So after the first weekend seems like the support for Traitor's Hate is lackluster at best. I actually like it, and think several new mechanics have been overlooked. I think CSM got what they were asking for in a lot of ways, and CSM players need to realize your never getting 3.5 codex level power again. Lets just remember where we came from with the last CSM codex.
So for no additional points in this book we got: Free Universal Veterans of the Long War, ObSec, Free Boon Roll per turn no combat required, and you can roll 2 boons and pick one or both...... That's just the new decurion. You have cultists squads that can revive to outflank 50% of the time, you can charge from deepstrike, fire twice with oblits per turn, attack twice with berserkers.....I'm not seeing the downside here.
A common complaint CSM players voice, we don't get free rhinos/vehicles/stuff. Well, looks like we have a free direct advantage vs imperium with VotLW, more chances for awesome character boosts, and the occasional Daemon Princes. Seems okay to me, feels pretty chaosy. More boon rolls, and a little safety from spawnhood.
Now the overlooked. Veterans of the Legions. By moving Cult CSM troops out of required or elite slots, you can field your 'legion' while still getting the benefits of every other formation. Want to play Deathguard? Slap some MoN on the Chaos Warband and add the VotL. Chances are your bringing whats in the warband anyways. Don't like the marine tax? (hate that expression by the way) Bring the Lost and the Damned....and turn them all into zombies while your at it with Typhus.
I understand that many of you are frustrated that this book did not catapult CSM to the top tier of competition. However, isn't some progress in the right direction a good thing?
If your a skeptic, please, dust off your CSM and play a few games. I'd love to hear some real experiences, not just armchair hate. If your on the fence, I say Traitor's Hate is a good read, and great upgrade to any CSM army.
Sidenote: I play Black Legion, so free VotLW is very nice and helpful for me.
I don't play chaos, I've never liked the filthy heretics.
Jokes aside, I've read through the book, and although I don't play CSM it seemed pretty powerful.
It's not 'meta' and it sure as hell isn't riptide wing or scatbike level.
I would like all codexes to be at this power level, it seems to have strong combinations, but is also fun and has the lore in mind, additionally it is inclusive for all forces and preferences of units being used.
TremendousZ wrote: I think CSM got what they were asking for in a lot of ways, and CSM players need to realize your never getting 3.5 codex level power again. Lets just remember where we came from with the last CSM codex.
I think what most CSM players were asking for is rules for Legions and good internal balance. It just so happens that the 3.5 codex happened to be the overpowered one that also had Legion rules in it, not that CSM players "want overpowered Legion rules." The two don't have to be mutually exclusive.
There's always this smug "lol you just want to be OP again get over it XD" tone you can tell a mile away from these posts. In all my time watching Chaos Space Marine players vent - and they do, it's true, rant a lot but not without good reason - have I ever seem them crave 3.5 power levels. What they want are the 3.5 OPTIONS. That is, being able to take an army that isn't a Nurgle Lord on a bike, with bikes, and minimum Cultist tax and a Helldrake. When people say they miss the 3.5 codex days, what they mean is they miss the options, the customisability, the uniqueness.
Traitor's Hate is more of the same. "You will take this units to stand a chance on the tabletop and you will like it, now shut up whining." The vast majority of CSM complainants don't want powerful, they want OPTIONS. You could make CSM's the most broken thing on the tabletop, but if everything outside of three units is absolutely worthless - even if those three units wipe the floor with Riptides and Knights - then people are still going to complain, because being shoehorned into taking 'powerful' units is bad. Yes, poor internal balance is not unique to CSMs, but they're one of the most flavourful, diverse and potentially unique armies out there that are shoehorned into a handful of units to so much a play the damn game and that's not even getting onto how they're more vanilla than the damn vanilla Space Marine codex. That's not what Night Lord players want, that's not what Word Bearers players want.
Nobody was expecting Traitor's Hate to suddenly revamp the codex, but I think people were hoping for more than some psychic powers and free VotLW.
TremendousZ wrote: So after the first weekend seems like the support for Traitor's Hate is lackluster at best. I actually like it, and think several new mechanics have been overlooked. I think CSM got what they were asking for in a lot of ways, and CSM players need to realize your never getting 3.5 codex level power again. Lets just remember where we came from with the last CSM codex.
So for no additional points in this book we got: Free Universal Veterans of the Long War, ObSec, Free Boon Roll per turn no combat required, and you can roll 2 boons and pick one or both...... That's just the new decurion. You have cultists squads that can revive to outflank 50% of the time, you can charge from deepstrike, fire twice with oblits per turn, attack twice with berserkers.....I'm not seeing the downside here.
The down side is that "Boons" of Chaos are a thing in the first place. Oh you get free VotLW? Well that's pretty useless now since taking the full formation gives you Hatred Armies of the Imperium. Free +1 Leadership? Just take the Icon of Vengeance for Fearless. Charge from Deepstrike? Cool too bad its disordered unlike everyone of the loyalist options to do that same thing.
A common complaint CSM players voice, we don't get free rhinos/vehicles/stuff. Well, looks like we have a free direct advantage vs imperium with VotLW, more chances for awesome character boosts, and the occasional Daemon Princes. Seems okay to me, feels pretty chaosy. More boon rolls, and a little safety from spawnhood.
Again, Boons are dumb.
Now the overlooked. Veterans of the Legions. By moving Cult CSM troops out of required or elite slots, you can field your 'legion' while still getting the benefits of every other formation. Want to play Deathguard? Slap some MoN on the Chaos Warband and add the VotL. Chances are your bringing whats in the warband anyways. Don't like the marine tax? (hate that expression by the way) Bring the Lost and the Damned....and turn them all into zombies while your at it with Typhus.
There are Legions other than the Cult Legions.
I understand that many of you are frustrated that this book did not catapult CSM to the top tier of competition. However, isn't some progress in the right direction a good thing?
Most people didnt want to be catapulted to the top, just to have options of the older books
If your a skeptic, please, dust off your CSM and play a few games. I'd love to hear some real experiences, not just armchair hate. If your on the fence, I say Traitor's Hate is a good read, and great upgrade to any CSM army.
Sidenote: I play Black Legion, so free VotLW is very nice and helpful for me.
I'll probably get it later on as I want to Return to CSM and Chaos in general, I picked up IA:13 for that reason and because Renegade Guard. But im not overly excited by Traitor's Hate, I do like the Possessed Formation though.
1. Boons aren't dumb when given for free.
2. Free LD9-10 is MUCH better than paying for the Fearless icon. That was really just complaining to complain.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 1. Boons aren't dumb when given for free.
2. Free LD9-10 is MUCH better than paying for the Fearless icon. That was really just complaining to complain.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 1. Boons aren't dumb when given for free.
2. Free LD9-10 is MUCH better than paying for the Fearless icon. That was really just complaining to complain.
Or perhaps they should just be higher leadership standard? And even when free boons are still dumb, they were an interesting concept when they first came out in Fantasy, but they have overstayed their welcome along with being required to do challenges.
Free LD9-10 is MUCH better than paying for the Fearless icon. That was really just complaining to complain.
They artificially lowered our LD score in the 6th ed codex for no other reason than to shoehorn VotLW into the unit entries. As VictorVonTzeentch points out, our LD should natural be higher to begin with.
As for "Traitor's Hate" as a whole? Total bust so far at my LGS. No one actually pre-ordered it as the CSM players are still very gun-shy about new rules. On looking through the store copy, a few people bought it and have run some games and the general consensus is that some of it's cool from a fluffy standpoint but outside of narrative games, Traitor's Hate does very little for CSM.
I plan on using the Raptor Talon formation because I already run a gaggle of Raptors (I just really like them), so it's a fun way to make them *slightly* better. It's still typical GW though. "We'll give your Warp Talon's the ability to assault out of DS, but it will be disordered and, oh yeah, you still can't have anything to help mitigate scatter. So enjoy that ..."
I think there are some sleeper formations in the book but they require so many expensive/subpar units that I don't know if they will really gain traction.
Lets just remember where we came from with the last CSM codex.
We're still pretty much there. Unfortunately Traitor's Hate really just underscores the bad shape the core book is still in.
So for no additional points in this book we got: Free Universal Veterans of the Long War, ObSec, Free Boon Roll per turn no combat required, and you can roll 2 boons and pick one or both...... That's just the new decurion. You have cultists squads that can revive to outflank 50% of the time, you can charge from deepstrike, fire twice with oblits per turn, attack twice with berserkers.....I'm not seeing the downside here.
The Boon table is terrible and simply needs to just go away. Your other points are a little misleading ... There are a lot of caveats/requirements to make a lot of those happen. I will likely run Kharn's formation but, like the Raptor Talon one, I'm running for fluff purposes because I already have the models and may as well out them to use. I'm not entirely sure how much better it really made them.
A common complaint CSM players voice, we don't get free rhinos/vehicles/stuff. Well, looks like we have a free direct advantage vs imperium with VotLW, more chances for awesome character boosts, and the occasional Daemon Princes. Seems okay to me, feels pretty chaosy. More boon rolls, and a little safety from spawnhood.
The common complaint is more that they can take free drop pods. A unit CSM don't even have access to. Free VotLW doesn't really stack up to that in any way shape or form. Especially when we already have such easy access to hatred to begin with. More boon rolls doesn't excite me and the boon table has A LOT of issues. I find that the few times I rolled the Dark Apotheosis result, my model either outright died (because there wasn't enough room for the demon model), or got WORSE as a result of becoming a demon prince.
Now the overlooked. Veterans of the Legions. By moving Cult CSM troops out of required or elite slots, you can field your 'legion' while still getting the benefits of every other formation. Want to play Deathguard? Slap some MoN on the Chaos Warband and add the VotL. Chances are your bringing whats in the warband anyways. Don't like the marine tax? (hate that expression by the way) Bring the Lost and the Damned....and turn them all into zombies while your at it with Typhus.
Nope. All they did with that was give us back something they took away in the newest codex for no reason. That's also just the four cult legions. CSM players have been asking for actual Legion rules (akin to Chapter tactics) for ages now. This comes no where close.
I understand that many of you are frustrated that this book did not catapult CSM to the top tier of competition. However, isn't some progress in the right direction a good thing?
I don't think anyone actually expected the new supplement to make CSM "Top Tier". Nothing shy of a complete rewrite from the ground up of the core codex will do that. I think the disappointment comes from the fact that most don't really even see this as "some progress in the right direction". It's typical GWCSM thinking. Here's bonus ... now here's 3 things that penalize you for taking that bonus. Here's a really great unit with excellent rules. Now here's the insane and terrible unit you'll have to take with it as a tax for this new formation ... It was a good try but it's just such a rough core codex that it needed a lot more than what Traitor's Hate gave it.
I don't think TH is BAD, I just don't think it helps enough. Is it better than nothing? Sure.
What I find is that it kind of just helped push the current style of CSM play which IMHO isn't in the "spirit of the game" for Chaos. Things like handwaving marks of chaos where they don't belong and saying they are really something else, allied detachments just to take the juicy formations only, encouraging MSU spam or not taking a core of Marines, pushing taking BL "allies" just for the Cyclopia Cabal to use the new powers, etc.
It's not bad at all. I just feel it exacerbates the problems instead of making strides to help them. I do not feel comfortable as a CSM player who likes non-marked forces to take marks or kind of pretend that X is really Y because X the way it's described doesn't work for my force (an example I constantly use is Mark of Nurgle and saying it's really bionic enhancement). I don't find that Traitor's Hate fixes any major issues, but it does provide some nice incentives to bring actual Marines, just it does so in a way that helps the min/max approach instead of the fluffy approach.
I've played against csm with new rules allready and can say that it adds some degree of variety indeed. There's finally a reason to field not just one min squad of termies, but 3 or 4! And a termie lord that gets a 40 pt discount. I bet that every second csm player has a termie indep that either doesn't see daylight or is pretending to be an obliterator.
2 Boons with choosing 1-2 is still random but in a more fateweaver-random way. There's almost no chance of failure - yep, you can still roll double spawns or dp and sspawn or dp and dp but MOST of the time you're getting at least something nice or really good.
For example, in the last game, 2 boons got a spawn out of infiltrating havok champion first turn. And this spawn proceeded to wreck an immolator, rout a squad of sisters with 4 meltas and than almost wreck a rhino. So, he payed off almost 10-fold. Than there was a DP out of a half-dead lord.
I think that boons are not to be underestimated. Random but far less so with this rules.
Also, there are some decent tourney lists to be seen involving solo nurgle spawns that can be technically spammed in insane numbers.
All in all, i think they polished a turd quite well.
TremendousZ wrote: So after the first weekend seems like the support for Traitor's Hate is lackluster at best. I actually like it, and think several new mechanics have been overlooked. I think CSM got what they were asking for in a lot of ways, and CSM players need to realize your never getting 3.5 codex level power again. Lets just remember where we came from with the last CSM codex.
So for no additional points in this book we got: Free Universal Veterans of the Long War, ObSec, Free Boon Roll per turn no combat required, and you can roll 2 boons and pick one or both...... That's just the new decurion. You have cultists squads that can revive to outflank 50% of the time, you can charge from deepstrike, fire twice with oblits per turn, attack twice with berserkers.....I'm not seeing the downside here.
A common complaint CSM players voice, we don't get free rhinos/vehicles/stuff. Well, looks like we have a free direct advantage vs imperium with VotLW, more chances for awesome character boosts, and the occasional Daemon Princes. Seems okay to me, feels pretty chaosy. More boon rolls, and a little safety from spawnhood.
Now the overlooked. Veterans of the Legions. By moving Cult CSM troops out of required or elite slots, you can field your 'legion' while still getting the benefits of every other formation. Want to play Deathguard? Slap some MoN on the Chaos Warband and add the VotL. Chances are your bringing whats in the warband anyways. Don't like the marine tax? (hate that expression by the way) Bring the Lost and the Damned....and turn them all into zombies while your at it with Typhus.
I understand that many of you are frustrated that this book did not catapult CSM to the top tier of competition. However, isn't some progress in the right direction a good thing?
If your a skeptic, please, dust off your CSM and play a few games. I'd love to hear some real experiences, not just armchair hate. If your on the fence, I say Traitor's Hate is a good read, and great upgrade to any CSM army.
Sidenote: I play Black Legion, so free VotLW is very nice and helpful for me.
First of all I agree with most people here. It's not about how powerful it is. The base codex is still as bland as ever and does a very poor job of representing CSM. TH does very little to rectify that. And for those harping on about how legions aren't a thing? Even the cult legions are big enough to have several sub factions. Hell, Black Legion alone lists 9 other sub factions in their supplement, some of which are large enough to list several Warlords just for that faction. If that's not reason enough to give csm some kind of overarching traits akin to chapter tactics and give the various legions some flavour I dunno what is. TH does nothign to change that.
VotLW is just a bad mechanic and it doesn't get much better when you give it for "free". Hatred( faction) is not a good mechanic imho, especially not when you have to pay 3-5 points for it. It's unfair towards that faction and it becomes utterly pointless vs other factions. Not knowing which faction you are going to face just makes it even worse. It's not really free either. In order to get that, you have to use the decurion, which is more limiting that it appears at first sight. Almost all formations require you to take character, which will more often then not be 100+ points. And you have to take a minimum of 3 units, and if you then also want some kind of guarantee to use a specific power, you need at least 3-4 lvl 3 psykers adding another 300+ points. Your average decurion is going to run you at least 300 points in characters alone. Which is not only somewhat limiting in terms of building your list, it also goes against the fluff of csm following one strong leader. Again, that wouldn't be so bad if we could use something like the 30k lieutenants, but isntead you need a minimum of 2 actual chaos lords unless you pick the cultists. In which case you have take a dark apostle, which should actually be at least as strong as a lord from a fluff perspective. (should only be a word bearers thing actually)
The boon table can go straight to hell, free or not. It's a horrible mechanic. Sure getting a free boon or two is better, but its still a horrible mechanic. KDK do the whole god reward thing much better. Apotheosis is bad and there are too many pointless results.
TremendousZ wrote:you can charge from deepstrike, fire twice with oblits per turn, attack twice with berserkers
Yea, except we have no reserve manipulation, no deepstrike mitigation and if you do manage to get close enough? It's a disordered charge, immediately making one of the marks worthless. And I could live with a disordered charge, but then you compare it to marines who get the same, except with mitigation and a charge bonus. What makes this so much better that we have to jump through so many hoops?
The oblits are ok, but they are too restricted with their weapons. In order to really benefit from the formation you want to deepstrike in, but then you realize the warpsmith can't get close enough to buff them because he can't get a bike/mount/jump pack for some arbitrary reason. Which also why it does nothing to improve mutilators.
And the buff for berzerkers is also just ok. You still have to somehow get them into assault in the first place, and they're still too expensive. +3 inch helps but not enough to allow them to footslog and the rhino still prevents them from assaulting. And the double attacks? Eh. What's the likelyhood that you charge, don't destroy the unit in your phase OR the opponents following phase? Because it's only then that you get to do that extra attack. That's going to be fairly rare And if you want to make it into combat somewhat reliably? You need a bunch of sorcerers that then again take up a good chunk of your list and is also really unfluffy. And even then you're jsut catapulting one of minimum four units.
Other formations are dubious too. Vector striking pinned/GtG units?, yea, good luck with that. And terminators that suffer from all the deepstrike problems and then get to fire their oneshot weapons twice...oh wait..they don't. Then you get hatred to charge them afterwards, except they can't and will more than likely be shot of the board. Unless you take large units, which makes deepstriking even more risky not to mention hella expensive considering you have to take a minimum of three.
TremendousZ wrote:By moving Cult CSM troops out of required or elite slots, you can field your 'legion' while still getting the benefits of every other formation.
Umm, no. Unlocking the cult units of your choice is as easy as buying a mark on your lord of choice in cad, not to mention the purge detachment which needs elites as the only compulsory choice. And nothing is stopping you from taking formations along side your CAD. TH does nothing to help with that. And the CAD does it better too. Want a zombie army? Take typhus and as many cultists as you can field, no need for an apostle or other auxiliaries. TH is not one bit more fluffy then what we had before. It just does it badly in a different way.
That said, I bought traitors hate and it does give us more options. I even think its one more step in the right direction for GW. I also think it does more good then bad, and yet, that right direction is still somewhere way off on the horizon.
I am also very dissapointed in the psychic powers and lack of relics. Space marines and even daemons got 4 completely unique and flavourful powerful psychic disciplines. Instead, we get yet another copy and paste job. I don't care how powerful they are. Was it really so much to ask to get our own? Plus I don't like how they tried to chaosify them. It makes zero sense. These are not sorceries, they are psychic powers. And not only that, they are the same "noble" powers. They aren't corrupted at all. it makes no sense to give them a different description when they are the literally the same.
And where are the relics? Again, not only did marines and daemons get them, the blood angels book was released back to back with TH and they got yet another set of relics. There is no reason whatsoever that CSM should be left in the dark.
Sidenote: I play Black Legion and the free VotLW doesn't do squat for me as I prefer to use FW units, which require a normal CAD and thus I still have to pay the tax. Plus the formations are cheaper (they require less units) and I hate spamming the same unit, which TH does in spades. Playing in lower points games makes TH very difficult to use efficiently.
Now the overlooked. Veterans of the Legions. By moving Cult CSM troops out of required or elite slots, you can field your 'legion' while still getting the benefits of every other formation. Want to play Deathguard? Slap some MoN on the Chaos Warband and add the VotL. Chances are your bringing whats in the warband anyways. Don't like the marine tax? (hate that expression by the way) Bring the Lost and the Damned....and turn them all into zombies while your at it with Typhus.
I may have read this wrong, but Cult troops aren't even available in the Chaos Warband? If you think that marking Chaos Marines with Slaanesh gives me my Noisemarines warband descended from the Emperor's Children, including Noise Terminators and Assault Noisemarines, then clearly there's no conversation to be had here.
Now the overlooked. Veterans of the Legions. By moving Cult CSM troops out of required or elite slots, you can field your 'legion' while still getting the benefits of every other formation. Want to play Deathguard? Slap some MoN on the Chaos Warband and add the VotL. Chances are your bringing whats in the warband anyways. Don't like the marine tax? (hate that expression by the way) Bring the Lost and the Damned....and turn them all into zombies while your at it with Typhus.
I may have read this wrong, but Cult troops aren't even available in the Chaos Warband? If you think that marking Chaos Marines with Slaanesh gives me my Noisemarines warband descended from the Emperor's Children, including Noise Terminators and Assault Noisemarines, then clearly there's no conversation to be had here.
While true to a point, I don't think it's exactly true. I never liked the idea that ALL Emperor's Children legionnaires became Noise Marines (same with World Eaters, Death Guard.. well Thousand Sons are kind of a weird outlier I guess). I'm not saying that "Veterans of the Legion" stuff in any way makes up for it, but I do think it's not out of the fluffy realm to have like a Slaanesh themed army with CSM squads and whatnot with Mark of Slaanesh, and then your Noise Marines are your elite guys (kinda like how the Kakophoni are in 30k) that have fully given themselves over. I think that can be made kinda fluffy, honestly. Cult Troops are a formation, they aren't in the Chaos Warband itself. Now yes I do admit 100% that we need Cult Terminators back. I also would like if giving the appropriate mark allowed access to the specific weapons (I want to say this was the case in 3.5 but I don't remember) so like a squad of CSM or even Raptors and Havocs w/Mark of Slaanesh could take noise marine weapons in place of special/heavy weapons. That, again, could be pretty fluffy as an Emperor's Children warband with CSM squads with noise weapons, Raptors with noise weapons ("Assault Noisemarines"), Cult Terminators and then again, actual Noise Marines as the elite troopers.
Again the biggest problem with this book is that it doesn't bring back the feel of Chaos. It's not a bad book, just Chaos has seemingly lost most of its flavor and is now pretty bland, because for whatever reason GW refuses to give back the things that really made Chaos stand out.
I always assumed that Cult units like Terminators and Raptors went away to match the fluff better. There weren't Noise Terminators in the Heresy, and still aren't, at least as far as Forge World is concerned. Nor are there Noise Raptors. Kakaphoni are power-armoured noise troopers for the Emperor's Children, and that's the extent of noise troopers for the Emperor's Children, even as early as the heresy.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I always assumed that Cult units like Terminators and Raptors went away to match the fluff better. There weren't Noise Terminators in the Heresy, and still aren't, at least as far as Forge World is concerned. Nor are there Noise Raptors. Kakaphoni are power-armoured noise troopers for the Emperor's Children, and that's the extent of noise troopers for the Emperor's Children, even as early as the heresy.
