106281
Post by: Inaphyt
To me this seems like a ginormous problem in general with 40k in that from the position of the imperium there's actually no threat at all. Allow me to elaborate.
The imperium control the majority of the galaxy or to be fair their region of the galaxy in a sphere around the astronomicon, who are the greatest threats to mankind? The orks? said to be more numerous
than any of the other races possibly combined? it's well known that they unless united pose no threat at all and i'd like to postulate further that even during a waaagh humanity can easily compete even
at the height of their power for numerous reasons more organised armies, planets dedicated to certain functions e.g producing titans or producing battleships or agriculture, unlike the orks who are disorganised and therefore easy to manage, the orks are controlled by simply removing the chieftain with an assassin which is an easy control mechanism therefore the orks are nothing more than a nuisance. This is the race that poses the greatest threat to humanity just bare that in mind. If humanity wanted they could obliterate them out of existence.
Next we have the Tau although more than capable at fighting on an even footing with humanity the numbers are much too heavily one sided they are literally not a threat at all in my opinion they barely qualify as a "major" race one glance at the galaxy map and you have to squint in order to make out their location. If humanity wanted they could obliterate them out of existence.
Chaos could be considered the greatest threat to humanity as it's omnipresent and dependent on emotions and i'm unsure as to if it's possible to wipe them out of existence however i think across all the millions of systems humanity controls one bright spark can develop a means to infiltrate the eye of terror and from that point - If humanity wanted they could obliterate them out of existence.
The tyranids? Although they potentially could outnumber every sentient being in the galaxy based on the evidence they have a handful of fleets and although a threat to a few worlds especially if left unchecked - If humanity wanted they could obliterate them out of existence.
The eldar? Same story as the tau they could not hope to stand against humanity, and as for the dark eldar if humanity ever found a way to enter the webgates they would be annihilated.
The necrons call me a newb at lore but they don't appear to care about conquering the galaxy or approaching terra even if they are superior to the armies of humanity and even so my inclination is that if humanity wanted they could find all their tomb worlds in vast organised numbers and obliterate them out of existence.
In my opinion the only threat to humanity is if the tau use their mind control devices on the orks and some sort of psuedo alliance is formed so you have the organised leadership of highly sophisticated strategists controlling the vast numbers of the orks at that moment imperium finds it's first threat, beyond that nothing short of an alliance out of necessity between all races in the galaxy (including the necrons and tyranids) could hope to stand against humanity and even then humanity could come out on top.
Based on all that is said in the new lore i hear is being proposed what i suggest is that this needs to completely change without affecting all of the current races new races that actually are a threat need to exist in the unexplored regions of the galaxy races with comparable empires in size races that actually pose a threat because at the moment the only threat in the galaxy is humanity and there is nobody to oppose them.
Interested in your thoughts thanks.
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Post by: Brujah
Nice text thank you but I do not agree especially on the tyranids. In lore it was made pretty clear that to stop tyranid swarms very heavy casualties were taken into account and that it was by far no easy task. Their disturbance of warp even disables space-travel / communication in their proximity. Therefore I dont think they can just be obliterated.
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Post by: Backspacehacker
Few problems that need to be pointed out
Orks: Are a very large threat because they can never be fully killed, and when a WAGH is declared gak gets really really, the largest wagh was that of armagedon and it took the steel legion, the inquisition, blood anagels, ultra smerfs, and salamanders ALONG WITH a titan legion to stop it, all on a world that could pump out weapons of war like nothing.
The other problem you are not taking into account is that if the IoM loses a forgeworld, its a massive lose because they cant just start making those items on another planet because they have no idea how to build the production facilities. So if the shop that makes baneblades goes up, and thats the last place that can produce them, thats it, baneblades are gone forever or until the Big E comes back. So orks are a massive threat because they hit hard and fast with out warning of any kind.
Tau, eh, not a threat, but really cant be taken as they have far better tech then the IoM they could blast them outta the sky if they tried to invade.
Nids are the biggest threat as we have only seen a very VERY small portion of their main hive fleet. Very little is know about them.
Eldar are a fleeting threat.
Necrons if they ever get off their ass and do something could destroy most of the galaxy . To give you an example, the necrons were so close to destroying the galaxy that the old ones had to make the orks to deal with them, problem right now, they keep hitting snooze and dont get up.
So say there is no real threat to the IoM is wrong to say the least.
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Post by: lonestarr777
Your fanboy is showing. 
First and formst no one uses the words 'controlled' and 'Orks' in the same sentence. An Ork Waaagh is incredibely devestating when it picks up steam. Just look at Armageddon. Gazzy got bored and wandered off and still the planet is a meca for rampaging greenskins so just removing the chieftan won't always stop a Waagh dead in its tracks. Its the unpredictable nature of the Ork that makes them unmanagable, the only thing known for certian is that their hyper violent.
The Tau are young yes and own only a small piece of the galaxy but what they lack in number they make up for in incredible technology. Advanced warsuits and tactics that can leave the imperium with a bloody nose when they attempt to simply crush them with their dead. Even titans fear their aircraft armed with massive railcannons that nimbly dart out of the clouds to cleave cockpits intwain.
Chaos, its laughable to dare suggest it could be destroyed. Only if you could stop every sentient who ever existed and will exist from expeirencing emotion could you starve the gods of chaos. And men will always seek easy power.
Tyranids, the bulk of thier fleets have not yet even arrived. Stopping a single hive is incredibly costly, requiring the sacrifice of ships and worlds that cannot be spared. They are pyric victories, each one hollow and empty as more hives emerge from the cold void.
The Eldar, do you really think you can exterimate a race that is not only five step but five years ahead of you? They have been manipulating time and events in our history for as long as we have existed, steering us into costly bloody wars with orks, tyranids and even ourselves.
Their dark kin are no easier targets. They have tools and toys from before the collapse of their empire ontop of their kins long life and cunning deceptions, their pit in the webway is a deathtrap for the unwary and the prepared.
The necrons, slowly awakening from slumber once rivaled the Eldar in ruling the galaxy and they intend to return to that sea of dominance. They weild technology that can turn off the stars themselves and they have broken their own gods to fuel engines of war.
Now, one of these threats alone is dangerous enough to humanity. But they are not staggered foes, faced one by one, the Imperium is beset by all these foes at once. Worse, the beuracracy of the empire keeps it from focusing on a single threat nor can can it afford to. The Imperium is a whale, surrounded by sharks taking bites from all sides.
Perhaps now you see things a little clearer. 
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Post by: locarno24
in that from the position of the imperium there's actually no threat at all.
In a sense of "the Imperium collapsing by this time next year", I'd agree. Even if the Imperium started losing on every front, it would take centuries for every last vestige of the Imperium to be wiped out. It took centuries to conquer it in the first place, after all.
That's not the same as 'not under threat', though, because it is losing ground, continuously, on a lot of fronts, and if it keeps losing a system here, a company there, a ship elsewhere, eventually there will be no more ships and marines and worlds. And with the 'big battles' occurring more and more often, huge chunks are being taken out of the Imperium at once.
The Imperium always 'wants to obliterate xenos from existance' - the fact that they haven't implies they haven't been able to.
Yes orks are - by and large - not organised as a galactic force, but then neither (to be honest) is the Imperium. And the Orks are organised at a lower level. Ork Waaaggh! regularly overrun worlds and even subsectors. Yes, trying to keep them contained by killing off budding major warbosses is a feasible tactic (the Ultramarines did this for centuries to keep Chardon destabilized) but whilst it stops, say, one warboss being able to mobilize the entirety of the Empire of Charadon, it doesn't stop smaller, world-threatening mobs still turning up. Equally, when dealing with larger Waaaggh!, it's not that reliable a plan. "Just Assassinate Ghazgkhulll Mag Uruk Thraka" is easy to say but bloody hard to do, given his track record.
I would agree that the Tau are not a threat. They, more than anyone, are a minor race and only survive fundamentally because the Imperium has umpty-ump more pressing concerns, so their generally better-than-common-imperial-issue tech gives them the edge over what they actually have to face.
Chaos - anyone can 'infiltrate the Eye of Terror' - no special tech or abilities are required (an Ork Waaagh! already did it, for example) - the problem is: and do what? Within the Eye, reality is what the chaos gods and their servants say it is, so what you achieve is corruption and insanity.
There are probably not that many fewer traitor humans and astartes within the eye (see, for example, Talon of Horus) as there are Loyalists outside it. There have been multiple cases of Imperial forces entering the Eye and the result has yet to go well.
The Tyranids......we've no idea. But again, given that Humanity has been on a fighting retreat from Hive Fleet Kraken, plus has lost numerous not-in-any-way minor systems (such as a titan legion-hosting forge world) to Hibe Fleet Leviathan, I question again the 'obliterate them' option.
Eldar - I concur with the Dark Eldar view; if the Imperium could attack Commoragh en masse they could destroy it, given the damage a single chapter fleet did to the old Commorite hierarchy. But managing that is not going to be easy. The craftworlders - the problem is that anything that can catch them, can't beat them in a fight, and vice-versa.
Necrons - the Eldar Empire (pre-fall) have spent many tens of thousands of years trying to hunt down and destroy the necron tomb worlds and never managed it. The Imperium has less numbers and weaker technology.
Ultimately, yes, humanity could probably cope with any one other race. It's the fact that it's trying to hold its ground against all of them that's the problem; there's no formal 'alliance', but simply the fact that all of them are ultimately inimical to mankind, so it has to fight the lot of them.
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Post by: Deadshot
Inaphyt wrote:To me this seems like a ginormous problem in general with 40k in that from the position of the imperium there's actually no threat at all. Allow me to elaborate.
The imperium control the majority of the galaxy or to be fair their region of the galaxy in a sphere around the astronomicon, who are the greatest threats to mankind? The orks? said to be more numerous
than any of the other races possibly combined? it's well known that they unless united pose no threat at all and i'd like to postulate further that even during a waaagh humanity can easily compete even
at the height of their power for numerous reasons more organised armies, planets dedicated to certain functions e.g producing titans or producing battleships or agriculture, unlike the orks who are disorganised and therefore easy to manage, the orks are controlled by simply removing the chieftain with an assassin which is an easy control mechanism therefore the orks are nothing more than a nuisance. This is the race that poses the greatest threat to humanity just bare that in mind. If humanity wanted they could obliterate them out of existence.
Next we have the Tau although more than capable at fighting on an even footing with humanity the numbers are much too heavily one sided they are literally not a threat at all in my opinion they barely qualify as a "major" race one glance at the galaxy map and you have to squint in order to make out their location. If humanity wanted they could obliterate them out of existence.
Chaos could be considered the greatest threat to humanity as it's omnipresent and dependent on emotions and i'm unsure as to if it's possible to wipe them out of existence however i think across all the millions of systems humanity controls one bright spark can develop a means to infiltrate the eye of terror and from that point - If humanity wanted they could obliterate them out of existence.
The tyranids? Although they potentially could outnumber every sentient being in the galaxy based on the evidence they have a handful of fleets and although a threat to a few worlds especially if left unchecked - If humanity wanted they could obliterate them out of existence.
The eldar? Same story as the tau they could not hope to stand against humanity, and as for the dark eldar if humanity ever found a way to enter the webgates they would be annihilated.
The necrons call me a newb at lore but they don't appear to care about conquering the galaxy or approaching terra even if they are superior to the armies of humanity and even so my inclination is that if humanity wanted they could find all their tomb worlds in vast organised numbers and obliterate them out of existence.
In my opinion the only threat to humanity is if the tau use their mind control devices on the orks and some sort of psuedo alliance is formed so you have the organised leadership of highly sophisticated strategists controlling the vast numbers of the orks at that moment imperium finds it's first threat, beyond that nothing short of an alliance out of necessity between all races in the galaxy (including the necrons and tyranids) could hope to stand against humanity and even then humanity could come out on top.
Based on all that is said in the new lore i hear is being proposed what i suggest is that this needs to completely change without affecting all of the current races new races that actually are a threat need to exist in the unexplored regions of the galaxy races with comparable empires in size races that actually pose a threat because at the moment the only threat in the galaxy is humanity and there is nobody to oppose them.
Interested in your thoughts thanks.
Ok, let's address this bit by bit...
Orks: They outnumber the Imperium 2:1 and are currently not united. However, during a Waaagh! they do unite at a certain level. Now, the things with Orks is that they are exponential. Their personal power grows exponentially with every battle they win, a Waaagh! grows with every victory as more Orks join the cause, their numbers swell as they fight to their reproduction cycle. Ie, the more they win, the more they will continue to win. They are like a weed that needs to be nipped in the bud before it can sprout. A small ork force is easily crushed and won't do much damage, but after crushing 1 system it will double in size, after 4 systems it'll be 20 times its original size and with wierder and more destructive weaponry and much harder to defeat. The more it wins, the harder it is to defeat. Therefore the Imperium has to respond to each threat as early as possible and wipe it out. Mostly this happens as a glorious campaign but sometimes you get stuff like The Beast and Armageddon.
Tau: Occupy a small area of space NOW, and aren't really a threat, but they offer a "nicer" future than the Imperium which prioritises the needs of the whole over the individual. That means the Imperium will gladly sacrifice a couple billion to work themselves into their graves to their forces can keep fighting and keep the Imperium alive. The Tau offer an "escape" for those but also mixing with Xenos is dangerous. When you start having other species weighing in on decisions it means humanity are not longer top dog and their needs are not guarenteed. Its like having the family dog weighing in on dinner plans, you'll not have many veggies at dinner. Their momentum and technology also makes them a threat.
CWE: Have weapons of Exterminatus level power, can go anywhere in the galaxy with ease, can see the future.
Deldar: Their city is the size of a moon, undying due to cloning (so can hold a grudge), much superior tech and physical ability, actually enjoying hurting humans
Necrons: currently divided over goals but their technology outstrips the other races combined, their fleet-based combat ability is unmatched. If they united with a single objective they'd steam roll everyone.
Chaos: The Great Enemy, AKA the enemy within. Why are they the greatest threat? Because the only way to ensure stupid, selfish humans don't feth it up for everyone by turning to Chaos is to ensure they don't have enough autonomy to do so, which ends up pushing people towards that Chaos as they resist. It can't be permanently beaten as the Chaos Gods are immortal so long as sentient creatures inhabit the galaxy. They have Space Marines of their own and can turn those space marines into 12ft tall immortal daemons at a whim.
Tyranids: Outnumber the rest of the galaxy 12:1, and that's only the opening vanguard of their fleet. Behemoth, the smallest and weakest fleet with bumrush tactics, nearly wiped out the Ultramarines on their home turf and would have done but for blind luck. They cut out communications, have virtually unlimited resources, disrupt Daemonic ties, adapt faster than Tau, can adapt to expressly kill Orks, outnumber Eldar 50:1. Each time they have been beaten only after they completely decimate dozens upon dozens of worlds and usually only beaten due to a singular hero prevailing against all odds, or by sheer luck and timing (Behemoth due to other fleet showing up at precisely right moment. Kraken because it was split between the Imperium and Eldar and Yriel showed up at the right momet, Gorgon because the Imperial Guard showed up at the exact right time, Leviathan hasn't been yet at all). They don't even conquer planets, they annihilate them beyond use, they adapt faster than you can kill them and they replenish their troops from bodies of the dead, yours and theirs. The key words here are AGAINST ALL ODDS. As in, Tyranids are designed to be the ultimate enemy, unbeatable in the long term. Like a swarm of locusts versus crops where the IMperium are the crops. You can chase them off twice, use spray repellent, pesticides, but eventually they'll come back, bigger, unafraid of humans, too tough for repellent and immune to pesticides and feast on the crops until its bare.
Alone, the Imperium could face any one of these threats head on and maybe win, maybe even against Chaos and the Tyranids, but trying to tackle all these. Its trying to juggle a time bomb, a grenade, a bucket of lava and a battle axe while also trying to beat a swarm of locusts off your crops and stop your children running with scissors and also your shoes are on fire and one of your brothers is trying to pour liquid nitrogen down your underwear.
