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The only question I have is why isn't this "leak" also leaking the rest of the book, such as the powers etc ? I like this teaser, but wouldn't you leak it all if you where going to leak.

Reavas wrote:
Some of the formations are actually pretty great in the new Traitors Hate book! Im not going to spoil everything you should get the books yourselves but have a look at this!

I think this formation is great and just what warp talons needed to be pretty decent

Only problem is getting stuck in reserves for multiple turns

One of the things people keep missing with some of these is that the warpsmith tax is not small. That 110+ points could almost buy you 2 more Obliterators without the need to stay within 8" of a T4 2W infantry model that has no deep strike ability and moves 6" a turn. If you are using it to get loads of Obliterators, cool, but don't get caught up with the ability to fire 1 unit twice.

One thing I would be interested to see is a full msu lost and damned core, maybe even 2, with as many heldrake packs as possible. Use your cultists as insurance that you have something on the board until your army of 'drakes arrive. Killed cultists then come on from table edges and head straight for objectives.

Daemon Engine Pack was good (for forgefiends, not overall), I hoped Traitor's hate would had it.

Any sign of the rules for the spawn formation? It's just 1-4 units of chaos spawn so I'm not overly optimistic

 Spyro_Killer wrote:
Any sign of the rules for the spawn formation? It's just 1-4 units of chaos spawn so I'm not overly optimistic

It's not a formation, you can just take some random spawn units as an auxillary choice. and its 1-3 per auxiliary choice, not 1-4 (not that it matters as you can field infinite auxiliary)

Yesterday, I was tearing into this book heavily. The benefits seemed small, you need a shitton of units for each formation and I didn't really see the potential.

Today I cobbled together a list and realized this book has some neat potential. The list in question:

Black crusade detachement with Crimson slaughter supplement:

CORE: Black legion warband

Chaos lord: Bike, Powerfist + claw, Sigil
3 Chaos terminators: 3x combi-melta
5 CSM: Meltagun, Rhino
5 CSM: MoN (camping an objective in your zone? Had to cut points somewhere)
3 Bikers: 2x meltagun, MoN
5 Havocs: 4x autocannon

Auxiliary: Raptor Talon
Chaos lord: MoK, (free) jump pack, Axe of Blind fury
3x 5 raptors: MoK, Icon of Wrath

Auxiliary: Favoured of Chaos
Daemon prince: Nurgle, armour, Wings, ML2
3x 5 possessed (who get 3++, rending beast and shrouded)

1850 points, spot on. If you're not unlucky on your reserve rolls/Deepstrike, that is a LOT to deal with since most of it will be in your opponent's face by the end of turn 2. There's a good deal of Objec secured units, some of which camp in the back, while others deepstrike or move to the front. The real weakness this list has is the Deamon prince. If he dies you'll lose a lot of momentum and people are going to realize that. You're going to have to move him around carefully and pick your targets wisely. Luckily enough, you've got a lot of units to screen him with and he's fairly durable with his 2+ jink and ability to fly.

I realize not all the units are geared as much as one would like, but I think this is a "more than the sum of its parts" scenario because there's just so much threat going on. There's a bit of room to wiggle some things around as well. If you lack anti-vehicle you could give some raptors meltaguns instead of MoK and the Icon.

All in all, I think we've got a very interesting book that has more to it than you'd expect at first glance.

Nice. I'm curious about the terminator one, as I have 10 of those laying around...

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:The good thing about the Helforged Warpack is that I get to live out my dreams of being a Pokemon Trainer in the grim darkness of the 41st millenium. With 80% more corruption and 90% less cuteness!

Kek

Have they imported Contemptors and Cataphractii into the legions like they did for the CSM?
Liking the overall lists a lot and will find a lot of use for my large 30k legions. Havent done the points but I am guessing I have already run out of points bringing the things I want grrr.

And now I need more warp talons. Yay.

How are knights listed for chaos? As an ally?

The Kharn one is really nice as well. once per game in the movement phase you can call a red rain, and get to assault in the movement phase, but the enemy cant assault back. then you can assault again in the assault phase.

The only problem I have with the formations is the requirement of two squads of CSM in the Warpack. They could have easily put the cult units in there.
Still, my Death guard will probably try out out the Terminator formation and the Oblit-Formation. Btw., since you can only give the bonus to one group per Warpsmith Mutilators could come in handy to save some points.
warpsmith
unit of 3 Oblits with MoN
Mutilator
Mutilator
That's about 350points for effectively two full squads of oblits in firepower and two distraction mutilators.

