "rely" on Gauss as a means to kill vehicles. Just because it can doesn't mean it will.

Also, 4, Str 4 attacks from a 13 point model with a non-negotiable 4+ (5+ at worse) FNP is pretty stupid. Even in the wraith of formations . Even dumber when you consider half of them are gauss.

In an army with lack of 2+ saves and no invisibility? Not that dumb. And before you enter with your rebuttal, I've fought Dark Eldar MCs with T7 and 4+ FNP, Centurion Devastators with 2+/4+ FNP, I've also fought Smashfucker with his shenanigans. Then you have Riptides, Stormsurges, Wraithknights, ext. Reanimation Protocols is strong, but at this point in 7th edition, it isn't that "stupid".

Don't think you can kill it? Tarpit it and bring in your robot homies to finish the job. Or tarpit and ignore.

Oh look at that, the only way Necrons can deal with a lot of things in game currently, since we don't have D or Grav or psychic powers or spammable high strength/low ap weaponry. Darn us for having at least something we can do.

Good job. You just tied up a deathstar with 260 points of infantry.

I wouldn't consider it a deathstar if warriors can tie it up. Seriously, what kind of deathstar are you fielding?

260 points of infantry which your transports will likely generate elsewhere over the course of the game.

If you have trouble killing a Ghost Ark, then I don't know what to say to you.


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Martel732 wrote:
Tac marines are neither shooty nor choppy. That's why they fail at every task they are given.

Except taking objectives and winning the game with points. That tends to happen.

Okay a couple of things.

Can Grav cents kill a swarm on 30 gaunts 1 turn then a full squadron of russes the next? Nope. I'm not ragging on the crons durability like most. I'm ragging on the fact that they are the most versatile troops in the game that are harder to kill than marines with stormshields with a higher damage output.

Speaking on durability I know it's the necrons thing, but when you have 13 point models with 4+RPs, rerolling ones is dumb. Especially with all the other bonuses they get from decurion. I can't think of anyone who would argue that with a straight face. I'm fine with necrons being tough. Not as much with their foot infantry that cost as much as a Genestealer being as tough as smashfuckers retinue without the bikes. And before you start in on marines keep in mind not everyone is a WA AC running IH.

You know what kind of deathstars get tarpitted, by 260 points of space mummies? Any kind of deathstar in a 1250 game or less.

Also I don't know what kind of cheating marines e players you've been playing with, but tacs get 2 melta shots when they disembark. 3 if they're Ultras using devestator doctrine on tac marines (why?). So under most circumstances if one misses he's got about a 2/3 chance to pop A tank. That's if the melta roll doesn't go south. They aren't deleting squadrons in a single shooting phase with 40+ haywire shots that reroll 1st on BS4/5 etc.

Lastly, I never complained about ghost arks. I just stated that using a big unit of warriors as a tarpit or sacrificial unit isn't really a loss at all because the those Warriors will show up elsewhere... but by all means man, keep putting words in my mouth. It doesn't make your argument look weak at all...

Dantes_Baals wrote:

Can Grav cents kill a swarm on 30 gaunts 1 turn then a full squadron of russes the next?

Umm, Scatbikes can do the first. But otherwise, Grav Cents have a better chance of taking out a squadron of tanks than Warriors do. And to boot, if we're talking about the Destroyer Lord joining them, that becomes a much more expensive unit than your Grav Cents.

I'm ragging on the fact that they are the most versatile troops in the game

Versatile. You are correct. They have a rather unreliable way of killing vehicles. Good thing we have all of our Grav, D, Melta, Haywire, and everything else to take care of vehicles. Oh wait, that's not us.

that are harder to kill than marines with stormshields with a higher damage output.

This is just false.

Speaking on durability I know it's the necrons thing, but when you have 13 point models with 4+RPs, rerolling ones is dumb. Especially with all the other bonuses they get from decurion. I can't think of anyone who would argue that with a straight face. I'm fine with necrons being tough. Not as much with their foot infantry that cost as much as a Genestealer being as tough as smashfuckers retinue without the bikes. And before you start in on marines keep in mind not everyone is a WA AC running IH.

Genestealers are a bad example, as everyone knows they're terrible. And I wish my warriors were as tough as that retinue. Too bad if that retinue got hit with an Ion Accelerator dead center, they would shrug it off. My Warriors wouldn't be so lucky. And I'm not saying everyone is WAAC, I'm simply staying to the point of this thread, as far as Necrons being in the top 4 armies in the game based on what they have access to and can potentially bring to the table. In a casual setting, Necrons are still good, WAAC or not, but you act like you playing your fluffy Ultramarines Tacticals led by a Captain standing out front should be able to take it on with ease.

You know what kind of deathstars get tarpitted, by 260 points of space mummies? Any kind of deathstar in a 1250 game or less.

Which is?

