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 adamsouza wrote:
I composed and then deleted a huge response.

Warriors can charge and beat things weaker than MEQs. When my warriors get to do that someday, I'll be happy about having Relentless, but it's still going to be a rarity, since the vast majority of players field MEQs, that's what they are likely to encounter.

Since my warriors tend to hold objectives in the back field, they don't often deal with cannon fodder troops. They are more likely to encounter deep striking shock troops, FMC's, and fast attack choices.

They'll beat basic MEQs as well, getting to rapid fire and charge is huge for them.
A full squad of let's say 10 Warriors will fire 20 shots, doing 13 hits, 6.7 wounds, ~ 2 kills
Take 8 attacks back (overwatch does a fraction, not going to calculate) at 4 hits, 2 wounds, 1 failed save, 0.667 or 0.5 (so between that and overwatch, let's round to 1)
18 attacks, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds, another 1.5 dead marines. So they might win combat (not terrible odds), are cheaper than the MEQ, and have killed 3-4 marines while the marines have killed one. The battle of attrition starts going in their favor from there.
Granted, they won't sweep, but its an amazing ability. I wish my chaos marines could do that.

I know this isn't a typical squad. A normal marine squad is more like 10 guys, 2 specials, 1 combi, which is closer to ~13-14 necrons and certain chapter tactics might make it worse. But normal marines aren't great anyway. Certainly, the better use for it is doing heavy damage to tau, eldar, or daemon units instead, but it does allow them to do damage.


That being said, Necrons are strong but boring. Nobody wants to play them. People would rather face my Iyanden or Aspect Host army than Necrons, and that is saying something.

 adamsouza wrote:
I composed and then deleted a huge response.

Warriors can charge and beat things weaker than MEQs. When my warriors get to do that someday, I'll be happy about having Relentless, but it's still going to be a rarity, since the vast majority of players field MEQs, that's what they are likely to encounter.

Since my warriors tend to hold objectives in the back field, they don't often deal with cannon fodder troops. They are more likely to encounter deep striking shock troops, FMC's, and fast attack choices.

As a Necron player who always uses the Decurion, I have to say that the Relentless is fantastic. It doesn't matter if it's a guardsmen or a terminator. I use it almost every game. Don't think they can kill MEQs? Okay. But you're more durable than them, and can stay locked in CC until you whittle them down or something comes to help.

hi guys,
im just a friendly player so forgive me if this is a silly question but ive seen several posts about how necrons are boring to play against. after reading it seems that this is because they are just hard to kill. is this the reason why theyre boring, becaue theyre hard to kill?
that makes them unfun to play against?

 adamsouza wrote:
I composed and then deleted a huge response.

Warriors can charge and beat things weaker than MEQs. When my warriors get to do that someday, I'll be happy about having Relentless, but it's still going to be a rarity, since the vast majority of players field MEQs, that's what they are likely to encounter.

Since my warriors tend to hold objectives in the back field, they don't often deal with cannon fodder troops. They are more likely to encounter deep striking shock troops, FMC's, and fast attack choices.

Warriors can beat meqs. It takes a while but they beat them for sure.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
hi guys,
im just a friendly player so forgive me if this is a silly question but ive seen several posts about how necrons are boring to play against. after reading it seems that this is because they are just hard to kill. is this the reason why theyre boring, becaue theyre hard to kill?
that makes them unfun to play against?

Yes.

When the Eldar player can't remove multiple units a turn with their D-weapons and Scatter Lasers, obviously there's something wrong with Necrons....

/sarcasm

 Xenomancers wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
I composed and then deleted a huge response.

Warriors can charge and beat things weaker than MEQs. When my warriors get to do that someday, I'll be happy about having Relentless, but it's still going to be a rarity, since the vast majority of players field MEQs, that's what they are likely to encounter.

Since my warriors tend to hold objectives in the back field, they don't often deal with cannon fodder troops. They are more likely to encounter deep striking shock troops, FMC's, and fast attack choices.

Warriors can beat meqs. It takes a while but they beat them for sure.

