Some of the formations are actually pretty great in the new Traitors Hate book! Im not going to spoil everything you should get the books yourselves but have a look at this!
I think this formation is great and just what warp talons needed to be pretty decent
The lost and the Damned is good news for anyone who liked to use cultists. 50% odds of replacing the squad with an identical one, on it's destruction isn't shabby. Them gaining outflank, on returning, makes it even better.
Wow, my chaos could do something other than be the army I use to handicap myself, maybe. Still a lot of crunching to do, at least there are no free vehicles. Death to the false emperor makes me happy though, considering how many imperial armies there are hatred for all of them is strong.
The real questions becomes what to use as your core and which auxiliaries to use. Even with the formation I don't know if berserkers will be good enough to justify that many points, which leaves the chaos warband and the lost and the damned. The chaos warband seems like the default choice, gobs of obsec, a fair mix of unit types, including some we haven't seen on the board in a dogs age. The lost and the damned will be choice if the auxiliary units are the formations you are after. Like the obliterators formation for instance, doubling their firepower certainly makes them hit above their weight.
The limitations on the Obliterators are pretty rough though, The no weapon twice in a row rule sucks already.
With the need to stay near the character, deep striking them in seems way to tricky to pull off and having to cycle through the different weapons will make staying in range really tough.
Grimgold wrote: Wow, my chaos could do something other than be the army I use to handicap myself, maybe. Still a lot of crunching to do, at least there are no free vehicles. Death to the false emperor makes me happy though, considering how many imperial armies there are hatred for all of them is strong.
The real questions becomes what to use as your core and which auxiliaries to use. Even with the formation I don't know if berserkers will be good enough to justify that many points, which leaves the chaos warband and the lost and the damned. The chaos warband seems like the default choice, gobs of obsec, a fair mix of unit types, including some we haven't seen on the board in a dogs age. The lost and the damned will be choice if the auxiliary units are the formations you are after. Like the obliterators formation for instance, doubling their firepower certainly makes them hit above their weight.
Its seems as if there are a lot of viable competative options in this book, throw in the new powers and maybe a formation or two like the cabal in black legion and chaos has some pretty decent little toys. I am honestly giddy for my warp talons and raptors, a cheaper more viable option for vehicle killing in constrast to terminators and warp talons will rip whole units of SM troops or even eldar bikes
Red Rain: Ork ability from the starter pack.....wow.
Vindicator/Predator squadrons: Nice buff right there, literally zero downsides to it.
Favored of Chaos: Another great buff for Chaos that has ZERO downsides.
Raptor Talon: assault from deep strike but counts as disordered....holy christ I have been wanting this for my orks forever.
Cult of destruction: Holy crap, this will make oblits even better. The downside that has been mentioned (can't double fire weapons from previous turns) that sucks and all but think of it this way. You would have fired that weapon the next turn anyway, this way your killing more models before they get a chance to fire back. The drawbacks for this are minuscule if they even exist.
Hellforged Warpack: Your vehicle becomes a character and gains a 4++. You can use Demon forge twice and if they ever kill your character the rest of the warpack gains Rage.....Again, ZERO downsides, all good, all around.'
Lost and Damned: Endless cultists, not bad, not particularly great, but this will be a good way to get your troop tax in and gain some cool rules.
Chaos Warband: Obj Secure out the arse, Get 2 rolls on the boon table and you get to pick or take both....nice. Again ZERO downsides.
Overall this is a HUGE buff for CSM. This inevitably ends the debate about which codex is worse Orks or CSM. At this point I think it is fair to say Orks are the worst now :( With that said though, CSM are still not OP and are still a good pairing for orks.
Chaos Warband
Overall this seems like a nice little buff for CSM. Only time will tell if this helps out CSM in the competitive scene at all, but to me it's a step in the right direction
Any ideas as to what the terminator formation is? That seems to be the only one missing.
Overall these look pretty promising. Entertaining and fluffy, but not totally broken. The possed and oblit ones look fun. Speedy shrouded Crimson possessed might actually be worth the point cost.
If the Favoured of Chaos formation is usable with Crimson Slaughter, the possessed in that one would be ridiculous. 3++, Beast, Rending, all for 22 points? Holy crap. Doubly so if they take a Nurgle Mark; you'd have an entire army of mini-daemon princes.
The other one I noticed was the Raptor Talon and how it lets you charge after deep striking. Even if it's a disordered charge, letting Warp Talons charge right after deepstrike is just too good to pass up (and the fact that more than one of them is actually gonna make it into combat completely offsets the drawback of a disordered charge).
I'm sure these would be rule-debate nightmares in the coming days but for now, Chaos Marines haven't been thrown a bone this good in a long time. Not to mention now I can field all my obliterators and Vindicators without having to take 4 separate CADs. And the vindis all have Daemonic Possession. EHEHEHEHE.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: If the Favoured of Chaos formation is usable with Crimson Slaughter, the possessed in that one would be ridiculous. 3++, Beast, Rending, all for 22 points? Holy crap. Doubly so if they take a Nurgle Mark; you'd have an entire army of mini-daemon princes.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: If the Favoured of Chaos formation is usable with Crimson Slaughter, the possessed in that one would be ridiculous. 3++, Beast, Rending, all for 22 points? Holy crap. Doubly so if they take a Nurgle Mark; you'd have an entire army of mini-daemon princes.
Pretty sure Possessed are 26 a pop.
*throws pants in the air * Don't care! 3++, Beast and Rending Baby!
#1 - Over-all Formation. More free stuff; I think this is one of the few times free stuff is okay. First off, basic Chaos Space Marines are just... terrible. So tossing them a bone is okay. Remember that Veterans of the Long War does two things. First, it gives the unit Hatred (Space Marines), but that doesn't matter because it's superseded by the mega-formation's Hatred (Armies of the Imperium). Secondly, it gives the unit +1Ld, which rarely matters. So, it might be free, but generally speaking it's 5 points per unit of free stuff rather than 35 points per unit of free stuff. Not sure how to make this worthwhile yet, but I'm guessing trying to dig for Daemon Princes is going to be the way to go. If you can get one Daemon Prince per game with this effect, it'll be worthwhile. As such, keeping these units minimally sized is likely the way to go, and maybe with Ob Sec Rhinos and Mark of Nurgle too.
#2 - Chaos Warband. Getting Ob Sec on a whole formation is going to be the strength of the Chaos Warband. This is likely the formation that you'll want to use the Mega-Formation's ability on to help hunt for Daemon Princes.
#3 - Trinity of Blood. No, I am not putting together a formation of Super Heavies. I do like having opponents to play against. That said, the biggest bonus here is probably Rampage, and the Aploplectic Storm will ensure Ork Boyz and Necron Warriors never trouble you again. Now, if Ork Boyz are causing you issues, you got bigger issues. I feel sad for any person who ever brings the Green Tide against this, because it'll be the most pointless game ever. Also, did GW realize how long it'll take to randomly allocate all these wounds? Seriously!
#4 - Favoured of Chaos. Like most of the units listed here, these do not benefit really in any way from the free Veterans of the Long War upgrade, as they are already Fearless. I don't think this bonus is really what Possessed needed, but it's still pretty darn good! Having guaranteed power swords, 3 attacks at initiative 5, and shred... these guys will eat almost anything in close combat... if they can reach close combat. Interestingly enough, the chance to go up to Initiative 6 through the Mark of Slannesh here is an option, though Mark of Nurgle is likely still the best bet.
#5 - Raptor Talon. Just to let folks know, you have a better chance of Blinding the Space Marines than you do causing them to fail a Fear test, and the same applies to all the units in the game that you care about. It's easier to blind Tau, Orks, Necrons, Space Marines, Imperial Guard, and Tyranids than it is to cause them to fail a Fear test... even one done at -2 Ld. The only people that will be easier to Fear out will be the pointy-eared ones (Eldar, Harlequins, and Dark Eldar). Still, charging after deep striking, that's pretty awesome. Little that's quite as good as doing this. Any target that can't survive in combat is dead, and if they do survive you are immune to return fire. Not getting +1 attack for being a disordered charge isn't a big deal. Also note, since you Deep Striked this turn, you can use either the reroll for charging OR gain Hammer of Wrath, meaning a good deep strike roll almost effectively nullifies the penalty of a it being a disordered charge. Lastly, as a disordered charge, you have almost no reason NOT to multi-charge!
#6 - Fist of the Gods. What rubbish. 6+ Inv save is almost useless, and getting +1 bonus to repair rolls would only be good if you had other bonuses to repairing... which you do not have. This formation doesn't benefit from anything in the mega-formation either.
#7 - Cult of Destruction. This is a great formation, for SO many reasons! First off, you actually get some real use out of the Veterans of the Long War trait here, as Oblits are normally only Ld8, so going to Ld9 is a sizeable improvement. Secondly, the ability to allow a unit of Oblits to fire TWICE is insanely powerful. I guess I'll have to buy some more Oblits and a Warp Smith now.
#8 - Terror Pack. Hey, you like Heldrakes, right? Well, there are some definite uses here. Sending a few of these across the table will heavily hurt your opponent's Leadership tests, but note that being within 12 inches of ALL THREE of these isn't so easy, as you need room for the flyers themselves. Imperial Guard are the only things I know to go to ground, so I will enjoy using this against them, but I don't see it against any others. Still, 3 Heldrakes are 3 Heldrakes, so yeah.
#9 - Helforged Warpack. What does "second and/or subsequent time" mean? Does this mean I can use it every turn? That I can use it just a second time? Or I can use it a second and third time, but then that's it? Meh, no matter, because I won't be using this formation, because it's another "please use this terrible Warpsmith" formation. At least one model gains a 4+ Inv save, and once it's dead you can... get an extra close combat attack? Meh... I'll pass.
#10 - The Lost and the Damned. The most interesting thing here is that this gives you access to a Dark Apostle, which, when put into a unit of Chaos Space Marines from the Chaos Warband, you get FOUR chances per turn at a Daemon Prince, giving you about a 1 in 5 chance each turn at successfully getting a Daemon Prince. Is that worth 305 points? I doubt it, but at least you get more units to contest with...
#11 - Maelstrom of Gore. Getting Fleet and +3" to a charge range is a big increase in movement potential, and the chance to Pile On Da Pain and pretend to be a Wulfen for a turn. Wait... Wulfen get that ALL THE TIME!?! I call shenanigans!
The good thing about the Helforged Warpack is that I get to live out my dreams of being a Pokemon Trainer in the grim darkness of the 41st millenium. With 80% more corruption and 90% less cuteness!
adamsouza wrote: The lost and the Damned is good news for anyone who liked to use cultists. 50% odds of replacing the squad with an identical one, on it's destruction isn't shabby. Them gaining outflank, on returning, makes it even better.
But they cant carry special weapons such as melta guns and plasma or flamers compared to Renegades and Heretics Unending Host.
adamsouza wrote: The lost and the Damned is good news for anyone who liked to use cultists. 50% odds of replacing the squad with an identical one, on it's destruction isn't shabby. Them gaining outflank, on returning, makes it even better.
But they cant carry special weapons such as melta guns and plasma or flamers compared to Renegades and Heretics Unending Host.
But they can be turned into zombies unlike the Renegadee and Heretics. Also outflank is nice, and they can carry flamers and heavy stubbers.
Black Crusade Detachment: Not amazing, but not bad either.
Getting free boons stacking up during the game is nice, and it works well with the power granted by the warband itself. the Hatered (IoM) is practically meaningless as the VotLW already gives it against marines, and that's most IoM, and against SoB/IG/Admech its unlikely to have an impact as you should be butchering them already. the free VoTLW is nice for solving your moral issues a bit though.
The real treat is the fact, you get one-unit auxillary choices in either cult marines, or spawn. so tis very, very easy to turn any chaos warband to a full black crusade detachment. A-
Chaos Warband: Big, flexible, and decent powers. rerolling boons may not be much, but obsec helbrutes/terminators is sweet and the sheer flexibility compared to the demi company is amazing. and as mentioned, the ability to turn it into a black crusade by simply putting down a simple spawn (or lots of spawn, or any cult marine unit) means that its very functional in the small game too.A-
Malstorm of Gore: Not too shabby. long distance charges and the ability to strike again in the movement phase (although once per game) are pretty good. being a possible core makes this quite a bit more interesting. B
The lost and the Damned: When you really want some backline objective grabbers to stick despite enemy bombardment, this will work. will not work against anything that actually went there and took it by force, or god forbid assault, but at least gunning down your rear objectives will be hard. the outflank won't mean much as they can't bring anything too dangerous like a melta or something with them, it just makes spreading them around easier. B
Favored of Chaos: all three mutations is pretty sick. can defiantly see this being used. do note, due to the way this is worded it does NOT work with crimson slaughter. this triggers an override to the start of fight sub-phases ability, crimson slaughter is at start of turn, and a different ability. so no 3++ beasts with rending. you do however have your generic possessed with 3 base attacks at S5AP3 that reroll to wound and possibly to hit at initiative 5. so if its not in termi armor, its mulched.B+
Trinity of Blood: Irrelevant to the game, far too big pointwise, even when using kytans. in apoclayptic games though, this is rather sweet. X
Fist of the Gods: 6++ to tanks is not much as SoB shows, and the +1 ot repair rolls is negletible. this is the "bring tanks" formation, but not big on buffs. C
Raptor Talon: free jump pack for lord and the ability to CHARGE FROM DEEPSTRIKE, this synergies so well with the warp talon blind attack that the -2 to enemy LD that got hit by two units is just icing on a very sweet cake. this is going to be amazing. A
Cult of Destruction: This is a really interesting one. the "obvious use" here is to spam oblits with minimal warpsmith, but the ritual opens some doors. Not sure the oblits actually have enough long-range weapons to support a bombardment plan with this, but it can turn your unimpressive Mutilators into murder machines with double attacks, if they ever reach a target. has potential. B+
Heldrake Terror Pack: Another Ld debuff, seeing a small theme here, it might be worth exploring had marines not been so common. the super vector strike combos fairly well with the Ld debuff, but given how little pinning weapons CSM got around, and how rare it is to want to vector a unit falling back it won't trigger very often. weakish buffs, but its a heldrake spam so who cares. B+
Helforged Warpack: don't quite get this one. hide the warpsmith to spam daemonforge? (just how many formations use these anyway? is this black legion or iron warriors?) the alpha engine is cute (making one of the engines a character with 4++ and all others gain rage if it dies) but overall I'm not too impressed. B
Terminator Annihilation Force-still missing. so can't tell how good it is.X
OVERALL-this is a grade B+ to A detachment. I doubt it will take top tables by storm, but it will give them a fight. strong LD, some LD debuffs, characters who just pile up power as the game goes on, strong assault and at times from deepstrike, flexibility and some intresting and fun picks-this has it all.
