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Early on in 7th ed, most people considered Eldar, Tau, Marines and Necrons to be the 4 top Tier armies. With all the new Marine rules form Angels of Death, the new Tau codices and the current Eldar codex, have the other 3 left Necrons in the dust? I ask because I see an increasing amount of banter around the OPness of Gladius, Riptide spam and Eldar, yet hardly anyone mentions Necrons anymore.

Locally, I don't see anyone playing Necrons that often.

Locally:
I stopped playing my Necrons when other players just automatically started cringing without even seeing what I put on the table.

Evidently anything that doesn't evaporate when Space Marines shoot it is too time consuming to kill to be "fun"

Conversely, everyone loves facing Orks, not matter what I field.

Competitively:
Going from 6th to 7th Necrons lost punch and gained survivability. Trading Crypteks with Haywire attacks, and Telsa everything, for basic attacks on harder to kill models.
A Necron player can now drown you in Scarabs with Reanimation protocols, but that type of army doesn't play fast, and tournament game run on a time limit.

 Galef wrote:
Early on in 7th ed, most people considered Eldar, Tau, Marines and Necrons to be the 4 top Tier armies. With all the new Marine rules form Angels of Death, the new Tau codices and the current Eldar codex, have the other 3 left Necrons in the dust? I ask because I see an increasing amount of banter around the OPness of Gladius, Riptide spam and Eldar, yet hardly anyone mentions Necrons anymore.

Locally, I don't see anyone playing Necrons that often.

Necrons still routinely place well, there's just nothing new to talk about.

Tau, SM's, and Eldar have all gotten new stuff of sorts since the Necron release so theyre a little more fresh, but Necrons dont appear to be dramatically dropping off in terms of power level. Likewise, none of the other armies have new abilities that are any more effective or interesting to use against Necrons than they were before really. Necrons just arent much of a conversation topic, theyre a rather boring army to face.

Yeah necrons have been pushed down to 'strong but not op' levels since space marines rocketed up to #1/2 spot. Necrons and daemons I would concider fairly close in power levels, edge to the necrons due to daemons randomness.

I'd say that makes no sense. Necrons are still OP they haven't gotten any weaker.

pm713 wrote:
I'd say that makes no sense. Necrons are still OP they haven't gotten any weaker.

When everything gets stronger, it shifts the balance. Compaired to Chaos or nids, sure they seem op, but to space marines (biggest by far playerbase), tau, eldar and daemons, they are weaker.

Most people generally don't talk about Necrons because it's not so much as they're OP as more they're incredibly annoying to face. The Decurion makes even the average warrior unreasonably durable for the cost. At least that's the majority of complains I hear.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Yeah necrons have been pushed down to 'strong but not op' levels since space marines rocketed up to #1/2 spot. Necrons and daemons I would concider fairly close in power levels, edge to the necrons due to daemons randomness.

This is about what I was thinking. With all the new stuff the other 3 got, plus the new Daemon toys, I'd agree that Daemons and Necrons are about the same Tier, just under the "Big 3"

 adamsouza wrote:
Locally:
I stopped playing my Necrons when other players just automatically started cringing without even seeing what I put on the table.

Evidently anything that doesn't evaporate when Space Marines shoot it is too time consuming to kill to be "fun"

Conversely, everyone loves facing Orks, not matter what I field.

Competitively:
Going from 6th to 7th Necrons lost punch and gained survivability. Trading Crypteks with Haywire attacks, and Telsa everything, for basic attacks on harder to kill models.
A Necron player can now drown you in Scarabs with Reanimation protocols, but that type of army doesn't play fast, and tournament game run on a time limit.

They are not fun. even for non Space marine armies.

but it seems that they cant really compete with the hot cheese right now. but they are still a brick wall to PUGs and stuff.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'd say that makes no sense. Necrons are still OP they haven't gotten any weaker.

When everything gets stronger, it shifts the balance. Compaired to Chaos or nids, sure they seem op, but to space marines (biggest by far playerbase), tau, eldar and daemons, they are weaker.

It only changes it if you're an OP army.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Most people generally don't talk about Necrons because it's not so much as they're OP as more they're incredibly annoying to face. The Decurion makes even the average warrior unreasonably durable for the cost. At least that's the majority of complains I hear.

I remember being told that having a T5 Nurgle Marine with a 3+ that, if failed, also got to roll a FnP 4+ was too tough to kill.

Oh how times have changed.

How are Tau still also called top level have I just missed them wining a big tournament or two?
I can see some finding them unfun to play vs like necrons but they seem to be level 2 with daemons
They can win but they are not eldar or SM

 Selym wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Most people generally don't talk about Necrons because it's not so much as they're OP as more they're incredibly annoying to face. The Decurion makes even the average warrior unreasonably durable for the cost. At least that's the majority of complains I hear.