I've done the math on this. It depends on whether the MEQs (if we are talking marines here) use tactical/assault doctrines or not.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
hi guys,
im just a friendly player so forgive me if this is a silly question but ive seen several posts about how necrons are boring to play against. after reading it seems that this is because they are just hard to kill. is this the reason why theyre boring, becaue theyre hard to kill?
that makes them unfun to play against?

It's a combination of the army is tough and doesn't do anything interesting.

A typical game goes like this

1st, SM
Okay, so I drop in here and here, roll scatter, these guys rush up, those guys fire weapons, this unit teleports in and fire at these guys. I did...23 wounds this turn! Alright!

1st Necron
I made 6 armor saves and 11 RP rolls, you killed 6 guys.
My army moves forward. Those in range fire.

2nd SM
gak alright...dang. Okay, so these guys teleport back, those guys hide behind their pods a bit so you can't assault them, the pods fire, the rhinos move forward and block the troops. I fire again...I did 34 wounds!

2nd Necron
I make 11 armor saves and 10 RP rolls. Not bad, you killed 1 squad of warriors.
My troops fire on the transports and tanks and my wraiths charge your front line.


From here, the necron player will continue moving forward and firing gauss weapons while the wraiths chase targets down. They are boring. They don't have special rules (Tau) that are active, they don't have powers or weird combos (Eldar, Daemons), or a combination of the two (SM, Wolves to an extent). They just plod forward, charging what they can, assaulting what they can.
They used to be more dynamic with deathmarks, some equipment, and special characters but not anymore really. It's just decurion + lord + SC form 2 bubbles and move forward.

Alcibiades wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Warriors can beat meqs. It takes a while but they beat them for sure.

I've done the math on this. It depends on whether the MEQs (if we are talking marines here) use tactical/assault doctrines or not.

And they all know this.

Warriors I2 A1 4+& 5/4+++ They attack last, have a 50% chance to save IF the weapon has no AP4 or better, then get a 50% save for RP for a 25% casualty rate
ANY meq they fight has a 33% casualty rate, but attacks first, has the potential for a much greater number of attacks, and better wargear options, including AP2 weapons.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
hi guys,
im just a friendly player so forgive me if this is a silly question but ive seen several posts about how necrons are boring to play against. after reading it seems that this is because they are just hard to kill. is this the reason why theyre boring, becaue theyre hard to kill?
that makes them unfun to play against?

It's a big part of it. If you can't do anything to them, it feels very non-interactive, like everything you do just doesn't matter. The other part is, due to the obvious power advantages of the Decurion and relatively "fixed" nature of formations, Necron armies tend to be extremely uniform in nature, such that it feels like you're just playing minor variations on the same list over and over, and despite repeated exposure to what seems to be the same army all the time, there's often just no way to counter it effectively due to it's ability to just shrug everything off and the speed with which they can operate (contrary to many statements that Necrons are slow, they really are one of the fastest armies in the game between Wraiths, scarabs, flyers and flyer transports, jetbikes and relentless/MTC infantry with open topped skimmer transports)

 adamsouza wrote:
I composed and then deleted a huge response.

Warriors can charge and beat things weaker than MEQs. When my warriors get to do that someday, I'll be happy about having Relentless, but it's still going to be a rarity, since the vast majority of players field MEQs, that's what they are likely to encounter.

Since my warriors tend to hold objectives in the back field, they don't often deal with cannon fodder troops. They are more likely to encounter deep striking shock troops, FMC's, and fast attack choices.

Sure, if all you're facing is MEQ's with organic special CC weapons like powerfists in every unit, that might be fair. That said, a basic Decurion Warrior will defeat a basic Tac marine in CC a majority of the time despite striking second, so if the MEQ's don't have a hidden powerfist or aren't all sporting multiple attacks or something, they can still work, and against pretty much every other army in the game (and any rear AV10 tank) the Relentless Warrior has some incredible utility.

And you're ignoring the relentless advantage.