As I got a chaos army sitting on the workbench waiting to be done building/painting-I LOVE this.
The only question I have is why isn't this "leak" also leaking the rest of the book, such as the powers etc ? I like this teaser, but wouldn't you leak it all if you where going to leak.
Reavas wrote: Some of the formations are actually pretty great in the new Traitors Hate book! Im not going to spoil everything you should get the books yourselves but have a look at this!
I think this formation is great and just what warp talons needed to be pretty decent
Only problem is getting stuck in reserves for multiple turns
One of the things people keep missing with some of these is that the warpsmith tax is not small. That 110+ points could almost buy you 2 more Obliterators without the need to stay within 8" of a T4 2W infantry model that has no deep strike ability and moves 6" a turn. If you are using it to get loads of Obliterators, cool, but don't get caught up with the ability to fire 1 unit twice.
One thing I would be interested to see is a full msu lost and damned core, maybe even 2, with as many heldrake packs as possible. Use your cultists as insurance that you have something on the board until your army of 'drakes arrive. Killed cultists then come on from table edges and head straight for objectives.
Spyro_Killer wrote: Any sign of the rules for the spawn formation? It's just 1-4 units of chaos spawn so I'm not overly optimistic
It's not a formation, you can just take some random spawn units as an auxillary choice. and its 1-3 per auxiliary choice, not 1-4 (not that it matters as you can field infinite auxiliary)
Yesterday, I was tearing into this book heavily. The benefits seemed small, you need a shitton of units for each formation and I didn't really see the potential.
Today I cobbled together a list and realized this book has some neat potential. The list in question:
Black crusade detachement with Crimson slaughter supplement:
CORE: Black legion warband
Chaos lord: Bike, Powerfist + claw, Sigil
3 Chaos terminators: 3x combi-melta
5 CSM: Meltagun, Rhino
5 CSM: MoN (camping an objective in your zone? Had to cut points somewhere)
3 Bikers: 2x meltagun, MoN 5 Havocs: 4x autocannon
Auxiliary: Raptor Talon
Chaos lord: MoK, (free) jump pack, Axe of Blind fury
3x 5 raptors: MoK, Icon of Wrath
Auxiliary: Favoured of Chaos
Daemon prince: Nurgle, armour, Wings, ML2
3x 5 possessed (who get 3++, rending beast and shrouded)
1850 points, spot on. If you're not unlucky on your reserve rolls/Deepstrike, that is a LOT to deal with since most of it will be in your opponent's face by the end of turn 2. There's a good deal of Objec secured units, some of which camp in the back, while others deepstrike or move to the front. The real weakness this list has is the Deamon prince. If he dies you'll lose a lot of momentum and people are going to realize that. You're going to have to move him around carefully and pick your targets wisely. Luckily enough, you've got a lot of units to screen him with and he's fairly durable with his 2+ jink and ability to fly.
I realize not all the units are geared as much as one would like, but I think this is a "more than the sum of its parts" scenario because there's just so much threat going on. There's a bit of room to wiggle some things around as well. If you lack anti-vehicle you could give some raptors meltaguns instead of MoK and the Icon.
All in all, I think we've got a very interesting book that has more to it than you'd expect at first glance.
Nice. I'm curious about the terminator one, as I have 10 of those laying around...
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:The good thing about the Helforged Warpack is that I get to live out my dreams of being a Pokemon Trainer in the grim darkness of the 41st millenium. With 80% more corruption and 90% less cuteness!
Have they imported Contemptors and Cataphractii into the legions like they did for the CSM?
Liking the overall lists a lot and will find a lot of use for my large 30k legions. Havent done the points but I am guessing I have already run out of points bringing the things I want grrr.
The Kharn one is really nice as well. once per game in the movement phase you can call a red rain, and get to assault in the movement phase, but the enemy cant assault back. then you can assault again in the assault phase.
The only problem I have with the formations is the requirement of two squads of CSM in the Warpack. They could have easily put the cult units in there.
Still, my Death guard will probably try out out the Terminator formation and the Oblit-Formation. Btw., since you can only give the bonus to one group per Warpsmith Mutilators could come in handy to save some points.
warpsmith
unit of 3 Oblits with MoN Mutilator
Mutilator
That's about 350points for effectively two full squads of oblits in firepower and two distraction mutilators.
Formations have always been a way for GW to try and push models with bad rules that otherwise wouldn't sell. The Warpsmith has always been significantly overcosted for what he actually brings to the table and he competes for slots with MUCH better choices.
As Drasius said, the Warpsmith tax is significant. In an army where pretty much everything is already more expensive than it should be, I'm not super pumped to pay 110 points for something that's going to give me very minimal benefits in any of the formations he's in.
That being said, I'm really excited about Kharn's formation as well as the Raptor/Warp Talon one. I've been waiting for something like that for ages and I can't wait to try them out!
Yes Raptor Talon. Best part is, I don't even need to buy anything more since I've already been using the KDK formation for raptors and warp talons and my 30k Praetor has a jump pack, so I don't need the silly looking Chaos Lord with jump pack. Maybe I'll get another box of talons anyway....only downside is the disordered charge, making MoK pretty useless. A shame since Axe of Blind Fury is so great, so MoK would be needed on the Lord and then you couldn't take Nurgle or Slaanesh on your WT. Unmarked is probably the way to go since they're so expensive anyway. I can't really see myself using the Black Crusade detachment, I just don't have all of everything required for the Warband and don't care to pick it up, and I hate Cultists so the Lost and the Damned is out. Between my actual Berzerkers and 30k marines, I'll have more than enough for the Maelstrom of Gore, though. Maybe I'll go that route, or just use some of them (Raptor Talon) as allies for my KDK. Didn't get the Black Legion or Crimson Slaughter supplements, but I will absolutely be getting this one.
So there are going to be alot of armchair CSM generals coming out of the woodwork.
For those of you who are not actively playing CSM, here are some real things of note:
1. The chaos cultists formation is ok, it exists already fyi, it is going to be overshadowed by the warband that allows you to take really cheap bikes/termies with obsec. Cultists are worthless in csm armies if they do not have obsec or in KDK serve some purpose.
2. The helforged warpack is vastly improved in this, expect to see it everywhere as an aux choice. Why? By the time you fill out warband good luck filling out anything else other than the three tank formation, and I touched on cultists above. CSM vehicles are pretty dang cheap, and having the ability to get a 4++ with daemon forge on all the models every turn is pretty sick.
3. We still have not seen some of the formations so lets hold off on "THIS IS TERRIBLE". The Warband change ALONE makes CSM competitive again, I keep using this example:
Three tzeench termies with combi meltas and a boon cost 137 points. You get: Deep Strike, Ld 10, Hatred Imperials, Preferred enemy space marines, Obsec, 2+/4++, and double boon on the squad leader each turn if you wish. That is one hell of a objective taker if paired with a chaos lord or sorcerer.
I think people are missing a few angles here. Namely with the psychic powers.
Assuming we get carbon copies, first turn assaults with just about anything might be viable. Although it might not be feasible in points. If it turns out to work out, the dimensional key might be one of the best relics we have.
With the ability of first turn assaults, the talon formation becomes almost competitive. Screw warp talons, Raptors can be equiped to deal with hordes or tanks and can accurately deepstrike into melta/flamer range anywhere on the board and then assault. That's pretty darn good. Plus they might not get a charge bonus, but they would gain HoW to make up for it, which is the same as their normal attacks except at I10. So it's actually better than a normal assault with the reroll. All depends on the powers we get of course.
Same with the Hellforged warpack. Power of the machine spirit on a 4++ defiler ? Move that thing 18" forward and shoot it's entire payload into two different units. Talk about a distraction carnifex. Alternatively, port a maulerfiend 18 " forward. It has to survive a turn, but with its own 12" move before and after it can basically threaten any unit it wants on the table. And if it dies? *shrug* now the rest of the pack gets rage and has moved 12+ inch forward unmolested in the meanwhile.
I think people are also forgetting that the fist of god can use vindicator and pred squadrons. Nice for an IW theme and phase form allows those vindicators to fire through walls with ignore cover. Sure you could do that without the formation, but now you stand a better chance at repairing broken guns which is always good, but doubly so considering you need all 3 to fire an apocalyptic blast. And a 6++ might not sound like much but has been the cause for much frustration with my sisters. It's a fluff formation more than anything but you kinda have to deal with those vindicators, and let's not forget that you can make them front armour 14, IWND and HP/Repairs via a sorcerer. You could also give those squadrons outflank by giving one of them the Maelstrom raider legacy. Continuing the IW theme, you could also give it fourth quadrant rebellion for those outflanking cultists, which now give you a fearless bubblewrap and a 4++ once you get down to 1 HP. Not likely to dominate any tournaments, but this is a bloody awesome formation for IW and more siegy DG.
The drake pack is equally sweet for a Night lords theme. Between psychic powers, FW and (for NL to a lesser degree) sonic weaponry we have tons of pinning, against which space marines are not immune unlike fear. The talon formation will likely be a staple for NL lists and that happens to synergize well too. Moreso using the CS supplement for some extra leadership shenanigans if you have the points or get lucky on the warlord trait.
Fluffwise there is more reason for chaos to have catas and contemptors than imperial marines. Some of them are only a few hundred years past the Heresy. I just want them included so I can use the main detachment without needing min force org.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: It's still a possibility; the Renegade Knight doesn't have spikey bits.
Ah, didn't know that. So they just come with heretic decals then?
Still, they would have give us new rules for the cataphractii so they can take marks. I don't see that happening and I doubt they'd give us just the contemptor.
It's a big boost for Chaos, but still going to be an uphill battle against the Big Four.
Is it just me or is ObSec kinda of an odd choice for the Chaos Warband? Just doesn't feel too Chaos-y to me. And while it's a good bonus, it won't be quite as good as it is for Marines, given the lack of ATSKNF/Fearless.
Fluff wise this supplement fixes nothing. Codex CSM is still extremely bland and doesn't reflect our fluff all that well. The formations allow us to make much more fluffy lists for some legions but we still don't have any rules to reflect them. Even the Black Legion supplement does a meh job at that. You'd think the guy who made defilers a thing in the first place would have some kind of formation with them at the very least.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: It's still a possibility; the Renegade Knight doesn't have spikey bits.
Ah, didn't know that. So they just come with heretic decals then?
Still, they would have give us new rules for the cataphractii so they can take marks. I don't see that happening and I doubt they'd give us just the contemptor.
Indeed, the Renegade Knight set's only difference is that it comes with a new decal sheet. Which also makes it cost more than it's Warden counterpart.
Deschenus Maximus wrote:It's a big boost for Chaos, but still going to be an uphill battle against the Big Four.
Is it just me or is ObSec kinda of an odd choice for the Chaos Warband? Just doesn't feel too Chaos-y to me. And while it's a good bonus, it won't be quite as good as it is for Marines, given the lack of ATSKNF/Fearless.
ObSec kinda fits in a weird way; CSM are looters. However I think it should be more like the Incursion one; they come in, loot, and leave.
Yarium wrote: #3 - Trinity of Blood. No, I am not putting together a formation of Super Heavies. I do like having opponents to play against. That said, the biggest bonus here is probably Rampage, and the Aploplectic Storm will ensure Ork Boyz and Necron Warriors never trouble you again. Now, if Ork Boyz are causing you issues, you got bigger issues. I feel sad for any person who ever brings the Green Tide against this, because it'll be the most pointless game ever. Also, did GW realize how long it'll take to randomly allocate all these wounds? Seriously!
To randomly allocate a large number of wounds to the tide, get a bunch of small beads and have your opponent sprinkle them high above the table. Since they're orks, any minor paint chips just makes them better.
So it's looking like for an 1850 list that you would be working in maybe 2 auxillary formations in addition to the Warband.
- Raptor Talon looks to be an auto include...assaulting from Deepstrike is just too good to pass up.
- Any formation with a Warpsmith seems too taxed to be worthy of fielding.
- Apostle with endless cultists...Skip.
- 2-Heldrake formation that lowers leadership? YES! As if you needed another reason to take these. No tax , unlike the Khorne Daemonkin Codex.
- Formation of Vindicators with Apoc Blast special rule? Might be worth trying but the 24" range will require to work a list around these.
- Formation of Predators with Monster Hunter/Tank Hunter? Looks good! For around 420 points you can deck out 3 predators with Tri-Lascanons. However, they will be one unit so there may be some restricitons there.
- Maelstrom of Gore. Fielding Kharn and not getting him killed before landing some blows has always been a chore but this formation is worth a try if you already have a bunch of Berserkers. Cool, but probably a skip as Berserkers have seemed overpriced for what they do. Formation should have included transports (not necesasrily free) to deliver the payload. Have to see how the Red Rain special rule plays out on Battle Reports to see how good - or not good it is.
- Favoured of Chaos looks pretty good! However, like Maelstrom of Gore, the Possessed will have a similar challenge getting to their targets. The ' within 12 inches' requirement of the Prince may be a challenge so you may have to build a list around this formation.
I'm thinking the Lost & Damned formation will be seeing a lot of use, because its a very cheap buy-in with decent bonus (who doesn't like respawning units?), and most CSM players already have loads of cultists to begin with. I believe its min cost is ~300 points, which leaves a lot left over for spamming the Heldrake and Raptor formations.
I'm not too excited about the new formations. Out of all we''ve seen so far, probably the core one and spawns is the way to go. Nice chances of making your lord and/or sorc more dangerous. Obsec stuff.
People also seem to like the raptor formation. Ok, i get it. But i've played against a sm formation with charging vanguard vets. And they didn't fair too well. And they could enter 2-d turn, dropped without scatter, didn't loose attacks even on disoriented charges and got 5 ppm power weapons.
I don't understand how a Warpsmith can be considered a tax when you can get him a Spawn retinue and shovel 5 Maulerfiends at the opponents face and eventually gain Rage.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
koooaei wrote: I'm not too excited about the new formations. Out of all we''ve seen so far, probably the core one and spawns is the way to go. Nice chances of making your lord and/or sorc more dangerous. Obsec stuff.
People also seem to like the raptor formation. Ok, i get it. But i've played against a sm formation with charging vanguard vets. And they didn't fair too well. And they could enter 2-d turn, dropped without scatter, didn't loose attacks even on disoriented charges and got 5 ppm power weapons.
You also live in Casual City where Mutilators are considered a good pick. Chances are the Vanguard loadout sucks or your opponent does.
