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 Yarium wrote:

 Drasius wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
.1-st turn he got a spawn out of infiltrating havok's champin that, if we played it right, managed to pull off the charge 1-st turn and wrecked the immolator,

You didn't, since if the unit infiltrated, it can't Charge.

Oddly enough, the spawn didn't infiltrate, though the model it was created from did.

I wonder if there's a FAQ on that.

 Yarium wrote:

 Drasius wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
.1-st turn he got a spawn out of infiltrating havok's champin that, if we played it right, managed to pull off the charge 1-st turn and wrecked the immolator,

You didn't, since if the unit infiltrated, it can't Charge.

Oddly enough, the spawn didn't infiltrate, though the model it was created from did.

Ha! An unlikely but very amusing result from the boon table.

 koooaei wrote:
Played against a new chaosurion with sob (sister rules on orkses - regular sister list otherwise). CSM had a warband with a lord with fist, marines in rhinos with plazma, chosen in rhinos with plazma, havoks with autocannons, bikes and a formation of possessed with a ml3 mace flying dp just to test them out.

Some results so far:
He got an infiltrate warlord trait and infiltrated 2 havok squads that wrecked an exorcist and killed another one in 2 turns - they payed off from the 1-st turn with this infiltrate-av11-side-shooting.
2 boons per turn came in handy. 1-st turn he got a spawn out of infiltrating havok's champin that, if we played it right, managed to pull off the charge 1-st turn and wrecked the immolator, than 2-d turn made a squad with 4 meltas flee, 3-d turn almost wrecked a rhino. Other boons were useless 2-d turn but 3-d turn he turned his half-dead lord into a daemon prince, charging in and killing St Celestine with s6 ID. She got up later on.
all 3 squads of possessed were pretty useless. DP took 2 wounds from contemptor bolters and had to fly away from the mid board, so they ended up as...regular crappy possessed. Once again, too slow and withot nades. We haven't finished the game yet but they might have seen combat 4-th turn...as predicted - not worth it as is. All they achieved was being ignored turn 1, than 1 squad got wiped with heavy bolter dominions, others were too slow to matter.

Obsec on everything in warband played a big role. He denied 3 VP just by being there with some chosen and rhinos. Free LD10 also made the day as he would have failed 2 vital ld checks - with csm and havoks - otherwise.
2 boons per turn with choosing 1 or 2 can be huge. It's a nice booster for a chaos lord or sorc if you invest in them. Or even a "I feel lucky" button as you can choose who gets it. By 4-th turn it was SOB 6 - CSM 4, so pretty even. He still has around 60-70% of his list and i went to around 50%, so it's all pretty even. Will mostly depend on missions, i guess.

It might have helped if they went with Terminators instead of Chosen. They're still garbage at the moment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Battlescribe hasn't done the part with the free options for the Lords in specific formations. I'll fiddle around with things after that gets fixed.

 Yarium wrote:

 Drasius wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
.1-st turn he got a spawn out of infiltrating havok's champin that, if we played it right, managed to pull off the charge 1-st turn and wrecked the immolator,

You didn't, since if the unit infiltrated, it can't Charge.

Oddly enough, the spawn didn't infiltrate, though the model it was created from did.

I'd treat it the same as the ork battlewagon Formation that has Scout, but any unit/s inside doesn't. If you get into position via a Scouting unit, you count as having scouted and therefore can't Charge. But that's just me. Perhaps something for the GW Facebook Page as well as the ymdc board?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It might have helped if they went with Terminators instead of Chosen. They're still garbage at the moment.

His list was in no way optimised. For example, his Lord was just a footslogger joined to chosen. He would have been way more frightening if he had a bike and rolled around with a squad of spawns. But i must admit that chosen don't look too bad. Obsec rhinos are good. Ld10 chosen with hatred (imperium) are ok. They can deal surprising amount of damage in melee vs regular opponents as they come stck with bp, ccw and bolter => don't loose an extra attack when they swap bolters formelta or plazma. and have access to melta or plazma. Not super cheap but this free bonuses can matter. They might even be more preferable to termies if you plan on taking deepstriking auxilaries and have around 50-60 spare points compared to termies.

