Okay, I got that first one out of the way. But, in all seriousness, what sort of actions and things do you wish you could do in 40k, which would make logical sense, but which the rules do not support?
I'll provide a couple of examples:
Tank Riders - The Imperial Guard army in 40k has a lot in common with the Soviet-era Russian army, what with the commissars and such. But, a common tactic from the second world war has never been an option in 40k. That is, the practice of having infantry catch a ride on armor. This helps make infantry more mobile, and provides the tank with assault defense that can keep up with it. Oddly, there were even were some Valhallan tank rider miniatures back in the days of 3rd edition, but they were intended to be glued on and had no impact on how the tank played.
Opening hatches - Here's one every player of Khorne Berserkers would love. Back in 3rd edition, to fire a heavy weapon out of a Rhino you had to open the top doors, and doing so would temporarily make the vehicle open topped. This was meant to be a disadvantage, in exchange for the advantage of getting to fire a heavy weapon. But, it would be wonderful if assault troops had the option to open the hatch now. An open topped Rhino would more than make up for the damage penalty when hit by being able to deliver choppy units into assault. Heck, no need to even be able to shut the hatches - take a chain axe to the hinged and take them off permanently!
So how about you? What fluffy or at least logical rules would make your games come alive?
Charge out of reserve or deep strike. The single most ridiculous, immersion-shatteringly stupid thing in the entire game currently is your elite, awesome close combat unit shrieking down from the sky, slamming into the ground and then... I dunno, sitting there doing a superhero three-point entry for a full minute and a half while the enemy unloads on them?
Why can you drop down and precisely aim and fire a gun with no detriment, but you cant jump at a dude and slap him with a club?
IMO, the formation benefit that raptors got should be something that AT LEAST all jump pack infantry should get.
"But muh counterplay" oh shut up, shooting army players. You've got reserve rolls, deep strike scatter+mishap, random charge distance, overwatch (sometimes at heightened bs or even army wide), charge into terrain mechanics, and bubblewrapping. What more advantage do you possibly need to make shooting dominate assault?
Hrm, there have been options for assaulting out of deep strike before. If you ever played Planetstrike you'd see why it remains a non-option in normal games. It effectively becomes an autowin button against certain armies where about the only skill required is judging DS placement, and with drop pods even that goes out the window and becomes quite literally a point-click-win affair. Whatever other issues exist with the game, there's a reason that assaulting out if Deep Strike has never made it into the core rules.
That said, you *should* be able to charge from.a walk-on reserve arrival or out of stationary transports.
I wish tank crews could defend their tank during an assault. IRL they wouldn't just sit there whilst some guy with a giant can opener pulled apart their ride. They'd open the hatches and throw grenades out, fire pistols at them or hit them with things.
Vaktathi wrote: Hrm, there have been options for assaulting out of deep strike before. If you ever played Planetstrike you'd see why it remains a non-option in normal games. It effectively becomes an autowin button against certain armies where about the only skill required is judging DS placement, and with drop pods even that goes out the window and becomes quite literally a point-click-win affair. Whatever other issues exist with the game, there's a reason that assaulting out if Deep Strike has never made it into the core rules.
That said, you *should* be able to charge from.a walk-on reserve arrival or out of stationary transports.
The situations where you would have an autowin button should be disallowed by an exception, not the rule.
Make Drop Pods specifically not allow assault out of them, and add a "teleporter sickness" rule or somesuch so Terminators/Daemons can't charge.
If you're paying the crazy points costs they give jump pack infantry for their deep strike capability, you should get to make disorganized charges after DS. Across the board, JP infantry is terrible in the current game, and that's the reason why.
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D4V1D0 wrote: Being able to leave an assault you can't win.
I.e your squad of warriors just sit there turn after turn because they cannot physically damage the dreadnaught that has charged them.
I realise this would remove an element of strategy, but being able to split a squad and allow half to leave combat would make life more interesting!
Look up "our weapons are useless" in the brb maybe?
Vaktathi wrote: Hrm, there have been options for assaulting out of deep strike before. If you ever played Planetstrike you'd see why it remains a non-option in normal games. It effectively becomes an autowin button against certain armies where about the only skill required is judging DS placement, and with drop pods even that goes out the window and becomes quite literally a point-click-win affair. Whatever other issues exist with the game, there's a reason that assaulting out if Deep Strike has never made it into the core rules.
That said, you *should* be able to charge from.a walk-on reserve arrival or out of stationary transports.
Certain units should be able to assault out of deep strike like Assault Marines and Stomrboyz. Should be on a case by case basis so you don't end up with some OP deathstars appearing in a drop pod. Same for assault from outflanking for units like Kroot, Scouts, Kommandos, etc. Would be nice to boost softer CC units without making the already powerful even more stronger.
Random charge distance... you only move that distance if you can end up in close contact with the enemy. Why? I'm sure someone will defend this, but it makes no sense to me. If you make the roll, you should be able to move that distance if you want.
I wish that Morale checks and Ld checks were the same thing. There are some rules or upgrades which only apply to one or the other. I'm looking at you, Ork bosspoles.
To be fair I get a lot of use out of that rule over the years, so I'm used to it. I remember people bitched about the rule as it used to mean that a IC w/ krak Nades would get their entire unit stuck with them in assault.
People bitch about it now because it means krak grenades can only be used one at a time, but they can't use the rule anymore against AV12 walkers. It's funny hearing people complain about dreadnoughts once in a blue moon.
time travel back in time when I first got addicted to wh40k. Tell myself to stop being a fanboy and buy better stuff.
Fair enough, sometimes I think I could have saved a whole lot of money not getting into Warhammer in the first place.
Although, considering when I got into the game, I don't know that buying better stuff would have been an option.
Like:
Spoiler:
"Quick, young me, don't buy Warhammer 40k 3rd edition, get into one of the better games in this gaming store!"
"Oh, so I should stick to just buying the new Battletech stuff?"
"Well, no, you already have all of the good stuff for that game. The next decade just introduces a lot of junk we don't like, so you can skip that."
"Well, I do like FASA, so I guess I'll go with Vor: The Maelstrom, it looks just as good as 40k."
"Yeah... it, uh... It isn't. the Growlers are kinda cool. But, no, don't get that, it goes out of production and no one plays it."
"Okay, I guess I'll go with Warzone 2nd edition. The plastics in the new box set are incredible, you get 80 miniatures!"
"Oh, I know, every few years I find another ten or twenty of those guys you didn't paint and sell them for parking change on Ebay. Trust me, you never convince anyone to play it, you can skip that one."
"Well, this Void thing looks pretty neat..."
"No, again, no one ever plays it."
"Shockforce?"
"Jeezum, no. That game has redneck goblins and female marines that are just space marines with big metal boobs, you're better than that."
"Redneck goblins could be cool..."
"They are, but they call them Gremlins in a game called Malifaux, and this store won't be stocking it for sixteen years, so keep looking."
"Uh, there's something called "Steve Jackson's Ogre" in the discount bin. It's $2 and looks like it's a just a photocopy of something on card stock that I have to cut out myself."
"Never mind that, I just remembered something from the future - go to that stack of "Warhammer Quest" boxes there, and buy every last one of them. Now remember, they're not for you. You have to keep those safe and dry in the basement, then sell those in 2015 on Ebay. Then, use that money as a sizable down payment on a house!"
the_scotsman wrote: Charge out of reserve or deep strike. The single most ridiculous, immersion-shatteringly stupid thing in the entire game currently is your elite, awesome close combat unit shrieking down from the sky, slamming into the ground and then... I dunno, sitting there doing a superhero three-point entry for a full minute and a half while the enemy unloads on them?
Why can you drop down and precisely aim and fire a gun with no detriment, but you cant jump at a dude and slap him with a club?
IMO, the formation benefit that raptors got should be something that AT LEAST all jump pack infantry should get.
