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 EnTyme wrote:

 WulfenClaw wrote:


Master Chronomancer: Orikan and all models with the Reanimation Protocols special rule in his unit receive a +1 bonus to Reanimation Protocols rolls and can re-roll saving throws of a 1.

Can ICs be attached to beasts? And again, where are the Wraiths getting the re-roll on the invuln save?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 adamsouza wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
Where are they getting these rerolls?

Reclamation Legion Formation allows re-rolls of 1's on Reanimation Protocols when within 12" of the Overlord

I was referring to his comments on Wraiths getting re-rolls. If there is a way to get a re-rollable 3+ invlun and rerolls ones for RP on my Wraiths, I want to know how.

Attach Orikan to the Wraiths and keep the Reclamation Legion Overlord within 12" of the Wraith unit.

Orikan enables the Wraiths to re-roll the 3++ when they roll a 1, so it's 50% as potent as a fully re-rollable 3++.

col_impact wrote:
Attach Orikan to the Wraiths

Hmm. For some reason I was thinking ICs couldn't be attached to beasts. Just checked the rules, and that's not the case. You're really slowing the Wraith down this way, though.

and keep the Reclamation Legion Overlord within 12" of the Wraith unit.

That benefit only affects units in the Reclamation Legion, so the Wraiths don't get it.

Orikan enables the Wraiths to re-roll the 3++ when they roll a 1, so it's 50% as potent as a fully re-rollable 3++.

You know, I always read that as the unit can reroll RP rolls of 1. Just reread it and you're right on this one. You're still dealing with the speed issue, though, and eliminating one of the strengths of the unit. You'd be far better served attaching Orikan to Lychguard with shields in my opinion.

Wraiths aren't part of the Reclamation Legion, they don't get to reroll the RP 1s with in 12" of the Overlord.

I usually run a Decurion with a canoptek harvest and destroyer cult. Then I'll stick the D Lord with Void Reaper with the Wraiths.

I would argue that properly built daemons beat necrons on the power list.

I stopped playing my necrons as everyone just complains when you put them on the table....

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'd say that makes no sense. Necrons are still OP they haven't gotten any weaker.

When everything gets stronger, it shifts the balance. Compaired to Chaos or nids, sure they seem op, but to space marines (biggest by far playerbase), tau, eldar and daemons, they are weaker.

Nah you are weaker compared to Marines but much stronger than Tau. Marines and their insane buffs after the new psychci powers and crazy death stars make me want to puke. An army that can take down Eldar consistently and their power creep is only going to get worse with more releases and formations as time goes by until the meta is drowned in marine combat. Bring on 8th and for the love of god let this all die in a fire.

Marines and Eldar are pushing out lots of armies now. It's getting harder and harder to win unless you play one of those two armies with their uber lists. Necrons have a better chance at that than Tau due to better mobility, objective secure, and survivability which makes you more viable in that scene. With decent firepower.

 adamsouza wrote:
Locally:
I stopped playing my Necrons when other players just automatically started cringing without even seeing what I put on the table.

Yup, this is my experience as well. I can put my best army list from either Daemons, CSM or Mechanicum on the table and no one bats an eye.
Put a single necron warrior on the table while unpacking and people are starting huffing about how OP Necrons are, regardless of the list.

Non-decurion Necrons really aren't that hard to kill and the firepower they bring is mediocre at best.

Necrons are strong in a casual environment, but since they didn't give us D and took away our GC (in an edition that is handing out D and GCs/SHVs like crazy), and the lack of powerful weaponry, Necrons are lacking in a competitive environment. Take into account the lack of a supplement and lack of Forgeworld support. Necrons are stronger than a lot of codexes, but that's about it. They've fallen into purgatory, as far as I can tell.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Necrons are strong in a casual environment, but since they didn't give us D and took away our GC (in an edition that is handing out D and GCs/SHVs like crazy), and the lack of powerful weaponry, Necrons are lacking in a competitive environment. Take into account the lack of a supplement and lack of Forgeworld support. Necrons are stronger than a lot of codexes, but that's about it. They've fallen into purgatory, as far as I can tell.

I play a lot of Necrons... I think you might be over-exaggerating on the lack of supplement stuff. Conclave of the Burning One+God Shackle seems to be fairly popular. The other formations from that book, I'm not sure, but at the very least it is there and not completely tossed aside like you're implying.