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Post by: Gobbla
The Imperium once almost conquered the Galaxy. It was all powerful, and unified in purpose. Then, the Heresy. Since then, the Imperium has eternal internal problems that have eroded its strength, technology, and unification. External threats have multiplied to the point they cannot be addressed one at a time. Like fighting a hydra. Hence, "there is only war." To consider one foe at a time is not to consider all foes at once. Yes, each enemy is vulnerable, they could maybe be defeated singularly, some at more cost than the others. But, they can't be fought that way. If not held in check, each could do great damage. Although, what we know about the Tyranids would seem to be that they are unstoppable.
At the end of the day, the greatest threat to the 40K universe is the people writing the current lore. This End Times stuff has me worried. I fear the 40K Universe will be blown up by some Deus ex Machina, and we will be left with Realm Gates.
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Post by: Mr Nobody
Another factor to take into account is that the Imperium is facing all these enemies simultaneously. Yes, perhaps the Imperium could wipe out any of their enemies if they could bring their full might to bear, but they cannot. The Tau are a great example of this. They are very small and a large enough force could easily overwhelm them, but the Imperium has been unable to muster the proper forces because they are needed to fight the encroaching Tyranid swarms nearby.
The Imperium is vast but slow, being taken apart by a thousand cuts on a billion different battlefields.
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Post by: Inaphyt
The orks although very devastating during a waaagh still lost to humanity and look at humanity today did it make the remotest impact? This further raises the point that even during the orks most destructive and powerful stage of waaagh they lost against humanity so their present state could be considered a trivial threat like the tau, another point to raise about the orks is that their technology never develops as it's all encoded and to my understanding although IOM isn't at the level of it's golden age it still does develop it's tech which makes the next waaagh easier to overcome. Further at any point during a waaagh there is the ever present risk that the waaagh will simply break down due to internal power struggles as it attracts orks some of them comparably strong to the current leader every passing second of a waaagh it's possible for it to breakdown into civil wars.
I disagree with people overhyping the tau to my knowledge the tau are actually less technologically advanced than the IOM it's the fact that their technological level is advancing much quicker than humanity rather than them having a tech advantage it wouldn't make sense thematically them being the younger race however their growth is the scary thing whereas humanity is stagnating that was my understanding anyway.
When it comes to chaos in warhammer history gods have been killed before and is some cases used to fuel war machines i wouldn't be so sure that chaos can't be defeated and the race with the most resources? numbers? scientists? humanity, let's rephrase the question rather than can humanity obliterate chaos? of all the races in warhammer 40k who stands the best chance of developing a means to kill a chaos god? The eldar perhaps? they even have a vested interest in doing so but they haven't done so thus far, The orks likely aren't interested in such a venture. My money is on > humanity
As for the tyranids at great loss to the empire sure but nevertheless defeated by human hands if i'm not mistaken several times a great loss the empire what ? a pitiful army 0.1% the size of total war machine? maybe even less.
The eldar was an interesting point humanity simply can't catch them i don't have a realistic answer to that if they play their cards right and simply flee forever and take fights where the IOM is not they could be a nuisance sure but what about their static worlds? If the empire showed up there there would be no defence but obliteration and i imagine at some point the eldar have to dock? maybe i'm wrong.
The last point is that it is true that the empire is engaged with multiple zenos on multiple fronts but that's also true of every other race for example the tau lost multiple worlds to the tyranids and fought the orks in defence of the kroot to any other race in the galaxy it's the same story for them as for humanity except they aren't a gargantuan predator with sick amounts of numbers and resources. I think we can all agree with that?
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Post by: Robin5t
The mere fact that the Imperium would completely collapse if it lost the Sol system means that the Necrons can literally destroy it whenever they like with the equivalent of pressing a button as long as the Celestial Orrery exists, so... might want to revise that threat rating just a tad.
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Post by: Backspacehacker
Inaphyt wrote:The orks although very devastating during a waaagh still lost to humanity and look at humanity today did it make the remotest impact? This further raises the point that even during the orks most destructive and powerful stage of waaagh they lost against humanity so their present state could be considered a trivial threat like the tau, another point to raise about the orks is that their technology never develops as it's all encoded and to my understanding although IOM isn't at the level of it's golden age it still does develop it's tech which makes the next waaagh easier to overcome. Further at any point during a waaagh there is the ever present risk that the waaagh will simply break down due to internal power struggles as it attracts orks some of them comparably strong to the current leader every passing second of a waaagh it's possible for it to breakdown into civil wars. I disagree with people overhyping the tau to my knowledge the tau are actually less technologically advanced than the IOM it's the fact that their technological level is advancing much quicker than humanity rather than them having a tech advantage it wouldn't make sense thematically them being the younger race however their growth is the scary thing whereas humanity is stagnating that was my understanding anyway. When it comes to chaos in warhammer history gods have been killed before and is some cases used to fuel war machines i wouldn't be so sure that chaos can't be defeated and the race with the most resources? numbers? scientists? humanity, let's rephrase the question rather than can humanity obliterate chaos? of all the races in warhammer 40k who stands the best chance of developing a means to kill a chaos god? The eldar perhaps? they even have a vested interest in doing so but they haven't done so thus far, The orks likely aren't interested in such a venture. My money is on > humanity As for the tyranids at great loss to the empire sure but nevertheless defeated by human hands if i'm not mistaken several times a great loss the empire what ? a pitiful army 0.1% the size of total war machine? maybe even less. The eldar was an interesting point humanity simply can't catch them i don't have a realistic answer to that if they play their cards right and simply flee forever and take fights where the IOM is not they could be a nuisance sure but what about their static worlds? If the empire showed up there there would be no defence but obliteration and i imagine at some point the eldar have to dock? maybe i'm wrong. The last point is that it is true that the empire is engaged with multiple zenos on multiple fronts but that's also true of every other race for example the tau lost multiple worlds to the tyranids and fought the orks in defence of the kroot to any other race in the galaxy it's the same story for them as for humanity except they aren't a gargantuan predator with sick amounts of numbers and resources. I think we can all agree with that?
Ok your just trolling at this point. Whats their impact of humanity? Oh not much just ravaging hive world after hive world, killing BILLIONS of humans and never faltering in numbers, looting and destorying valuable production facilities. This is not meant as an insult, so dont take it as such, but im guessing you dont know much 40k lore do you? You could argue the orks actually have the most advanced tech in the universe. All of the orks weaponry is powered by group think, their weapons in the hand of a human wont work, the only reason their guns fire and their tanks work is because they think it works. They are a phyker powered army. Another example is commisar yarrick who wields a power claw, no human could use it, but the orks think he can use it there for he does. They can loot any IoM weapon and as long as they honestly think they can use it, it works. NO Tau are FAR more advanced then the IoM by a long shot, they just dont have the over reaching architecture the IoM does. again no, the strongest god in 40k is actually the ork gods gork and mork, they can dance circles around Khorne with out any problems. Another thing is you dont seem to understand how the Chaos gods came to being, they are not some force you can kill they are the manifestation of emotions in the warp. Khorne is hate violance, murder, and anger. Nurgal is rot, sickness, vile thoughts. Tzench is knowlege, power, secrets and lies. Slenesh is pain pleasure and lust. As long as these things exist, so do the gods of chaos, so chaos cant be killed. How ever, Gork and Mork can punch Khorne in the face an dethrone him as the god of it. Again this is not an insult, but i really think you need to look up your 40k lore a bit more.
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Post by: TheCustomLime
The whole thing about the Hive Fleets we've seen so far just being the Vanguard is not actually confirmed as fact, yes? It's just what some Inquisitors believe.
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Post by: Robin5t
I'll also point out that the idea of Orks not being a threat is laughable when you consider the utter curb-stomping The Beast gave the Imperium.
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Post by: Backspacehacker
 Robin5t wrote:I'll also point out that the idea of Orks not being a threat is laughable when you consider the utter curb-stomping The Beast gave the Imperium.
And considering the only way to get rid of them is to exterminatus the whole planet they land on to keep them from growing.
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Post by: TheCustomLime
 Backspacehacker wrote: Robin5t wrote:I'll also point out that the idea of Orks not being a threat is laughable when you consider the utter curb-stomping The Beast gave the Imperium.
And considering the only way to get rid of them is to exterminatus the whole planet they land on to keep them from growing.
Not true. If the infestation is minor you can get rid of them with flamers.
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Post by: Backspacehacker
 TheCustomLime wrote: Backspacehacker wrote: Robin5t wrote:I'll also point out that the idea of Orks not being a threat is laughable when you consider the utter curb-stomping The Beast gave the Imperium.
And considering the only way to get rid of them is to exterminatus the whole planet they land on to keep them from growing.
Not true. If the infestation is minor you can get rid of them with flamers.
Ture ture, but you know those pesky orks 
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Post by: lonestarr777
You really need to sit down and spend more time reading the fluff. Its very clear youre equating modern humanity with 40k humanity and that just isnt how it works.
You don't have a grasp of the beauracratic machine the imperium is, the stagnation of science, that technology is now dark magic. Youre also far too convinced of the imperiums superiority. If the empire was as monolithic as you believe then there would be no 40k.
Defeating the chaos gods with science, bah, you have much to learn. Perhaps you should look up the Dark Mechanicum and see how the chaos gods treat science.
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Post by: StygianBeach
You are correct, there is no real threat to the Imperium. That is the point.
Just like East Asia, Oceania or Eurasia could never actually defeat one another (1984).
'War without end' and 'annihilation around every corner' justifies the Totalitarian, stagnant, bloated, dogmatic reign of the bureaucracy of the Imperium.
Fear rules this universe, and fear is hard currency.
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Post by: hybridmoments82
Inaphyt wrote:The orks although very devastating during a waaagh still lost to humanity and look at humanity today did it make the remotest impact?
You should probably ask a Crimson Fist, preferably one of the survivors of the Rynn's world attacks.
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Post by: CadianGateTroll
The problem is that newbies read a few books and they think theh know everything. What they dont know is the long history of erratas or re writes and erase of lore such as how necrons were mindless robots with 10101010 but were rewritten to have complex human personalities. Such as the Squats, such as how Dark Angels were Native American with all the feathers. How the Salamanders where actually black as in african not burnt charcoal. So much junk gets rewritten it gets more confusing than the Marvel/DC universe.
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Post by: Iron_Captain
The OP demonstrates a poor knowledge of 40k lore.
Chaos is a massive threat, that coming from within, can strike anywhere and anytime. All it takes is a few moments of laxness and whole sectors of Imperial space are lost forever. Invading the Eye of Terror would be pointless. Firstly because you would surely be driven mad by the warping insanity of Chaos. Secondly because even if you conquer all of the Daemon worlds located in the Eye, it would not really affect the power of Chaos. The only way to ever defeat Chaos would be to invade the Warp and kill the Chaos Gods, which is impossible because they are well... gods.
The Tyranids are a massive threat already. Significant portions of the Imperium's border territories have already been overrun, and so far stopping Tyranid Hive Fleets has proven virtually impossible. And the currently invading Hive Fleets are only a scouting force for the actual invasion fleet that is still lurking beyond the galactic borders...
About the Necrons you are completely wrong. They are very much interested in reclaiming their former territories (that is, the entire galaxy) and once they wake up, with their huge numbers and incredible technology far outmatching humanity, they'd be able to destroy the Imperium in a heartbeat.
The Eldar may not appear much of a threat at first glance because of their low numbers, but they are Eldar. They are ancient and have great arcane powers. You can bet they are hatching some kind of sly, devious plot using ancient secrets or arcane powers. Probably one that will threaten the entire human race just for some dubious Eldar benefit.
The Tau are not a threat in any way, no, but that is not their point. The point of the Tau is that they are the naive, reasonable guys in an unreasonable universe that is filled with all kinds of huge and insane threats and things they can barely comprehend.
And while usually just a local threat, the Orks definitely can develop into an existential threat to the Imperium. Just read the War of the Beast series.
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Post by: Sgt_Smudge
 CadianGateTroll wrote:The problem is that newbies read a few books and they think theh know everything. What they dont know is the long history of erratas or re writes and erase of lore such as how necrons were mindless robots with 10101010 but were rewritten to have complex human personalities. Such as the Squats, such as how Dark Angels were Native American with all the feathers. How the Salamanders where actually black as in african not burnt charcoal. So much junk gets rewritten it gets more confusing than the Marvel/ DC universe.
To be fair, I don't see how having a knowledge of something that's been rewritten in the canon matters to this. It's about current lore, not going back to Illiyian Nastase or Squats.
Either way, I disagree with OP for all the above reasons by other posters.
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Post by: CadianGateTroll
Understanding why something is rewritten tells us more about the true problem with the lore.
Reading only the current lore is like only accepting American History of the past 240 years and ignoring the Native American History.
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Post by: Sgt_Smudge
CadianGateTroll wrote:Understanding why something is rewritten tells us more about the true problem with the lore.
Reading only the current lore is like only accepting American History of the past 240 years and ignoring the Native American History.
I don't follow that analogy?
With RL, history actually does have an impact, as history is set and permanent. Native history still exists and is relevant.
With a fictional setting, history and canon can be rewritten. If Squats existed before, and now never exist in the lore, how can Squats mean anything? They've been deleted, removed, and cannot have any impact on the actual setting as it is.
With RL, the past remains. With fiction, the past can be made irrelevant and removed.
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Post by: StygianBeach
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
With RL, the past remains. With fiction, the past can be made irrelevant and removed.
If only this were true... :(
Seems quite relevant when discussing 40K lore.
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Post by: locarno24
The orks although very devastating during a waaagh still lost to humanity and look at humanity today did it make the remotest impact?
In terms of named worlds permenantly lost to or overrun by orks? (such as Golgotha, Armageddon, Tigrus, Kastorel-Novem)
Chapters functionally wiped out and forced to reconstitute from scratch - with a cost to the Imperium equivalent to founding a new chapter? (Crimson Fists, Imperial Fists)
This further raises the point that even during the orks most destructive and powerful stage of waaagh they lost against humanity so their present state could be considered a trivial threat like the tau,
Except humanity isn't anywhere near the potential it had at that point either. Yes, the Great Crusade broke the Orks at Ullanor, but the 'modern day' Imperium wouldn't have a chance of repeating the feat.
another point to raise about the orks is that their technology never develops as it's all encoded and to my understanding although IOM isn't at the level of it's golden age it still does develop it's tech which makes the next waaagh easier to overcome.
Untrue. Orks do innovate - if anything more often than humans. Their technical aptitude is hard-coded, not the design of every last possible device. Recent examples of innovation - Orkimedes developing the 'tellyporta' on Piscina and subsequently Armageddon (to the point of teleporting Gargants!) and the Psi-amplifiers invented by wierdboyz in Deathwatch and Baneblade, both of which were completely new to the Imperium (and the orks)
Further at any point during a waaagh there is the ever present risk that the waaagh will simply break down due to internal power struggles as it attracts orks some of them comparably strong to the current leader every passing second of a waaagh it's possible for it to breakdown into civil wars.
Now that is true. But generally once a Waaaggh! gets going the leadership is more or less fixed as Da Boss will increase in size and strength to match the scale of his forces....
I disagree with people overhyping the tau to my knowledge the tau are actually less technologically advanced than the IOM it's the fact that their technological level is advancing much quicker than humanity rather than them having a tech advantage it wouldn't make sense thematically them being the younger race however their growth is the scary thing whereas humanity is stagnating that was my understanding anyway.
That much is true. Tau technology is not 'better than Imperial'. It's better than common imperial - the stuff the guard get - but still behind the better imperial stuff - the sort of things the mechanicus, inquisition and astartes use. Man-sized armour providing a 2+ save, teleporters, pistols which can take out battle tanks, etc, etc.