"But muh counterplay" oh shut up, shooting army players. You've got reserve rolls, deep strike scatter+mishap, random charge distance, overwatch (sometimes at heightened bs or even army wide), charge into terrain mechanics, and bubblewrapping. What more advantage do you possibly need to make shooting dominate assault?
Pretty much this, i love deep striking my deathwing knights, who are a 235 point terminator squad rocking maces that are S6 and my sgt who gets 4 attacks on a charge wounding on a 2+ just comes into deep strike and sits there giving mean stares at the enemy until my next turn.
I would say that if you could assault with terminators after a deep strike, that would boot them so much and make them viable again.
I have to do this: almost all of your suggestions are in my alternative rule set - would any of you be interested in getting a private message, when I've finished the rules and started a thread about them?
Disclaimer: I don't play 7th edition and only follow "modern" 40K via podcasts and forums like this. So if you can do this stuff, ignore it!
Most of what I missed from 40K when it went from 2nd to 3rd was:
-Hiding. This meant you could avoid being annihilated in the first turn most of the time.
-Vehicles with individual hit charts and actual random tables for where you strike etc. It removed the super dumbed down, "all or nothing" approach you get with simple armour facings. More complex? Sure, and that's better. This meant that a Land Raider was dangerous but you could try with weaker weapons to strike the tracks and at least immobilize it.
-Techmarines being able to actually fix vehicles and have a purpose.
-Crewmen being able to shoot from vehicles with firing ports etc.
-Vehicle wargear cards which allowed vehicles to defend themselves in close-combat.
-Close combat against vehicles being based on where the attacking model was, not just automatically using the rear armour etc.
-Armour save modifiers. I still vastly prefer this to the AP system (which is again, something put in place to speed up the game)
A lot of these rules were cut away when GW wanted to start putting more models on the table, and I understand that. Personally I don't like it/need it. I enjoyed the more complex narrative feel from 2nd (though I'd completely revise close combat and the psyker stuff).
While I've never played beyond 6th edition, I do have one of two things:
- The challenge system in WHFB was kind of cool. I have no idea if the rules for it were ultimately balanced, but it made for some pretty awesome moments (ex. Clanrat somehow defeating a Bloodthirster). Having that in 40k and maybe polishing them up a bit to make them a bit more detailed might be nice.
- Maybe having a few specialized maneuvers for units would be cool as well. Multiple ways to move and shoot would of course be difficult to keep track of, but it might add a bit more strategy to the game.
Chaospling wrote: I have to do this: almost all of your suggestions are in my alternative rule set - would any of you be interested in getting a private message, when I've finished the rules and started a thread about them?
the_scotsman wrote: Charge out of reserve or deep strike. The single most ridiculous, immersion-shatteringly stupid thing in the entire game currently is your elite, awesome close combat unit shrieking down from the sky, slamming into the ground and then... I dunno, sitting there doing a superhero three-point entry for a full minute and a half while the enemy unloads on them?
Why can you drop down and precisely aim and fire a gun with no detriment, but you cant jump at a dude and slap him with a club?
IMO, the formation benefit that raptors got should be something that AT LEAST all jump pack infantry should get.
"But muh counterplay" oh shut up, shooting army players. You've got reserve rolls, deep strike scatter+mishap, random charge distance, overwatch (sometimes at heightened bs or even army wide), charge into terrain mechanics, and bubblewrapping. What more advantage do you possibly need to make shooting dominate assault?
I love this guy! My Eldar Swooping Hawks are desperate for Deep Striking charges! Pinpoint Deep Striking (multiple times during the game with EACH unit), to pop off 18 or more shots (extra Blind on the Exarch) before charging in the enemy makes me salivate! Shoot, take 3 units in the Aspect Formation and I won't be able to decide if want the extra BS or WS!
I just wish my Leman Russ Vanquishers/annihilators could one shot monstrous creatures like they can vehicles.
I don't necessary mean with every shot, but come on if I hit a canifex in the head with a round that can blow up a land raider why doesn't the carnifex die? This goes double for vehicles that pretend to be monstrous creatures like riptides, wraithknights, and dreadknights.
the_scotsman wrote: Charge out of reserve or deep strike. The single most ridiculous, immersion-shatteringly stupid thing in the entire game currently is your elite, awesome close combat unit shrieking down from the sky, slamming into the ground and then... I dunno, sitting there doing a superhero three-point entry for a full minute and a half while the enemy unloads on them?
Why can you drop down and precisely aim and fire a gun with no detriment, but you cant jump at a dude and slap him with a club?
IMO, the formation benefit that raptors got should be something that AT LEAST all jump pack infantry should get.
"But muh counterplay" oh shut up, shooting army players. You've got reserve rolls, deep strike scatter+mishap, random charge distance, overwatch (sometimes at heightened bs or even army wide), charge into terrain mechanics, and bubblewrapping. What more advantage do you possibly need to make shooting dominate assault?
This single-handedly makes BA garbage-time.
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NL_Cirrus wrote: I just wish my Leman Russ Vanquishers/annihilators could one shot monstrous creatures like they can vehicles.
I don't necessary mean with every shot, but come on if I hit a canifex in the head with a round that can blow up a land raider why doesn't the carnifex die? This goes double for vehicles that pretend to be monstrous creatures like riptides, wraithknights, and dreadknights.
Heavy anti-tank weapons need to cause multiple wounds, ie D3, to MCs and GMCs. The amount of lascannons MCs can suck down is insane.
Alternate Phases. You move then I move, you psychic then I psychic, etc, etc. Just some inclusiveness would be nice rather than watching an opponent take their whole turn and Vice Versa.
More open-topped transports. Non-Witchfire psychic powers in transports. Heavy Flamers in Salamanders tactical squads. Psychic powers and Warlord Traits balanced such that picking them instead of rolling wouldn't be OP. Safe and reliable Deep Strikes from sources other than Drop Pods or Terminators/teleport homers. A way to field my old Daemonhunters army without using four Codexes. An Eldar generic IC that can get into a stand-up fight with anyone else's generic ICs without turning into a smear on the pavement. Scatterbikes and Distortion weapons nerfed to the point that I don't get a constant stream of bile for liking the elves that got me into this game.
Shoot into melee. Losing to Tyranids because I have a single guardsman or wrack still engaged with a horde of bugs while my entire gunline wyches with their thumbs in their bums is the mess frustrating, nonsensical defeat imaginable.
Jimsolo wrote: Shoot into melee. Losing to Tyranids because I have a single guardsman or wrack still engaged with a horde of bugs while my entire gunline wyches with their thumbs in their bums is the mess frustrating, nonsensical defeat imaginable.
Being able to shoot into melee would be nice. Who cares about hitting my own troops, if my grots are tarpitting some Ogryn I'm KMK-ing the area no matter what. After all, they're grots! Getting gibbed by friendly fire is basically their purpose!
AnomanderRake wrote: An Eldar generic IC that can get into a stand-up fight with anyone else's generic ICs without turning into a smear on the pavement. Scatterbikes and Distortion weapons nerfed to the point that I don't get a constant stream of bile for liking the elves that got me into this game.
Yes and yes!
Wait... space elves are supposed to be pretty decent in melee? Nah, cannot have that.
The number of times I go to one of FLGS's and all the people there make the most pissed off "I would rather not play" face whenever I mention that my army is Eldar is just... not fun. Yeah, sorry I got into space elves because I like their models and wanted to paint more than just one color scheme. No idea I was picking the most hated/bitched about army. I am working on Harlequins and DE-leaning Corsairs, but I can only put together entirely new armies so quickly.
Also, yes more assault vehicles! DE and Marines having pretty much all of the viable ones is a little silly IMO. Spread the love.
Also, more sensible armor facing rules. Yeah, it's easy on IoM vehicles, but exactly where are the 4 corners of a falcon or starweaver?
Also, I wish I could buy models at a reasonable price, lol.