Qlanth wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Necrons are strong in a casual environment, but since they didn't give us D and took away our GC (in an edition that is handing out D and GCs/SHVs like crazy), and the lack of powerful weaponry, Necrons are lacking in a competitive environment. Take into account the lack of a supplement and lack of Forgeworld support. Necrons are stronger than a lot of codexes, but that's about it. They've fallen into purgatory, as far as I can tell.

I play a lot of Necrons... I think you might be over-exaggerating on the lack of supplement stuff. Conclave of the Burning One+God Shackle seems to be fairly popular. The other formations from that book, I'm not sure, but at the very least it is there and not completely tossed aside like you're implying.

It's the only supplement we have, and 2 of the 3 formations are worthless compared to the ones in the codex, the relics are sub-par and now can't be combined with other relics per the FAQ. It's also a shared supplement, which I'm a bit salty towards, personally. It coming out before the new codex did was a mistake in my opinion.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Necrons are strong in a casual environment, but since they didn't give us D and took away our GC (in an edition that is handing out D and GCs/SHVs like crazy), and the lack of powerful weaponry, Necrons are lacking in a competitive environment. Take into account the lack of a supplement and lack of Forgeworld support. Necrons are stronger than a lot of codexes, but that's about it. They've fallen into purgatory, as far as I can tell.

What about LVO 2016? 2 top 8 finishes doesn't sound like purgatory. Anyone who plays Tyranids can tell you what the definition of purgatory is...

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Necrons are strong in a casual environment, but since they didn't give us D and took away our GC (in an edition that is handing out D and GCs/SHVs like crazy), and the lack of powerful weaponry, Necrons are lacking in a competitive environment. Take into account the lack of a supplement and lack of Forgeworld support. Necrons are stronger than a lot of codexes, but that's about it. They've fallen into purgatory, as far as I can tell.

What about LVO 2016? 2 top 8 finishes doesn't sound like purgatory. Anyone who plays Tyranids can tell you what the definition of purgatory is...

When was the LVO this year?

And as a Tyranid player as well, I can certainly agree.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Necrons are strong in a casual environment, but since they didn't give us D and took away our GC (in an edition that is handing out D and GCs/SHVs like crazy), and the lack of powerful weaponry, Necrons are lacking in a competitive environment. Take into account the lack of a supplement and lack of Forgeworld support. Necrons are stronger than a lot of codexes, but that's about it. They've fallen into purgatory, as far as I can tell.

What about LVO 2016? 2 top 8 finishes doesn't sound like purgatory. Anyone who plays Tyranids can tell you what the definition of purgatory is...

When was the LVO this year?

And as a Tyranid player as well, I can certainly agree.

Here are the LVO results: https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/02/11/lvo-2016-40k-championships-results/

I think that while there have been new flavors of the month army-wise, a well-played Necron army still is plenty potent (especially for people who aren't expecting it, which may be part of how they do well).

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Necrons are strong in a casual environment, but since they didn't give us D and took away our GC (in an edition that is handing out D and GCs/SHVs like crazy), and the lack of powerful weaponry, Necrons are lacking in a competitive environment. Take into account the lack of a supplement and lack of Forgeworld support. Necrons are stronger than a lot of codexes, but that's about it. They've fallen into purgatory, as far as I can tell.

What about LVO 2016? 2 top 8 finishes doesn't sound like purgatory. Anyone who plays Tyranids can tell you what the definition of purgatory is...

When was the LVO this year?

And as a Tyranid player as well, I can certainly agree.

Here are the LVO results: https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/02/11/lvo-2016-40k-championships-results/

I think that while there have been new flavors of the month army-wise, a well-played Necron army still is plenty potent (especially for people who aren't expecting it, which may be part of how they do well).

If you're referring to the LVO that was in February of this year, then sure, Necrons did well. Against 6th edition Eldar, Tau, Space Marines. Since then we've had quite a few new codexes/supplements come out.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Necrons are strong in a casual environment, but since they didn't give us D and took away our GC (in an edition that is handing out D and GCs/SHVs like crazy), and the lack of powerful weaponry, Necrons are lacking in a competitive environment. Take into account the lack of a supplement and lack of Forgeworld support. Necrons are stronger than a lot of codexes, but that's about it. They've fallen into purgatory, as far as I can tell.

What about LVO 2016? 2 top 8 finishes doesn't sound like purgatory. Anyone who plays Tyranids can tell you what the definition of purgatory is...

When was the LVO this year?

And as a Tyranid player as well, I can certainly agree.