They seem to be using the Warpsmith a lot

Formations have always been a way for GW to try and push models with bad rules that otherwise wouldn't sell. The Warpsmith has always been significantly overcosted for what he actually brings to the table and he competes for slots with MUCH better choices.

As Drasius said, the Warpsmith tax is significant. In an army where pretty much everything is already more expensive than it should be, I'm not super pumped to pay 110 points for something that's going to give me very minimal benefits in any of the formations he's in.

That being said, I'm really excited about Kharn's formation as well as the Raptor/Warp Talon one. I've been waiting for something like that for ages and I can't wait to try them out!

Yes Raptor Talon. Best part is, I don't even need to buy anything more since I've already been using the KDK formation for raptors and warp talons and my 30k Praetor has a jump pack, so I don't need the silly looking Chaos Lord with jump pack. Maybe I'll get another box of talons anyway....only downside is the disordered charge, making MoK pretty useless. A shame since Axe of Blind Fury is so great, so MoK would be needed on the Lord and then you couldn't take Nurgle or Slaanesh on your WT. Unmarked is probably the way to go since they're so expensive anyway. I can't really see myself using the Black Crusade detachment, I just don't have all of everything required for the Warband and don't care to pick it up, and I hate Cultists so the Lost and the Damned is out. Between my actual Berzerkers and 30k marines, I'll have more than enough for the Maelstrom of Gore, though. Maybe I'll go that route, or just use some of them (Raptor Talon) as allies for my KDK. Didn't get the Black Legion or Crimson Slaughter supplements, but I will absolutely be getting this one.

So there are going to be alot of armchair CSM generals coming out of the woodwork.

For those of you who are not actively playing CSM, here are some real things of note:
1. The chaos cultists formation is ok, it exists already fyi, it is going to be overshadowed by the warband that allows you to take really cheap bikes/termies with obsec. Cultists are worthless in csm armies if they do not have obsec or in KDK serve some purpose.

2. The helforged warpack is vastly improved in this, expect to see it everywhere as an aux choice. Why? By the time you fill out warband good luck filling out anything else other than the three tank formation, and I touched on cultists above. CSM vehicles are pretty dang cheap, and having the ability to get a 4++ with daemon forge on all the models every turn is pretty sick.

3. We still have not seen some of the formations so lets hold off on "THIS IS TERRIBLE". The Warband change ALONE makes CSM competitive again, I keep using this example:
Three tzeench termies with combi meltas and a boon cost 137 points. You get: Deep Strike, Ld 10, Hatred Imperials, Preferred enemy space marines, Obsec, 2+/4++, and double boon on the squad leader each turn if you wish. That is one hell of a objective taker if paired with a chaos lord or sorcerer.

I think people are missing a few angles here. Namely with the psychic powers.
Assuming we get carbon copies, first turn assaults with just about anything might be viable. Although it might not be feasible in points. If it turns out to work out, the dimensional key might be one of the best relics we have.

With the ability of first turn assaults, the talon formation becomes almost competitive. Screw warp talons, Raptors can be equiped to deal with hordes or tanks and can accurately deepstrike into melta/flamer range anywhere on the board and then assault. That's pretty darn good. Plus they might not get a charge bonus, but they would gain HoW to make up for it, which is the same as their normal attacks except at I10. So it's actually better than a normal assault with the reroll. All depends on the powers we get of course.

Same with the Hellforged warpack. Power of the machine spirit on a 4++ defiler ? Move that thing 18" forward and shoot it's entire payload into two different units. Talk about a distraction carnifex. Alternatively, port a maulerfiend 18 " forward. It has to survive a turn, but with its own 12" move before and after it can basically threaten any unit it wants on the table. And if it dies? *shrug* now the rest of the pack gets rage and has moved 12+ inch forward unmolested in the meanwhile.

