I have been pondering this for awhile, I have made several suggestions in regards to this subject and for the most part have been shot down so I am a bit curious. What do you guys think of Lootas and what would be a good way to make them more playable?


Atm my biggest problems with Lootas are:
1: Heavy Support choices in an incredibly crowded heavy support slot (They used to be elites)
2: Glass Peashooters. Not even glass cannons, they tend to die as soon as they are targeted. Any weapon with Ignores Cover eats them alive.
3: HIGHLY unpredictable. They either put out 45 shots (15hits) a turn or they put out 15 shots (5 hits)
and finally
4: They are boring, there are no upgrades for them, they can't do anything besides shoot and die.


I honestly don't know how they could be improved, every time I say reduce the cost of them all it does is lowers the investment into a crappy unit. And nobody really wants to see them drop to much more.

When I point out how little Dakka they have and suggest adding D3+1 or maybe upping their BS to 3 people say that is to much.

Going with not enough dakka is how random they are, they either put out a lot of shots or they fall on their faces. Adding to that problem is the fact that they are LD7 with a 6+ Save. They tend to die and then run off the board.....A LOT!

Finally, they carry a heavy weapon so they don't usually run around the board, they don't have armor so they can't tank shots, they don't have good leadership so they run off the board a lot and they have ZERO upgrades to make them better in anyway shape or form unless you really want to lose a gun and add in a Mek to give you that all important Mob Rule (Kill yourself) LD check.

What do you think would be a good way to make Lootas more playable or at the very least more enjoyable to field.

I think that fielding Lootas as a "artillery" unit of dakkagunners is boring, especially since they're in the same slot as Mek Gunz. That, and the fact that somehow fielding a giant artillery cannon is somehow beneath an Ork yet strapping a smaller gun to your body is somehow Orky also eludes me.

Part of me feels like they should be a "tech" unit/specialist unit capable of some gimmicks here and there. They're an Elite that start off with non-Twinlinked Dakkagunz and Blue Paint (a 6+ Invulnerable Save, or +1 to existing Invulnerables) and everytime a model within 6"-12" (tweak the range) of a Loota dies, there is a chance of one of the Loota units being able to "acquire" a weapon that model used to carry.

Optionally, should they succeed in wrecking a vehicle or killing a Monstrous Creature, they may remove a number of models to their unit equal to the max wounds/HP of the dead vehicle/monster in order to "take control" of it.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I think that fielding Lootas as a "artillery" unit of dakkagunners is boring, especially since they're in the same slot as Mek Gunz. That, and the fact that somehow fielding a giant artillery cannon is somehow beneath an Ork yet strapping a smaller gun to your body is somehow Orky also eludes me.

Part of me feels like they should be a "tech" unit/specialist unit capable of some gimmicks here and there. They're an Elite that start off with non-Twinlinked Dakkagunz and Blue Paint (a 6+ Invulnerable Save, or +1 to existing Invulnerables) and everytime a model within 6"-12" (tweak the range) of a Loota dies, there is a chance of one of the Loota units being able to "acquire" a weapon that model used to carry.

Optionally, should they succeed in wrecking a vehicle or killing a Monstrous Creature, they may remove a number of models to their unit equal to the max wounds/HP of the dead vehicle/monster in order to "take control" of it.

Controlling an enemy vehicle/MC would be really, really cool. And probably also really, really unbalanced.

I don't really use them in units larger than 5 models. I do use 2 ,3 or more units like that depending on what I'm doing with that list.
My last game I used two mobs of 5. one mob rolled 15 shot 3 out of 4 turns the other rolled 10 for 2 or 3 turns and only 5 for a turn or two, can't exactly remember. That's fairly good for so low of a points investment. It also takes more commitment from enemy units to remove them. What did they kill. Stealth Suits, Tau Skimmers and wounded Crisis suits, removed drones and were killed.They supported my green tide, with 10 big shootas and 2 Dakka Jets. They did really well.
For me keeping them cheap has worked really well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Adding this in, I'd love it if they were BS3 for the same points costs they are now!