Also I don't know what kind of cheating marines e players you've been playing with, but tacs get 2 melta shots when they disembark. 3 if they're Ultras using devestator doctrine on tac marines (why?). So under most circumstances if one misses he's got about a 2/3 chance to pop A tank. That's if the melta roll doesn't go south.

And more than half the time I open up into vehicles and come up short on 6s. Again, ask any Necron player. Relying on 6s isn't going to get you anywhere.

They aren't deleting squadrons in a single shooting phase with 40+ haywire shots that reroll 1st on BS4/5 etc.

Neither are Necrons. In fact, I don't think anyone has that much Haywire, save for maybe Admech if you do it right.

Lastly, I never complained about ghost arks. I just stated that using a big unit of warriors as a tarpit or sacrificial unit isn't really a loss at all because the those Warriors will show up elsewhere... but by all means man, keep putting words in my mouth. It doesn't make your argument look weak at all...

A. You certainly made it sound like you were annoyed, and your annoyance pointing towards Ghost Arks. B. Sacrificial Warriors? I wouldn't call 260 points a "sacrificial unit". C. How are they showing up elsewhere? The Ghost Ark can only add onto a current unit, not taking it over it's starting size. Unless, of course, you're talking about the formation from the Start Collecting! box set. In which case, that's not in a Decurion, and lacks the bonuses you obviously hate.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

Can Grav cents kill a swarm on 30 gaunts 1 turn then a full squadron of russes the next?

Umm, Scatbikes can do the first. But otherwise, Grav Cents have a better chance of taking out a squadron of tanks than Warriors do. And to boot, if we're talking about the Destroyer Lord joining them, that becomes a much more expensive unit than your Grav Cents.

A few counters to this
1) You can't talk about grav cents AND scat bikes. They are taken by two different armies, you have to stick to one...I guess I'll call it list...when making these kind of comparisons. You can compare Scatbikes and WG/FD, or Centstars and TFC/horde removal unit.

2) Comparing them to Scatbikes and Grav Cents seems a little unfair to me personally, though I know you didn't bring it up originally. You're talking about the most broken units in the game, Warriors won't compare to that. That doesn't mean warriors aren't a good choice, it just means they aren't broken beyond belief.

3) Cents are almost always taken as a star, and a cent star is going to cost a lot more than the warriors. Will it be better? Against the vast majority of targets, yes. Will they always be better? No. Daemons and other units with poor saves or Str D blast templates work very well against cents. Will the Warriors ever be bad choices? Doubtful, they are the most versatile troop in the game. Not powerful, but versatile.

 krodarklorr wrote:

I'm ragging on the fact that they are the most versatile troops in the game

Versatile. You are correct. They have a rather unreliable way of killing vehicles. Good thing we have all of our Grav, D, Melta, Haywire, and everything else to take care of vehicles. Oh wait, that's not us.

For space marines, not a lot of units can effectively take str D or grav weapons. It's really Knights, which warriors do well against, or cents/bikes. Grav pigeons them into a role.
Melta and haywire really a certain army list since they need to be dropped in. I'm not to sure where haywire is in the marine codex.

Eldar, if that's what you are referring to, lack grav but have good access to D, decent access to melta, and bad access to haywire now. They have problems with enough AV spam nowadays but handle it better than most armies. Necrons do about as good or better. Marines with grav spam still do very well against tanks of course, most likely the best in the game at removing large amounts of AV.

Necrons, however, are always tough and can target any unit in the game thanks to gauss, and at decent ranges. Keep in mind, a SM squad with 2 meltas in a pod is very expensive compared to warriors. You're looking at ~180 or more points for that cost. A warrior squad would be ~15 strong for the same cost, so you get 5 extra bodies (10 more shots) that are tougher to remove and do roughly the same HP damage outside of the damage table. There is a reason you don't see basic marines in lists.
Now, sternguard with all combi is fine, but they aren't nearly as tough and tend to target one thing and explode. Not the same role as warriors at all.

 krodarklorr wrote:

that are harder to kill than marines with stormshields with a higher damage output.

This is just false.

For the points? It's true. Granted, the only basic marine I could think of with a SS is a wulfen, which is 50 points for a 2W 4T 3++ model with FnP. It's an extremely solid unit.
I can take 4 Warriors for that, who will be 4W 4T 4+ 4 or 5 RP with possible re-rolls. It's a strong choice, and while weaker in CC, can still absorb things better than the Wulfen can outside of a few targets (wulfen are arguably better against grav, worse against scat bikes for the cost).

 krodarklorr wrote:

Speaking on durability I know it's the necrons thing, but when you have 13 point models with 4+RPs, rerolling ones is dumb. Especially with all the other bonuses they get from decurion. I can't think of anyone who would argue that with a straight face. I'm fine with necrons being tough. Not as much with their foot infantry that cost as much as a Genestealer being as tough as smashfuckers retinue without the bikes. And before you start in on marines keep in mind not everyone is a WA AC running IH.