That was always my interpretation though.
Because surely no Terminator saw a Blastmaster or Sonic Blaster (which also didnt exist in the Heresy, so by your qualifiers shouldnt exist) and thought; "I need to get me one of those." What's the excuse for no Plague Terminators? Death Guard used plenty of Terminators. Rubric Terminators? Surely they would have been created. Terminator Berzerkers? Oh wait, FW does have those, they are called Red Butchers.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I always assumed that Cult units like Terminators and Raptors went away to match the fluff better. There weren't Noise Terminators in the Heresy, and still aren't, at least as far as Forge World is concerned. Nor are there Noise Raptors. Kakaphoni are power-armoured noise troopers for the Emperor's Children, and that's the extent of noise troopers for the Emperor's Children, even as early as the heresy.
That was always my interpretation though.
Because surely no Terminator saw a Blastmaster or Sonic Blaster (which also didnt exist in the Heresy, so by your qualifiers shouldnt exist) and thought; "I need to get me one of those." What's the excuse for no Plague Terminators? Death Guard used plenty of Terminators. Rubric Terminators? Surely they would have been created. Terminator Berzerkers? Oh wait, FW does have those, they are called Red Butchers.
Yeah, Red Butchers should come back. Good point. Maybe the ravening lunatics got themselves wiped out - even the Legions had far far fewer terminators than conventional troops.
As for whether or not a terminator saw a sonic blaster, well, I am sure Imperial terminators saw lascannons and multi-meltas too but seem to have some inexplicable aversion. Units simply don't have access to certain weapons; chalk it up to a geneseed flaw.
As for Rubric terminators, we don't know anything about the Thousand Sons terminators. Maybe they all got obliterated during the battle for Prospero? Wait until book VII, then complain.
As for plague terminators, terminators with Mark of Nurgle exist. That would represent corrupted, pustulent-ridden terminators who were in the Legion.
The core of the legions, remember, were power-armoured troops. It's no surprise that these troops are the core of modern warbands made from that legion, as the number of elite forces that survived the heresy dwindles.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean heck, the little fluff blurb in the Heresy book about Red Butchers goes out of its way to mention how few survived the first battle of the Horus Heresy. How many do you think made it through the Scouring and the intervening years?
Unit1126PLL wrote: I always assumed that Cult units like Terminators and Raptors went away to match the fluff better. There weren't Noise Terminators in the Heresy, and still aren't, at least as far as Forge World is concerned. Nor are there Noise Raptors. Kakaphoni are power-armoured noise troopers for the Emperor's Children, and that's the extent of noise troopers for the Emperor's Children, even as early as the heresy.
That was always my interpretation though.
Because surely no Terminator saw a Blastmaster or Sonic Blaster (which also didnt exist in the Heresy, so by your qualifiers shouldnt exist) and thought; "I need to get me one of those." What's the excuse for no Plague Terminators? Death Guard used plenty of Terminators. Rubric Terminators? Surely they would have been created. Terminator Berzerkers? Oh wait, FW does have those, they are called Red Butchers.
Yeah, Red Butchers should come back. Good point. Maybe the ravening lunatics got themselves wiped out - even the Legions had far far fewer terminators than conventional troops.
As for whether or not a terminator saw a sonic blaster, well, I am sure Imperial terminators saw lascannons and multi-meltas too but seem to have some inexplicable aversion. Units simply don't have access to certain weapons; chalk it up to a geneseed flaw.
As for Rubric terminators, we don't know anything about the Thousand Sons terminators. Maybe they all got obliterated during the battle for Prospero? Wait until book VII, then complain.
As for plague terminators, terminators with Mark of Nurgle exist. That would represent corrupted, pustulent-ridden terminators who were in the Legion.
The core of the legions, remember, were power-armoured troops. It's no surprise that these troops are the core of modern warbands made from that legion, as the number of elite forces that survived the heresy dwindles.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean heck, the little fluff blurb in the Heresy book about Red Butchers goes out of its way to mention how few survived the first battle of the Horus Heresy. How many do you think made it through the scouring and the intervening years?
Considering the fact that using a Sonic Weapon doesnt require your Geneseed, thats a stupid suggestion. Lascannon and Multi-Melta Comparison is bad as well, those are heavy and Sonic Blasters are a Boltgun, Besides there were Terminators that had Multi-Meltas, they were called Justaerin and guess which Legion they were? Not a Loyal one.
Mark of Nurgle doesn't covey the same effect as being a Plague Marine, there is little reason they shouldn't have some sort of Toxic Based defense, like Grave Wardens.
Since Plague Marines, Noise Marines and Berzekers are not limited to just the Legions. Its silly to assume that new Terminator Traitors wouldn't become Plague/Sonic/Berzerkers. So the argument that they are the Elite Force of Heresy doesn't really stack up either.
The Red Butchers could easily have been replaced after the first battle and been supplanted by the INCREASING numbers of Insane Killers, a number of them having Terminator armor. But also see the above, being a World Eater is not a pre-requisite of being a Khorne Berzerker anymore than being Emperor's Children is a requirement for being a Noise Marine. The only "Elite" Cult troop that would be dwindling would be the 1ksons and even then, they probably have a method of calling souls back to suits of armor.
For a long, long while, CSM have been bleeding out of a huge wound from head to crotch. Applying some band aids here and there is nice and all, but does not solve the main issue: the current CSM codex is a pile of gak.
And sadly band aids are the only thing CSM will be getting until a new edition shows up. Guess who's going to be the first, experimental unpolished codex of the new edition? Yay.
I don't quite understand your post. If you're saying Terminators should have access to Sonic Blasters because they're a standard rapid fire weapon, then I think Loyalist terminators should have access to Plasma Guns, as they also replace boltguns in certain units.
I suppose what I am trying to say is that GW changed the fluff:
The Leman Russ was a fast tank, faster than a baneblade, until 6th edition, and then that was reversed.
The Chaos legions had cult terminators and whatnot available until fourth edition, and then that, too, was retconned, both out of the rules and out of the fluff (I have never read any Chaos novel that has non-power-armour Cult troops that cannot be represented on the tabletop with the existing rules).
IG players don't complain about the awkward fact that the Baneblade's top speed is three times that of the Russ, even though that change is only one edition old, while I have seen Chaos players complain that GW changed their fluff three editions ago.
Unit1126PLL wrote:I don't quite understand your post. If you're saying Terminators should have access to Sonic Blasters because they're a standard rapid fire weapon, then I think Loyalist terminators should have access to Plasma Guns, as they also replace boltguns in certain units.
I suppose what I am trying to say is that GW changed the fluff:
The Leman Russ was a fast tank, faster than a baneblade, until 6th edition, and then that was reversed.
The Chaos legions had cult terminators and whatnot available until fourth edition, and then that, too, was retconned, both out of the rules and out of the fluff (I have never read any Chaos novel that has non-power-armour Cult troops that cannot be represented on the tabletop with the existing rules).
IG players don't complain about the awkward fact that the Baneblade's top speed is three times that of the Russ, even though that change is only one edition old, while I have seen Chaos players complain that GW changed their fluff three editions ago.
Im not even particularly in need of Cult Termies, Im just saying there are reasons that they could. Im saying that the should be able to have Noise Termies because why not, literally what does it hurt? What does it hurt to have Cult Terminators? How would it be different from the various flavors of Loyalist Terminators or Chapter Tactics?
DaPino wrote:Holy gak, going throughthis thread made me realize just what people mean when all CSM players do is complain.
"I don't see how charging from DS makes my raptors/warp talons more useful" -> Facepalm
"We should have high Ld to begin with instead of getting free VoTLW" -> Literally two sides of the same coin
Sigh. And this is why genuine complaints get discredited with the "all CSM players are so salty" argument.
No one said it doesnt make them more useful, just that they aren't as useful their Loyalist Counter parts that get to do the same thing but better.
They should have high Ld, they had high Ld in the last codex, only for it to be taken away and turned into a Tax. One that first had to be bought, and now comes free if you play this specific way, but half of the "bonus" if you want to call Hatred Space Marines a bonus, is irrelevant because the over all formation gives the Hatred Armies of the Imperium, which you guessed it, includes Space Marines. Sure, the free +1 Leadership is good but its hardly a bonus to jump up and down over.
Unit1126PLL wrote:I don't quite understand your post. If you're saying Terminators should have access to Sonic Blasters because they're a standard rapid fire weapon, then I think Loyalist terminators should have access to Plasma Guns, as they also replace boltguns in certain units.
I suppose what I am trying to say is that GW changed the fluff:
The Leman Russ was a fast tank, faster than a baneblade, until 6th edition, and then that was reversed.
The Chaos legions had cult terminators and whatnot available until fourth edition, and then that, too, was retconned, both out of the rules and out of the fluff (I have never read any Chaos novel that has non-power-armour Cult troops that cannot be represented on the tabletop with the existing rules).
IG players don't complain about the awkward fact that the Baneblade's top speed is three times that of the Russ, even though that change is only one edition old, while I have seen Chaos players complain that GW changed their fluff three editions ago.
Im not even particularly in need of Cult Termies, Im just saying there are reasons that they could. Im saying that the should be able to have Noise Termies because why not, literally what does it hurt? What does it hurt to have Cult Terminators? How would it be different from the various flavors of Loyalist Terminators or Chapter Tactics?
What different flavours? Chaos termies have more options than loyalist termies.
As for what it would hurt... *shrug.* What would it hurt to give all Guard troops choices the option for carapace like they had in 4th? What would it hurt to give the Doctrines system back to guard as an alternative to chapter tactics?
Guard lost as much flexibility and customizability as CSM but for some reason whine less.
Again, It's great that GW threw us a bone, but the same stuff still applies to this release as it always does for chaos. They keep handing out renegade stuff and we don't want it. We want Legions! I don't know how hard it is for them to figure out that like 90% of the chaos marine playing community wants chaos legions back. All you need to do is look at how well HH is doing and put 2 and 2 together.
There's some useful stuff, there's some not so useful stuff in TH but lets be honest. The play style of Chaos Marines simply does not work anymore. We are an assault army with almost no access to assault vehicles and too slow to catch anything important. We also have no means of deep strike mitigation or reserves manipulation.
Until GW gives us Traitor legions, rules, models and formations that make it possible to build an entirely fluffy and semi-competitive army which includes full psychic disciplines, proper marks, proper cult units like terminators/ havocs/ bikes etc. and Relics for every traitor legion. I refuse to acknowledge a job well done.
edit: When I say proper cult units, I mean the whole army. If Plague Marines have 5+ feel no pain, and fear. Then everything in the army must have those same rules when playing Death Guard. If Noise Marines have access to sonic weapons, all Emperor's Children units must have access to sonic weapons.
This book is for our last remaining CSM-player pretty useless. Because we have a houserule since nobody wanted to play against Tau, Eldar, Necrons and AdMech-Convocation anymore: No Formations, except Clowns.
Too bad, his only other army are Orks.....
As long he don´t want to get steamrolled by Decurion; shot by D-weapons; meet some crazy suits; getting skyhammered or something dump like that(Its kind of a "Balance of Terror"-situation: If somebody fields a Formation, the others will bring it too.....).
Also: Shifting Worldscape is banned here(as well as DftS), because it just caused very unpleasant "discussions". When I say 40k is a mess right now, I refer to that. Long discussions on that topics are the reason why I stay the hell away from tournaments and rather play 30k this days.
Brutus_Apex wrote: Again, It's great that GW threw us a bone, but the same stuff still applies to this release as it always does for chaos. They keep handing out renegade stuff and we don't want it. We want Legions! I don't know how hard it is for them to figure out that like 90% of the chaos marine playing community wants chaos legions back. All you need to do is look at how well HH is doing and put 2 and 2 together.
This is, I think, the long and short of it. It's not a question of power (although, it is, and traitors hate is a step in the right direction) as much as not being the product the Chaos players want.
The demand, at least vocally and among every Chaos player I've met in the last six years, is for Codex: World Eaters, and Codex: Deathguard, and Codex: Alpha Legion, and so on. It's why the "dinobots" met with such revulsion, I think. If they had come with a Codex: Dark Mechanicus, players would have shrieked with delight. But, GW cant quite seem to thread the needle between "this is a Khorne army" and "this is a World Eater army", and so they cant quite conceive of the narrowly focused product players seem to want.
And I think that has to do with the background. Very few legions are intact enough to have entire fighting forces from the same legion.
I think GW are trying to make their fluff (that most legions shattered long ago, and that the unique thing about Abbadon was the ability to call back together such a shattered force) match with the crunch (that you can no longer take a mono-legion army).
And as for flavourful terminators? Wut?
DG grave wardens should be all but lethal to be around. They would be perfect for GW to introduce too. It would be as easy as being a dark mirror to the Dark Angel knights. But instead of gaining toughness they'd reduce the Strength of the enemy unit. With the usual fnp and what have you. Maybe even two wounds. Adapt the price to whatever is appropriate, but that is the kind of stuff csm should be rocking.
World eater themed terminators could have rampage and HoW with higher strength, maybe sweep but no guns. Thrashing around, charging with no regard to themselves. The red butchers don't have to have survived to still exist. Even back then they were the equivalent of humanoid chaos dreads. Strap some crazy into a dreadnaught armour and let him loose. Said armour could easily enough be retrieved later.
Not sure about the other cults, but most of the legions, loyalist or not, had some kind of special terminator unit. It would only make sense to give csm something similar in 40k. Only warped in some form. Until we that kind of stuff, we'll always just be faceless villains. DG used dangerous radiation based weaponry even before they fell and the y only got more resilient after their fall. Give us appropriate weapons that might even hurt us for all I care and balance it towards fnp and iwnd if they are strong, risk /reward and all that. Anything. I just want to play legions with appropriate fluffy rules rather than spacemarines -1 with spikes. And that has to happen on the codex level.
And as for flavourful terminators? Wut?
DG grave wardens should be all but lethal to be around. They would be perfect for GW to introduce too. It would be as easy as being a dark mirror to the Dark Angel knights. But instead of gaining toughness they'd reduce the Strength of the enemy unit. With the usual fnp and what have you. Maybe even two wounds. Adapt the price to whatever is appropriate, but that is the kind of stuff csm should be rocking.
World eater themed terminators could have rampage and HoW with higher strength, maybe sweep but no guns. Thrashing around, charging with no regard to themselves. The red butchers don't have to have survived to still exist. Even back then they were the equivalent of humanoid chaos dreads. Strap some crazy into a dreadnaught armour and let him loose. Said armour could easily enough be retrieved later.
Not sure about the other cults, but most of the legions, loyalist or not, had some kind of special terminator unit. It would only make sense to give csm something similar in 40k. Only warped in some form. Until we that kind of stuff, we'll always just be faceless villains. DG used dangerous radiation based weaponry even before they fell and the y only got more resilient after their fall. Give us appropriate weapons that might even hurt us for all I care and balance it towards fnp and iwnd if they are strong, risk /reward and all that. Anything. I just want to play legions with appropriate fluffy rules rather than spacemarines -1 with spikes. And that has to happen on the codex level.
Fundamentally, what would you say the distinction between Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines is in the fluff? As in, on the battlefield against, say, the Tau, how would the Tau tell the difference between Loyalist Marines and Traitor Marines?
Unit1126PLL wrote: And I think that has to do with the background. Very few legions are intact enough to have entire fighting forces from the same legion.
I think GW are trying to make their fluff (that most legions shattered long ago, and that the unique thing about Abbadon was the ability to call back together such a shattered force) match with the crunch (that you can no longer take a mono-legion army).
GW isn't doing a good job at that then. Both forgeworld and Gw have listed several sub factions amongst the remnants of the legions. The legions were huge and them splitting up is no different than the loyalist chapters. They don't have any reason not to give us a similar treatment in terms of unique rules and units per legion. The difference in how the individual smaller warbands wage war would be equivalent to different armies under those codices. Just like loyalists.
I just don't get how GW can keep being so wrong about how they approach csm. And why they have such a massive hard-on for khorne. We have enough khorne formations to rival KDK by now. The trinity of blood, kharns butcher horde , the maelstrom of gore, the hounds of abaddon. we even have two versions of the trinity and maelstorm. Kytans, blood slautherers, brass scorpions, 3 varieties of blood thirsters.... the list goes on, you get the point.
Nor do I understand why they so consistenly half ass csm. KDK was a pretty poor excuse for a codex compared to what they could have done. Even daemons seem to get better treatment. They got their own new disciplines and relics.
To be perfectly honest what I think they need to do to give chaos its own identity is to make use of the demon weapons like what the war engines have. Ectoplasma, baleflamers, hades autocannons, etc. Basically chaos hereteks push new weaponry unlike the imperium with their religious overtones. So chaos doesbt get copies of loyalist stuff, they get dark mirrors. Imagine like a chaos only predator variant with hades autocannons or baleflamer or an ectoplasma cannon. Let chaos evolve into its own distinct flavor and not just spiky Marines with less cool weapons.
If they had put in Legion Tactics, I would have loved Traitor's Hate. As it is however, I am okay with it. It helps some, but is a far cry from what I would say most CSM players wanted.
As much as I would like Legion tactics I think what is better is to give chaos their own identity with enough flavor and customisation that we don't need to have the same things that the Loyalists get because we will have enough flexibility to make up each Legion without needing special rules for them all. I think the key to this is, besides what I said about about making use of warp infused weapons, is to bring back the veteran traits from the 3.5 codex that way we can customize our troops and that is what we get Legion tactics from. Squad wide, not army wide.
I actually think this helps address the warband/Legion problem. I mean with this book you can actor units a fluffy IW list or a fluffy-ish Nighlords list. Not to mention World Eaters or Red Corsairs.
We got a hell of a lot of buffs, mostly for free and some pretty legit formations. Not riptidewing, but if Chaos got something that powerful most CSM players would whine about how we became too OP and can't get a game in. We've got more supplements than any other standing army (finally a pretty damn good one) we can ally battle brothers with 3 armies as opposed to the loyalists 4, and with TH fluffy Legion lists are possible.
We could use a few points drops and "Legion Traits" to solidify special snowflake heretic xhapters, but Christ what else do you want? !
Looks like we got some good discussions here. I knew this would open a big can of worms, sorry if my post reeked of smugness...as one put it.
Compared to older codexes, we have had it pretty decent. Explain the old phase out rules to a new gamer, or the 11 year tau codex, not to mention the long hiatus DE had before being updated in 5th. Wishing for 3.5, is like wanting one of the 5th Ward codexes.
Look on the bright side, we got a slight update to boost our armies until 8th. Mainly, we avoid having a DA 6th edition debacle.
I liked the complaint about free +1 LD too. I'm tired of running away and being swept in combat! How does this help me!? Rabble rabble rabble
And as for flavourful terminators? Wut?
DG grave wardens should be all but lethal to be around. They would be perfect for GW to introduce too. It would be as easy as being a dark mirror to the Dark Angel knights. But instead of gaining toughness they'd reduce the Strength of the enemy unit. With the usual fnp and what have you. Maybe even two wounds. Adapt the price to whatever is appropriate, but that is the kind of stuff csm should be rocking.
World eater themed terminators could have rampage and HoW with higher strength, maybe sweep but no guns. Thrashing around, charging with no regard to themselves. The red butchers don't have to have survived to still exist. Even back then they were the equivalent of humanoid chaos dreads. Strap some crazy into a dreadnaught armour and let him loose. Said armour could easily enough be retrieved later.
Not sure about the other cults, but most of the legions, loyalist or not, had some kind of special terminator unit. It would only make sense to give csm something similar in 40k. Only warped in some form. Until we that kind of stuff, we'll always just be faceless villains. DG used dangerous radiation based weaponry even before they fell and the y only got more resilient after their fall. Give us appropriate weapons that might even hurt us for all I care and balance it towards fnp and iwnd if they are strong, risk /reward and all that. Anything. I just want to play legions with appropriate fluffy rules rather than spacemarines -1 with spikes. And that has to happen on the codex level.
Fundamentally, what would you say the distinction between Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines is in the fluff? As in, on the battlefield against, say, the Tau, how would the Tau tell the difference between Loyalist Marines and Traitor Marines?
Between loyalists and your average traitor? Nothing. Unless they pick up some plague marines maybe and start summoning daemons. A couple of possessed would not be unreasonable. Space marines don't typically distort their bodies to grow wings.
Legionnaires on the other hand are steeped in the daemonic, with their hatred actually manifest. They affect the world around them. Warping it, breaking it. Reconnaisance would probably give reports of dark rituals, sacrifices and such. That much is true for all of them. Not sure how space marines deal with innocent citizens or children, but I imagine csm would be a tad less inhibited.
Should they face deathguard or typhus, the dead would walk, swarms of flies would blot out the sun. Suffice to say it wouldn't be a pleasant sight and very different to a marine attack.
Doubly so should a daemonic primarch appear. Everything around mortarion just dies, including the ground he walks on.
The difference between world eaters and flesh tearers would probably seem minimal to a tau, initally. At least until they start observing effects like those with described in khorne daemonkin. The world eaters would be relentless and the longer the fighting goes on the more rabid they would become. Blood would fill the air. They would be using the same strategies, only to find out they're not working. Space marines aren't in the habit of cleaving through a tank with an axe after all. Nor do space marines come back from the dead.
Even just visually they would seem different. Marines are more or less proper. With csm the more recent traitors wouldn't look that different, safe for a few horns and skulls here and there, but that's really not that much of a departure from loyalists. The more veteran marines though can appear hulking and it can be hard to tell where the armour stops and the flesh begins. Their armour might seem (and be) alive. Tentacles and various appendages like extra arms. If you go by the rpgs, the sky's the limit really. Up to and including flickering from existance. Even being headless is a possibility. And it doesn't stop with the marines. The tau might snipe the pilot out of a tank, only to have the tank turn towards them on its own. Maybe being replaced by a huge bulging eyeball.
And then there are phenomena like with the crimson slaughter. The impossible become reality with all the horrors that entails. the night lords were infamous for creating terror BEFORE their fall to chaos. Fighting csm, no matter the legion, would have a very VERY different effect on the taus's morale. Seeing your comrades heads explode is one thing, witnessing their souls being ripped out of their bodies only to be literally devoured is on a whole other level. Or being turned inside out, or seeing a csm getting turned inside out....and walking away, coming right at you, howling with a guttural roar, the very walls around you shifting. Yea, I think they'd realize those aren't your average space marines pretty fast XD
And as for flavourful terminators? Wut?
