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 koooaei wrote:
Well, chaos termies aren't too bad if you ask me. I've used them with some degree of success with combi-plazmas. Hatred upon hatred...but that's the way of getting hatred against eldar, crons, tau, etc - might come in handy won't matter in 90% games though.

Now the main bonus - free shooting on the drop. It needs some thought. Termies have cheap combi-weapons, so it's a must but what about the options we haven't used before? Like an autocannon. 4-shot tl autocannon on the first turn is not too bad. 25 pts is a stiff price to pay though. And it might be a better idea to just ignore it. Than the lord/sorc - preferably sorc - can get a brand which will likely synchronise well with combi-plazma - my favorite termie weapon as we still have no ds mitigation.

So, here how it goes. Likely 2 out of 3 squads drop in - or all 3 if you get reserve manipulation, fire plazma and brand - should be enough to force jinks on bikes or inflict some casualties. Than Sorc psy shreiks whoever he sees fit. Than you have an option to fire bolters or
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 aka_mythos wrote:
No wonder the book is called "Traitor Hate" ... so many of the formations give hatred.

Loyalist free Metal Bawxes.

all termies including chaos are for fun games at best, which is fine if thats what games you play. But lets not pretend termies have been considered a good unit in almost a decade now.

 Norn Queen Yurei wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Norn Queen Yurei wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You want Renegades And Heretics then. Got it.

I would like a fleshed out cultist unit. I'll happily take Lost and the Damned as something else entirely. A half baked effort piggy backing into the codex doesn't meet my standards. This is one of the many many many issues I, and others, have had with this codex since day one.

That's what Renegades and Heretics are if you want your Cultists to do anything but just die. You're wanting a unit that shouldn't be in the codex. Cultists are specifically meant to be cheap objective grabbers or to be turned into something Fearless as means of a tarpit, be it from becoming Zombies or from a formation.

You're essentirely complaining Renegades and Heretics aren't in the codex. Ally them in if you want.

No I'm not. I'm saying the unit was inserted poorly. Lazily. It was given the minimum amount of attention and thought. This is a trend that runs through a hell of a lot of units in the codex.

Little options doesn't mean lazy. It means they don't need those options. They're only Cultists. They aren't going to have a lot of options because they're just fodder. Hence why you need to get over it. If you want "Cultists but with more options" you need to ally in Renegades and Heretics.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Little options doesn't mean lazy. It means they don't need those options. They're only Cultists. They aren't going to have a lot of options because they're just fodder. Hence why you need to get over it. If you want "Cultists but with more options" you need to ally in Renegades and Heretics.

Little options doesn't mean lazy. It just does in this specific case. Yet I was super happy with the cultists in 3.5. 3 fun little themes for infiltrating nutjobs. But here in lies the crux, Slayer Fan. It's one of many lazy options. From the mostly useless artifacts, to the original psyker powers (now hopefully fixed). From the poor choices like plague zombies being tied to Typhus and not any nurgle lord, or warp talons defying logic with their build. Forced challenges tied to a table that was clearly designed to make you buy more spawn and daemon prince models, and add another layer of what people dub "ran-dumb". Zero delivery options for your horde beyond rhinos. The lack of legion rules and this obsession with making them renegades... but not renegadey enough so that they occupy a grey area between Chaos and Loyalist. Then along comes the Loyalist Codex and wallop, GW show what they can produce when they can be arsed. Yep, that's envy, jealousy, bitterness, and common sense coming from me.

So little was done right with this codex that I loathed it from the minute I read it. This ties into the thread we have now. GW has tried four times now I think to amend the abomination that was our 7th Ed Dex. Black Legion dropped a couple of nice artifacts, as did Crimson Slaughter. Daemonkin is it's own thing, but again it's just throwing the Khornate portions of Daemon and CSM together to get a result. Now we've got Traitor's Hate, which might get the psyker problem resolved, but ultimately it's just a load of formations. All formations are is a means of saying "buy in bulk and buy the crap we can't sell."

So yet again, my option to make this awful codex somewhat less awful that it was before, but still a miserable comparison to the loyalist stuff (yep, that envy again), is to buy more things. Buy a new book, new toys, and still be sub par. I'm good, thanks. Some of the stuff looks fun or okay, but ultimately, it's a crop grown from the same rotten soil: 7th Ed CSM Codex. GW isn't obliged to give me what I want, but I'll be keeping a hold of my money in the mean time. The last time I saw their profits publicised, I don't think that was their intention.

