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Insectum7 wrote: Reeeaallly want to know if there are bonuses for the Terminator Annihilation Force.
Handing out free hatred when the big formation already gives you hatred [Imperium] and then the free VotLW gives you hatred [Marines] That's now triple stacking of a useless rule. Still, I guess it's not 100% useless when you're fighting something outside the Imperium (but it's still hatred, and thus, worthless). Shooting at the thing as soon as you deep strike is interesting though as it means that you get to shoot before being intercepted (i guess). Free Terminator armour isn't much of a benefit when you have to buy a minimum of 9 Terminators and a character to get it.
Maybe coming in and blowing your combi plasma/melta load at some stuff and then running in the shooting phase (because you undoubtedly scattered off target due to no scatter mitigation in the CSM dex) might be ok, but I certainly don't ever recall seeing a list with 3 units of Terminators in it before this and the bonus is very Meh.
You really are glancing over the fact that after deepstrike you get to shoot TWICE that turn, not many units can claim to do that, even deathwing only get re-rolls. It certainly makes heavy flamers and reaper autocannon a little more juicy and more bang for your buck. Hatred is just a small bonus.
Insectum7 wrote: Reeeaallly want to know if there are bonuses for the Terminator Annihilation Force.
Handing out free hatred when the big formation already gives you hatred [Imperium] and then the free VotLW gives you hatred [Marines] That's now triple stacking of a useless rule. Still, I guess it's not 100% useless when you're fighting something outside the Imperium (but it's still hatred, and thus, worthless). Shooting at the thing as soon as you deep strike is interesting though as it means that you get to shoot before being intercepted (i guess). Free Terminator armour isn't much of a benefit when you have to buy a minimum of 9 Terminators and a character to get it.
Maybe coming in and blowing your combi plasma/melta load at some stuff and then running in the shooting phase (because you undoubtedly scattered off target due to no scatter mitigation in the CSM dex) might be ok, but I certainly don't ever recall seeing a list with 3 units of Terminators in it before this and the bonus is very Meh.
That's awesome, thanks!
Shooting twice the turn they come in is pretty rad, imo. I feel ya on the lack of reliable Deep Strike though.
You really are glancing over the fact that after deepstrike you get to shoot TWICE that turn, not many units can claim to do that, even deathwing only get re-rolls. It certainly makes heavy flamers and reaper autocannon a little more juicy and more bang for your buck. Hatred is just a small bonus.
I'm really not, because you can only shoot your combi's once, and then you're down to shooting gakky old bolters that nobody cares about. The heavy flamer and autocannon are rarely taken because Terminators are bad and taking more than 3 for termicide was never a good plan. As it is, trying to deep strike close enough for 2 heavy flamer shots to have any great effect will result in far, far too many mishaps for my liking and the reaper autocannon is still a bad deal at 25 points even if it fires twice the turn it comes do when I could have had another combi instead. The extra 2 termies you need to buy before you can even purchase the autocannon is usually two too many and once the autocannon is factored in, it's 16 points shy of taking a second termicide team instead. In a dex where everything is at a premium, you've got no reserve manipulation and no scatter mitigation, having 2 smaller squads is infinitely better than 1 slightly larger squad with a bad heavy weapon.
Peregrine wrote: What, you don't like rolling dice to see how many dice you roll? Why are you such an anti-dice bigot?
No wonder the book is called "Traitor Hate" ... so many of the formations give hatred.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Tbh, I would have liked to see free marks across the board. That would have evened things out with the Loyalists (but then Nurgle shoots up to be the most OP god in the pantheon by a country mile)...
I think free marks and/or icons would help quite a bit. Even still the rules and bonuses granted barely come close to balancing with the loyalist rules.
As far as Nurgle standing out, first I don't believe there is anything wrong with the Chaos Gods being uneven... second if they were approached in similar a way as say chapter tactics or formations there would be more opportunities to balance them.
I like marks, but I think on some level they are part of the fundamental problem with CSM. I think they are at the heart of why so many of our point costs don't make sense or reflect the capabilities of a unit. We pay a premium because we have this ability to take marks, and we pay a premium to gain that mark. Not all of our units could always take marks and the introduction of their ability to take marks was accompanied by general nerfs effectively forcing us to pay twice.
Let me pose this: Many warbands choose not to associate with a god; like the Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and a number of renegades... what do they gain from that and why isn't there something representing whatever that is? Fixing CSM by balancing the 4 god marks on some level should really be about balancing the choice of not taking a Chaos mark. Maybe there should be a reason not to take marks besides their cost?