I'd like something like the heroic actions from lotr in 40K. Would make for more interesting tactics and would make characters more interesting than 100shades of how to kill dudes even faster.
AnomanderRake wrote: An Eldar generic IC that can get into a stand-up fight with anyone else's generic ICs without turning into a smear on the pavement. Scatterbikes and Distortion weapons nerfed to the point that I don't get a constant stream of bile for liking the elves that got me into this game.
Yes and yes!
Wait... space elves are supposed to be pretty decent in melee? Nah, cannot have that.
The number of times I go to one of FLGS's and all the people there make the most pissed off "I would rather not play" face whenever I mention that my army is Eldar is just... not fun. Yeah, sorry I got into space elves because I like their models and wanted to paint more than just one color scheme. No idea I was picking the most hated/bitched about army. I am working on Harlequins and DE-leaning Corsairs, but I can only put together entirely new armies so quickly.
Also, yes more assault vehicles! DE and Marines having pretty much all of the viable ones is a little silly IMO. Spread the love.
Also, more sensible armor facing rules. Yeah, it's easy on IoM vehicles, but exactly where are the 4 corners of a falcon or starweaver?
Also, I wish I could buy models at a reasonable price, lol.
It isn't personal, playing a game your likely to get tabled very quickly isn't fun. Most people know it's the rules imbalance, not the opponents fault
the_scotsman wrote: Charge out of reserve or deep strike. The single most ridiculous, immersion-shatteringly stupid thing in the entire game currently is your elite, awesome close combat unit shrieking down from the sky, slamming into the ground and then... I dunno, sitting there doing a superhero three-point entry for a full minute and a half while the enemy unloads on them?
Why can you drop down and precisely aim and fire a gun with no detriment, but you cant jump at a dude and slap him with a club?
IMO, the formation benefit that raptors got should be something that AT LEAST all jump pack infantry should get.
"But muh counterplay" oh shut up, shooting army players. You've got reserve rolls, deep strike scatter+mishap, random charge distance, overwatch (sometimes at heightened bs or even army wide), charge into terrain mechanics, and bubblewrapping. What more advantage do you possibly need to make shooting dominate assault?
AnomanderRake wrote: An Eldar generic IC that can get into a stand-up fight with anyone else's generic ICs without turning into a smear on the pavement. Scatterbikes and Distortion weapons nerfed to the point that I don't get a constant stream of bile for liking the elves that got me into this game.
Yes and yes!
Wait... space elves are supposed to be pretty decent in melee? Nah, cannot have that.
The number of times I go to one of FLGS's and all the people there make the most pissed off "I would rather not play" face whenever I mention that my army is Eldar is just... not fun. Yeah, sorry I got into space elves because I like their models and wanted to paint more than just one color scheme. No idea I was picking the most hated/bitched about army. I am working on Harlequins and DE-leaning Corsairs, but I can only put together entirely new armies so quickly.
Also, yes more assault vehicles! DE and Marines having pretty much all of the viable ones is a little silly IMO. Spread the love.
Also, more sensible armor facing rules. Yeah, it's easy on IoM vehicles, but exactly where are the 4 corners of a falcon or starweaver?
Also, I wish I could buy models at a reasonable price, lol.
Death Masque helped a lot on Harlequins. I've come out of it with almost 2,500pts of Harlies at about 50% MSRP.
It isn't personal, playing a game your likely to get tabled very quickly isn't fun. Most people know it's the rules imbalance, not the opponents fault
When the pissy face is followed by the face of "wait, your army has all of 3 bikes... no wraithknights... no warp spiders... no wave serpents... the feth kind of Eldar player are you?"...
Yeah, they definately blame the rules imbalance
AnomanderRake wrote: Death Masque helped a lot on Harlequins. I've come out of it with almost 2,500pts of Harlies at about 50% MSRP.
This is true. I'm almost to finishing off my allied force now. Too bad I bought most of my harlies on release day
Oh, other thing I want: Plastic Aspect Warriors! And Exarch kits (or any multi-option kits) that have all the weapon options! I hate GW's resin and how immobile the current casts look. And an Autarch kit that I can use to make one with the options I want, not just what GW currently thinks looks cool (where is my damn banshee mask head?).
Also, consistent rules! Why does wargear on one model do something that it does not for a different model?
AnomanderRake wrote: Death Masque helped a lot on Harlequins. I've come out of it with almost 2,500pts of Harlies at about 50% MSRP.
This is true. I'm almost to finishing off my allied force now. Too bad I bought most of my harlies on release day
Oh, other thing I want: Plastic Aspect Warriors! And Exarch kits (or any multi-option kits) that have all the weapon options! I hate GW's resin and how immobile the current casts look. And an Autarch kit that I can use to make one with the options I want, not just what GW currently thinks looks cool (where is my damn banshee mask head?).
Also, consistent rules! Why does wargear on one model do something that it does not for a different model?
I second the plastic Aspects, and add new Guardians. When my choice is 'be a *bleep* and bring jetbikes' or 'use Troops models that were old and terrible when I started playing the game ten years ago' it feels like a bit of a trap.
Also an HQ for the Harlequins Codex. And the ability to put an IC on the back of a Skyweaver. For that matter, while I'm asking about loadout options, why did the DE lose jetbikes for the HQs? Bring that back!
AnomanderRake wrote: I second the plastic Aspects, and add new Guardians. When my choice is 'be a *bleep* and bring jetbikes' or 'use Troops models that were old and terrible when I started playing the game ten years ago' it feels like a bit of a trap.
Also an HQ for the Harlequins Codex. And the ability to put an IC on the back of a Skyweaver. For that matter, while I'm asking about loadout options, why did the DE lose jetbikes for the HQs? Bring that back!
I agree! I still have the models, but for the giant infantry blob that they are, they are freaking useless. People sneeze at them and they evaporate.
Oh, I second the HQ soooo much. They need it really badly; it would bring back the original option of having a small, elite allied team. I do not care if it's even an FW model. Just one. Or at least give us the option, for feth's sake. I will gladly kit bash the living hell out of it.
Wait, the new codex took away jetbikes for DEHQ? But... why? That makes no sense. It's not like GW cares about not having models for something. Maybe they don't want to encourage kitbashing until they can come out with the new models in 8th?
I'm kind of waiting for other people to get on and start shouting about how we should not bitch because Eldar are super OP now... lol
Have charge either fixed, nearly fixed, or calculable distance rather than a random one. The distance a unit can charge massively affects the performance of the unit and it just doesn't make sense that on T1 the unit gets a little charge, and in T3 the unit gets to charge way further.
I would be ok with some attrition based charge; for instance, if a unit is at up to 3/4 strength, they get full charge, at 1/2 strength they get a reduced charge, and 1/4 strength they get a greatly reduced charge. But c'mon, a unit should have a pretty good idea of roughly how far they can run in a given amount of time before they start running.
the_scotsman wrote: Charge out of reserve or deep strike. The single most ridiculous, immersion-shatteringly stupid thing in the entire game currently is your elite, awesome close combat unit shrieking down from the sky, slamming into the ground and then... I dunno, sitting there doing a superhero three-point entry for a full minute and a half while the enemy unloads on them?
Why can you drop down and precisely aim and fire a gun with no detriment, but you cant jump at a dude and slap him with a club?
IMO, the formation benefit that raptors got should be something that AT LEAST all jump pack infantry should get.
"But muh counterplay" oh shut up, shooting army players. You've got reserve rolls, deep strike scatter+mishap, random charge distance, overwatch (sometimes at heightened bs or even army wide), charge into terrain mechanics, and bubblewrapping. What more advantage do you possibly need to make shooting dominate assault?
-Reserve rolls can be adjusted, improved, and even ignored by some formations and rules, and already start on a 3+ on second turn.
-Deep strike scatter/mishap is mitigated by drop pods and/or any rules that let you reroll it.
-Overwatch is only BS1 for most armies and can be mitigated with multiple units charging.
