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Some of the formations are actually pretty great in the new Traitors Hate book! Im not going to spoil everything you should get the books yourselves but have a look at this!

I think this formation is great and just what warp talons needed to be pretty decent

That one, the Cultists and the two Daemon Engine ones look good.

I don't like the others at first glance but am open to trying them or hearing interesting uses for them I didn't think of.

It would probably help to link to the Traitor's Hate Formations, so people would know what to talk about.

In any case, the new formations sold me on picking up Traitor's Hate. Lots of new toys to play with there.

I just didn't want to give too much away, it such a good book!

The Cultist one with Plague Zombies will be an absolute hard counter to Gladius lists for sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Reavas wrote:
I just didn't want to give too much away, it such a good book!

You probably should so that way we can discuss strategies and keep me happy.

For the sake of discussion.

I think that the book is going to be a definite pick up for me. The pictures shown are wetting my appetite.

The lost and the Damned is good news for anyone who liked to use cultists. 50% odds of replacing the squad with an identical one, on it's destruction isn't shabby. Them gaining outflank, on returning, makes it even better.

Wow, my chaos could do something other than be the army I use to handicap myself, maybe. Still a lot of crunching to do, at least there are no free vehicles. Death to the false emperor makes me happy though, considering how many imperial armies there are hatred for all of them is strong.

The real questions becomes what to use as your core and which auxiliaries to use. Even with the formation I don't know if berserkers will be good enough to justify that many points, which leaves the chaos warband and the lost and the damned. The chaos warband seems like the default choice, gobs of obsec, a fair mix of unit types, including some we haven't seen on the board in a dogs age. The lost and the damned will be choice if the auxiliary units are the formations you are after. Like the obliterators formation for instance, doubling their firepower certainly makes them hit above their weight.

The limitations on the Obliterators are pretty rough though, The no weapon twice in a row rule sucks already.

With the need to stay near the character, deep striking them in seems way to tricky to pull off and having to cycle through the different weapons will make staying in range really tough.

 Grimgold wrote:
Wow, my chaos could do something other than be the army I use to handicap myself, maybe. Still a lot of crunching to do, at least there are no free vehicles. Death to the false emperor makes me happy though, considering how many imperial armies there are hatred for all of them is strong.

The real questions becomes what to use as your core and which auxiliaries to use. Even with the formation I don't know if berserkers will be good enough to justify that many points, which leaves the chaos warband and the lost and the damned. The chaos warband seems like the default choice, gobs of obsec, a fair mix of unit types, including some we haven't seen on the board in a dogs age. The lost and the damned will be choice if the auxiliary units are the formations you are after. Like the obliterators formation for instance, doubling their firepower certainly makes them hit above their weight.

Its seems as if there are a lot of viable competative options in this book, throw in the new powers and maybe a formation or two like the cabal in black legion and chaos has some pretty decent little toys. I am honestly giddy for my warp talons and raptors, a cheaper more viable option for vehicle killing in constrast to terminators and warp talons will rip whole units of SM troops or even eldar bikes

Red Rain: Ork ability from the starter pack.....wow.

Vindicator/Predator squadrons: Nice buff right there, literally zero downsides to it.

Favored of Chaos: Another great buff for Chaos that has ZERO downsides.

Raptor Talon: assault from deep strike but counts as disordered....holy christ I have been wanting this for my orks forever.

Cult of destruction: Holy crap, this will make oblits even better. The downside that has been mentioned (can't double fire weapons from previous turns) that sucks and all but think of it this way. You would have fired that weapon the next turn anyway, this way your killing more models before they get a chance to fire back. The drawbacks for this are minuscule if they even exist.

Hellforged Warpack: Your vehicle becomes a character and gains a 4++. You can use Demon forge twice and if they ever kill your character the rest of the warpack gains Rage.....Again, ZERO downsides, all good, all around.'

Lost and Damned: Endless cultists, not bad, not particularly great, but this will be a good way to get your troop tax in and gain some cool rules.

Chaos Warband: Obj Secure out the arse, Get 2 rolls on the boon table and you get to pick or take both....nice. Again ZERO downsides.