DG grave wardens should be all but lethal to be around. They would be perfect for GW to introduce too. It would be as easy as being a dark mirror to the Dark Angel knights. But instead of gaining toughness they'd reduce the Strength of the enemy unit. With the usual fnp and what have you. Maybe even two wounds. Adapt the price to whatever is appropriate, but that is the kind of stuff csm should be rocking.
World eater themed terminators could have rampage and HoW with higher strength, maybe sweep but no guns. Thrashing around, charging with no regard to themselves. The red butchers don't have to have survived to still exist. Even back then they were the equivalent of humanoid chaos dreads. Strap some crazy into a dreadnaught armour and let him loose. Said armour could easily enough be retrieved later.
Not sure about the other cults, but most of the legions, loyalist or not, had some kind of special terminator unit. It would only make sense to give csm something similar in 40k. Only warped in some form. Until we that kind of stuff, we'll always just be faceless villains. DG used dangerous radiation based weaponry even before they fell and the y only got more resilient after their fall. Give us appropriate weapons that might even hurt us for all I care and balance it towards fnp and iwnd if they are strong, risk /reward and all that. Anything. I just want to play legions with appropriate fluffy rules rather than spacemarines -1 with spikes. And that has to happen on the codex level.
Fundamentally, what would you say the distinction between Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines is in the fluff? As in, on the battlefield against, say, the Tau, how would the Tau tell the difference between Loyalist Marines and Traitor Marines?
Between loyalists and your average traitor? Nothing. Unless they pick up some plague marines maybe and start summoning daemons. A couple of possessed would not be unreasonable. Space marines don't typically distort their bodies to grow wings.
Legionnaires on the other hand are steeped in the daemonic, with their hatred actually manifest. They affect the world around them. Warping it, breaking it. Reconnaisance would probably give reports of dark rituals, sacrifices and such. That much is true for all of them. Not sure how space marines deal with innocent citizens or children, but I imagine csm would be a tad less inhibited.
Should they face deathguard or typhus, the dead would walk, swarms of flies would blot out the sun. Suffice to say it wouldn't be a pleasant sight and very different to a marine attack.
Doubly so should a daemonic primarch appear. Everything around mortarion just dies, including the ground he walks on.
The difference between world eaters and flesh tearers would probably seem minimal to a tau, initally. At least until they start observing effects like those with described in khorne daemonkin. The world eaters would be relentless and the longer the fighting goes on the more rabid they would become. Blood would fill the air. They would be using the same strategies, only to find out they're not working. Space marines aren't in the habit of cleaving through a tank with an axe after all. Nor do space marines come back from the dead.
Even just visually they would seem different. Marines are more or less proper. With csm the more recent traitors wouldn't look that different, safe for a few horns and skulls here and there, but that's really not that much of a departure from loyalists. The more veteran marines though can appear hulking and it can be hard to tell where the armour stops and the flesh begins. Their armour might seem (and be) alive. Tentacles and various appendages like extra arms. If you go by the rpgs, the sky's the limit really. Up to and including flickering from existance. Even being headless is a possibility. And it doesn't stop with the marines. The tau might snipe the pilot out of a tank, only to have the tank turn towards them on its own. Maybe being replaced by a huge bulging eyeball.
And then there are phenomena like with the crimson slaughter. The impossible become reality with all the horrors that entails. the night lords were infamous for creating terror BEFORE their fall to chaos. Fighting csm, no matter the legion, would have a very VERY different effect on the taus's morale. Seeing your comrades heads explode is one thing, witnessing their souls being ripped out of their bodies only to be literally devoured is on a whole other level. Or being turned inside out, or seeing a csm getting turned inside out....and walking away, coming right at you, howling with a guttural roar, the very walls around you shifting. Yea, I think they'd realize those aren't your average space marines pretty fast XD
So how do you reflect that on the tabletop? Add spikes? Have a unit of possessed and some daemons? Have a possessed vehicle?
All of these are already possible. I guess my question is that they want chaos to not be 'spiky marines' but fundamentally, that's all they are. 'Spiky marines' is basically what you describe - warped flesh, psychic powers, and daemons are all already on the tabletop, arguably in spades. You can make the dead walk with Typhus, you can have your sorcerers enact dark rituals that pull Daemons from the warp and onto the battlefield...
And as for flavourful terminators? Wut?
DG grave wardens should be all but lethal to be around. They would be perfect for GW to introduce too. It would be as easy as being a dark mirror to the Dark Angel knights. But instead of gaining toughness they'd reduce the Strength of the enemy unit. With the usual fnp and what have you. Maybe even two wounds. Adapt the price to whatever is appropriate, but that is the kind of stuff csm should be rocking.
World eater themed terminators could have rampage and HoW with higher strength, maybe sweep but no guns. Thrashing around, charging with no regard to themselves. The red butchers don't have to have survived to still exist. Even back then they were the equivalent of humanoid chaos dreads. Strap some crazy into a dreadnaught armour and let him loose. Said armour could easily enough be retrieved later.
Not sure about the other cults, but most of the legions, loyalist or not, had some kind of special terminator unit. It would only make sense to give csm something similar in 40k. Only warped in some form. Until we that kind of stuff, we'll always just be faceless villains. DG used dangerous radiation based weaponry even before they fell and the y only got more resilient after their fall. Give us appropriate weapons that might even hurt us for all I care and balance it towards fnp and iwnd if they are strong, risk /reward and all that. Anything. I just want to play legions with appropriate fluffy rules rather than spacemarines -1 with spikes. And that has to happen on the codex level.
Fundamentally, what would you say the distinction between Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines is in the fluff? As in, on the battlefield against, say, the Tau, how would the Tau tell the difference between Loyalist Marines and Traitor Marines?
One has spikes and skulls everywhere. The other only has skulls. It's a pretty obvious distinction.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 1. Boons aren't dumb when given for free.
2. Free LD9-10 is MUCH better than paying for the Fearless icon. That was really just complaining to complain.
Or perhaps they should just be higher leadership standard? And even when free boons are still dumb, they were an interesting concept when they first came out in Fantasy, but they have overstayed their welcome along with being required to do challenges.
And outright ruined the property value of the entire daemon codex with their squatting within it.
A decent base Codex? A playable cult army that isn't khorne based? Some sort of updated armoury that allows CSM to compete on a level playing field? Updated models that don't have half their details lost to mold degradation or rely on resin upgrade packs? Any sort of justification for why a warpsmith is 110 points with worse gear and options compared to a 65 point techmarine, why the only 2+ armour available to a CSM character is Terminator armour or a crimson slaughter relic, A reason why a vanilla marine chapter master has more wounds and more attacks than a chaos lord who should be the epitome of an astartes warrior, Why we have so many units in our Codex that were utter junk when it was released, let alone after 4 years of suffering insanities like the eldar codecies?
More importantly than all of that, how about a Codex that focuses on the legions like 90% 'ish of the CSM community has been screaming out for for the last 10 years?
DaPino wrote: Holy gak, going throughthis thread made me realize just what people mean when all CSM players do is complain.
"I don't see how charging from DS makes my raptors/warp talons more useful" -> Facepalm
"We should have high Ld to begin with instead of getting free VoTLW" -> Literally two sides of the same coin
Sigh. And this is why genuine complaints get discredited with the "all CSM players are so salty" argument.
They just try to match the csm fluff.
"My dad loves my other brother more than he loves me! Oh, i hate him so much, i'm gona riot and go wreck Terra and stuff".
A decent base Codex? A playable cult army that isn't khorne based? Some sort of updated armoury that allows CSM to compete on a level playing field? Updated models that don't have half their details lost to mold degradation or rely on resin upgrade packs? Any sort of justification for why a warpsmith is 110 points with worse gear and options compared to a 65 point techmarine, why the only 2+ armour available to a CSM character is Terminator armour or a crimson slaughter relic, A reason why a vanilla marine chapter master has more wounds and more attacks than a chaos lord who should be the epitome of an astartes warrior, Why we have so many units in our Codex that were utter junk when it was released, let alone after 4 years of suffering insanities like the eldar codecies?
More importantly than all of that, how about a Codex that focuses on the legions like 90% 'ish of the CSM community has been screaming out for for the last 10 years?
You know what Guard want? Tanks to be playable again.
You know what bugs want? ANY invuln outside floating brainbugs.
You know what DE want? Not to have been booty-played by the Jink FAQ.
You know what BA want? The same things we want only our dex is now upper middle tier and theirs is still gak.
I already a dressed the outdated points. I pointed out the releases allow us to run most of the prevalent legions. I guarantee that if we get legion tactics the same people clammoring for them in this thread would turn around and cry about being even more like spikey marines. What Legion are you trying to run that you can't currently represent on the table?
For Christ's sake there are people in this thread whining about a free LD upgrade. And TWO free stat buffs for characters. That fact alone says more than I ever can.
For Christ's sake there are people in the Blood Angels thread whining about a free +1 I. AND free Zealot (Hatred and Psuedo-Fearless) for under-strength units. That fact alone says more than I ever can.
And both are still gak. BA have a worse core formation but everything else is on par or better (like access to Grav Devs and new relics). Even then, you aren't even forced to use that Core so you can use a better Formation instead that allows you to spam drop Sternguard if you so desire.
Care to link me to this BA thread? Seriously, I'd love to see what they got that isn't mostly useless (aside from grav cannons with no proper delivery system).
Better yet, can you link me to some kind of proof they actually got grav cannons and zealot (sans character ) that isnt just dakka wishlisting? If you're talking about the same RUMIRS I've heard, it's basically going to be codex DC (kinda defeating the position of bringing anything else). If you cant, and you're talking about BSF, this has been beaten to death, resurrected and beaten to death again. BSF is terribad.
I'll be the first to admit that's some dumb gak to whine about (even though I'll take a better sergeant and LD 9 all day every day over +1 I in an army that can't make it to combat)... Unless it comes at the expense of petty stuff like obsec.
Until GW gives us Traitor legions, rules, models and formations that make it possible to build an entirely fluffy and semi-competitive army which includes full psychic disciplines, proper marks, proper cult units like terminators/ havocs/ bikes etc. and Relics for every traitor legion. I refuse to acknowledge a job well done.
edit: When I say proper cult units, I mean the whole army. If Plague Marines have 5+ feel no pain, and fear. Then everything in the army must have those same rules when playing Death Guard. If Noise Marines have access to sonic weapons, all Emperor's Children units must have access to sonic weapons.
Observation? The Chaos Space Marine Codex with the 'Books of Chaos' legion section didn't have plague terminators with feel no pain.
I never understood people's reaction to this. The Chaos Space Marine book which included Plague Marines as a distinct unit to Nurgle Chaos Space Marines was the first one to do this.
If you want every unit in your army to be identical rules-wise, take the mark of nurgle on everything, and you are identical to the 3.5 edition death guard.
If you want an army comprised entirely of the 'better-than-this' plague marines, etc, then take Typhus and plague marines, or necrosius in a Purge detachment.
Again, It's great that GW threw us a bone, but the same stuff still applies to this release as it always does for chaos. They keep handing out renegade stuff and we don't want it. We want Legions! I don't know how hard it is for them to figure out that like 90% of the chaos marine playing community wants chaos legions back. All you need to do is look at how well HH is doing and put 2 and 2 together.
I still don't get why the Black Legion detachment isn't a 'legion' force. You can make a perfectly fluffy and effective list for any of the undivided legions - which, as a black legion detachment, is all it's trying to do.
It offers unlimited cultists for alpha legion daemons for word bearers, improved raptor forces for night lords, siege daemon engines for iron warriors, and frothing nutbars with axes for world eaters.
Yeah, Red Butchers should come back.
Was planning on using Khornate Mutilators for them, as it happens. With the new formation they can deliver faintly ridiculous levels of 'dear god not the face'.
Again, Boons are dumb.
The Boon table is terrible and simply needs to just go away.
They're annoyingly unreliable, but they are pretty good - epecially with the new detachment. The problem is that they aren't very powerful bonuses, and it's unpredictable what you get, and you need to murder another character to get it - which is a problem, because chaos marine characters aren't much better than other characters.
The good bit is that they're permenant - which is why being able to pick up one or two on the first couple of turns makes it much better - because you can then carry them into the assault, which makes winning much more likely....which gives you more access to boons, and so on. You're also much less likely to accidentally spawnhood or daemonhood yourself unless you want to.
The new disciplines are also very effective - yes, they're a copy/paste of the marine ones, but chaos marines are not a copy/paste of space marine librarians - they're able to get a higher mastery level, and have access to the freakin' awesome spell familiar, allowing you to cast more powers with less dice - meaning (a) more psychic explodyness for your warp charge and (b) less perlis of the warp.
Plus there are a few other minor difference - for example, whilst the Heretch powers are identical to the Technomancy powers, chaos vehicles don't have Power Of The Machine Spirit - therefore there's a minor benefit there. Sorcerors can be a much scarier proposition in melee even before psychic powers hit - because they have access to marks of chaos, and an Iron Halo equivalent, for example.
We did have it first. Just saying.
Index Astartes - which was both loyalist and traitor chapters - had it first, to be fair. The first 'index astartes' army list was the Black Templars.
You do lose ObSec as neither of the Core Formations have it (unless one of the Auxiliary Formations has it), however you do get several Auxiliaries that are better than the Chaos ones, and one Core Formation that can be really strong if you equip its units right (the Drop Sternguard spam I was talking about).
Overall as Formations go, they're pretty bad like most of the Chaos ones from Traitor's Hate.
I'm quite impressed actually. Awesome they get scouting/Outflanking Baal Preds again. Outflanking LR'S is pretty gnarly. I can't find anything to complain about. Admittedly, most of them are pretty bad, but there are a few gems in there. Hard to rate against TH to be fair. I'd probably put TH on top, but only because the blooded demi company is six kinds of gak. Partially made up for by ATSKNF though.
All in all I can't see why BA players would bitch. Our Codex is terrible, and Exterminatus was pretty bad, but this looks pretty cool.
Thanks for the link to the page. I didn't get beyond pg 2 in that thread because it's basically 8 pages of this thread.
Ankhalagon wrote: This book is for our last remaining CSM-player pretty useless. Because we have a houserule since nobody wanted to play against Tau, Eldar, Necrons and AdMech-Convocation anymore: No Formations, except Clowns.
Too bad, his only other army are Orks.....
As long he don´t want to get steamrolled by Decurion; shot by D-weapons; meet some crazy suits; getting skyhammered or something dump like that(Its kind of a "Balance of Terror"-situation: If somebody fields a Formation, the others will bring it too.....).
Also: Shifting Worldscape is banned here(as well as DftS), because it just caused very unpleasant "discussions". When I say 40k is a mess right now, I refer to that. Long discussions on that topics are the reason why I stay the hell away from tournaments and rather play 30k this days.
I don't think 40K is a mess in a friendly setting. My group of 8 people has 0 problems with anything you described because we keep it civil. Our Eldar and Tau player realize armies like CSM and Guard can't do gak against them if they bring their best and as such they don't.
Also, no formations is a useless rule because it changes nothing to the overall ranking of armies. If anything, formations are a good gapcloser as long as the very strong codices don't bring their very strong formations and the weaker army can bring some formations.
The fact that your group can't manage itself to set up fair fights is entirely your groups fault and has nothing to do with 40K as a game system. 40K was unbalanced before formations became a thing; if people wanted a fair fight one side had to tone it down most of the time aswell.
A decent base Codex? A playable cult army that isn't khorne based? Some sort of updated armoury that allows CSM to compete on a level playing field? Updated models that don't have half their details lost to mold degradation or rely on resin upgrade packs? Any sort of justification for why a warpsmith is 110 points with worse gear and options compared to a 65 point techmarine, why the only 2+ armour available to a CSM character is Terminator armour or a crimson slaughter relic, A reason why a vanilla marine chapter master has more wounds and more attacks than a chaos lord who should be the epitome of an astartes warrior, Why we have so many units in our Codex that were utter junk when it was released, let alone after 4 years of suffering insanities like the eldar codecies?
More importantly than all of that, how about a Codex that focuses on the legions like 90% 'ish of the CSM community has been screaming out for for the last 10 years?
This is a SUPPLEMENT. GW always advertised it as a SUPPLEMENT. if you expected a new codex, you sir need to learn to check your expecations.
And I think that has to do with the background. Very few legions are intact enough to have entire fighting forces from the same legion.
Some of the biggest and most important Legions are still properly intact. Word Bearer's are actually massive, Iron Warriors are still intact and of course the Black Legion actually have their supplement. On top of that, there are many Legions that are still operating in smaller groups such as the Knight Lords and Alpha Legion.
Plus, saying "They're not intact enough" is kind of a cop-out. You can still have rules for those small isolated pockets. Those groups aren't going to quit using their tactics just because they're now in a group of 50 instead of 500. The Cult legions for example don't suddenly lose their "cultiness" just because there's a single squad of 5 of them stuck in an otherwise non-marked army.
What different flavours? Chaos termies have more options than loyalist termies.
They have more weapon options. Weapons that are weaker and less point efficient than the loyalist counterparts. Cult terminators are something we used to actually have (via Chaptor approved). They are represented in the fluff as well.
As for what it would hurt... *shrug.* What would it hurt to give all Guard troops choices the option for carapace like they had in 4th? What would it hurt to give the Doctrines system back to guard as an alternative to chapter tactics?
Guard lost as much flexibility and customizability as CSM but for some reason whine less.
The thing is, Guard certainly lost a lot in their new book. For sure. Their last book was pretty good. Guard is a book that goes up and down with the editions. CSM has consistently gone down for multiple editions now. It has become less coherent, weaker, and less "fluffy" with each new codex. It's a very consistent downward trend.
"I don't see how charging from DS makes my raptors/warp talons more useful" -> Facepalm
Not a single person said that. Not one. The point about that was GW should have allowed Warp Talons to assault from DS from day one. They are so expensive and so fragile that without that they are nigh unplayable in 6th and 7th. So they finally give us that but oh, since you're Chaos, here's a catch ... CSM, Orks and Nids are the only books (IMO) that consistently do more to handicap and penalize their players than help them.
"We should have high Ld to begin with instead of getting free VoTLW" -> Literally two sides of the same coin
No. We've always had high LD to represent the 1000's of years a lot of the CSM have been alive. We lost that in the new book. They dropped our LD and then said "but hey! It's not all bad! You can pay a per-model tax to get that back." Everything in that book is already overpriced to begin with. We don't need one more tax. Imagine if the Loyalists were told in their next codex "You no longer get ATSKNF and we dropped you're leadership by one, but you can get all that back by paying for it". Marine players would riot (rightly so IMO).
The "free" VoTLW" in this case isn' really free AND it's redundant with a lot of abilities in that formation. That's on top of the sub-par tax units that have to be taken. It's not really free and it's something we shouldn't have to pay for to begin with.
This is a SUPPLEMENT. GW always advertised it as a SUPPLEMENT. if you expected a new codex, you sir need to learn to check your expecations.
From my perspective, I was just kind of hoping that TH would address a few problems with the main codex in a more productive way. I didn't expect a huge power boost or anything like that. Just a few half-decent stop gaps. It fails at that.
I DO think it allows a fluffier force that looks a little more like Chaos than the main codex does, but, IMO, TH is really only a boost in narrative type games IMO. Nothing wrong with that, but I think a lot of people were hoping for something that would help a little more with the competitive side.
Ankhalagon wrote: This book is for our last remaining CSM-player pretty useless. Because we have a houserule since nobody wanted to play against Tau, Eldar, Necrons and AdMech-Convocation anymore: No Formations, except Clowns.
Too bad, his only other army are Orks.....
As long he don´t want to get steamrolled by Decurion; shot by D-weapons; meet some crazy suits; getting skyhammered or something dump like that(Its kind of a "Balance of Terror"-situation: If somebody fields a Formation, the others will bring it too.....).
Also: Shifting Worldscape is banned here(as well as DftS), because it just caused very unpleasant "discussions". When I say 40k is a mess right now, I refer to that. Long discussions on that topics are the reason why I stay the hell away from tournaments and rather play 30k this days.
I don't think 40K is a mess in a friendly setting. My group of 8 people has 0 problems with anything you described because we keep it civil. Our Eldar and Tau player realize armies like CSM and Guard can't do gak against them if they bring their best and as such they don't.
Also, no formations is a useless rule because it changes nothing to the overall ranking of armies. If anything, formations are a good gapcloser as long as the very strong codices don't bring their very strong formations and the weaker army can bring some formations.
The fact that your group can't manage itself to set up fair fights is entirely your groups fault and has nothing to do with 40K as a game system. 40K was unbalanced before formations became a thing; if people wanted a fair fight one side had to tone it down most of the time aswell.
We do. See my first post. Still changes nothing for our CSM with his complete disfunct codex. Or the Tyranids(2 players till 5th edition, now gone....). Or two DE-players, of whom one doesn´t showing up anymore... Nobody likes that messy formations here.
The problem are not the formations that much. Its the external and internal balance as a whole.
That's what he's saying though. Formations for the weaker armies would help the external balance with the stronger armied. Limit the big boys to a CAD and an allied Detatchment. Let the crap codices bring a formation or two if they want. This was not a bad book at all. But if your meta is riptides, Eldar and grav spam, I don't know why you expect the guys running weaker books to show up just to get stomped. Formations would probably help a bit... but this brings us back to DA Pinos point about managing your group.
My local groups run everything from fluffy DE to hard mode Necrons and SM, yet we manage to have fun every time we roll dice.
Dantes_Baals wrote: That's what he's saying though. Formations for the weaker armies would help the external balance with the stronger armied. Limit the big boys to a CAD and an allied Detatchment. Let the crap codices bring a formation or two if they want.
I'm not going to play a game with someone and use formations but tell them they can't use their formations in order for me to have fun with my army. I'll just keep all my Chaos stuff buried in the closet and play a different army.
And I think that has to do with the background. Very few legions are intact enough to have entire fighting forces from the same legion.
Some of the biggest and most important Legions are still properly intact. Word Bearer's are actually massive, Iron Warriors are still intact and of course the Black Legion actually have their supplement. On top of that, there are many Legions that are still operating in smaller groups such as the Knight Lords and Alpha Legion.