A marine can, at most, get 3 attacks at str 4. 1 pistol plus charge. A necron gets 4, 2 from rapid fire 2 from charging.

So really, a necron warrior gets +1 attack if charging and a better save, and is much more resistant to power weapons due to RP (which seems to also have been ignored). Since most of the better CC units have some way of ignoring armor, this makes necron warriors function as decent tarpits.

Akiasura wrote:
And you're ignoring the relentless advantage.

A marine can, at most, get 3 attacks at str 4. 1 pistol plus charge. A necron gets 4, 2 from rapid fire 2 from charging.

So really, a necron warrior gets +1 attack if charging and a better save, and is much more resistant to power weapons due to RP (which seems to also have been ignored). Since most of the better CC units have some way of ignoring armor, this makes necron warriors function as decent tarpits.

To be fair, Warriors don't auto-have Move Through Cover and Relentless. Only through the formations can they get those.

That being said, even with those rules, Warriors will still get swept against any dedicated CC unit unless backed up by a character.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
And you're ignoring the relentless advantage.

A marine can, at most, get 3 attacks at str 4. 1 pistol plus charge. A necron gets 4, 2 from rapid fire 2 from charging.

So really, a necron warrior gets +1 attack if charging and a better save, and is much more resistant to power weapons due to RP (which seems to also have been ignored). Since most of the better CC units have some way of ignoring armor, this makes necron warriors function as decent tarpits.

To be fair, Warriors don't auto-have Move Through Cover and Relentless. Only through the formations can they get those.

That being said, even with those rules, Warriors will still get swept against any dedicated CC unit unless backed up by a character.

I keep seeing this, and it bothers me. In all my games against Necrons (I have a buddy who plays them as his main, I've played roughly 50 games against him) I've swept his guys 1/5 times. Outside a Decurion, you still have to get past a non-ignorable 5+ FNP (at worst a 6+), most likely a Lord, do enough wounds, and hope they fail their LD 10. Can it be done? Sure, but most of the times I end up killing the unit through wounds rather than sweeping. Maybe if they didn't have LD 10 (compared to a Tac Marines 8??) I'd be more inclined to believe this.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
And you're ignoring the relentless advantage.

A marine can, at most, get 3 attacks at str 4. 1 pistol plus charge. A necron gets 4, 2 from rapid fire 2 from charging.

So really, a necron warrior gets +1 attack if charging and a better save, and is much more resistant to power weapons due to RP (which seems to also have been ignored). Since most of the better CC units have some way of ignoring armor, this makes necron warriors function as decent tarpits.

To be fair, Warriors don't auto-have Move Through Cover and Relentless. Only through the formations can they get those.

That being said, even with those rules, Warriors will still get swept against any dedicated CC unit unless backed up by a character.

I keep seeing this, and it bothers me. In all my games against Necrons (I have a buddy who plays them as his main, I've played roughly 50 games against him) I've swept his guys 1/5 times. Outside a Decurion, you still have to get past a non-ignorable 5+ FNP (at worst a 6+), most likely a Lord, do enough wounds, and hope they fail their LD 10. Can it be done? Sure, but most of the times I end up killing the unit through wounds rather than sweeping. Maybe if they didn't have LD 10 (compared to a Tac Marines 8??) I'd be more inclined to believe this.

Can Warriors be resilient? Yes. But everytime I stick in CC against a good unit, it's usually because of character support. Warriors on their own aren't that intimidating.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
And you're ignoring the relentless advantage.

A marine can, at most, get 3 attacks at str 4. 1 pistol plus charge. A necron gets 4, 2 from rapid fire 2 from charging.

So really, a necron warrior gets +1 attack if charging and a better save, and is much more resistant to power weapons due to RP (which seems to also have been ignored). Since most of the better CC units have some way of ignoring armor, this makes necron warriors function as decent tarpits.

To be fair, Warriors don't auto-have Move Through Cover and Relentless. Only through the formations can they get those.

That being said, even with those rules, Warriors will still get swept against any dedicated CC unit unless backed up by a character.