I think people are also forgetting that the fist of god can use vindicator and pred squadrons. Nice for an IW theme and phase form allows those vindicators to fire through walls with ignore cover. Sure you could do that without the formation, but now you stand a better chance at repairing broken guns which is always good, but doubly so considering you need all 3 to fire an apocalyptic blast. And a 6++ might not sound like much but has been the cause for much frustration with my sisters. It's a fluff formation more than anything but you kinda have to deal with those vindicators, and let's not forget that you can make them front armour 14, IWND and HP/Repairs via a sorcerer. You could also give those squadrons outflank by giving one of them the Maelstrom raider legacy. Continuing the IW theme, you could also give it fourth quadrant rebellion for those outflanking cultists, which now give you a fearless bubblewrap and a 4++ once you get down to 1 HP. Not likely to dominate any tournaments, but this is a bloody awesome formation for IW and more siegy DG.

The drake pack is equally sweet for a Night lords theme. Between psychic powers, FW and (for NL to a lesser degree) sonic weaponry we have tons of pinning, against which space marines are not immune unlike fear. The talon formation will likely be a staple for NL lists and that happens to synergize well too. Moreso using the CS supplement for some extra leadership shenanigans if you have the points or get lucky on the warlord trait.

Can't wait to see what powers we actually get.

 Lukash_ wrote:
Note that as per the Kytan's rulesheet you can take 3 Kytans in that formation...

What do you mean by this

Exactly what he wrote lol. Wherever you take a lord of skulls, you can take a kytan instead. It's a rule they have.

The Kytan actually makes that formation usable outside of apocalypse, since 3 Lord of Skulls cost a whopping 2664 points.

Do we get the contemptors/cataphractii?

I don't see why they would give us those. The kits don't have spikey bits.

It's still a possibility; the Renegade Knight doesn't have spikey bits.

lols, even after all these bonuses from these formations, CSM is still bottom tier lol!

Fluffwise there is more reason for chaos to have catas and contemptors than imperial marines. Some of them are only a few hundred years past the Heresy. I just want them included so I can use the main detachment without needing min force org.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's still a possibility; the Renegade Knight doesn't have spikey bits.

Ah, didn't know that. So they just come with heretic decals then?
Still, they would have give us new rules for the cataphractii so they can take marks. I don't see that happening and I doubt they'd give us just the contemptor.

It's a big boost for Chaos, but still going to be an uphill battle against the Big Four.

Is it just me or is ObSec kinda of an odd choice for the Chaos Warband? Just doesn't feel too Chaos-y to me. And while it's a good bonus, it won't be quite as good as it is for Marines, given the lack of ATSKNF/Fearless.

Fluff wise this supplement fixes nothing. Codex CSM is still extremely bland and doesn't reflect our fluff all that well. The formations allow us to make much more fluffy lists for some legions but we still don't have any rules to reflect them. Even the Black Legion supplement does a meh job at that. You'd think the guy who made defilers a thing in the first place would have some kind of formation with them at the very least.

Love er, talons models so this one...I am sold

Roknar wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's still a possibility; the Renegade Knight doesn't have spikey bits.

Ah, didn't know that. So they just come with heretic decals then?
Still, they would have give us new rules for the cataphractii so they can take marks. I don't see that happening and I doubt they'd give us just the contemptor.

Indeed, the Renegade Knight set's only difference is that it comes with a new decal sheet. Which also makes it cost more than it's Warden counterpart.

Deschenus Maximus wrote:It's a big boost for Chaos, but still going to be an uphill battle against the Big Four.

Is it just me or is ObSec kinda of an odd choice for the Chaos Warband? Just doesn't feel too Chaos-y to me. And while it's a good bonus, it won't be quite as good as it is for Marines, given the lack of ATSKNF/Fearless.

ObSec kinda fits in a weird way; CSM are looters. However I think it should be more like the Incursion one; they come in, loot, and leave.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

ObSec kinda fits in a weird way; CSM are looters. However I think it should be more like the Incursion one; they come in, loot, and leave.

Pretty much anything would have made more sense, imo.

 Yarium wrote:
#3 - Trinity of Blood. No, I am not putting together a formation of Super Heavies. I do like having opponents to play against. That said, the biggest bonus here is probably Rampage, and the Aploplectic Storm will ensure Ork Boyz and Necron Warriors never trouble you again. Now, if Ork Boyz are causing you issues, you got bigger issues. I feel sad for any person who ever brings the Green Tide against this, because it'll be the most pointless game ever. Also, did GW realize how long it'll take to randomly allocate all these wounds? Seriously!

To randomly allocate a large number of wounds to the tide, get a bunch of small beads and have your opponent sprinkle them high above the table. Since they're orks, any minor paint chips just makes them better.