Overall this is a HUGE buff for CSM. This inevitably ends the debate about which codex is worse Orks or CSM. At this point I think it is fair to say Orks are the worst now :( With that said though, CSM are still not OP and are still a good pairing for orks.
Chaos Warband

I saw the trinity of blood formation and proceeded to make all the dogs and cats within a 1 mile distance bleed out the ear with my screech. Again.

Overall this seems like a nice little buff for CSM. Only time will tell if this helps out CSM in the competitive scene at all, but to me it's a step in the right direction

Note that as per the Kytan's rulesheet you can take 3 Kytans in that formation...

Any ideas as to what the terminator formation is? That seems to be the only one missing.

Overall these look pretty promising. Entertaining and fluffy, but not totally broken. The possed and oblit ones look fun. Speedy shrouded Crimson possessed might actually be worth the point cost.

If the Favoured of Chaos formation is usable with Crimson Slaughter, the possessed in that one would be ridiculous. 3++, Beast, Rending, all for 22 points? Holy crap. Doubly so if they take a Nurgle Mark; you'd have an entire army of mini-daemon princes.

That was my first thought too. Unless there's a specific ruling against it, I don't see how it couldn't?

The other one I noticed was the Raptor Talon and how it lets you charge after deep striking. Even if it's a disordered charge, letting Warp Talons charge right after deepstrike is just too good to pass up (and the fact that more than one of them is actually gonna make it into combat completely offsets the drawback of a disordered charge).

I'm sure these would be rule-debate nightmares in the coming days but for now, Chaos Marines haven't been thrown a bone this good in a long time. Not to mention now I can field all my obliterators and Vindicators without having to take 4 separate CADs. And the vindis all have Daemonic Possession. EHEHEHEHE.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
If the Favoured of Chaos formation is usable with Crimson Slaughter, the possessed in that one would be ridiculous. 3++, Beast, Rending, all for 22 points? Holy crap. Doubly so if they take a Nurgle Mark; you'd have an entire army of mini-daemon princes.

Pretty sure Possessed are 26 a pop.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
If the Favoured of Chaos formation is usable with Crimson Slaughter, the possessed in that one would be ridiculous. 3++, Beast, Rending, all for 22 points? Holy crap. Doubly so if they take a Nurgle Mark; you'd have an entire army of mini-daemon princes.

Pretty sure Possessed are 26 a pop.

*throws pants in the air * Don't care! 3++, Beast and Rending Baby!

Here's my first impressions:

#1 - Over-all Formation. More free stuff; I think this is one of the few times free stuff is okay. First off, basic Chaos Space Marines are just... terrible. So tossing them a bone is okay. Remember that Veterans of the Long War does two things. First, it gives the unit Hatred (Space Marines), but that doesn't matter because it's superseded by the mega-formation's Hatred (Armies of the Imperium). Secondly, it gives the unit +1Ld, which rarely matters. So, it might be free, but generally speaking it's 5 points per unit of free stuff rather than 35 points per unit of free stuff. Not sure how to make this worthwhile yet, but I'm guessing trying to dig for Daemon Princes is going to be the way to go. If you can get one Daemon Prince per game with this effect, it'll be worthwhile. As such, keeping these units minimally sized is likely the way to go, and maybe with Ob Sec Rhinos and Mark of Nurgle too.

#2 - Chaos Warband. Getting Ob Sec on a whole formation is going to be the strength of the Chaos Warband. This is likely the formation that you'll want to use the Mega-Formation's ability on to help hunt for Daemon Princes.

#3 - Trinity of Blood. No, I am not putting together a formation of Super Heavies. I do like having opponents to play against. That said, the biggest bonus here is probably Rampage, and the Aploplectic Storm will ensure Ork Boyz and Necron Warriors never trouble you again. Now, if Ork Boyz are causing you issues, you got bigger issues. I feel sad for any person who ever brings the Green Tide against this, because it'll be the most pointless game ever. Also, did GW realize how long it'll take to randomly allocate all these wounds? Seriously!