I remember being told that having a T5 Nurgle Marine with a 3+ that, if failed, also got to roll a FnP 4+ was too tough to kill.

Oh how times have changed.

Average Necron Warrior is T4 with 4+ save, with 5+RP (4+ if your doing it right), is weaker in assaults in general, and specifically can't kill a dreadnaught if assaulted.

We're just seeing more Necron Warriors in the meta, so that is where the attention goes to.

Death Company are what T4, 3+ save, with FNP, much better in assault, but in a crap codex.

Oldmike wrote:
How are Tau still also called top level have I just missed them wining a big tournament or two?
I can see some finding them unfun to play vs like necrons but they seem to be level 2 with daemons
They can win but they are not eldar or SM

It depends on who you are. In the battle of have-stuff codices, I can see the Tau's issues. In haves vs have-nots, Tau are unimaginably frustrating. They are far more lethal than a Gladius.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 adamsouza wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Most people generally don't talk about Necrons because it's not so much as they're OP as more they're incredibly annoying to face. The Decurion makes even the average warrior unreasonably durable for the cost. At least that's the majority of complains I hear.

I remember being told that having a T5 Nurgle Marine with a 3+ that, if failed, also got to roll a FnP 4+ was too tough to kill.

Oh how times have changed.

Average Necron Warrior is T4 with 4+ save, with 5+RP (4+ if your doing it right), is weaker in assaults in general, and specifically can't kill a dreadnaught if assaulted.

We're just seeing more Necron Warriors in the meta, so that is where the attention goes to.

Death Company are what T4, 3+ save, with FNP, much better in assault, but in a crap codex.

DC also cost more.

 Selym wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Most people generally don't talk about Necrons because it's not so much as they're OP as more they're incredibly annoying to face. The Decurion makes even the average warrior unreasonably durable for the cost. At least that's the majority of complains I hear.

I remember being told that having a T5 Nurgle Marine with a 3+ that, if failed, also got to roll a FnP 4+ was too tough to kill.

Oh how times have changed.

and thats with 24ppm infantry that got their FNP entirely negated by ID or AP2 back in the day

Like said above, the main problem is Necrons are still strong, they're just boring and frustrating to play. A good friend of mine put it well: "I won't kill you outright, I'll just slowly grind you down to nothing".

As mentioned, this play style doesn't translate well to timed tournaments and generally don't make for fun games.

DC cost may cost 7 points more per model than a Necron warrior, but have higer initiative, 2 more attacks, better save, frag & Crack, grenades, Fearless, furious charge, rage, and relentless. They really should cost more, so I'm not really seeing your point. If warriors cost any more than they do, they would be overcosted for what they do.

ninja'd

 jreilly89 wrote:
Like said above, the main problem is Necrons are still strong, they're just boring and frustrating to play. A good friend of mine put it well: "I won't kill you outright, I'll just slowly grind you down to nothing".

As mentioned, this play style doesn't translate well to timed tournaments and generally don't make for fun games.

Pretty much. They lost all their best offensive toys in the transition from 6th to 7th.

Just not fun to play against.

-Warriors should just die.

-Wraiths should not be given the ability to only fail Invuln Saves on a 2+ and reroll 1s, then make a 4+ Reanimation, then reroll fails of a 1. Literally aids. (yeh I know..kill the Spider)

Just my opinion on how un-fun it can be playing against them.

 adamsouza wrote:
DC cost may cost 7 points more per model than a Necron warrior, but have higer initiative, 2 more attacks, better save, frag & Crack, grenades, Fearless, furious charge, rage, and relentless. They really should cost more, so I'm not really seeing your point. If warriors cost any more than they do, they would be overcosted for what they do.

On their own, sure. Once you add ubiquitous Decurion and Reclamation Legion bonuses (is anyone *not* running these?) and they get RP on 4's with rerolls on 1's and Relentless and MTC on top, they come rather absurd for 13ppm troops.

 WulfenClaw wrote:
-Warriors should just die.

Um..no.

Reanimation Protocols on Warriors, formerly I'll be back, is literally the defining characteristic of Necron Warrriors they had since their introduction to the game back in 2nd edition.

It would be like reducing Space Marines to 4+ armor because it's not fun playing against them and they make all those pesky armor saves.

So there is a formation that grants you a 4+ reanimation protocols on Wraiths... yes, Wraiths. And the ability to repair a Monolith but people still complain about Space Marines being rocketed...