 Norn Queen Yurei wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Little options doesn't mean lazy. It means they don't need those options. They're only Cultists. They aren't going to have a lot of options because they're just fodder. Hence why you need to get over it. If you want "Cultists but with more options" you need to ally in Renegades and Heretics.

Little options doesn't mean lazy. It just does in this specific case. Yet I was super happy with the cultists in 3.5. 3 fun little themes for infiltrating nutjobs. But here in lies the crux, Slayer Fan. It's one of many lazy options. From the mostly useless artifacts, to the original psyker powers (now hopefully fixed). From the poor choices like plague zombies being tied to Typhus and not any nurgle lord, or warp talons defying logic with their build. Forced challenges tied to a table that was clearly designed to make you buy more spawn and daemon prince models, and add another layer of what people dub "ran-dumb". Zero delivery options for your horde beyond rhinos. The lack of legion rules and this obsession with making them renegades... but not renegadey enough so that they occupy a grey area between Chaos and Loyalist. Then along comes the Loyalist Codex and wallop, GW show what they can produce when they can be arsed. Yep, that's envy, jealousy, bitterness, and common sense coming from me.

So little was done right with this codex that I loathed it from the minute I read it. This ties into the thread we have now. GW has tried four times now I think to amend the abomination that was our 7th Ed Dex. Black Legion dropped a couple of nice artifacts, as did Crimson Slaughter. Daemonkin is it's own thing, but again it's just throwing the Khornate portions of Daemon and CSM together to get a result. Now we've got Traitor's Hate, which might get the psyker problem resolved, but ultimately it's just a load of formations. All formations are is a means of saying "buy in bulk and buy the crap we can't sell."

So yet again, my option to make this awful codex somewhat less awful that it was before, but still a miserable comparison to the loyalist stuff (yep, that envy again), is to buy more things. Buy a new book, new toys, and still be sub par. I'm good, thanks. Some of the stuff looks fun or okay, but ultimately, it's a crop grown from the same rotten soil: 7th Ed CSM Codex. GW isn't obliged to give me what I want, but I'll be keeping a hold of my money in the mean time. The last time I saw their profits publicised, I don't think that was their intention.

I agree.

I will wait until I have the full picture, but as far as I'm concerned this is yet another 'meh' bone thrown towards CSM.
They can't be arsed to support my faction in the same way they support others, I can't be arsed to give them money for it.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Reavas wrote:

The more suppliments that can help improve CSM's strengths is greatly welcomed IMO, and hopefully we are reaching a point where we have some tools that bring it up to scratch with competativness seen in other armies.

What strengths would you think those are? Because presently they don't really have any.

CSM favour agressive hard hitting plays over defensive play, and allows you to modify normal units to suit your style of play, like a swiss army knife. The marks and icons are unique to CSM and can give you speed, toughness, combat capabilities and more. This sort of demonstrates the level of customisability as we can essentially change certain stats of our units which most armies can not do to the same degree as us.

This very specific, very agressive play is hard. And does not fit well with the current edition as CSM favour CC more than their loyalist counterparts. And 7th edition heavily favours shooting. This suppliment gives us some hard hitting firepower that our opponent can't prevent, which is VERY welcome considering its difficult to play agressive when most of your opponents have such a solid defence. Formations like the raptor one and the terminator one fits nicely in with how CSM handle, and we have some better nurgle defence options with the cultist formation and typhus turning them into zombies. This are looking up, maybe not competative, but better

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Little options doesn't mean lazy. It means they don't need those options. They're only Cultists. They aren't going to have a lot of options because they're just fodder. Hence why you need to get over it. If you want "Cultists but with more options" you need to ally in Renegades and Heretics.

There are four standard responses whenever a CSM player is upset about the state of their army -

"All the options you need are there. You just need to L2P!"

"You just want the OP 3.5 codex and are probably WAAC"

"At least you don't play Sisters"

And of course everyone's favorite:

"What are you talking about!? CSM are fine! You just need need these six things from Forge World and you're good to go!"