Also, can we use crymson slaughter for free fear to boot? Want to get draznicht.

No problem with crimson slaughter, but the new supplement doesn't have draznicht or whatever he's called. It's now a formation of 1 unit of chosen and 1 unit of possessed where either one unit gets to re-roll all to hit rolls as long as the chosen champ is alive.
On a side note, if you like loosing friends, the formation is called "The Ravagers" and the rule refers to draznicht's ravagers which don't technically exist anymore...

Roknar wrote:
No problem with crimson slaughter, but the new supplement doesn't have draznicht or whatever he's called. It's now a formation of 1 unit of chosen and 1 unit of possessed where either one unit gets to re-roll all to hit rolls as long as the chosen champ is alive.
On a side note, if you like loosing friends, the formation is called "The Ravagers" and the rule refers to draznicht's ravagers which don't technically exist anymore...

Why doesn't it exist? Traitors hate does not get rid of black legion and Crimson slaughter. Heck most formations in traitors hate are bigger versions with different rules from black legion. Meaning in smaller games black legion is still a possible supplement to utilize

Draznichts ravagers don't exist in the sense that the supplement got updated and they turned him into a formation with chosen and possessed instead. It's meant to represent him but its a generic formation, whereas before he was a pseudo special character for 10 points. You can now have as many ravager formations as you can fit into your army as opposed to including draznicht for 10 points once.

Roknar wrote:
No problem with crimson slaughter, but the new supplement doesn't have draznicht or whatever he's called. It's now a formation of 1 unit of chosen and 1 unit of possessed where either one unit gets to re-roll all to hit rolls as long as the chosen champ is alive.
On a side note, if you like loosing friends, the formation is called "The Ravagers" and the rule refers to draznicht's ravagers which don't technically exist anymore...

I can't believe someone thinks the formation is good enough that it'll make you loose friends.

Relax lol, I was just taking a jab at GW's rules writing.

I just finished my second game using Traitor's Hate and I must say I really like this book a lot. My first game was 2.000 points against an ork army with an imperial guard 'looted' tank squadron as allies. Neither list was really optimized and I brought:

- Warband with Ahriman, havocs, melta termis and plasma chosen.
- Mutilator formation with 3 single mutilators
- Spawn
- Cabal with 3 sorcerers

The new psychic powers are dope as feth. I absolutely demolished nearly every vehicle on the table because Ahriman and 1 sorcerer had the scrap code witchfire power. We weren't entirely sure how the power affected flyers but ruled that it did affect them as normal (The new FAQ draft says that you don't need to roll to hit on witchfires that don't have a profile and we found no indication that this wouldn't apply to flyers).

There was a big Warbiker unit which collided with my biker/Khorne juggerlord/Sorcerer unit and I have to say I kind of lucked out there because my lord barely survived and got healed by the sorcerer for 3 wounds the turn after.

I lost that game but it was largely due to the fact that my Mutilators were useless (as they tend to be) and my opponents had a bit more luck drawing objective cards.

My second game was 1350 points and I brought a similar army. I dropped the mutilator formation, Ahriman and the plasma chosen along with some upgrades. My opponent brought a mix of IG and Tau.
Again, Heretech powers proved themselves invaluable at dealing with vehicles. I rolled over his army and won hard.

The biggest surpise however, is that this book completely fixes one of my biggest bugbears in the Chaos codex, the Chaos boon table. During both games it far made up for its random nature and it has turned from my worst enemy into my best friend. If you tank all of those boons into one character you're bound to get useful things (and it makes the re-roll boon warlord trait really powerful) and you can discard spawnhood and Dark apothesis.

I expected it to help but I didn't expect that that they would nail it in terms of usefulness.

Very fun book!

