OH MY GOD Chaos Leaks discussion

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**Bach**

This new book is exciting!

So it's looking like for an 1850 list that you would be working in maybe 2 auxillary formations in addition to the Warband.

- Raptor Talon looks to be an auto include...assaulting from Deepstrike is just too good to pass up.

- Any formation with a Warpsmith seems too taxed to be worthy of fielding.

- Apostle with endless cultists...Skip.

- 2-Heldrake formation that lowers leadership? YES! As if you needed another reason to take these. No tax , unlike the Khorne Daemonkin Codex.

- Formation of Vindicators with Apoc Blast special rule? Might be worth trying but the 24" range will require to work a list around these.

- Formation of Predators with Monster Hunter/Tank Hunter? Looks good! For around 420 points you can deck out 3 predators with Tri-Lascanons. However, they will be one unit so there may be some restricitons there.

- Maelstrom of Gore. Fielding Kharn and not getting him killed before landing some blows has always been a chore but this formation is worth a try if you already have a bunch of Berserkers. Cool, but probably a skip as Berserkers have seemed overpriced for what they do. Formation should have included transports (not necesasrily free) to deliver the payload. Have to see how the Red Rain special rule plays out on Battle Reports to see how good - or not good it is.

- Favoured of Chaos looks pretty good! However, like Maelstrom of Gore, the Possessed will have a similar challenge getting to their targets. The ' within 12 inches' requirement of the Prince may be a challenge so you may have to build a list around this formation.

**ClassicCarraway**

I'm thinking the Lost & Damned formation will be seeing a lot of use, because its a very cheap buy-in with decent bonus (who doesn't like respawning units?), and most CSM players already have loads of cultists to begin with. I believe its min cost is ~300 points, which leaves a lot left over for spamming the Heldrake and Raptor formations.

**koooaei**

I'm not too excited about the new formations. Out of all we''ve seen so far, probably the core one and spawns is the way to go. Nice chances of making your lord and/or sorc more dangerous. Obsec stuff.

People also seem to like the raptor formation. Ok, i get it. But i've played against a sm formation with charging vanguard vets. And they didn't fair too well. And they could enter 2-d turn, dropped without scatter, didn't loose attacks even on disoriented charges and got 5 ppm power weapons.

**Roknar**

That's because it' much better on raptors than warp talons.

**Slayer-Fan123**

I don't understand how a Warpsmith can be considered a tax when you can get him a Spawn retinue and shovel 5 Maulerfiends at the opponents face and eventually gain Rage.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

koooaei wrote:
I'm not too excited about the new formations. Out of all we''ve seen so far, probably the core one and spawns is the way to go. Nice chances of making your lord and/or sorc more dangerous. Obsec stuff.

People also seem to like the raptor formation. Ok, i get it. But i've played against a sm formation with charging vanguard vets. And they didn't fair too well. And they could enter 2-d turn, dropped without scatter, didn't loose attacks even on disoriented charges and got 5 ppm power weapons.

You also live in Casual City where Mutilators are considered a good pick. Chances are the Vanguard loadout sucks or your opponent does.

**thekerrick**

Dumb question here but maybe people can answer. Is there any reason you cant use formations from this book with KDK army list entries? Warp Talons in the KDK book are called Warp Talons in the CSM book.

Does it say anywhere that its CSM Only?

I just want to use Kharn in KDK :(

**MagicJuggler**

Warpsmiths cannot take bikes/mounts, sadly.

For FW games, I see Obsec Dreadclaws being hilariously annoying.

**Deschenus Maximus**

koooaei wrote:
I'm not too excited about the new formations. Out of all we''ve seen so far, probably the core one and spawns is the way to go. Nice chances of making your lord and/or sorc more dangerous. Obsec stuff.

People also seem to like the raptor formation. Ok, i get it. But i've played against a sm formation with charging vanguard vets. And they didn't fair too well. And they could enter 2-d turn, dropped without scatter, didn't loose attacks even on disoriented charges and got 5 ppm power weapons.

Half the formations are pretty meh, if not downright bad. I agree that the Raptor formation is really not all that.

**jreilly89**

Hope this fixes some of the CSM problems. I know it's not the cure all they so badly need, but its something. I'd love to see more CSM players at my LGS.

**CrownAxe**

thekerrick wrote:
Dumb question here but maybe people can answer. Is there any reason you cant use formations from this book with KDK army list entries? Warp Talons in the KDK book are called Warp Talons in the CSM book.

Does it say anywhere that its CSM Only?

I just want to use Kharn in KDK :(

you can't share because they're different factions

**koooaei**

Ok, guyz. Troll setup.