I hate the FW one with a passion. My main codex should be able to stand on it's own. IMO FW should be for super-heavies and things that add extra flavor. NOT a go to solution for when the core book GW gave me is junk. The lead on one of my favorite podcasts had an episode a few months ago where he claimed he had "Cracked the code" on CSM. This "solution" involved several hundred dollars of FW merchandise and, in fact, almost no actual Chaos MARINES. That alone speaks volumes.

Heretics and Renegades is great no doubt. That said, since GW treats the core CSM Codex as your basic generic CSM "war band", it would be nice if there was a bigger range of options. You don't need ALL the options something like Heretics and Renegades would give, but an ability to tailor cultists to a greater degree would be great.

I was hoping for Traitors Hate to give us rules for that web bundle that has a CSM Champion and a gaggle of cultists. It would have been nice to be able to take different base weapons or maybe give them squad abilities granted them from the Champion.

TL;DR,

"Just play a FW book" is not a reasonable answer to issues in a core codex.

Part of the issue I think is that they have neither rhyme nor reason in what they do. For example, Space Marines get their Gladius, which is a really good "Decurion" type formation, and the other variations of it in the Angels of Death book (basically one equivalent for every derivative chapter). Chaos gets a "Decurion" that, while it isn't bad, is nowhere near on the same power scale as the Space Marine one, for no discernible reason. Then let's say Blood Angels get some Decurion-equivalent in their upcoming "Angel's Blade" book that is on par with the other Marine formations, and way better than the Chaos one. Again, no rhyme or reason why one Codex gets a lot of neat things, and another doesn't. We didn't expect a full on revamped Codex, but a lot of the issues with the current book could have been fixed with good formation bonuses, and we really didn't even get that.

It appears, for all intents and purposes, that GW playtests (used loosely, most likely) everything in a vacuum and doesn't even bother to compare it to what else exists e.g. they will create a formation without looking at what similar formations already do, to ensure that the power level is consistent, so you end up with two formations that have similar composition for two different armies but vastly different power levels.

Again, I've stated I'm a fluffy player. I play (relatively speaking, since technically I don't play right now due to not having models) very casually and prefer to have a story-driven game instead of "show up and play" so I don't think these formations are utter garbage. The Chaos Warband itself looks pretty cool (visually) to me and should I decide to continue with standard CSM that is likely what I'm going to collect and build first. The Raptor one looks neat. The one that lets you spam Maulerfiends and such is cool because I like those models. But i won't pretend that the formations are as good as they could have been, or that they fix anything that needed to be fixed. In a vacuum they may seem to be okay, but the problem is the game doesn't take place in a vacuum. Those formations aren't nearly half as good as any of the equivalent ones that you see elsewhere, and the biggest problem is there can be no reason other than ignorance//incompetence as to WHY that's the case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tycho wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Little options doesn't mean lazy. It means they don't need those options. They're only Cultists. They aren't going to have a lot of options because they're just fodder. Hence why you need to get over it. If you want "Cultists but with more options" you need to ally in Renegades and Heretics.

There are four standard responses whenever a CSM player is upset about the state of their army -

"All the options you need are there. You just need to L2P!"

"You just want the OP 3.5 codex and are probably WAAC"

"At least you don't play Sisters"

And of course everyone's favorite:

"What are you talking about!? CSM are fine! You just need need these six things from Forge World and you're good to go!"

I hate the FW one with a passion. My main codex should be able to stand on it's own. IMO FW should be for super-heavies and things that add extra flavor. NOT a go to solution for when the core book GW gave me is junk. The lead on one of my favorite podcasts had an episode a few months ago where he claimed he had "Cracked the code" on CSM. This "solution" involved several hundred dollars of FW merchandise and, in fact, almost no actual Chaos MARINES. That alone speaks volumes.

Heretics and Renegades is great no doubt. That said, since GW treats the core CSM Codex as your basic generic CSM "war band", it would be nice if there was a bigger range of options. You don't need ALL the options something like Heretics and Renegades would give, but an ability to tailor cultists to a greater degree would be great.

I was hoping for Traitors Hate to give us rules for that web bundle that has a CSM Champion and a gaggle of cultists. It would have been nice to be able to take different base weapons or maybe give them squad abilities granted them from the Champion.

TL;DR,

"Just play a FW book" is not a reasonable answer to issues in a core codex.