When it comes to chaos in warhammer history gods have been killed before and is some cases used to fuel war machines i wouldn't be so sure that chaos can't be defeated and the race with the most resources? numbers? scientists? humanity, let's rephrase the question rather than can humanity obliterate chaos? of all the races in warhammer 40k who stands the best chance of developing a means to kill a chaos god? The eldar perhaps? they even have a vested interest in doing so but they haven't done so thus far, The orks likely aren't interested in such a venture. My money is on > humanity
If anyone could? Yes. But they can't. Because kiilling a chaos god isn't like killing a C'tan - the C'tan are, ultimately, beings of our universe. Incredibly powerful, but ultimately subject to laws of physics that you can hope to understand. The Chaos gods aren't, and the only warp gods to be killed have been killed by other warp gods.
As for the tyranids at great loss to the empire sure but nevertheless defeated by human hands if i'm not mistaken several times a great loss the empire what ? a pitiful army 0.1% the size of total war machine? maybe even less.
Of the entire Imperia Military? probably. But the problem is that was first contact, and they keep coming - and the numbers encountered, and their tactical sophistication is going up, not down.
The eldar was an interesting point humanity simply can't catch them i don't have a realistic answer to that if they play their cards right and simply flee forever and take fights where the IOM is not they could be a nuisance sure but what about their static worlds? If the empire showed up there there would be no defence but obliteration and i imagine at some point the eldar have to dock? maybe i'm wrong.
A Craftword? No. It's self-sustaining, and if they need access to a world they needn't go to one physically near the craftword due to the webway.
The last point is that it is true that the empire is engaged with multiple zenos on multiple fronts but that's also true of every other race for example the tau lost multiple worlds to the tyranids and fought the orks in defence of the kroot to any other race in the galaxy it's the same story for them as for humanity except they aren't a gargantuan predator with sick amounts of numbers and resources. I think we can all agree with that?
Agreed. But the problem with being the single biggest empire is that you're the one everyone ends up fighting. The Tau have fought a hive fleet and orks, but neither have they encountered a hive fleet on the scale of behemoth or an ork invasion on the scale of Waaaggh! Ghazkhull. Because, unfortunately, the fact that the Imperium occupies so many worlds means that such threats invariably end up meeting an imperial world before hitting each other (except in rare occasions, usually when they're specifically directed at one another, as in the Kryptmann Gambit).
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Post by: TheCustomLime
CadianGateTroll wrote:Understanding why something is rewritten tells us more about the true problem with the lore.
Reading only the current lore is like only accepting American History of the past 240 years and ignoring the Native American History.
Uhh... No. This is wrong on so many levels. The old lore that has been retconned is no longer valid. Native American history is still valid. I don't quite understand why you made this analogy.
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Post by: Peregrine
 Iron_Captain wrote:The Tau are not a threat in any way, no, but that is not their point. The point of the Tau is that they are the naive, reasonable guys in an unreasonable universe that is filled with all kinds of huge and insane threats and things they can barely comprehend.
That's not the point of the Tau at all. The Tau have two jobs in the fluff of 40k:
1) To be symbolic of the countless young civilizations that are constantly rising up all over the galaxy. They don't share the Imperium's idiocy about technology, so while they might not be a civilization-ending threat to the Imperium yet in the long run Tau technology will continue to advance beyond the point where the Imperium has any chance at all. Small numbers won't matter so much when a single gun drone is capable of annihilating entire sectors worth of Imperial planets (such a trivial task would be delegated to a barely-sentient gun drone, the Tau themselves have better things to do). And if the Tau fail someone else will rise up to replace them. That's what the "kill off the Tau" people don't seem to get, if you get rid of them you just create a new faction of Tau-in-all-but-name.
2) To highlight the sheer grimdark of the setting. The Tau are not "good buys" by any reasonable definition of the concept. They're an aggressive expansionist empire that embodies the worst of real-world imperialism, manifest destiny, etc, and would be clearly evil in any other setting. They're only "good" in that they're pragmatic enough to use science and technology to build a better gun to kill you with, and to offer you a chance to surrender and accept slavery under their rule instead of mindlessly slaughtering everything in sight. And yet the Tau are the bright shining hope of the setting. As much as they suck life under anyone else is suffering on such an unimaginable scale that every citizen of the Imperium should pray for the opportunity to become Tau slaves. Automatically Appended Next Post: Inaphyt wrote:i think across all the millions of systems humanity controls one bright spark can develop a means to infiltrate the eye of terror and from that point - If humanity wanted they could obliterate them out of existence.
Hahahahahahahahahahah NO. You seem to be missing a rather important fact about the Imperium: innovation is heresy. That "one bright spark" would have very little hope of avoiding being possessed by a demon and slaughtering everything and everyone they loved (as they watch helplessly while the demon uses their body) before opening the literal gate to hell through which Things Mortals Cannot Know pour through into reality and turn whole planets into horrors so bad you will pray that death takes you first. And if they somehow managed to avoid this fate they would be executed for unspeakable heresy, then their families and everyone they ever met would be given honorable executions of their own to ensure that all memory of the "bright spark" and their blasphemous works is purged from the universe.
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Post by: tneva82
Inaphyt wrote:Chaos could be considered the greatest threat to humanity as it's omnipresent and dependent on emotions and i'm unsure as to if it's possible to wipe them out of existence however i think across all the millions of systems humanity controls one bright spark can develop a means to infiltrate the eye of terror and from that point - If humanity wanted they could obliterate them out of existence.
To get rid of chaos one would need to get rid of emotions. See humans(and other sentient life forms for that matter...) getting rid of emotions any time soon? Especially negative ones...
Anyway greatest threat could also be said Imperium itself. Or maybe rather inevitability. What goes up must come down. Either way IOM is going out of business eventually.
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Post by: Xathrodox86
Orks and Tyranids are the biggest threat, lore wise. They're nigh unstopabble forces of nature that are too big to contain, unless by taking a drastic solution (Kryptmann).
I don't believe that in the 41st millenium Chaos should be considered a viable threat. The Gods had their chance and screwed it. They've played their hand openly 10K years earlier and now the Imperium knows about them, while their chosen warriors are fewer in number than ever before, languishing in the Eye, with inferior gear, tech and numbers. As soon as the IoM closes the Eye for good (which is possible, I think) the only realt problem with Chaos will be an occasional mad prophet and maybe a daemonic incursion or two, from time to time.
Of course GW tries to up the street cred of Chaos at every possible occasion, but telling people that "this is not our 13th (another one, damn it!) Crusade, but the last battle blah blah blah" dosen't make the threat any bigger. Just like making Abaddon competent all of a sudden. Looking at you ADB.
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Post by: tneva82
 Xathrodox86 wrote:Orks and Tyranids are the biggest threat, lore wise. They're nigh unstopabble forces of nature that are too big to contain, unless by taking a drastic solution (Kryptmann).
I don't believe that in the 41st millenium Chaos should be considered a viable threat. The Gods had their chance and screwed it. They've played their hand openly 10K years earlier and now the Imperium knows about them, while their chosen warriors are fewer in number than ever before, languishing in the Eye, with inferior gear, tech and numbers. As soon as the IoM closes the Eye for good (which is possible, I think) the only realt problem with Chaos will be an occasional mad prophet and maybe a daemonic incursion or two, from time to time.
Of course GW tries to up the street cred of Chaos at every possible occasion, but telling people that "this is not our 13th (another one, damn it!) Crusade, but the last battle blah blah blah" dosen't make the threat any bigger. Just like making Abaddon competent all of a sudden. Looking at you ADB.
It's GW's writing. They have the chaos as biggest threat. Also you might say orks and tyranids are too big to contain but what about daemons then? They are INFINITE. You are fighting war you cannot win. No matter how many you kill it's never enough so at best it's infinite draw that doesn't change and since no change is impossibility...
And it's not even like chaos marines are biggest threat chaos has...
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Post by: Deadshot
Xathrodox86 wrote:Orks and Tyranids are the biggest threat, lore wise. They're nigh unstopabble forces of nature that are too big to contain, unless by taking a drastic solution (Kryptmann).
I don't believe that in the 41st millenium Chaos should be considered a viable threat. The Gods had their chance and screwed it. They've played their hand openly 10K years earlier and now the Imperium knows about them, while their chosen warriors are fewer in number than ever before, languishing in the Eye, with inferior gear, tech and numbers. As soon as the IoM closes the Eye for good (which is possible, I think) the only realt problem with Chaos will be an occasional mad prophet and maybe a daemonic incursion or two, from time to time.
Of course GW tries to up the street cred of Chaos at every possible occasion, but telling people that "this is not our 13th (another one, damn it!) Crusade, but the last battle blah blah blah" dosen't make the threat any bigger. Just like making Abaddon competent all of a sudden. Looking at you ADB.
Let me break this down about Chaos
A) They did not "have their chance and screwed it." The Heresy was a setup for 10k years of constant war, misery, diesease, change, desire, hate, slaughter, ambition, pure Chaos.
B) They abandoned Horus at the last minute because if he won he would install a new Order, they wanted Perpetual Chaos, they also didn't want Horus coming back to haunt them if he finally figured out he'd been duped.
C) They ARE NOT fewer in number than ever before. More and more Space Marines are defecting every year at an accelerating rate and in greater numbers, they are raiding geneseed to make new Chaos Marines, they are growing exponentially
D) Their gear is not inferior. Despite what the Codex shows by lack of variant gear, they have equal access to most new stuff, PLUS all the Daemonic wargear and whatever wierd and wacky destructive thing the Dark Mechanicum have dreamt up in an insanity fueled nightmare.
E) The warp is becoming ever more turbulant, and Daemonic incursions ACROSS THE GALAXY are increasing in both frequency and magnitude at an alarming rate. The GK are stretched thinner and thinner and exposure to Chaos is becoming a major issue ( BTW, the Imperium does not know aboout Chaos on the whole, they know they have traitors but not actual Daemons, that's a further issue entirely).
F) Closing the eye is not a possibility. The Eldar Empire was consumed by it and they don't have the means. The Necrons could but don't care or have access to the Eye because of conflict at Cadia. The Eye is like a angry cat trapped under a bedsheet slashing and clawing its way into reality. A cat several hundred light years huge. Its just not an option.
G) The 13th Black Crusade has been 10000 years and 12 other crusades in the making with all the strength of Chaos behind it, including the Daemon Lords and Daemon Primarchs, the full strength of the Black Legion and all the other Chaos Space Marine Legions and their innumerable legions of Daemonic allies. Just because the last global campaign finished in an Imperial Victory (as GW say), doesn't mean its not a threat. The Black Crusade is bigger than any Ork Waaagh in history, bigger than everything and anything the Imperium has ever faced except the Tyranids, and only then in numbers. Does the fact its Nmber 13, AND GW are completely unwilling to even touch that element of the fluff due to implications of either victory, not mean anything to you?
H) Abaddon has always been competant. He's been biding his time, unlike Horus who hurried to Terra and failed with a lightning raid. The First Crusade was to retrieve the Daemon Blade Drachn'yen so he becomes physically unstoppable. Other Crusades were aimed at taking out this key defence and that one, capturing Blackstone Fortresses, building Planetkiller, securing ties with the Daemon Primarchs and the Gods themselves, amassing his fortresses. The 12 Black Crusades were vanguards and testing the waters, this is the full might of Chaos thrown at an ever weakening Imperium. Its Chaos' A-Bomb to the Imperium's Hiroshima
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Post by: Inaphyt
I find it interesting that not a single person speculated on a new vast empire to rival humanity in size is this a bad idea? Or is it considered that too much of the galaxy has been explored already for a ginormous empire never before heard of to exist?
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Post by: Draco
 Deadshot wrote:
A) They did not "have their chance and screwed it." The Heresy was a setup for 10k years of constant war, misery, diesease, change, desire, hate, slaughter, ambition, pure Chaos.
B) They abandoned Horus at the last minute because if he won he would install a new Order, they wanted Perpetual Chaos, they also didn't want Horus coming back to haunt them if he finally figured out he'd been duped.
This is true. Chaos do not seek victory, only chaos and eternal war. But how after 13th crusade?
"Thirteen times shall the Traitor King go forth. In the End Times the iron fortress shall be cast down. Its walls breached and its Gate forced open. Those that dwell beyond shall spill through it. The air shall burn and the ground shall melt, The Daemon shall lie down with the machine, Brother shall slay brother with fire and sword. And the sky-wound shall pour its malice forth. The Eye shall stare unblinking at its prize, and the Traitor King shall cross the bridge of stars. He shall return to finish the Warmonger's red work, Upon holy soil shall the fate of man be decided."
— The Liber Malefact
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Post by: Zaku212
Inaphyt wrote:I find it interesting that not a single person speculated on a new vast empire to rival humanity in size is this a bad idea? Or is it considered that too much of the galaxy has been explored already for a ginormous empire never before heard of to exist?
The Lore is imperium-centric, mainly focused on parts of the galaxy that can see the astronomican. Outside of that sphere is the "mystery zone" where GW have amassed fethloads of different races and small plots that they have no intent of using as anything more than filler.
So unless something suddenly swoops in from the fringes(keeping in mind it'll have to out-do the imperium for plot armour) it won't be main-plot relevant (thus requiring model range so space marines can be better than them)
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Post by: Deadshot
Inaphyt wrote:I find it interesting that not a single person speculated on a new vast empire to rival humanity in size is this a bad idea? Or is it considered that too much of the galaxy has been explored already for a ginormous empire never before heard of to exist?
The Tau are the biggest active alien empire, and they are tiny. The Imperium controls basically the whole galaxy with the Orks control small chunks and Chaos a few scattered around various warp rifts, Tyranids are purely inavders and Eldar (who matter, ie, Craftworld) are nomadic, Deldar don't take territory, they have Commoragh.
The Necrons have massive territory but most of them are still inactive so its hard to exactly pin down their area.
But the fact is besides the Tau no one controls a notable fraction of space to be called an Empire or a threat to the Imperium because the Imperium has conquered and annihilated all the indigenous Xenos (barring Deathworlds like Catachan)
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Post by: StygianBeach
Inaphyt wrote:I find it interesting that not a single person speculated on a new vast empire to rival humanity in size is this a bad idea? Or is it considered that too much of the galaxy has been explored already for a ginormous empire never before heard of to exist?
What would be the point?
Chaos is already the 'red under the bed'.
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Post by: Iron_Captain
 Peregrine wrote: Iron_Captain wrote:The Tau are not a threat in any way, no, but that is not their point. The point of the Tau is that they are the naive, reasonable guys in an unreasonable universe that is filled with all kinds of huge and insane threats and things they can barely comprehend.
That's not the point of the Tau at all. The Tau have two jobs in the fluff of 40k:
1) To be symbolic of the countless young civilizations that are constantly rising up all over the galaxy. They don't share the Imperium's idiocy about technology, so while they might not be a civilization-ending threat to the Imperium yet in the long run Tau technology will continue to advance beyond the point where the Imperium has any chance at all. Small numbers won't matter so much when a single gun drone is capable of annihilating entire sectors worth of Imperial planets (such a trivial task would be delegated to a barely-sentient gun drone, the Tau themselves have better things to do). And if the Tau fail someone else will rise up to replace them. That's what the "kill off the Tau" people don't seem to get, if you get rid of them you just create a new faction of Tau-in-all-but-name.