Sorconclave.
3*3 oblits with warpsmiths.
The lost and the found.

Rolling on sm powers to get ignore los.

Spam the field with fearless cultists that occasionally respawn. Stay out of los with your oblits and watch how the hate grows.

**Slayer-Fan123**

I think 2 groups of 3 Obliterators with the Warpsmiths would work fine. Save some points for some Spawn.

**aka_mythos**

I'm not a fan of this new book. While it helps CSM, many of the problems with CSM are in the codex. When you look at SM tactical squads and consider chapter tactics and ATSKNF... You need so many more CSM to be as effective. Free hatred and +1LD help but they really don't go far enough. Those things for free might come close to balancing ATSKNF but SM still have chapter tactics and the benefits of their own formations beyond that.

My point is that Traitors Hate only serves to underscore how the fundamental problems of our codex means the best CSM army is the one with the fewest "Chaos Space Marines".

**MechaEmperor7000**

Tbh, I would have liked to see free marks across the board. That would have evened things out with the Loyalists (but then Nurgle shoots up to be the most OP god in the pantheon by a country mile). However considering the wulfen did little to bring the Space Wolves up to line with the rest of the SMs (Wolf Scouts and Blood Claws will know what I'm talking about), this is a problem that we'll just have to tough out until 8th edition/Age of Imperium drops.

**JamesY**

Well, my night lord raptor cult is finally going to get some warp talons added now that they have potential. Shame that the fix was via formation, but better than nothing.

**MechaEmperor7000**

My Night Lord Raptor cult is finally legal! Hasn't been legal since BAs got updated and lost Assault Marines as Troops.

**JimOnMars**

aka_mythos wrote:
I'm not a fan of this new book. While it helps CSM, many of the problems with CSM are in the codex. When you look at SM tactical squads and consider chapter tactics and ATSKNF... You need so many more CSM to be as effective. Free hatred and +1LD help but they really don't go far enough. Those things for free might come close to balancing ATSKNF but SM still have chapter tactics and the benefits of their own formations beyond that.

My point is that Traitors Hate only serves to underscore how the fundamental problems of our codex means the best CSM army is the one with the fewest "Chaos Space Marines".

This is true.

But....If GW really is going to balance the codexes in 8th, then CSM will be right in the thick of it. Orks will still be left out, as it seems that the only competitive armies will have balanced codexes AND good formations. Orks as they stand now now need 2 updates to keep up.

**Norn Queen Yurei**

It seems yet another band aid to fix a ten inch gash, and another stopgap to a codex I hate. Still with the forced challenges, the lack of legion specific rules, rubic or nurgle or noise or world eater terminators. Our air support's still a dragon. Cultists still have no grenade launchers or good sergeant weapon options. Everything's pointing toward that pain in the backside, ran-dumb boon table. All it really addresses are the joke psychic powers we once had. Fingers crossed they're remotely decent.

**Davor**

oldzoggy wrote:The only question I have is why isn't this "leak" also leaking the rest of the book, such as the powers etc ? I like this teaser, but wouldn't you leak it all if you where going to leak.

Why would GW leak the rest of the book? They want you to buy the book that is why they release the teaser "leak".

CadianGateTroll wrote:lols, even after all these bonuses from these formations, CSM is still bottom tier lol!

How so? Love when people try to say something as fact and not give explanations why. Funny there is finally some excitement for Chaos Space Marines and someone has to come in and rain on people's parade or excitement.

**Slayer-Fan123**

I just like that someone whined about the Cultists Champion options. What do you really want haha

**Klowny**

The trinity of blood looks cool as!

Unplayable but cool haha

**Norn Queen Yurei**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I just like that someone expressed their opinon about the Cultists Champion options. What do you really want *polite chortle*

Option to take acolyte leader instead of mandatory obligation
Instead of just the shotgun option (because that's what we released in dark vengeance) the option to take a combi weapon, a bolter, a power weapon, a poisoned blade of some kind.
No forced challenge because he has 30 mooks to throw at the enemy whilst he sits back and cackles.
The option to take a very expensive demo charge, perhaps represented as a suicide bomber. Fun stuff like that

**Nightlord1987**

I'm still kinda surprised the Cultist and CSM Champion box set they released recently STILL doesent have any rules to function, but hey....

**RadBob**

So is the consensus that Lost and the Damned will apply to zombies if Typhus is brought? That would be a huge boost for me!

**Yarium**

RadBob wrote:
So is the consensus that Lost and the Damned will apply to zombies if Typhus is brought? That would be a huge boost for me!