Plus, saying "They're not intact enough" is kind of a cop-out. You can still have rules for those small isolated pockets. Those groups aren't going to quit using their tactics just because they're now in a group of 50 instead of 500. The Cult legions for example don't suddenly lose their "cultiness" just because there's a single squad of 5 of them stuck in an otherwise non-marked army.
What different flavours? Chaos termies have more options than loyalist termies.
They have more weapon options. Weapons that are weaker and less point efficient than the loyalist counterparts. Cult terminators are something we used to actually have (via Chaptor approved). They are represented in the fluff as well.
As for what it would hurt... *shrug.* What would it hurt to give all Guard troops choices the option for carapace like they had in 4th? What would it hurt to give the Doctrines system back to guard as an alternative to chapter tactics?
Guard lost as much flexibility and customizability as CSM but for some reason whine less.
The thing is, Guard certainly lost a lot in their new book. For sure. Their last book was pretty good. Guard is a book that goes up and down with the editions. CSM has consistently gone down for multiple editions now. It has become less coherent, weaker, and less "fluffy" with each new codex. It's a very consistent downward trend.
"I don't see how charging from DS makes my raptors/warp talons more useful" -> Facepalm
Not a single person said that. Not one. The point about that was GW should have allowed Warp Talons to assault from DS from day one. They are so expensive and so fragile that without that they are nigh unplayable in 6th and 7th. So they finally give us that but oh, since you're Chaos, here's a catch ... CSM, Orks and Nids are the only books (IMO) that consistently do more to handicap and penalize their players than help them.
"We should have high Ld to begin with instead of getting free VoTLW" -> Literally two sides of the same coin
No. We've always had high LD to represent the 1000's of years a lot of the CSM have been alive. We lost that in the new book. They dropped our LD and then said "but hey! It's not all bad! You can pay a per-model tax to get that back." Everything in that book is already overpriced to begin with. We don't need one more tax. Imagine if the Loyalists were told in their next codex "You no longer get ATSKNF and we dropped you're leadership by one, but you can get all that back by paying for it". Marine players would riot (rightly so IMO).
The "free" VoTLW" in this case isn' really free AND it's redundant with a lot of abilities in that formation. That's on top of the sub-par tax units that have to be taken. It's not really free and it's something we shouldn't have to pay for to begin with.
This is a SUPPLEMENT. GW always advertised it as a SUPPLEMENT. if you expected a new codex, you sir need to learn to check your expecations.
From my perspective, I was just kind of hoping that TH would address a few problems with the main codex in a more productive way. I didn't expect a huge power boost or anything like that. Just a few half-decent stop gaps. It fails at that.
I DO think it allows a fluffier force that looks a little more like Chaos than the main codex does, but, IMO, TH is really only a boost in narrative type games IMO. Nothing wrong with that, but I think a lot of people were hoping for something that would help a little more with the competitive side.
Marine players wouldn't riot over losing ATSKNF. I have no clue where you get that idea from. I forget it exists half the time. It it made Marines cheaper, I say go for it.
Dantes_Baals wrote: That's what he's saying though. Formations for the weaker armies would help the external balance with the stronger armied. Limit the big boys to a CAD and an allied Detatchment. Let the crap codices bring a formation or two if they want.
I'm not going to play a game with someone and use formations but tell them they can't use their formations in order for me to have fun with my army. I'll just keep all my Chaos stuff buried in the closet and play a different army.
You don't have to tell them they can't, but if they had any intention of keeping the game fun for everyone they wouldn't bring the strongest formations of the strongest armies to the table against the weaker armies. They'd keep that for when they face others with armies of similar strength. It's really as simple as that.
Telling people to deal with it or nudging them on to just get meta armies when there's a way to make it work that requires a bit more effort is both lazy and inconsiderate.
I can't speak for a competitive setting since the goal of that is to roll as much face as possible, but there's no good excuse for telling people they can't use rules if it ends up making the game more fair.
Does that mean it's fair that some get to use formations and some do not? No, but the fact that one codex gets better rules than another isn't fair either and it's up to the players to even that out as much as possible as long as GW doesn't.
Marine players wouldn't riot over losing ATSKNF. I have no clue where you get that idea from. I forget it exists half the time. It it made Marines cheaper, I say go for it.
You're missing a key point. In this example, you would lose ATSKNF AND a leadership point. You would then be charged points to get them back. It would make your troops objectively worse AND more expensive at the same time ...
EDIT:
They specifically want ATSKNF, which is not something they should just get for being Marines.
No one has said that. Your comment is also a but silly IMO considering other Marines get it "just for being Marines" lol
That said, personally, no, I actually don't want it. I always felt like the fact that CSM got higher Leadership but Loyalists got ATSKNF was actually kind of fluffy. Your response in this particular instance is typical of the counter arguments CSM players often see.
CSM player:
We lost our high LD and have to pay to get it back. That's not cool.
Counter Argument:
"You just just want ATSKNF. You can't have it, that's silly."
CSM player:
"We would like our Legion rules back (or some real semblance of them)"
Counter:
"You just want Chapter Tactics! You can't have them!"
CSM Player:
"I wish we some kind of drop pod (or some similar mechanic) in the main codex"
Counter:
"Why do you need that!? Just play Forgeworld!"
CSM Player:
"Guys, I got some Forgeworld stuff. Mind if I use it?"
Counter:
"Forgeworld is OP! We don't allow it!"
Notice how in every instance the main complaint is not inly ignored, but actually also taken out of context AND deliberately exaggerated or subtly altered from what the real complaint was. These are all real world examples that have happened time and time again on this board. Ugh ...
So how do you reflect that on the tabletop? Add spikes? Have a unit of possessed and some daemons? Have a possessed vehicle?
All of these are already possible. I guess my question is that they want chaos to not be 'spiky marines' but fundamentally, that's all they are. 'Spiky marines' is basically what you describe - warped flesh, psychic powers, and daemons are all already on the tabletop, arguably in spades. You can make the dead walk with Typhus, you can have your sorcerers enact dark rituals that pull Daemons from the warp and onto the battlefield...
what, precisely, is missing from this image?
First off, wow. We seem to have a VERY different idea of what a spikey marine is. I could make another long post about what's missing but I think instead I'll just refer to 30k.
Take a look at red butchers vs grave wardens. Different profiles, different costs, different weapon options, unique rules and that's not even considering the overarching legion rules and rites of war. They play and most importantlyfeel very differently And it's not just those two units that are very different from each other.
Here you have all these different legions of space marines, none of which are physically all that corrupted or using warp fuelled powers. And yet they have such massively different rules and units. Despite being essentially the same. Rules that work more or less well mechanically but also convey the spirit of those legions quite well. Fast forward to 40k and the differences between marines and chaos marines only becomes much greater and the same goes for differences between legions/warbands. Everything becomes enhanced.
Where marines get get black knights vs thunderwolf cavalry, or deathwing knights vs centurions, we get.... rage or +1T ? Come on, is that the best we can do? Seriously? It might not be the perfect comparison but I hope you get my point.
Daemons got their own unique psychic powers, marines get them. Daemons, tau and hell, even nids all got new units. We got a reprint of kharn that is functionally exactly the same. I suppose we got knights, even though they aren't a csm unit per se. And yet, they are a pale shadow of the imperial knights who get formations and relics and can be fielded on their own. It wouldn't be csm/heretics unless it was half assed after all. But I know they CAN do it, they just don't for god knows what reason.
My point is that the base codex is bland as hell and is outdated in terms of points and to a certain degree even rules. Changing unit roles sure adds flavour in the age of formations. Even though that particular rule works better than formations for cult legions imho.
Supplements like TH can't fix those issues. They can only apply a band aid. This one happens to be a pretty one for the most part, but it's still just a band aid. The base dex is as generic as generic gets, but that's not what people want. We (read I) want the various legions to have some identity beyond just a different paintjob. It doesn't have to be legions either. I'm perfectly fine with generic Cult codices like the KDK. But then change them to include their respective legions. The Bloodtithe system is awesome for example and applies to all khorne worshippers equally as far as I'm concerned. And don't just copy paste... They should have at least added berzerkers on juggernaughts or dreadclaws.
THEN you can add supplements with formations and specific relics and what have you. Don't get me wrong though, I like Traitors hate despite some of it's glaring issues. It's just not what CSM need and what people want.
TremendousZ wrote: So after the first weekend seems like the support for Traitor's Hate is lackluster at best. I actually like it, and think several new mechanics have been overlooked. I think CSM got what they were asking for in a lot of ways, and CSM players need to realize your never getting 3.5 codex level power again. Lets just remember where we came from with the last CSM codex.
So for no additional points in this book we got: Free Universal Veterans of the Long War, ObSec, Free Boon Roll per turn no combat required, and you can roll 2 boons and pick one or both...... That's just the new decurion. You have cultists squads that can revive to outflank 50% of the time, you can charge from deepstrike, fire twice with oblits per turn, attack twice with berserkers.....I'm not seeing the downside here.
A common complaint CSM players voice, we don't get free rhinos/vehicles/stuff. Well, looks like we have a free direct advantage vs imperium with VotLW, more chances for awesome character boosts, and the occasional Daemon Princes. Seems okay to me, feels pretty chaosy. More boon rolls, and a little safety from spawnhood.
Now the overlooked. Veterans of the Legions. By moving Cult CSM troops out of required or elite slots, you can field your 'legion' while still getting the benefits of every other formation. Want to play Deathguard? Slap some MoN on the Chaos Warband and add the VotL. Chances are your bringing whats in the warband anyways. Don't like the marine tax? (hate that expression by the way) Bring the Lost and the Damned....and turn them all into zombies while your at it with Typhus.
I understand that many of you are frustrated that this book did not catapult CSM to the top tier of competition. However, isn't some progress in the right direction a good thing?
If your a skeptic, please, dust off your CSM and play a few games. I'd love to hear some real experiences, not just armchair hate. If your on the fence, I say Traitor's Hate is a good read, and great upgrade to any CSM army.
Sidenote: I play Black Legion, so free VotLW is very nice and helpful for me.
A good player has the ability to evaluate a codex without needing to play a dozen games. Remember the talk about wraithknights and scat bikes when the eldar codex came out, or the gladius hype when codex SM came out, turns out that its easy to evaluate good units/rules when you understand the rules of the game. Sorry but respawning cultits, twice shooting termies or extra round of attacks from khorne bezerkers are not game winning. If you want to celebrate a codex that takes a third rate army to second rate at best, have at it. And stop bringing up 3.5 like anybody in the world thinks or expects us to go back to the glory days. I would take some legion rules and points adjustments, i got niether and my chaos army which i have invested thousands of dollars in, will continue to sit on my shelf.
Taking a sorc cabal with a KDK formation or chaos demons and no actual chaos marines is not my idea of a chaos space marine army.
Marine players wouldn't riot over losing ATSKNF. I have no clue where you get that idea from. I forget it exists half the time. It it made Marines cheaper, I say go for it.
You're missing a key point. In this example, you would lose ATSKNF AND a leadership point. You would then be charged points to get them back. It would make your troops objectively worse AND more expensive at the same time ...
EDIT:
They specifically want ATSKNF, which is not something they should just get for being Marines.
No one has said that. Your comment is also a but silly IMO considering other Marines get it "just for being Marines" lol
That said, personally, no, I actually don't want it. I always felt like the fact that CSM got higher Leadership but Loyalists got ATSKNF was actually kind of fluffy. Your response in this particular instance is typical of the counter arguments CSM players often see.
CSM player:
We lost our high LD and have to pay to get it back. That's not cool.
Counter Argument:
"You just just want ATSKNF. You can't have it, that's silly."
CSM player:
"We would like our Legion rules back (or some real semblance of them)"
Counter:
"You just want Chapter Tactics! You can't have them!"
CSM Player:
"I wish we some kind of drop pod (or some similar mechanic) in the main codex"
Counter:
"Why do you need that!? Just play Forgeworld!"
CSM Player:
"Guys, I got some Forgeworld stuff. Mind if I use it?"
Counter:
"Forgeworld is OP! We don't allow it!"
Notice how in every instance the main complaint is not inly ignored, but actually also taken out of context AND deliberately exaggerated or subtly altered from what the real complaint was. These are all real world examples that have happened time and time again on this board. Ugh ...
The layout of the codex is fine. Outside of the Black Legion, how organized are the CSMs? Not very well. Even Iron Warriors aren't so terribly well organized, so having that much to work with makes sense. CSMs are much more cowardly than the Loyalist counterparts, but when they stop being cowards and win a challenge, sometimes the Gods reward them. Ergo, the lower LD but Boon mechanic makes sense.
What really needs to be fixed is point costs and such, and for different fixes in the main rule book. Also nobody outside of Jancoran thinks FW stuff is OP in this modern day and age.
Also I wouldn't care about having to deal with LD 7/8 on its own because LD is one of the least important stats in the game due to how you can work around it. That's why Freakshow lists won't ever be that big of a thing. If I got 1-2 points off my Bikers for -1 LD and/or losing ATSKNF, I'd be all over it.
The layout of the codex is fine. Outside of the Black Legion, how organized are the CSMs? Not very well. Even Iron Warriors aren't so terribly well organized, so having that much to work with makes sense. CSMs are much more cowardly than the Loyalist counterparts, but when they stop being cowards and win a challenge, sometimes the Gods reward them. Ergo, the lower LD but Boon mechanic makes sense.
Cowardly? All of them? A blanket statement which is patently false. There are numerous examples of CSM being every bit as courageous as the loyalist counterparts (albeit while enacting evil plans).
The boon mechanic is silly and terrible. Period. KDK handles this MUCH better. For example, becoming a Demon Prince should NEVER EVER make you WORSE than you were before you became one. Yet they have set it up so that is often what happens when you become a DP off the boon table. It's too much meaningless rolling for incredibly little result the rest of the time. Too much book keeping.
What really needs to be fixed is point costs and such, and for different fixes in the main rule book. Also nobody outside of Jancoran thinks FW stuff is OP in this modern day and age.
Agreed on all points. The FW thing is something I've seen happen specifically when CSM players try to improve by using FW. I personally am not saying FW is OP. It is not. It's just a weird thing I've seen happen.
I DO think that in addition to points cost though, they need to rethink close to half (if not more) of the units in the book. They are just that poorly done. Despite the main book being a 6th ed codex, it is still running off 5thed (and in some cases 4thed) mechanics that no longer function. I was really hoping TH would help mitigate that, but it really didn't. It came close in a few instances, but not close enough and only with a few units.
Also I wouldn't care about having to deal with LD 7/8 on its own because LD is one of the least important stats in the game due to how you can work around it. That's why Freakshow lists won't ever be that big of a thing. If I got 1-2 points off my Bikers for -1 LD and/or losing ATSKNF, I'd be all over it.
That's fair enough, but in actual practice, many CSM players have found that the extra LD point actually makes a very real difference. We don't really have that many options for keeping guys from running away. Take a 60pt icon? Sure! Oh crap ... got sniped out turn 1 ... lol
It's depressing reading the constant complaining from other CSM players. People should probably come to terms with the fact their own faction will never be exactly as they want them to be, and even if they got what they wanted there will be lots of other players who want more, or wanted different things to begin with.
Legion specific rules would be awesome, but from what I recall of the 3.5 codex you can make fluffier legion lists now than you could back then. Word Bearers, Night Lords, Black Legion and Iron Warriors all seem like they're in a better place than they were. Not so much with Alpha Legion, but the sheer choice 40k offers to list building now provides the player with more ways to realise a fluffy vision of their own army on the tabletop.
Stuff like cult terminators, raptors, havocs etc. would be cool, but model and paint appropriately marked units and you're most of the way there. For all we know these units could be right around the corner... and their rules could be terrible. So we'd get another 5-10 years of whining on the forums. Life is too short and nothing about this game really warrants the vitriol we see on here
The Chaos Legions are as organised as you need them to be. Like Loyalists, a 40k army can represent a small raid, a reasonable contingent, or the tip of a colossal spear striking through a sector. Storm of Iron comes to mind.
So my questions:
Does this book give you juicy artefacts that are better than the horrendous ones?
Does this book make the ridiculous boons of chaos optional?
Does this book add chapter tactics?
Does it make reaching combat more plausible?
Does it require me to buy lots of needless garbage units they're having trouble selling to get some remotely half decent units attached?
Can my warpsmith/apostle take a bike or wings/jump pack?
Is this book free? Because I'm sick of having to buy £30 supplements that improve little to nothing
Some of these are rhetorical. Kudos on fixing psychic powers though.
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Snake Tortoise wrote: It's depressing reading the constant complaining from other CSM players. People should probably come to terms with the fact their own faction will never be exactly as they want them to be, and even if they got what they wanted there will be lots of other players who want more, or wanted different things to begin with.
Actually we have, but here's the ultimate issue. Money
We have money. GW wants our money. We want a product we will happily trade our funds with.
GW make a product they presumably believe will help initiate this trade, containing rules, artwork, fluff.
X% of the players are happy with this and initiate the trade. Y% players are unhappy and keep their cash.
Now I can't speak of the numbers involved, just my own personal experience, but I think I've had.... 2? 3? Codices after 3.5 that have contained less and less. The good things they have contained have been vile to play with, like Lash of Submission and the Helldrake, which soon become crutches. All the while I've paid money for a poor product. Then Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter, which didn't fix the issues. Then you add in the separation of Daemons and KDK, and how Daemons had their options shoe-horned into a fantasy dynamic (chariots). It has come to the point now where I cannot write a list. I open the book, start to pen something down, and become angry. I look at the HQs and just shelve the book. It's not about power (I'm a nid player) but a cancer in the fundamentals. When the marines got their latest dex, with rules for chapter tactics, I quit 40K fully until 2-3 months ago.
In the time that I'd sat out, I'd picked up X-Wing, Armada, Heroclix, Flames of War, Battletech, Batman Miniature Game, Memoir 44, Zombicide, and lord knows what else. I love GW, and through them I have met a lot of friends, but if this is the quality we continue to get, I have no interest in anything beyond the board games (Overkill, Silver Tower, etc).
Well the typical arguments seem to come to play, those who think Chaos should just suck it up continue to believe it, Chaos players who have been spurned continue to know that GW doesn't really care, at least not here anyways.
Even Chaos in AoS is getting split into different factions for those who worship the god, hopefully if 8th drops they know that people really, really want to have their options.
Actually we have, but here's the ultimate issue. Money
We have money. GW wants our money. We want a product we will happily trade our funds with.
GW make a product they presumably believe will help initiate this trade, containing rules, artwork, fluff.
X% of the players are happy with this and initiate the trade. Y% players are unhappy and keep their cash.
Now I can't speak of the numbers involved, just my own personal experience, but I think I've had.... 2? 3? Codices after 3.5 that have contained less and less. The good things they have contained have been vile to play with, like Lash of Submission and the Helldrake, which soon become crutches. All the while I've paid money for a poor product. Then Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter, which didn't fix the issues. Then you add in the separation of Daemons and KDK, and how Daemons had their options shoe-horned into a fantasy dynamic (chariots). It has come to the point now where I cannot write a list. I open the book, start to pen something down, and become angry. I look at the HQs and just shelve the book. It's not about power (I'm a nid player) but a cancer in the fundamentals. When the marines got their latest dex, with rules for chapter tactics, I quit 40K fully until 2-3 months ago.
In the time that I'd sat out, I'd picked up X-Wing, Armada, Heroclix, Flames of War, Battletech, Batman Miniature Game, Memoir 44, Zombicide, and lord knows what else. I love GW, and through them I have met a lot of friends, but if this is the quality we continue to get, I have no interest in anything beyond the board games (Overkill, Silver Tower, etc).
You make fair points, but I'd suggest the problem isn't with CSM (or nids, orks, IG, DE) but the more powerful codexes like eldar and tau, the battle brothers shenanigans imperial factions can do, the gladius strike force and some of the tricks daemons can do (in an otherwise well written codex). If you take units like CSM squads, tactical marines, ork boyz, termagants and IG platoons as the basic power level other units should be balanced against, I think the problem is the more powerful elements in the game that should be toned down. The CSM codex has some weak units like most codexes, but generally I see the power level as appropriate to the game.
The layout of the codex is fine. Outside of the Black Legion, how organized are the CSMs? Not very well. Even Iron Warriors aren't so terribly well organized, so having that much to work with makes sense. CSMs are much more cowardly than the Loyalist counterparts, but when they stop being cowards and win a challenge, sometimes the Gods reward them. Ergo, the lower LD but Boon mechanic makes sense.
Cowardly? All of them? A blanket statement which is patently false. There are numerous examples of CSM being every bit as courageous as the loyalist counterparts (albeit while enacting evil plans).
The boon mechanic is silly and terrible. Period. KDK handles this MUCH better. For example, becoming a Demon Prince should NEVER EVER make you WORSE than you were before you became one. Yet they have set it up so that is often what happens when you become a DP off the boon table. It's too much meaningless rolling for incredibly little result the rest of the time. Too much book keeping.
What really needs to be fixed is point costs and such, and for different fixes in the main rule book. Also nobody outside of Jancoran thinks FW stuff is OP in this modern day and age.
Agreed on all points. The FW thing is something I've seen happen specifically when CSM players try to improve by using FW. I personally am not saying FW is OP. It is not. It's just a weird thing I've seen happen.
I DO think that in addition to points cost though, they need to rethink close to half (if not more) of the units in the book. They are just that poorly done. Despite the main book being a 6th ed codex, it is still running off 5thed (and in some cases 4thed) mechanics that no longer function. I was really hoping TH would help mitigate that, but it really didn't. It came close in a few instances, but not close enough and only with a few units.
Also I wouldn't care about having to deal with LD 7/8 on its own because LD is one of the least important stats in the game due to how you can work around it. That's why Freakshow lists won't ever be that big of a thing. If I got 1-2 points off my Bikers for -1 LD and/or losing ATSKNF, I'd be all over it.
That's fair enough, but in actual practice, many CSM players have found that the extra LD point actually makes a very real difference. We don't really have that many options for keeping guys from running away. Take a 60pt icon? Sure! Oh crap ... got sniped out turn 1 ... lol
1. It is a blanket statement and I stand by it. The Daemonkin acts different in that it is a single giant incursion of forces of Khorne and they get stronger depending on how much dies. That's why it works better for them. Now, if you wanted a similar mechanic there'd have to be Kins for each god, but that won't happen until GW releases different models for the greater daemons to shove in our mouths. In the meantime, I think it is perfectly fine OUTSIDE the Daemon Prince one. That's more the fault of not keeping equipment, which would alleviate any issues.