I think Lootas are actually okay as they are though they are a bit one dimensional. Gitfindas, bosspole, ammo runts, D3 re-rolling and camo cloak-esque equipment would be a nice addition though.

Heavy Support is definitely overcrowded but there aren't many good choices there except Battlewagons, Mek Gunz and of course the Lootas themselves. Lootas feel like a true HS choice to me but Flash Gitz should be moved to Elites and perhaps they'd get used occasionally.

I don't think the Over crowded heavy support is even an issue in 7th edition with 7th edition list building. Maybe if your restricting yourself to some kind of format but not in normal games.

 warhead01 wrote:
I don't think the Over crowded heavy support is even an issue in 7th edition with 7th edition list building. Maybe if your restricting yourself to some kind of format but not in normal games.

well if you want to take them and not have to worry about HS slots as an ork player you then have to invest in 2 squads of useless grots and a Big Mek. So your taking about 100pts worth of garbage objective holders just to ensure you can take a couple extra HS slots and that is only if your tournament or local area allows multiple CADS or detachments/formations.

The only competitive builds from orks involve utilizing a lot of heavy support slots for Mek gunz or Battlewagons to transport Elite/troop choices into CC.

I think moving them to Elite makes sense. I also think a couple of our units should be able to be taken in multiple CAD slots. Kanz should be elite/heavy, Burna/Tankbustas should be elite/troop and so on it would be crazy but it would give the ork players more tactical flexibility without wasting points on useless units.

I always take 1 or 2 mobs of grot anyway, mostly to unlock extra slots or as a way to take units that aren't boys mobs. So it's all the same to me. I don't really thing the elite slots are very good right now and I would be for more dakka, that would let me easily double down on slots in a more useful way. effectively opening 6 useful slots. Right now if I only had one of your ideas to choose from, I think BS 3 is winning. But it's a close race, now that I'm thinking about it. that could be those 6 more slots...

BS 3 means instead of 10 shots hitting out of 30 it would be 15, so basically a 50% increase in HIT rate. Not bad but it also really doesn't address the other huge problems that Lootas have. AND Considering they are 14pts a model they are literally paying 8pts for those Deff Gunz. CSM havocs (arguably just as bad as Lootas) pay 10pts for a Autocannon which is a guaranteed 2 shots a turn, and they have BS4 instead of BS2 as well as being on a more survivable platform.

Eldar are probably the worst offender in regards to this line. Windriders are 17pts and a Scatbiker is 27pts. So for 10pts your gaining a BS4 S6AP6 Range 36 gun that can be spammed on a model with T4 3+ armor and a 4+ Jink save. ohh and did I mention they are JET BIKES! so good luck catching them.

if GW would stop being stupid about upgrades they would address these problems.

I think I see where your going with this. It is more or less the same reason I field them in units of 5. I keep their costs low and minimize my losses when they either run away or are killed.
I've mentioned the teef economy before. I like the deff gun the way it is, maybe it should be a 5 point weapon but your paying for more range and more strength than a big shoota, even though it's a Heavy weapon. Maybe it should be 1+D3. who knows. I'd prefer the Ork army to just get piped up to BS3 across the board. Orks don't have as many good AP weapons, beyond rockits, that are "spammed out". Like tank bustas where every ones got one.
I think it would be totally fair in this edition, given how shooting is so strong right now. If the number of shots or their BS doesn't go up, I'd be happy with them moving to an Elite slot. I'd still use them the same way but it would cost me less grot tax to field my KMK's. ( I have 10 of them now!!! Should I by 5 more...?)
The thing that I am still thinking about is Unboud lists. By my way of applying it I build my bound army then just add what ever with out the extra tax. I know it's some what frowned upon but it's still there. I think starting with a bound army makes this sort of thing more digestible for other players.

Lootas perform ok as they are. However, in no way they're 'lootas'. Just 'Deffgunnaz'. And it makes me sad.