Dumb question here but maybe people can answer. Is there any reason you cant use formations from this book with KDK army list entries? Warp Talons in the KDK book are called Warp Talons in the CSM book.
koooaei wrote: I'm not too excited about the new formations. Out of all we''ve seen so far, probably the core one and spawns is the way to go. Nice chances of making your lord and/or sorc more dangerous. Obsec stuff.
People also seem to like the raptor formation. Ok, i get it. But i've played against a sm formation with charging vanguard vets. And they didn't fair too well. And they could enter 2-d turn, dropped without scatter, didn't loose attacks even on disoriented charges and got 5 ppm power weapons.
Half the formations are pretty meh, if not downright bad. I agree that the Raptor formation is really not all that.
Hope this fixes some of the CSM problems. I know it's not the cure all they so badly need, but its something. I'd love to see more CSM players at my LGS.
thekerrick wrote: Dumb question here but maybe people can answer. Is there any reason you cant use formations from this book with KDK army list entries? Warp Talons in the KDK book are called Warp Talons in the CSM book.
Does it say anywhere that its CSM Only?
I just want to use Kharn in KDK :(
you can't share because they're different factions
I'm not a fan of this new book. While it helps CSM, many of the problems with CSM are in the codex. When you look at SM tactical squads and consider chapter tactics and ATSKNF... You need so many more CSM to be as effective. Free hatred and +1LD help but they really don't go far enough. Those things for free might come close to balancing ATSKNF but SM still have chapter tactics and the benefits of their own formations beyond that.
My point is that Traitors Hate only serves to underscore how the fundamental problems of our codex means the best CSM army is the one with the fewest "Chaos Space Marines".
Tbh, I would have liked to see free marks across the board. That would have evened things out with the Loyalists (but then Nurgle shoots up to be the most OP god in the pantheon by a country mile). However considering the wulfen did little to bring the Space Wolves up to line with the rest of the SMs (Wolf Scouts and Blood Claws will know what I'm talking about), this is a problem that we'll just have to tough out until 8th edition/Age of Imperium drops.
Well, my night lord raptor cult is finally going to get some warp talons added now that they have potential. Shame that the fix was via formation, but better than nothing.
aka_mythos wrote: I'm not a fan of this new book. While it helps CSM, many of the problems with CSM are in the codex. When you look at SM tactical squads and consider chapter tactics and ATSKNF... You need so many more CSM to be as effective. Free hatred and +1LD help but they really don't go far enough. Those things for free might come close to balancing ATSKNF but SM still have chapter tactics and the benefits of their own formations beyond that.
My point is that Traitors Hate only serves to underscore how the fundamental problems of our codex means the best CSM army is the one with the fewest "Chaos Space Marines".
This is true.
But....If GW really is going to balance the codexes in 8th, then CSM will be right in the thick of it. Orks will still be left out, as it seems that the only competitive armies will have balanced codexes AND good formations. Orks as they stand now now need 2 updates to keep up.
It seems yet another band aid to fix a ten inch gash, and another stopgap to a codex I hate. Still with the forced challenges, the lack of legion specific rules, rubic or nurgle or noise or world eater terminators. Our air support's still a dragon. Cultists still have no grenade launchers or good sergeant weapon options. Everything's pointing toward that pain in the backside, ran-dumb boon table. All it really addresses are the joke psychic powers we once had. Fingers crossed they're remotely decent.
oldzoggy wrote:The only question I have is why isn't this "leak" also leaking the rest of the book, such as the powers etc ? I like this teaser, but wouldn't you leak it all if you where going to leak.
Why would GW leak the rest of the book? They want you to buy the book that is why they release the teaser "leak".
CadianGateTroll wrote:lols, even after all these bonuses from these formations, CSM is still bottom tier lol!
How so? Love when people try to say something as fact and not give explanations why. Funny there is finally some excitement for Chaos Space Marines and someone has to come in and rain on people's parade or excitement.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I just like that someone expressed their opinon about the Cultists Champion options. What do you really want *polite chortle*
Option to take acolyte leader instead of mandatory obligation
Instead of just the shotgun option (because that's what we released in dark vengeance) the option to take a combi weapon, a bolter, a power weapon, a poisoned blade of some kind.
No forced challenge because he has 30 mooks to throw at the enemy whilst he sits back and cackles.
The option to take a very expensive demo charge, perhaps represented as a suicide bomber. Fun stuff like that
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I just like that someone expressed their opinon about the Cultists Champion options. What do you really want *polite chortle*
Option to take acolyte leader instead of mandatory obligation
Instead of just the shotgun option (because that's what we released in dark vengeance) the option to take a combi weapon, a bolter, a power weapon, a poisoned blade of some kind.
No forced challenge because he has 30 mooks to throw at the enemy whilst he sits back and cackles.
The option to take a very expensive demo charge, perhaps represented as a suicide bomber. Fun stuff like that
I would like a fleshed out cultist unit. I'll happily take Lost and the Damned as something else entirely. A half baked effort piggy backing into the codex doesn't meet my standards. This is one of the many many many issues I, and others, have had with this codex since day one.
Insectum7 wrote: Reeeaallly want to know if there are bonuses for the Terminator Annihilation Force.
Handing out free hatred when the big formation already gives you hatred [Imperium] and then the free VotLW gives you hatred [Marines] That's now triple stacking of a useless rule. Still, I guess it's not 100% useless when you're fighting something outside the Imperium (but it's still hatred, and thus, worthless). Shooting at the thing as soon as you deep strike is interesting though as it means that you get to shoot before being intercepted (i guess). Free Terminator armour isn't much of a benefit when you have to buy a minimum of 9 Terminators and a character to get it.
Maybe coming in and blowing your combi plasma/melta load at some stuff and then running in the shooting phase (because you undoubtedly scattered off target due to no scatter mitigation in the CSM dex) might be ok, but I certainly don't ever recall seeing a list with 3 units of Terminators in it before this and the bonus is very Meh.
Roknar wrote: I think people are missing a few angles here. Namely with the psychic powers.
Assuming we get carbon copies, first turn assaults with just about anything might be viable. Although it might not be feasible in points. If it turns out to work out, the dimensional key might be one of the best relics we have.
With the ability of first turn assaults, the talon formation becomes almost competitive. Screw warp talons, Raptors can be equiped to deal with hordes or tanks and can accurately deepstrike into melta/flamer range anywhere on the board and then assault. That's pretty darn good. Plus they might not get a charge bonus, but they would gain HoW to make up for it, which is the same as their normal attacks except at I10. So it's actually better than a normal assault with the reroll. All depends on the powers we get of course.
Same with the Hellforged warpack. Power of the machine spirit on a 4++ defiler ? Move that thing 18" forward and shoot it's entire payload into two different units. Talk about a distraction carnifex. Alternatively, port a maulerfiend 18 " forward. It has to survive a turn, but with its own 12" move before and after it can basically threaten any unit it wants on the table. And if it dies? *shrug* now the rest of the pack gets rage and has moved 12+ inch forward unmolested in the meanwhile.
I think people are also forgetting that the fist of god can use vindicator and pred squadrons. Nice for an IW theme and phase form allows those vindicators to fire through walls with ignore cover. Sure you could do that without the formation, but now you stand a better chance at repairing broken guns which is always good, but doubly so considering you need all 3 to fire an apocalyptic blast. And a 6++ might not sound like much but has been the cause for much frustration with my sisters. It's a fluff formation more than anything but you kinda have to deal with those vindicators, and let's not forget that you can make them front armour 14, IWND and HP/Repairs via a sorcerer. You could also give those squadrons outflank by giving one of them the Maelstrom raider legacy. Continuing the IW theme, you could also give it fourth quadrant rebellion for those outflanking cultists, which now give you a fearless bubblewrap and a 4++ once you get down to 1 HP. Not likely to dominate any tournaments, but this is a bloody awesome formation for IW and more siegy DG.
The drake pack is equally sweet for a Night lords theme. Between psychic powers, FW and (for NL to a lesser degree) sonic weaponry we have tons of pinning, against which space marines are not immune unlike fear. The talon formation will likely be a staple for NL lists and that happens to synergize well too. Moreso using the CS supplement for some extra leadership shenanigans if you have the points or get lucky on the warlord trait.
Can't wait to see what powers we actually get.
Wouldn't you play arriving by deep strike via jump pack as using the jump pack in the movement phase (so no hammer of wrath or rerolls for charging in the assault phase)?
Insectum7 wrote: Reeeaallly want to know if there are bonuses for the Terminator Annihilation Force.
Handing out free hatred when the big formation already gives you hatred [Imperium] and then the free VotLW gives you hatred [Marines] That's now triple stacking of a useless rule. Still, I guess it's not 100% useless when you're fighting something outside the Imperium (but it's still hatred, and thus, worthless). Shooting at the thing as soon as you deep strike is interesting though as it means that you get to shoot before being intercepted (i guess). Free Terminator armour isn't much of a benefit when you have to buy a minimum of 9 Terminators and a character to get it.
Maybe coming in and blowing your combi plasma/melta load at some stuff and then running in the shooting phase (because you undoubtedly scattered off target due to no scatter mitigation in the CSM dex) might be ok, but I certainly don't ever recall seeing a list with 3 units of Terminators in it before this and the bonus is very Meh.
You really are glancing over the fact that after deepstrike you get to shoot TWICE that turn, not many units can claim to do that, even deathwing only get re-rolls. It certainly makes heavy flamers and reaper autocannon a little more juicy and more bang for your buck. Hatred is just a small bonus.
Insectum7 wrote: Reeeaallly want to know if there are bonuses for the Terminator Annihilation Force.
Handing out free hatred when the big formation already gives you hatred [Imperium] and then the free VotLW gives you hatred [Marines] That's now triple stacking of a useless rule. Still, I guess it's not 100% useless when you're fighting something outside the Imperium (but it's still hatred, and thus, worthless). Shooting at the thing as soon as you deep strike is interesting though as it means that you get to shoot before being intercepted (i guess). Free Terminator armour isn't much of a benefit when you have to buy a minimum of 9 Terminators and a character to get it.
Maybe coming in and blowing your combi plasma/melta load at some stuff and then running in the shooting phase (because you undoubtedly scattered off target due to no scatter mitigation in the CSM dex) might be ok, but I certainly don't ever recall seeing a list with 3 units of Terminators in it before this and the bonus is very Meh.
That's awesome, thanks!
Shooting twice the turn they come in is pretty rad, imo. I feel ya on the lack of reliable Deep Strike though.
You really are glancing over the fact that after deepstrike you get to shoot TWICE that turn, not many units can claim to do that, even deathwing only get re-rolls. It certainly makes heavy flamers and reaper autocannon a little more juicy and more bang for your buck. Hatred is just a small bonus.
I'm really not, because you can only shoot your combi's once, and then you're down to shooting gakky old bolters that nobody cares about. The heavy flamer and autocannon are rarely taken because Terminators are bad and taking more than 3 for termicide was never a good plan. As it is, trying to deep strike close enough for 2 heavy flamer shots to have any great effect will result in far, far too many mishaps for my liking and the reaper autocannon is still a bad deal at 25 points even if it fires twice the turn it comes do when I could have had another combi instead. The extra 2 termies you need to buy before you can even purchase the autocannon is usually two too many and once the autocannon is factored in, it's 16 points shy of taking a second termicide team instead. In a dex where everything is at a premium, you've got no reserve manipulation and no scatter mitigation, having 2 smaller squads is infinitely better than 1 slightly larger squad with a bad heavy weapon.
No wonder the book is called "Traitor Hate" ... so many of the formations give hatred.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Tbh, I would have liked to see free marks across the board. That would have evened things out with the Loyalists (but then Nurgle shoots up to be the most OP god in the pantheon by a country mile)...
I think free marks and/or icons would help quite a bit. Even still the rules and bonuses granted barely come close to balancing with the loyalist rules.
As far as Nurgle standing out, first I don't believe there is anything wrong with the Chaos Gods being uneven... second if they were approached in similar a way as say chapter tactics or formations there would be more opportunities to balance them.
I like marks, but I think on some level they are part of the fundamental problem with CSM. I think they are at the heart of why so many of our point costs don't make sense or reflect the capabilities of a unit. We pay a premium because we have this ability to take marks, and we pay a premium to gain that mark. Not all of our units could always take marks and the introduction of their ability to take marks was accompanied by general nerfs effectively forcing us to pay twice.
Let me pose this: Many warbands choose not to associate with a god; like the Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and a number of renegades... what do they gain from that and why isn't there something representing whatever that is? Fixing CSM by balancing the 4 god marks on some level should really be about balancing the choice of not taking a Chaos mark. Maybe there should be a reason not to take marks besides their cost?
In general I think the simple solution would be something in the vein of Khorne Daemonkin... where the division between two codices allow for the stricter divisions than an individual codex is allowed... and where different composition of god specific forces are blended in a limited way with stronger internal balance.
Good point, free icons might be a better balance than free marks... except what about units that can not take icons like mutilators (and maybe warp talons, I don't recall off hand)?
Well, chaos termies aren't too bad if you ask me. I've used them with some degree of success with combi-plazmas. Hatred upon hatred...but that's the way of getting hatred against eldar, crons, tau, etc - might come in handy won't matter in 90% games though.
Now the main bonus - free shooting on the drop. It needs some thought. Termies have cheap combi-weapons, so it's a must but what about the options we haven't used before? Like an autocannon. 4-shot tl autocannon on the first turn is not too bad. 25 pts is a stiff price to pay though. And it might be a better idea to just ignore it. Than the lord/sorc - preferably sorc - can get a brand which will likely synchronise well with combi-plazma - my favorite termie weapon as we still have no ds mitigation.
So, here how it goes. Likely 2 out of 3 squads drop in - or all 3 if you get reserve manipulation, fire plazma and brand - should be enough to force jinks on bikes or inflict some casualties. Than Sorc psy shreiks whoever he sees fit. Than you have an option to fire bolters or
Automatically Appended Next Post:
aka_mythos wrote: No wonder the book is called "Traitor Hate" ... so many of the formations give hatred.
Its called,"Traitors Hate" because knce you buy the booka dn read it and play your new army, you come to realize how weak CSM is even with decurion help. Then you throw your hands up im the sky and curse, " Why GW?! WTF?!"
I don't know why any faction would hope to be made over powered when we should be striving for balance. If anything the top 5 (including my beloved Tau) all need to be brought down to this level.
Or everything needs to be brought up. Still with 8th around the corner I doubt any of that is going to happen.