In general I think the simple solution would be something in the vein of Khorne Daemonkin... where the division between two codices allow for the stricter divisions than an individual codex is allowed... and where different composition of god specific forces are blended in a limited way with stronger internal balance.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/07 07:26:33
Good point, free icons might be a better balance than free marks... except what about units that can not take icons like mutilators (and maybe warp talons, I don't recall off hand)?
Well, chaos termies aren't too bad if you ask me. I've used them with some degree of success with combi-plazmas. Hatred upon hatred...but that's the way of getting hatred against eldar, crons, tau, etc - might come in handy won't matter in 90% games though.
Now the main bonus - free shooting on the drop. It needs some thought. Termies have cheap combi-weapons, so it's a must but what about the options we haven't used before? Like an autocannon. 4-shot tl autocannon on the first turn is not too bad. 25 pts is a stiff price to pay though. And it might be a better idea to just ignore it. Than the lord/sorc - preferably sorc - can get a brand which will likely synchronise well with combi-plazma - my favorite termie weapon as we still have no ds mitigation.
So, here how it goes. Likely 2 out of 3 squads drop in - or all 3 if you get reserve manipulation, fire plazma and brand - should be enough to force jinks on bikes or inflict some casualties. Than Sorc psy shreiks whoever he sees fit. Than you have an option to fire bolters or
Automatically Appended Next Post:
aka_mythos wrote: No wonder the book is called "Traitor Hate" ... so many of the formations give hatred.
Loyalist free Metal Bawxes.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/09/07 07:51:04
Its called,"Traitors Hate" because knce you buy the booka dn read it and play your new army, you come to realize how weak CSM is even with decurion help. Then you throw your hands up im the sky and curse, " Why GW?! WTF?!"
In the Grimdark future of DerpHammer40k, there are only dank memes!
I don't know why any faction would hope to be made over powered when we should be striving for balance. If anything the top 5 (including my beloved Tau) all need to be brought down to this level.
Or everything needs to be brought up. Still with 8th around the corner I doubt any of that is going to happen.
CadianGateTroll wrote: Its called,"Traitors Hate" because knce you buy the booka dn read it and play your new army, you come to realize how weak CSM is even with decurion help. Then you throw your hands up im the sky and curse, " Why GW?! WTF?!"
Play against Blood Angels or Orks
If you wish to grow wise, learn why brothers betray brothers.
I will be honest. I love Chaos for the fluff, but I want to actually run the marines not just daemons or cultists or whatnot that you often see. So from my very limited perspective, I don't think these formations are BAD, but they kind of illustrate the issue in general: These formations are decent, but they exist in a world where, for whatever reason, SM/Necrons/etc. will get OP formations just because, so it makes formations like this a bunch of gak. There's no rhyme or reason in what GW puts out when you allow bad formations to exist alongside good ones and think it's perfectly reasonable that they do.
Won't lie, the Chaos Warband formation looks pretty cool and doesn't seem to be THAT bad (nowhere near on the scale of the power formations, but not garbage either. I also don't play competitively I play casual/fluffy but I don't want to always lose). I'm on the fence if I want to focus my attention on a fluffy Chaos group or Daemonkin, and it's not getting any easier to decide such a thing when I look at either because I think I could make both work, but I want to focus on one or the other so I don't just throw money away. A lot of the formations though seem to require way too much stuff though, like the auxiliary formations all seem to be pretty heavily invested and I find that to be a problem. I also wish they allowed for including the FW stuff in the list; I find it odd they keep wanting to ingrain Forgeworld into the game, but they keep not including them as valid options.
Termie formation gives us 40 pt discount on a termie lord. That's very nice. Don't go overboard with it - just mon and probably a power fist and def nades. Than a combi-plazma or brand for shooting and you're set.
I'm still thinking about brand. It might not synchronise too well with combi-plaz, but if the target is in 3+ or worse, than it's gona be wonderful.
I don't know why any faction would hope to be made over powered when we should be striving for balance. If anything the top 5 (including my beloved Tau) all need to be brought down to this level.
Nobody in here is saying "I wish this book would make us OP". The people with complaints (and they are legitimate complaints IMO) are simply lamenting the fact that so far, it looks like this new book does more to underscore how bad CSM are than it does to help make them better. It highlights all of the CSM weaknesses while giving them nothing to balance said weaknesses and in some cases almost actively rubs those problems in the players face. I'm still excited to try the Kharn and Raptor Talon detachments, but outside of that? Meh. Time will tell though. Hopefully we haven't seen the best parts yet!