The way i'd improve them is give them free reign on taking whatever stuff they want all from different codexes as they're supposed to be looting shiny and loud guns.

Bolters, stormbolters, assault cannons, missile launchers, plazma cannons, scatlasers, shuricannons, lazcannons, sniper rifles, heavy stabbers, meltas and so on. That's what they should be able te pick from. And autocannons if you want them to be fielded as is.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Controlling an enemy vehicle/MC would be really, really cool. And probably also really, really unbalanced.

Honestly, I don't really think it would be *that* unbalanced. You have to actually kill the thing in Melee *with* your Lootas, whom themselves are squishy so you have to soften the bloody thing up first with other supporting elements. Compared to (as an example), the Cyclopea Cabal mind-controlling the unit's shooting from a distance, there's a greater inherent risk in attempting to "Loot" the enemy unit in close combat.

You did not specify melee combat-or if you did, I just missed it.

And I still feel like it'd be a booper to balance. On the one hand, if they aren't killy enough, they'll never get to use it, making it a useless rule. If they ARE killy enough, then you can nab stuff like Land Raiders, Daemon Princes, Knights... At full Strength, midway through the game.

I really don't like that idea. I'd be happy if they could just pay for looted stuff. Not a fan if the in game looting idea.

adding in a few ammunition dumps to your terrain pool can lead to some fun shooting

 JNAProductions wrote:
You did not specify melee combat-or if you did, I just missed it.

And I still feel like it'd be a booper to balance. On the one hand, if they aren't killy enough, they'll never get to use it, making it a useless rule. If they ARE killy enough, then you can nab stuff like Land Raiders, Daemon Princes, Knights... At full Strength, midway through the game.

I forgot to mention it. It would be silly if they could shoot a Landspeeder across the map then suddenly teleport into it once it wrecks.
But yes, they have to deliver the "killing blow" in melee, which is the key to using them; that and hoping your opponent doesn't block off the assault vectors to your *really* powerful units.
RAW, they wouldn't be able to loot a Super-Heavy in-game because any SHV automatically suffers Catastrophic Damage on losing its last hull point. RAI, that would probably need to be tweaked.
As for the "Looted Daemon Princes", it would probably be a fair point to add a restriction that you cannot loot "Characters" in this manner. (Non-character Vehicle/MC). So you could do something like the Looted Carnifex (and let's face it, people do mod it) but the Looted Flyrant is a no-go.

Either way, Orks definitely could use some "love" in terms of "utility options" and the idea of being able to steal their vehicles has its appeal.

The "Use options from another army's unit entry" option is also another way to go about it, if you so desired.

It makes no sense that they can loot it instantly. They just destroyed a tank. It is not magically working again just because you replaced the driver.

 Ashiraya wrote:
It makes no sense that they can loot it instantly. They just destroyed a tank. It is not magically working again just because you replaced the driver.

They are Orks...

Step 1: put them in elites. They should never have left.

Step 2: give them rhinos, ghost arks, land raiders, wave serpents, chimeras, raiders, tauroxes, basically everyone else's transport as their dedicated transport pool. Have them make it BS2 because orks can't aim. They might be squishy but if they can take their pick of the 40k metal box motor pool then that gives them a lot of versatility. You can put them in a wave serpent for protection, or a land raider so you can fit 15 of them. Maybe prevent them from taking a vehicle from a faction that you allied with for fluff reasons. Yes, you can plasticard up one of those vehicles and use it as an ork vehicle, but there are vehicles that aren't represented well by trukks, battlewagons or looted wagons.

Step 3: let them purchase some gear. Nothing too fancy, just stuff like camo cloaks, armor, and melee weapons.

Step 4: drop their cost by one point and make deffguns heavy D2+1. Maybe give them sluggas so they can shoot at things if they have to move, or shoot+charge.

This is my fix to lootas that should bring them back in line with the fluff while making them more powerful options.

Edit: forgot to cite my inspiration. Props to dr. Zoidbork for inspiring this.