2. Absolutely some of them are poorly done. Mutilators need to be removed and those abilities be given to Obliterators, as they're random enough already and it would make them better in melee. Warp Talons would just work as 2-3 Raptors upgrading to become them for 10 or so points in a squad. Warpsmiths and Apostles still need steeds and other forms of mobility. Of course there's still a lot wrong with the codex but at least the supplement makes the issues not as terribad. I won't run a CAD ever again with them I'll say that much, and there's very few instances of me saying that (that bonus for Necrons is too good to pass up). Warpsmiths definitely get more mileage, and Apostles get a neat gimmick with Cultists. Really wouldn't take an Apostle outside that formation though to be honest, even if they had better mobility.
Regarding Cult Terminators, I do agree they should be a unit, but it is unlikely that anyone would take them as Termicide is still a thing (heh, the one thing they have better than Loyalists: Terminators).
3. The Icon is 35 points, making it worth almost 50 total to lose. Hence why it is better just to go for VotLW or use Plague Marines (who get their Special Weapons overall cheaper. Because.). Now, you're not just stuck to Plague Marines as 13 points of LD9 is basically as fine as Fearless.
You make fair points, but I'd suggest the problem isn't with CSM (or nids, orks, IG, DE) but the more powerful codexes like eldar and tau, the battle brothers shenanigans imperial factions can do, the gladius strike force and some of the tricks daemons can do (in an otherwise well written codex). If you take units like CSM squads, tactical marines, ork boyz, termagants and IG platoons as the basic power level other units should be balanced against, I think the problem is the more powerful elements in the game that should be toned down. The CSM codex has some weak units like most codexes, but generally I see the power level as appropriate to the game.
I think that's approaching the problem from the opposite end of myself. I don't think having a strong army and one that matches the fluff are mutually exclusive, but for me personally, I'd go for something thematic over something tough every time. Forced Challenges, people exploding into Daemon Princes for killing Cadian Sergeants, using their 10,000 years or so of veteran skills to go "grrr I don't like you" don't scream Chaos to me.
We'll go in circles about what CSM want or need... It's easier to say we don't want or need books that emphasize Khorne, Black Legion, or random renegades or any combination there in. GW has seemingly taken one of the most varied and flavorful factions and distilled it down to the most generic forms. It doesn't matter why GW's done what they've done, just that they've diminished the whole of 40k by diminishing the Imperium's greatest existential threat that is at the heart of the setting.
CSM are a lot of different things, more varied in flavor and capabilities than loyalist space marines. I can appreciate loyalist SM sell very well and thus get a lot of support it is just wholely insincere to tell us and expect us to represent the diversity of chaos with any of these books.
People who don't understand the CSM's problem say we just want the 3.5ed codex back, that it was a cheat and "broken." What they fail to grasp is that even before the 3.5 book CSM was more diverse and that the 3rd edition codex was for expedients and 3.5ed codex was still a compromise. Now the CSM book is even less. Before 3rd edition CSM was literally "use these thick books in addition to a loyalist codex." The 3.5 edition codex wasn't truly broken, the rules themselves were fair, they simply allowed a level of diversity and customization that gave chaos a great spectrum of scalable abilities to choose from.
Now whether you are a 10,000 year old former legionary or drop pod specializing loyalist turned renegade because your librarian started talking to "himself" your units are fundamentally indistinguishable.
I just wanted Berserkers to be viable.. specifically have a decent way to get into combat that doesn't involved being out in the open for a turn to die. I miss the old transport disembarkation rules :(
So in a nutshell what does this book contain? About half a dozen formations, new psychic powers? No artifacts or full rules rewrites without taking a large formation?
Norn Queen Yurei wrote: So in a nutshell what does this book contain? About half a dozen formations, new psychic powers? No artifacts or full rules rewrites without taking a large formation?
I think that's approaching the problem from the opposite end of myself. I don't think having a strong army and one that matches the fluff are mutually exclusive, but for me personally, I'd go for something thematic over something tough every time. Forced Challenges, people exploding into Daemon Princes for killing Cadian Sergeants, using their 10,000 years or so of veteran skills to go "grrr I don't like you" don't scream Chaos to me.
I can see why forced challenges were conceived, even if it's too much of a one size fits all rule that works for lots of chaos characters but doesn't make much sense for others. I quite like dark apotheosis because it's bringing a fluff concept into the game, but maybe it would have been better if the prince retained all wargear. That way it wouldn't be a nuisance to lose your chaos lord if your prince now had terminator armour, a chainfist and lightning claw etc. Veteran skills (maybe buying USR's) would be cool but from a fluff perspective I suppose it depends how much you want your fluff to be represented on the table. In a narrative sense I imagine my basic chaos marine squads as every bit as awesome as astartes are depicted in the background, but on the table I can live with them being a cheap objective grabber
Observation? The Chaos Space Marine Codex with the 'Books of Chaos' legion section didn't have plague terminators with feel no pain.
I never understood people's reaction to this. The Chaos Space Marine book which included Plague Marines as a distinct unit to Nurgle Chaos Space Marines was the first one to do this.
If you want every unit in your army to be identical rules-wise, take the mark of nurgle on everything, and you are identical to the 3.5 edition death guard.
If you want an army comprised entirely of the 'better-than-this' plague marines, etc, then take Typhus and plague marines, or necrosius in a Purge detachment.
I still don't get why the Black Legion detachment isn't a 'legion' force. You can make a perfectly fluffy and effective list for any of the undivided legions - which, as a black legion detachment, is all it's trying to do.
It offers unlimited cultists for alpha legion daemons for word bearers, improved raptor forces for night lords, siege daemon engines for iron warriors, and frothing nutbars with axes for world eaters.
Correct, they did not have individual units representing cult options. It was just add a mark. But then they did add those units in with special rules and opened up a whole can of worms that comes with it. Personally, I want to see GW either give us all the rules for every unit to represent each cult legion properly, or remove the cult units all together and just make it how it was back in 3.5. I don't want this half assed thing that they've done, just give me all of it, or give me none of it.
As a Black Legion player, I do consider my legion well represented. I have unique artifacts, formations, characters etc. And although I may disagree on some of the ways they have gone as far as rules go, such as focusing on Chosen (I see chosen as more of an Alpha Legion thing) as a troop choice for some reason instead of Terminators. I can't really complain at all.
I'm mostly fighting for the other legions that are harder to represent. Iron Warriors, Night Lords are pretty well represented with Codex and the new supplement. Word Bearers and Alpha Legion are less so but It's doable with a combination of the Daemons Codex, Crimson Slaughter supplement and for Alpha Legion, probably just using Codex: Space Marines.
Cult Legions are the hardest to represent because in my opinion they need to share the same rules as the Cult Marines that are in the codex, but GW doesn't want to do that so for some reason only your troops can have sonic blasters. Definitely not your Chaos Lord because reasons.
I think that's approaching the problem from the opposite end of myself. I don't think having a strong army and one that matches the fluff are mutually exclusive, but for me personally, I'd go for something thematic over something tough every time. Forced Challenges, people exploding into Daemon Princes for killing Cadian Sergeants, using their 10,000 years or so of veteran skills to go "grrr I don't like you" don't scream Chaos to me.
I can see why forced challenges were conceived, even if it's too much of a one size fits all rule that works for lots of chaos characters but doesn't make much sense for others. I quite like dark apotheosis because it's bringing a fluff concept into the game, but maybe it would have been better if the prince retained all wargear. That way it wouldn't be a nuisance to lose your chaos lord if your prince now had terminator armour, a chainfist and lightning claw etc. Veteran skills (maybe buying USR's) would be cool but from a fluff perspective I suppose it depends how much you want your fluff to be represented on the table. In a narrative sense I imagine my basic chaos marine squads as every bit as awesome as astartes are depicted in the background, but on the table I can live with them being a cheap objective grabber
The whole forced challenges thing sounds more of how you'd expect Khorne's champions to act than the rest of Chaos champions. As a mechanic it wouldn't be too bad if the book were actually built around the concept a bit more, as it is it's an incomplete vision forced on a book with a very incomplete purpose. Its very much in line with the non-commital approach GW has had with Chaos.
While the flavor of CSMGW has given us is the least popular one, there could be something interesting in the whole idea of an army composed of warriors and warbands that are otherwise free agents coming together to form this army... Such an idea would be more complete by thinking of these aspiring champions as strong characters who through their force of will hold otherwise uncontrollable maniacs together. This portrayal however requires us to think of these champions as more distinctive individuals rather than the throwaway sergeants that they are. To be more thematically cohesive with that notion and ultimately the "Black Legion" style amalgamated force all the different types of champions subject to that forced challenge rule should be so customizable that they can be kitted out and upgraded more thoroughly for going after different type of characters they might want to challenge to a degree they actually stand a chance. In that way they would feel less like forced fodder and more like head hunting marauders out on their own personal mission of glory. In this way the actual squads aren't as important in and unto themselves but simply for being the appropriate delivery mechanism for these champions.
But nope. This is one reason why I think GW's greatest sin to Chaos isn't for choosing a bland concept but for not delivering on the one they presented in a meaningful way. 31 wonderful flavors of chaos marines, but we can only choose from vanilla, vanilla bean, french vanilla and strawberry (very very angry strawberry).
If you'll forgive me for being a conspriacy theorist (Clinton had Harambe assassinated because he was the wikileaks informant for the DNC) I found the forced challenges were there for one reason.
Challenge -> Roll on Table -> Sell a box of spawn or a Daemon Prince as they're now a possibility in every army.
Tie this with champions you're forced to take as the cost is included in the unit, and how you can barely make them survivable without spending stupid money for an invulnerable + tzeentch + a power weapon, and the troop tax just had another tax hidden in the mix. This was I think my biggest hatred in the whole book.
I really like the new rules for the boon chart. It was a bit of an afterthought before, but getting to roll on it twice every turn regardless of what else is happening is a cool ability, especially since we can disregard one of the rolls if we choose. It's not a game changer but I can see it being a fun element
I really, really wish they would scrap the boon chart and the challenge mechanic. I hate them both utterly.
If they're going to keep the chart, at least split it into 4 charts. 1 for each god that just has 6 results. If you have a mark, you gotta roll on the chart for your god. Just 1d6 and thats it. Keep them useful, and keep it simple. If you are undivided, just choose a chart to roll on.
Most importantly though, remove the results for becoming a spawn or daemon prince. Games should not be decided on a single roll of a die.
Challenge -> Roll on Table -> Sell a box of spawn or a Daemon Prince as they're now a possibility in every army.
Tie this with champions you're forced to take as the cost is included in the unit, and how you can barely make them survivable without spending stupid money for an invulnerable + tzeentch + a power weapon, and the troop tax just had another tax hidden in the mix. This was I think my biggest hatred in the whole book.
There is something to that. Mechanics like this are just more palatable when they are thematically carried through rather than just being tacked on. It wouldn't be as bad if the Champions actually stood a chance, if they were more interesting, and if they had the means to be developed as individual powerhouses. IF they were good, they would be forced to roll on the table more often and GW would sell more Spawn and more Daemon Princes.
Then GW could reshape the narrative around them. For example, there is a disconnect between legions and renegade chapters... something like this could drive how these forces have blended and break down some of the weak points in execution... Why don't we have more distinctive legion forces? -Why aren't their 10,000 year old super killing marines everywhere? -Where do these renegades get all the combi-bolters and similar non-loyalist equipment in abundance? -In a reshaped narrative supported by a more fleshed out champion system it'd be easier to say individual butt-kicker legionaries strike out and force their way into renegade forces asserting leadership, inflicting them with corruption, and bringing them into the chaos fold. They become a narrative tool for tyrannical forced assimilation that can dispel some of why things are a little more homogeneous. It's not really what we want, but it'd be a more cohesive and sincere attempt at making chaos marine viable and distinctive in the face of the limited resources GW is willing to provide them.
You know what Guard want? Tanks to be playable again.
You know what bugs want? ANY invuln outside floating brainbugs.
You know what DE want? Not to have been booty-played by the Jink FAQ.
You know what BA want? The same things we want only our dex is now upper middle tier and theirs is still gak.
I already a dressed the outdated points. I pointed out the releases allow us to run most of the prevalent legions. I guarantee that if we get legion tactics the same people clammoring for them in this thread would turn around and cry about being even more like spikey marines. What Legion are you trying to run that you can't currently represent on the table?
For Christ's sake there are people in this thread whining about a free LD upgrade. And TWO free stat buffs for characters. That fact alone says more than I ever can.
You asked for what we wanted, don't complain when you get an answer. I'm well aware that CSM isn't the only Codex having a hard time and never claimed that it was. I'd love for IG and DE to get the toys they need to compete, but that's not what this thread is about.
As for what legion, Thousand Sons, accurate to the fluff. It remains a CAD only affair at the moment and being forced to waste a psychic level rolling on the useless tzeentch table for the privilege.
As for people whining if we got chapter tactics, I would be willing to bet not only a significant sum of money but also large portions of my anatomy that there would be no complaints about getting legion tactics or similar (complaints about it not being strong enough or that one legions is clearly better than another don't count)
People are comparing +1 LD and hatred imperials against ~500 points of free transports and understandably coming to the conclusion that we're being short changed as usual. +1 LD, hatred and 1-2 possibly useless, possibly helpful possibly detrimental boons aren't free, they come at the cost of being locked into a black legion detachment (and associated Auxiliary). For some, it's not worth not being able to take any heavy support outside of the formations, for others, they don't want to take mandatory CSM. For others, they simply desire more freedom in force composition. Both my CSM armies (Thousand Sons and Iron Warriors) are better off running CAD'S instead of the black legion detachments. I'm not complaining about the supplement at all, it does exactly what it says on the tin, it provides a fluffy way to run many armies, it's better than what we had before, it's just that there's very little in here that we asked for and even less in here that we need.
A decent base Codex? A playable cult army that isn't khorne based? Some sort of updated armoury that allows CSM to compete on a level playing field? Updated models that don't have half their details lost to mold degradation or rely on resin upgrade packs? Any sort of justification for why a warpsmith is 110 points with worse gear and options compared to a 65 point techmarine, why the only 2+ armour available to a CSM character is Terminator armour or a crimson slaughter relic, A reason why a vanilla marine chapter master has more wounds and more attacks than a chaos lord who should be the epitome of an astartes warrior, Why we have so many units in our Codex that were utter junk when it was released, let alone after 4 years of suffering insanities like the eldar codecies?
More importantly than all of that, how about a Codex that focuses on the legions like 90% 'ish of the CSM community has been screaming out for for the last 10 years?
This is a SUPPLEMENT. GW always advertised it as a SUPPLEMENT. if you expected a new codex, you sir need to learn to check your expecations.
He asked what we want. What we want (need really) is a new dex. I did not once expect this supplement to fix any of our issues at all and was pleasantly surprised that not 100% of the book was completely useless to ever (but at the same time, not at all surprised that it was almost 100% useless for me).
You know what Guard want? Tanks to be playable again.
You know what bugs want? ANY invuln outside floating brainbugs.
You know what DE want? Not to have been booty-played by the Jink FAQ.
You know what BA want? The same things we want only our dex is now upper middle tier and theirs is still gak.
I already a dressed the outdated points. I pointed out the releases allow us to run most of the prevalent legions. I guarantee that if we get legion tactics the same people clammoring for them in this thread would turn around and cry about being even more like spikey marines. What Legion are you trying to run that you can't currently represent on the table?
For Christ's sake there are people in this thread whining about a free LD upgrade. And TWO free stat buffs for characters. That fact alone says more than I ever can.
You asked for what we wanted, don't complain when you get an answer. I'm well aware that CSM isn't the only Codex having a hard time and never claimed that it was. I'd love for IG and DE to get the toys they need to compete, but that's not what this thread is about.
As for what legion, Thousand Sons, accurate to the fluff. It remains a CAD only affair at the moment and being forced to waste a psychic level rolling on the useless tzeentch table for the privilege.
As for people whining if we got chapter tactics, I would be willing to bet not only a significant sum of money but also large portions of my anatomy that there would be no complaints about getting legion tactics or similar (complaints about it not being strong enough or that one legions is clearly better than another don't count)
People are comparing +1 LD and hatred imperials against ~500 points of free transports and understandably coming to the conclusion that we're being short changed as usual. +1 LD, hatred and 1-2 possibly useless, possibly helpful possibly detrimental boons aren't free, they come at the cost of being locked into a black legion detachment (and associated Auxiliary). For some, it's not worth not being able to take any heavy support outside of the formations, for others, they don't want to take mandatory CSM. For others, they simply desire more freedom in force composition. Both my CSM armies (Thousand Sons and Iron Warriors) are better off running CAD'S instead of the black legion detachments. I'm not complaining about the supplement at all, it does exactly what it says on the tin, it provides a fluffy way to run many armies, it's better than what we had before, it's just that there's very little in here that we asked for and even less in here that we need.
A decent base Codex? A playable cult army that isn't khorne based? Some sort of updated armoury that allows CSM to compete on a level playing field? Updated models that don't have half their details lost to mold degradation or rely on resin upgrade packs? Any sort of justification for why a warpsmith is 110 points with worse gear and options compared to a 65 point techmarine, why the only 2+ armour available to a CSM character is Terminator armour or a crimson slaughter relic, A reason why a vanilla marine chapter master has more wounds and more attacks than a chaos lord who should be the epitome of an astartes warrior, Why we have so many units in our Codex that were utter junk when it was released, let alone after 4 years of suffering insanities like the eldar codecies?
More importantly than all of that, how about a Codex that focuses on the legions like 90% 'ish of the CSM community has been screaming out for for the last 10 years?
This is a SUPPLEMENT. GW always advertised it as a SUPPLEMENT. if you expected a new codex, you sir need to learn to check your expecations.
He asked what we want. What we want (need really) is a new dex. I did not once expect this supplement to fix any of our issues at all and was pleasantly surprised that not 100% of the book was completely useless to ever (but at the same time, not at all surprised that it was almost 100% useless for me).
I just opened my codex now and cringed when I noticed that mark of slaanesh is 2pts/model on everything even Havocs, I feel like i'm getting punished for wanting to play a mono god army.
Rydria wrote: I just opened my codex now and cringed when I noticed that mark of slaanesh is 2pts/model on everything even Havocs, I feel like i'm getting punished for wanting to play a mono god army.
It's also 1ppm on oblits. Who have powerfists. And can't get any other weapons. Perhaps you'd like to pay 10 points for the nurgle banner on possessed? That gives fear. To a daemons unit. There are countless examples of this throughout the poor joke that we call a Codex.
Rydria wrote: I just opened my codex now and cringed when I noticed that mark of slaanesh is 2pts/model on everything even Havocs, I feel like i'm getting punished for wanting to play a mono god army.
It's also 1ppm on oblits. Who have powerfists. And can't get any other weapons. Perhaps you'd like to pay 10 points for the nurgle banner on possessed? That gives fear. To a daemons unit. There are countless examples of this throughout the poor joke that we call a Codex.
You can't even sweep units with Oblits because there slow and purposeful.
That +1 initiative increases your durability against warp spiders, now how OP is that for just 1 point you get toughness 5 against 1 model in the game.
aka_mythos wrote: Mechanics like this are just more palatable when they are thematically carried through rather than just being tacked on. It wouldn't be as bad if the Champions actually stood a chance, if they were more interesting, and if they had the means to be developed as individual powerhouses. IF they were good, they would be forced to roll on the table more often and GW would sell more Spawn and more Daemon Princes.
I think the problem is that you're challenging characters that are designed to beat you (aka space marines). Champion of Chaos is there to reward you for challenging IG sergeants and the like. And also to make sure you do your mookly duty by forcing you to challenge Chapter Master Smashfether to heroic single combat and losing. Cinematically.
aka_mythos wrote: Mechanics like this are just more palatable when they are thematically carried through rather than just being tacked on. It wouldn't be as bad if the Champions actually stood a chance, if they were more interesting, and if they had the means to be developed as individual powerhouses. IF they were good, they would be forced to roll on the table more often and GW would sell more Spawn and more Daemon Princes.
I think the problem is that you're challenging characters that are designed to beat you (aka space marines). Champion of Chaos is there to reward you for challenging IG sergeants and the like. And also to make sure you do your mookly duty by forcing you to challenge Chapter Master Smashfether to heroic single combat and losing. Cinematically.
You know it might be interesting to see like Harlequins or various others where the Champion of Chaos becomes a sort of "Mini Lieutenant" where he gains a higher statline, 2 wounds and the like.
Of course that's more or less just hopeful wishlisting..
aka_mythos wrote: Mechanics like this are just more palatable when they are thematically carried through rather than just being tacked on. It wouldn't be as bad if the Champions actually stood a chance, if they were more interesting, and if they had the means to be developed as individual powerhouses. IF they were good, they would be forced to roll on the table more often and GW would sell more Spawn and more Daemon Princes.
I think the problem is that you're challenging characters that are designed to beat you (aka space marines). Champion of Chaos is there to reward you for challenging IG sergeants and the like. And also to make sure you do your mookly duty by forcing you to challenge Chapter Master Smashfether to heroic single combat and losing. Cinematically.
I understand what your saying, but I'd counter that a victory out of combat with an inferior foe is not heroic, its mundane.
CSM is suffering from a severe case of "the fiction means nothing" when you compare it to our rules... this severe disconnect makes it impossible to represent CSM in any meaningful way. No codex is perfect, and no reasonable CSM player really expects us to get everything, but its hard to stomach getting next to nothing of the things we are told to expect by the fiction.
Rydria wrote: I just opened my codex now and cringed when I noticed that mark of slaanesh is 2pts/model on everything even Havocs, I feel like i'm getting punished for wanting to play a mono god army.
It's also 1ppm on oblits. Who have powerfists. And can't get any other weapons. Perhaps you'd like to pay 10 points for the nurgle banner on possessed? That gives fear. To a daemons unit. There are countless examples of this throughout the poor joke that we call a Codex.
You can't even sweep units with Oblits because there slow and purposeful.
That +1 initiative increases your durability against warp spiders, now how OP is that for just 1 point you get toughness 5 against 1 model in the game.
Also, some Blind protection and some psy power protection that involves ini tests...well, there might be one. At least i remember wolves had this earth crack thing.
There were a few comments about people complaining about csm players whining and what isn't represented in the current dex, so I figured I'D list a few things that we already had and lost.