You also forgot "Just play with the SM dex and pretend you're playing a Legion"

Completely agree. As a CSM player I get very tired of seeing "Chaos Space Marine" lists that have barely any actual Chaos Marines in them. Also if that's the podcast I'm thinking of, to be fair each Rapier weapons battery has like 2 Marines in them :p but interesting to note that those are still intended for 30k armies, and it's just one of those "and CSM can use it too" kinda things

But yes, Forgeworld should be for additional extras, not core things. It's bad enough that you tend to frequently see FW flyers and superheavies in regular 40k games (literally every single 40k game I've seen at my local GW has at least one giant flyer from FW on the table), it doesn't need to take the place of the normal army as well.

 Byte wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Cultist one with Plague Zombies will be an absolute hard counter to Gladius lists for sure.

Which is that?

The Lost and the Damned. 4-8 units of cultists with a dark apostle. Take Typhus as your lord in the Warband and you can make all those cultists zombies.

This is pretty good. I can't wait for the next Chaos Space Marines Codex to incorporate all of this into a single book.

On an unrelated note, indecisive person I am, does anyone think these formations will make CSM more fun to play than they were before? I am trying to make a final choice between CSM w/Traitor's Hate and KDK and actually stick to it (don't hold your breath ) but I'm trying to figure out which looks like it would be more fun to actually play in the game.

Reavas wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Reavas wrote:

The more suppliments that can help improve CSM's strengths is greatly welcomed IMO, and hopefully we are reaching a point where we have some tools that bring it up to scratch with competativness seen in other armies.

What strengths would you think those are? Because presently they don't really have any.

CSM favour agressive hard hitting plays over defensive play, and allows you to modify normal units to suit your style of play, like a swiss army knife. The marks and icons are unique to CSM and can give you speed, toughness, combat capabilities and more. This sort of demonstrates the level of customisability as we can essentially change certain stats of our units which most armies can not do to the same degree as us.

This very specific, very agressive play is hard. And does not fit well with the current edition as CSM favour CC more than their loyalist counterparts. And 7th edition heavily favours shooting. This suppliment gives us some hard hitting firepower that our opponent can't prevent, which is VERY welcome considering its difficult to play agressive when most of your opponents have such a solid defence. Formations like the raptor one and the terminator one fits nicely in with how CSM handle, and we have some better nurgle defence options with the cultist formation and typhus turning them into zombies. This are looking up, maybe not competative, but better

The shooting one for the Terminators is good, you can hit something hard with the Combi part of the Bolters and then clean up whats left with the Boltguns and I appreciate what they are trying to do with the Raptors, but its a worse version of what the Loyalist Chapters get.

On an unrelated note, indecisive person I am, does anyone think these formations will make CSM more fun to play than they were before? I am trying to make a final choice between CSM w/Traitor's Hate and KDK and actually stick to it (don't hold your breath ) but I'm trying to figure out which looks like it would be more fun to actually play in the game.

The one thing I feel comfortable saying at this point is that I DO believe some of these formations WILL add to the fun factor. That's why I'm so pumped about the Khan one, as well as the Raptor Talon one. Do I think this book will help us in the more competitive environment? Going on just the leaks ... NO. Absolutely not. It won't help even a little.

That said, from a fun and more fluffy standpoint, I think it could be a blast.

It's a tough call though because I love my KDK and they happen to be both fun AND reasonably decent on the table top. Certainly not top tier, but powerful enough to be "in the game" against almost everyone. KDK is (imo) a perfect example of something that has both fluffy AND strong rules.

 Norn Queen Yurei wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Little options doesn't mean lazy. It means they don't need those options. They're only Cultists. They aren't going to have a lot of options because they're just fodder. Hence why you need to get over it. If you want "Cultists but with more options" you need to ally in Renegades and Heretics.

Little options doesn't mean lazy. It just does in this specific case. Yet I was super happy with the cultists in 3.5. 3 fun little themes for infiltrating nutjobs. But here in lies the crux, Slayer Fan. It's one of many lazy options. From the mostly useless artifacts, to the original psyker powers (now hopefully fixed). From the poor choices like plague zombies being tied to Typhus and not any nurgle lord, or warp talons defying logic with their build. Forced challenges tied to a table that was clearly designed to make you buy more spawn and daemon prince models, and add another layer of what people dub "ran-dumb". Zero delivery options for your horde beyond rhinos. The lack of legion rules and this obsession with making them renegades... but not renegadey enough so that they occupy a grey area between Chaos and Loyalist. Then along comes the Loyalist Codex and wallop, GW show what they can produce when they can be arsed. Yep, that's envy, jealousy, bitterness, and common sense coming from me.