They should be able to purchase heavy armor. It is silly that they can't. At the end of the day, I would just be happy if they could take looted wagons as a dedicated transport again. It would help with how crowded the heavy support section is. For that matter, I think every deff dread you take, you should be able to take a unit of killa kans (without taking up an extra heavy support slot).

I think them having a specific rule to be able to use other races dedicated transports would be neat. The main issue is they compete with Mech Guns.

I think that having meks be able to give upgrades to the unit's weapons (Kustomization!) would solve the immediate problem of lack of customization for lootas and most of the other ork units. As for making them interesting, while I am of the opinion that having a straight forward unit is okay, perhaps vehicles wrecked (not exploded) by lootas become objectives for the ork army.

What if lootas got a bonus for killing certain things thoughout the game? Kill an HQ? gain +1 Ap. Kill a Heavy Support, Gain +1 shot.

All this stuff is great, but you're whistling past a (looted) graveyard if you don't email GW again, and again, and again.

What's their max unit size? Could you field a horde with some Mega Armored Gits to move them while shooting help with LD and tank incoming shots?

Before deployment let the unit roll a D6 to "kustomize" their weapon which modifies the deffgun slightly. Something like -1 to enemy cover saves, pinning, AP3, poison, rending, etc. Maybe let them have a rule that is impractical but fluffy where if they wipe out a unit in CC or get into base contact with a wrecked vehicle that they can roll on the table again and add that property to their gun (repeats are wasted). Gives them a boost in power while making them "unreliable and orky" but without the downside that so much of the random rolls tend to be for the Orks. Maybe having a mek in the unit allows a reroll on the kustomize table.

Also I am fine with lootas being Heavy Support as they act very similar to Devastator Marines, Broadsides, etc which are heavy support. What needs to be moved to the Elite slot are Flash Gitz while Killa Kanz and Deffdreads need to not compete for the same slots.

I kind of think lootas are OK as they are, but maybe could do with costing a couple of points fewer. A suggestion I saw someone make on here a while ago which I liked was to allow Lootas with a mek in the mob to reroll the number of shots. Nice and fluffy and means there's actually a reason to take a mek. Maybe let him keep the deffgun too.

I like the Mek for the rerolling the number of shots idea.

I'd like to see Nobs being able to buy Deff Guns.
Like the Old kustum kombi weapon, I think that's what it was called.
I'd really like the WAAAGH rule expanded to shooting units the way it works for WAAAGH Planes as well.

 warhead01 wrote:

I'd really like the WAAAGH rule expanded to shooting units the way it works for WAAAGH Planes as well.

Now That'd be a hilarious buff. drowning people in slugga fire before charging in. This extra punch is invaluable to choppaboyz. And shootas with assault 3. 2-shot rokkits and 1+d3 shot deffgunz. Man, it'd justify ghazcurion. Well, it'd kinda overbuff tankbustas compared to flash gitz and even lootas.

Oh, wow. I missed all of that when I was thinking aboput it! I was just thinking my shoota boys and the like would get more shots! That would really be even more amazing!!!
Don't know if rockits would/should get it. but heck, why not!

 Grumblewartz wrote:
They should be able to purchase heavy armor. It is silly that they can't. At the end of the day, I would just be happy if they could take looted wagons as a dedicated transport again. It would help with how crowded the heavy support section is. For that matter, I think every deff dread you take, you should be able to take a unit of killa kans (without taking up an extra heavy support slot).

problem with that is that your taking an expensive heavy support slot and then adding more then 25% to its cost just to give it a decent armor save. It doesn't address any of the problems and a number of weapons that currently feth up Lootas have Ignores cover AND Ap4.

What's their max unit size? Could you field a horde with some Mega Armored Gits to move them while shooting help with LD and tank incoming shots?

15 is the max size for a squad of lootas. If you buy a Mega Armored HQ to attach to the unit to "Tank shots" your paying 35pts for a Big Mek, 40pts for Mega Armor and 25pts for Da Lucky stick to give him that important rerollable 2+ armor save.. So to make that mediocre Loota unit (210pts worth of Lootas) survivable to a degree you have to spend 100 more points and take up a HQ slot.