Yes, they would be cultists in the same army as Typhus, so may be upgraded to Plague Zombies.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Norn Queen Yurei wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I just like that someone expressed their opinon about the Cultists Champion options. What do you really want *polite chortle*

Option to take acolyte leader instead of mandatory obligation
Instead of just the shotgun option (because that's what we released in dark vengeance) the option to take a combi weapon, a bolter, a power weapon, a poisoned blade of some kind.
No forced challenge because he has 30 mooks to throw at the enemy whilst he sits back and cackles.
The option to take a very expensive demo charge, perhaps represented as a suicide bomber. Fun stuff like that

You want Renegades And Heretics then. Got it.

**Insectum7**

Reeeaallly want to know if there are bonuses for the Terminator Annihilation Force.

Also very happy that the macroFormation takes up to 5 Command choices. Lots of flexibility there.

Amused that the Lost and the Damned are a Core choice.

**Norn Queen Yurei**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You want Renegades And Heretics then. Got it.

I would like a fleshed out cultist unit. I'll happily take Lost and the Damned as something else entirely. A half baked effort piggy backing into the codex doesn't meet my standards. This is one of the many many many issues I, and others, have had with this codex since day one.

**Drasius**

Insectum7 wrote:
Reeeaallly want to know if there are bonuses for the Terminator Annihilation Force.

Handing out free hatred when the big formation already gives you hatred [Imperium] and then the free VotLW gives you hatred [Marines] That's now triple stacking of a useless rule. Still, I guess it's not 100% useless when you're fighting something outside the Imperium (but it's still hatred, and thus, worthless). Shooting at the thing as soon as you deep strike is interesting though as it means that you get to shoot before being intercepted (i guess). Free Terminator armour isn't much of a benefit when you have to buy a minimum of 9 Terminators and a character to get it.

Maybe coming in and blowing your combi plasma/melta load at some stuff and then running in the shooting phase (because you undoubtedly scattered off target due to no scatter mitigation in the CSM dex) might be ok, but I certainly don't ever recall seeing a list with 3 units of Terminators in it before this and the bonus is very Meh.

**nareik**

Roknar wrote:
I think people are missing a few angles here. Namely with the psychic powers.
Assuming we get carbon copies, first turn assaults with just about anything might be viable. Although it might not be feasible in points. If it turns out to work out, the dimensional key might be one of the best relics we have.

With the ability of first turn assaults, the talon formation becomes almost competitive. Screw warp talons, Raptors can be equiped to deal with hordes or tanks and can accurately deepstrike into melta/flamer range anywhere on the board and then assault. That's pretty darn good. Plus they might not get a charge bonus, but they would gain HoW to make up for it, which is the same as their normal attacks except at I10. So it's actually better than a normal assault with the reroll. All depends on the powers we get of course.

Same with the Hellforged warpack. Power of the machine spirit on a 4++ defiler ? Move that thing 18" forward and shoot it's entire payload into two different units. Talk about a distraction carnifex. Alternatively, port a maulerfiend 18 " forward. It has to survive a turn, but with its own 12" move before and after it can basically threaten any unit it wants on the table. And if it dies? *shrug* now the rest of the pack gets rage and has moved 12+ inch forward unmolested in the meanwhile.

I think people are also forgetting that the fist of god can use vindicator and pred squadrons. Nice for an IW theme and phase form allows those vindicators to fire through walls with ignore cover. Sure you could do that without the formation, but now you stand a better chance at repairing broken guns which is always good, but doubly so considering you need all 3 to fire an apocalyptic blast. And a 6++ might not sound like much but has been the cause for much frustration with my sisters. It's a fluff formation more than anything but you kinda have to deal with those vindicators, and let's not forget that you can make them front armour 14, IWND and HP/Repairs via a sorcerer. You could also give those squadrons outflank by giving one of them the Maelstrom raider legacy. Continuing the IW theme, you could also give it fourth quadrant rebellion for those outflanking cultists, which now give you a fearless bubblewrap and a 4++ once you get down to 1 HP. Not likely to dominate any tournaments, but this is a bloody awesome formation for IW and more siegy DG.

The drake pack is equally sweet for a Night lords theme. Between psychic powers, FW and (for NL to a lesser degree) sonic weaponry we have tons of pinning, against which space marines are not immune unlike fear. The talon formation will likely be a staple for NL lists and that happens to synergize well too. Moreso using the CS supplement for some extra leadership shenanigans if you have the points or get lucky on the warlord trait.

Can't wait to see what powers we actually get.

Wouldn't you play arriving by deep strike via jump pack as using the jump pack in the movement phase (so no hammer of wrath or rerolls for charging in the assault phase)?