That is nothing but pure speculation on your part. Nothing can grow infinitely, and as the Tau Empire grows larger and larger, it will eventually fall apart due to internal strife (the first signs of this are already showing with the Farsight Enclaves). And that is only if they do not get eaten by Tyranids first. The Tau won't be able to keep up their current pace of development. Just like the Eldar and Imperium before them, they will eventually stagnate and wither. And considering the sudden and quick pace at which the Tau evolved and at which they grow and live, their fall is likely to be just as sudden and quick, long before they are able to get to a sector-destroying gundrone level (which would indicate technology far more advanced than even the most advanced Necron tech, the idea of which is silly and ridiculous)
Peregrine wrote:2) To highlight the sheer grimdark of the setting. The Tau are not "good buys" by any reasonable definition of the concept. They're an aggressive expansionist empire that embodies the worst of real-world imperialism, manifest destiny, etc, and would be clearly evil in any other setting. They're only "good" in that they're pragmatic enough to use science and technology to build a better gun to kill you with, and to offer you a chance to surrender and accept slavery under their rule instead of mindlessly slaughtering everything in sight. And yet the Tau are the bright shining hope of the setting. As much as they suck life under anyone else is suffering on such an unimaginable scale that every citizen of the Imperium should pray for the opportunity to become Tau slaves.
Good and evil are relative terms. The 'goodness' of something is defined in relation to other, surrounding entities. And compared to the other factions in 40k, the Tau definitely classify as 'good'. Relatively good of course, but good is always relative.
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Post by: Robin5t
Deadshot wrote:
The Black Crusade is bigger than any Ork Waaagh in history,
Yo, the Great Beast called, he just wanted me to bring up that time he laid siege to the entire galaxy at once.
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Post by: Deadshot
Robin5t wrote: Deadshot wrote:
The Black Crusade is bigger than any Ork Waaagh in history,
Yo, the Great Beast called, he just wanted me to bring up that time he laid siege to the entire galaxy at once.
And the Chaos Gods are constantly laying siege to all the galaxy at once simulataeously on a dimensional and philosophical as well as a literal and war level. They have literally infinite legions of Daemons. There are more Daemons in the Warp than humans, Tyranids and Orks in the galaxy combined. If the Black Crusade's objective, which is to expand the Eye to encompass most if not all the galaxy which would allow those Daemons to run rampant as they please. The Great Beast had dectillions of Orks, but 10^33 is still a finite number.
100524
Post by: Robin5t
Deadshot wrote: Robin5t wrote: Deadshot wrote:
The Black Crusade is bigger than any Ork Waaagh in history,
Yo, the Great Beast called, he just wanted me to bring up that time he laid siege to the entire galaxy at once.
And the Chaos Gods are constantly laying siege to all the galaxy at once simulataeously on a dimensional and philosophical as well as a literal and war level. They have literally infinite legions of Daemons. There are more Daemons in the Warp than humans, Tyranids and Orks in the galaxy combined. If the Black Crusade's objective, which is to expand the Eye to encompass most if not all the galaxy which would allow those Daemons to run rampant as they please. The Great Beast had dectillions of Orks, but 10^33 is still a finite number.
And yet, they can't deploy infinite daemons, while the Beast could and did deploy all of his absurd numbers of Orks. Having infinite daemons is utterly meaningless if you can only bring them to bear in dribs and drabs. You could just as easily say they're up against infinite mortals because humans and orks can reproduce for all the good it's worth.
The Black Crusades get funnelled through a relatively small choke point and take a narrow route through the Imperium to whatever objective they're aiming for, facing hard resistance the entire way. The Beast? He hit basically everything in a relatively fresh Imperium at once and still rolled all the way into Terra like it was nothing. If the 13th Black Crusade can manage a strategic curbstomp of that scale, then I might start considering it to be on the Beast's level, but somehow I don't see that as being too likely.
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Post by: tneva82
Inaphyt wrote:I find it interesting that not a single person speculated on a new vast empire to rival humanity in size is this a bad idea? Or is it considered that too much of the galaxy has been explored already for a ginormous empire never before heard of to exist?
That plus there's too many factions already. What good would be faction in fluff only? If it's models that's less support for orks, chaos, tyranids, eldar etc.
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Post by: Tyran
IIRC, there even is a bit of fluff about two Ork empires north of the Eye of Terror who could easily stomp the Black Crusade, but they are to happy beating the crap of each other.
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Post by: Deadshot
Robin5t wrote: Deadshot wrote: Robin5t wrote: Deadshot wrote:
The Black Crusade is bigger than any Ork Waaagh in history,
Yo, the Great Beast called, he just wanted me to bring up that time he laid siege to the entire galaxy at once.
And the Chaos Gods are constantly laying siege to all the galaxy at once simulataeously on a dimensional and philosophical as well as a literal and war level. They have literally infinite legions of Daemons. There are more Daemons in the Warp than humans, Tyranids and Orks in the galaxy combined. If the Black Crusade's objective, which is to expand the Eye to encompass most if not all the galaxy which would allow those Daemons to run rampant as they please. The Great Beast had dectillions of Orks, but 10^33 is still a finite number.
And yet, they can't deploy infinite daemons, while the Beast could and did deploy all of his absurd numbers of Orks. Having infinite daemons is utterly meaningless if you can only bring them to bear in dribs and drabs. You could just as easily say they're up against infinite mortals because humans and orks can reproduce for all the good it's worth.
The Black Crusades get funnelled through a relatively small choke point and take a narrow route through the Imperium to whatever objective they're aiming for, facing hard resistance the entire way. The Beast? He hit basically everything in a relatively fresh Imperium at once and still rolled all the way into Terra like it was nothing. If the 13th Black Crusade can manage a strategic curbstomp of that scale, then I might start considering it to be on the Beast's level, but somehow I don't see that as being too likely.
Ok, let me restate this; Step 1 of the Black Crusade is expanding the Eye to encompass the galaxy to allow them to bring their Daemons to bear, so if they can conquer Cadia, which is very likely, they'll not be deploying in drips and drabs, they'll turn half the galaxy into a Daemonic playpen.
Part 2: the beast assailed the entire Imperium at once, spreading the forces with no real direction towards major worlds. Abaddon is taking his majority forces to Terra, and he only needs to conquer a handful of worlds to be successful.
At this moment, as it begins, the Black Crusade could be choked into submission due to narrow chokepoint at Cadia. If that single system falls, the galaxy will be subject to apocalypse on a biblical scale across the entire galaxy. Quite literally biblical
100524
Post by: Robin5t
Deadshot wrote: Robin5t wrote: Deadshot wrote: Robin5t wrote: Deadshot wrote:
The Black Crusade is bigger than any Ork Waaagh in history,
Yo, the Great Beast called, he just wanted me to bring up that time he laid siege to the entire galaxy at once.
And the Chaos Gods are constantly laying siege to all the galaxy at once simulataeously on a dimensional and philosophical as well as a literal and war level. They have literally infinite legions of Daemons. There are more Daemons in the Warp than humans, Tyranids and Orks in the galaxy combined. If the Black Crusade's objective, which is to expand the Eye to encompass most if not all the galaxy which would allow those Daemons to run rampant as they please. The Great Beast had dectillions of Orks, but 10^33 is still a finite number.
And yet, they can't deploy infinite daemons, while the Beast could and did deploy all of his absurd numbers of Orks. Having infinite daemons is utterly meaningless if you can only bring them to bear in dribs and drabs. You could just as easily say they're up against infinite mortals because humans and orks can reproduce for all the good it's worth.
The Black Crusades get funnelled through a relatively small choke point and take a narrow route through the Imperium to whatever objective they're aiming for, facing hard resistance the entire way. The Beast? He hit basically everything in a relatively fresh Imperium at once and still rolled all the way into Terra like it was nothing. If the 13th Black Crusade can manage a strategic curbstomp of that scale, then I might start considering it to be on the Beast's level, but somehow I don't see that as being too likely.
Ok, let me restate this; Step 1 of the Black Crusade is expanding the Eye to encompass the galaxy to allow them to bring their Daemons to bear, so if they can conquer Cadia, which is very likely, they'll not be deploying in drips and drabs, they'll turn half the galaxy into a Daemonic playpen.
Part 2: the beast assailed the entire Imperium at once, spreading the forces with no real direction towards major worlds. Abaddon is taking his majority forces to Terra, and he only needs to conquer a handful of worlds to be successful.
At this moment, as it begins, the Black Crusade could be choked into submission due to narrow chokepoint at Cadia. If that single system falls, the galaxy will be subject to apocalypse on a biblical scale across the entire galaxy. Quite literally biblical
You're literally making my argument for me. The Beast could afford to attack everything at once and still made it to Terra with ease.
What I'm saying is, the results speak for themselves. While the 13th Black Crusade is stated to be the 'biggest ever', we can still reasonably assume that it's not orders of magnitude larger than the largest of the previous excursions, because if Chaos had that amount of force available to rush the Cadian Gate, they should have used more in their previous attacks. The Beast's Waaagh, on the other hand, was orders of magnitude larger and more successful than any of the Black Crusades, probably more so than most if not all of them put together. When Abaddon launches a Black Crusade, the Imperium's up for a rough fight. When the Beast launched his campaign against the Imperium, there was no 'fight' about it, the Imperium just got utterly wrecked.
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Post by: Anemone
@OP: Threats to the Imperium remain largely theoretical in nature only. That is too say, vague pronouncements of; 'If the Orks ever united they could destroy us all, the Tyranids come in unstoppable numbers, soon the Tomb Worlds will awaken and none will stop the Necron, the Tau could grow too rapidly' with little concrete evidence of any since in all cases the Imperium has far more recorded victories (particularly in major existential conflicts) then these listed opponents. Eldar are an exception to this, they both pose no threat and barely ever win. Fluffwise they are simply a slowly dying footnote to the victories of others.
The Imperium has never lost any of its actually significant conflicts, unlike every other faction in the fame (barring Chaos Daemons). Indeed many significant losses quoted here suffered at the hands of the Orks (Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists) are part of plots in which far larger defeats are suffered by the Orks. Additionally in both cases the losses incurred have not had any tangible impact in the fluff. No conflict has been described as being 'lost' as a result of the Crimson Fist's losses during the battle of their home world.
Tyranids have actually managed some serious achievements, almost certainly the most successful enemy of the Imperium. Orks are largely negligible, Chaos suffers from its 'cannot lose' condition meaning the creators don't mind having it never 'win', the Tau literally only exist by the providence of luck (and most players would want that providence removed ASAP), the Craftworld Eldar recently committed suicide, the Dark Eldar largely do nothing of note on a galactic military level and the Necron's do surprisingly little of note on a Galactic military level considering their vaunted abilities.
To be fair as an above poster pointed out the Imperium has already wiped out most non-human life in the galaxy, Orks are restricted to small pockets, Chaos to designated Warp Storm Areas (with rebellions arising usually only for a fluff piece to follow about how effortlessly loyalist Marines crushed said rebellion) and its simply canonical to the 40k universe that humanity can, if it united, simply wipe out all other forces.
The lack of tension is boring to read since the outcome of any major conflict is guessable instantly. I cannot think of a single time I opened a 40k Book or narrative supplement and didn't know who was going to win simply by seeing who was participating.
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Post by: Backspacehacker
No imperial losses? What is storm of iron by Graham McNeill
To be fair Anemone, you complaining about how some one is writing a story where the majority of the readers want their heros to win so i mean cmon.
Orks are a massive threat as a full blown Wagh causes emense damage.
The thing people ALWAYS forget is that any time a massive piece of tech is lost, even if the IoM repelled the largest wagh in history, buy in the process the orks destroyed the let say, titan manafactorium, thats it, the IoM lost that battle. Thats because they can never replace them, once a big piece of tech goes down thats it its gone. 9/10 times the tech is worth more then the planet its currently on because its so rare.
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Post by: Inaphyt
 Anemone wrote:@ OP: Threats to the Imperium remain largely theoretical in nature only. That is too say, vague pronouncements of; 'If the Orks ever united they could destroy us all, the Tyranids come in unstoppable numbers, soon the Tomb Worlds will awaken and none will stop the Necron, the Tau could grow too rapidly' with little concrete evidence of any since in all cases the Imperium has far more recorded victories (particularly in major existential conflicts) then these listed opponents. Eldar are an exception to this, they both pose no threat and barely ever win. Fluffwise they are simply a slowly dying footnote to the victories of others.
The Imperium has never lost any of its actually significant conflicts, unlike every other faction in the fame (barring Chaos Daemons). Indeed many significant losses quoted here suffered at the hands of the Orks (Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists) are part of plots in which far larger defeats are suffered by the Orks. Additionally in both cases the losses incurred have not had any tangible impact in the fluff. No conflict has been described as being 'lost' as a result of the Crimson Fist's losses during the battle of their home world.
Tyranids have actually managed some serious achievements, almost certainly the most successful enemy of the Imperium. Orks are largely negligible, Chaos suffers from its 'cannot lose' condition meaning the creators don't mind having it never 'win', the Tau literally only exist by the providence of luck (and most players would want that providence removed ASAP), the Craftworld Eldar recently committed suicide, the Dark Eldar largely do nothing of note on a galactic military level and the Necron's do surprisingly little of note on a Galactic military level considering their vaunted abilities.
To be fair as an above poster pointed out the Imperium has already wiped out most non-human life in the galaxy, Orks are restricted to small pockets, Chaos to designated Warp Storm Areas (with rebellions arising usually only for a fluff piece to follow about how effortlessly loyalist Marines crushed said rebellion) and its simply canonical to the 40k universe that humanity can, if it united, simply wipe out all other forces.
The lack of tension is boring to read since the outcome of any major conflict is guessable instantly. I cannot think of a single time I opened a 40k Book or narrative supplement and didn't know who was going to win simply by seeing who was participating.
The first to agree with my position? Then i'm interested on your thoughts on a new gigantic empire entering into the lore, the other problem i personally find with the lore is the lack of diplomatic relations between the races how epic would a neutral embassy where the leaders of nations come together to discuss terms of war the treachery the backstabbing the potential peace, the sanctions this would surely inject the lore with substance. Further what about the tyranid communicating for the first time in a mass effect reaper-esque fashion that would be so epic.
As it stands with 40k it's like an xmen movie set in the past as you already know the xmen are alive in the future there is no tension same story where humanity simply has to wave it's hand to fill the skies with battlecruisers darkening the entire system.
I agree with you when you say it's all overhyping of the other races the eldar for instance "they can see decades into the future" weren't saying that when they got their asses handed to them every time though.
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Post by: Backspacehacker
So you are just cherry picking people who agree with you now? even though every one has pretty clearly told you why thats not the case.
I doubt that we would find a new "empire" thats gone undiscovered and or uneffected by the warp or eldar in some way.
It would be pointless for the nids to "communicate" because the IoM dont care, even if they were able to talk and express emotions they are note human there fore they are to be killed.
Humans dont work with xenos.
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Post by: Anemone
@Backspacehacker: How is he cherry picking? He literally said I'm the first person to agree with him and then asked my opinion on something.
How is that cherry picking? That just means he wants to have a conversation with someone with a similar view point to him. Either you're using that expression incorrectly or, otherwise, we have completely different understandings of what 'cherry picking' means.
Also who said 'no Imperial losses'? I believe, if you read what I typed, I stated 'significant' losses, you know, like what Death Masque was for Craftworld Eldar, the Beast Waaagh!!! was for the Orks, the Damocles Gulf being set ablaze was for the Tau and such.
Indeed you refer to one minor battle in a BL novel. I do hope you understand how that obviously doesn't in anyway change the overwhelmingly dominant trend of the Imperium beating everyone and usually outperforming everyone at their own specialties (the Imperium has more advanced technology than the Tau, predicts and overcomes the Craftworld Eldar, Out-muscles the Orks).
Also Orks aren't a massive threat. You can't simply go 'Orks are a massive threat' and then it becomes canon. What is your evidence for this point? Give me an example of a major irrevocable defeat suffered by the Imperium in a military campaign against the Orks. Something involving major military forces and characters where, at the end of the campaign, the Orks have won.
To be honest your lack of any solid examples of Imperium defeats in the same league as the Chaos Space Marine defeats in the Horus Heresy, Orkish defeats in the Beast Waaagh!!! Craftworld Eldar defeats in Death Masque, the acknowledged fact that even a small Space Marine fleet force endangered all of Commorragh, makes your obsession with the loss of 'tech' seem like you're grasping at straws.