I keep seeing this, and it bothers me. In all my games against Necrons (I have a buddy who plays them as his main, I've played roughly 50 games against him) I've swept his guys 1/5 times. Outside a Decurion, you still have to get past a non-ignorable 5+ FNP (at worst a 6+), most likely a Lord, do enough wounds, and hope they fail their LD 10. Can it be done? Sure, but most of the times I end up killing the unit through wounds rather than sweeping. Maybe if they didn't have LD 10 (compared to a Tac Marines 8??) I'd be more inclined to believe this.

Can Warriors be resilient? Yes. But everytime I stick in CC against a good unit, it's usually because of character support. Warriors on their own aren't that intimidating.

But they're TROOPS. You don't see a problem wasting a CC dedicated unit on Troops? If I have to throw a deathstar at troops to make an impact, maybe there's an issue.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
And you're ignoring the relentless advantage.

A marine can, at most, get 3 attacks at str 4. 1 pistol plus charge. A necron gets 4, 2 from rapid fire 2 from charging.

So really, a necron warrior gets +1 attack if charging and a better save, and is much more resistant to power weapons due to RP (which seems to also have been ignored). Since most of the better CC units have some way of ignoring armor, this makes necron warriors function as decent tarpits.

To be fair, Warriors don't auto-have Move Through Cover and Relentless. Only through the formations can they get those.

That being said, even with those rules, Warriors will still get swept against any dedicated CC unit unless backed up by a character.

I keep seeing this, and it bothers me. In all my games against Necrons (I have a buddy who plays them as his main, I've played roughly 50 games against him) I've swept his guys 1/5 times. Outside a Decurion, you still have to get past a non-ignorable 5+ FNP (at worst a 6+), most likely a Lord, do enough wounds, and hope they fail their LD 10. Can it be done? Sure, but most of the times I end up killing the unit through wounds rather than sweeping. Maybe if they didn't have LD 10 (compared to a Tac Marines 8??) I'd be more inclined to believe this.

Can Warriors be resilient? Yes. But everytime I stick in CC against a good unit, it's usually because of character support. Warriors on their own aren't that intimidating.

But they're TROOPS. You don't see a problem wasting a CC dedicated unit on Troops? If I have to throw a deathstar at troops to make an impact, maybe there's an issue.

I'm not saying a deathstar. I'm saying anything with Ap4 in CC or better. Even with a Sergeant with a PF you could do a number.

Yeah I'm not saying they go in against a dedicated cc unit. I'm saying anything that isn't a dedicated cc unit won't take them down, and a typical necron army has a decent amount of dedicated cc units. Almost wolf levels if not more.

Akiasura wrote:
Yeah I'm not saying they go in against a dedicated cc unit. I'm saying anything that isn't a dedicated cc unit won't take them down,

So, okay. Let me get this straight. You're saying to try and take out a non-cc unit with another non-cc unit, and because Tac marines can't do it, there's a problem? Have you ever heard of Stab the shooty and shoot the stabby? That's like me complaining that my Immortals can't out-shoot Scatbikes. Necrons are tough, so don't play into their strength.

Now, if you're talking about getting charged by them, then look at it this way. Necron Warriors will probably tie you up (or make you run, in which case either result is good for space marines thanks to ATSKNF). If you're tied up, Necron warriors aren't shooting, and it's a tarpit. That is actually probably good for you, since our warriors are used to kill things such as Drop Pods and other vehicles.

and a typical necron army has a decent amount of dedicated cc units. Almost wolf levels if not more.

And no. Just no. Our CC is good, but not Wolf levels of good.

You are misreading, I didn't say the quality of units is at wolf levels, although it's not far off, I said the quantity of units is close. Which is true, wolves don't spam cc units, usually around 4 total at most. Wraiths are seen in similar numbers, and wolves can take just two units of twc easily if they want giving neurons the numerical advantage.

And while yes, ideally, you want to shoot the stabby and such, typically in most games this doesn't happen. People don't take much stabby, if they take any at all. Look at the most popular armies...eldar, tau, sm don't take much stabby. It's usually zero or one unit that is a star of some kind. Having a unit that can charge in and a non cc unit is completely viable in a real game.