#4 - Favoured of Chaos. Like most of the units listed here, these do not benefit really in any way from the free Veterans of the Long War upgrade, as they are already Fearless. I don't think this bonus is really what Possessed needed, but it's still pretty darn good! Having guaranteed power swords, 3 attacks at initiative 5, and shred... these guys will eat almost anything in close combat... if they can reach close combat. Interestingly enough, the chance to go up to Initiative 6 through the Mark of Slannesh here is an option, though Mark of Nurgle is likely still the best bet.

#5 - Raptor Talon. Just to let folks know, you have a better chance of Blinding the Space Marines than you do causing them to fail a Fear test, and the same applies to all the units in the game that you care about. It's easier to blind Tau, Orks, Necrons, Space Marines, Imperial Guard, and Tyranids than it is to cause them to fail a Fear test... even one done at -2 Ld. The only people that will be easier to Fear out will be the pointy-eared ones (Eldar, Harlequins, and Dark Eldar). Still, charging after deep striking, that's pretty awesome. Little that's quite as good as doing this. Any target that can't survive in combat is dead, and if they do survive you are immune to return fire. Not getting +1 attack for being a disordered charge isn't a big deal. Also note, since you Deep Striked this turn, you can use either the reroll for charging OR gain Hammer of Wrath, meaning a good deep strike roll almost effectively nullifies the penalty of a it being a disordered charge. Lastly, as a disordered charge, you have almost no reason NOT to multi-charge!

#6 - Fist of the Gods. What rubbish. 6+ Inv save is almost useless, and getting +1 bonus to repair rolls would only be good if you had other bonuses to repairing... which you do not have. This formation doesn't benefit from anything in the mega-formation either.

#7 - Cult of Destruction. This is a great formation, for SO many reasons! First off, you actually get some real use out of the Veterans of the Long War trait here, as Oblits are normally only Ld8, so going to Ld9 is a sizeable improvement. Secondly, the ability to allow a unit of Oblits to fire TWICE is insanely powerful. I guess I'll have to buy some more Oblits and a Warp Smith now.

#8 - Terror Pack. Hey, you like Heldrakes, right? Well, there are some definite uses here. Sending a few of these across the table will heavily hurt your opponent's Leadership tests, but note that being within 12 inches of ALL THREE of these isn't so easy, as you need room for the flyers themselves. Imperial Guard are the only things I know to go to ground, so I will enjoy using this against them, but I don't see it against any others. Still, 3 Heldrakes are 3 Heldrakes, so yeah.

#9 - Helforged Warpack. What does "second and/or subsequent time" mean? Does this mean I can use it every turn? That I can use it just a second time? Or I can use it a second and third time, but then that's it? Meh, no matter, because I won't be using this formation, because it's another "please use this terrible Warpsmith" formation. At least one model gains a 4+ Inv save, and once it's dead you can... get an extra close combat attack? Meh... I'll pass.

#10 - The Lost and the Damned. The most interesting thing here is that this gives you access to a Dark Apostle, which, when put into a unit of Chaos Space Marines from the Chaos Warband, you get FOUR chances per turn at a Daemon Prince, giving you about a 1 in 5 chance each turn at successfully getting a Daemon Prince. Is that worth 305 points? I doubt it, but at least you get more units to contest with...

#11 - Maelstrom of Gore. Getting Fleet and +3" to a charge range is a big increase in movement potential, and the chance to Pile On Da Pain and pretend to be a Wulfen for a turn. Wait... Wulfen get that ALL THE TIME!?! I call shenanigans!

That's pretty important to remember, just saying. They're just better rather than excellent.

The good thing about the Helforged Warpack is that I get to live out my dreams of being a Pokemon Trainer in the grim darkness of the 41st millenium. With 80% more corruption and 90% less cuteness!

I choose you, Wrekachu !!

Go forth and devoure my enemies !!

Screw Wrekachu, my team has Forgetoise, Venafiend and Helzard.

 adamsouza wrote:
The lost and the Damned is good news for anyone who liked to use cultists. 50% odds of replacing the squad with an identical one, on it's destruction isn't shabby. Them gaining outflank, on returning, makes it even better.

But they cant carry special weapons such as melta guns and plasma or flamers compared to Renegades and Heretics Unending Host.