 DalinCriid wrote:
So there is a formation that grants you a 4+ reanimation protocols on Wraiths... yes, Wraiths. And the ability to repair a Monolith but people still complain about Space Marines being rocketed...

More than one thing can be broken, calling out some of the Necron stuff for being overowered doesnt mean Space Marine stuff cant also be so and vice versa.

 WulfenClaw wrote:

-Wraiths should not be given the ability to only fail Invuln Saves on a 2+ and reroll 1s, then make a 4+ Reanimation, then reroll fails of a 1. Literally aids. (yeh I know..kill the Spider)

Where are they getting these rerolls?

 Vaktathi wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
DC cost may cost 7 points more per model than a Necron warrior, but have higer initiative, 2 more attacks, better save, frag & Crack, grenades, Fearless, furious charge, rage, and relentless. They really should cost more, so I'm not really seeing your point. If warriors cost any more than they do, they would be overcosted for what they do.

On their own, sure. Once you add ubiquitous Decurion and Reclamation Legion bonuses (is anyone *not* running these?) and they get RP on 4's with rerolls on 1's and Relentless and MTC on top, they come rather absurd for 13ppm troops.

Rerolls on 1's are only within 12" of the HQ model, and relentless and move through cover do what exactly for the Necron Warrior who's only weapon option is a guass rifle ? Relentless and Move Through Cover do Jack squat for increasing survivability.

You know what Necron Warriors are great for ? Sitting on objectives. Literally everything else in the codex is better at killing things.

Move through cover ? Oh so usefull when your sitting on objectives.
Relentless ? Yay, I can charge after shooting my Guass rifle ! WTF am I charging anything with my I2 A1 warriors ?

Are they a pain to remove from objectives ? Yes.
Are they offensively equal to a space marine ? No
Are they defensively superior to a space marine ? Yes , especially when in the right formations.
Do they crumble in assault against literally anything competent ? Yes
Do they counter standard ranged low AP MEQ killing meta ? Yes

 Vaktathi wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
DC cost may cost 7 points more per model than a Necron warrior, but have higer initiative, 2 more attacks, better save, frag & Crack, grenades, Fearless, furious charge, rage, and relentless. They really should cost more, so I'm not really seeing your point. If warriors cost any more than they do, they would be overcosted for what they do.

On their own, sure. Once you add ubiquitous Decurion and Reclamation Legion bonuses (is anyone *not* running these?) and they get RP on 4's with rerolls on 1's and Relentless and MTC on top, they come rather absurd for 13ppm troops.

They only reroll 1's when 12" from the Overlord, which isn't likely to happen because the Overlord is probably in a retinue that was meant to be at the enemy ASAP.

 EnTyme wrote:
Where are they getting these rerolls?

Reclamation Legion Formation allows re-rolls of 1's on Reanimation Protocols when within 12" of the Overlord

 EnTyme wrote:

 WulfenClaw wrote:

-Wraiths should not be given the ability to only fail Invuln Saves on a 2+ and reroll 1s, then make a 4+ Reanimation, then reroll fails of a 1. Literally aids. (yeh I know..kill the Spider)

Where are they getting these rerolls?

One of their Named HQs. Can't remember the name.

+ HQ +

Nemesor Zahndrekh
····Adaptive Tactics, Counter Tactics, Independent Character, Reanimation Protocols

Orikan the Diviner
····Chronoblade, Independent Character, Master Chronomancer, Reanimation Protocols, The Stars Are Right

++ Selection Rules ++

Adaptive Tactics: If Nemesor Zahndrekh is your Warlord, you may select a different Warlord Trait for him (no D6 roll is necessary) at the start of each friendly turn after the first - this replaces his existing Warlord Trait. This can be from the table in the Appendix, or any of the Warlord Traits tables in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. Zahndrekh cannot choose the same Warlord Trait more than once per game.
Chronoblade: The bearer of this weapon re-rolls all failed To Hit rolls in close combat.
Counter Tactics: Whilst Nemesor Zahndrekh is within 24" of any enemy unit(s) with any of the following special rules - Counter-attack, Furious Charge, Hit & Run, Split Fire, Stealth, Tank Hunters - then Zahndrekh and his unit also have the same special rule(s).
Independent Character
Master Chronomancer: Orikan and all models with the Reanimation Protocols special rule in his unit receive a +1 bonus to Reanimation Protocols rolls and can re-roll saving throws of a 1.
Reanimation Protocols: When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Reanimation Protocols roll to avoid being wounded. This is not a saving throw and so can be used against attacks that state ‘no saves of any kind are allowed'. Reanimation Protocols rolls may even be taken against hits with the Instant Death special rule, but cannot be used against hits from Destroyer weapons or any special rule or attack that states that the model is ‘removed from play'.