Honestly in current 40k the only armies that can utilize that strategy are neurons and wolves, since they lean towards combined arms. Daemons maybe. Most of the stronger armies skew heavily, and catching a non cc unit in cc and holding them there till the wraiths arrive is gold.

Tac marines are neither shooty nor choppy. That's why they fail at every task they are given.

 adamsouza wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
. Example: D-lord, in a 20 warrior unit, with a stalker with heat ray walking up behind. The Warriors are putting out up to 40 shots a turn, none will miss and no amount of equivalent point firepower is putting a dent in that unit. The walker will always have a 5 up cover guaranteed to delete at least 1 unit a turn (ANY UNIT) for less than 350 points

How did you get "less than 350 points" ?

Destroyer Lord 110pts
Triarch Stalker 125pts
20 Necron Warriors 260pts

I haven't run crons since mid 6th. I asked my buddy how much the unit was and he gave me "about 350". Did mention he left out the stalker but in truth the stalker isn't contributing all that much unless you're rolling dice that have been weighted with 2s facing up. Hell even for 500 I can't think of any infantry unit that is guaranteed to kill a unit of anything from gaunts to russes in a single round of shooting, (sans scat bikes, but we all know what scat bikes do/are). Mind you this is before the charge.

Also, 4, Str 4 attacks from a 13 point model with a non-negotiable 4+ (5+ at worse) FNP is pretty stupid. Even in the wraith of formations . Even dumber when you consider half of them are gauss.

Don't think you can kill it? Tarpit it and bring in your robot homies to finish the job. Or tarpit and ignore. Good job. You just tied up a deathstar with 260 points of infantry. 260 points of infantry which your transports will likely generate elsewhere over the course of the game.

Alright, so a couple of things...

Dantes_Baals wrote:

I haven't run crons since mid 6th. I asked my buddy how much the unit was and he gave me "about 350". Did mention he left out the stalker but in truth the stalker isn't contributing all that much unless you're rolling dice that have been weighted with 2s facing up. Hell even for 500 I can't think of any infantry unit that is guaranteed to kill a unit of anything from gaunts to russes in a single round of shooting, (sans scat bikes, but we all know what scat bikes do/are). Mind you this is before the charge.

Centurion Devastators with Grav Cannons and Hurricane Bolters? Tacticals with a Metla gun and Drop pod? And before you say "A metla gun isn't guaranteed to kill a vehicle", neither is Gauss. Any Necron player will tell you how much "rely" on Gauss as a means to kill vehicles. Just because it can doesn't mean it will.

Also, 4, Str 4 attacks from a 13 point model with a non-negotiable 4+ (5+ at worse) FNP is pretty stupid. Even in the wraith of formations . Even dumber when you consider half of them are gauss.

In an army with lack of 2+ saves and no invisibility? Not that dumb. And before you enter with your rebuttal, I've fought Dark Eldar MCs with T7 and 4+ FNP, Centurion Devastators with 2+/4+ FNP, I've also fought Smashfucker with his shenanigans. Then you have Riptides, Stormsurges, Wraithknights, ext. Reanimation Protocols is strong, but at this point in 7th edition, it isn't that "stupid".

Don't think you can kill it? Tarpit it and bring in your robot homies to finish the job. Or tarpit and ignore.

Oh look at that, the only way Necrons can deal with a lot of things in game currently, since we don't have D or Grav or psychic powers or spammable high strength/low ap weaponry. Darn us for having at least something we can do.

Good job. You just tied up a deathstar with 260 points of infantry.

I wouldn't consider it a deathstar if warriors can tie it up. Seriously, what kind of deathstar are you fielding?

260 points of infantry which your transports will likely generate elsewhere over the course of the game.

If you have trouble killing a Ghost Ark, then I don't know what to say to you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Tac marines are neither shooty nor choppy. That's why they fail at every task they are given.

Except taking objectives and winning the game with points. That tends to happen.