We were the only army that could summon daemons, which were also part of our dex. I don't mind them separating, but we lost some of our charcter being not being able to summons anymore. WE got that back later, except not really because everybody else got it too when they shouldn't. Any space marine or eldar caught summoning daemons would be executed on the spot. Plus, we're not even good at it unless you take a daemon prince or a CS artifact. And what self respecting sorcerer would want to sacrifice himself in order to summon a greater daemon, that's what you have summoning rituals/sacrifces for.
Artificer Armour. That was taken away and replaced by nothing. We have it now on the warpsmith and oblits/mutilators, but that is a staple of csm lore. Their armour fusing with their body, and yet we can't take it.
Master crafted weapons. The lore is full of mentions of our ornate/barocque armour/ships. We destroy worlds to get our hands on loot and steal gear from defeated character. But none of that is master crafted because reasons.
Teleport Homers!?! Not only that, our icons also acted as beacons. We were more than capable of deepstriking accurately and into the heart of the enemy as the lore likes to describe. And we didn't need to shoehorn a cabal into our list to fish for a psychic power to do it.
Undivided was an actual thing and all four gods have had all kinds of unique wargear over the codices. Now? Go Khorne or go home.
We also had Sorcerer LORDS, not the second in command we have now. It was an upgrade for full blown lord, Like you would expect any TSons lord to be.
Thousand sons were't stuck with an attached sorcerer and were immune to small arms fire (literally immune). Which I think represents their fluff much better than AP3 bolters.
Possessed not only had bolt pistols, they even had the option to take bolters. (wasn't really a good idea but I liked it and if we could have cult possessed, it would make sense for Tzeentch)
Raptors had hit&run, like you would expect for night lords. The also made it so you would fall back automatically if they won CC, but we actually kinda got that back now with the raptor talon. So yay, one to scratch of the list.
Not sure if marines still have that, but we had bionics. Essentially a poor mans RP, but very fluffy for iron warriors.
We even had (some) god specific vehicle upgrades.
This isn't a comprehensive list either, we had our own guns and all, but we've being continually stripped down edition after edition.
As far as I'm concerned, what csm players want the most, is to be a unique and flavourful faction and to be a more or less accurate representation of the fluff. Which, just based on the stuff we already had is just not true anymore.
Of course we also want it to be balanced and competitive, but that goes without saying and is true for all factions. But for me? First and foremost it has to be somewhat fluffy. I don't care if csm were broken OP, different paint job marines are different paintjob marines, not chaos space marine and as a result I just can't get excited for them.
Formations help but they're not enough and they're too rigid. Ironically, csm are more efficiently represented by a CAD system if you ask me. Take the purge for example, awesomely fluffy detachment for anything nurgle, and pretty good too. Fluffier than either supplement, but that's just my opinion.
The problem with "CSM whining" is that we have repeatedly gotten all the stuff that made us unique/good taken away. Some of the posts here already stated it but off the top of my head:
1) Undivided being a thing. 2) Sorcerer LORDs that were big bads in their own right, not henchmen. 3) BIG ONE: Legion tactics so that Word Bearers played different to Night Lords of Alpha Legion 4) Support for mono-god armies other than Khorne
That's the thing. Chaos has become BLAND and uninspiring, basically faceless mooks that just exist as a foil to the heroic and noble Adeptus Astartes.
We basically wanted to have something like Sauron and the forces of Mordor, the "Great Enemy" that there was little hope to stand against, and instead we got Cobra Commander and COBRA, just hapless incompetent thugs that come up with some crazy plot for world domination only to be handily defeated by the good guys and sent running until next episode.
Sonic Keyboard wrote: Even with their chapter tactics shenanigans and multiple books, loyalists are all identical but with differently coloured armor.
But they really aren't, and even so that just lends credence to the fact that loyalists don't need multiple codexes. Other than Space Wolves, all the others could be one book with their special units limited to them/successors.
Sonic Keyboard wrote: Even with their chapter tactics shenanigans and multiple books, loyalists are all identical but with differently coloured armor.
But they really aren't, and even so that just lends credence to the fact that loyalists don't need multiple codexes. Other than Space Wolves, all the others could be one book with their special units limited to them/successors.
Used to be anyways, they kept adding and adding and now some of them would just be straight up huge, but of course that's something that Chaos doesn't get, being stuck with one codex trying to represent all of renegades/legions/gods/cults..
Sonic Keyboard wrote: Even with their chapter tactics shenanigans and multiple books, loyalists are all identical but with differently coloured armor.
But they really aren't, and even so that just lends credence to the fact that loyalists don't need multiple codexes. Other than Space Wolves, all the others could be one book with their special units limited to them/successors.
Used to be anyways, they kept adding and adding and now some of them would just be straight up huge, but of course that's something that Chaos doesn't get, being stuck with one codex trying to represent all of renegades/legions/gods/cults..
Thing is though most Marine chapters can make due with that; other than some specialized units, they are mostly identical and don't really warrant entirely different books. In fact, most of them don't even need different models, just a regular kit and then a separate upgrade sprue. Chaos is the one that really should have multiple codexes, because Traitor Legions should be different than Renegade Chapters which should be different from Daemons which should be different than Lost and the Damned/Renegades and Heretics.
If GW cared about Chaos, we would have a Codex: Chaos Space Marines, Codex Emperor's Children, Codex Thousand Sons, Codex Alpha Legion, Codex Death Guard, Codex Black Legion, etc. etc. just like the Space Marines,
But we don't, and so GW continues to shoe horn all of the Chaos Space Marines into one book, and it fails miserably. Traitors Hate is a band aid on a sucking chest wound.
TremendousZ wrote: I think CSM got what they were asking for in a lot of ways, and CSM players need to realize your never getting 3.5 codex level power again. Lets just remember where we came from with the last CSM codex.
I think what most CSM players were asking for is rules for Legions and good internal balance. It just so happens that the 3.5 codex happened to be the overpowered one that also had Legion rules in it, not that CSM players "want overpowered Legion rules." The two don't have to be mutually exclusive.
There's always this smug "lol you just want to be OP again get over it XD" tone you can tell a mile away from these posts. In all my time watching Chaos Space Marine players vent - and they do, it's true, rant a lot but not without good reason - have I ever seem them crave 3.5 power levels. What they want are the 3.5 OPTIONS. That is, being able to take an army that isn't a Nurgle Lord on a bike, with bikes, and minimum Cultist tax and a Helldrake. When people say they miss the 3.5 codex days, what they mean is they miss the options, the customisability, the uniqueness.
Traitor's Hate is more of the same. "You will take this units to stand a chance on the tabletop and you will like it, now shut up whining." The vast majority of CSM complainants don't want powerful, they want OPTIONS. You could make CSM's the most broken thing on the tabletop, but if everything outside of three units is absolutely worthless - even if those three units wipe the floor with Riptides and Knights - then people are still going to complain, because being shoehorned into taking 'powerful' units is bad. Yes, poor internal balance is not unique to CSMs, but they're one of the most flavourful, diverse and potentially unique armies out there that are shoehorned into a handful of units to so much a play the damn game and that's not even getting onto how they're more vanilla than the damn vanilla Space Marine codex. That's not what Night Lord players want, that's not what Word Bearers players want.
Nobody was expecting Traitor's Hate to suddenly revamp the codex, but I think people were hoping for more than some psychic powers and free VotLW.
I was gonna make a big reponse post to the OP, but Arbitrator here covered everything nicely. Traitors Hate is just some dumb formations that may raise the power potential slightly, but addresses none of the real desires of the CSM playerbase. CSM's have been powerful post 3.5, sych as 4E Lash armies, and they were very powerful in early 6E with hellturkey spam, but that wasnt what anyone was looking for.
Traitors Hate is just another phoned in book of lame duck freebies designed to push sales, not something that in any way fixes what CSM players actually have problems with.
Tamwulf wrote: If GW cared about Chaos, we would have a Codex: Chaos Space Marines, Codex Emperor's Children, Codex Thousand Sons, Codex Alpha Legion, Codex Death Guard, Codex Black Legion, etc. etc. just like the Space Marines,
But we don't, and so GW continues to shoe horn all of the Chaos Space Marines into one book, and it fails miserably. Traitors Hate is a band aid on a sucking chest wound.
See no I disagree we need THAT much variety. I think that supplements could work (although I hate hate hate the fact they are as expensive as a codex) for specialized formations. But no, I think that we basically need one for cults, one for traitors, and then renegade chapters and cultists/traitor guard
A simple Legion Tactics thing and properly functioning Cult units outside of Tac equivalents would solve 99% of the issues people have. That GW appears to go out of their way to avoid this license to print money boggles my mind.
Exactly. The thing is, Chaos aren't complaining about being "weak". We are complaining that ever since the 3.5 days, we have had everything unique and identifying about Chaos gutted and removed and replaced with bland alternatives.
I'll be the first to admit that the daemon engines look cool, but Chaos is not "marines who use daemon engines". Chaos doesn't feel like it's anything, it doesn't feel like a long-forgotten past of the Imperium coming back to haunt them (i.e. traitor legions), it doesn't feel like temptation and hubris that causes angels to fall into darkness (i.e. Renegade Chapters), it doesn't feel like the taint of sin that promises power in exchange for your soul (i.e. Cultists/Lost and the Damned) and it doesn't feel like otherworldly immortal manifestations of pure emotion and hatred (i.e. Daemons; hell one of the daemon princes is strongly hinted at being Genghis Khan, and in Talon of Horus it mentions a Khorne daemon that was created in like the 12th century AD).
Chaos feels like a bland mix of all of those, while giving none of them justice. The biggest problem is Chaos is supposed to be the big evil, but nothing about it is fearsome. I get that fluff doesn't always equal rules, but Chaos is the only thing in the fluff that basically spells doom just by existing; worlds are obliterated to prevent the taint, populations are executed, sterilized and/or sent to concentration camps to isolate them just by being near something tainted.
Some of that overpowering "almighty evil" needs to come across, and it hasn't in forever.
Aye, thats pretty much it exactly. They come off pretty much as one dimensional generic BBEG's and not the nuanced lost and damned that they should be. There's no hint of that ancient menace, they're just "bad" marines.
Vaktathi wrote: Aye, thats pretty much it exactly. They come off pretty much as one dimensional generic BBEG's and not the nuanced lost and damned that they should be. There's no hint of that ancient menace, they're just "bad" marines.
It's worse than that. As I said earlier, in the fluff Chaos is brought up to be like Sauron/Mordor level of badassery, like this overwhelming force mustering that nobody is going to be able to stand against. But instead we get 1980s era Cobra or Decepticons; a bunch of bumbling mooks who talk big and bad but their zany schemes are easily thwarted by the heroes and they run off, tails between legs, vowing revenge next time as the heroes celebrate.
Aye, though sadly they're not the only faction to suffer that way, GW's writing quality has plummeted over the last decade. Between the Hogwarts Hostel description of the Scholas in the Tempestus book, the GK's slaying SoB's to use their blood in a very Khornate ritual and Draigo the invincible, and just about anything related to Space Wolves, the background writing for 40k has gotten truly awful
It's worse than that. As I said earlier, in the fluff Chaos is brought up to be like Sauron/Mordor level of badassery, like this overwhelming force mustering that nobody is going to be able to stand against. But instead we get 1980s era Cobra or Decepticons; a bunch of bumbling mooks who talk big and bad but their zany schemes are easily thwarted by the heroes and they run off, tails between legs, vowing revenge next time as the heroes celebrate.
That's almost exactly how I describe my issues with the Dark Apostle entry. You have the book version from the Word Bearers series where the Apostles are basically towering infernos of bad assery. Powerful psychers wreathed in demons and able to command the warp itself with a thought .... (these would have been represented well by the old Lord entry that allowed Lords to be Psykers as well).
Then there's the codex version ... he raises your leadership ... kinda .... YAY! lol
It's worse than that. As I said earlier, in the fluff Chaos is brought up to be like Sauron/Mordor level of badassery, like this overwhelming force mustering that nobody is going to be able to stand against. But instead we get 1980s era Cobra or Decepticons; a bunch of bumbling mooks who talk big and bad but their zany schemes are easily thwarted by the heroes and they run off, tails between legs, vowing revenge next time as the heroes celebrate.
That's almost exactly how I describe my issues with the Dark Apostle entry. You have the book version from the Word Bearers series where the Apostles are basically towering infernos of bad assery. Powerful psychers wreathed in demons and able to command the warp itself with a thought .... (these would have been represented well by the old Lord entry that allowed Lords to be Psykers as well).
Then there's the codex version ... he raises your leadership ... kinda .... YAY! lol
I would kill to have the old Lord entry back... In my opinion, GW should have stuck with the Lord and Lieutenant entries and just expanded upon them. (For those who don't know, CSM of 3.5 had 2 unnamed entries for HQ choices Chaos Lord and Chaos Lieutenant. The Lord could be upgraded into a Sorcerer Lord or a Daemon Prince while the Lieutenant could be upgraded into a sorcerer, Lords had pretty much the same profile that they do now while Lieutenants had the profile you see on current sorcerers I believe).
Honestly, everything should have a lord upgrade for CSM, that would certainly make it different from SM in allowing for most of their HQ's to become high powerful commanders.
Chaos Lords would either have a smaller version, or have an even more powerful version.
Though honestly I just would prefer having the ability to mix and match on a chaos lord as one would will. I mean really what are they SM being all organized like that.
CSM should have a lord upgrade for everything (giving it a Captain statline) whereas the basic lord can be made into a Dreadlord or whatever that has a CM statline.
1) Lord, can become Sorcerer Lord 2) Lieutenant, can buy Sorcerer or buy something to turn into a dark Apostle OR Warpsmith (basically a generic hero guy who can "upgrade" to the others)
Champions need to have the option to upgrade to Terminator armor a la Wolf Guard champions, thematic and fluffy too that you have these "Warbands" with their leader who has extra goodies. I'd even say as far as champions should be able to get marks of chaos on their own, to represent the touch of chaos affecting them more than regular goons
1) Lord, can become Sorcerer Lord
2) Lieutenant, can buy Sorcerer or buy something to turn into a dark Apostle OR Warpsmith (basically a generic hero guy who can "upgrade" to the others)
Champions need to have the option to upgrade to Terminator armor a la Wolf Guard champions, thematic and fluffy too that you have these "Warbands" with their leader who has extra goodies. I'd even say as far as champions should be able to get marks of chaos on their own, to represent the touch of chaos affecting them more than regular goons
Something like the extra mark for champions would be nice. Doesn't have to be a mark though. It's in the same vein as cult terminators. The more dedicated and stronger the individual, the more they are touched by chaos. Like normal marked csm are different from cult troops, which in turn are different from their special characters (at least lorewise).
The only units we have in the codex that are unique in that sense are the cult troops. Warp corruption is kind of our thing, so I'd really like to see some cult goodies other than just a small stat change and a mount for lords.
A series of cult codices should work pretty well if they actually put some work into it for a change, instead of getting bored half way and then copying the rest from somewhere.
1) Lord, can become Sorcerer Lord
2) Lieutenant, can buy Sorcerer or buy something to turn into a dark Apostle OR Warpsmith (basically a generic hero guy who can "upgrade" to the others)
How would that be reflected in the models? The problem is that we want fluff > rules > models while GW operate on models > rules > fluff. Go to the webstore. Look at the selection. Are there enough distinct product offerings to repackage them as lord model, sorcerer lord model, sorcerer model, lieutenant model? If no then this is a nonstarter.
I think the fundamental problem with Chaos is that they are not popular enough to justify a product line that would accommodate rules to do their fluff justice. So the models drag everything else down. We just can't expect GW to expend significant resources supporting what is effectively a legacy line of products.
The csm model range shouldn't be a problem. It's ancient and needs to be redone one way or another. That could easily enough include new models. Besides, look at the loyalist marine hq sections, they have like a bajillion models to could represent anything from a lieutenant to a chapter master.
How would that be reflected in the models? The problem is that we want fluff > rules > models while GW operate on models > rules > fluff. Go to the webstore. Look at the selection. Are there enough distinct product offerings to repackage them as lord model, sorcerer lord model, sorcerer model, lieutenant model? If no then this is a nonstarter.
I think the fundamental problem with Chaos is that they are not popular enough to justify a product line that would accommodate rules to do their fluff justice. So the models drag everything else down. We just can't expect GW to expend significant resources supporting what is effectively a legacy line of products.
I think it's one of the few upsides to our outdated models. When a rework happens it will need to be generally substantial. GW has the opportunity to make the rework more meaningful through that. At this point GW should have done a Chaos lord kit that provides the bits to make a variety of character types. Unfortunately I think the present day GW would rather keep CSM characters in neat little boxes that directly parallel loyalist SM. The trend towards monopose character models is also diminishing the likelihood.
TremendousZ wrote: I think CSM got what they were asking for in a lot of ways, and CSM players need to realize your never getting 3.5 codex level power again. Lets just remember where we came from with the last CSM codex.
I think what most CSM players were asking for is rules for Legions and good internal balance. It just so happens that the 3.5 codex happened to be the overpowered one that also had Legion rules in it, not that CSM players "want overpowered Legion rules." The two don't have to be mutually exclusive.
There's always this smug "lol you just want to be OP again get over it XD" tone you can tell a mile away from these posts. In all my time watching Chaos Space Marine players vent - and they do, it's true, rant a lot but not without good reason - have I ever seem them crave 3.5 power levels. What they want are the 3.5 OPTIONS. That is, being able to take an army that isn't a Nurgle Lord on a bike, with bikes, and minimum Cultist tax and a Helldrake. When people say they miss the 3.5 codex days, what they mean is they miss the options, the customisability, the uniqueness.
Traitor's Hate is more of the same. "You will take this units to stand a chance on the tabletop and you will like it, now shut up whining." The vast majority of CSM complainants don't want powerful, they want OPTIONS. You could make CSM's the most broken thing on the tabletop, but if everything outside of three units is absolutely worthless - even if those three units wipe the floor with Riptides and Knights - then people are still going to complain, because being shoehorned into taking 'powerful' units is bad. Yes, poor internal balance is not unique to CSMs, but they're one of the most flavourful, diverse and potentially unique armies out there that are shoehorned into a handful of units to so much a play the damn game and that's not even getting onto how they're more vanilla than the damn vanilla Space Marine codex. That's not what Night Lord players want, that's not what Word Bearers players want.
Nobody was expecting Traitor's Hate to suddenly revamp the codex, but I think people were hoping for more than some psychic powers and free VotLW.
You know what is funny with this post. It's so true almost.
"You will take this units to stand a chance on the tabletop and you will like it, now shut up whining."
It's almost like the Space Marine players are do what they are told and listen to the all mighty Emperor or GW in this case and people who do not are the heretics or the Chaos Space Marine players. They are defying the Emperor or in this case GW by keep voicing their displeasure. Sort of funny how real life is mimicking the 40K fluff.
I think it's one of the few upsides to our outdated models. When a rework happens it will need to be generally substantial.
I don't know about that. It would take an unusually large release just to get the current finecast infantry models into plastic. We don't even have plastic heavy weapons. And I doubt we'll ever see plastic noise marines. Ever.
1) Lord, can become Sorcerer Lord
2) Lieutenant, can buy Sorcerer or buy something to turn into a dark Apostle OR Warpsmith (basically a generic hero guy who can "upgrade" to the others)
How would that be reflected in the models? The problem is that we want fluff > rules > models while GW operate on models > rules > fluff. Go to the webstore. Look at the selection. Are there enough distinct product offerings to repackage them as lord model, sorcerer lord model, sorcerer model, lieutenant model? If no then this is a nonstarter.
I think the fundamental problem with Chaos is that they are not popular enough to justify a product line that would accommodate rules to do their fluff justice. So the models drag everything else down. We just can't expect GW to expend significant resources supporting what is effectively a legacy line of products.
I don't see why distinct product offerings for repackaging is a deal at all in this case. I mean, look at SM, what's the difference between a captain and a chapter master model? I mean, perhaps there is something but if there is, well, it's too damn subtle for me to notice. Perhaps you could point out this distinction in the product line for me?
1) Lord, can become Sorcerer Lord
2) Lieutenant, can buy Sorcerer or buy something to turn into a dark Apostle OR Warpsmith (basically a generic hero guy who can "upgrade" to the others)
How would that be reflected in the models? The problem is that we want fluff > rules > models while GW operate on models > rules > fluff. Go to the webstore. Look at the selection. Are there enough distinct product offerings to repackage them as lord model, sorcerer lord model, sorcerer model, lieutenant model? If no then this is a nonstarter.
I think the fundamental problem with Chaos is that they are not popular enough to justify a product line that would accommodate rules to do their fluff justice. So the models drag everything else down. We just can't expect GW to expend significant resources supporting what is effectively a legacy line of products.
I don't see why distinct product offerings for repackaging is a deal at all in this case. I mean, look at SM, what's the difference between a captain and a chapter master model? I mean, perhaps there is something but if there is, well, it's too damn subtle for me to notice. Perhaps you could point out this distinction in the product line for me?
SM are special. They don't follow the same rules as everyone else. If you expect CSM to be treated the same as SM you're gonna be disappointed.
Also, we're talking about adding new rules where there are no corresponding new models to push. Captain/chapter master already exists.
Well, a few of you are looking on the bright side! I'm noticing a few common complaints and would offer a few counter arguments.
First, lack of customization and here is an example leading into number 2. Cult Terminators not being represented. These guys are 10,000 year old warriors that have the same weapon from 10,000 years ago, and have been living in the warp. How can I have them represented in the new codex? What if they aren't 10,000 years old....just 2,000...?
Well, might I point you at the Mutilator entry? Their weapons can be anything, each turn. So if you modeled some sweet Nurgle Terminators with scythes, they can swing at different initiatives and S values, and have 2 wounds! Oh, only 2,000 years old? Then don't take VoTLW. which leads to point number 2. The customization is there, its more an issue of.....
Can't or Won't?
Is it true that you really can't make these units with the current codex, or you won't because of the point tax/competitve rules. I think a lot of you fall into category B, when some people complain about playing CSM with no CSMs. Just take some CSMs...no biggie. This leads into point 3.
Is your meta really so competitive that you need every trick and point optimized? If so, wow this game must be a nightmare for you. Are your opponents not your friends? because that would explain some of the behavior and lists described on here. Talk to your opponent about what your expecting beforehand.