So little was done right with this codex that I loathed it from the minute I read it. This ties into the thread we have now. GW has tried four times now I think to amend the abomination that was our 7th Ed Dex. Black Legion dropped a couple of nice artifacts, as did Crimson Slaughter. Daemonkin is it's own thing, but again it's just throwing the Khornate portions of Daemon and CSM together to get a result. Now we've got Traitor's Hate, which might get the psyker problem resolved, but ultimately it's just a load of formations. All formations are is a means of saying "buy in bulk and buy the crap we can't sell."

So yet again, my option to make this awful codex somewhat less awful that it was before, but still a miserable comparison to the loyalist stuff (yep, that envy again), is to buy more things. Buy a new book, new toys, and still be sub par. I'm good, thanks. Some of the stuff looks fun or okay, but ultimately, it's a crop grown from the same rotten soil: 7th Ed CSM Codex. GW isn't obliged to give me what I want, but I'll be keeping a hold of my money in the mean time. The last time I saw their profits publicised, I don't think that was their intention.

As someone that actually uses the 6th Edition CSM codex and hates it with a passion, I'm telling you Cultists don't need more options because they're not Renegades And Heretics, and there is no reason I should have to reiterate that. They're sacrificial pawns and that's shown in two ways:
1. They will have Fearless in some manner.
2. You buy them as cheap objective grabbers or minimizing your troop tax.

Based off that there's no need for more options because that's you want them to do what another army does. If you want more flexible humans that don't hate your CSM and are evil, use the Renegades And Heretics as that's actually a pretty good list to read. If you absolutely need to Infiltrate them, you have Huron to do that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tycho wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Little options doesn't mean lazy. It means they don't need those options. They're only Cultists. They aren't going to have a lot of options because they're just fodder. Hence why you need to get over it. If you want "Cultists but with more options" you need to ally in Renegades and Heretics.

There are four standard responses whenever a CSM player is upset about the state of their army -

"All the options you need are there. You just need to L2P!"

"You just want the OP 3.5 codex and are probably WAAC"

"At least you don't play Sisters"

And of course everyone's favorite:

"What are you talking about!? CSM are fine! You just need need these six things from Forge World and you're good to go!"

I hate the FW one with a passion. My main codex should be able to stand on it's own. IMO FW should be for super-heavies and things that add extra flavor. NOT a go to solution for when the core book GW gave me is junk. The lead on one of my favorite podcasts had an episode a few months ago where he claimed he had "Cracked the code" on CSM. This "solution" involved several hundred dollars of FW merchandise and, in fact, almost no actual Chaos MARINES. That alone speaks volumes.

Heretics and Renegades is great no doubt. That said, since GW treats the core CSM Codex as your basic generic CSM "war band", it would be nice if there was a bigger range of options. You don't need ALL the options something like Heretics and Renegades would give, but an ability to tailor cultists to a greater degree would be great.

I was hoping for Traitors Hate to give us rules for that web bundle that has a CSM Champion and a gaggle of cultists. It would have been nice to be able to take different base weapons or maybe give them squad abilities granted them from the Champion.

TL;DR,

"Just play a FW book" is not a reasonable answer to issues in a core codex.

It isn't my fault you hate FW. That's your own problem not mine.
Once again, I reiterate I use the 6th edition CSM codex and hate it. However, anyone complaining about Cultists not having more options is kinda missing the point of Cultists.

No Slayer we're not. The point of that is one only has to look at the needless option of giving the cultist leader a shotgun, solely because that's what they modelled it with in the dark vengeance set. It was the sculptors/producers dictating the rules and theme, not the other way around.

I think the cultist leader is the only part of the cultist unit that deserves more options. As it is he's just there to die in challenges and there really isn't much you can do about it. Maybe the point is for him and the cultists is to die, but its pretty contrary to the expectations set by the "champion" rules. If the intent is to die purely as a sacrifice to the Chaos gods then maybe there should be something to address that.

 aka_mythos wrote:
I think the cultist leader is the only part of the cultist unit that deserves more options. As it is he's just there to die in challenges and there really isn't much you can do about it. Maybe the point is for him and the cultists is to die, but its pretty contrary to the expectations set by the "champion" rules. If the intent is to die purely as a sacrifice to the Chaos gods then maybe there should be something to address that.