Okay a couple of things.

Can Grav cents kill a swarm on 30 gaunts 1 turn then a full squadron of russes the next? Nope. I'm not ragging on the crons durability like most. I'm ragging on the fact that they are the most versatile troops in the game that are harder to kill than marines with stormshields with a higher damage output.

Speaking on durability I know it's the necrons thing, but when you have 13 point models with 4+RPs, rerolling ones is dumb. Especially with all the other bonuses they get from decurion. I can't think of anyone who would argue that with a straight face. I'm fine with necrons being tough. Not as much with their foot infantry that cost as much as a Genestealer being as tough as smashfuckers retinue without the bikes. And before you start in on marines keep in mind not everyone is a WA AC running IH.

You know what kind of deathstars get tarpitted, by 260 points of space mummies? Any kind of deathstar in a 1250 game or less.

Also I don't know what kind of cheating marines e players you've been playing with, but tacs get 2 melta shots when they disembark. 3 if they're Ultras using devestator doctrine on tac marines (why?). So under most circumstances if one misses he's got about a 2/3 chance to pop A tank. That's if the melta roll doesn't go south. They aren't deleting squadrons in a single shooting phase with 40+ haywire shots that reroll 1st on BS4/5 etc.

Lastly, I never complained about ghost arks. I just stated that using a big unit of warriors as a tarpit or sacrificial unit isn't really a loss at all because the those Warriors will show up elsewhere... but by all means man, keep putting words in my mouth. It doesn't make your argument look weak at all...

Dantes_Baals wrote:

Can Grav cents kill a swarm on 30 gaunts 1 turn then a full squadron of russes the next?

Umm, Scatbikes can do the first. But otherwise, Grav Cents have a better chance of taking out a squadron of tanks than Warriors do. And to boot, if we're talking about the Destroyer Lord joining them, that becomes a much more expensive unit than your Grav Cents.

I'm ragging on the fact that they are the most versatile troops in the game

Versatile. You are correct. They have a rather unreliable way of killing vehicles. Good thing we have all of our Grav, D, Melta, Haywire, and everything else to take care of vehicles. Oh wait, that's not us.

that are harder to kill than marines with stormshields with a higher damage output.

This is just false.

Speaking on durability I know it's the necrons thing, but when you have 13 point models with 4+RPs, rerolling ones is dumb. Especially with all the other bonuses they get from decurion. I can't think of anyone who would argue that with a straight face. I'm fine with necrons being tough. Not as much with their foot infantry that cost as much as a Genestealer being as tough as smashfuckers retinue without the bikes. And before you start in on marines keep in mind not everyone is a WA AC running IH.

Genestealers are a bad example, as everyone knows they're terrible. And I wish my warriors were as tough as that retinue. Too bad if that retinue got hit with an Ion Accelerator dead center, they would shrug it off. My Warriors wouldn't be so lucky. And I'm not saying everyone is WAAC, I'm simply staying to the point of this thread, as far as Necrons being in the top 4 armies in the game based on what they have access to and can potentially bring to the table. In a casual setting, Necrons are still good, WAAC or not, but you act like you playing your fluffy Ultramarines Tacticals led by a Captain standing out front should be able to take it on with ease.

You know what kind of deathstars get tarpitted, by 260 points of space mummies? Any kind of deathstar in a 1250 game or less.

Which is?

Also I don't know what kind of cheating marines e players you've been playing with, but tacs get 2 melta shots when they disembark. 3 if they're Ultras using devestator doctrine on tac marines (why?). So under most circumstances if one misses he's got about a 2/3 chance to pop A tank. That's if the melta roll doesn't go south.

And more than half the time I open up into vehicles and come up short on 6s. Again, ask any Necron player. Relying on 6s isn't going to get you anywhere.

They aren't deleting squadrons in a single shooting phase with 40+ haywire shots that reroll 1st on BS4/5 etc.

Neither are Necrons. In fact, I don't think anyone has that much Haywire, save for maybe Admech if you do it right.