Put it this way, I'd bet that our Decurion would hold up vs any of the other Decurions (scat bikes aside). Maybe someone could eyeball the Eldar guardian battlehost vs. our Decurion, because we can all gauge power level by looking at lists and rules...well at least us experienced gamers (sarcasm, sorry I couldn't let that original comment slide)
And a final food for thought..What happens when we get legion rules and your legion is left in the dust? Be it bad rules, weapons that don't feel right (think vibrating swords of slaanesh), lack of customization, or anything mentioned in this post. You are already not using your current Chaos army of choice because of any of the complaints. Will it be can't? Or won't?
For Chaos Tourney players, especially ones that travel, I understand you can't talk to your opponents. Save your breath.
TremendousZ wrote: Well, a few of you are looking on the bright side! I'm noticing a few common complaints and would offer a few counter arguments.
First, lack of customization and here is an example leading into number 2. Cult Terminators not being represented. These guys are 10,000 year old warriors that have the same weapon from 10,000 years ago, and have been living in the warp. How can I have them represented in the new codex? What if they aren't 10,000 years old....just 2,000...?
Well, might I point you at the Mutilator entry? Their weapons can be anything, each turn. So if you modeled some sweet Nurgle Terminators with scythes, they can swing at different initiatives and S values, and have 2 wounds! Oh, only 2,000 years old? Then don't take VoTLW. which leads to point number 2. The customization is there, its more an issue of.....
Can't or Won't?
Is it true that you really can't make these units with the current codex, or you won't because of the point tax/competitve rules. I think a lot of you fall into category B, when some people complain about playing CSM with no CSMs. Just take some CSMs...no biggie. This leads into point 3.
Is your meta really so competitive that you need every trick and point optimized? If so, wow this game must be a nightmare for you. Are your opponents not your friends? because that would explain some of the behavior and lists described on here. Talk to your opponent about what your expecting beforehand.
Put it this way, I'd bet that our Decurion would hold up vs any of the other Decurions (scat bikes aside). Maybe someone could eyeball the Eldar guardian battlehost vs. our Decurion, because we can all gauge power level by looking at lists and rules...well at least us experienced gamers (sarcasm, sorry I couldn't let that original comment slide)
And a final food for thought..What happens when we get legion rules and your legion is left in the dust? Be it bad rules, weapons that don't feel right (think vibrating swords of slaanesh), lack of customization, or anything mentioned in this post. You are already not using your current Chaos army of choice because of any of the complaints. Will it be can't? Or won't?
For Chaos Tourney players, especially ones that travel, I understand you can't talk to your opponents. Save your breath.
I've been thinking this same thing, just wasn't quite sure how to address it. If I could exalt this 3 dozen times I totally would. For example, as much as people complain about fluffy legions being impossible to represent, you can run Raptor Talon full of warp talons for Night Lords. Iron warriors would be the Demonforge pack, vehicle squadrons and obliterator cult. Will they run it? Probably not because they won't run warp talons, they want Khornes benefits and the IW folks would probably rather run demon knights and Kabal rather than run a fluff list that is 100 percent possible.
We can have our cake and eat it too (unless you're Eldar, Admech or Necrons).
First, lack of customization and here is an example leading into number 2. Cult Terminators not being represented. These guys are 10,000 year old warriors that have the same weapon from 10,000 years ago, and have been living in the warp. How can I have them represented in the new codex? What if they aren't 10,000 years old....just 2,000...?
You can be a cult terminator WITHOUT also being from the original Heresy. I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
Well, might I point you at the Mutilator entry? Their weapons can be anything, each turn. So if you modeled some sweet Nurgle Terminators with scythes, they can swing at different initiatives and S values, and have 2 wounds! Oh, only 2,000 years old? Then don't take VoTLW. which leads to point number 2. The customization is there, its more an issue of.....
Can't or Won't?
Mutilators are terrible at every concievable level from their stats to the models themselves and CANNOT represent Cult terminators. I'm not even talking about a pure competitive game either. I mean just from a straight rules point of view. I'm really not even sure what you're driving at with this suggestion. Cult terminators had access to weapons Mutilators don't. I can't arm a Mutilator with a sonic weapon, I can't take wargear, etc etc. Can I fire my Reaper auto cannon from a Mutie and then charge into CC with my Chainfist? Nope. Obits don't work for Cult Termie replacements either.
It's not even remotely an acceptable substitute IMO. That's great if it works for you, but for those of us who take Terminators and want our Terminators to function like TERMINATORS ... no. Mutilators don't work.
So ... CAN'T
Is your meta really so competitive that you need every trick and point optimized? If so, wow this game must be a nightmare for you. Are your opponents not your friends? because that would explain some of the behavior and lists described on here. Talk to your opponent about what your expecting beforehand.
To each his own, I'm not one to diss any group's particular play style, but some of us LIKE a more competitive game. Even in my meta, when we play what you might call less-competitive and more "fluffy" games, actual CSM are just so so bad. They just aren't worth it right now and fall so far short of what they actually should be in every aspect. They've gotten consistently worse for multiple codexes and are nowhere near what they should be when you compare them to the fluff.
Put it this way, I'd bet that our Decurion would hold up vs any of the other Decurions (scat bikes aside). Maybe someone could eyeball the Eldar guardian battlehost vs. our Decurion, because we can all gauge power level by looking at lists and rules...well at least us experienced gamers (sarcasm, sorry I couldn't let that original comment slide)
It will hold up to the Orkurion. The rest? Well that remains to be seen. Multiple games have been played with the few people who bought TH at my LGS and early evidence says it makes them *slightly* better, but no, not holding up to anyone so far. Time will tell though.
And a final food for thought..What happens when we get legion rules and your legion is left in the dust? Be it bad rules, weapons that don't feel right (think vibrating swords of slaanesh), lack of customization, or anything mentioned in this post. You are already not using your current Chaos army of choice because of any of the complaints. Will it be can't? Or won't?
Yep, there's a chance some of the Legion rules might not be good. That's still better than no Legion rules at all. There's several Chapter Tactics entries that aren't great too. Doesn't seem to be dampening the enthusiasm on that side of the coin though.
For Chaos Tourney players, especially ones that travel, I understand you can't talk to your opponents. Save your breath.
This is one of the issues I see so often with CSM. The players who don't go to tourneys basically dismissing the arguments of the players who DO. The tourney players rarely say anything disparaging about the "fluffy I play in my garage" players for not playing competitively. Both sides are "right". There's really no wrong way to hobby, but your comment seems to imply otherwise (apologies if I've misunderstood it). The simple fact is, that we shouldn't have to imagine that something as awful and woefully inadequate for representing something like a Mutilator actually IS a cult terminator, and that becomes especially exagerated when you're talking about players that enjoy going to a tourney every now and then.
For example, as much as people complain about fluffy legions being impossible to represent, you can run Raptor Talon full of warp talons for Night Lords. Iron warriors would be the Demonforge pack, vehicle squadrons and obliterator cult. Will they run it? Probably not because they won't run warp talons, they want Khornes benefits and the IW folks would probably rather run demon knights and Kabal rather than run a fluff list that is 100 percent possible.
Actually, IW frequently use Berserkers in their front ranks. I'm, running a Raptor Talon pack as Knight Lords (two squads of Raptors and one squad of Warp Talons), and I'm also running the very same combo you mention for IW. For many, the issue is that the taxes are so extreme and a lot of people have simply pointed out that the thing TH probably does best is really underscore just how badly the core codex needs rewritten. In the next edition, if they fix the multitude of issues with the Warp Smith, allow Warp Talons to properly assault from DS without a disordered charge AND give CSM something reliable and not ridiculous to help mitigate DS, I think TH will suddenly be looking pretty good. Right now though? Meh ... Solid C+ to a B IMO. They had a huge uphill battle to give CSM a boost, and no one (well, no one reasonable anyway) expected TH to completely fix everything or launch CSM into the top tier. On the other hand, man, they just came so close on so many things in this book and totally missed in the end. It just feel like if they had given some of it 10 more minutes of actual thought it could have been amazing.
Looking at point 2 Tycho, Mutilators and Oblits are the closest thing to Traitor Terminators, as a matter of fact, they are quite literally whats left of the them. Or the latest evolution at least. I view them as the Chaos equivalent to GK Paladins(people were pretty stoked about 2W Termis) just with the option to use whatever weapon suits them best at the time
The first paragraph of Mutilators entry says the first were Traitor Terminators that excelled at close combat......
The stats are exactly the same between Mutis, Oblits, and Termis. They don't have assault grenades just like Termis. Same invul save, can deepstrike, and can get marks.
You want to use a Blastmaster type weapon? Well Oblits can use Plasma Cannons (blastmaster +1S, -1 AP, but you can slappa da bass too hard and it will get hot), or an assault cannon instead of a reaper. Mutis get an extra attack for 2x special weapons, combined with MoK, MoS, MoN , or MoT , they get better.
You don't have to use the Mutilator models if you don't like them.
Buckle in folks, this is about to get interesting. I will argue that 3 Mutilators are better assault units than 5 Termis out of a Landraider.
Do the math. Mutis are cheaper (completely naked 22 points cheaper), have more wounds, cause fear, have a smaller footprint, can still fit a PA lord/sorcerer, and can pick the weapons for the situation. They only have 2 fewer attacks, and would be more susceptible to ID. However, they would be jumping out of a landraider(Dirge casters), and can choose higher Int weapons to try to kill off any fists. Those naked Termis get combi-bolters and power weapons.
Soooooooooo I would believe your CAN'T(how unthinkable!), is a big WON'T!
I will wait here while you guys go do the math on Mutis vs Termis. You know where to find me.....
Automatically Appended Next Post: Accidentally left MoN on Termis, my bad. Naked termis vs naked mutis. Termis are 8 pts cheaper.
mutilators are 55 a pop base. Also, yeah, not even gonna engage on this any further. Muties have been shown (despite whatever math you dredge up) to he almost wholly ineffective in game, but mutilator threads go on for months. May be time to lock this one. lol
I've seen Mutilators used to good effect in two situations...
One was in Zone Mortalis where they aren't exposed and can do their thing with greater impunity.
The other was in an army where the player took individual
Mutilators that due to a greater number of more pressing threats went largely ignored but ultimately served to take out vehicles in the other players back field.
In general they are too slow and vulnerable for their purpose and cost.
Mutilators are one man units. I'd kill for a one man unit in the BA codex. You are going for target saturation with them, not expecting them to carry you.
Just think. If we could field 50 units of single marines, Eldar wouldn't be able to table BA or CSM without trying hard.
I think what I can't get over, is that Traitor's Hate doesn't do anything but make it more likely to take unfluffy choices or min/max. Like, most lists for the Warband are the same old crap, take minimal squads, max out on min squad havocs, don't take Raptors because they suck, min Terminators, etc.
I mean, I get people have their own styles of play, but damn it that feels dirty to me and nowhere near how the background is supposed to be. Taking a Cabal just because psychic powers are good now is a cop out. Taking min squads just to "unlock" formations is straight up powergaming. It has never and will never sit well with me, and while I fully think Traitor's Hate is an improvement over what we had before, it just feels like it made the stuff people already take that much better so they'll keep taking it.
For instance, every time I think of lists for a Chaos Warband, it's always the same kind of minimal squad powergaming cheesey bullgak as a "tax" and then see about how much of the good stuff can get crammed in to actually do the work. That does not feel correct to me.
Martel732 wrote: Mutilators are one man units. I'd kill for a one man unit in the BA codex. You are going for target saturation with them, not expecting them to carry you.
Just think. If we could field 50 units of single marines, Eldar wouldn't be able to table BA or CSM without trying hard.
That one mutilator is the price of a combat squad. And that combat squad is obsec.
Martel732 wrote: Mutilators are one man units. I'd kill for a one man unit in the BA codex. You are going for target saturation with them, not expecting them to carry you.
Just think. If we could field 50 units of single marines, Eldar wouldn't be able to table BA or CSM without trying hard.
WayneTheGame wrote: I think what I can't get over, is that Traitor's Hate doesn't do anything but make it more likely to take unfluffy choices or min/max. Like, most lists for the Warband are the same old crap, take minimal squads, max out on min squad havocs, don't take Raptors because they suck, min Terminators, etc.
I mean, I get people have their own styles of play, but damn it that feels dirty to me and nowhere near how the background is supposed to be. Taking a Cabal just because psychic powers are good now is a cop out. Taking min squads just to "unlock" formations is straight up powergaming. It has never and will never sit well with me, and while I fully think Traitor's Hate is an improvement over what we had before, it just feels like it made the stuff people already take that much better so they'll keep taking it.
For instance, every time I think of lists for a Chaos Warband, it's always the same kind of minimal squad powergaming cheesey bullgak as a "tax" and then see about how much of the good stuff can get crammed in to actually do the work. That does not feel correct to me.
40k has been like this for ages. Minimum troops to cram heavy support or elites was a thing in the past too.
Martel732 wrote: Mutilators are one man units. I'd kill for a one man unit in the BA codex. You are going for target saturation with them, not expecting them to carry you.
Just think. If we could field 50 units of single marines, Eldar wouldn't be able to table BA or CSM without trying hard.
Scouts aren't bad anymore...
Without chapter tactics and/or a LSS (why the feth to BA still not have this?)to ferry them around the non-sniper kind are actually pretty bad. Their online use is for locator beacons or messing with the opponents infiltrators.
Martel732 wrote: Mutilators are one man units. I'd kill for a one man unit in the BA codex. You are going for target saturation with them, not expecting them to carry you.
Just think. If we could field 50 units of single marines, Eldar wouldn't be able to table BA or CSM without trying hard.
Scouts aren't bad anymore...
Without chapter tactics and/or a LSS (why the feth to BA still not have this?)to ferry them around the non-sniper kind are actually pretty bad. Their online use is for locator beacons or messing with the opponents infiltrators.
They're errata'd to have the WS4. And BS4 for Shotgun lovers. All you really need is the furious charge at that point. They're an easily spammed OS unit and would cost the same as a Mutilator with none of the drawbacks.
Martel732 wrote: Mutilators are one man units. I'd kill for a one man unit in the BA codex. You are going for target saturation with them, not expecting them to carry you.
Just think. If we could field 50 units of single marines, Eldar wouldn't be able to table BA or CSM without trying hard.
Scouts aren't bad anymore...
Without chapter tactics and/or a LSS (why the feth to BA still not have this?)to ferry them around the non-sniper kind are actually pretty bad. Their online use is for locator beacons or messing with the opponents infiltrators.
They're errata'd to have the WS4. And BS4 for Shotgun lovers. All you really need is the furious charge at that point. They're an easily spammed OS unit and would cost the same as a Mutilator with none of the drawbacks.
Drawbacks like flesh metal or drawbacks like being a 65 point distraction fexes that deepstrikes?
OS doesn't mean jack if they can't reach the objective before they're smoked. MSU is fine unless you blow over to a stiff breeze. Furious charge? With shotgun scouts? Seriously?
WayneTheGame wrote: I think what I can't get over, is that Traitor's Hate doesn't do anything but make it more likely to take unfluffy choices or min/max.
U kidding, right? It buffs oblits, terminators, raptors and even warp talons.
WayneTheGame wrote: I think what I can't get over, is that Traitor's Hate doesn't do anything but make it more likely to take unfluffy choices or min/max. Like, most lists for the Warband are the same old crap, take minimal squads, max out on min squad havocs, don't take Raptors because they suck, min Terminators, etc.
I mean, I get people have their own styles of play, but damn it that feels dirty to me and nowhere near how the background is supposed to be. Taking a Cabal just because psychic powers are good now is a cop out. Taking min squads just to "unlock" formations is straight up powergaming. It has never and will never sit well with me, and while I fully think Traitor's Hate is an improvement over what we had before, it just feels like it made the stuff people already take that much better so they'll keep taking it.
For instance, every time I think of lists for a Chaos Warband, it's always the same kind of minimal squad powergaming cheesey bullgak as a "tax" and then see about how much of the good stuff can get crammed in to actually do the work. That does not feel correct to me.
40k has been like this for ages. Minimum troops to cram heavy support or elites was a thing in the past too.
Yes and it was looked down upon then too. I played in the days when "Mauleed Marines" (6-man lascannon/plasma back before they took that option away) was the optimal way to play. It was still gak.
However that said I think I might be coming around to the viability of this supplement. The fact that I actually sat down to paint a model for the Army I was thinking of and found not only did I forget how annoying red is to paint, but also I cannot really nailed down the correct colors. So my backup plan involves this supplement
WayneTheGame wrote: I think what I can't get over, is that Traitor's Hate doesn't do anything but make it more likely to take unfluffy choices or min/max.
U kidding, right? It buffs oblits, terminators, raptors and even warp talons.
No I'm not kidding. Those units got better, but are still pretty gakky. Also, they require expensive formations. Which is fine if you want to ally in a Lord with a band of Raptors/Talons, and still screw you if like me you just like how Raptors look and maybe want to consider a squad in your normal army, not a full on "second army" approach to it.
Martel732 wrote: Mutilators are one man units. I'd kill for a one man unit in the BA codex. You are going for target saturation with them, not expecting them to carry you.
Just think. If we could field 50 units of single marines, Eldar wouldn't be able to table BA or CSM without trying hard.
Scouts aren't bad anymore...
Without chapter tactics and/or a LSS (why the feth to BA still not have this?)to ferry them around the non-sniper kind are actually pretty bad. Their online use is for locator beacons or messing with the opponents infiltrators.
They're errata'd to have the WS4. And BS4 for Shotgun lovers. All you really need is the furious charge at that point. They're an easily spammed OS unit and would cost the same as a Mutilator with none of the drawbacks.
Drawbacks like flesh metal or drawbacks like being a 65 point distraction fexes that deepstrikes?
OS doesn't mean jack if they can't reach the objective before they're smoked. MSU is fine unless you blow over to a stiff breeze. Furious charge? With shotgun scouts? Seriously?
Drawbacks being that they suffer more per wound lost, don't make as much use of cover, have slow and purposeful so they can't even be an effective distraction, and still don't have OS.
You can't seriously be suggesting that Mutilators are better than any form of Space Marine Scouts. That's just the dumbest thing I've about read on this site outside of people actually defending them as a unit.
Martel732 wrote: Mutilators are one man units. I'd kill for a one man unit in the BA codex. You are going for target saturation with them, not expecting them to carry you.
Just think. If we could field 50 units of single marines, Eldar wouldn't be able to table BA or CSM without trying hard.
Scouts aren't bad anymore...
Without chapter tactics and/or a LSS (why the feth to BA still not have this?)to ferry them around the non-sniper kind are actually pretty bad. Their online use is for locator beacons or messing with the opponents infiltrators.
They're errata'd to have the WS4. And BS4 for Shotgun lovers. All you really need is the furious charge at that point. They're an easily spammed OS unit and would cost the same as a Mutilator with none of the drawbacks.
Drawbacks like flesh metal or drawbacks like being a 65 point distraction fexes that deepstrikes?
OS doesn't mean jack if they can't reach the objective before they're smoked. MSU is fine unless you blow over to a stiff breeze. Furious charge? With shotgun scouts? Seriously?
Drawbacks being that they suffer more per wound lost, don't make as much use of cover, have slow and purposeful so they can't even be an effective distraction, and still don't have OS.
You can't seriously be suggesting that Mutilators are better than any form of Space Marine Scouts. That's just the dumbest thing I've about read on this site outside of people actually defending them as a unit.
I'm not saying that they're better. I'm not saying that they're worse either. Both have their uses, but really the best thing scouts have going for them is obsec, infultrate and the fact that they aren't tactical marines. Unless you run in a highly competitive meta, Mutilators can work. I've done so a few rimes. The only problem is the slots they compete for. That's where the scouts come out way ahead.
Having said that, I suggest you try out footslogging MSU scouts from objective to objective. Without the Storm they are more or less reduced to camping or hoping to come in on a board edge with ruins to hide in.
Martel732 wrote: Mutilators are one man units. I'd kill for a one man unit in the BA codex. You are going for target saturation with them, not expecting them to carry you.
Just think. If we could field 50 units of single marines, Eldar wouldn't be able to table BA or CSM without trying hard.
Scouts aren't bad anymore...
Without chapter tactics and/or a LSS (why the feth to BA still not have this?)to ferry them around the non-sniper kind are actually pretty bad. Their online use is for locator beacons or messing with the opponents infiltrators.
They're errata'd to have the WS4. And BS4 for Shotgun lovers. All you really need is the furious charge at that point. They're an easily spammed OS unit and would cost the same as a Mutilator with none of the drawbacks.
Drawbacks like flesh metal or drawbacks like being a 65 point distraction fexes that deepstrikes?
OS doesn't mean jack if they can't reach the objective before they're smoked. MSU is fine unless you blow over to a stiff breeze. Furious charge? With shotgun scouts? Seriously?
Drawbacks being that they suffer more per wound lost, don't make as much use of cover, have slow and purposeful so they can't even be an effective distraction, and still don't have OS.
You can't seriously be suggesting that Mutilators are better than any form of Space Marine Scouts. That's just the dumbest thing I've about read on this site outside of people actually defending them as a unit.
I'm not saying that they're better. I'm not saying that they're worse either. Both have their uses, but really the best thing scouts have going for them is obsec, infultrate and the fact that they aren't tactical marines. Unless you run in a highly competitive meta, Mutilators can work. I've done so a few rimes. The only problem is the slots they compete for. That's where the scouts come out way ahead.
Having said that, I suggest you try out footslogging MSU scouts from objective to objective. Without the Storm they are more or less reduced to camping or hoping to come in on a board edge with ruins to hide in.
Saying they work in a non-competitive environment is a non-argument and essentially you agreeing with me.
And yes I've footslogged Scouts before. If I think I can save points based off other threats in my army I'll sometimes do so. They're mostly a unit to either stick on an objective or harass weak units.
Funny, because 2 out of the 3 times I ran them, it was against Reclaimation/Canoptek bullshittery. The 3 was against ravenwing. I would consider those competitive and I took all 3 by a pretty wide margin. They weren't MVP by a long shot, but I definitely don't regret bringing them.
And if you think units have to be able to hang with cutthroat tournament armies to be viable, you should probably broaden your horizons my friend.
Dantes_Baals wrote: Funny, because 2 out of the 3 times I ran them, it was against Reclaimation/Canoptek bullshittery. The 3 was against ravenwing. I would consider those competitive and I took all 3 by a pretty wide margin. They weren't MVP by a long shot, but I definitely don't regret bringing them.