Cultists are supposed to die anyway. Daemonkin just gives you a bonus for it.

It isn't my fault you hate FW. That's your own problem not mine.

First off, I don't hate FW. I actually REALLY like FW. I just hate the notion that, for some reason, it's totally acceptable for people to say to CSM players "STFU, you don't get it. Your book is fine. You just need FW." If ANY other faction were told that, there would be riots. I love FW as a way to get cool and unusual sculpts, add flavor, pick up the occasional super heavy, and as expansions for when I play games where people allow FW. Forge World as a stop-gap to a VERY poorly written codex? No. That is unacceptable. The number one answer to to "the CSM codex is lame" almost always seems to be "It's fine! Here's the trick ... Play Chaos but DON'T USE THEIR CODEX!" I just don't get how people don't realize how silly that is.

Once again, I reiterate I use the 6th edition CSM codex and hate it. However, anyone complaining about Cultists not having more options is kinda missing the point of Cultists.

Are we? The fluff is full of examples of cultists using things like looted alien weapons, Imperial Guard kit, and even Heavy Bolters. Some of us would like our cultists to have some those options. Like I said, I'm NOT saying that "Heretics and Renegades" needs to be duplicated word for word/entry for entry in "Traitor's Hate" or our actual codex (that would obviously be silly and redundant). I'm just saying that, being the rag-tag group of fighters that they are, and being that each Chaos army uses its cultists differently, that it might be nice to just have a few extra options for them. I'm not sure how that makes me "miss the point of cultists". Like I said, there's plenty of examples of cultists actually doing some crazy cool things. Maybe you just haven't seen those fluff examples.

I concede* (not consent) they're not supposed to be durable, Slayer-Fan, but there's better ways you can do it. Sorcerers popping them for additional warp charges, or giving one a satchel charge as a potential suicide bomber or saboteur.

They're often told in the stories as infiltrators and mobs. The idea that a unit of 20 or less could spring up in cover, or use local knowledge to booby trap terrain might be fun. As I said, cultists can have a lot of crunch. It wasn't my idea to put them into the dex but now they've been included, I'd like to see them added in a rich and fun manner. The figures are certainly beautiful enough.

The only unit that truly exists to die is a spore mine.

I mostly want sacrificial options. depending on how many you kill you get, enhanced reserve rolls for Daemonic units, deep strike scatter mitigation, bonus Warp Charge for nearby Psykers etc.

Cultist should have just stayed out of the Chaos Space Marine Codex in general, and it should be a Codex about Chaos Space Marines that encourages you to play Chaos Space Marines.

Cultist should have just been their own book (like Renegades and Heretics but not FW only) or a special thing you got access to depending on which Flavor of Chaos Space Marine you played.

 Eldarain wrote:
I mostly want sacrificial options. depending on how many you kill you get, enhanced reserve rolls for Daemonic units, deep strike scatter mitigation, bonus Warp Charge for nearby Psykers etc.

This. I don't necessarily want more options for them or them to be killier, but better tactical roles for them, i.e. suicide bombing, the Helcult's 3+ cover save mechanic, etc.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Cultist should have just stayed out of the Chaos Space Marine Codex in general, and it should be a Codex about Chaos Space Marines that encourages you to play Chaos Space Marines.

Cultist should have just been their own book (like Renegades and Heretics but not FW only) or a special thing you got access to depending on which Flavor of Chaos Space Marine you played.

While I get the sentiment that a chaos - "Space Marines" book should be about the Chaos Space Marines, as it is all the basic CSM units are just lacking. The presence of cultist fit the narrative that CSM are there to subjugate normal humans to the will of the dark gods. That different warbands utilize these cultists in different ways and it is that distinction that is missing from their rules. Cultists have had rules in almost every edition, not always when the codex was first released but eventually and always with the idea they were used with CSM and in each iteration they have changed quite a bit. Even though to a Chaos warlord the purpose of cultists are just to die, how they die, and what they do in dying hold value to Chaos... and thus deserve distinction.