CadianGateTroll wrote: Its called,"Traitors Hate" because knce you buy the booka dn read it and play your new army, you come to realize how weak CSM is even with decurion help. Then you throw your hands up im the sky and curse, " Why GW?! WTF?!"
I will be honest. I love Chaos for the fluff, but I want to actually run the marines not just daemons or cultists or whatnot that you often see. So from my very limited perspective, I don't think these formations are BAD, but they kind of illustrate the issue in general: These formations are decent, but they exist in a world where, for whatever reason, SM/Necrons/etc. will get OP formations just because, so it makes formations like this a bunch of gak. There's no rhyme or reason in what GW puts out when you allow bad formations to exist alongside good ones and think it's perfectly reasonable that they do.
Won't lie, the Chaos Warband formation looks pretty cool and doesn't seem to be THAT bad (nowhere near on the scale of the power formations, but not garbage either. I also don't play competitively I play casual/fluffy but I don't want to always lose). I'm on the fence if I want to focus my attention on a fluffy Chaos group or Daemonkin, and it's not getting any easier to decide such a thing when I look at either because I think I could make both work, but I want to focus on one or the other so I don't just throw money away. A lot of the formations though seem to require way too much stuff though, like the auxiliary formations all seem to be pretty heavily invested and I find that to be a problem. I also wish they allowed for including the FW stuff in the list; I find it odd they keep wanting to ingrain Forgeworld into the game, but they keep not including them as valid options.
Termie formation gives us 40 pt discount on a termie lord. That's very nice. Don't go overboard with it - just mon and probably a power fist and def nades. Than a combi-plazma or brand for shooting and you're set.
I'm still thinking about brand. It might not synchronise too well with combi-plaz, but if the target is in 3+ or worse, than it's gona be wonderful.
I don't know why any faction would hope to be made over powered when we should be striving for balance. If anything the top 5 (including my beloved Tau) all need to be brought down to this level.
Nobody in here is saying "I wish this book would make us OP". The people with complaints (and they are legitimate complaints IMO) are simply lamenting the fact that so far, it looks like this new book does more to underscore how bad CSM are than it does to help make them better. It highlights all of the CSM weaknesses while giving them nothing to balance said weaknesses and in some cases almost actively rubs those problems in the players face. I'm still excited to try the Kharn and Raptor Talon detachments, but outside of that? Meh. Time will tell though. Hopefully we haven't seen the best parts yet!
IMO "weakening" all of the books to bring them down to CSM level is to make the game a lot less interesting. CSM are basically straight garbage, and pretty much have since day one of the 6th ed codex. Rather than bring everyone down to CSM level, I feel like it would be a better move to just push all the books to the highest level possible. That everyone has a fun/exciting codex but the books are all balanced against each other.
Roknar wrote: I think people are missing a few angles here. Namely with the psychic powers.
Assuming we get carbon copies, first turn assaults with just about anything might be viable. Although it might not be feasible in points. If it turns out to work out, the dimensional key might be one of the best relics we have.
With the ability of first turn assaults, the talon formation becomes almost competitive. Screw warp talons, Raptors can be equiped to deal with hordes or tanks and can accurately deepstrike into melta/flamer range anywhere on the board and then assault. That's pretty darn good. Plus they might not get a charge bonus, but they would gain HoW to make up for it, which is the same as their normal attacks except at I10. So it's actually better than a normal assault with the reroll. All depends on the powers we get of course.
Same with the Hellforged warpack. Power of the machine spirit on a 4++ defiler ? Move that thing 18" forward and shoot it's entire payload into two different units. Talk about a distraction carnifex. Alternatively, port a maulerfiend 18 " forward. It has to survive a turn, but with its own 12" move before and after it can basically threaten any unit it wants on the table. And if it dies? *shrug* now the rest of the pack gets rage and has moved 12+ inch forward unmolested in the meanwhile.
I think people are also forgetting that the fist of god can use vindicator and pred squadrons. Nice for an IW theme and phase form allows those vindicators to fire through walls with ignore cover. Sure you could do that without the formation, but now you stand a better chance at repairing broken guns which is always good, but doubly so considering you need all 3 to fire an apocalyptic blast. And a 6++ might not sound like much but has been the cause for much frustration with my sisters. It's a fluff formation more than anything but you kinda have to deal with those vindicators, and let's not forget that you can make them front armour 14, IWND and HP/Repairs via a sorcerer. You could also give those squadrons outflank by giving one of them the Maelstrom raider legacy. Continuing the IW theme, you could also give it fourth quadrant rebellion for those outflanking cultists, which now give you a fearless bubblewrap and a 4++ once you get down to 1 HP. Not likely to dominate any tournaments, but this is a bloody awesome formation for IW and more siegy DG.
The drake pack is equally sweet for a Night lords theme. Between psychic powers, FW and (for NL to a lesser degree) sonic weaponry we have tons of pinning, against which space marines are not immune unlike fear. The talon formation will likely be a staple for NL lists and that happens to synergize well too. Moreso using the CS supplement for some extra leadership shenanigans if you have the points or get lucky on the warlord trait.
Can't wait to see what powers we actually get.
Wouldn't you play arriving by deep strike via jump pack as using the jump pack in the movement phase (so no hammer of wrath or rerolls for charging in the assault phase)?
In a world where GW write s a complete ruleset that would be the case. As far as I can tell there is nothing that prevents you from using the jump pack in the assault phase after deepstriking.
Deepstrike itself doesn't care where you get the rule from and the jump pack unit type happens to have that special rule. So you can say you're not using the jump pack and then arrive by deepstrike. However little sense that makes fluff wise.
I think the shooting twice from the formation is decent but really requires bigger squads to make use of. I see 3 real ways to use it.
1.) Shooting at transports - you mix combi-melta in with your unit, come in pop the transport, then shoot the unit that disembarks with a bunch of combi-plasma. This only really works with a large squad though if you want it to be effective. Or you could say take 4 termies with combi-plasma/meta and try to pop 2 transports if they are close enough to one another
2.) In a larger unit - to shoot combi-weapons at 2 separate units.
3.) Shoot your load and run- a big issue with deepstriking is always being grouped up after landing, so if you could shoot your shots and then run to spread out, or into cover I would help.
Breng77 wrote: I think the shooting twice from the formation is decent but really requires bigger squads to make use of. I see 3 real ways to use it.
1.) Shooting at transports - you mix combi-melta in with your unit, come in pop the transport, then shoot the unit that disembarks with a bunch of combi-plasma. This only really works with a large squad though if you want it to be effective. Or you could say take 4 termies with combi-plasma/meta and try to pop 2 transports if they are close enough to one another
2.) In a larger unit - to shoot combi-weapons at 2 separate units.
3.) Shoot your load and run- a big issue with deepstriking is always being grouped up after landing, so if you could shoot your shots and then run to spread out, or into cover I would help.
Your character also has options of firing twice. That's why i'm focusing on brand or c-plaz+blight grenades
I don't know why any faction would hope to be made over powered when we should be striving for balance. If anything the top 5 (including my beloved Tau) all need to be brought down to this level.
Nobody in here is saying "I wish this book would make us OP". The people with complaints (and they are legitimate complaints IMO) are simply lamenting the fact that so far, it looks like this new book does more to underscore how bad CSM are than it does to help make them better. It highlights all of the CSM weaknesses while giving them nothing to balance said weaknesses and in some cases almost actively rubs those problems in the players face. I'm still excited to try the Kharn and Raptor Talon detachments, but outside of that? Meh. Time will tell though. Hopefully we haven't seen the best parts yet!
IMO "weakening" all of the books to bring them down to CSM level is to make the game a lot less interesting. CSM are basically straight garbage, and pretty much have since day one of the 6th ed codex. Rather than bring everyone down to CSM level, I feel like it would be a better move to just push all the books to the highest level possible. That everyone has a fun/exciting codex but the books are all balanced against each other.
If you have a codex with no weaknesses I would say its a bad codex, the whole point of having differant armies is to have vastly differant playstyles and rulesets that force you to adapt to that differing playstyle. Thats why you can call the eldar codex a 'bad' codex because it breaks the game in having no weaknesses and no particular strength or playstyle, everything is a strength for eldar. The more suppliments that can help improve CSM's strengths is greatly welcomed IMO, and hopefully we are reaching a point where we have some tools that bring it up to scratch with competativness seen in other armies.
I think the method GW is using currently, method being a slow trickle of suppliments and rules that improve armies little by little rather than game rattlingly drastic changes that often shatter the meta is probably smarter. Although it takes more time it allows more control in improving an army and prevents rapid power creep. Only time and playtesting will tell if we are anywhere near up to scratch but if not its only a matter of time.
I would like a fleshed out cultist unit. I'll happily take Lost and the Damned as something else entirely. A half baked effort piggy backing into the codex doesn't meet my standards. This is one of the many many many issues I, and others, have had with this codex since day one.
That's what Renegades and Heretics are if you want your Cultists to do anything but just die. You're wanting a unit that shouldn't be in the codex. Cultists are specifically meant to be cheap objective grabbers or to be turned into something Fearless as means of a tarpit, be it from becoming Zombies or from a formation.
You're essentirely complaining Renegades and Heretics aren't in the codex. Ally them in if you want.
Breng77 wrote: I think the shooting twice from the formation is decent but really requires bigger squads to make use of. I see 3 real ways to use it.
1.) Shooting at transports - you mix combi-melta in with your unit, come in pop the transport, then shoot the unit that disembarks with a bunch of combi-plasma. This only really works with a large squad though if you want it to be effective. Or you could say take 4 termies with combi-plasma/meta and try to pop 2 transports if they are close enough to one another
2.) In a larger unit - to shoot combi-weapons at 2 separate units.
3.) Shoot your load and run- a big issue with deepstriking is always being grouped up after landing, so if you could shoot your shots and then run to spread out, or into cover I would help.
Larger units don't really change anything in the big picture though. Not unless you take several larger units, which then becomes very expensive.
Say you take 8 half melta, half plasma. You would get the same results from taking two units of 4. On the one hand you only need to scatter once, but on the other it's difficult to deepstrike such a large unit without causing a mishap. There are terminator bases after all.
We now have three all terminator formations if for some mind boggling reason you want to start a chaos-wing, but to me this is the weakest of the bunch. If only we could use the BL terminator formation without having to pay for VoLW. It's functionally the same, but instead of having the termies fire their "scary" bolters twice you cast psychic powers at any number of units. And you're not forced to take 3 units. If you like playing the lottery and take the brand you also get a chance to make that S5.
Breng77 wrote: I think the shooting twice from the formation is decent but really requires bigger squads to make use of. I see 3 real ways to use it.
1.) Shooting at transports - you mix combi-melta in with your unit, come in pop the transport, then shoot the unit that disembarks with a bunch of combi-plasma. This only really works with a large squad though if you want it to be effective. Or you could say take 4 termies with combi-plasma/meta and try to pop 2 transports if they are close enough to one another
2.) In a larger unit - to shoot combi-weapons at 2 separate units.
3.) Shoot your load and run- a big issue with deepstriking is always being grouped up after landing, so if you could shoot your shots and then run to spread out, or into cover I would help.
Your character also has options of firing twice. That's why i'm focusing on brand or c-plaz+blight grenades
That helps but again it lends to larger units as putting a charachter in the unit makes it quite pricey.
So maybe you make one larger unit and then multiple smaller units to fill out the formation.
If you have a codex with no weaknesses I would say its a bad codex, the whole point of having differant armies is to have vastly differant playstyles and rulesets that force you to adapt to that differing playstyle. Thats why you can call the eldar codex a 'bad' codex because it breaks the game in having no weaknesses and no particular strength or playstyle, everything is a strength for eldar. The more suppliments that can help improve CSM's strengths is greatly welcomed IMO, and hopefully we are reaching a point where we have some tools that bring it up to scratch with competativness seen in other armies.
The Eldar codex has a boatload of play styles. Also, just like no one said the CSM book should be OP, no one said the book should "have no weaknesses either". You and I are essentially arguing the same point using different methods. I feel like creating codexes that have both very strong internal balance as well as string external balance is the way to go. Crank everything to 11 and nothing will be OP. That doesn't mean books won't have weaknesses or that they'll suddenly all be the same either. As a veteran of second edition where we had supplements out the wazoo (in the form of Chapter Approved, actual supplements, Dark Millennium, etc), I do NOT want to see that kind of rules sprawl return (it's simply not sustainable and creates a lot of uneeded complication when over-used). I'd prefer supplements be kept to a minimum and codexes be able to stand on their own.
I think the method GW is using currently, method being a slow trickle of suppliments and rules that improve armies little by little rather than game rattlingly drastic changes that often shatter the meta is probably smarter. Although it takes more time it allows more control in improving an army and prevents rapid power creep. Only time and playtesting will tell if we are anywhere near up to scratch but if not its only a matter of time.
They've been using the "trickle" method for a few years now. More than long enough for us to see that the strong only got stronger while everyone else stayed the same or got worse. I'm not sure it's working out like you want it to.
so, if I'm reading that Oblit/Muti formation right, I can get attacks off with power fists at inititive?
RAW, I make the first attack with one weapon, pile in, and then make the second attack in the same initiative, but I have to use a different weapon.
I was wondering this myself. That could allow some interesting strategies ...
Breng77 wrote: I think the shooting twice from the formation is decent but really requires bigger squads to make use of. I see 3 real ways to use it.
1.) Shooting at transports - you mix combi-melta in with your unit, come in pop the transport, then shoot the unit that disembarks with a bunch of combi-plasma. This only really works with a large squad though if you want it to be effective. Or you could say take 4 termies with combi-plasma/meta and try to pop 2 transports if they are close enough to one another
2.) In a larger unit - to shoot combi-weapons at 2 separate units.
3.) Shoot your load and run- a big issue with deepstriking is always being grouped up after landing, so if you could shoot your shots and then run to spread out, or into cover I would help.
Larger units don't really change anything in the big picture though. Not unless you take several larger units, which then becomes very expensive.
Say you take 8 half melta, half plasma. You would get the same results from taking two units of 4. On the one hand you only need to scatter once, but on the other it's difficult to deepstrike such a large unit without causing a mishap. There are terminator bases after all.
We now have three all terminator formations if for some mind boggling reason you want to start a chaos-wing, but to me this is the weakest of the bunch. If only we could use the BL terminator formation without having to pay for VoLW. It's functionally the same, but instead of having the termies fire (their "scary" bolters twice you cast psychic powers at any number of units. And you're not forced to take 3 units. If you like playing the lottery and take the brand you also get a chance to make that S5.