 CadianGateTroll wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
The lost and the Damned is good news for anyone who liked to use cultists. 50% odds of replacing the squad with an identical one, on it's destruction isn't shabby. Them gaining outflank, on returning, makes it even better.

But they cant carry special weapons such as melta guns and plasma or flamers compared to Renegades and Heretics Unending Host.

But they can be turned into zombies unlike the Renegadee and Heretics. Also outflank is nice, and they can carry flamers and heavy stubbers.

They seem to be using the Warpsmith a lot

Black Crusade Detachment: Not amazing, but not bad either.
Getting free boons stacking up during the game is nice, and it works well with the power granted by the warband itself. the Hatered (IoM) is practically meaningless as the VotLW already gives it against marines, and that's most IoM, and against SoB/IG/Admech its unlikely to have an impact as you should be butchering them already. the free VoTLW is nice for solving your moral issues a bit though.
The real treat is the fact, you get one-unit auxillary choices in either cult marines, or spawn. so tis very, very easy to turn any chaos warband to a full black crusade detachment. A-


Chaos Warband: Big, flexible, and decent powers. rerolling boons may not be much, but obsec helbrutes/terminators is sweet and the sheer flexibility compared to the demi company is amazing. and as mentioned, the ability to turn it into a black crusade by simply putting down a simple spawn (or lots of spawn, or any cult marine unit) means that its very functional in the small game too.A-

Malstorm of Gore: Not too shabby. long distance charges and the ability to strike again in the movement phase (although once per game) are pretty good. being a possible core makes this quite a bit more interesting. B

The lost and the Damned: When you really want some backline objective grabbers to stick despite enemy bombardment, this will work. will not work against anything that actually went there and took it by force, or god forbid assault, but at least gunning down your rear objectives will be hard. the outflank won't mean much as they can't bring anything too dangerous like a melta or something with them, it just makes spreading them around easier. B

Favored of Chaos: all three mutations is pretty sick. can defiantly see this being used. do note, due to the way this is worded it does NOT work with crimson slaughter. this triggers an override to the start of fight sub-phases ability, crimson slaughter is at start of turn, and a different ability. so no 3++ beasts with rending. you do however have your generic possessed with 3 base attacks at S5AP3 that reroll to wound and possibly to hit at initiative 5. so if its not in termi armor, its mulched.B+

Trinity of Blood: Irrelevant to the game, far too big pointwise, even when using kytans. in apoclayptic games though, this is rather sweet. X

Fist of the Gods: 6++ to tanks is not much as SoB shows, and the +1 ot repair rolls is negletible. this is the "bring tanks" formation, but not big on buffs. C

Raptor Talon: free jump pack for lord and the ability to CHARGE FROM DEEPSTRIKE, this synergies so well with the warp talon blind attack that the -2 to enemy LD that got hit by two units is just icing on a very sweet cake. this is going to be amazing. A

Cult of Destruction: This is a really interesting one. the "obvious use" here is to spam oblits with minimal warpsmith, but the ritual opens some doors. Not sure the oblits actually have enough long-range weapons to support a bombardment plan with this, but it can turn your unimpressive Mutilators into murder machines with double attacks, if they ever reach a target. has potential. B+

Heldrake Terror Pack: Another Ld debuff, seeing a small theme here, it might be worth exploring had marines not been so common. the super vector strike combos fairly well with the Ld debuff, but given how little pinning weapons CSM got around, and how rare it is to want to vector a unit falling back it won't trigger very often. weakish buffs, but its a heldrake spam so who cares. B+

Helforged Warpack: don't quite get this one. hide the warpsmith to spam daemonforge? (just how many formations use these anyway? is this black legion or iron warriors?) the alpha engine is cute (making one of the engines a character with 4++ and all others gain rage if it dies) but overall I'm not too impressed. B

Terminator Annihilation Force-still missing. so can't tell how good it is.X


OVERALL-this is a grade B+ to A detachment. I doubt it will take top tables by storm, but it will give them a fight. strong LD, some LD debuffs, characters who just pile up power as the game goes on, strong assault and at times from deepstrike, flexibility and some intresting and fun picks-this has it all.
As I got a chaos army sitting on the workbench waiting to be done building/painting-I LOVE this.