-Charge into terrain mechanics and random charge distances can again be mitigated by drop pods since you can choose a point closer to the enemies models and not have to worry about mishap.
-Bubblewrapping costs points for sacrificial models that may just get killed off before your deepstriking troops even arrive. That's a tax for the other player.
Don't look at it as your guys standing there and getting shot for a round. Look at it as your guys coming crashing down and drawing the attention of everyone around them with the noise and/or flash they made. Would my guardsman just stand there while you charged them? No, they'd have their guns up and ready to fire before the drop pod doors even came open. You could argue overwatch is suppose to represent this, but I think shooting at BS1 doesn't quite fit what is essentially shooting at a bunch of lumped up enemies either coming out of a drop pod or teleporting in.
Shooting into meelee is another thing I seriously think players should be able to do to balance things. I do oddly enough agree that models should get to charge the turn they come in under most circumstanced, but there needs to be a counterbalance like shooting into melee.
Also, you should end your post with "I don't think the shooting players have a valid point" instead of "oh shut up shooting army players". As soon as you start telling people to shut-up, civility and reason tend to end.
-Overwatching from vehicles; my Leman Russ has close-defence weapons for a reason. how come I cannot use them for their intention?
-Attacking facing armour on vehicles; if you charge my frontal armour how come you hit the thin rear armour that is 20+ feet away from you on the other side of the tank?
-Hitting tanks in combat; so, my tank is scooting along at high speeds but you can still hit its weak points precisely....
-An option to disengage from combat if I cannot hurt the target; yes, my men will stand and fight the Dreadnought, despite lacking krak grenades
-Heavier weapons deal multiple wounds if they dont instakill; so your chapter master with his shield eternal can just shrug off hits from dedicated AT weapons and cannons designed to level buildings....
-Infantry are actually relevant; Well, there go my insignificant useless units.... What where they again?
master of ordinance wrote: -Overwatching from vehicles; my Leman Russ has close-defence weapons for a reason. how come I cannot use them for their intention?
-Attacking facing armour on vehicles; if you charge my frontal armour how come you hit the thin rear armour that is 20+ feet away from you on the other side of the tank?
-Hitting tanks in combat; so, my tank is scooting along at high speeds but you can still hit its weak points precisely....
-An option to disengage from combat if I cannot hurt the target; yes, my men will stand and fight the Dreadnought, despite lacking krak grenades
-Heavier weapons deal multiple wounds if they dont instakill; so your chapter master with his shield eternal can just shrug off hits from dedicated AT weapons and cannons designed to level buildings....
-Infantry are actually relevant; Well, there go my insignificant useless units.... What where they again?
I'm in agreement that vehicles should be able to overwatch, at least with certain weapons.
Melee attackers hitting rear armor is supposed to represent them hitting the weak points of the vehicle to wreck it, but I feel like it's way too easy especially if my vehicle moved at combat or cruising speed that round. IMO, if a vehicle moved at least 6 inches in it's turn, models should have to hit the armor facing they're touching in melee. This will make non-heavy/non-fast vehicles be forced to sacrifice some firepower to ensure the enemy doesn't hit their rear armor guaranteed. This will also give heavy vehicles a durability boost they desperately need.
As for options to disengage from melee when facing something your unit can't hurt, that rule already exists. Read the "our weapons are useless" rule in the assault phase section of the BRB.
AnomanderRake wrote: I second the plastic Aspects, and add new Guardians. When my choice is 'be a *bleep* and bring jetbikes' or 'use Troops models that were old and terrible when I started playing the game ten years ago' it feels like a bit of a trap.
Also an HQ for the Harlequins Codex. And the ability to put an IC on the back of a Skyweaver. For that matter, while I'm asking about loadout options, why did the DE lose jetbikes for the HQs? Bring that back!
I agree! I still have the models, but for the giant infantry blob that they are, they are freaking useless. People sneeze at them and they evaporate.
Oh, I second the HQ soooo much. They need it really badly; it would bring back the original option of having a small, elite allied team. I do not care if it's even an FW model. Just one. Or at least give us the option, for feth's sake. I will gladly kit bash the living hell out of it.
Wait, the new codex took away jetbikes for DEHQ? But... why? That makes no sense. It's not like GW cares about not having models for something. Maybe they don't want to encourage kitbashing until they can come out with the new models in 8th?
I'm kind of waiting for other people to get on and start shouting about how we should not bitch because Eldar are super OP now... lol
Given the amount of 'Please, make us less OP and give us nice models that aren't scatterbikes' I'd hope they'd be sensible about it?
And the new DE book was a strip-off-options maintenance release, sort of like how the GK lost everything interesting around the same time. I hope it's a placeholder for a proper Codex coming eventually but as is it's pretty awful.
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chrispy1991 wrote: ...I'm in agreement that vehicles should be able to overwatch, at least with certain weapons...
Take a leaf out of 4e/5e's 'defensive weapons' classification and allow vehicles to Overwatch with S4- (or S5-) weapons, maybe?
chrispy1991 wrote: ...I'm in agreement that vehicles should be able to overwatch, at least with certain weapons...
Take a leaf out of 4e/5e's 'defensive weapons' classification and allow vehicles to Overwatch with S4- (or S5-) weapons, maybe?
I'm wary of basing it off of the str of the weapons as it then makes the heavier sponson options less worth it. Why would a multi-melta side sponson on a Leman Russ have a harder time aiming at a person than a HB other than number of shots, especially if it's a monstrous creature charging? I would base it more on the mounting that the weapon is on, such as "all sponson mounted and pintle mounted weapons can fire overwatch". That, or they can simply state/signify which weapons can fire overwatch in a vehicle's profile since vehicles vary so much. Maybe next to the list of weapons in a vehicles datasheet they can put a "(O)" next to the weapon to signify that weapon can overwatch?
I definitely agree with those who mentioned shooting into CC. A favorite tactic of mine in 2nd Ed was to swamp an opponent with tons of Grots and then have the Boyz sit back and hose down the entire fracas with gun fire. Then, the boyz could charge whatever was left. It was fun, fluffy and actually led to some very interesting tactical situations.
chrispy1991 wrote: ...I'm in agreement that vehicles should be able to overwatch, at least with certain weapons...
Take a leaf out of 4e/5e's 'defensive weapons' classification and allow vehicles to Overwatch with S4- (or S5-) weapons, maybe?
I'm wary of basing it off of the str of the weapons as it then makes the heavier sponson options less worth it. Why would a multi-melta side sponson on a Leman Russ have a harder time aiming at a person than a HB other than number of shots, especially if it's a monstrous creature charging? I would base it more on the mounting that the weapon is on, such as "all sponson mounted and pintle mounted weapons can fire overwatch". That, or they can simply state/signify which weapons can fire overwatch in a vehicle's profile since vehicles vary so much. Maybe next to the list of weapons in a vehicles datasheet they can put a "(O)" next to the weapon to signify that weapon can overwatch?
Or they could make the 'pintle-mounted' descriptor actually mean something, since that's the real-life purpose of those weapons.
I've been running a Ravenguard Shadowstrike Kill Team. Turn 1 I can deepstrike and charge 30 marines, almost all with powerweapons, with 4 attacks each.
In the last 4 tournaments I've won 2nd place, Best Painted, and 3rd place,.mostly due to my soft scores.
I usually wipe out 2-3 enemy units, then the return fire wipes them out.
My wish list?
I find 3rd edition to be a lot more fun. Fewer rules, fewer special rules, and bring back assault from Rhinos.
I want assault from rhinos because it makes units like wolf guard on foot a lot worse, just because they can't get into combat reliably without buying a fething 250 point landraider.
-Lasguns become worth a damn; So, I fire off 145 shots at your Tactical squad and kill 8 of them? Wonderful.