I played 2k this weekend as well, and spawned 2 daemon princes, on top of the one I already had on the table. They then proceeded to run around wrecking gak in CC. It was pretty good. I have to say you are corrct about the boon table. Rolling twice on every turn, on top of killing gak is pretty awesome. Just gotta remember to apply the boons at the time they are needed. Forgot about my toughness to my Warpsmith, since my other 2 HQs became Daemon princes, and then he got Insta-killed, when he should not have. Over all though it was way more fun than normal.

DaPino wrote:
We weren't entirely sure how the power affected flyers but ruled that it did affect them as normal (The new FAQ draft says that you don't need to roll to hit on witchfires that don't have a profile and we found no indication that this wouldn't apply to flyers).

You can't use powers that don't roll to hit as snapshots and you can only hit zooming flyers with snapshots. The only exception is nova powers iirc.

Good games all in all! I've found that muties can be used to some effect if you either build a list around them or are lucky with deepstrikes. Otherwise, i'd say go with oblis or termies if you want some awesome termie-like models.

 Drasius wrote:

 Aipoch wrote:
At minimum, there should be 5 chaos books (or one main black legion book, and one much larger legion compendium; or even just one big ass book with details for each individual legion

No, there's no need for 5 books, that's just stupid. The 3.5 book managed to cram flavour and strong rules into 1 book that was roughly the same page count or less than the current CSM dex and definitely less page count than the current Vanilla Marines book. It's really not that hard, and I wish people would stop asking for a book for each legion or a book for each god or whatever other slowed thing they feels justifies having multiple books.

1 book is all it would take, think about the amount of times you'd be reprinting the same statline for common units (rhino, csm, cultists, Terminators, Defiler, Vindicators, Predator, Havocs, chosen, lords, Sorcerers, dark Apostles etc) if you wanted 2+ books? It'd be 50%+ the same damn book for nothing.

It did cram quite a bit into one book. However, that isn't to say you couldn't cram just as much 5 times over. Think of it this way, your undivided legion book would house your Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, and secondary/renegade legions that are appropriate (I.E, your Crimson Slaughter and such). Then you have your Emperors Children, who can bring enough uniqueness to every model (vehicles included) that there would not need to be a reprint, of any stat line. Renegades dedicated to Slaanesh go here too, along with Daemons of Slaanesh. Same holds true for Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch. Every single God Legion has the depth required to easily cram an entire book with unique units, formations, fluff, and crunch.

Why 5 books? The mentality it represents. I have no interest, at all, in Khorne units or models. None. It might be more efficient to place everything into one book, but to me some of those pages will always be a waste. I'd rather buy a book that I'm 90-100% into than one which had to cut out or leave out some things I love to include some things I just really don't. I don't think I'm alone in that mentality either.

As far as the idea of 5 books being stupid, I don't see how that even makes sense, considering you currently have nearly a dozen different ways (and books) to show how to field the loyalist scum. Space Marines (which gets you Ultramarins, Black Templars, Imperial Fists, White Scars, Crimson Fists, Salamanders, and Raven Guard), Blood Angles, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights. There's five full books, right there, all of them just a different flavor of Space Marine, and we haven't even included any supplements. CSM could, and should, be treated the same in 40k.

 koooaei wrote:

DaPino wrote:
We weren't entirely sure how the power affected flyers but ruled that it did affect them as normal (The new FAQ draft says that you don't need to roll to hit on witchfires that don't have a profile and we found no indication that this wouldn't apply to flyers).

You can't use powers that don't roll to hit as snapshots and you can only hit zooming flyers with snapshots. The only exception is nova powers iirc.

Good games all in all! I've found that muties can be used to some effect if you either build a list around them or are lucky with deepstrikes. Otherwise, i'd say go with oblis or termies if you want some awesome termie-like models.

Fair enough, I only managed 2 glancing hits on a flyer that didn't die anyway so no harm done. :p


Oh I see some great (fun) potential in Mutilators, just not when they're solo units. I've got a Dreadclaw and it's just screaming turn 1 Dimensional key assault to me if I can get the power that lets me swap a unit out (and if I bring 3 sorcerer's spread over 2 units I'd say I've got a fair chance at getting it). Come forth the mutilators with perfect deepstrike!