IMO "weakening" all of the books to bring them down to CSM level is to make the game a lot less interesting. CSM are basically straight garbage, and pretty much have since day one of the 6th ed codex. Rather than bring everyone down to CSM level, I feel like it would be a better move to just push all the books to the highest level possible. That everyone has a fun/exciting codex but the books are all balanced against each other.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Roknar wrote: I think people are missing a few angles here. Namely with the psychic powers.
Assuming we get carbon copies, first turn assaults with just about anything might be viable. Although it might not be feasible in points. If it turns out to work out, the dimensional key might be one of the best relics we have.
With the ability of first turn assaults, the talon formation becomes almost competitive. Screw warp talons, Raptors can be equiped to deal with hordes or tanks and can accurately deepstrike into melta/flamer range anywhere on the board and then assault. That's pretty darn good. Plus they might not get a charge bonus, but they would gain HoW to make up for it, which is the same as their normal attacks except at I10. So it's actually better than a normal assault with the reroll. All depends on the powers we get of course.
Same with the Hellforged warpack. Power of the machine spirit on a 4++ defiler ? Move that thing 18" forward and shoot it's entire payload into two different units. Talk about a distraction carnifex. Alternatively, port a maulerfiend 18 " forward. It has to survive a turn, but with its own 12" move before and after it can basically threaten any unit it wants on the table. And if it dies? *shrug* now the rest of the pack gets rage and has moved 12+ inch forward unmolested in the meanwhile.
I think people are also forgetting that the fist of god can use vindicator and pred squadrons. Nice for an IW theme and phase form allows those vindicators to fire through walls with ignore cover. Sure you could do that without the formation, but now you stand a better chance at repairing broken guns which is always good, but doubly so considering you need all 3 to fire an apocalyptic blast. And a 6++ might not sound like much but has been the cause for much frustration with my sisters. It's a fluff formation more than anything but you kinda have to deal with those vindicators, and let's not forget that you can make them front armour 14, IWND and HP/Repairs via a sorcerer. You could also give those squadrons outflank by giving one of them the Maelstrom raider legacy. Continuing the IW theme, you could also give it fourth quadrant rebellion for those outflanking cultists, which now give you a fearless bubblewrap and a 4++ once you get down to 1 HP. Not likely to dominate any tournaments, but this is a bloody awesome formation for IW and more siegy DG.
The drake pack is equally sweet for a Night lords theme. Between psychic powers, FW and (for NL to a lesser degree) sonic weaponry we have tons of pinning, against which space marines are not immune unlike fear. The talon formation will likely be a staple for NL lists and that happens to synergize well too. Moreso using the CS supplement for some extra leadership shenanigans if you have the points or get lucky on the warlord trait.
Can't wait to see what powers we actually get.
Wouldn't you play arriving by deep strike via jump pack as using the jump pack in the movement phase (so no hammer of wrath or rerolls for charging in the assault phase)?
In a world where GW write s a complete ruleset that would be the case. As far as I can tell there is nothing that prevents you from using the jump pack in the assault phase after deepstriking.
Deepstrike itself doesn't care where you get the rule from and the jump pack unit type happens to have that special rule. So you can say you're not using the jump pack and then arrive by deepstrike. However little sense that makes fluff wise.
I think the shooting twice from the formation is decent but really requires bigger squads to make use of. I see 3 real ways to use it.
1.) Shooting at transports - you mix combi-melta in with your unit, come in pop the transport, then shoot the unit that disembarks with a bunch of combi-plasma. This only really works with a large squad though if you want it to be effective. Or you could say take 4 termies with combi-plasma/meta and try to pop 2 transports if they are close enough to one another
2.) In a larger unit - to shoot combi-weapons at 2 separate units.
3.) Shoot your load and run- a big issue with deepstriking is always being grouped up after landing, so if you could shoot your shots and then run to spread out, or into cover I would help.
Breng77 wrote: I think the shooting twice from the formation is decent but really requires bigger squads to make use of. I see 3 real ways to use it.
1.) Shooting at transports - you mix combi-melta in with your unit, come in pop the transport, then shoot the unit that disembarks with a bunch of combi-plasma. This only really works with a large squad though if you want it to be effective. Or you could say take 4 termies with combi-plasma/meta and try to pop 2 transports if they are close enough to one another
2.) In a larger unit - to shoot combi-weapons at 2 separate units.
3.) Shoot your load and run- a big issue with deepstriking is always being grouped up after landing, so if you could shoot your shots and then run to spread out, or into cover I would help.
Your character also has options of firing twice. That's why i'm focusing on brand or c-plaz+blight grenades
I don't know why any faction would hope to be made over powered when we should be striving for balance. If anything the top 5 (including my beloved Tau) all need to be brought down to this level.