-Heavy limitations on supposed "rare" and "experimental" units; because you know that Riptide? Well, fluff wise it is a prototype unit, and that Stormsurge is so rare most Tau have never seen one because it has still not been adopted for service. So how come you have three of the former and two of the latter?
-The Punisher Gatling becomes AP4 and gains Rending; it is a larger, more aggressive Assault Cannon and yet it is far less effective.
-Guard vehicles can become BS4; well, we have veteran infantry right?
-Invisibility goes; No more triple vindicator Linebreaker that cannot be shot by anything.
D becomes massively more lethal, but also becomes a hell of a lot rarer; It should utterly annihilate anything it hits, but at the same time it should be extremely restricted.
A Gladius-esque detachment (and relics) for IF that at least competes with the alternates from the other main Chapters. Or if that would be too good, feel free to make the other ones worse to even it up.
I'll put another vote into Vehicles being able to do multiple wounds to MCs. That would be nice
master of ordinance wrote: -The Punisher Gatling becomes AP4 and gains Rending; it is a larger, more aggressive Assault Cannon and yet it is far less effective.
Oh, if the hades autocannon, which is meant to be a daemonic assault cannon, could also get rending that would be splendid too!
- Charge out of transports (rhinos/chimeras in particular)
- Not assume my enemy has a invo save, fnp or re-rollabe save.
- Being able to ignore FnP easier. Like back when AP2 weapons/power weapons removed it.
- Charge from reserves
Use a balanced (as well as possible) system to create custom units (mostly vehicles) such as behemoth battleship tanks (think an Emperor Class Titan, but instead a giant tank/battleship) or anything in between.
I'm well aware there is/was a system in place at one point but I don't think its up to date (I cannot recall what edition it was made for or when it was created) but a new up to date one would be nice.
Having to essentially wing-it when making giant units is a pain as even if the unit is expensive in point and relatively weak to other units people have this odd aversion to custom units, I could build a giant tank with armor 10 all around it and armed with lazguns and people would not want to fight it (not that I would build such a thing....) So a "official" system to do it would probably keep peoples fears away.
Leman Russ tanks that have multiple shells, AT, HE whatever. I know that some IA or something has it... But normal IG capable of doing it would be lovly.
I'm sure there are a few things I can't think of... But that's just two.
jreilly89 wrote: I wish tactical marines were closer to the fluff, i.e. more points, but being tougher and boltguns being deadlier
As much as I agree, I do not think this game can achieve that while still fitting in both gretchin and GMCs in a D6 system.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It has logistical problems as well. No one wants to paint all those guardsmen necessary for a 'realistic' engagement.
master of ordinance wrote: -Lasguns become worth a damn; So, I fire off 145 shots at your Tactical squad and kill 8 of them? Wonderful.
-Heavy limitations on supposed "rare" and "experimental" units; because you know that Riptide? Well, fluff wise it is a prototype unit, and that Stormsurge is so rare most Tau have never seen one because it has still not been adopted for service. So how come you have three of the former and two of the latter?
-The Punisher Gatling becomes AP4 and gains Rending; it is a larger, more aggressive Assault Cannon and yet it is far less effective.
-Guard vehicles can become BS4; well, we have veteran infantry right?
-Invisibility goes; No more triple vindicator Linebreaker that cannot be shot by anything.
D becomes massively more lethal, but also becomes a hell of a lot rarer; It should utterly annihilate anything it hits, but at the same time it should be extremely restricted.
so basicly you want space marine armor to be even more useless? I'm fine with that if you're fine with your IG getting a massive points increase
master of ordinance wrote: -Lasguns become worth a damn; So, I fire off 145 shots at your Tactical squad and kill 8 of them? Wonderful.
-Heavy limitations on supposed "rare" and "experimental" units; because you know that Riptide? Well, fluff wise it is a prototype unit, and that Stormsurge is so rare most Tau have never seen one because it has still not been adopted for service. So how come you have three of the former and two of the latter?
-The Punisher Gatling becomes AP4 and gains Rending; it is a larger, more aggressive Assault Cannon and yet it is far less effective.
-Guard vehicles can become BS4; well, we have veteran infantry right?
-Invisibility goes; No more triple vindicator Linebreaker that cannot be shot by anything.
D becomes massively more lethal, but also becomes a hell of a lot rarer; It should utterly annihilate anything it hits, but at the same time it should be extremely restricted.
so basicly you want space marine armor to be even more useless? I'm fine with that if you're fine with your IG getting a massive points increase
Given that it takes around 450 points worth of Guard (50 man blob with 5 Autocannons) on average to kill ten Tacticals in the open at short range without any defensive buffs? Surely a 'little' buff is called for?
Given that it takes around 450 points worth of Guard (50 man blob with 5 Autocannons) on average to kill ten Tacticals in the open at short range without any defensive buffs? Surely a 'little' buff is called for?
450 for killing 150? That is not so bad at all?
If those Tactical Marines get to shoot first, they will kill 8.712 Guardsmen, or 43.56 points, assuming the sergeant has a bolter. For a cost of 150 points. Which is actually less efficient than the Guardsman fire; the Guardsmen make back one third (0.33) of their points in one round of shooting whereas the Marines make back only 0.29.
So in other words, what you are saying is that we should buff Marine power against IG infantry?
I'd like to remove all the relics from every codex and change Special characters so that you needed your opponents permission to use them.
I'm not for units assaulting from Deep Strike unless their points costs go up Or a player can pay for that ability for those units.
Same with assaulting from reserves.
I wish heavy anti tank weapons had the possibility to insta-kill G/MCs the way they can vehicles. Maybe give some heavy weapons Instant Death X as a special rule, where X is the to-wound roll required to inflict ID.
I'm not sure assault out of deep strike would be entirely fair. That said, drop pods would be covered by continuing to not be able to assault out of a transport that's moved that turn, assuming we consider deep striking onto the table to be the equivalent of moving.
I'm all for being able to assault out of a transport that hasn't moved yet that turn. It was stupid to do away with it. Ditto assaulting out of walk-on Reserves and Outflank.
I'm not for unrestricted shooting into melee. However, there should be a size category consideration. If infantry are getting assaulted by something as big as a barn, I'd think their comrades could shoot the bigger foe without running an unreasonable risk of hitting their own.
I wish drop pods could Tank Shock enemy units and make them get out of the way. You've got this massive armored shell screaming in from orbit. Even if you were able to destroy it with shooting as it comes in, you'd wind up with tons of flaming wreckage crashing down on top of you, which I'd think wouldn't constitute much of an improvement.
That's an few interesting Ideas. I'd like to see anything that has just landed via Dep Strike, which then gets assaulted to fight at a lower Initiative, Maybe I 1 or maybe just Half rounding down.
I'm not a fan of the droppod idea yet.
Not really sure how the shooting larger models should work. Do units have to snap fire in that situation?
If assaults going to become even stronger... I want my choppas back...
I think turns should be based off of your units initiative, higher initiative units and fast vehicles move first, then move down the line until you get to Initiative 1 units/models. Same way for the Shooting/Assault phase. Higher Initiative units get to shoot/melee first.
This eliminates the alpha strikes, the 1 turn and half your army is gone games, allows you to both play and react a lot more, providing more strategy and tactics, and makes sense IMO, higher initiative = better agility and quick thinking.
I would like to have an alernate approach to this if you don't mind. I would not like to issue challenges courtesy of Champion of Chaos rule.
What would I like to do? Assault from deepstrike...and no not the Raptor disordered charge formation from Traitors Hate thank you. Would actually make terminators more useful, amongst others.
D4V1D0 wrote: Being able to leave an assault you can't win.
I.e your squad of warriors just sit there turn after turn because they cannot physically damage the dreadnaught that has charged them.
I realise this would remove an element of strategy, but being able to split a squad and allow half to leave combat would make life more interesting!
You already can.
"Our Weapons Are Useless!" is a rule in the BRB.