And if you think units have to be able to hang with cutthroat tournament armies to be viable, you should probably broaden your horizons my friend.
Your last statement makes no sense. If you're not talking about a unit's or upgrade's viability in a cutthroat environment, there's nothing to discuss, and therefore everyone's a winner and a special snowflake and everything is cool and viable!
Or you can look at the math and use basic math. As someone that uses Necrons and Biker variants of Space Marines I would laugh at you bringing Mutilators. As someone that also uses Skitarii and CSM, I would laugh at you bringing Mutilators. They're one of the best examples of what is junk in this game and how you can measure it.
Dantes_Baals wrote: Funny, because 2 out of the 3 times I ran them, it was against Reclaimation/Canoptek bullshittery. The 3 was against ravenwing. I would consider those competitive and I took all 3 by a pretty wide margin. They weren't MVP by a long shot, but I definitely don't regret bringing them.
And if you think units have to be able to hang with cutthroat tournament armies to be viable, you should probably broaden your horizons my friend.
Your last statement makes no sense. If you're not talking about a unit's or upgrade's viability in a cutthroat environment, there's nothing to discuss, and therefore everyone's a winner and a special snowflake and everything is cool and viable!
Or you can look at the math and use basic math. As someone that uses Necrons and Biker variants of Space Marines I would laugh at you bringing Mutilators. As someone that also uses Skitarii and CSM, I would laugh at you bringing Mutilators. They're one of the best examples of what is junk in this game and how you can measure it.
They did laugh. And they stopped when I tarpitted lychguard for 3 turns in one game and crunched a stalker and a ghost ark in the other. So you're saying "if it can't win tournaments, it isn't worth taking, right "? Well well opinions etc etc, but if you are frustrated with the current state of 40k I can kind of see why. Of this is actually your idea of fun we aren't really playing the same game anyway so this whole argument has been moot. If you have all these armies why don't you just save the CSM for LGS games, instead of banging your head against a rock with them against Demicompany/Skyhammer and Scat bikes at tournies? Unless your whole meta is like that. In which case... im sorry.
Honestly man I think most CSM players have their "Enjoy/Whine" switch permanently stuck on whine.
Dantes_Baals wrote: Funny, because 2 out of the 3 times I ran them, it was against Reclaimation/Canoptek bullshittery. The 3 was against ravenwing. I would consider those competitive and I took all 3 by a pretty wide margin. They weren't MVP by a long shot, but I definitely don't regret bringing them.
And if you think units have to be able to hang with cutthroat tournament armies to be viable, you should probably broaden your horizons my friend.
Your last statement makes no sense. If you're not talking about a unit's or upgrade's viability in a cutthroat environment, there's nothing to discuss, and therefore everyone's a winner and a special snowflake and everything is cool and viable!
Or you can look at the math and use basic math. As someone that uses Necrons and Biker variants of Space Marines I would laugh at you bringing Mutilators. As someone that also uses Skitarii and CSM, I would laugh at you bringing Mutilators. They're one of the best examples of what is junk in this game and how you can measure it.
They did laugh. And they stopped when I tarpitted lychguard for 3 turns in one game and crunched a stalker and a ghost ark in the other. So you're saying "if it can't win tournaments, it isn't worth taking, right "? Well well opinions etc etc, but if you are frustrated with the current state of 40k I can kind of see why. Of this is actually your idea of fun we aren't really playing the same game anyway so this whole argument has been moot. If you have all these armies why don't you just save the CSM for LGS games, instead of banging your head against a rock with them against Demicompany/Skyhammer and Scat bikes at tournies? Unless your whole meta is like that. In which case... im sorry.
Honestly man I think most CSM players have their "Enjoy/Whine" switch permanently stuck on whine.
If Lychgaurd were stuck for three turns, that was because of poor rolling, not because of Mutilator performance (especially with Scythe Guard). Your opponent is also garbage for a Ghost Ark getting caught. I can understand Stalker, but the Ark getting caught shows someone that isn't good at the game.
So Mutilators do one thing against a bad opponent and you think you have proof of them getting the job done? This is why you don't see CSM players topping anywhere.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: I have to agree with that, how do you let a Ghost Ark get caught by a Mutilator?
Deep struck with 2 Mutilators next to an ark that was blocked in by Rhinos on one side and had to land in difficult. Immobilized itself when it tried to land. The Warriors shot at the Rhinos because they were down to a HP a piece with melta guns CSMs in melta range inside.
Dantes_Baals wrote: Funny, because 2 out of the 3 times I ran them, it was against Reclaimation/Canoptek bullshittery. The 3 was against ravenwing. I would consider those competitive and I took all 3 by a pretty wide margin. They weren't MVP by a long shot, but I definitely don't regret bringing them.
And if you think units have to be able to hang with cutthroat tournament armies to be viable, you should probably broaden your horizons my friend.
Your last statement makes no sense. If you're not talking about a unit's or upgrade's viability in a cutthroat environment, there's nothing to discuss, and therefore everyone's a winner and a special snowflake and everything is cool and viable!
Or you can look at the math and use basic math. As someone that uses Necrons and Biker variants of Space Marines I would laugh at you bringing Mutilators. As someone that also uses Skitarii and CSM, I would laugh at you bringing Mutilators. They're one of the best examples of what is junk in this game and how you can measure it.
They did laugh. And they stopped when I tarpitted lychguard for 3 turns in one game and crunched a stalker and a ghost ark in the other. So you're saying "if it can't win tournaments, it isn't worth taking, right "? Well well opinions etc etc, but if you are frustrated with the current state of 40k I can kind of see why. Of this is actually your idea of fun we aren't really playing the same game anyway so this whole argument has been moot. If you have all these armies why don't you just save the CSM for LGS games, instead of banging your head against a rock with them against Demicompany/Skyhammer and Scat bikes at tournies? Unless your whole meta is like that. In which case... im sorry.
Honestly man I think most CSM players have their "Enjoy/Whine" switch permanently stuck on whine.
If Lychgaurd were stuck for three turns, that was because of poor rolling, not because of Mutilator performance (especially with Scythe Guard). Your opponent is also garbage for a Ghost Ark getting caught. I can understand Stalker, but the Ark getting caught shows someone that isn't good at the game.
So Mutilators do one thing against a bad opponent and you think you have proof of them getting the job done? This is why you don't see CSM players topping anywhere.
He took sword and board guard. Which made sense because I was running Kabal, all with telepathy, 2 turkeys and a crap-ton of plasma guns on the field.
I love it when people assume so much. It makes their arguments that much weaker. One last time , chief. I'm not saying they're a great unit. I'm definitely not saying they're a very good choice (compared to their competitiors). All I'm saying is that they have a purpose, and can work if played properly. Had I not cornered him with the melta/rhinos, he would have gotten away for sure. And 2 T5 2W models with a 2+ save aren't that easy for warriors to delete.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: I have to agree with that, how do you let a Ghost Ark get caught by a Mutilator?
Deep struck with 2 Mutilators next to an ark that was blocked in by Rhinos on one side and had to land in difficult. Immobilized itself when it tried to land. The Warriors shot at the Rhinos because they were down to a HP a piece with melta guns CSMs in melta range inside.
Now the Ark was blocked in by Rhinos and the guy decided to shoot at the Rhinos, keeping the Melta Marines safe, instead of shooting at the Mutilator when the Ghost Ark can just jink the Melta shots away?
Don't you see something wrong here? Like a REALLY bad player getting into the most unrealistic scenarios?
Or he blows his jink, gets his ark blown up anyway and his warriors ground to bits by the Mutilators? And he was trying to shave the last HP off of the rhino so the Warriors could double tap the 6 man squad inside (was a 10 man that took casualties ). So either try and leave through difficult, immobilize on a 1, or have really, really bad gak happen if he fails any one of 4, 4 up jink saves.
Look man, try to downplay it however you want. By now I'm pretty sure you're trying to justify your opinion (why? It's an opinion ffs) that they are totally worthless. It was a game of toy soldiers that took place a while back. I'm gonna take the high road here and agree to disagree on their capabilities.
This reminds me of a situation where I had Tactical marines tarpit a Wraithknight. Internet says "Hurr, can't be done!" Experience says it happens, and it's totally legit.
Dantes_Baals wrote: Or he blows his jink, gets his ark blown up anyway and his warriors ground to bits by the Mutilators? And he was trying to shave the last HP off of the rhino so the Warriors could double tap the 6 man squad inside (was a 10 man that took casualties ). So either try and leave through difficult, immobilize on a 1, or have really, really bad gak happen if he fails any one of 4, 4 up jink saves.
Look man, try to downplay it however you want. By now I'm pretty sure you're trying to justify your opinion (why? It's an opinion ffs) that they are totally worthless. It was a game of toy soldiers that took place a while back. I'm gonna take the high road here and agree to disagree on their capabilities.
It isn't that hard.
1. One set of of Arrays targets a Rhino. The Warriors shoot at the Mutilator. The other array targets either the other Rhino or the Mutilator.
2. The Warriors charge the Mutilator thanks to Relentless, and a Mutilator doesn't even have good odds of killing one.
3. Jink is fine for the most part as you have to hit then Penetrate and THEN fail the Jink. Because Melta REALLY isn't that dangerous and therefore risking a failed Jink is better, and therefore your opponent was bad and you should feel bad as using it as part of the pathetic defense that is being used for the Mutilators.
Dantes_Baals wrote: Or he blows his jink, gets his ark blown up anyway and his warriors ground to bits by the Mutilators? And he was trying to shave the last HP off of the rhino so the Warriors could double tap the 6 man squad inside (was a 10 man that took casualties ). So either try and leave through difficult, immobilize on a 1, or have really, really bad gak happen if he fails any one of 4, 4 up jink saves.
Look man, try to downplay it however you want. By now I'm pretty sure you're trying to justify your opinion (why? It's an opinion ffs) that they are totally worthless. It was a game of toy soldiers that took place a while back. I'm gonna take the high road here and agree to disagree on their capabilities.
It isn't that hard.
1. One set of of Arrays targets a Rhino. The Warriors shoot at the Mutilator. The other array targets either the other Rhino or the Mutilator.
2. The Warriors charge the Mutilator thanks to Relentless, and a Mutilator doesn't even have good odds of killing one.
3. Jink is fine for the most part as you have to hit then Penetrate and THEN fail the Jink. Because Melta REALLY isn't that dangerous and therefore risking a failed Jink is better, and therefore your opponent was bad and you should feel bad as using it as part of the pathetic defense that is being used for the Mutilators.
This post is awful. Honestly, how a Marine with two powerfist attacks has a bad chance of killing one Warrior (who might only have a 6+ save against it!) is a bad assumption. Telling one player that they are bad and another to feel bad just because the facts of the game are against your opinion is sickening. Whatever math-hammer you play, this happened and Mutilators did something cool. Just admit that your opinion is valid in most environments and his opinion is valid in others and don't be such a dick about it.
Dantes_Baals wrote: Or he blows his jink, gets his ark blown up anyway and his warriors ground to bits by the Mutilators? And he was trying to shave the last HP off of the rhino so the Warriors could double tap the 6 man squad inside (was a 10 man that took casualties ). So either try and leave through difficult, immobilize on a 1, or have really, really bad gak happen if he fails any one of 4, 4 up jink saves.
Look man, try to downplay it however you want. By now I'm pretty sure you're trying to justify your opinion (why? It's an opinion ffs) that they are totally worthless. It was a game of toy soldiers that took place a while back. I'm gonna take the high road here and agree to disagree on their capabilities.
It isn't that hard.
1. One set of of Arrays targets a Rhino. The Warriors shoot at the Mutilator. The other array targets either the other Rhino or the Mutilator.
2. The Warriors charge the Mutilator thanks to Relentless, and a Mutilator doesn't even have good odds of killing one.
3. Jink is fine for the most part as you have to hit then Penetrate and THEN fail the Jink. Because Melta REALLY isn't that dangerous and therefore risking a failed Jink is better, and therefore your opponent was bad and you should feel bad as using it as part of the pathetic defense that is being used for the Mutilators.
This post is awful. Honestly, how a Marine with two powerfist attacks has a bad chance of killing one Warrior (who might only have a 6+ save against it!) is a bad assumption. Telling one player that they are bad and another to feel bad just because the facts of the game are against your opinion is sickening. Whatever math-hammer you play, this happened and Mutilators did something cool. Just admit that your opinion is valid in most environments and his opinion is valid in others and don't be such a dick about it.
1. The Mutilator strikes last in this situation you create. Based off that, we can assume that he is likely dead after the Warriors shooting and swinging.
2. The Warrior will get a 5++ because of the Decurion.
It is a dick move to spread misinformation. Mutilators are garbage and until that is fixed we need to encourage people not to buy them and trying to fit them into lists.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Seriously, the Mutilator will kill on average less than 1 Warrior. Did you even bother doing the math on that?
Insectum7 wrote: This reminds me of a situation where I had Tactical marines tarpit a Wraithknight. Internet says "Hurr, can't be done!" Experience says it happens, and it's totally legit.
The thing is that nearly everything can happen, though between the stomps and blades that usually won't be tying up a wraithknight too long, barring bad rolls.
Nobody is saying it CAN'T be done, but just how bad a play did you make that it DID happen.
A IG Sarge could blow up Land Raiders with melta bombs, still doesn't make it a likely event or makes them epic tank hunters!
Slayer-Fan123 just has Hatred (Chaos Space Marines) and Preferred Enemy (Mutlators).
Statistically, 10 warriors will deal around 0.75 wounds to a mutilator with rapid fire. So, it's not a given they'd even wound him. The most reliable thing for them is indeed just try to roll away behind difterrain hoping for him to fail dt tests and charges with a -2 modifier. Or concentrate fire on him risking to not do enough to melta rhinos.
This post is awful. Honestly, how a Marine with two powerfist attacks has a bad chance of killing one Warrior (who might only have a 6+ save against it!) is a bad assumption.
3 attacks for 2 ccw, also fear - vs ld10 though, but all might happen. Even if 10 warriors charge a mutilator, it's still around 0.55 wounds from an ideal necron charge which is also a gamble. And in return he's gona inflict 1.25 wounds with chain fists which would get downgraded to around 0.76 with decurion and lord nearby, 0.83 with decurion and no lord nearby and 1.04 without decurion.
Not terrible odds for a 61 pt model. The main difficulty is to arrive and ds though.
Insectum7 wrote: This reminds me of a situation where I had Tactical marines tarpit a Wraithknight. Internet says "Hurr, can't be done!" Experience says it happens, and it's totally legit.
The thing is that nearly everything can happen, though between the stomps and blades that usually won't be tying up a wraithknight too long, barring bad rolls.
Nobody is saying it CAN'T be done, but just how bad a play did you make that it DID happen.
What bad play did I make? Ha! They were MY Tactical marines!
Statisticshammer is great and all, but it's hard to put values on positioning, reserves, timing and context.
Insectum7 wrote: This reminds me of a situation where I had Tactical marines tarpit a Wraithknight. Internet says "Hurr, can't be done!" Experience says it happens, and it's totally legit.
The thing is that nearly everything can happen, though between the stomps and blades that usually won't be tying up a wraithknight too long, barring bad rolls.
Nobody is saying it CAN'T be done, but just how bad a play did you make that it DID happen.
What bad play did I make? Ha! They were MY Tactical marines!
Statisticshammer is great and all, but it's hard to put values on positioning, reserves, timing and context.
Nah not you, your opponent did in that case (Was referring to the mutilator/ghost ark conundrum), and it's funny that I'm actually defending mathhammer because I'm not too fond of it either, but some things are just so unlikely given things, I mean 5 grots could potentially kill 10 GK paladins.. But really it's just so unlikely to do so.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Most of the necron players (2/3) in my area don't run Decurion because they think it is unfun.
Never assume, because it makes an ass out of you and me!
I assume people are playing their best and not being God awful fluff bunnies. You're not helping your case at all.
Why are fluff bunnies awful? And do I have a case? I'm just having a discussion.
They make discussions terrible. They can't grasp good playing and ultimately do the good old "if you don't like the list don't play it" garbage. It helps nobody.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Most of the necron players (2/3) in my area don't run Decurion because they think it is unfun.
Never assume, because it makes an ass out of you and me!
I assume people are playing their best and not being God awful fluff bunnies. You're not helping your case at all.
Why are fluff bunnies awful? And do I have a case? I'm just having a discussion.
They make discussions terrible. They can't grasp good playing and ultimately do the good old "if you don't like the list don't play it" garbage. It helps nobody.
Also I mistook you for Dantes_Baal or whatever.
I'm offended that you think I make discussions terrible, and I don't think that helps no one. My local play groups in every city I've lived in have used the "If you don't like the list don't play it" mantra, and seem to be doing well! In fact, I'm usually on the receiving end of not-being-played, with my Ordinatus battery. But discussing things ahead of time helps tremendously when I am trying to get a game.
EDIT: Also, this isn't the tactics forum (which I mostly stay away from, since I know fluff isn't usually useful in those sorts of discussions).
To get back on topic, I found Traitor's Hate distinctly average. It's an improvement to CSM (Yay!) but not enough (Boo!). There's a few nice toys there, but not enough to make me want to pick up my CSM again.
How does a 8 man bike squad (unmarked) with an attached Lord and Sorcerer (level 3, fishing for Shrouded and/or Invisibility) sound using the new Chaos Warband benefits?
Force Sword on the Sorcerer, Power Axe on Lord and Bike Champion, and 2 Meltaguns on the bikers?
Insectum7 wrote: This reminds me of a situation where I had Tactical marines tarpit a Wraithknight. Internet says "Hurr, can't be done!" Experience says it happens, and it's totally legit.
My Emperor's Champion, uninjured, charged 2 kroot, wiffed completely on his attacks, and failed both armor saves from the Kroots' attacks back. gak happens! Been there! Bought the T-Shirt!
Because you aren't playing a Nurgle-themed force? Or are you one of those "just take it and say it's bionics" people that try to shoehorn things that don't make sense by saying they are something else entirely to justify taking them?
Because you aren't playing a Nurgle-themed force? Or are you one of those "just take it and say it's bionics" people that try to shoehorn things that don't make sense by saying they are something else entirely to justify taking them?
It is majority T6 though. It is silly not to take it outside the Sorcerer.
@ Kronk the bike unit sounds... interesting. I'd look into it for low points games. Probable my is they arent quite a deathstar, not quite a nimble scoring unit.
I think everyone would be fine with any csm codex if all the models where not from the 1900s oe what ever the feth you call mulators... Looks like they let a fan go ape gak with green stuff on a terminator.
Insectum7 wrote: This reminds me of a situation where I had Tactical marines tarpit a Wraithknight. Internet says "Hurr, can't be done!" Experience says it happens, and it's totally legit.
My Emperor's Champion, uninjured, charged 2 kroot, wiffed completely on his attacks, and failed both armor saves from the Kroots' attacks back. gak happens! Been there! Bought the T-Shirt!
Well, I guess the difference there is expectations. I can reasonably expect five marines to last through a round of combat or two with a WK, but I'd expect the Emperors Champion to at least come out ahead in your scenario.
Although the original comment was really more about the complexities of game context in the first place. With "theoryhammer" Tactical marines aren't even "supposed" to be able to charge a WK in the first place, but that's just not taking the whole picture into account.
I think Chaos suffers a little bit from this. You look at them and think "they're marines, so they should fight like marines." But they're not marines, and as a whole maybe wind up having to fight in different sorts of ways.
Because you aren't playing a Nurgle-themed force? Or are you one of those "just take it and say it's bionics" people that try to shoehorn things that don't make sense by saying they are something else entirely to justify taking them?
It is majority T6 though. It is silly not to take it outside the Sorcerer.
Nurgle bikers are strong but 8 MoN bikes could be 10 unmarked bikes, with a few points to spare. Against S3 or S8+ shooting/CC attacks there's no difference, and the extra bodies aren't just extra wounds but a few extra attacks and shots. I'm not saying unmarked is necessarily better but I don't think the difference isn't so much that MoN is an auto include. The lord has a better argument for the mark though
Because you aren't playing a Nurgle-themed force? Or are you one of those "just take it and say it's bionics" people that try to shoehorn things that don't make sense by saying they are something else entirely to justify taking them?
It is majority T6 though. It is silly not to take it outside the Sorcerer.
Nurgle bikers are strong but 8 MoN bikes could be 10 unmarked bikes, with a few points to spare. Against S3 or S8+ shooting/CC attacks there's no difference, and the extra bodies aren't just extra wounds but a few extra attacks and shots. I'm not saying unmarked is necessarily better but I don't think the difference isn't so much that MoN is an auto include. The lord has a better argument for the mark though
There's also (with Crimson Slaughter) running bikers with MoS and IoE. Mark a biker lord with Mos and toss on Daemonheart and SoC, you get a lord with T5, 2+/4++ plus IWND and FNP.
I have been playing a lot of lost and the damned and I find in objective based games it can be downright OP. Although in games of purge the alien or malestrom it is incredibly underwhelming.
To clarify, in objective based games there is a high likelyhood your cultists will wear the enemy down over time, especially if you have them in cover with a 4+ save. Your opponent will either avoid them or try and blow them to pieces, both are advantageous for you. It feels great to have an undying horde.
BUT in purge the alien your screwed, almost an auto loss. With maelstrom of war your opponent can easily wrack up a lot of objective points with your easily murdered units. My opponent wracked up 12 VP 2nd turn on maelstrom of war... he was lucky but the cultists gave him a lot of freedom to get those points.
All in all if your a good player this formation can be an valuble asset if you like a horde based playstyle. Im looking to playtest a whole bunch of CC cultists in the coming weeks, just run them at the enemy and see what happens!
For the above questions about Nurgle, I would only ever mark my Chaos Warband Tzeentch for fluff reasons, but I'd rather them be unmarked. They're more renegades than chaos worshipers. Only the main sorcerer (there are two) worships any of the Chaos Gods/Powers.
Dantes_Baals wrote: @ Kronk the bike unit sounds... interesting. I'd look into it for low points games. Probable my is they arent quite a deathstar, not quite a nimble scoring unit.
Yeah, I get that it's not terribly powerful as far a deathstars go, but it does move rather fast and would have objective secured. If you can pull off Shrouded and/or invisibility, it could last long enough to get around the table, but it's still only sporting 2 Power Axes (Lord and Champion) and a force sword.