Nobody in here is saying "I wish this book would make us OP". The people with complaints (and they are legitimate complaints IMO) are simply lamenting the fact that so far, it looks like this new book does more to underscore how bad CSM are than it does to help make them better. It highlights all of the CSM weaknesses while giving them nothing to balance said weaknesses and in some cases almost actively rubs those problems in the players face. I'm still excited to try the Kharn and Raptor Talon detachments, but outside of that? Meh. Time will tell though. Hopefully we haven't seen the best parts yet!
IMO "weakening" all of the books to bring them down to CSM level is to make the game a lot less interesting. CSM are basically straight garbage, and pretty much have since day one of the 6th ed codex. Rather than bring everyone down to CSM level, I feel like it would be a better move to just push all the books to the highest level possible. That everyone has a fun/exciting codex but the books are all balanced against each other.
If you have a codex with no weaknesses I would say its a bad codex, the whole point of having differant armies is to have vastly differant playstyles and rulesets that force you to adapt to that differing playstyle. Thats why you can call the eldar codex a 'bad' codex because it breaks the game in having no weaknesses and no particular strength or playstyle, everything is a strength for eldar. The more suppliments that can help improve CSM's strengths is greatly welcomed IMO, and hopefully we are reaching a point where we have some tools that bring it up to scratch with competativness seen in other armies.
I think the method GW is using currently, method being a slow trickle of suppliments and rules that improve armies little by little rather than game rattlingly drastic changes that often shatter the meta is probably smarter. Although it takes more time it allows more control in improving an army and prevents rapid power creep. Only time and playtesting will tell if we are anywhere near up to scratch but if not its only a matter of time.
I would like a fleshed out cultist unit. I'll happily take Lost and the Damned as something else entirely. A half baked effort piggy backing into the codex doesn't meet my standards. This is one of the many many many issues I, and others, have had with this codex since day one.
That's what Renegades and Heretics are if you want your Cultists to do anything but just die. You're wanting a unit that shouldn't be in the codex. Cultists are specifically meant to be cheap objective grabbers or to be turned into something Fearless as means of a tarpit, be it from becoming Zombies or from a formation.
You're essentirely complaining Renegades and Heretics aren't in the codex. Ally them in if you want.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Breng77 wrote: I think the shooting twice from the formation is decent but really requires bigger squads to make use of. I see 3 real ways to use it.
1.) Shooting at transports - you mix combi-melta in with your unit, come in pop the transport, then shoot the unit that disembarks with a bunch of combi-plasma. This only really works with a large squad though if you want it to be effective. Or you could say take 4 termies with combi-plasma/meta and try to pop 2 transports if they are close enough to one another
2.) In a larger unit - to shoot combi-weapons at 2 separate units.
3.) Shoot your load and run- a big issue with deepstriking is always being grouped up after landing, so if you could shoot your shots and then run to spread out, or into cover I would help.
Larger units don't really change anything in the big picture though. Not unless you take several larger units, which then becomes very expensive.
Say you take 8 half melta, half plasma. You would get the same results from taking two units of 4. On the one hand you only need to scatter once, but on the other it's difficult to deepstrike such a large unit without causing a mishap. There are terminator bases after all.
We now have three all terminator formations if for some mind boggling reason you want to start a chaos-wing, but to me this is the weakest of the bunch. If only we could use the BL terminator formation without having to pay for VoLW. It's functionally the same, but instead of having the termies fire their "scary" bolters twice you cast psychic powers at any number of units. And you're not forced to take 3 units. If you like playing the lottery and take the brand you also get a chance to make that S5.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/09/07 14:28:52
Breng77 wrote: I think the shooting twice from the formation is decent but really requires bigger squads to make use of. I see 3 real ways to use it.
1.) Shooting at transports - you mix combi-melta in with your unit, come in pop the transport, then shoot the unit that disembarks with a bunch of combi-plasma. This only really works with a large squad though if you want it to be effective. Or you could say take 4 termies with combi-plasma/meta and try to pop 2 transports if they are close enough to one another
2.) In a larger unit - to shoot combi-weapons at 2 separate units.
3.) Shoot your load and run- a big issue with deepstriking is always being grouped up after landing, so if you could shoot your shots and then run to spread out, or into cover I would help.
Your character also has options of firing twice. That's why i'm focusing on brand or c-plaz+blight grenades
That helps but again it lends to larger units as putting a charachter in the unit makes it quite pricey.
So maybe you make one larger unit and then multiple smaller units to fill out the formation.