Yes you take multiple larger units to do #2, but I think that small units of 4 shooting at multiple transports or Shoot and then run are likely the better reasons to use this. It certainly isn't great, but if you want to use termies it helps a bit.
The Terminator Annihilation formation is exclusively for Plasma Termicide squads. Take four and unload 8 shots. Whatever isn't dead will likely be finished off by the Bolters or or at least take a single casualty.
The more suppliments that can help improve CSM's strengths is greatly welcomed IMO, and hopefully we are reaching a point where we have some tools that bring it up to scratch with competativness seen in other armies.
What strengths would you think those are? Because presently they don't really have any.
I would like a fleshed out cultist unit. I'll happily take Lost and the Damned as something else entirely. A half baked effort piggy backing into the codex doesn't meet my standards. This is one of the many many many issues I, and others, have had with this codex since day one.
That's what Renegades and Heretics are if you want your Cultists to do anything but just die. You're wanting a unit that shouldn't be in the codex. Cultists are specifically meant to be cheap objective grabbers or to be turned into something Fearless as means of a tarpit, be it from becoming Zombies or from a formation.
You're essentirely complaining Renegades and Heretics aren't in the codex. Ally them in if you want.
No I'm not. I'm saying the unit was inserted poorly. Lazily. It was given the minimum amount of attention and thought. This is a trend that runs through a hell of a lot of units in the codex.
koooaei wrote: Well, chaos termies aren't too bad if you ask me. I've used them with some degree of success with combi-plazmas. Hatred upon hatred...but that's the way of getting hatred against eldar, crons, tau, etc - might come in handy won't matter in 90% games though.
Now the main bonus - free shooting on the drop. It needs some thought. Termies have cheap combi-weapons, so it's a must but what about the options we haven't used before? Like an autocannon. 4-shot tl autocannon on the first turn is not too bad. 25 pts is a stiff price to pay though. And it might be a better idea to just ignore it. Than the lord/sorc - preferably sorc - can get a brand which will likely synchronise well with combi-plazma - my favorite termie weapon as we still have no ds mitigation.
So, here how it goes. Likely 2 out of 3 squads drop in - or all 3 if you get reserve manipulation, fire plazma and brand - should be enough to force jinks on bikes or inflict some casualties. Than Sorc psy shreiks whoever he sees fit. Than you have an option to fire bolters or
Automatically Appended Next Post:
aka_mythos wrote: No wonder the book is called "Traitor Hate" ... so many of the formations give hatred.
Loyalist free Metal Bawxes.
all termies including chaos are for fun games at best, which is fine if thats what games you play. But lets not pretend termies have been considered a good unit in almost a decade now.
I would like a fleshed out cultist unit. I'll happily take Lost and the Damned as something else entirely. A half baked effort piggy backing into the codex doesn't meet my standards. This is one of the many many many issues I, and others, have had with this codex since day one.
That's what Renegades and Heretics are if you want your Cultists to do anything but just die. You're wanting a unit that shouldn't be in the codex. Cultists are specifically meant to be cheap objective grabbers or to be turned into something Fearless as means of a tarpit, be it from becoming Zombies or from a formation.
You're essentirely complaining Renegades and Heretics aren't in the codex. Ally them in if you want.
No I'm not. I'm saying the unit was inserted poorly. Lazily. It was given the minimum amount of attention and thought. This is a trend that runs through a hell of a lot of units in the codex.
Little options doesn't mean lazy. It means they don't need those options. They're only Cultists. They aren't going to have a lot of options because they're just fodder. Hence why you need to get over it. If you want "Cultists but with more options" you need to ally in Renegades and Heretics.
Little options doesn't mean lazy. It means they don't need those options. They're only Cultists. They aren't going to have a lot of options because they're just fodder. Hence why you need to get over it. If you want "Cultists but with more options" you need to ally in Renegades and Heretics.
Little options doesn't mean lazy. It just does in this specific case. Yet I was super happy with the cultists in 3.5. 3 fun little themes for infiltrating nutjobs. But here in lies the crux, Slayer Fan. It's one of many lazy options. From the mostly useless artifacts, to the original psyker powers (now hopefully fixed). From the poor choices like plague zombies being tied to Typhus and not any nurgle lord, or warp talons defying logic with their build. Forced challenges tied to a table that was clearly designed to make you buy more spawn and daemon prince models, and add another layer of what people dub "ran-dumb". Zero delivery options for your horde beyond rhinos. The lack of legion rules and this obsession with making them renegades... but not renegadey enough so that they occupy a grey area between Chaos and Loyalist. Then along comes the Loyalist Codex and wallop, GW show what they can produce when they can be arsed. Yep, that's envy, jealousy, bitterness, and common sense coming from me.
So little was done right with this codex that I loathed it from the minute I read it. This ties into the thread we have now. GW has tried four times now I think to amend the abomination that was our 7th Ed Dex. Black Legion dropped a couple of nice artifacts, as did Crimson Slaughter. Daemonkin is it's own thing, but again it's just throwing the Khornate portions of Daemon and CSM together to get a result. Now we've got Traitor's Hate, which might get the psyker problem resolved, but ultimately it's just a load of formations. All formations are is a means of saying "buy in bulk and buy the crap we can't sell."
So yet again, my option to make this awful codex somewhat less awful that it was before, but still a miserable comparison to the loyalist stuff (yep, that envy again), is to buy more things. Buy a new book, new toys, and still be sub par. I'm good, thanks. Some of the stuff looks fun or okay, but ultimately, it's a crop grown from the same rotten soil: 7th Ed CSM Codex. GW isn't obliged to give me what I want, but I'll be keeping a hold of my money in the mean time. The last time I saw their profits publicised, I don't think that was their intention.
Little options doesn't mean lazy. It means they don't need those options. They're only Cultists. They aren't going to have a lot of options because they're just fodder. Hence why you need to get over it. If you want "Cultists but with more options" you need to ally in Renegades and Heretics.
Little options doesn't mean lazy. It just does in this specific case. Yet I was super happy with the cultists in 3.5. 3 fun little themes for infiltrating nutjobs. But here in lies the crux, Slayer Fan. It's one of many lazy options. From the mostly useless artifacts, to the original psyker powers (now hopefully fixed). From the poor choices like plague zombies being tied to Typhus and not any nurgle lord, or warp talons defying logic with their build. Forced challenges tied to a table that was clearly designed to make you buy more spawn and daemon prince models, and add another layer of what people dub "ran-dumb". Zero delivery options for your horde beyond rhinos. The lack of legion rules and this obsession with making them renegades... but not renegadey enough so that they occupy a grey area between Chaos and Loyalist. Then along comes the Loyalist Codex and wallop, GW show what they can produce when they can be arsed. Yep, that's envy, jealousy, bitterness, and common sense coming from me.
So little was done right with this codex that I loathed it from the minute I read it. This ties into the thread we have now. GW has tried four times now I think to amend the abomination that was our 7th Ed Dex. Black Legion dropped a couple of nice artifacts, as did Crimson Slaughter. Daemonkin is it's own thing, but again it's just throwing the Khornate portions of Daemon and CSM together to get a result. Now we've got Traitor's Hate, which might get the psyker problem resolved, but ultimately it's just a load of formations. All formations are is a means of saying "buy in bulk and buy the crap we can't sell."
So yet again, my option to make this awful codex somewhat less awful that it was before, but still a miserable comparison to the loyalist stuff (yep, that envy again), is to buy more things. Buy a new book, new toys, and still be sub par. I'm good, thanks. Some of the stuff looks fun or okay, but ultimately, it's a crop grown from the same rotten soil: 7th Ed CSM Codex. GW isn't obliged to give me what I want, but I'll be keeping a hold of my money in the mean time. The last time I saw their profits publicised, I don't think that was their intention.
I agree.
I will wait until I have the full picture, but as far as I'm concerned this is yet another 'meh' bone thrown towards CSM.
They can't be arsed to support my faction in the same way they support others, I can't be arsed to give them money for it.
The more suppliments that can help improve CSM's strengths is greatly welcomed IMO, and hopefully we are reaching a point where we have some tools that bring it up to scratch with competativness seen in other armies.
What strengths would you think those are? Because presently they don't really have any.
CSM favour agressive hard hitting plays over defensive play, and allows you to modify normal units to suit your style of play, like a swiss army knife. The marks and icons are unique to CSM and can give you speed, toughness, combat capabilities and more. This sort of demonstrates the level of customisability as we can essentially change certain stats of our units which most armies can not do to the same degree as us.
This very specific, very agressive play is hard. And does not fit well with the current edition as CSM favour CC more than their loyalist counterparts. And 7th edition heavily favours shooting. This suppliment gives us some hard hitting firepower that our opponent can't prevent, which is VERY welcome considering its difficult to play agressive when most of your opponents have such a solid defence. Formations like the raptor one and the terminator one fits nicely in with how CSM handle, and we have some better nurgle defence options with the cultist formation and typhus turning them into zombies. This are looking up, maybe not competative, but better
Little options doesn't mean lazy. It means they don't need those options. They're only Cultists. They aren't going to have a lot of options because they're just fodder. Hence why you need to get over it. If you want "Cultists but with more options" you need to ally in Renegades and Heretics.
There are four standard responses whenever a CSM player is upset about the state of their army -
"All the options you need are there. You just need to L2P!"
"You just want the OP 3.5 codex and are probably WAAC"
"At least you don't play Sisters"
And of course everyone's favorite:
"What are you talking about!? CSM are fine! You just need need these six things from Forge World and you're good to go!"
I hate the FW one with a passion. My main codex should be able to stand on it's own. IMOFW should be for super-heavies and things that add extra flavor. NOT a go to solution for when the core book GW gave me is junk. The lead on one of my favorite podcasts had an episode a few months ago where he claimed he had "Cracked the code" on CSM. This "solution" involved several hundred dollars of FW merchandise and, in fact, almost no actual Chaos MARINES. That alone speaks volumes.
Heretics and Renegades is great no doubt. That said, since GW treats the core CSM Codex as your basic generic CSM "war band", it would be nice if there was a bigger range of options. You don't need ALL the options something like Heretics and Renegades would give, but an ability to tailor cultists to a greater degree would be great.
I was hoping for Traitors Hate to give us rules for that web bundle that has a CSM Champion and a gaggle of cultists. It would have been nice to be able to take different base weapons or maybe give them squad abilities granted them from the Champion.
TL;DR,
"Just play a FW book" is not a reasonable answer to issues in a core codex.
Part of the issue I think is that they have neither rhyme nor reason in what they do. For example, Space Marines get their Gladius, which is a really good "Decurion" type formation, and the other variations of it in the Angels of Death book (basically one equivalent for every derivative chapter). Chaos gets a "Decurion" that, while it isn't bad, is nowhere near on the same power scale as the Space Marine one, for no discernible reason. Then let's say Blood Angels get some Decurion-equivalent in their upcoming "Angel's Blade" book that is on par with the other Marine formations, and way better than the Chaos one. Again, no rhyme or reason why one Codex gets a lot of neat things, and another doesn't. We didn't expect a full on revamped Codex, but a lot of the issues with the current book could have been fixed with good formation bonuses, and we really didn't even get that.
It appears, for all intents and purposes, that GW playtests (used loosely, most likely) everything in a vacuum and doesn't even bother to compare it to what else exists e.g. they will create a formation without looking at what similar formations already do, to ensure that the power level is consistent, so you end up with two formations that have similar composition for two different armies but vastly different power levels.
Again, I've stated I'm a fluffy player. I play (relatively speaking, since technically I don't play right now due to not having models) very casually and prefer to have a story-driven game instead of "show up and play" so I don't think these formations are utter garbage. The Chaos Warband itself looks pretty cool (visually) to me and should I decide to continue with standard CSM that is likely what I'm going to collect and build first. The Raptor one looks neat. The one that lets you spam Maulerfiends and such is cool because I like those models. But i won't pretend that the formations are as good as they could have been, or that they fix anything that needed to be fixed. In a vacuum they may seem to be okay, but the problem is the game doesn't take place in a vacuum. Those formations aren't nearly half as good as any of the equivalent ones that you see elsewhere, and the biggest problem is there can be no reason other than ignorance//incompetence as to WHY that's the case.
Little options doesn't mean lazy. It means they don't need those options. They're only Cultists. They aren't going to have a lot of options because they're just fodder. Hence why you need to get over it. If you want "Cultists but with more options" you need to ally in Renegades and Heretics.
There are four standard responses whenever a CSM player is upset about the state of their army -
"All the options you need are there. You just need to L2P!"
"You just want the OP 3.5 codex and are probably WAAC"
"At least you don't play Sisters"
And of course everyone's favorite:
"What are you talking about!? CSM are fine! You just need need these six things from Forge World and you're good to go!"
I hate the FW one with a passion. My main codex should be able to stand on it's own. IMOFW should be for super-heavies and things that add extra flavor. NOT a go to solution for when the core book GW gave me is junk. The lead on one of my favorite podcasts had an episode a few months ago where he claimed he had "Cracked the code" on CSM. This "solution" involved several hundred dollars of FW merchandise and, in fact, almost no actual Chaos MARINES. That alone speaks volumes.
Heretics and Renegades is great no doubt. That said, since GW treats the core CSM Codex as your basic generic CSM "war band", it would be nice if there was a bigger range of options. You don't need ALL the options something like Heretics and Renegades would give, but an ability to tailor cultists to a greater degree would be great.
I was hoping for Traitors Hate to give us rules for that web bundle that has a CSM Champion and a gaggle of cultists. It would have been nice to be able to take different base weapons or maybe give them squad abilities granted them from the Champion.
TL;DR,
"Just play a FW book" is not a reasonable answer to issues in a core codex.
You also forgot "Just play with the SM dex and pretend you're playing a Legion"
Completely agree. As a CSM player I get very tired of seeing "Chaos Space Marine" lists that have barely any actual Chaos Marines in them. Also if that's the podcast I'm thinking of, to be fair each Rapier weapons battery has like 2 Marines in them :p but interesting to note that those are still intended for 30k armies, and it's just one of those "and CSM can use it too" kinda things
But yes, Forgeworld should be for additional extras, not core things. It's bad enough that you tend to frequently see FW flyers and superheavies in regular 40k games (literally every single 40k game I've seen at my local GW has at least one giant flyer from FW on the table), it doesn't need to take the place of the normal army as well.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The Cultist one with Plague Zombies will be an absolute hard counter to Gladius lists for sure.
Which is that?
The Lost and the Damned. 4-8 units of cultists with a dark apostle. Take Typhus as your lord in the Warband and you can make all those cultists zombies.