Again this helps them a bit but doesn't address the other huge problems.


The idea that adding a Mek (Who keeps his weapon) is a good one. It makes it actually beneficial to take the stupid thing.

With these suggestions how does this sound

Loota 15ppm (+1pt) Gains Eavy Armor (4+save) and The Mek allows you to reroll number of shots. Shots also change to 1 + D3 shots. Finally, allow these guys to gain kustomized weapons. So give them the ability to purchase TL or +1 BS (Git Findas) that kind of stuff.

Give them the option of heavy armour or a free looted wagon rolled into their basic price!

Of all the units to have eavy armor the loota is the one that needs it the least (other than Meganobz ). Lootas have long range as a defense and that means they can set up in ruins or some ADL to create a 4+ cover dakka nest. For their price they do a good job of putting a lot of autocannon fire down field. Army wide fixes for Ork leadership or just boosting the Ork stat line with even a tiny 6+ FNP would help them out. I do think it would be interesting if Lootas had some more mechanics to them other than "take X models, park in cover, D3 dakkas, repeat until dead/victory,

Tankbustas and Burna Boyz are the specialist Orks need some upgraded armor badly because once their transport pops they rapidly die.
Flash GItz need their 4+ armor back (which grot over at GW stole the gitz armor?)

Yea, they probably don't need the armor as much, but I've always imagined them with armour cobbled together with scraps of plate and so on.

I agree the armour is fairly pointless for lootas. anything that would kill them would ap them in most cases. I'm not taking drop pod guys into account because for myself I use so many bodies Drop pods can't land neat my good stuff.

 Vankraken wrote:
Before deployment let the unit roll a D6 to "kustomize" their weapon which modifies the deffgun slightly. Something like -1 to enemy cover saves, pinning, AP3, poison, rending, etc. Maybe let them have a rule that is impractical but fluffy where if they wipe out a unit in CC or get into base contact with a wrecked vehicle that they can roll on the table again and add that property to their gun (repeats are wasted). Gives them a boost in power while making them "unreliable and orky" but without the downside that so much of the random rolls tend to be for the Orks. Maybe having a mek in the unit allows a reroll on the kustomize table.

Also I am fine with lootas being Heavy Support as they act very similar to Devastator Marines, Broadsides, etc which are heavy support. What needs to be moved to the Elite slot are Flash Gitz while Killa Kanz and Deffdreads need to not compete for the same slots.

AP3 weapons? But then GW's precious precious space marines could get killed without an obscene amount of effort! And by a non-fanboy faction to boot! /s.

In all seriousness, I like them being random, but the deffgun table seems difficult to balance. Maybe 2d6 with 12 being +1S, 11 being rending, 9-10 being AP3, 8-6 being pinning, 5-4 being gets hot and soul blaze and 2-3 being nothing. That isn't a balanced table, I'm just thinking about how to make it more consistent with what effects they get. I like meks helping them out, and wish that they fulfilled a purpose other that being a character for the mob rule table.

Does anyone else feel like you can't discuss Lootas without discussing looted wagons? I wish that you could just get them rhinos or chimeras or other transports from different armies, but if the looted wagon remains it should at least be able to pick up weapons from other codexes. Swiped a devilish and put wheels on it because the hover-gubbins broke, then used that as your looted wagon? You should be able to put a burst cannon on it. Looted a Chimera? Why do you have to pull the multilaser off and give it to a loota as a deffgun? Why can't the mek leave it on the tank? They should also be dedicated transports for Lootas at least.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I think them having a specific rule to be able to use other races dedicated transports would be neat.

I really like that idea!

I think they should be able to chose any weapons in the enemy force on an infantry model and the entire squad is armed with that weapon - using their own BS and WS. If they don't have any infantry models they assume their current profile.

as a balancing factor all these weapons have the gets hot rule to represent their unfamiliarity with the weapon.