None of this is meant as offence, I apologize if it seems so, it just doesn't feel like you substantiate your point with much textual reference to major narrative events in the fluff.
@Inaphyt: My thoughts? My thoughts are it won't happen so you're looking in the wrong place for it I'm afraid. No Empire will ever emerge which can challenge the Imperium, its virtually canon that no race can ever be as good as humans at anything since the setting runs on that concept to a large degree, the Tau are the closest to 'Empire emerging' and they are a minute and irrelevant dot who are constantly called for to be removed wholesale from the setting. Imagine how an actual Empire which poses a challenge or threat to the Imperium would be received?
Your talk of neutral embassies and diplomacy rather than simple xenophobia on all sides makes it sound like you'd prefer Warhammer Fantasy actually, or Age of Sigmar, since both allow for decent living beings engaged in fun and engaging political situations which don't just amount to shooting everything on sight or, sometimes, shooting together at something bigger and then going back to shooting each other. I'll agree the lack of political nuance (beyond Imperium in-fighting) in 40k is a bit of a pity.
I'm not a fan of the idea of Tyranid communication, they're one of the few factions I'm actually quite satisfied with. But yes the lack of tension is boring to the extreme.
Craftworld Eldar are a good example because of how bad they are at everything they're meant to be good at (in fluff). Their foresight fails them so many times that, well, like someone put it on /tg/ roundabout Death Masque; 'No-one should be surprised Eldrad's prophecy fails, he fails more than he succeeds like all Eldar Farseers' or something like that.
Short of it is when the Regimental Standard's write up on the Xenos factions seems like its actually canon things become boring. To me.
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Post by: Peregrine
Inaphyt wrote:the other problem i personally find with the lore is the lack of diplomatic relations between the races
You seem to be missing the point of the setting. Diplomacy is barely a thing in 40k. Maybe with the Tau or Eldar you can make a deal that delays your inevitable death in exchange for giving up something they want, but for everyone else there is only DEATH TO THE XENOS AND THE HERETIC or WAAAAAAAAAAAGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and an eternity of slaughter. Asking the 40k factions to be reasonable and work out compromises does not work in a setting where a major theme is "everyone is too bloodthirsty and stupid to do what is necessary to save themselves".
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Post by: ProwlerPC
The Imperium is safe from all threats because of only one overwhelming powerful reason: GW''s refusal to advance the plot.
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Post by: Backspacehacker
The beast
Bork
Gargahak
Just to name a few waghs that ravaged the imperium
It's cherry picking in that we have 2 pages of people telling him he's wrong and he decides to pick the one person who slightly agrees with him.
Again just because the imperium repls an attack does not mean they won, the losses of tech and manufacturing is far more of a blow then the loss of life
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Post by: Peregrine
Inaphyt wrote:As it stands with 40k it's like an xmen movie set in the past as you already know the xmen are alive in the future there is no tension same story where humanity simply has to wave it's hand to fill the skies with battlecruisers darkening the entire system.
40k is a setting, not a story. You know that no faction is ever going to lose and disappear because those models have to be supported. Expecting 40k's story to ever move forwards or be anything other than an endless series of meaningless battles is really missing the point of the background fiction.
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Post by: Backspacehacker
 ProwlerPC wrote:The Imperium is safe from all threats because of only one overwhelming powerful reason: GW''s refusal to advance the plot.
Agree with this, but in side the 40k universe it's not reasonable to say they are not threated, if you remove the meta lore of knowing GW won't advance the bloody story. But the actual factions are threats.
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Post by: Sgt_Smudge
Anemone wrote:@Backspacehacker: How is he cherry picking? He literally said I'm the first person to agree with him and then asked my opinion on something. How is that cherry picking? That just means he wants to have a conversation with someone with a similar view point to him. Either you're using that expression incorrectly or, otherwise, we have completely different understandings of what 'cherry picking' means.
I think BSH may have referred to the fact that OP didn't address or acknowledge opposing posts and only focused on those which supported/enhanced their opinion. Which is somewhat frowned upon in a public forum, to avoid it becoming an echo chamber. But that's just my guess? Also who said 'no Imperial losses'? I believe, if you read what I typed, I stated 'significant' losses, you know, like what Death Masque was for Craftworld Eldar, the Beast Waaagh!!! was for the Orks, the Damocles Gulf being set ablaze was for the Tau and such.
The Heresy. The Abyssal Crusades. The Tyrannic War, specifically looking around Ryza and Gryphonne. The Orphean War. Hydra Cordatus. Segmentus Pacificus going dark. There's six+ major Imperial losses. Indeed you refer to one minor battle in a BL novel. I do hope you understand how that obviously doesn't in anyway change the overwhelmingly dominant trend of the Imperium beating everyone and usually outperforming everyone at their own specialties (the Imperium has more advanced technology than the Tau, predicts and overcomes the Craftworld Eldar, Out-muscles the Orks).
And Tau out-evolve the Tyranids, the Harlequins nearly reach the Emperor's Throne, and Orks breach the Cadian Gate, and Necrons have a device that literally snuffs out suns like candles. Point? The Imperium ARE strong. They need to be, seeing as they're being attacked on all ends. It's a testament to their strength that they survived beyond the Heresy, Beast and Vandire's reign. And yes - the Imperium do have better tech than the Tau. It's just revered as relics, and thus rarely deployed on the battlefield. What the Imperium do bring is the low tech they can pump out fast than Tau can replace magazines.
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Post by: Backspacehacker
Peregrine wrote:Inaphyt wrote:As it stands with 40k it's like an xmen movie set in the past as you already know the xmen are alive in the future there is no tension same story where humanity simply has to wave it's hand to fill the skies with battlecruisers darkening the entire system.
40k is a setting, not a story. You know that no faction is ever going to lose and disappear because those models have to be supported. Expecting 40k's story to ever move forwards or be anything other than an endless series of meaningless battles is really missing the point of the background fiction.
The other thing people forget it's a setting, it's like saying the Warcraft story, there's a lot that makes up that lol Automatically Appended Next Post: @smudge that is what I mean by cherry picking
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Post by: AnomanderRake
There's a certain life-is-simple RTS-politics mentality evinced by the OP's entire rant. Broadly speaking if you're going to take every statement by the authors, no matter how contradictory or hyperbole-filled, at face value and then assume that 'the Imperium' or 'the Necrons' are a unified monolithic entity under the total control of a single perfectly rational mind with perfect information nothing is ever going to make sense. I'd suggest taking the contradictions and asking 'Why might this be?' instead of deciding the writers were morons and going and complaining about how complicated interstellar war and politics are.
Yes, you could say 'the setting is propped up by the writers' desire to keep the game going', but at that point you're dodging the whole discussion and the opportunity to learn things.
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Post by: Anemone
@Backspacehacker: What? The Beast Waaagh!!! You realize the Imperium wins that, correct?
I also hardly see how Klawjaw or Garaghak are 'major' considering the numbers involved in their conflict and the lack of any major characters. Again if we're discussing the narrative here these are tiny examples compared to the major narrative works and supplements.
So your only major example is the biggest Ork defeat in history.
You act as if a Waaagh!!! doing damage to the Imperium means it won. That makes no sense since by that measure every army ever has won all wars ever. There are never any losers in any battle by that methodology.
@Sgt_Smudge:
Heresy=Literally an Imperium victory. Again I have no idea why you are bringing this up.
Tyrannic War: Again listed as Imperium victory in the first two accounts and in the third it is currently inconclusive
Abyssal Crusade: I wouldn't even call this a straight defeat, although I think its a good example, since we're told the Marines purged 400 worlds within the Eye of Terror, returned to talk about it and killed the false Saint. Mixed.
Orphean War: A Stalemate, again not an actual significant defeat.
Hydra Cordatus: A straight example. That's one Chaos Space Marine victory on a single planet, doesn't change the statistics at all.
Segmentum Pacificus: Ongoing, can't judge yet as there's been no conclusion of any sort.
So that's three major Imperium victories, two inconclusive and ongoing conflicts, a single minor Chaos Space Marine Victory, a mixed result and a stalemate.
As for the other examples; to be honest the incidents you're listing are often the only example of such 'inane' fluff for their respective faction that happens.
The point remains that humans consistently in the fluff out-perform and excel in all functions over all other races. If you want we can simply compare the list of examples, I've collated like the battles, and you'll see there's an overwhelming statistical advantage in the favour of the Imperium. That is the point.
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Post by: Backspacehacker
lol what?! The heresy was hardly a victory, the emeror died the human version of the web way was destroyed, the IoM entered the current dark age, technology was lost, half of the most powerful fighting force was destroyed. Hardly an actual win.
This always goes back to the same problem you are not getting, just because the IoM "wins" does not me they came out ahead for the better. If an irk wargh took out a Titan that's a major loss because they can't be replaced that easily, most of these things are relics that are in replaceable
I don't think anyone is arguing they don't have the advantage, we are saying they still suffer losses and are plagued by threats that could hurt them.
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Post by: Anemone
@Backspacehacker: The Heresy was a victory. It is listed at such on every site concerning 40k and in every book in which the Heresy is discussed the Chaos Space Marines consider it a defeat and the Loyalists a victory. The Warhammer 40k books itself consider it a victory.
Why isn't it a victory? Despite half of the Imperium's armies turning against them the hegemon defeated the insurgents and endured as the galactic dominant hegemon for another almost 80 000 years and has only spread in size since then. If it suffered so much why was it so successful?
Just to be realistic for a moment here; in reality a civil war which saw almost half of the entire military betray would usually result in the fragmentation of the hegemon. Particularly since in virtually all Civil Wars one faction is actually considerably larger than the other, there is rarely a very close 50/50 split. The Horus Heresy, like the Beast Waaagh!!!, like the first two Tyrannic Wars, like Death Masque, like the 2nd Armageddon War and others was a major victory for the Imperium.
Additionally you still do not address the core point of adducing any evidence for why Orks are a threat or any major Imperium losses. You again have resorted to saying that the Imperium looses 'tech' and that thus they are defeated.
Let us look at this realistically then;
For the loss of 'tech' to actually constitute a defeat it would have to mean that the loss of 'tech' in a battle results in defeats later on as a result of it not being available.
Do you have any examples of of this?
I can give examples to the contrary regarding Space Marine losses, the Crimson Fist's, Imperial Fists and Ultramarines have all suffered heavy losses which, despite implications, have not in fluff been demonstrated to have resulted in any defeats later on as a result of this lack of manpower.
For the loss of said 'asset' to qualify as a 'defeat' in its own right it must be demonstrated that the loss of said 'asset' later leads to a defeat.
The Imperium is plagued by two threats which can hurt them (in a sense which matters) the Chaos Gods and the Tyranid. The Necron would be a third if they were more active.
Orks, Tau and Eldar are virtually irrelevant.
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Post by: Backspacehacker
I got a great example for you.
The Horus heresy, the the Big E was not killed do you think these wars would sill be going on? Sure the according to you the IoM "won" the battle but do you think they are in a better position with out the emperor? Do you think if the emperor, if still alive would have been able to effect the IoM? Let's take a look
If the Big E was still here we would not have this dark age, large military forces, a working human web way, technology would not be religious relics bit be what they are machines.
Like right there! I just showed you a perfect example of where the IoM "won" but did not come out for the better
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Post by: Anemone
@Backspacehacker: You seem to not grasp the difference between 'defeat' and 'loss'.
You realize that in most wars there are 'losses' which mean even the victories faction has reduced capabilities in some regards, correct?
You then also understand how 'losses' do not translate into a defeat.
The 'Loss' of the Emperor did impair the material capabilities of the Imperium. It has not lead to any significant defeat though since, despite the 'Loss' of the Emperor 80 000+ years ago the hegemon of the Imperium of Man has only increased in size and remains the dominant galactic hegemon, having driven virtually all other life in the galaxy to extinction barring Orks.
So, again, the difference between 'loss' and 'defeat'. 'Losses' always accrue in war. They are not equivalent to 'defeat'.
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Post by: Backspacehacker
Also look up a Pyrrhic victory, it means a battle that was won with such losses it's barely considered a win
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Post by: Sgt_Smudge
Anemone wrote:@Sgt_Smudge: Heresy=Literally an Imperium victory. Again I have no idea why you are bringing this up.
I'm sorry? The Emperor mortally wounded, the Imperium put in a state of technological regression, and besieged for the next 10k years? That's not a victory at all. There doesn't need to be a winner and loser. They can both lose - as they did here. It's just that Chaos retreated, and the Imperium is slowly dying off. A pyrrhic victory, if you will. Tyrannic War: Again listed as Imperium victory in the first two accounts and in the third it is currently inconclusive
Forge World of Tyran destroyed. The Gryphonne system is losing lots of power. Ryza is the main producer of plasma, and is in very real danger. The battle's not over, but it certainly doesn't look good. Abyssal Crusade: I wouldn't even call this a straight defeat, although I think its a good example, since we're told the Marines purged 400 worlds within the Eye of Terror, returned to talk about it and killed the false Saint. Mixed.
WHAT. You don't call the killing or corruption of over 99% of the thirty Chapters' worth of Space Marine forces deployed a defeat? They came back and killed an elderly man with no power after that Crusade. Basillius succeeded beyond all hopes by damning thirty Chapters to either die or fall to Chaos. In fact, I don't recall 400 worlds even being purged. Source? That was a MASSIVE defeat. Orphean War: A Stalemate, again not an actual significant defeat.
The Necrons brutalised an entire sector with a single Dynasty, compared to several Chapters of Astartes, regiments of Guardsmen, and the Battlefleet Orpheus. It was certainly not an Imperial victory though. Hydra Cordatus: A straight example. That's one Chaos Space Marine victory on a single planet, doesn't change the statistics at all.
That planet held uncorrupted Imperial Fist geneseed stocks. Good luck creating many Imperial Fist successors any time soon. In the meantime, Chaos just got a massive boon from new geneseed toys. Segmentum Pacificus: Ongoing, can't judge yet as there's been no conclusion of any sort.
Lexicanum wrote:In 999.M41, whole swaths of Segmentum Pacificus would suffer from mass uprisings by disgruntled citizens collectively known as the Night of a Thousand Rebellions. Many outlaying planets as well as key worlds such as Darkhold, Minisotira, and Enceladus are swept up in the chaos. Even the Lions Defiant Chapter of Space Marines find their Homeworld the victim of insurgent activity. Since the uprisings began, communication with much of Segmentum Pacificus has been lost.
Doesn't sound like an ongoing situation. Sounds like the Imperium lost a lot of key worlds, and at least two Chapters were caught up. So that's three major Imperium victories, two inconclusive and ongoing conflicts, a single minor Chaos Space Marine Victory, a mixed result and a stalemate.
As for the other examples; to be honest the incidents you're listing are often the only example of such 'inane' fluff for their respective faction that happens.
But they are cases, no? We're not told every battle. I wouldn't be surprised to know that for every Imperial victory on a nameless, another two happen on equally nameless worlds. We're clearly getting mixed messages, as something tells us the Imperium should be winning (the Imperial-centric novels), or the blurb which tells us the Imperium is constantly regressing. Personally, I'd follow the latter. The point remains that humans consistently in the fluff out-perform and excel in all functions over all other races. If you want we can simply compare the list of examples, I've collated like the battles, and you'll see there's an overwhelming statistical advantage in the favour of the Imperium. That is the point.
But is any other faction fighting head on against a literal galaxy of threats?
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Post by: Anemone
@Backspacehacker: NO!
Firstly Pyrrhic victory is open to differing interpretations to an extent. However for our purposes we are looking at the historical explanation for the term;
The King of Epirus for whom the term is coined won a battle against the Romans but, inevitably, this did not change the inevitable absorption into the Roman Empire of the Hellenistic World he inhabited.