On an unrelated note, indecisive person I am, does anyone think these formations will make CSM more fun to play than they were before? I am trying to make a final choice between CSM w/Traitor's Hate and KDK and actually stick to it (don't hold your breath ) but I'm trying to figure out which looks like it would be more fun to actually play in the game.
The more suppliments that can help improve CSM's strengths is greatly welcomed IMO, and hopefully we are reaching a point where we have some tools that bring it up to scratch with competativness seen in other armies.
What strengths would you think those are? Because presently they don't really have any.
CSM favour agressive hard hitting plays over defensive play, and allows you to modify normal units to suit your style of play, like a swiss army knife. The marks and icons are unique to CSM and can give you speed, toughness, combat capabilities and more. This sort of demonstrates the level of customisability as we can essentially change certain stats of our units which most armies can not do to the same degree as us.
This very specific, very agressive play is hard. And does not fit well with the current edition as CSM favour CC more than their loyalist counterparts. And 7th edition heavily favours shooting. This suppliment gives us some hard hitting firepower that our opponent can't prevent, which is VERY welcome considering its difficult to play agressive when most of your opponents have such a solid defence. Formations like the raptor one and the terminator one fits nicely in with how CSM handle, and we have some better nurgle defence options with the cultist formation and typhus turning them into zombies. This are looking up, maybe not competative, but better
The shooting one for the Terminators is good, you can hit something hard with the Combi part of the Bolters and then clean up whats left with the Boltguns and I appreciate what they are trying to do with the Raptors, but its a worse version of what the Loyalist Chapters get.
On an unrelated note, indecisive person I am, does anyone think these formations will make CSM more fun to play than they were before? I am trying to make a final choice between CSM w/Traitor's Hate and KDK and actually stick to it (don't hold your breath ) but I'm trying to figure out which looks like it would be more fun to actually play in the game.
The one thing I feel comfortable saying at this point is that I DO believe some of these formations WILL add to the fun factor. That's why I'm so pumped about the Khan one, as well as the Raptor Talon one. Do I think this book will help us in the more competitive environment? Going on just the leaks ... NO. Absolutely not. It won't help even a little.
That said, from a fun and more fluffy standpoint, I think it could be a blast.
It's a tough call though because I love my KDK and they happen to be both fun AND reasonably decent on the table top. Certainly not top tier, but powerful enough to be "in the game" against almost everyone. KDK is (imo) a perfect example of something that has both fluffy AND strong rules.
Little options doesn't mean lazy. It means they don't need those options. They're only Cultists. They aren't going to have a lot of options because they're just fodder. Hence why you need to get over it. If you want "Cultists but with more options" you need to ally in Renegades and Heretics.
Little options doesn't mean lazy. It just does in this specific case. Yet I was super happy with the cultists in 3.5. 3 fun little themes for infiltrating nutjobs. But here in lies the crux, Slayer Fan. It's one of many lazy options. From the mostly useless artifacts, to the original psyker powers (now hopefully fixed). From the poor choices like plague zombies being tied to Typhus and not any nurgle lord, or warp talons defying logic with their build. Forced challenges tied to a table that was clearly designed to make you buy more spawn and daemon prince models, and add another layer of what people dub "ran-dumb". Zero delivery options for your horde beyond rhinos. The lack of legion rules and this obsession with making them renegades... but not renegadey enough so that they occupy a grey area between Chaos and Loyalist. Then along comes the Loyalist Codex and wallop, GW show what they can produce when they can be arsed. Yep, that's envy, jealousy, bitterness, and common sense coming from me.
So little was done right with this codex that I loathed it from the minute I read it. This ties into the thread we have now. GW has tried four times now I think to amend the abomination that was our 7th Ed Dex. Black Legion dropped a couple of nice artifacts, as did Crimson Slaughter. Daemonkin is it's own thing, but again it's just throwing the Khornate portions of Daemon and CSM together to get a result. Now we've got Traitor's Hate, which might get the psyker problem resolved, but ultimately it's just a load of formations. All formations are is a means of saying "buy in bulk and buy the crap we can't sell."
So yet again, my option to make this awful codex somewhat less awful that it was before, but still a miserable comparison to the loyalist stuff (yep, that envy again), is to buy more things. Buy a new book, new toys, and still be sub par. I'm good, thanks. Some of the stuff looks fun or okay, but ultimately, it's a crop grown from the same rotten soil: 7th Ed CSM Codex. GW isn't obliged to give me what I want, but I'll be keeping a hold of my money in the mean time. The last time I saw their profits publicised, I don't think that was their intention.
As someone that actually uses the 6th Edition CSM codex and hates it with a passion, I'm telling you Cultists don't need more options because they're not Renegades And Heretics, and there is no reason I should have to reiterate that. They're sacrificial pawns and that's shown in two ways:
1. They will have Fearless in some manner.
2. You buy them as cheap objective grabbers or minimizing your troop tax.
Based off that there's no need for more options because that's you want them to do what another army does. If you want more flexible humans that don't hate your CSM and are evil, use the Renegades And Heretics as that's actually a pretty good list to read. If you absolutely need to Infiltrate them, you have Huron to do that.
Little options doesn't mean lazy. It means they don't need those options. They're only Cultists. They aren't going to have a lot of options because they're just fodder. Hence why you need to get over it. If you want "Cultists but with more options" you need to ally in Renegades and Heretics.
There are four standard responses whenever a CSM player is upset about the state of their army -
"All the options you need are there. You just need to L2P!"
"You just want the OP 3.5 codex and are probably WAAC"
"At least you don't play Sisters"
And of course everyone's favorite:
"What are you talking about!? CSM are fine! You just need need these six things from Forge World and you're good to go!"
I hate the FW one with a passion. My main codex should be able to stand on it's own. IMOFW should be for super-heavies and things that add extra flavor. NOT a go to solution for when the core book GW gave me is junk. The lead on one of my favorite podcasts had an episode a few months ago where he claimed he had "Cracked the code" on CSM. This "solution" involved several hundred dollars of FW merchandise and, in fact, almost no actual Chaos MARINES. That alone speaks volumes.
Heretics and Renegades is great no doubt. That said, since GW treats the core CSM Codex as your basic generic CSM "war band", it would be nice if there was a bigger range of options. You don't need ALL the options something like Heretics and Renegades would give, but an ability to tailor cultists to a greater degree would be great.
I was hoping for Traitors Hate to give us rules for that web bundle that has a CSM Champion and a gaggle of cultists. It would have been nice to be able to take different base weapons or maybe give them squad abilities granted them from the Champion.
TL;DR,
"Just play a FW book" is not a reasonable answer to issues in a core codex.
It isn't my fault you hate FW. That's your own problem not mine.
Once again, I reiterate I use the 6th edition CSM codex and hate it. However, anyone complaining about Cultists not having more options is kinda missing the point of Cultists.
No Slayer we're not. The point of that is one only has to look at the needless option of giving the cultist leader a shotgun, solely because that's what they modelled it with in the dark vengeance set. It was the sculptors/producers dictating the rules and theme, not the other way around.
I think the cultist leader is the only part of the cultist unit that deserves more options. As it is he's just there to die in challenges and there really isn't much you can do about it. Maybe the point is for him and the cultists is to die, but its pretty contrary to the expectations set by the "champion" rules. If the intent is to die purely as a sacrifice to the Chaos gods then maybe there should be something to address that.
aka_mythos wrote: I think the cultist leader is the only part of the cultist unit that deserves more options. As it is he's just there to die in challenges and there really isn't much you can do about it. Maybe the point is for him and the cultists is to die, but its pretty contrary to the expectations set by the "champion" rules. If the intent is to die purely as a sacrifice to the Chaos gods then maybe there should be something to address that.
Cultists are supposed to die anyway. Daemonkin just gives you a bonus for it.
It isn't my fault you hate FW. That's your own problem not mine.
First off, I don't hate FW. I actually REALLY like FW. I just hate the notion that, for some reason, it's totally acceptable for people to say to CSM players "STFU, you don't get it. Your book is fine. You just need FW." If ANY other faction were told that, there would be riots. I love FW as a way to get cool and unusual sculpts, add flavor, pick up the occasional super heavy, and as expansions for when I play games where people allow FW. Forge World as a stop-gap to a VERY poorly written codex? No. That is unacceptable. The number one answer to to "the CSM codex is lame" almost always seems to be "It's fine! Here's the trick ... Play Chaos but DON'T USE THEIR CODEX!" I just don't get how people don't realize how silly that is.
Once again, I reiterate I use the 6th edition CSM codex and hate it. However, anyone complaining about Cultists not having more options is kinda missing the point of Cultists.
Are we? The fluff is full of examples of cultists using things like looted alien weapons, Imperial Guard kit, and even Heavy Bolters. Some of us would like our cultists to have some those options. Like I said, I'm NOT saying that "Heretics and Renegades" needs to be duplicated word for word/entry for entry in "Traitor's Hate" or our actual codex (that would obviously be silly and redundant). I'm just saying that, being the rag-tag group of fighters that they are, and being that each Chaos army uses its cultists differently, that it might be nice to just have a few extra options for them. I'm not sure how that makes me "miss the point of cultists". Like I said, there's plenty of examples of cultists actually doing some crazy cool things. Maybe you just haven't seen those fluff examples.
I concede* (not consent) they're not supposed to be durable, Slayer-Fan, but there's better ways you can do it. Sorcerers popping them for additional warp charges, or giving one a satchel charge as a potential suicide bomber or saboteur.
They're often told in the stories as infiltrators and mobs. The idea that a unit of 20 or less could spring up in cover, or use local knowledge to booby trap terrain might be fun. As I said, cultists can have a lot of crunch. It wasn't my idea to put them into the dex but now they've been included, I'd like to see them added in a rich and fun manner. The figures are certainly beautiful enough.
The only unit that truly exists to die is a spore mine.
I mostly want sacrificial options. depending on how many you kill you get, enhanced reserve rolls for Daemonic units, deep strike scatter mitigation, bonus Warp Charge for nearby Psykers etc.
Cultist should have just stayed out of the Chaos Space Marine Codex in general, and it should be a Codex about Chaos Space Marines that encourages you to play Chaos Space Marines.
Cultist should have just been their own book (like Renegades and Heretics but not FW only) or a special thing you got access to depending on which Flavor of Chaos Space Marine you played.
Eldarain wrote: I mostly want sacrificial options. depending on how many you kill you get, enhanced reserve rolls for Daemonic units, deep strike scatter mitigation, bonus Warp Charge for nearby Psykers etc.
This. I don't necessarily want more options for them or them to be killier, but better tactical roles for them, i.e. suicide bombing, the Helcult's 3+ cover save mechanic, etc.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Cultist should have just stayed out of the Chaos Space Marine Codex in general, and it should be a Codex about Chaos Space Marines that encourages you to play Chaos Space Marines.
Cultist should have just been their own book (like Renegades and Heretics but not FW only) or a special thing you got access to depending on which Flavor of Chaos Space Marine you played.
While I get the sentiment that a chaos - "Space Marines" book should be about the Chaos Space Marines, as it is all the basic CSM units are just lacking. The presence of cultist fit the narrative that CSM are there to subjugate normal humans to the will of the dark gods. That different warbands utilize these cultists in different ways and it is that distinction that is missing from their rules. Cultists have had rules in almost every edition, not always when the codex was first released but eventually and always with the idea they were used with CSM and in each iteration they have changed quite a bit. Even though to a Chaos warlord the purpose of cultists are just to die, how they die, and what they do in dying hold value to Chaos... and thus deserve distinction.
Hence the Special thing you can unlock addendum, or just make them a Lost and the Damned Army with Chosen as Elites and Lords as HQs or something.
If they'd just focus they could make the CSM Units not Lacking, throwing in halfassed Cultists doesnt make the whole army less lacking and at present you dont lose anything of value by moving them away, except maybe a cheap troops tax.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Cultist should have just stayed out of the Chaos Space Marine Codex in general, and it should be a Codex about Chaos Space Marines that encourages you to play Chaos Space Marines.
No way. Because if you take this purist view, then that means no dinobots or LOS, and every CSM needs those herpa-derpa things...
Spoiler:
RARR!!! RARR!!!
Although I'm not totally put off by the Maulerfiend...
They should have just made "Chaos Legions" and have ALL the fun toys in one codex. But then it would be an even bigger rules nightmare than the Iron Hand's chapter tactics.
all termies including chaos are for fun games at best, which is fine if thats what games you play. But lets not pretend termies have been considered a good unit in almost a decade now.
Don't forget free ld10 and 40 pt discount on a lord or 25 on a sorc. It might not be amazing but it's pretty ok. Just don't go overboard with them. Min squads with combi-plazmas is all we need. They'll be a significant boost against enemy deathstars as they'll clear off the backlines and will be a thorn in the...side. It's still gona be around 450 pts.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Cultist should have just stayed out of the Chaos Space Marine Codex in general, and it should be a Codex about Chaos Space Marines that encourages you to play Chaos Space Marines.
No way. Because if you take this purist view, then that means no dinobots or LOS, and every CSM needs those herpa-derpa things...
Spoiler:
RARR!!! RARR!!!
Although I'm not totally put off by the Maulerfiend...
all termies including chaos are for fun games at best, which is fine if thats what games you play. But lets not pretend termies have been considered a good unit in almost a decade now.
Don't forget free ld10 and 40 pt discount on a lord or 25 on a sorc. It might not be amazing but it's pretty ok. Just don't go overboard with them. Min squads with combi-plazmas is all we need. They'll be a significant boost against enemy deathstars as they'll clear off the backlines and will be a thorn in the...side. It's still gona be around 450 pts.
I prefer 4 in a squad, but that's just me.
I am considering the benefits of the Brand though. Fun times are to be found ahead.
My list I'm thinking will be Typhus with the Lost And Damned, and auxiliary spawn and Raptors with the Terminators. Not sure how to fit that in at 1850 though just yet!
all termies including chaos are for fun games at best, which is fine if thats what games you play. But lets not pretend termies have been considered a good unit in almost a decade now.
Don't forget free ld10 and 40 pt discount on a lord or 25 on a sorc. It might not be amazing but it's pretty ok. Just don't go overboard with them. Min squads with combi-plazmas is all we need. They'll be a significant boost against enemy deathstars as they'll clear off the backlines and will be a thorn in the...side. It's still gona be around 450 pts.
I prefer 4 in a squad, but that's just me.
I am considering the benefits of the Brand though. Fun times are to be found ahead.
My list I'm thinking will be Typhus with the Lost And Damned, and auxiliary spawn and Raptors with the Terminators. Not sure how to fit that in at 1850 though just yet!