Here are the LVO results: https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/02/11/lvo-2016-40k-championships-results/

I think that while there have been new flavors of the month army-wise, a well-played Necron army still is plenty potent (especially for people who aren't expecting it, which may be part of how they do well).

If you're referring to the LVO that was in February of this year, then sure, Necrons did well. Against 6th edition Eldar, Tau, Space Marines. Since then we've had quite a few new codexes/supplements come out.

No that was all post 7th of all the army's Tau did not make top 16. This was pre SM new buff with the godlike powers and they still did well but eldar were King

 krodarklorr wrote:


If you're referring to the LVO that was in February of this year, then sure, Necrons did well. Against 6th edition Eldar, Tau, Space Marines. Since then we've had quite a few new codexes/supplements come out.

All of those armies had their 7ed update by this year's LVO

 CrownAxe wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:


If you're referring to the LVO that was in February of this year, then sure, Necrons did well. Against 6th edition Eldar, Tau, Space Marines. Since then we've had quite a few new codexes/supplements come out.

All of those armies had their 7ed update by this year's LVO

Wow it's been a long day. My bad, I was thinking of last year. Don't mind me.

 EnTyme wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Attach Orikan to the Wraiths

Hmm. For some reason I was thinking ICs couldn't be attached to beasts. Just checked the rules, and that's not the case. You're really slowing the Wraith down this way, though.

EnTyme wrote:
You're still dealing with the speed issue, though, and eliminating one of the strengths of the unit. You'd be far better served attaching Orikan to Lychguard with shields in my opinion.

Have you actually tested this out in a game? The Orikan-Wraithstar is the definitive way to run an Orikan-star competitively. The ICs don't really slow down the Wraiths. The Wraiths still get their Wraith flight and the ICs get Move Through Cover. Sure you have to lag a Wraith body to keep the ICs in coherence but they slingshot back towards the front in the charge move.

Absolutely big 4.

Also one of the most boring armies to play against. Fired a TFC battery at a squad on 10 immortals. 26 hits. 3 died. Hit a 15 man warrior squad with 2 BA vindicators. Both direct hits. I think there were 21 wounds under a 10/2 temp. 8 of them mummy-shuffled forward without flinching. I can beat them, bet regardless of who comes out on top, it's going to be a "death by 1000 cuts" game if we're doing KP.

As a side note they can absolutely keep up with cheese. They don't have the offense of Tau or Eldae, but some of their formations are definitely facepalm inducing. Hell, they can pull some pretty stupid crap without formations. Example: D-lord, in a 20 warrior unit, with a stalker with heat ray walking up behind. The Warriors are putting out up to 40 shots a turn, none will miss and no amount of equivalent point firepower is putting a dent in that unit. The walker will always have a 5 up cover guaranteed to delete at least 1 unit a turn (ANY UNIT) for less than 350 points

Played right or played cheese they can hold their own against anything.

col_impact wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Attach Orikan to the Wraiths

Hmm. For some reason I was thinking ICs couldn't be attached to beasts. Just checked the rules, and that's not the case. You're really slowing the Wraith down this way, though.

EnTyme wrote:
You're still dealing with the speed issue, though, and eliminating one of the strengths of the unit. You'd be far better served attaching Orikan to Lychguard with shields in my opinion.

Have you actually tested this out in a game? The Orikan-Wraithstar is the definitive way to run an Orikan-star competitively. The ICs don't really slow down the Wraiths. The Wraiths still get their Wraith flight and the ICs get Move Through Cover. Sure you have to lag a Wraith body to keep the ICs in coherence but they slingshot back towards the front in the charge move.

Considering how easy it would be to kite that daisy-chained unit, I don't see how this unit is ever able to get into charge range of anything you would actually be wanting to charge.

D lord with 20 warriors is incredibly powerful unit. Extremely hard to remove and it can remove some of the nastiest things in the game.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
. Example: D-lord, in a 20 warrior unit, with a stalker with heat ray walking up behind. The Warriors are putting out up to 40 shots a turn, none will miss and no amount of equivalent point firepower is putting a dent in that unit. The walker will always have a 5 up cover guaranteed to delete at least 1 unit a turn (ANY UNIT) for less than 350 points

How did you get "less than 350 points" ?

Destroyer Lord 110pts
Triarch Stalker 125pts
20 Necron Warriors 260pts

I'm no mathologist, so don't quote me on this, but that's looks a lot closer to 500 than 350.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Absolutely big 4.