A Pyrrhic Victory requires that the victory not forestall the ultimate defeat.
A Pyrrhic Victory is not when you win a battle and 80 000+ years on you are still the dominant power throughout the galaxy.
@Sgt_Smudge: The Heresy was victory. It is why it is referred to as a victory and why if you ask the vast majority of readers who won the Horus Heresy they will respond; "The Imperium," hence Abaddon's lament of Horus' weakness for being incapable of winning. Considering following the Heresy the Imperium endured as the dominant hegemon for another 80 000+ years it is quite clearly a victory for the Imperium.
As for the Tyrannic War; again a list of 'losses' but with no actual change of the outcome of the way; "Tyranid defeat". As I said the third one is currently inconclusive, let us see how it concludes, for now it doesn't count.
As for the Abyssal Crusade; as I said it is mixed, but the purging of 400 worlds definitely prevents it from being a straight Imperium loss. As for source; 40k 6th edition Rulebook 170-171.
Orphean War was a stalemate, sorry, that's what its called. Pointing out how well the Necrons did is fine, but they did well to achieve a stalemate is what you're saying.
As Hydra Cordatus; lets see if a problem arises in the Fluff, shall we? I have a feeling the loss of said Geneseed will never be referenced or have any material impact in the fluff. But we can wait and see if it does.
As for Segmentum Pacificus: I mean it literally calls it ongoing, there's an ongoing series of uprisings and conflicts, we don't know how they will end yet. Again, we have to wait and see.
And the the final point; so your argument seems to boil down to saying that the Imperium looses significant battles we're not told about. For obvious reasons, since it is a narrative venture, this makes discussion impossible since now we could simply say 'but it happened without us knowing'. Since it is a story we must rely on the information and statistical data we are provided, not on postulations about what 'might' be happening.
Also, to your question, I believe both Orks and Necrons are taking on a literal galaxy of threats constantly and for far longer than the Imperium ever has.
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Post by: Backspacehacker
I'm not arguing the deference between a loss and a defeat.
You asked for an example of when the destruction of tech effected further battles and I provided a clear example of that.
With out the emperor there were and still are defeats across multiple chapters and worlds and the stagnation of technology. There is no arguing that because that's the whole point of the story haha.
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Post by: Sgt_Smudge
Anemone wrote:@Backspacehacker: NO!
Firstly Pyrrhic victory is open to differing interpretations to an extent. However for our YOUR purposes we are looking at the historical explanation for the term;
The King of Epirus for whom the term is coined won a battle against the Romans but, inevitably, this did not change the inevitable absorption into the Roman Empire of the Hellenistic World he inhabited.
Why are we not using the correct definition?
Pyrrhic: (of a victory) won at too great a cost to have been worthwhile for the victor.
Sounds just like the Heresy, no? They lived, but was it worth it? Would you ever choose to live in the Imperium?
A Pyrrhic Victory requires that the victory not forestall the ultimate defeat.
The end hasn't come - yet. The Imperium is a dying animal, stuck in it's death throes. It's not getting much better.
A Pyrrhic Victory is not when you win a battle and 80,000+ 10000 years on you are still the dominantdying power throughout the galaxy.
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Post by: Anemone
@Backspacehacker: Alright then please list these Significant defeats for me. I am quite interested now to hear of these defeats in the league of the Beast Waaagh!!!, Death Masque and Rynn's World which I apparently do not know about.
@Sgt_Smudge: That was addressed to Backspacehacker, not you, and the reason it is incorrect is because a victory which 10000 years on still has not seen the victor destroyed is obviously not pyrrhic.
As for was the Heresy worth it; to an overwhelming number of individuals it was, the majority of the human species, so the short answer to your question would be; Yes.
And they are the dominant power, not dying, dying would mean they are losing vast tracks of territory or suffering crippling defeats and facing foes they cannot overcome. It would not mean that they win virtually every major engagement and battled they are involved in. Obviously.
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Post by: Backspacehacker
Horus heresy?
See smudges post for more beautiful examples
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Post by: Anemone
@Backspacehacker: The one's I've already rebutted? The Heresy which is pre-the death of the Emperor (thus failing the requirements for your point) and regardless a victory in any case?
Okay, look, if you don't want to have the conversation that is fine, no one is required too, but then rather say so please.
Or...I don't know how to respond to your point at all since I can't understand what you're doing other than repeating an earlier (already dealt with) point.
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Post by: Backspacehacker
Lol the IoM is dying, that's one of the damn driving pouts of the story! Like have you missed the part where people literally think now that technology and weapons have a spirit they need to pray to in order for it to work? A universe where thy don't even know how to fix most of their old machines and simply believe they are relics and don't realize that think they are praying to is a freaking toaster.
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You did not disprove anything, how is a battle in which the leader of all mankind is placed upon a life support system not a massive loss? Sure they lived but they have declined.
You are the one who can't seem to see that and only see the surface outcome not the everlasting effect of it.
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I will conceded with you on this.
The Horus heresy was not a defeat, but it sure as hell was a loss
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Post by: Sgt_Smudge
@Sgt_Smudge: The Heresy was victory. It is why it is referred to as a victory and why if you ask the vast majority of readers who won the Horus Heresy they will respond; "The Imperium," hence Abaddon's lament of Horus' weakness for being incapable of winning. Considering following the Heresy the Imperium endured as the dominant hegemon for another 80 000+ years it is quite clearly a victory for the Imperium.
See my point on the CORRECT definition of Pyrrhic Victory.
As for the Tyrannic War; again a list of 'losses' but with no actual change of the outcome of the way; "Tyranid defeat". As I said the third one is currently inconclusive, let us see how it concludes, for now it doesn't count.
Tyran remains a loss.
As for the Abyssal Crusade; as I said it is mixed, but the purging of 400 worlds definitely prevents it from being a straight Imperium loss. As for source; 40k 6th edition Rulebook 170-171.
How so? Daemon Worlds can be replenished VERY easily. Hardly a reason to justify 99% of 30000 Space Marines dying. Still a massive loss, especially when so many traitor warbands were formed.
Orphean War was a stalemate, sorry, that's what its called. Pointing out how well the Necrons did is fine, but they did well to achieve a stalemate is what you're saying.
Considering the Necrons put so little into that battle, it's a very worrying prospect for the Imperium.
As Hydra Cordatus; lets see if a problem arises in the Fluff, shall we? I have a feeling the loss of said Geneseed will never be referenced or have any material impact in the fluff. But we can wait and see if it does.
True. I also doubt a great many other Imperial wins will be that important in the fluff. Let's see if the events for Pandorax or Death Masque are expanded on.
As for Segmentum Pacificus: I mean it literally calls it ongoing, there's an ongoing series of uprisings and conflicts, we don't know how they will end yet. Again, we have to wait and see.
Isn't it all ongoing, by that sense? I mean, xenos will always get a chance to attack again, and the Imperium will always get a chance to retake. When does the war end? Hence the whole setting. The war doesn't end.
And the the final point; so your argument seems to boil down to saying that the Imperium looses significant battles we're not told about. For obvious reasons, since it is a narrative venture, this makes discussion impossible since now we could simply say 'but it happened without us knowing'. Since it is a story we must rely on the information and statistical data we are provided, not on postulations about what 'might' be happening.
Which brings to a main issue many people bring up - it's a setting, not a story. It never will advance, not significantly anyway. It will always be a state of decline and regression, of eternal war and misery and death. Diplomacy will fail, hope will not grow, and your soul will probably be eaten by daemons.
Welcome to 40k, eh? 
Also, to your question, I believe both Orks and Necrons are taking on a literal galaxy of threats constantly and for far longer than the Imperium ever has.
They are? Seeing as Necrons aren't all awake, and are not actively being attacked by the majority of Chaos forces in the galaxy, I doubt this.
And when have we ever seen a unified Ork empire fighting against an entire front of foes?
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Post by: Backspacehacker
If there was such a thing as dakka gold I would give you some smudge :p
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Post by: Sgt_Smudge
Anemone wrote:@Sgt_Smudge: That was addressed to Backspacehacker, not you, and the reason it is incorrect is because a victory which 10000 years on still has not seen the victor destroyed is obviously not pyrrhic.
So, likewise, because Chaos hasn't been destroyed, they haven't lost? If we're going in such absolutes, it only seems fair.
As for was the Heresy worth it; to an overwhelming number of individuals it was, the majority of the human species, so the short answer to your question would be; Yes.
Really? Even those who live in what is practically slavery and unimaginably bad conditions? Should humanity have died to spare the countless short pitiful lives of it's people?
And they are the dominant power, not dying, dying would mean they are losing vast tracks of territory or suffering crippling defeats and facing foes they cannot overcome. It would not mean that they win virtually every major engagement and battled they are involved in. Obviously.
And I quote the 6th Ed rulebook:
"Despite the massive scale of Mankind's empire, on a spider's thread hangs the balance."
Doesn't really seem as solid as you say.
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Post by: BrianDavion
Xathrodox86 wrote:Orks and Tyranids are the biggest threat, lore wise. They're nigh unstopabble forces of nature that are too big to contain, unless by taking a drastic solution (Kryptmann).
I don't believe that in the 41st millenium Chaos should be considered a viable threat. The Gods had their chance and screwed it. They've played their hand openly 10K years earlier and now the Imperium knows about them, while their chosen warriors are fewer in number than ever before, languishing in the Eye, with inferior gear, tech and numbers. As soon as the IoM closes the Eye for good (which is possible, I think) the only realt problem with Chaos will be an occasional mad prophet and maybe a daemonic incursion or two, from time to time.
Of course GW tries to up the street cred of Chaos at every possible occasion, but telling people that "this is not our 13th (another one, damn it!) Crusade, but the last battle blah blah blah" dosen't make the threat any bigger. Just like making Abaddon competent all of a sudden. Looking at you ADB.
you're assuming the gods of chaos WANTED a win, I think the current state of affairs is to their liking.
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Post by: Kojiro
This is the real problem of the 40k lore as I see it. Not the premise of slow entropic death, that's awesome. To me (which may be influenced by my age/duration of 40k exposure) the real problem is that that concept doesn't line up with what we see.
For example, imagine if GW had stuck to the old lore, about Teminator suits and dreadnoughts being lost technology. That the best they could do was salvage and cannibalise irreparable ones to make damaged ones work again. Imagine if at some point, they actually removed them (for now let's ignore the backlash against such a thing) from the setting. After 10,000 years the parts just can't be scavenged up any longer. From a story perspective, that would feel like a real loss. It would really feel like one step closer to the end. But instead of things disappearing and being more and more patchwork, we have the opposite. The amount of gear and tech the Imperium has access to seems to be increasing with time. Yeah I get they're 'rediscovered' items but if the rate of rediscovery is greater than the rate of loss you're still adding to the pool.
Granted this is just marines but they are the poster children for 40k. Over the 25 years I've been into 40k I've seen them get shinier, more powerful and have better toys. The setting simply doesn't feel like one of decay, of lessening. This is not at all helped by having the clock stuck at 1 minute to midnight for literally decades now. At some point the 'threat' simply becomes empty. Perhaps the new stuff will change that but I'll wait and see.
Anyway, that's my 2c. All the new shiny has 'tarnished' the grim dark.
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Post by: BrianDavion
 Kojiro wrote:This is the real problem of the 40k lore as I see it. Not the premise of slow entropic death, that's awesome. To me (which may be influenced by my age/duration of 40k exposure) the real problem is that that concept doesn't line up with what we see.
For example, imagine if GW had stuck to the old lore, about Teminator suits and dreadnoughts being lost technology. That the best they could do was salvage and cannibalise irreparable ones to make damaged ones work again. Imagine if at some point, they actually removed them (for now let's ignore the backlash against such a thing) from the setting. After 10,000 years the parts just can't be scavenged up any longer. From a story perspective, that would feel like a real loss. It would really feel like one step closer to the end. But instead of things disappearing and being more and more patchwork, we have the opposite. The amount of gear and tech the Imperium has access to seems to be increasing with time. Yeah I get they're 'rediscovered' items but if the rate of rediscovery is greater than the rate of loss you're still adding to the pool.
Granted this is just marines but they are the poster children for 40k. Over the 25 years I've been into 40k I've seen them get shinier, more powerful and have better toys. The setting simply doesn't feel like one of decay, of lessening. This is not at all helped by having the clock stuck at 1 minute to midnight for literally decades now. At some point the 'threat' simply becomes empty. Perhaps the new stuff will change that but I'll wait and see.
Anyway, that's my 2c. All the new shiny has 'tarnished' the grim dark.
decay in a gaming setting doesn't really work because players demand new shinies. now where GW really has the oppertunity to show "how far we've fallen" is the Horus Heresy material.
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Post by: Anemone
@Backspacehacker: Again the harping on and on about 'technology' and 'backwardness' despite the fact that they need have no direct correlation to victory.
The simple fact that the Imperium could be considered 'backwards' has no bearing on whether or not they win or lose. Its totally separated facts. Your bringing one fact up to obscure what we're actually discussing.
As for how the Heresy was a victory; clearly since the destruction of the Hegemon was prevented, the enemy forces were routed and the hegemon under attack has continued to dominate the galaxy for 10000 years. That's how. It is really rather simple.
At this stage you're also changing the meaning of your point. I stated long ago that there was a difference between a 'loss' and a 'defeat' and that what you mentioned were only 'losses' not 'defeats'.
You remember my post on the difference between 'losses' and 'defeats' correct? Well I am glad we now agree that the Horus Heresy simply had 'losses' but was not a defeat since that was the exact point I was making. So we're now in agreement, good.
As for these 'everlasting effects' again provide me some textual evidence thereof and I will believe you, until you do there is no point to your repetition.
The Heresy was still a victory, I'm not even going to dispute this point anymore since I have no comprehension of your denial thereof.
Tyran was a lost battle, sure, the War was still won by the Imperium. Seriously how many times do we have to go through this?
Why not instead adduce evidence of a major War lost by the Imperium? If the Imperium is losing all these major wars as it 'dies' why not then adduce some evidence of these straight out lost major wars?
As for the Abyssal Crusade; I won't even begin to go into discussing this since you're assuming every single one of those 400 worlds is somehow instantly not a victory despite the fact that the only presence they have in fluff is as stated canonical victories for the Imperium. If you wish to dispute this please provide textual evidence of these 400 worlds returning to the control of Chaos.
Actually numerous Wars do end; The Beast Waaagh!!! Ends, the Tau Second Sphere Expansion Ends, the World Engine Ends, the Damnos War Ends, the Pandorax War Ends, the Horus Heresy Ends, Wars end all the time in 40k, there are always more wars, but Wars do end, and if they are major wars they almost always end in the favour of the Imperium.
Besides Xenos primarily lose all their engagements with the Imperium, I've literally counted the numbers, so I don't know what your point concerning Xenos is.
Also you seem to have missed my point concerning a narrative only being judged by what is told; the setting does not need to advance for other factions, besides the Imperium, to be given more victories and more favourable attention in the plot, the story could simply allow them more victories in the same vain as the Imperium, it has nothing to do with having to advance the setting.
As for Chaos, the Gods, of course they haven't lost, I listed the Imperium and Chaos Daemons as the two factions who win the most.
Honestly considering a relatively common sentiment is that the Imperium, particularly Marines, are getting more powerful and shinier I'm not sure exactly what you're argument is. I mean if you're disputing that the Imperium absolutely dominates in terms of fluff victories I don't see the basis for your point since I've literally counted them and the Imperium wins way more than anyone and, most importantly, has won virtually all the major campaigns it is involved in, something no other faction but the Tau in the game so far can claim.