Not sure about their cost with these rules - maybe a few points less? Cool factor is they could become very potent assault units!

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think they should be able to chose any weapons in the enemy force on an infantry model and the entire squad is armed with that weapon - using their own BS and WS. If they don't have any infantry models they assume their current profile.

as a balancing factor all these weapons have the gets hot rule to represent their unfamiliarity with the weapon.

Not sure about their cost with these rules - maybe a few points less? Cool factor is they could become very potent assault units!

Maybe anything looted that is shooty with >S6 or <AP4 has gets hot.>

Normal Ork weapons remain the same.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think they should be able to chose any weapons in the enemy force on an infantry model and the entire squad is armed with that weapon - using their own BS and WS. If they don't have any infantry models they assume their current profile.

as a balancing factor all these weapons have the gets hot rule to represent their unfamiliarity with the weapon.

Not sure about their cost with these rules - maybe a few points less? Cool factor is they could become very potent assault units!

I like this, as it allows for stuff like orks with Grav or thunderhammers or tachyon arrows or other such odd weapons. It's an interesting balancing factor. "you gave your wraithguard D-scythes? Cool! Let me remagnetize my 30-odd lootas!"

Bring back 3rd ed Lootas. Problem solved.

I'd rather have second ed Lootas. the ones with kustom kombi weapons. The never had to roll to hit.

One other possible alternative is to give them variants of the deffgun that represent the different weapons they loot but are still under the catch-all umbrella term of deffgun, so they start with a deffgun but can upgrade it to:

Dakka-Deffgun: 36" S6 AP5 Heavy D6. Costs about 10 points. Gives us some mid-range dakka options without overshadowing the original deffgun which is cheaper.

Beamy-Deffgun: 48" S9 AP -D3 (So a 1-2 roll would mean its AP1, 3-4 would be AP2, etc), Heavy 1. Costs about 5 points. Gives us a variable long ranged low AP weapon that Orks have been asking for years now. Single shot means you need a reasonable number to be effective but is much more reliable compared to the low AP weapons of Mek Gunz since we always get S9.

Blasta Deffgun: 36" S7 AP2, Heavy 1, Blast, Get's Hot! Costs about 15 points. They won't compete as strongly against KMK mek gunz batteries since they are far more vulnerable against shooting while almost costing as much as a KMK while losing out on the S8.

Then give them access to gitfindas and Mekboyz upgrades being free/having better options and buffs like the aforementioned ability to re-roll the random amount of shots they roll (or AP as well in my examples) and I think they're set.

 koooaei wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:

I'd really like the WAAAGH rule expanded to shooting units the way it works for WAAAGH Planes as well.

Now That'd be a hilarious buff. drowning people in slugga fire before charging in. This extra punch is invaluable to choppaboyz. And shootas with assault 3. 2-shot rokkits and 1+d3 shot deffgunz. Man, it'd justify ghazcurion. Well, it'd kinda overbuff tankbustas compared to flash gitz and even lootas.

An extra round of shooting on tankbustas and deff koptas would be broken. LET'S DO IT!

You guys need to be careful as a LOT of these suggestions ultimately make Flash Gitz even more useless than they are.

Flash gits are as broken as pyrovores-- not as completely useless as they used to be, but they still need fairly major reworking before they're considered usable. But that's another thread.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You guys need to be careful as a LOT of these suggestions ultimately make Flash Gitz even more useless than they are.

Well Flash Gitz ideally would also be reworked as a mobile, robust dakka unit vs the more static lootas. Kinda like the orky version of sternguard versus the lootas having the devastator role. Flash Gitz would be moved to Elites, and have upgrade options similar to how they were before, with 'eavy armour built in.

The snazzgun would be the same base stats wise but have the options of:

Shootier: Gives their guns shred. 3 points per model.

More Dakka: Guns become twin-linked. 3 points per model.

Blasta: AP becomes D3 rather than D6 but it also gains the Gets Hot! rule. 5 points per model.