Lastly, I never complained about ghost arks. I just stated that using a big unit of warriors as a tarpit or sacrificial unit isn't really a loss at all because the those Warriors will show up elsewhere... but by all means man, keep putting words in my mouth. It doesn't make your argument look weak at all...

A. You certainly made it sound like you were annoyed, and your annoyance pointing towards Ghost Arks. B. Sacrificial Warriors? I wouldn't call 260 points a "sacrificial unit". C. How are they showing up elsewhere? The Ghost Ark can only add onto a current unit, not taking it over it's starting size. Unless, of course, you're talking about the formation from the Start Collecting! box set. In which case, that's not in a Decurion, and lacks the bonuses you obviously hate.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

Can Grav cents kill a swarm on 30 gaunts 1 turn then a full squadron of russes the next?

Umm, Scatbikes can do the first. But otherwise, Grav Cents have a better chance of taking out a squadron of tanks than Warriors do. And to boot, if we're talking about the Destroyer Lord joining them, that becomes a much more expensive unit than your Grav Cents.

A few counters to this
1) You can't talk about grav cents AND scat bikes. They are taken by two different armies, you have to stick to one...I guess I'll call it list...when making these kind of comparisons. You can compare Scatbikes and WG/FD, or Centstars and TFC/horde removal unit.

2) Comparing them to Scatbikes and Grav Cents seems a little unfair to me personally, though I know you didn't bring it up originally. You're talking about the most broken units in the game, Warriors won't compare to that. That doesn't mean warriors aren't a good choice, it just means they aren't broken beyond belief.

3) Cents are almost always taken as a star, and a cent star is going to cost a lot more than the warriors. Will it be better? Against the vast majority of targets, yes. Will they always be better? No. Daemons and other units with poor saves or Str D blast templates work very well against cents. Will the Warriors ever be bad choices? Doubtful, they are the most versatile troop in the game. Not powerful, but versatile.

 krodarklorr wrote:

I'm ragging on the fact that they are the most versatile troops in the game

Versatile. You are correct. They have a rather unreliable way of killing vehicles. Good thing we have all of our Grav, D, Melta, Haywire, and everything else to take care of vehicles. Oh wait, that's not us.

For space marines, not a lot of units can effectively take str D or grav weapons. It's really Knights, which warriors do well against, or cents/bikes. Grav pigeons them into a role.
Melta and haywire really a certain army list since they need to be dropped in. I'm not to sure where haywire is in the marine codex.

Eldar, if that's what you are referring to, lack grav but have good access to D, decent access to melta, and bad access to haywire now. They have problems with enough AV spam nowadays but handle it better than most armies. Necrons do about as good or better. Marines with grav spam still do very well against tanks of course, most likely the best in the game at removing large amounts of AV.

Necrons, however, are always tough and can target any unit in the game thanks to gauss, and at decent ranges. Keep in mind, a SM squad with 2 meltas in a pod is very expensive compared to warriors. You're looking at ~180 or more points for that cost. A warrior squad would be ~15 strong for the same cost, so you get 5 extra bodies (10 more shots) that are tougher to remove and do roughly the same HP damage outside of the damage table. There is a reason you don't see basic marines in lists.
Now, sternguard with all combi is fine, but they aren't nearly as tough and tend to target one thing and explode. Not the same role as warriors at all.

 krodarklorr wrote:

that are harder to kill than marines with stormshields with a higher damage output.

This is just false.

For the points? It's true. Granted, the only basic marine I could think of with a SS is a wulfen, which is 50 points for a 2W 4T 3++ model with FnP. It's an extremely solid unit.
I can take 4 Warriors for that, who will be 4W 4T 4+ 4 or 5 RP with possible re-rolls. It's a strong choice, and while weaker in CC, can still absorb things better than the Wulfen can outside of a few targets (wulfen are arguably better against grav, worse against scat bikes for the cost).

 krodarklorr wrote:

Speaking on durability I know it's the necrons thing, but when you have 13 point models with 4+RPs, rerolling ones is dumb. Especially with all the other bonuses they get from decurion. I can't think of anyone who would argue that with a straight face. I'm fine with necrons being tough. Not as much with their foot infantry that cost as much as a Genestealer being as tough as smashfuckers retinue without the bikes. And before you start in on marines keep in mind not everyone is a WA AC running IH.