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warhead01 wrote: I'd like to remove all the relics from every codex and change Special characters so that you needed your opponents permission to use them.
I'm not for units assaulting from Deep Strike unless their points costs go up Or a player can pay for that ability for those units.
Same with assaulting from reserves.
Why? Most special characters are trash anyways. Same goes for relics, except for the rare gorgon's chain type stuff. 40k Shouldn't need an hour of pre-planning asking your opponent if your army is "acceptable" to play against them.
Ashiraya wrote: As much as I agree, I do not think this game can achieve that while still fitting in both gretchin and GMCs in a D6 system.
Well, it could, but there would need to be more scaling of dice. Technically a D6 can go down to a D2. And, a towering titan could roll, like, 50D6.
Plus you can use a sequential dice system instead of a parallel dice system. That is you could roll four dice and get for a range of 1111 - 6666, skipping the digits (0, 7-9) that aren't rollable. So a gretchin could do 1-6 damage, and a titan could do 1111-6666 damage.
Also, a mechanic already in a game, you could have 10,000 gretchin, and you would not be wound one titan; given enough turns, then titan could squish all of the gretchin, which makes sense.
Now, whether a gretchin and a Revenant belong in the same game is a whole other question.
Why? Most special characters are trash anyways. Same goes for relics, except for the rare gorgon's chain type stuff. 40k Shouldn't need an hour of pre-planning asking your opponent if your army is "acceptable" to play against them.
I don't like special characters. I don't like having to rely on special characters. It would seem to me that if they were removed from the table top and pushed back into the story GW would find a way for players to build their own characters with good traits and abilities.
Or should I say better. I have seen special characters for years in list and it's silly. why would a chapter master be in ever single battle ever. It's like they can't delegate down to other chapter heroes. I'd rather see them reserved for special occasions.
40K does not do this right now. To me 40K looks too reliant on special characters. Well, the lists I see online anyway.
I don't like to use them myself but am sadly in need of at least one for my own army on more often than I am happy about.
Do I want fearless Orks, Yes. Looks like I have to take Ghazghkull and Da council of WAAAGH. Things I didn't do and or have to do to get the fearless in other editions.
Relics aren't that good? My SW playing friend has a wolf lord stacked with relics. I have to choose from Da lucky stick or Da finking Kap. (because is there really another choice?)
Given the topic of what would you/I do. I'd just get rid of them.
I'd take a stack of Wargear cards over relics. You can take what ever you like, I can take a Vortex Grenade. Were both happy and have access to basically the same number of options.
Wargear cards are my preference.
Engine of War wrote: Use a balanced (as well as possible) system to create custom units (mostly vehicles) such as behemoth battleship tanks (think an Emperor Class Titan, but instead a giant tank/battleship) or anything in between.
I'm well aware there is/was a system in place at one point but I don't think its up to date (I cannot recall what edition it was made for or when it was created) but a new up to date one would be nice.
Having to essentially wing-it when making giant units is a pain as even if the unit is expensive in point and relatively weak to other units people have this odd aversion to custom units, I could build a giant tank with armor 10 all around it and armed with lazguns and people would not want to fight it (not that I would build such a thing....) So a "official" system to do it would probably keep peoples fears away.
The problem with this is that an easy absolute an official VDR either has to be complicated to the point of unusability, simple to the point of not letting you do anything, or horribly abuseable. The 3e VDR were always permission-use, and even then they let you do some pretty stupid things (9-9-9 Flyer with a railgun for 80pts, anyone? How about the 83pt 9-9-9 Flyer with two 24" range blast fusion guns?); points costs for every option has to depend on every other option to a degree it's not doable by hand.
There isn't a quick-and-easy answer to designing new units; you have to do a mock-up, compare it to existing units for a rough cost, and then test and keep testing.
Elbows wrote: What's increasingly curious is how many of the things people want...were available in 2nd edition. There seem to be two kinds of rules people want:
1) Make the game more fair/interesting.
2) Make my units more deadly, make the game faster.
Except 2nd ed had unhittable Hive Tyrants and insta death warp spiders. No one wants those back.
Why? Most special characters are trash anyways. Same goes for relics, except for the rare gorgon's chain type stuff. 40k Shouldn't need an hour of pre-planning asking your opponent if your army is "acceptable" to play against them.
I don't like special characters. I don't like having to rely on special characters. It would seem to me that if they were removed from the table top and pushed back into the story GW would find a way for players to build their own characters with good traits and abilities.
Or should I say better. I have seen special characters for years in list and it's silly. why would a chapter master be in ever single battle ever. It's like they can't delegate down to other chapter heroes. I'd rather see them reserved for special occasions.
40K does not do this right now. To me 40K looks too reliant on special characters. Well, the lists I see online anyway.
I don't like to use them myself but am sadly in need of at least one for my own army on more often than I am happy about.
Do I want fearless Orks, Yes. Looks like I have to take Ghazghkull and Da council of WAAAGH. Things I didn't do and or have to do to get the fearless in other editions.
Relics aren't that good? My SW playing friend has a wolf lord stacked with relics. I have to choose from Da lucky stick or Da finking Kap. (because is there really another choice?)
Given the topic of what would you/I do. I'd just get rid of them.
I'd take a stack of Wargear cards over relics. You can take what ever you like, I can take a Vortex Grenade. Were both happy and have access to basically the same number of options.
Wargear cards are my preference.
How would they make their own special characters and not just make them as omgsocool as the last one? Giving free reign to the player base on making their own special characters with traits and etc. would require more work than it's worth. You can already customize most HQs anyways.
And 40k isn't a galactic scale game, it can very easily be justified that Dante is on a crusade with like a company of space marines or something, it makes a lot of sense that chapter master could be "in every single battle ever".
And your SW friend is cheating, 1 relic per detachment. And how are wargear cards any different than relics in most cases? Sounds like you just want better ork relics.
Tank Riders - The Imperial Guard army in 40k has a lot in common with the Soviet-era Russian army, what with the commissars and such. But, a common tactic from the second world war has never been an option in 40k. That is, the practice of having infantry catch a ride on armor. This helps make infantry more mobile, and provides the tank with assault defense that can keep up with it. Oddly, there were even were some Valhallan tank rider miniatures back in the days of 3rd edition, but they were intended to be glued on and had no impact on how the tank played.
Opening hatches - Here's one every player of Khorne Berserkers would love. Back in 3rd edition, to fire a heavy weapon out of a Rhino you had to open the top doors, and doing so would temporarily make the vehicle open topped. This was meant to be a disadvantage, in exchange for the advantage of getting to fire a heavy weapon. But, it would be wonderful if assault troops had the option to open the hatch now. An open topped Rhino would more than make up for the damage penalty when hit by being able to deliver choppy units into assault. Heck, no need to even be able to shut the hatches - take a chain axe to the hinged and take them off permanently!
Also, it would be cool if a vehicle gets killed, the crew jumps out and becomes infantry. Like units disembarking from a damaged transport would.
Also, it would be cool if a vehicle gets killed, the crew jumps out and becomes infantry. Like units disembarking from a damaged transport would.
In 3ed IG had an upgrade that let d3 crewmen jump out of a destroyed tank. It gave you 1-3 guardsmen on top of your wreckage. I think the upgrade was called "escape hatch".
Someone mentioned homebrewed tank rules and iirc there was a rule like that in an old chapter approved. Every armour value had a points cost as did the Guns and special rules. These tanks where inherently worse then their codex equivilant points wise but a friend of mine who's into scratch building had some great fun putting various strange armoured artillery pieces togheter.
I've always wanted to see a "alien mercenaries" army in 40k with humans, kroot, hrud, demiurg, R'kol and so on represented. It's a piece of the lore that's rarely been fleshed out game wise.
Grand.Master.Raziel wrote: I wish heavy anti tank weapons had the possibility to insta-kill G/MCs the way they can vehicles. Maybe give some heavy weapons Instant Death X as a special rule, where X is the to-wound roll required to inflict ID.