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Post by: Iracundus
The destruction of Gryphonne IV could be considered a significant defeat of the Imperium by the Tyranids. Gryphonne IV was a major forge world, with a history all the way back to the Heresy, and described as one of the most heavily fortified worlds in the southern Imperium. Now granted this destruction has had no mechanical effects on rules or gameplay, but it does mean a piece of the Imperium with a significant pedigree was destroyed. Though I imagine that GW might in the future try to spin it that some Titan Legion or Tech Priests that were offworld elsewhere in the galaxy survived. They hardly ever fully destroy things these days, with even destroyed Chapters usually having a few stragglers trying to rebuild.
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Post by: Anemone
Yes, Gryphonne IV is an example, I agree, as I've said Tyranid, in fluff, are actually the only Xenos who really threaten the Imperium and consistently do okay.
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Post by: Kojiro
BrianDavion wrote:decay in a gaming setting doesn't really work because players demand new shinies. now where GW really has the oppertunity to show "how far we've fallen" is the Horus Heresy material.
See to me, that's a good reason to create a new game/setting. A fractured Imperium with the Emperor dead and the grip of Terra (and the Mechanicum) shattered throughout human space. If you really want you can make it all a preamble for a return of the primarchs and rebirth of the emperor to start the cycle all over again.
HH is good for showing how far they've fallen but the problem is, as I said, that said descent seems to have not only halted but been reversed. It kinda makes me think of the World of Darkness, which White Wolf actually had the balls to move forward with, literally to The End™. GW could (whether they should is debatable) do the same with 40k. After all people are happily playing games set 10,000 years prior, there's no reason they couldn't continue to play games in the current era. But it'd be nice to have the options/lore/models to play a little into the future too.
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Post by: tneva82
Anemone wrote:
Also who said 'no Imperial losses'? I believe, if you read what I typed, I stated 'significant' losses, you know, like what Death Masque was for Craftworld Eldar, the Beast Waaagh!!! was for the Orks, the Damocles Gulf being set ablaze was for the Tau and such.
You realize that whole IoM is basically series of defeats heading for inevitable loss? Imperium keeps getting weaker and weaker and it's inevitable eventually Chaos will win. At which point it's game over. That's why GW doesn't go for Chaos win scenario because that's IT. Chaos aims for annihilation of reality. Boom. They win and there's no galaxy left to fight over.
Also biggest threat from chaos isn't it's armed might...Oh no. Chaos is actually subtler than that.
See what happened in FB when chaos won their "13th's black crusade" there. That's the logical conclusion for Chaos victory.
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Post by: BrianDavion
Kojiro wrote:BrianDavion wrote:decay in a gaming setting doesn't really work because players demand new shinies. now where GW really has the oppertunity to show "how far we've fallen" is the Horus Heresy material.
See to me, that's a good reason to create a new game/setting. A fractured Imperium with the Emperor dead and the grip of Terra (and the Mechanicum) shattered throughout human space. If you really want you can make it all a preamble for a return of the primarchs and rebirth of the emperor to start the cycle all over again.
HH is good for showing how far they've fallen but the problem is, as I said, that said descent seems to have not only halted but been reversed. It kinda makes me think of the World of Darkness, which White Wolf actually had the balls to move forward with, literally to The End™. GW could (whether they should is debatable) do the same with 40k. After all people are happily playing games set 10,000 years prior, there's no reason they couldn't continue to play games in the current era. But it'd be nice to have the options/lore/models to play a little into the future too.
eh maybe but on the other hand sometimes moving forward can be a problem in and of itself, I mostly walked away from Battletech because I disliked what they where doing with the timeline
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Post by: Iracundus
House Davion could not remain on top for ever. They were due for a fall to maintain the balance of power.
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Post by: Kojiro
Oh for sure. Like ever beloved IP it's gotta be done right. And even then, it won't be right for everyone. Which is why I suggest effectively a past (30k), present ( 40k) and future (maybe just 41k?) so everyone can play the narratives/stories they want to play out AND GW has room to actually expand and add to the setting without seeming to reverse the slow entropic death of the Imperium. Who isn't keen to see the Greater Tau Empire that emerges? The Eldar Remnant Fleets? Or the Human Freehold Alliance, a human sector that broke the Mechanicum's superstition and reestablished science to make advanced tech? Or the Blood Demons, insane descendants of Sanguinius' chapter twisted by Chaos? And orks.. are probably still just orks.
I guess what I'm saying is that they've built this awesome Grim Dark™ setting but they're not committed to it. They've been crying wolf for literally decades now, it's lost it's impact (with me at least). It could be interesting to see what happens if they make it the middle chapter of a trilogy, the Empire Strikes back of the setting where it doesn't end all great for the heroes.
In short, I'd like to see the lore expanded and added to, rather than having old legends detailed. Again, just my 2c.
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Post by: tneva82
Kojiro wrote:Oh for sure. Like ever beloved IP it's gotta be done right. And even then, it won't be right for everyone. Which is why I suggest effectively a past (30k), present ( 40k) and future (maybe just 41k?) so everyone can play the narratives/stories they want to play out AND GW has room to actually expand and add to the setting without seeming to reverse the slow entropic death of the Imperium. Who isn't keen to see the Greater Tau Empire that emerges? The Eldar Remnant Fleets? Or the Human Freehold Alliance, a human sector that broke the Mechanicum's superstition and reestablished science to make advanced tech? Or the Blood Demons, insane descendants of Sanguinius' chapter twisted by Chaos? And orks.. are probably still just orks.
I guess what I'm saying is that they've built this awesome Grim Dark™ setting but they're not committed to it. They've been crying wolf for literally decades now, it's lost it's impact (with me at least). It could be interesting to see what happens if they make it the middle chapter of a trilogy, the Empire Strikes back of the setting where it doesn't end all great for the heroes.
In short, I'd like to see the lore expanded and added to, rather than having old legends detailed. Again, just my 2c.
You seem to be confusing setting with story. Setting doesn't need to change. Point is for players to explore it rather than company. Story is the one where readers are force fed changing story.
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Post by: BrianDavion
Iracundus wrote:House Davion could not remain on top for ever. They were due for a fall to maintain the balance of power.
not quite what my problems with it where (house davion had been on a down slope before I got into the setting, the last war they won was what 3029?). my problem with the constant "one faction can do no wrong ever cause it's the designated winner this year and everyone else are complete morons"
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Post by: Ashiraya
Robin5t wrote:And yet, they can't deploy infinite daemons, while the Beast could and did deploy all of his absurd numbers of Orks.
And yet he lost, and he died. So much for the Beast.
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Post by: Iracundus
BrianDavion wrote:Iracundus wrote:House Davion could not remain on top for ever. They were due for a fall to maintain the balance of power.
not quite what my problems with it where (house davion had been on a down slope before I got into the setting, the last war they won was what 3029?). my problem with the constant "one faction can do no wrong ever cause it's the designated winner this year and everyone else are complete morons"
If you mean House Liao gaining, that was reversing nearly 300 game years of being the designated loser and whipping boy. Almost reversing it in about 80 years was fast, but taking another 300 game years to do so would have meant people complaining at the length of time of them making advances even if those are small ones. Just as 40K has no race ever truly enacting its endgame and "winning the galaxy forever and ever. The End," no faction or merged faction in BTU could be allowed to dominate or nearly win the setting.
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Post by: Anemone
@tneva82: Alright then lets go through this again;
So the Imperium is constantly losing you say and being destroyed? Okay, provide a single major War which the Imperium unequivocally loses, something comparable to the defeats suffered by the Orks during the 2nd Armageddon War or the Beast Waaagh!!!, similar to the Craftworld Eldar at Alaitoc or Death Masque.
Provide me with some concrete TEXTUAL evidence of major Wars lost by the Imperium and then I might be inclined to believe you if the evidence is more than a single exception.
Till then all you do is repeat blurbs about 'danger is coming' with no concrete examples of danger.
Yes the Orks are truly terrifying in large numbers; to bad every time they've united in large numbers so far they've been defeated even when the Imperium itself wasn't united.
Yes Craftworld Eldar are foresighted; too bad only a single one of their grand plans against the Imperium has ever come to fruition and, instead, their are no less than six examples of Ulthwe's own Farseers (so meaning Eldrad) being out planned by Space Marines and, in one case, the Imperial Guard.
Yes Tau are...well nothing really, there just isn't much to them. Their big claim to fame is their technologically advanced, except they aren't, and the most they've ever done is capture one planet from a Token Imperium Force.
Chaos is a long track record of losing. Necron and Dark Eldar barely ever engage in major fluff battles with the Imperium so we're mostly left with the Tyranids, who do actually threaten the Imperium in fluff in major engagements, good for them.
So concrete examples none of this 'we're all doomed' and then no actual examples of any major doom happening. If the Imperium were 'losing' and 'doomed' it wouldn't have endured as the largest and most powerful galactic hegemon for 10000 years or more. That's not how 'losing' works.
I mean seriously just provide two Wars, major fluff wars hyped by the creators of Warhammer, where the Imperium unequivocally loses. If, as you say, they are constantly losing then this should be really, really simple.
@Ashiraya: That's hardly fair to the Beast, no character has ever tried to attack the whole Imperium and won. When Horus attempted too ended up dying too, same as the Beast. The lesson to be drawn is rather obvious.
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Post by: Robin5t
 Ashiraya wrote: Robin5t wrote:And yet, they can't deploy infinite daemons, while the Beast could and did deploy all of his absurd numbers of Orks.
And yet he lost, and he died. So much for the Beast.
As I've pointed out and provided citations for in the fluff winners and losers thread, the only reason he didn't win is because his attack moon sat over a defenceless Terra for days on end doing nothing instead of letting loose with its planet-slicing gravity weapons and winning the war right there.
No force in the game is powerful enough to overcome Plot Induced Stupidity, unfortunately.
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Post by: Bobthehero
Its autor stupidity, he decided to write about an event that could not end with the Imperium getting wiped out, and then decided to put those stupid death star copies and then park one of them by Terra.
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Post by: Ashiraya
Yeah. The problem is that he overwrote the Beast. Robin, you are complaining about the symptom, not the root of the problem.
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Post by: Anemone
@Ashiraya: To be fair that's a very subjective position. Why is the Beast necessarily 'overwritten' when his oldest canonical background is literally a tiny paragraph which simply reads; "And the Beast almost conquered the entire galaxy"?
I think its written stupidly, like a lot of GW fluff, but its hardly unique in its stupidity and I would say the Beast was overwritten. Just poorly written.
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Post by: Robin5t
 Bobthehero wrote:Its autor stupidity, he decided to write about an event that could not end with the Imperium getting wiped out, and then decided to put those stupid death star copies and then park one of them by Terra.
From a narrative standpoint, I actually agree. Considering the Imperium was always supposed to win the war, they made the Beast far too powerful - he seemed pretty much unbeatable until that bit of plot-induced stupidity ultimately caused his downfall. It's the same sort of narrative problem that the Necrons' Celestial Orrery presents - the enemy can win the war in one simple move, but they don't because reasons, and it just ends up looking stupid when the Imperium comes out on top.
However, in-universe, the point stands. The Imperium did not win on its own merits - it won because the ruthless, cunning enemy standing over its beaten body had a random bout of stupid and let it stand back up to try again.
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Post by: 1hadhq
So the real Problem of the 40k verse is Quality Assurance ?
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Post by: nareik
Robin5t wrote: Bobthehero wrote:Its autor stupidity, he decided to write about an event that could not end with the Imperium getting wiped out, and then decided to put those stupid death star copies and then park one of them by Terra.
From a narrative standpoint, I actually agree. Considering the Imperium was always supposed to win the war, they made the Beast far too powerful - he seemed pretty much unbeatable until that bit of plot-induced stupidity ultimately caused his downfall. It's the same sort of narrative problem that the Necrons' Celestial Orrery presents - the enemy can win the war in one simple move, but they don't because reasons, and it just ends up looking stupid when the Imperium comes out on top.
However, in-universe, the point stands. The Imperium did not win on its own merits - it won because the ruthless, cunning enemy standing over its beaten body had a random bout of stupid and let" it stand back up to try again.
Those super sporting orks, and their love of a friendly, sportsmanly bash up... "Good game guy, time for one more?"
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Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy
Robin5t wrote:From a narrative standpoint, I actually agree. Considering the Imperium was always supposed to win the war, they made the Beast far too powerful - he seemed pretty much unbeatable until that bit of plot-induced stupidity ultimately caused his downfall. It's the same sort of narrative problem that the Necrons' Celestial Orrery presents - the enemy can win the war in one simple move, but they don't because reasons, and it just ends up looking stupid when the Imperium comes out on top.
The Celestial Orrery is different because the Necrons controlling it, as far as I know, haven't really fought anyone.
Is it possible the Beast's attack moon couldn't actually do meaningful damage to Terra through it's super void shields or psychic defences or whatnot?
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Post by: Inaphyt
Backspacehacker wrote:So you are just cherry picking people who agree with you now? even though every one has pretty clearly told you why thats not the case.
I doubt that we would find a new "empire" thats gone undiscovered and or uneffected by the warp or eldar in some way.
It would be pointless for the nids to "communicate" because the IoM dont care, even if they were able to talk and express emotions they are note human there fore they are to be killed.
Humans dont work with xenos.
No i feel i've learnt a lot from the people in this thread for example i didn't know the necrons had a "planetary destroyer" kind of weapon and also i didn't consider the imperiums inherent and grave weakness that it is a hegemony and ultimately if terra falls humanity falls in massive way tearing itself apart, it's possible that even the eldar or tau could simply take the bulk of their fleets to terra and simply destroy the astronomicon at great loss to themselves but in the long run saving the rest of the galaxy from zenos persecution at that point humanity doesn't even register as a threat and the tau who still has access to skimming the warp (unsure if humanity does) they could finally absorb and ally themselves from the freed humans around them creating the first cross species alliances and potentially becoming the new undisputed rulers of the galaxy as the humans by and large would become ork like.
However that is a large IF although i've never heard about the defences of terra i assume that it is like cadia as in millions of orbital defence platforms and stuff like that given it's importance still though destroying is far easier the defending stuff.
Also i didn't know that innovation is heresy sounds like a dying race to me was very enlightening.
Here's a strange question is it actually better that humantiy exists for the other races in the universe? like sure if humanity arrives at your homeworld you are done but at this point now the tyranids exist and someone to control orkspace is always nice further it seems that the human engine has stopped conquering worlds now moreso it's defending itself on all sides rather than expanding? The eldar for example may require the humans to deal with the tyranids as their craftworlds actually got nommed by them
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Post by: Iron_Captain
Robin5t wrote: Bobthehero wrote:Its autor stupidity, he decided to write about an event that could not end with the Imperium getting wiped out, and then decided to put those stupid death star copies and then park one of them by Terra.
From a narrative standpoint, I actually agree. Considering the Imperium was always supposed to win the war, they made the Beast far too powerful - he seemed pretty much unbeatable until that bit of plot-induced stupidity ultimately caused his downfall. It's the same sort of narrative problem that the Necrons' Celestial Orrery presents - the enemy can win the war in one simple move, but they don't because reasons, and it just ends up looking stupid when the Imperium comes out on top. However, in-universe, the point stands. The Imperium did not win on its own merits - it won because the ruthless, cunning enemy standing over its beaten body had a random bout of stupid and let it stand back up to try again.
To be fair, that is a really common sci-fi cliché. *cough*Star Wars*cough*
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Post by: Nerak
I agree with the OP but for diffrent reasons then the ones so far discussed. I also believe that the situation the OP describes where true up untill the most recent lore. Let's break down my reasoning bit by bit on why the Imperium hasn't been threatened but now is.
Every race in 40k that's currently around has very specific traits that allow them to stick around where lesser races have failed.
Humanity and Eldar share the ability to see the future and comunicate over vast distances.
Humanity also add the ability to travel from anywhere to anywhere, logistics that's impossible for the other races.
Orks are all but impossible to get rid off. They litteraly procreate as they die and their spores survive both the vaccume of Space and planetary re-entry.