Hence the Special thing you can unlock addendum, or just make them a Lost and the Damned Army with Chosen as Elites and Lords as HQs or something.

If they'd just focus they could make the CSM Units not Lacking, throwing in halfassed Cultists doesnt make the whole army less lacking and at present you dont lose anything of value by moving them away, except maybe a cheap troops tax.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Cultist should have just stayed out of the Chaos Space Marine Codex in general, and it should be a Codex about Chaos Space Marines that encourages you to play Chaos Space Marines.

No way. Because if you take this purist view, then that means no dinobots or LOS, and every CSM needs those herpa-derpa things...

RARR!!! RARR!!!

Although I'm not totally put off by the Maulerfiend...

They should have just made "Chaos Legions" and have ALL the fun toys in one codex. But then it would be an even bigger rules nightmare than the Iron Hand's chapter tactics.

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:

all termies including chaos are for fun games at best, which is fine if thats what games you play. But lets not pretend termies have been considered a good unit in almost a decade now.

Don't forget free ld10 and 40 pt discount on a lord or 25 on a sorc. It might not be amazing but it's pretty ok. Just don't go overboard with them. Min squads with combi-plazmas is all we need. They'll be a significant boost against enemy deathstars as they'll clear off the backlines and will be a thorn in the...side. It's still gona be around 450 pts.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Cultist should have just stayed out of the Chaos Space Marine Codex in general, and it should be a Codex about Chaos Space Marines that encourages you to play Chaos Space Marines.

No way. Because if you take this purist view, then that means no dinobots or LOS, and every CSM needs those herpa-derpa things...

Spoiler:

RARR!!! RARR!!!

Although I'm not totally put off by the Maulerfiend...

Yeah the Maulerfiend isnt terrible but still.

 koooaei wrote:

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:

all termies including chaos are for fun games at best, which is fine if thats what games you play. But lets not pretend termies have been considered a good unit in almost a decade now.

Don't forget free ld10 and 40 pt discount on a lord or 25 on a sorc. It might not be amazing but it's pretty ok. Just don't go overboard with them. Min squads with combi-plazmas is all we need. They'll be a significant boost against enemy deathstars as they'll clear off the backlines and will be a thorn in the...side. It's still gona be around 450 pts.

I prefer 4 in a squad, but that's just me.

I am considering the benefits of the Brand though. Fun times are to be found ahead.

My list I'm thinking will be Typhus with the Lost And Damned, and auxiliary spawn and Raptors with the Terminators. Not sure how to fit that in at 1850 though just yet!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:

all termies including chaos are for fun games at best, which is fine if thats what games you play. But lets not pretend termies have been considered a good unit in almost a decade now.

Don't forget free ld10 and 40 pt discount on a lord or 25 on a sorc. It might not be amazing but it's pretty ok. Just don't go overboard with them. Min squads with combi-plazmas is all we need. They'll be a significant boost against enemy deathstars as they'll clear off the backlines and will be a thorn in the...side. It's still gona be around 450 pts.

I prefer 4 in a squad, but that's just me.

I am considering the benefits of the Brand though. Fun times are to be found ahead.

My list I'm thinking will be Typhus with the Lost And Damned, and auxiliary spawn and Raptors with the Terminators. Not sure how to fit that in at 1850 though just yet!

It's gona easilly fit if you go small/min squads.

Can Typhus make every cultist a zombie or only 1 squad?

 koooaei wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:

all termies including chaos are for fun games at best, which is fine if thats what games you play. But lets not pretend termies have been considered a good unit in almost a decade now.

Don't forget free ld10 and 40 pt discount on a lord or 25 on a sorc. It might not be amazing but it's pretty ok. Just don't go overboard with them. Min squads with combi-plazmas is all we need. They'll be a significant boost against enemy deathstars as they'll clear off the backlines and will be a thorn in the...side. It's still gona be around 450 pts.

I prefer 4 in a squad, but that's just me.

I am considering the benefits of the Brand though. Fun times are to be found ahead.

My list I'm thinking will be Typhus with the Lost And Damned, and auxiliary spawn and Raptors with the Terminators. Not sure how to fit that in at 1850 though just yet!

It's gona easilly fit if you go small/min squads.

Can Typhus make every cultist a zombie or only 1 squad?

All Cultists.