It's gona easilly fit if you go small/min squads.
Can Typhus make every cultist a zombie or only 1 squad?
all termies including chaos are for fun games at best, which is fine if thats what games you play. But lets not pretend termies have been considered a good unit in almost a decade now.
Don't forget free ld10 and 40 pt discount on a lord or 25 on a sorc. It might not be amazing but it's pretty ok. Just don't go overboard with them. Min squads with combi-plazmas is all we need. They'll be a significant boost against enemy deathstars as they'll clear off the backlines and will be a thorn in the...side. It's still gona be around 450 pts.
I prefer 4 in a squad, but that's just me.
I am considering the benefits of the Brand though. Fun times are to be found ahead.
My list I'm thinking will be Typhus with the Lost And Damned, and auxiliary spawn and Raptors with the Terminators. Not sure how to fit that in at 1850 though just yet!
It's gona easilly fit if you go small/min squads.
Can Typhus make every cultist a zombie or only 1 squad?
Well, the new stuff looks interesting, but does anyone know if there is anything in there for Noise Marines?
I have my old ones and Lucius sat upstairs somewhere and if they turn out to be actually worth it I may just crack them out again.
master of ordinance wrote: Well, the new stuff looks interesting, but does anyone know if there is anything in there for Noise Marines?
I have my old ones and Lucius sat upstairs somewhere and if they turn out to be actually worth it I may just crack them out again.
there seems to be something about cult troops but i'm afraid it's just an extra slot without benefits.
master of ordinance wrote: Well, the new stuff looks interesting, but does anyone know if there is anything in there for Noise Marines?
I have my old ones and Lucius sat upstairs somewhere and if they turn out to be actually worth it I may just crack them out again.
there seems to be something about cult troops but i'm afraid it's just an extra slot without benefits.
Bugger. Ah well, ill just stick the hedonists back on ice.
master of ordinance wrote: Well, the new stuff looks interesting, but does anyone know if there is anything in there for Noise Marines?
I have my old ones and Lucius sat upstairs somewhere and if they turn out to be actually worth it I may just crack them out again.
there seems to be something about cult troops but i'm afraid it's just an extra slot without benefits.
Bugger. Ah well, ill just stick the hedonists back on ice.
Im also wanting to use my freshly painted noise marines but unless somewhere in the book it allows you to sub normal marines I don't think any god specific marine gets any love
In the News and Rumors thread they are saying that the psychic powers are exact copies of the new loyalist ones.
This from someone who supposedly has the 'book in hand.'
Chaos Legionnaire wrote: In the News and Rumors thread they are saying that the psychic powers are exact copies of the new loyalist ones.
This from someone who supposedly has the 'book in hand.'
They are.
While the formations are average to ok the problem still lies with the codex. No amount of formations will fix the codex
I like the new book as i like to play fluffy and tournament style. Formations to me are what others have said, around a B+ overall, but not SM level formations. Now imagine if they did update the chaos codex, the right way, with these new formations, we would most likely be right there in the top tier. Not complaining as I'll take anything chaos has to offer, but we are so close just need that new dex.
I'm going to be honest here...I keep seeing people refer to how awesome and OP and amazing the 3.5 codex was everywhere and how GW needs to do that.......but all I remember from when the 3.5 codex was out was chaos players complaining how god damn awful the whole book was and how only certain parts of it were any good. Is this rose colored glasses here? Cause again all I remember is comments of how badly it sucked.
Orktavius wrote: I'm going to be honest here...I keep seeing people refer to how awesome and OP and amazing the 3.5 codex was everywhere and how GW needs to do that.......but all I remember from when the 3.5 codex was out was chaos players complaining how god damn awful the whole book was and how only certain parts of it were any good. Is this rose colored glasses here? Cause again all I remember is comments of how badly it sucked.
I don't think its rose coloured glasses I just think everyone complains about their current codex and say only parts are good, its almost like a tradition. Except eldar, everything is good in the eldar codex.
Orktavius wrote: I'm going to be honest here...I keep seeing people refer to how awesome and OP and amazing the 3.5 codex was everywhere and how GW needs to do that.......but all I remember from when the 3.5 codex was out was chaos players complaining how god damn awful the whole book was and how only certain parts of it were any good. Is this rose colored glasses here? Cause again all I remember is comments of how badly it sucked.
Back then a 4th Heavy was a big deal.
Right now, GW doesn't care, so go ahead and let people play that 3.5 book. It'd get murdered by IKTs, Decurion, Gladius, etc. ____
Reavas wrote: I don't think its rose coloured glasses I just think everyone complains about their current codex and say only parts are good, its almost like a tradition. Except eldar, everything is good in the eldar codex.
OK, now you go pilot that Storm Guardian & Howling Banshee army to the top tables! Do it!
The "issue" with 3.5 CSM I think is that while it gave a bunch of options and gave each legion a distinct flavour, many of those options were false choices, certain legions were just flat out better than others and a bunch of people complained because 3.5 actually had restrictions on which legion could take what in their army, so there were a bunch of people who played [insert any legion other than IW here] who wanted their own benefits, but also wanted more than 1 squad of Obliterators, and so there was endless complaining.
Personally I think that the restrictions were fairly accurate to the fluff and would love to see something similar return not only for CSM, but for every army. Ie. If you're running a Night Lords army, then a restriction/limit on heavy armour and Daemon units is reasonable, if you're running an Ulthwe force, then jetbikes aren't troops and you're limited in the number of wraith units you can take, if you run a Speed Freaks Klan, then you should expect to have a minimal, if any, amount of Meganobz available to you.
Yes, certain armies would always be better / worse than others, but a) ideally writing a decent codex that has some form of internal balance would sort that, and b) at the very least, it would limit the ridiculous combinations that we see now.
Unfortunately, people would complain that they can't just run anything that they want and we'd end up with what we have now again with rare, limited, experimental units making up the vast majority of armies that traditionally have no or limited access to said units, and as we all know, stopping little Timmy from buying 7 Wraithknights / Riptides / Warhounds just because he paints his models a certain colour is bad for sales.
I think I figured out what bugs me about the current design choices with Chaos, and even these new formations:
1) I dislike taking Marks in what should be an unmarked army just because it's better. I mean, in 2nd and 3rd I had that mixed bag chaos force with some CSM, a unit of Plague Marines, a unit of Berserkers, a unit of Noise Marines, etc but nowadays I hate seeing an "Iron Warriors" army and then see Mark of Nurgle everywhere; no matter how you try to justify it (e.g. bionics, Obliterator virus) to me it's basically picking an unfluffy choice because it's better; that's not an "Iron Warriors" force to me, that's a Nurgle army painted in gunmetal with hazard stripes.
2) RE: The actual formations, I don't like that some of them require taking multiple Chaos Lords (e.g. Raptor formation, which looks cool I admit) because I always liked the fluff of one Chaos Lord and subordinates (it really makes me wish they never got rid of the secondary HQ choices e.g. the Chaos Lieutenant from 3.5), and it doesn't sit well with me to have Lord Doombringer the Badass as my chaos lord, and then Lord Talonclaws over here with his Raptors because my view is there's only one "Lord" in a warband.
I don't know, I have very weird viewpoints of 40k and how armies should be built. I like to stick entirely to the theme and tone and feel of the forces and it really really bugs me to see excuses given on how to still take the "better" choices and make up something to justify taking it, instead of just not taking it.
What Drasius said. Right now FW rules are so much better for the chaos legions because they reflect the fluff of each legion. Special units aside, the rules are just better. I play Night Lords and the chaos codex rules frikkin suck and FW and Imperial marine rules reflect them and their fluff better. Now with the new rules I might be able to do a better Atramentar and Raptor cult, which I will probably try but the whole boon thing and any of the daemon and dino-bot crap is unusable and an eyesore for the most point for me.
3.5 at least gave nods to the actual legions and not just generic warbands. If anything the main chaos codex should be called Black Legion(which really is Legion Generica) and supplements should be the other legions. Hell, you could easily fit the other unaligned legions into one single supplement and it would sell like hot cakes. Really unsure why GW hasn't tapped into that market. I didn't think the original was OP in the slightest. They even felt apparently that Night Lords were kind of weak and came up with better rules for them in a white dwarf which included a table similar to the old Pathfinder disruption table, and that was cool and fluffy.
When does the new book come out BTW? Its just one book right?
Orktavius wrote: I'm going to be honest here...I keep seeing people refer to how awesome and OP and amazing the 3.5 codex was everywhere and how GW needs to do that.......but all I remember from when the 3.5 codex was out was chaos players complaining how god damn awful the whole book was and how only certain parts of it were any good. Is this rose colored glasses here? Cause again all I remember is comments of how badly it sucked.
This was the book which gave you, from memory:
1. Master crafted spikey bits, 2 rerolls to hit for 10 pts on any "character"/SGT
2. Alpha Legion had army wide infiltrators, when you could charge from infiltrate
3. Manually upgraded Chosen/Possesssed, when furious charge was +1 I +1 S and you could consolidate into other units and lock them in combat.
With power weapons/lightning claws all being effectively AP2, SM fell over at the sight of this, never mind anything else. You could sink 60~ points into a chaos SGT and he would sweep entire squads quite happily, while his meat shields (who could be 4 point cultists) took all the wounds. Chaos Lords and so forth were a class of their own.
On top of that as people said, it was the only way to bring 4 heavy support class items in the game when Lascannons were relevant.Vindicators/Basilisks for example, or pile on havocs who would take assault weapons (Pguns,MGuns) if you went IW.
Basically chaos 3.5, while being no good for CERTAIN army builds was optimised for the game as it stood then, and both shooty and assaulty could be put together in such a way that your opponent would have to be built around hard countering it. As for style, pass - Chaos was the go-to competition army, personality was optional.
To be fair, not a single legion is well represented. Not even Black Legion or word bearers. Word bearers shouldn't be dieing to perils from summoning daemons. They do that all day long every day. Sure that might involve more sacrifing cultists than summoning themselves, but where is that formation then?
And Black Legion has a supplement but it's pretty half baked. They need some kind of defiler formation and having to buy veterans of the long war doesn't mean much if everybody else can get that too. The vanilla dex isn't much of BL dex either, at least the supplement adds a coven of sorcerers and a half decent possessed formation.
None of the legions have actual character in either the dex or supplements. By that I mean that taking a lot of plague marines still is a far cry from an army actually backed by appropriate rules for a death guard warband.
Roknar wrote: To be fair, not a single legion is well represented. Not even Black Legion or word bearers. Word bearers shouldn't be dieing to perils from summoning daemons. They do that all day long every day. Sure that might involve more sacrifing cultists than summoning themselves, but where is that formation then?
And Black Legion has a supplement but it's pretty half baked. They need some kind of defiler formation and having to buy veterans of the long war doesn't mean much if everybody else can get that too. The vanilla dex isn't much of BL dex either, at least the supplement adds a coven of sorcerers and a half decent possessed formation.
None of the legions have actual character in either the dex or supplements. By that I mean that taking a lot of plague marines still is a far cry from an army actually backed by appropriate rules for a death guard warband.
You'd think the Black Legion supplement would gain a decurion that would represent the Black Legions full on unique capability to buffer out each and every marked unit as the Black Legion, while the 'generic' is one of the few factions that could reliably pull together people who want to murder each other more then most.
Heck, half the decurion formations would write themselves! Hounds of Abbadon (Khorne Marked/Berzerkers), Children of Torment (Slaanesh Marked/Noise), Sons of the Cyclops (Tzeentch Marked/Rubric Marines), The Tormented (Either Possessed Marines or CSM with strange benefits), Bringers of Decay (Nurgle Marked/Plague Marines), then you'd have room for the Cabal of Sorcerers, some Elite unit stuff, some stuff representing new Black Legion recruits...
The 3.5 dex gets a lot of reference for the mentality it represents; it's what Chaos players deserve. Trying to lump all that is Chaos into a single book, and saying that four marks will easily and effectively distinguish each legion just doesn't cut it. Certain legions should have access to certain perks, with appropriate restrictions in place to balance the benefits. Having the catch-all "just paint them like <insert legion> and viola!" is insulting if it means you could have 8 armies with the same units representing different legions and they would all play the exact same, just in different colors.
At minimum, there should be 5 chaos books (or one main black legion book, and one much larger legion compendium; or even just one big ass book with details for each individual legion...because, you know, they've never done that before for anyone else...). Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, Undivided. That is just how Chaos is, it's how it has always been, and trying to shoehorn the four gods into simple marks and basically ignoring undivided entirely is just rubbish.
At minimum, there should be 5 chaos books (or one main black legion book, and one much larger legion compendium; or even just one big ass book with details for each individual legion...because, you know, they've never done that before for anyone else...). Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, Undivided. That is just how Chaos is, it's how it has always been, and trying to shoehorn the four gods into simple marks and basically ignoring undivided entirely is just rubbish.
/endrant
I think multiple books I not unreasonable considering how many Space Marine books there are.
Aipoch wrote: At minimum, there should be 5 chaos books (or one main black legion book, and one much larger legion compendium; or even just one big ass book with details for each individual legion
No, there's no need for 5 books, that's just stupid. The 3.5 book managed to cram flavour and strong rules into 1 book that was roughly the same page count or less than the current CSM dex and definitely less page count than the current Vanilla Marines book. It's really not that hard, and I wish people would stop asking for a book for each legion or a book for each god or whatever other slowed thing they feels justifies having multiple books.
1 book is all it would take, think about the amount of times you'd be reprinting the same statline for common units (rhino, csm, cultists, Terminators, Defiler, Vindicators, Predator, Havocs, chosen, lords, Sorcerers, dark Apostles etc) if you wanted 2+ books? It'd be 50%+ the same damn book for nothing.
Drasius wrote: 1 book is all it would take, think about the amount of times you'd be reprinting the same statline for common units (rhino, csm, cultists, Terminators, Defiler, Vindicators, Predator, Havocs, chosen, lords, Sorcerers, dark Apostles etc) if you wanted 2+ books? It'd be 50%+ the same damn book for nothing.
Aipoch wrote: At minimum, there should be 5 chaos books (or one main black legion book, and one much larger legion compendium; or even just one big ass book with details for each individual legion
No, there's no need for 5 books, that's just stupid. The 3.5 book managed to cram flavour and strong rules into 1 book that was roughly the same page count or less than the current CSM dex and definitely less page count than the current Vanilla Marines book. It's really not that hard, and I wish people would stop asking for a book for each legion or a book for each god or whatever other slowed thing they feels justifies having multiple books.