Tau lack warp technology (as far as I'm aware, unless this has changed in recent fluff) but have the avantage of weaponry that's adaptable and of their lesser races. Overall I think they're the most insignificant race and has only survived due to luck. For the purpose of this text, ignore the Tau.
Tyranids avantage is threefold, discounting numbers that may or may not exist. First is that you can't kill a Tyranid since it's biomass will just be recycled into a new one, hence "total destruction" of a fleet is neccesary or every fight with them will be a waste (of course this does not apply to necrons fighting them). They very much fill the classic "undead scurge" roll of a fantasy setting with undead warriors being unkillable and comming back in the shape of new tyranids. Their second avantage is that they do never have a base of operation. You cannot strike at Tyranid strongholds. You always have to fight on the tyranids terms, they will come for you. Their third avantage is that they have insane reconnisance. There's genestealer cults, Tyranid Strains and dormant have ships all over the galax that allow them a great deal of info of where they are going and what they are hitting. Hell, they can probably eat info from your brain, like a Space marine.
Necrons are litteraly immortal. They are the only race with logistics that rival the Imperium in effeciency.
Chaos is what it will always be. It's avantage lies in that it's inhabitants exist by diffrent universal laws. Time, Space and physics does not apply to them, making them a difficult to handle foe for any occupants in the material universe.
Why does this matter?
Because only humans, tau and Eldar can really be beaten. All other races are virtually immortal and hence will remain as a threat no matter what the Imperium does.
Threats and timeline:
Say what you will about the Eldar, chaos, orks and minor races, but the Imperium has remained the dominant power for 10.000years even with them mucking about. Hence, despite however scary they are they have not managed to put down the (logistical war machine that is the) Imperium from its King of the hill position.
Now in the last few hundred years the necrons and the tyranids have emerged to pose new threats, forcing the Imperium to redirect reasources into dealing with them. A clear example of how theese reasources could otherwise have been used is the fact that the Tau has been allowed to grow as powerfull as they have. One could probably argue that chaos and rebelion has been given a bigger chance to spread too. Lastly, reasources sent to theese two galaxy wide threats would probably have been used more against the orks. This would allow the orcs to catch a breather and gather more momentum. Hence we should see more and bigger waaaghs in the last hundred years which, arguably, we do.
Despite all this the Imperium has so far remained top dog. It's ability to redirect reasources from virtually anywhere combined with it's manpower and customs to war has let it persist. Even so, small details like the 13th crusade, the Tau empire, the success of Huron and the increasing rate at which astartes chapters have been lost speaks of a Imperium that's struggling to remain as strong as it's been for the last 10.000years.
EXTRA: besides, there's a gate to chaos beneath the golden throne and Mars is a tomb world.
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Post by: Anemone
@1hadhq: From my side the real problem is just the lopsided nature of the fluff. Have the Imperium suffer major losses within primary narrative works which the work itself concedes as significant, like what the Orks have suffered during the Beast Waaagh!!! and 2nd Armageddon or the Craftworld Eldar suffered with Death Masque, the shattering of Lugganath or the Adeptus Mechanicus' assault on Yme-Loc, or the Tyranid suffered at Ichar and Macragge. Just have a faction other than the Imperium win a major campaign in the narrative for a change which the narrative itself concedes is actually significant.
For example why not let Orks win the Sanctus Reach Campaign Supplement? The Space Wolves definitely didn't need another win.
But that's my position.
@SomeRandomEvilGuy; Unlikely since the High Lords are panicking constantly and consider a Proletarian Crusade their only hope. Besides the Moons have already by that point been demonstrated to have ridiculous firepower.
@Nerak: I'd agree with quite a bit of what you say but...I fail to see how material threats have lead to more significant material consequences of late.
The Tau have grown stronger, they've recently conquered 2 planets, I'll concede that but the Imperium, and narrative itself, within the latest fluff about the Tau actively points out how insignificant this all was so hardly a material threat warranting notice since the story itself informs us bluntly its unimportant.
I don't see how you can argue Chaos and Rebellions have gotten 'stronger' or could you provide a list of battles won and worlds conquered by Chaos of late?
Similar thing with Ork Waaaghs!!!, is there textual evidence for Ork Major victories of late in primary campaigns? I don't remember any, to my knowledge the latest fluff concerning Orks is Ghazghkull's war with the Tyranid, the loss at Sanctus Reach and the Deathwatch killing a Mek and taking his Synapse-Disruption Crown.
That being said the rest I'd agree to, broadly, although Mars being a Tomb World and a Chaos Gate beneath Terra do not by themselves change anything concerning the Imperium's complete military dominance in the narrative, otherwise we'd have to automatically exclude all Dark Eldar due to Khaine's Gate or Iyanden due to being a Tomb Ship.
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Post by: nareik
I think there is a reason for the discrepancy. The stories are of heroic moments in a setting of stagnant decay.
That's why the 'blurby' stuff will talk about increasing chaos insurrection, but the novels will have the space marines winning at the end of the day. All the books that AREN'T written, the imperium is losing or winning pyrically.
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Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy
Anemone wrote:@SomeRandomEvilGuy; Unlikely since the High Lords are panicking constantly and consider a Proletarian Crusade their only hope. Besides the Moons have already by that point been demonstrated to have ridiculous firepower.
An attack moon over Terra would be a threat not seen in over a millennia. I'm not suggesting it'd be incapable of causing damage but the author may not have intended for it to have been an "I win" situation for the Orks.
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Post by: BrianDavion
Iracundus wrote:BrianDavion wrote:Iracundus wrote:House Davion could not remain on top for ever. They were due for a fall to maintain the balance of power.
not quite what my problems with it where (house davion had been on a down slope before I got into the setting, the last war they won was what 3029?). my problem with the constant "one faction can do no wrong ever cause it's the designated winner this year and everyone else are complete morons"
If you mean House Liao gaining, that was reversing nearly 300 game years of being the designated loser and whipping boy. Almost reversing it in about 80 years was fast, but taking another 300 game years to do so would have meant people complaining at the length of time of them making advances even if those are small ones. Just as 40K has no race ever truly enacting its endgame and "winning the galaxy forever and ever. The End," no faction or merged faction in BTU could be allowed to dominate or nearly win the setting.
actually the reversals suffered where mostly gains made in the 4th sucession war which was the dawn of Battletechs "one guy is reasonably intelligent and everyone else is slowed" writing.
which continues to this day. that combined with their tendancy for massive wars that make it hard to really do the tradtional small scale battletech game have just made me lose intreast in the game.
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Post by: Anemone
@nareik: Yes I've heard that as the primary defence as to why the Imperium wins everything of significance and I'm meant to somehow 'buy' that they're losing.
I don't buy it. This is a setting and a story, if they want me to believe something they must demonstrate it. If I'm meant to count my own assumptions about things I don't see as canon then I could argue that there is an enormous empire of sapient Cheese Wheels secretly ruling the entire Galaxy off-screen.
Besides the way you put it there, which I think was very succinct, is my problem; I don't like that only one faction within the setting is so consistently victorious, I would prefer to see victories in the primary narrative doled out more fairly across all factions for all players to enjoy. Speaking as an Imperium Player I would far prefer a situation in which the Orks had won on Sanctus Reach, for example, or the Craftworld Eldar were capable of doing anything other than dying to make other people look cool.
And Eldrad wasn't near-utterly useless.
To put it perhaps best; I want to see the heroic moments of the Orks and Craftworld Eldar versus the Imperium too, I would like heroic moments to be possessed by all factions so all players could enjoy their faction's heroic moments, including against the Imperium.
@SomeRandomEvilGuy: Anything is possible *shrug* but again it seems now like you're postulating just to cast the situation in as favourable light for the Imperium as possible.
Within the novel itself Terra is terrified, its made clear their virtually defenceless and there is a feeling of doom and gloom. Technically I don't recall anyone ever specifically stating something like what you say but, since its never specifically denied...
Honestly I just don't find that reasoning in narratives compelling, it allows far to much space for someone to just end any argument by saying 'But did they specifically say contrary?'.
Reading the book, and the behaviour of everyone on Terra and beyond, the intention seems pretty clear to convey that Terra was saved by the peculiar behaviour of the Orks in this regard. But, if that's unacceptable to you, no-one ever specifically denies what you're saying so I suppose run with it.
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Post by: Ross_R
I gotta say, though I disagree with some of the OP's points, in my head-canon Imperium is definitely unbreakable power. And I like to think of it as of an unbreakable power. Let's say, Imperium will wipe out everyone else. Orks, 'nids, C'tan ... Then they'll get every single Space Marine chapter, catch the bus into the Eye of Terror and kick ass of every single Chaos God.
The irony is that every victory that makes Imperium stronger simultaneously hasten its inevitable destruction. There's no need for anyone to treat the Imperium - Imperium is its own greatest enemy. Even in WH40K there's enough guys like Duke Severus who wish to make their own little playground. Once Imperium will defeat all of its many enemies, Imperium will be gone for sure. And, no doubt, it will be bloody. Humans will gladly start to rip and tear each other apart with such ferocity, that Ork-angels will cry tears of joy by simply watching them from the skies and warp will generate new demons at the speed of light.
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Post by: Olgerth Istaarn
The only force with a realistic shot at domination are the Tyranids.
Let's look at each faction.
The Imperium is already large and it wants to hold on to what it has and maybe expand.
The Eldar of either stripe want to survive and expand.
The Orks want to fight.
Chaos wants to expand.
The Necrons want to kill everything.
The Tyranids want to eat everything and expand.
The Imperium is big. Really big. It suffers horrid setbacks, but on the grand scale it's like shooting an elephant with a .22. Any external enemy trying to dominate it will get bogged down like the French or the Nazis trying to conquer Russia. The most you can hope for against Imperium is to bite off a piece of it and hope nobody notices. And humans are tenacious, warlike, adaptable, and multiply like rabbits. The only enemy that has half a chance to actually conquer the Imperium is Chaos, and only through subversion. But there's just too goddamn much to subvert, and for every successful subversion there is a righteous and successful Imperial Faith zealot.
The Eldar can scheme and plot all they want, but they are too few in number and multiply too slowly. They can deliver painful blows and they can always run away, but meaningful expansion? Eh, give it another 40000 years, maybe, not really.
The Orks burn out too quickly. Even the biggest Waaagh will stomp everything in sight, and then eventually the next target will be too far, the Warboss will lose control sooner or later, and the Orks turn on each other or just wander orf - no more Waaagh.
Chaos can't win. Simple as that. Chaos thrives on strife, and if it ever consumes everything, it will then consume itself in short order. I think the Chaos Gods themselves realize that, and they'll never let it happen. They like being Chaos Gods after all.
So now we're down to Necrons and Tyranids, the two forces of nature that just want to kill everything. Between these two, it comes down to attrition, and Tyranids propagate faster than Necrons. Plus, Tyranids actually have means to subvert societies, whereas Necrons don't.
So at the end of time, it will be bugs vs. robots, and bugs win.
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Post by: Mental Surge
Peregrine wrote: Iron_Captain wrote:The Tau are not a threat in any way, no, but that is not their point. The point of the Tau is that they are the naive, reasonable guys in an unreasonable universe that is filled with all kinds of huge and insane threats and things they can barely comprehend.
That's not the point of the Tau at all. The Tau have two jobs in the fluff of 40k:
1) To be symbolic of the countless young civilizations that are constantly rising up all over the galaxy. They don't share the Imperium's idiocy about technology, so while they might not be a civilization-ending threat to the Imperium yet in the long run Tau technology will continue to advance beyond the point where the Imperium has any chance at all. Small numbers won't matter so much when a single gun drone is capable of annihilating entire sectors worth of Imperial planets (such a trivial task would be delegated to a barely-sentient gun drone, the Tau themselves have better things to do). And if the Tau fail someone else will rise up to replace them. That's what the "kill off the Tau" people don't seem to get, if you get rid of them you just create a new faction of Tau-in-all-but-name.
2) To highlight the sheer grimdark of the setting. The Tau are not "good buys" by any reasonable definition of the concept. They're an aggressive expansionist empire that embodies the worst of real-world imperialism, manifest destiny, etc, and would be clearly evil in any other setting. They're only "good" in that they're pragmatic enough to use science and technology to build a better gun to kill you with, and to offer you a chance to surrender and accept slavery under their rule instead of mindlessly slaughtering everything in sight. And yet the Tau are the bright shining hope of the setting. As much as they suck life under anyone else is suffering on such an unimaginable scale that every citizen of the Imperium should pray for the opportunity to become Tau slaves.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Inaphyt wrote:i think across all the millions of systems humanity controls one bright spark can develop a means to infiltrate the eye of terror and from that point - If humanity wanted they could obliterate them out of existence.
Hahahahahahahahahahah NO. You seem to be missing a rather important fact about the Imperium: innovation is heresy. That "one bright spark" would have very little hope of avoiding being possessed by a demon and slaughtering everything and everyone they loved (as they watch helplessly while the demon uses their body) before opening the literal gate to hell through which Things Mortals Cannot Know pour through into reality and turn whole planets into horrors so bad you will pray that death takes you first. And if they somehow managed to avoid this fate they would be executed for unspeakable heresy, then their families and everyone they ever met would be given honorable executions of their own to ensure that all memory of the "bright spark" and their blasphemous works is purged from the universe.
I don't know if I would call them slaves per say. Some of the Tau lore explicitly states that any races inducted in to the Empire (such as humans left behind by the useless imperium) are allowed to retain any and all beliefs as long as they don't result in conflicts with the Tau. In other words, youa re allowed to believe that the dead guy on the throne is a god, and that their is a 'machine spirit' so long as you obey the laws that everyone within the empire follows.
Xathrodox86 wrote:Orks and Tyranids are the biggest threat, lore wise. They're nigh unstopabble forces of nature that are too big to contain, unless by taking a drastic solution (Kryptmann).
I don't believe that in the 41st millenium Chaos should be considered a viable threat. The Gods had their chance and screwed it. They've played their hand openly 10K years earlier and now the Imperium knows about them, while their chosen warriors are fewer in number than ever before, languishing in the Eye, with inferior gear, tech and numbers. As soon as the IoM closes the Eye for good (which is possible, I think) the only realt problem with Chaos will be an occasional mad prophet and maybe a daemonic incursion or two, from time to time.
Of course GW tries to up the street cred of Chaos at every possible occasion, but telling people that "this is not our 13th (another one, damn it!) Crusade, but the last battle blah blah blah" dosen't make the threat any bigger. Just like making Abaddon competent all of a sudden. Looking at you ADB.
Uhhhh by that logic wouldn't chaos be unstoppable? Daemons are literally infinite in number and the chaos gods draw power from emotions, something that is not going away any time soon lol.
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Post by: Lord Damocles
Mindshackle Scarabs.
They can literally raise the dead, too.
Plus Necron-worshipping cults/followers are a thing, as evidenced by Dead Men Walking, The Necron Threat, Medusa V: Endgame.
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Post by: nareik
How dense actually is the Imperium?
I always got the impression that even though it stretched across the galaxy, it only controlled a small portion of habitable, profitable or strategic worlds.
^Diggas were thralls to necrons in addition to being ork cos players, weren't they?
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Post by: locarno24
How dense actually is the Imperium?
Mind-numbingly stupid at times.
.....Oh, you mean as in how close stars are together.
I always got the impression that even though it stretched across the galaxy, it only controlled a small portion of habitable, profitable or strategic worlds.
Definitely. It's the largest single 'empire' out there, but controls only a small proportion of the galaxy. The value which has been thrown around is "an empire of a million worlds" - which compared to the estimate of one hundred, thousand, million planets in the milky way is approximately one thousandth of a percent.
When you add in the fact that a lot of worlds are clustered up into sectors a couple hundred light-years on a side with anything from a dozen or so worlds to a hundred in that 'pocket', you're gonna be a looooong way between sectors out on the fringes of the Imperium.
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