Roll a D6 each time the model suffers an unsaved Wound, subtracting 1 from the result if the hit that inflicted the Wound had the Instant Death special rule. On a 5+, discount the unsaved Wound - treat it as having been saved. Certain special rules and wargear items can provide modifiers to this dice roll; these are cumulative, but the required dice roll can never be improved to be better than 4+.

If a unit has both the Reanimation Protocols and Feel No Pain special rules, you can choose to use one special rule or the other to attempt to avoid the Wound, but not both. Choose which of the two special rules you will use each time a model suffers an unsaved Wound.
The Stars Are Right: Roll a D6 at the start of each friendly turn. If the result is less than the current turn number, Orikan uses the Orikan Empowered profile for the rest of the game. If Orikan suffered an unsaved Wound before becoming empowered, he will have 3 Wounds instead of 4.

Just some good fun right? ZzZzzzZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 adamsouza wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
DC cost may cost 7 points more per model than a Necron warrior, but have higer initiative, 2 more attacks, better save, frag & Crack, grenades, Fearless, furious charge, rage, and relentless. They really should cost more, so I'm not really seeing your point. If warriors cost any more than they do, they would be overcosted for what they do.

On their own, sure. Once you add ubiquitous Decurion and Reclamation Legion bonuses (is anyone *not* running these?) and they get RP on 4's with rerolls on 1's and Relentless and MTC on top, they come rather absurd for 13ppm troops.

Rerolls on 1's are only within 12" of the HQ model, and relentless and move through cover do what exactly for the Necron Warrior who's only weapon option is a guass rifle ?

having been on the receiving end of a full gauss fusillade followed up by an assault many times with multiple armies, quite a lot against comparatively priced and equipped units.

Not everything is a Wulfen or DC marine, or even a Space Marine at all. Against many Daemons, IG, Eldar, Tau, Skitarii, DE, Sisters, or AdMech units, or any rear AV10 vehicle, etc a double tap followed by an assault from Warriors is strikingly effective, and allows for additonal advancement and movement that they otherwise couldnt take advantage of. There's a whole lot of tactical utility there. Especially when coupled with an open topped Skimmer transport. This is like...Necron 101.

You know what Necron Warriors are great for ? Sitting on objectives. Literally everything else in the codex is better at killing things.

even if we accept this as true, it doesnt mean Necron Warriors are objectively terrible at killing things, especially equivalent role Troops units, it just means other units may be even better.

Move through cover ? Oh so usefull when your sitting on objectives.

If you literally never use them for anything else I guess. Its a minor thing, but when combined with Relentless can actually be quite useful, especially for *seizing* objectives.

Relentless ? Yay, I can charge after shooting my Guass rifle ! WTF am I charging anything with my I2 A1 warriors ?

anything that isnt a dedicated CC unit that you womped up on in the shooting phase first? A 10man unit will statistically overkill any rear AV10 vehicle near them with a Gauss doubletap and assault, anything like Sisters, most Eldar infantry, Scions, Skitarii, Guardsmen, SM's without a powerfist, etc are all excllent targets for such a maneuver, as are things like depleted Ork mobs. I see it used all the time. There are plenty of good targets for Relentless Warriors to assault.

 WulfenClaw wrote:


Master Chronomancer: Orikan and all models with the Reanimation Protocols special rule in his unit receive a +1 bonus to Reanimation Protocols rolls and can re-roll saving throws of a 1.

Can ICs be attached to beasts? And again, where are the Wraiths getting the re-roll on the invuln save?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 adamsouza wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
Where are they getting these rerolls?

Reclamation Legion Formation allows re-rolls of 1's on Reanimation Protocols when within 12" of the Overlord

I was referring to his comments on Wraiths getting re-rolls. If there is a way to get a re-rollable 3+ invlun and rerolls ones for RP on my Wraiths, I want to know how.

 adamsouza wrote:
DC cost may cost 7 points more per model than a Necron warrior, but have higer initiative, 2 more attacks, better save, frag & Crack, grenades, Fearless, furious charge, rage, and relentless. They really should cost more, so I'm not really seeing your point. If warriors cost any more than they do, they would be overcosted for what they do.

ninja'd

 jreilly89 wrote:
Like said above, the main problem is Necrons are still strong, they're just boring and frustrating to play. A good friend of mine put it well: "I won't kill you outright, I'll just slowly grind you down to nothing".

As mentioned, this play style doesn't translate well to timed tournaments and generally don't make for fun games.

Pretty much. They lost all their best offensive toys in the transition from 6th to 7th.

And yet necron warriors are still better models. DC are already pushing the envelope of unfieldably expensive.