Genestealers are a bad example, as everyone knows they're terrible. And I wish my warriors were as tough as that retinue. Too bad if that retinue got hit with an Ion Accelerator dead center, they would shrug it off. My Warriors wouldn't be so lucky. And I'm not saying everyone is WAAC, I'm simply staying to the point of this thread, as far as Necrons being in the top 4 armies in the game based on what they have access to and can potentially bring to the table. In a casual setting, Necrons are still good, WAAC or not, but you act like you playing your fluffy Ultramarines Tacticals led by a Captain standing out front should be able to take it on with ease.

Necrons don't take many warriors in a WAAC environment though. It tends to be more about wraiths and other, better units. Few armies spam troops in a WAAC setting.

 krodarklorr wrote:

You know what kind of deathstars get tarpitted, by 260 points of space mummies? Any kind of deathstar in a 1250 game or less.

Which is?

I don't understand your question. A few stars will get pinned, but not all. TWC can do well against the warriors due to so many attacks and TH, but other units struggle to inflict enough wounds before the wraiths charge in. I don't see why a points level matters either tbh, few stars cost over 1k in points.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Also I don't know what kind of cheating marines e players you've been playing with, but tacs get 2 melta shots when they disembark. 3 if they're Ultras using devestator doctrine on tac marines (why?). So under most circumstances if one misses he's got about a 2/3 chance to pop A tank. That's if the melta roll doesn't go south.

And more than half the time I open up into vehicles and come up short on 6s. Again, ask any Necron player. Relying on 6s isn't going to get you anywhere.

I'm not sure why anyone thinks 2 meltas will pop a tank...they don't. 3 might, but even then only 2 are likely to hit, then with everything else I doubt the odds go too far above 50%. Most tanks have 3HP after all.
A squad of 15 warriors, however, will do 30 shots, 20 hits, usually 3 HP worth of damage. If it's got AV 10, they can charge for another 30 Str 4 attacks. That's not great, but its better than most drop pod melta lists in terms of damage. Drop pods do it quicker however, so there is a trade off.

I think that basically this argument comes down to one side feeling like they like the utility of having an option to shoot+charge and the other side feeling that charging isn't worth it.

I don't think anyone is going to win that argument. It's basically an argument about play-style. I don't think anybody is wrong with the way they are choosing to play.

But lets be 100% honest with ourselves. Relentless is not why you run Decurion.

The fact that grav always gives full FNP is a huge bonus for Necrons.

Qlanth wrote:
I think that basically this argument comes down to one side feeling like they like the utility of having an option to shoot+charge and the other side feeling that charging isn't worth it.

I don't think anyone is going to win that argument. It's basically an argument about play-style. I don't think anybody is wrong with the way they are choosing to play.

But lets be 100% honest with ourselves. Relentless is not why you run Decurion.

I agree, you don't run it because of relentless.
Relentless is a nice rule because it removes a weakness (shoot or charge?) from a unit that already doesn't have a ton of weaknesses. If warriors had better weapons, say Assault 2/3, they'd be up there with scatbikes for best unit in the game. But still, it's not bad and it's come up for me before.

It's salt in a wound. Marines are supposed to be generalists, but then are equipped with a weapon that prevents them from being generalists.

In my 40K rewrite, I'd make bolters assault or give Astartes counterattack. One or the other. Anything else is beyond stupid.

Or just give certain chapters the ability to purchase CCW's. Scouts + Bikers are my go-to Troops for a reason.

At a tournament level no. Nothing short of 24 wraiths is very scary. In regular play with a normal Necron army they are really just like a blue control deck in magic where you can grind down most opponents which I think is fun and risky since it melts to everything from deathstars to fast heavy assault armies like thunderwolves, demons, and knights.

I think Necrons are still part of the big four but I don't think they're a top tier army.
I cringe in tournaments because I know it's going to be a low scoring game even if I win, Necrons simply can't be broken.
Tau break if you can kill off all their Marker Drones.
Eldar break if you kill off their Psykers or kill their bikes before they get moving.
Guard break when you kill their tanks.
Orks break when you kill their Stompa or a few characters.
Space Marines break when you stuff up their game plan.
Necrons don't have linchpins and their tactics usually consist of 'March to objectives and sit on them'.

Big 4 isn't really important since only 3 armies are dominating the competitive scene (Eldar, SM, Daemons).

 CrownAxe wrote:
Big 4 isn't really important since only 3 armies are dominating the competitive scene (Eldar, SM, Daemons).

I kind of agree, but at the same time, the 40k competitive scene is terrible. I would much rather look at a casual/semi-competitive environment for comparison.

If you only take into account the competitive scene, then nothing compares to Eldar, Supah Fwends, and Invis-stars.