Genestealers are a bad example, as everyone knows they're terrible. And I wish my warriors were as tough as that retinue. Too bad if that retinue got hit with an Ion Accelerator dead center, they would shrug it off. My Warriors wouldn't be so lucky. And I'm not saying everyone is WAAC, I'm simply staying to the point of this thread, as far as Necrons being in the top 4 armies in the game based on what they have access to and can potentially bring to the table. In a casual setting, Necrons are still good, WAAC or not, but you act like you playing your fluffy Ultramarines Tacticals led by a Captain standing out front should be able to take it on with ease.

Necrons don't take many warriors in a WAAC environment though. It tends to be more about wraiths and other, better units. Few armies spam troops in a WAAC setting.

 krodarklorr wrote:

You know what kind of deathstars get tarpitted, by 260 points of space mummies? Any kind of deathstar in a 1250 game or less.

Which is?

I don't understand your question. A few stars will get pinned, but not all. TWC can do well against the warriors due to so many attacks and TH, but other units struggle to inflict enough wounds before the wraiths charge in. I don't see why a points level matters either tbh, few stars cost over 1k in points.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Also I don't know what kind of cheating marines e players you've been playing with, but tacs get 2 melta shots when they disembark. 3 if they're Ultras using devestator doctrine on tac marines (why?). So under most circumstances if one misses he's got about a 2/3 chance to pop A tank. That's if the melta roll doesn't go south.

And more than half the time I open up into vehicles and come up short on 6s. Again, ask any Necron player. Relying on 6s isn't going to get you anywhere.

I'm not sure why anyone thinks 2 meltas will pop a tank...they don't. 3 might, but even then only 2 are likely to hit, then with everything else I doubt the odds go too far above 50%. Most tanks have 3HP after all.
A squad of 15 warriors, however, will do 30 shots, 20 hits, usually 3 HP worth of damage. If it's got AV 10, they can charge for another 30 Str 4 attacks. That's not great, but its better than most drop pod melta lists in terms of damage. Drop pods do it quicker however, so there is a trade off.

I think that basically this argument comes down to one side feeling like they like the utility of having an option to shoot+charge and the other side feeling that charging isn't worth it.

I don't think anyone is going to win that argument. It's basically an argument about play-style. I don't think anybody is wrong with the way they are choosing to play.

But lets be 100% honest with ourselves. Relentless is not why you run Decurion.

The fact that grav always gives full FNP is a huge bonus for Necrons.

Qlanth wrote:
I think that basically this argument comes down to one side feeling like they like the utility of having an option to shoot+charge and the other side feeling that charging isn't worth it.

I don't think anyone is going to win that argument. It's basically an argument about play-style. I don't think anybody is wrong with the way they are choosing to play.

But lets be 100% honest with ourselves. Relentless is not why you run Decurion.

I agree, you don't run it because of relentless.
Relentless is a nice rule because it removes a weakness (shoot or charge?) from a unit that already doesn't have a ton of weaknesses. If warriors had better weapons, say Assault 2/3, they'd be up there with scatbikes for best unit in the game. But still, it's not bad and it's come up for me before.

It's salt in a wound. Marines are supposed to be generalists, but then are equipped with a weapon that prevents them from being generalists.

In my 40K rewrite, I'd make bolters assault or give Astartes counterattack. One or the other. Anything else is beyond stupid.

Or just give certain chapters the ability to purchase CCW's. Scouts + Bikers are my go-to Troops for a reason.

At a tournament level no. Nothing short of 24 wraiths is very scary. In regular play with a normal Necron army they are really just like a blue control deck in magic where you can grind down most opponents which I think is fun and risky since it melts to everything from deathstars to fast heavy assault armies like thunderwolves, demons, and knights.