If you have a codex with no weaknesses I would say its a bad codex, the whole point of having differant armies is to have vastly differant playstyles and rulesets that force you to adapt to that differing playstyle. Thats why you can call the eldar codex a 'bad' codex because it breaks the game in having no weaknesses and no particular strength or playstyle, everything is a strength for eldar. The more suppliments that can help improve CSM's strengths is greatly welcomed IMO, and hopefully we are reaching a point where we have some tools that bring it up to scratch with competativness seen in other armies.
The Eldar codex has a boatload of play styles. Also, just like no one said the CSM book should be OP, no one said the book should "have no weaknesses either". You and I are essentially arguing the same point using different methods. I feel like creating codexes that have both very strong internal balance as well as string external balance is the way to go. Crank everything to 11 and nothing will be OP. That doesn't mean books won't have weaknesses or that they'll suddenly all be the same either. As a veteran of second edition where we had supplements out the wazoo (in the form of Chapter Approved, actual supplements, Dark Millennium, etc), I do NOT want to see that kind of rules sprawl return (it's simply not sustainable and creates a lot of uneeded complication when over-used). I'd prefer supplements be kept to a minimum and codexes be able to stand on their own.
I think the method GW is using currently, method being a slow trickle of suppliments and rules that improve armies little by little rather than game rattlingly drastic changes that often shatter the meta is probably smarter. Although it takes more time it allows more control in improving an army and prevents rapid power creep. Only time and playtesting will tell if we are anywhere near up to scratch but if not its only a matter of time.
They've been using the "trickle" method for a few years now. More than long enough for us to see that the strong only got stronger while everyone else stayed the same or got worse. I'm not sure it's working out like you want it to.
so, if I'm reading that Oblit/Muti formation right, I can get attacks off with power fists at inititive?
RAW, I make the first attack with one weapon, pile in, and then make the second attack in the same initiative, but I have to use a different weapon.
I was wondering this myself. That could allow some interesting strategies ...
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Breng77 wrote: I think the shooting twice from the formation is decent but really requires bigger squads to make use of. I see 3 real ways to use it.
1.) Shooting at transports - you mix combi-melta in with your unit, come in pop the transport, then shoot the unit that disembarks with a bunch of combi-plasma. This only really works with a large squad though if you want it to be effective. Or you could say take 4 termies with combi-plasma/meta and try to pop 2 transports if they are close enough to one another
2.) In a larger unit - to shoot combi-weapons at 2 separate units.
3.) Shoot your load and run- a big issue with deepstriking is always being grouped up after landing, so if you could shoot your shots and then run to spread out, or into cover I would help.
Larger units don't really change anything in the big picture though. Not unless you take several larger units, which then becomes very expensive.
Say you take 8 half melta, half plasma. You would get the same results from taking two units of 4. On the one hand you only need to scatter once, but on the other it's difficult to deepstrike such a large unit without causing a mishap. There are terminator bases after all.
We now have three all terminator formations if for some mind boggling reason you want to start a chaos-wing, but to me this is the weakest of the bunch. If only we could use the BL terminator formation without having to pay for VoLW. It's functionally the same, but instead of having the termies fire (their "scary" bolters twice you cast psychic powers at any number of units. And you're not forced to take 3 units. If you like playing the lottery and take the brand you also get a chance to make that S5.
Yes you take multiple larger units to do #2, but I think that small units of 4 shooting at multiple transports or Shoot and then run are likely the better reasons to use this. It certainly isn't great, but if you want to use termies it helps a bit.
The Terminator Annihilation formation is exclusively for Plasma Termicide squads. Take four and unload 8 shots. Whatever isn't dead will likely be finished off by the Bolters or or at least take a single casualty.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
The more suppliments that can help improve CSM's strengths is greatly welcomed IMO, and hopefully we are reaching a point where we have some tools that bring it up to scratch with competativness seen in other armies.
What strengths would you think those are? Because presently they don't really have any.
I would like a fleshed out cultist unit. I'll happily take Lost and the Damned as something else entirely. A half baked effort piggy backing into the codex doesn't meet my standards. This is one of the many many many issues I, and others, have had with this codex since day one.
That's what Renegades and Heretics are if you want your Cultists to do anything but just die. You're wanting a unit that shouldn't be in the codex. Cultists are specifically meant to be cheap objective grabbers or to be turned into something Fearless as means of a tarpit, be it from becoming Zombies or from a formation.
You're essentirely complaining Renegades and Heretics aren't in the codex. Ally them in if you want.
No I'm not. I'm saying the unit was inserted poorly. Lazily. It was given the minimum amount of attention and thought. This is a trend that runs through a hell of a lot of units in the codex.