1 book is all it would take, think about the amount of times you'd be reprinting the same statline for common units (rhino, csm, cultists, Terminators, Defiler, Vindicators, Predator, Havocs, chosen, lords, Sorcerers, dark Apostles etc) if you wanted 2+ books? It'd be 50%+ the same damn book for nothing.
I do think that Chaos needs to be split, similar to how you have one codex for Space Marines (Ultras and ones that follow close), Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Wolves.
You'd need:
1) Traitor Legions
2) Renegades (more recent Chapters that have turned, this would essentially be like a Space Marine army that gives up some stuff for some Chaos-influenced things)
3) Daemons
4) Lost & The Damned (Cultists/Traitor Guard)
and I'd go so far as to also add 5) Dark Mechanicus
Played against a new chaosurion with sob (sister rules on orkses - regular sister list otherwise). CSM had a warband with a lord with fist, marines in rhinos with plazma, chosen in rhinos with plazma, havoks with autocannons, bikes and a formation of possessed with a ml3 mace flying dp just to test them out.
Some results so far:
He got an infiltrate warlord trait and infiltrated 2 havok squads that wrecked an exorcist and killed another one in 2 turns - they payed off from the 1-st turn with this infiltrate-av11-side-shooting.
2 boons per turn came in handy. 1-st turn he got a spawn out of infiltrating havok's champin that, if we played it right, managed to pull off the charge 1-st turn and wrecked the immolator, than 2-d turn made a squad with 4 meltas flee, 3-d turn almost wrecked a rhino. Other boons were useless 2-d turn but 3-d turn he turned his half-dead lord into a daemon prince, charging in and killing St Celestine with s6 ID. She got up later on.
all 3 squads of possessed were pretty useless. DP took 2 wounds from contemptor bolters and had to fly away from the mid board, so they ended up as...regular crappy possessed. Once again, too slow and withot nades. We haven't finished the game yet but they might have seen combat 4-th turn...as predicted - not worth it as is. All they achieved was being ignored turn 1, than 1 squad got wiped with heavy bolter dominions, others were too slow to matter.
Obsec on everything in warband played a big role. He denied 3 VP just by being there with some chosen and rhinos. Free LD10 also made the day as he would have failed 2 vital ld checks - with csm and havoks - otherwise.
2 boons per turn with choosing 1 or 2 can be huge. It's a nice booster for a chaos lord or sorc if you invest in them. Or even a "I feel lucky" button as you can choose who gets it. By 4-th turn it was SOB 6 - CSM 4, so pretty even. He still has around 60-70% of his list and i went to around 50%, so it's all pretty even. Will mostly depend on missions, i guess.
koooaei wrote: .1-st turn he got a spawn out of infiltrating havok's champin that, if we played it right, managed to pull off the charge 1-st turn and wrecked the immolator,
You didn't, since if the unit infiltrated, it can't Charge.
koooaei wrote: .1-st turn he got a spawn out of infiltrating havok's champin that, if we played it right, managed to pull off the charge 1-st turn and wrecked the immolator,
You didn't, since if the unit infiltrated, it can't Charge.
Oddly enough, the spawn didn't infiltrate, though the model it was created from did.
koooaei wrote: .1-st turn he got a spawn out of infiltrating havok's champin that, if we played it right, managed to pull off the charge 1-st turn and wrecked the immolator,
You didn't, since if the unit infiltrated, it can't Charge.
Oddly enough, the spawn didn't infiltrate, though the model it was created from did.
koooaei wrote: .1-st turn he got a spawn out of infiltrating havok's champin that, if we played it right, managed to pull off the charge 1-st turn and wrecked the immolator,
You didn't, since if the unit infiltrated, it can't Charge.
Oddly enough, the spawn didn't infiltrate, though the model it was created from did.
Ha! An unlikely but very amusing result from the boon table.
koooaei wrote: Played against a new chaosurion with sob (sister rules on orkses - regular sister list otherwise). CSM had a warband with a lord with fist, marines in rhinos with plazma, chosen in rhinos with plazma, havoks with autocannons, bikes and a formation of possessed with a ml3 mace flying dp just to test them out.
Some results so far:
He got an infiltrate warlord trait and infiltrated 2 havok squads that wrecked an exorcist and killed another one in 2 turns - they payed off from the 1-st turn with this infiltrate-av11-side-shooting.
2 boons per turn came in handy. 1-st turn he got a spawn out of infiltrating havok's champin that, if we played it right, managed to pull off the charge 1-st turn and wrecked the immolator, than 2-d turn made a squad with 4 meltas flee, 3-d turn almost wrecked a rhino. Other boons were useless 2-d turn but 3-d turn he turned his half-dead lord into a daemon prince, charging in and killing St Celestine with s6 ID. She got up later on.
all 3 squads of possessed were pretty useless. DP took 2 wounds from contemptor bolters and had to fly away from the mid board, so they ended up as...regular crappy possessed. Once again, too slow and withot nades. We haven't finished the game yet but they might have seen combat 4-th turn...as predicted - not worth it as is. All they achieved was being ignored turn 1, than 1 squad got wiped with heavy bolter dominions, others were too slow to matter.
Obsec on everything in warband played a big role. He denied 3 VP just by being there with some chosen and rhinos. Free LD10 also made the day as he would have failed 2 vital ld checks - with csm and havoks - otherwise.
2 boons per turn with choosing 1 or 2 can be huge. It's a nice booster for a chaos lord or sorc if you invest in them. Or even a "I feel lucky" button as you can choose who gets it. By 4-th turn it was SOB 6 - CSM 4, so pretty even. He still has around 60-70% of his list and i went to around 50%, so it's all pretty even. Will mostly depend on missions, i guess.
It might have helped if they went with Terminators instead of Chosen. They're still garbage at the moment.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Battlescribe hasn't done the part with the free options for the Lords in specific formations. I'll fiddle around with things after that gets fixed.
koooaei wrote: .1-st turn he got a spawn out of infiltrating havok's champin that, if we played it right, managed to pull off the charge 1-st turn and wrecked the immolator,
You didn't, since if the unit infiltrated, it can't Charge.
Oddly enough, the spawn didn't infiltrate, though the model it was created from did.
I'd treat it the same as the ork battlewagon Formation that has Scout, but any unit/s inside doesn't. If you get into position via a Scouting unit, you count as having scouted and therefore can't Charge. But that's just me. Perhaps something for the GW Facebook Page as well as the ymdc board?
It might have helped if they went with Terminators instead of Chosen. They're still garbage at the moment.
His list was in no way optimised. For example, his Lord was just a footslogger joined to chosen. He would have been way more frightening if he had a bike and rolled around with a squad of spawns. But i must admit that chosen don't look too bad. Obsec rhinos are good. Ld10 chosen with hatred (imperium) are ok. They can deal surprising amount of damage in melee vs regular opponents as they come stck with bp, ccw and bolter => don't loose an extra attack when they swap bolters formelta or plazma. and have access to melta or plazma. Not super cheap but this free bonuses can matter. They might even be more preferable to termies if you plan on taking deepstriking auxilaries and have around 50-60 spare points compared to termies.
Also, can we use crymson slaughter for free fear to boot? Want to get draznicht.
No problem with crimson slaughter, but the new supplement doesn't have draznicht or whatever he's called. It's now a formation of 1 unit of chosen and 1 unit of possessed where either one unit gets to re-roll all to hit rolls as long as the chosen champ is alive.
On a side note, if you like loosing friends, the formation is called "The Ravagers" and the rule refers to draznicht's ravagers which don't technically exist anymore...
Roknar wrote: No problem with crimson slaughter, but the new supplement doesn't have draznicht or whatever he's called. It's now a formation of 1 unit of chosen and 1 unit of possessed where either one unit gets to re-roll all to hit rolls as long as the chosen champ is alive.
On a side note, if you like loosing friends, the formation is called "The Ravagers" and the rule refers to draznicht's ravagers which don't technically exist anymore...
Why doesn't it exist? Traitors hate does not get rid of black legion and Crimson slaughter. Heck most formations in traitors hate are bigger versions with different rules from black legion. Meaning in smaller games black legion is still a possible supplement to utilize
Draznichts ravagers don't exist in the sense that the supplement got updated and they turned him into a formation with chosen and possessed instead. It's meant to represent him but its a generic formation, whereas before he was a pseudo special character for 10 points. You can now have as many ravager formations as you can fit into your army as opposed to including draznicht for 10 points once.
Roknar wrote: No problem with crimson slaughter, but the new supplement doesn't have draznicht or whatever he's called. It's now a formation of 1 unit of chosen and 1 unit of possessed where either one unit gets to re-roll all to hit rolls as long as the chosen champ is alive.
On a side note, if you like loosing friends, the formation is called "The Ravagers" and the rule refers to draznicht's ravagers which don't technically exist anymore...
I can't believe someone thinks the formation is good enough that it'll make you loose friends.
I just finished my second game using Traitor's Hate and I must say I really like this book a lot. My first game was 2.000 points against an ork army with an imperial guard 'looted' tank squadron as allies. Neither list was really optimized and I brought:
- Warband with Ahriman, havocs, melta termis and plasma chosen.
- Mutilator formation with 3 single mutilators
- Spawn
- Cabal with 3 sorcerers
The new psychic powers are dope as feth. I absolutely demolished nearly every vehicle on the table because Ahriman and 1 sorcerer had the scrap code witchfire power. We weren't entirely sure how the power affected flyers but ruled that it did affect them as normal (The new FAQ draft says that you don't need to roll to hit on witchfires that don't have a profile and we found no indication that this wouldn't apply to flyers).
There was a big Warbiker unit which collided with my biker/Khorne juggerlord/Sorcerer unit and I have to say I kind of lucked out there because my lord barely survived and got healed by the sorcerer for 3 wounds the turn after.
I lost that game but it was largely due to the fact that my Mutilators were useless (as they tend to be) and my opponents had a bit more luck drawing objective cards.
My second game was 1350 points and I brought a similar army. I dropped the mutilator formation, Ahriman and the plasma chosen along with some upgrades. My opponent brought a mix of IG and Tau.
Again, Heretech powers proved themselves invaluable at dealing with vehicles. I rolled over his army and won hard.
The biggest surpise however, is that this book completely fixes one of my biggest bugbears in the Chaos codex, the Chaos boon table. During both games it far made up for its random nature and it has turned from my worst enemy into my best friend. If you tank all of those boons into one character you're bound to get useful things (and it makes the re-roll boon warlord trait really powerful) and you can discard spawnhood and Dark apothesis.
I expected it to help but I didn't expect that that they would nail it in terms of usefulness.
I played 2k this weekend as well, and spawned 2 daemon princes, on top of the one I already had on the table. They then proceeded to run around wrecking gak in CC. It was pretty good. I have to say you are corrct about the boon table. Rolling twice on every turn, on top of killing gak is pretty awesome. Just gotta remember to apply the boons at the time they are needed. Forgot about my toughness to my Warpsmith, since my other 2 HQs became Daemon princes, and then he got Insta-killed, when he should not have. Over all though it was way more fun than normal.
DaPino wrote: We weren't entirely sure how the power affected flyers but ruled that it did affect them as normal (The new FAQ draft says that you don't need to roll to hit on witchfires that don't have a profile and we found no indication that this wouldn't apply to flyers).
You can't use powers that don't roll to hit as snapshots and you can only hit zooming flyers with snapshots. The only exception is nova powers iirc.
Good games all in all! I've found that muties can be used to some effect if you either build a list around them or are lucky with deepstrikes. Otherwise, i'd say go with oblis or termies if you want some awesome termie-like models.
Aipoch wrote: At minimum, there should be 5 chaos books (or one main black legion book, and one much larger legion compendium; or even just one big ass book with details for each individual legion
No, there's no need for 5 books, that's just stupid. The 3.5 book managed to cram flavour and strong rules into 1 book that was roughly the same page count or less than the current CSM dex and definitely less page count than the current Vanilla Marines book. It's really not that hard, and I wish people would stop asking for a book for each legion or a book for each god or whatever other slowed thing they feels justifies having multiple books.
1 book is all it would take, think about the amount of times you'd be reprinting the same statline for common units (rhino, csm, cultists, Terminators, Defiler, Vindicators, Predator, Havocs, chosen, lords, Sorcerers, dark Apostles etc) if you wanted 2+ books? It'd be 50%+ the same damn book for nothing.
It did cram quite a bit into one book. However, that isn't to say you couldn't cram just as much 5 times over. Think of it this way, your undivided legion book would house your Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, and secondary/renegade legions that are appropriate (I.E, your Crimson Slaughter and such). Then you have your Emperors Children, who can bring enough uniqueness to every model (vehicles included) that there would not need to be a reprint, of any stat line. Renegades dedicated to Slaanesh go here too, along with Daemons of Slaanesh. Same holds true for Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch. Every single God Legion has the depth required to easily cram an entire book with unique units, formations, fluff, and crunch.
Why 5 books? The mentality it represents. I have no interest, at all, in Khorne units or models. None. It might be more efficient to place everything into one book, but to me some of those pages will always be a waste. I'd rather buy a book that I'm 90-100% into than one which had to cut out or leave out some things I love to include some things I just really don't. I don't think I'm alone in that mentality either.
As far as the idea of 5 books being stupid, I don't see how that even makes sense, considering you currently have nearly a dozen different ways (and books) to show how to field the loyalist scum. Space Marines (which gets you Ultramarins, Black Templars, Imperial Fists, White Scars, Crimson Fists, Salamanders, and Raven Guard), Blood Angles, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights. There's five full books, right there, all of them just a different flavor of Space Marine, and we haven't even included any supplements. CSM could, and should, be treated the same in 40k.
DaPino wrote: We weren't entirely sure how the power affected flyers but ruled that it did affect them as normal (The new FAQ draft says that you don't need to roll to hit on witchfires that don't have a profile and we found no indication that this wouldn't apply to flyers).
You can't use powers that don't roll to hit as snapshots and you can only hit zooming flyers with snapshots. The only exception is nova powers iirc.
Good games all in all! I've found that muties can be used to some effect if you either build a list around them or are lucky with deepstrikes. Otherwise, i'd say go with oblis or termies if you want some awesome termie-like models.
Fair enough, I only managed 2 glancing hits on a flyer that didn't die anyway so no harm done. :p
Oh I see some great (fun) potential in Mutilators, just not when they're solo units. I've got a Dreadclaw and it's just screaming turn 1 Dimensional key assault to me if I can get the power that lets me swap a unit out (and if I bring 3 sorcerer's spread over 2 units I'd say I've got a fair chance at getting it). Come forth the mutilators with perfect deepstrike!