I'm going for not having to worry about my 300pts FMC removed by a lucky roll. The thing is ~20% of my army and you roll a 6 and it's just gone. Feels terrible.
I'd rather have vehicles not just explode.
Also, it would be cool if a vehicle gets killed, the crew jumps out and becomes infantry. Like units disembarking from a damaged transport would.
I would love to see it when a Trukk becomes wrecked that the driver and gunner pops out and the gunner gets to be armed with the rokkit launcha / bigshoota that was mounted on the trukk.
Grand.Master.Raziel wrote: I wish heavy anti tank weapons had the possibility to insta-kill G/MCs the way they can vehicles. Maybe give some heavy weapons Instant Death X as a special rule, where X is the to-wound roll required to inflict ID.
I'm going for not having to worry about my 300pts FMC removed by a lucky roll. The thing is ~20% of my army and you roll a 6 and it's just gone. Feels terrible.
I'd rather have vehicles not just explode.
Vehicle players have been dealing with this since 3rd Edition. And I am all for them not exploding, or having a damage chart, and gaining an armour save, so they are as durable as MCs.
Vehicles seem to be stuck in a bad place. While the game follows older codexes, the AV is pretty much max'ed at 13-14 for most things (since that used to be good). With the constant weapons race flying into the stratosphere soon we'll have every soldier in the game with a Strength 8, AP1 rifle, etc.
If armour doesn't get better, and weapons continue to get more and more ridiculous, then all armour/vehicles will become increasingly useless/targeted.
The Warp Forge wrote: Alternate Phases. You move then I move, you psychic then I psychic, etc, etc. Just some inclusiveness would be nice rather than watching an opponent take their whole turn and Vice Versa.
This. I have played the old edition Warzone which had alternate activation of units and the game was sooo much fun. You need to be able to respond on your opponents turn and the best way is to have an I play You play for each unit kind of game (like chess). Also using different dice than the D6. This will allow for a lot of variety between units separating the elite forces from the masses quite easily. Now everyone has a BS or WS of 4 and marines don't seem so elite to me since my eldar baker and painter are as accurate and faster than an enhanced super soldier.
Elbows wrote: Vehicles seem to be stuck in a bad place. While the game follows older codexes, the AV is pretty much max'ed at 13-14 for most things (since that used to be good). With the constant weapons race flying into the stratosphere soon we'll have every soldier in the game with a Strength 8, AP1 rifle, etc.
If armour doesn't get better, and weapons continue to get more and more ridiculous, then all armour/vehicles will become increasingly useless/targeted.
(Sarcasm) But that's what Jink and Cover are for, because, you know, the biggest things in the game should definately be hiding from the little infantry guys. That's just how it works. (End Sarcasm)
Honestly, I agree. Hull points work fine. They should have been a replacement, not an addition, to the table. Get rid of the vehicle damage table; then they can be more on par with MC's. But I think the AV is fine. Tanks do not need an extra roll step. You either get AVor you get armor saves. Not both. And if in Cover, vehicles are already at an advantage.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also agree with acting on initiative or alternative phases instead if your turn/my turn. Makes things more realistic.
How would they make their own special characters and not just make them as omgsocool as the last one? Giving free reign to the player base on making their own special characters with traits and etc. would require more work than it's worth. You can already customize most HQs anyways.
I'm note really saying they should let you make your own special character just more different options for characters over all so we have more freedom to create personalized characters.
They could do this a few ways, One might be having several lists of wargear and weapons that only "your" character can use. I'd like that as a one off supplement covering every army if not in my codex. I don't agree that it would be more work than it's worth at all. We buy the codex and pay too much for what's not in them. Because they'ed rather stick a bunch of photos in them that fill them with useful and interesting things.
And 40k isn't a galactic scale game, it can very easily be justified that Dante is on a crusade with like a company of space marines or something, it makes a lot of sense that chapter master could be "in every single battle ever".
The point I ws making seems to have been..missed? maybe. Ok, so you play the same player all the time and they always bring a special character. In my experience it's always I like this one because it does this for my army, but I really couldn't care less which one it is and don't even know the characters name and haven't bothered to read about the character. I'm all for neutering that kind of thing. But that's just how I see it.
And your SW friend is cheating, 1 relic per detachment. And how are wargear cards any different than relics in most cases? Sounds like you just want better ork relics.
My SW friend I don't think was cheating given the wording in the codex. However, now with the faq I can see how he should be doing it.
As far as Me and relics go, I'm not really sure. I didn't even use any for the first two years( is it past two years now?.. can't remember) Just started using them this year or late last year. feels like I've hardly used them. My point is there's a small list of relics for each army and I think there should be more options which could be put in the rule book, like warlord traits.
But I'll take a fat stack of Wargear cards and Strategy cards over that.
It seems sad to me that on forums players are beating the drums of it's this one or that one don't bother with the rest.
Isn't it a problem if we as players look at our list of relics and only ever choose one or two from the list?
I'd either come up with a better way or just amputate.
"Sorry lads, dat list's ave ta go."
Red_Ink_Cat wrote: Honestly, I agree. Hull points work fine. They should have been a replacement, not an addition, to the table. Get rid of the vehicle damage table; then they can be more on par with MC's. But I think the AV is fine. Tanks do not need an extra roll step. You either get AVor you get armor saves. Not both. And if in Cover, vehicles are already at an advantage.
Dare you suggest that GW overuse random tables? That sounds like HERESY
ShieldBrother wrote: ...How would they make their own special characters and not just make them as omgsocool as the last one? Giving free reign to the player base on making their own special characters with traits and etc. would require more work than it's worth. You can already customize most HQs anyways...
A better solution would be to stop gutting generic characters' options to make special characters more special. Coteaz' interceptor shot used to be the function of a guy in the Henchmen warband before they took it away to make him more unique (you also used to be able to get generic ML2 Inquisitors with artificer armour before they took that away).
And your SW friend is cheating, 1 relic per detachment. And how are wargear cards any different than relics in most cases? Sounds like you just want better ork relics.
My SW friend I don't think was cheating given the wording in the codex. However, now with the faq I can see how he should be doing it.
As far as Me and relics go, I'm not really sure. I didn't even use any for the first two years( is it past two years now?.. can't remember) Just started using them this year or late last year. feels like I've hardly used them. My point is there's a small list of relics for each army and I think there should be more options which could be put in the rule book, like warlord traits.
But I'll take a fat stack of Wargear cards and Strategy cards over that.
It seems sad to me that on forums players are beating the drums of it's this one or that one don't bother with the rest.
Isn't it a problem if we as players look at our list of relics and only ever choose one or two from the list?
I'd either come up with a better way or just amputate.
"Sorry lads, dat list's ave ta go."
The 'Relics' are a weird design decision in the first place. Before 6e normal power weapons/power fists/et cetera were judged sufficient for most characters (I've been poking through some old Codexes out of curiosity and the Special Characters in the 4e Space Marines Codex had either generic weapons or master-crafted generic weapons (except for Shrike, who has...a master-crafted generic weapon with Rending)), and there was a 'Special-Issue Wargear' section that had useful and interesting non-unique support items. These days 'Special-Issue Wargear' has been stripped down to mounts and meltabombs, everyone and their mother has 'unique' melee weapons, and 'special characters' are loaded with piles of unique toys and rules stolen from the masses.
Red_Ink_Cat wrote: Honestly, I agree. Hull points work fine. They should have been a replacement, not an addition, to the table. Get rid of the vehicle damage table; then they can be more on par with MC's. But I think the AV is fine. Tanks do not need an extra roll step. You either get AVor you get armor saves. Not both. And if in Cover, vehicles are already at an advantage.
Dare you suggest that GW overuse random tables? That sounds like HERESY
Please roll on *BLAM* table to see results.