Also one of the most boring armies to play against. Fired a TFC battery at a squad on 10 immortals. 26 hits. 3 died. Hit a 15 man warrior squad with 2 BA vindicators. Both direct hits. I think there were 21 wounds under a 10/2 temp. 8 of them mummy-shuffled forward without flinching. I can beat them, bet regardless of who comes out on top, it's going to be a "death by 1000 cuts" game if we're doing KP.

As a side note they can absolutely keep up with cheese. They don't have the offense of Tau or Eldae, but some of their formations are definitely facepalm inducing. Hell, they can pull some pretty stupid crap without formations. Example: D-lord, in a 20 warrior unit, with a stalker with heat ray walking up behind. The Warriors are putting out up to 40 shots a turn, none will miss and no amount of equivalent point firepower is putting a dent in that unit. The walker will always have a 5 up cover guaranteed to delete at least 1 unit a turn (ANY UNIT) for less than 350 points

Played right or played cheese they can hold their own against anything.

Uhh, Triarch Stalkers are not hard to remove.

 EnTyme wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Attach Orikan to the Wraiths

Hmm. For some reason I was thinking ICs couldn't be attached to beasts. Just checked the rules, and that's not the case. You're really slowing the Wraith down this way, though.

EnTyme wrote:
You're still dealing with the speed issue, though, and eliminating one of the strengths of the unit. You'd be far better served attaching Orikan to Lychguard with shields in my opinion.

Have you actually tested this out in a game? The Orikan-Wraithstar is the definitive way to run an Orikan-star competitively. The ICs don't really slow down the Wraiths. The Wraiths still get their Wraith flight and the ICs get Move Through Cover. Sure you have to lag a Wraith body to keep the ICs in coherence but they slingshot back towards the front in the charge move.

Considering how easy it would be to kite that daisy-chained unit, I don't see how this unit is ever able to get into charge range of anything you would actually be wanting to charge.

Dude. The Wraiths aren't slowed down so the unit is just as easy to kite as a Wraith unit with no ICs attached - which is damn near impossible to kite.

You should test it out. The Orikan-Wraithstar is proven in competition.

 adamsouza wrote:

Move through cover ? Oh so usefull when your sitting on objectives.
Relentless ? Yay, I can charge after shooting my Guass rifle ! WTF am I charging anything with my I2 A1 warriors ?

Err, that unit that is going to assault you next turn if you let it? Especially if the warriors are still near full strength, shooting, and then getting a charge off to deny the enemy their bonus attacks is a pretty decent tatic. Getting to throw near 40 attacks at a unit, after having hit them with near 40 shots, even a tough one with good saves, rerolls, and what not, is not something that can be just shrugged off.

Especially when the alternative is them getting the charge on you next turn, although near 40 over watch shots is a thing too.

No offense guys, but coming up with hypothetical situations where the stars align just right to make Necron Warriors charging feasible isn't going to change my mind about relentless being lackluster on a unit that is weak in melee and without heavy weapons. It's offensive use is situational at best, and it does nothing defensively.

I'd move them back 6", see if they can make the charge, and then take the 40 overwatch shots, because then at least Gauss does something, because I'm going to assume if my enemy is charging 20 Necron Warriors he's using something that can kill 20 Necron warriors, and not a half dozen Imperial Guardman, a lone grot, or half eaten doughnut.

Nobody was talking rare hypotheticals. Any time they're near most other infantry troops or rear AV10 vehicles (neither oc which are rare events) they have the opportunity to use that Relentless to great effect. I see it used almost every game I play against Necrons. And, on its own wouldnt be huge, but when combined with the resiliency factor, Gauss (when engaging vehiclrd), and open topped skimmer transports, it lends them a much greater versatility than you are acknowledging.

Lets look at an example. A 10man unit of Warriors with a Ghost Ark is fully capable of successfully weakening and then defeating a 30 strong Shoota Boy mob in CC. 10 will die from shooting on the way in on average between the Ark and Warriors,, the Orks may be lucky to kill one Warrior in Overwatch, the Warriors will kill 4 Boyz on average assuming 1 PK nob and 19boyz strike, the kill 2 Warriors back on average, Necrons win combat by 2, and then have an excellent chance to break and sweep the Orks.

I composed and then deleted a huge response.

Warriors can charge and beat things weaker than MEQs. When my warriors get to do that someday, I'll be happy about having Relentless, but it's still going to be a rarity, since the vast majority of players field MEQs, that's what they are likely to encounter.

Since my warriors tend to hold objectives in the back field, they don't often deal with cannon fodder troops. They are more likely to encounter deep striking shock troops, FMC's, and fast attack choices.