But seriously the vehicle system is a mess currently as HP, lack of saves, and damage table royally hose standard vehicles. I am a huge proponent of vehicles getting armor saves to help make anti vehicle weapons the better option relative to the high strength AP- spam or volume of fire HP stripping weapons like gauss. Damage table is gak when it overlaps with the HP system but outright removing it is a bit more tricky when weapons like Meltas bank on explosions. I like the concept of the damage table shaking the crew and damaging weapons but the execution and how it impacts combat vehicles makes currently bad.
Red_Ink_Cat wrote: Honestly, I agree. Hull points work fine. They should have been a replacement, not an addition, to the table. Get rid of the vehicle damage table; then they can be more on par with MC's. But I think the AV is fine. Tanks do not need an extra roll step. You either get AVor you get armor saves. Not both. And if in Cover, vehicles are already at an advantage.
Dare you suggest that GW overuse random tables? That sounds like HERESY
Please roll on *BLAM* table to see results.
But seriously the vehicle system is a mess currently as HP, lack of saves, and damage table royally hose standard vehicles. I am a huge proponent of vehicles getting armor saves to help make anti vehicle weapons the better option relative to the high strength AP- spam or volume of fire HP stripping weapons like gauss. Damage table is gak when it overlaps with the HP system but outright removing it is a bit more tricky when weapons like Meltas bank on explosions. I like the concept of the damage table shaking the crew and damaging weapons but the execution and how it impacts combat vehicles makes currently bad.
This is a constant argument over on Proposed Rules. Personally I'm a proponent of increasing hull points and decreasing the spammability of mid-Strength weapons as a quick patch; absent scatterbikes and the like hull points become a solution to the 4e problem of throwing ten melta hits into a Falcon and just Shaking it instead of a new problem.
Being able to run and assault as standard or assault out of a vehicle without the assault transport special rule, I'm ok with it being disordered but the waiting around to get shot is so frustrating.
You always get less out of assault units in comparison to shootingif only because they lay on the hurt T1 onwards whilst you can spend 2/3 turns trying to get into close combat (almost half the game damn it!)
Pick&Pay for psychic powers
Have vehicles with an armour save (3+ super/heavy, 4+ standard, 5+ open topped)
Play more games against people with superheavies
Relics are.... Well they vary.
On the one hand some are amazingly good (looking at you Shield Eternal and Burning Blade) such as the Marine ones (and probably the Eldar and tau ones, but I havnt encountered those.)
On the other hand some are medicore at best (Death Mask of Ollinaius Pious) to just plain bad (the Tactical Auto-Reliquary of Tiberius) like the Guard relics.
master of ordinance wrote: Relics are.... Well they vary.
On the one hand some are amazingly good (looking at you Shield Eternal and Burning Blade) such as the Marine ones (and probably the Eldar and tau ones, but I havnt encountered those.)
On the other hand some are medicore at best (Death Mask of Ollinaius Pious) to just plain bad (the Tactical Auto-Reliquary of Tiberius) like the Guard relics.
Eldar have one good Relic (the Spirit Stone of Anath'lan), three Relics that are there to trap you into trying to kit an Autarch out for melee, one that's funny but not particularly useful (Faolchu's Wing: 30pts to run 48" if you didn't shoot or use psychic powers and reroll cover saves for the turn. Or you could take a Jetbike for 15pts and run 36" after casting powers.), and a couple of mediocre guns (an AP3 sniper rifle and an AP3 shuriken pistol).
Yes, there's a bit of the Craftworld book that's not broken as *bleep*. Shock and horror.
Elbows wrote: Silly question for a non-player. What is a relic? How is it different from a wargear card?
A unique piece of wargear that does something special. EG, the Shield Eternal is a Storm Shield that gives the wielder Eternal Warrior, the Burning Blade is a Power Sword that is Master Crafted, AP 2 and gives the user +2 strength, but inflicts a wound on them on a D6 roll of a 1.
It's like the same idea as a wargear card. A few are weapons, armour, banners, or something special, that kinda thing. Each codex only having say 6 or so. A character, normally can have only one from the list and or only one in total.
Armies are limited in their selection to those from their codex and supplements. Depending.
This means some armies may have access to more choices than others. Unlike the Wargear cards where it was more or less a pool of things and most every army had access to them as well as to those for their own army.
Hope that sums it up.
One thing I always felt would be "interesting" (if not necessarily conducive to gameplay) would be if 40k allowed the ability to model proper barrage fire. Not the "no LOS shooting" in the current game, so much as the ability to concentrate fire at a particular area to deny movement (aka "box barrages/curtain barrages").
The other thing that always irked me was the way "Tank Shock" is purely based on unit type, rather than relative size of models being displaced. A Rhino can push a Riptide out of the way, but a Land Raider comes to a halt when it rams a Warbuggy. Having Tank Shocking/Ramming being a "displace the model based on relative unit sizes" would be cute, especially if it let you do stuff like having Bullgryns "block" movement corridors (ala mobile Tank Traps), etc.
Finally, "Power Attacks" for Dreadnoughts/MCs. I like the idea of being able to throw enemy vehicles around!
Dioxalyn wrote: I think turns should be based off of your units initiative, higher initiative units and fast vehicles move first, then move down the line until you get to Initiative 1 units/models. Same way for the Shooting/Assault phase. Higher Initiative units get to shoot/melee first.
This eliminates the alpha strikes, the 1 turn and half your army is gone games, allows you to both play and react a lot more, providing more strategy and tactics, and makes sense IMO, higher initiative = better agility and quick thinking.
Except that initiative is generally race dependent, ie all Necrons are 2, all guardsmen are 3, SM 4, eldar 4-5, ect. So all your suggestion would do is guarantee that eldar always get the alpha strike, and that tau and necrons always go second.
Additionally high initiative has nothing to do with any sort of reaction time, metal acuity, or quick thinking ability. It is completely arbitrary. As an example, basically every source for Necron lords in combat is, either are not specific enough to extrapolate their reaction speed, or they are on par OR FASTER than space marines, and the Necron codex flat out states becoming Necrons made them think faster, yet they aren't even as fast as guardsmen on the table top. /rant
NL_Cirrus wrote: Except that initiative is generally race dependent, ie all Necrons are 2, all guardsmen are 3, SM 4, eldar 4-5, ect. So all your suggestion would do is guarantee that eldar always get the alpha strike, and that tau and necrons always go second.
Additionally high initiative has nothing to do with any sort of reaction time, metal acuity, or quick thinking ability. It is completely arbitrary. As an example, basically every source for Necron lords in combat is, either are not specific enough to extrapolate their reaction speed, or they are on par OR FASTER than space marines, and the Necron codex flat out states becoming Necrons made them think faster, yet they aren't even as fast as guardsmen on the table top. /rant
This is quite valid... maybe the alternating phases is really the best way to do it then. I was going to say choosing which unit you want to act first in a kind of you-go, I-go that I saw in, I think, WHFB melee phase, but that would just end up as a complicated mess.
That said, to be fair, if the initiative thing was added, I would expect some changes to be enacted first to make it a little less wierd.
Also, I saw it somewhere, and I agree so hard with purchasing psychic powers. Bring that back! Less random, more actual freaking tactical choices, please! What we have now is an absolute mess (and why I am making a specific model for Bel-Annanth - standard psychic powers? Why, yes please!).
Charge d6 + initiative value would be pretty cool, obviously some previsions would need to be made for orks but otherwise that would be a bit interesting.
Being able to bombard my enemy from all directions with my imperial guard mortar teams, deep strike some termies in and then land assault marines on the edges. Wait that is incredibly OP
True Swarm Tactics - not in a "It'll fix the army" sort of way, cause I've been so deep in the hobby and away from the meta for so long, but I always wished I could somehow clog the treads of vehicles with Tyranid guants. Like, just truly take down a superior foe with numbers, even if it means "number of bodies".
sense to me. If you make the roll, you should be able to move that distance if you want.