You can take all three but then the unit becomes very expensive but at the same time hard hitting against infantry. The Kaptin of the unit should be able to take some kind of melee weapon, like a kustom choppa that's effectively a power sword, just because the model looks awesome with it.

SemperMortis wrote:

Atm my biggest problems with Lootas are:
1: Heavy Support choices in an incredibly crowded heavy support slot (They used to be elites)
2: Glass Peashooters. Not even glass cannons, they tend to die as soon as they are targeted. Any weapon with Ignores Cover eats them alive.
3: HIGHLY unpredictable. They either put out 45 shots (15hits) a turn or they put out 15 shots (5 hits)
and finally
4: They are boring, there are no upgrades for them, they can't do anything besides shoot and die.

Lol those aren't even close to my issue with them.

-Low LD in combination with the guarantee that they will take dmg

So they will run if they get shot at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One way to "fix" them is to buy a bunker for them either in the form of an open topped transport or a fortification. But this will make them too expensive for my taste.

The other method is to place them in a fearless aura. This I like a lot.

Ya, I won't invest those kinds of point in them.
Little 5 strong packs work very well, mostly due to having now large expectations from them. That takes a lot of the stress out.
If gives me a lot of flexibility. You can worry about several small squads with random shooting or my infiltrating Green tides. I will use two of them in 2000 points. So, it's what ever. haha.

More on topic of the Lootas, I can't see GW making two many changes to them unless they release a replacement model and rename the Loota model they have now. Referring the the alternative Loota rules mentioned in this thread (taking other equipment and weapons)
I'm sure if they're changed at all it will be in the smallest and most "streamlined" way possible.
I think rerolling the number of shots, becoming 1+D3 and even moving to the elite slots are probably the most reasonable. But I could see the Deff Dreads and Flash gits moving to those slots instead. Mostly because, I think, Lootas are more popular and moving other units may improve the popularity (and sales?)
of the other units. But that to me still keeps the focus on FOC slots remaining important in 40K. I'd be for a more second edition format my self, Hero's, squads and support. Effectively making a lot of the codex more like troop options. Which might be a really good way to represent the diversity (of units) the Orks are. who knows and doubtful. That's probably a whole other topic.

Buying cover for Lootas tends to be useless. If you have invested in 10 or more Lootas you can be guaranteed that your opponent will look at them and go "Well that is an easy way to kill 140-210pts in a shooting phase". He will then drop any Ignores Cover weapons he has on them. Tau and SM excel at this. I have had entire Loota squads wiped out by Tau/SMs in a single shooting phase, even when they are hiding in 4+ cover because of the plethora of ignores cover those armies have access to.

As far as buying vehicles for them, I tried a few games with Lootas inside BWs to give them a bit more support. All my enemy did was DS his Melta/Flamer weapons nearby and poof there goes a MASSIVE investment and 2 heavy support choices.

Vehicles tend to be a bad idea for orks in general because they are all Open topped and against AP1 weapons they are +3 on the damage chart (50/50 to explode) against Eldar its worse. Regardless, when they explode you lose on average 50% of your unit, you then probably fail either the pinning test or the leadership test, roll a 2+ on average and kill another D6 boys.

As far as range being the protection for Lootas...well a lot of weapons have Range 48 or higher. If Lootas wanted to use Range as a defense (Which doesn't sit with the fluff at all mind you) they would need Range 60 or 72. Otherwise most heavy weapons can reach them.

And for weapons, please god don't give my orks anymore gets hot. Our faction has the absolute MOST Gets hot weapons in the game and the 2nd most random tables (behind CSM) we dont need anymore BAD in our codex design.

Fix for Flash Gitz: Give them grav.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Fix for Flash Gitz: Give them grav.

No, please god no more grav. Get rid of grav. Get rid of stupid GMC and MC that should be classified as Vehicles or Super Heavies. Get rid of the ability to spam D weapons in regular games. This game has to stop using steroids and get back to lifting weights the right way

SemperMortis wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Fix for Flash Gitz: Give them grav.

No, please god no more grav. Get rid of grav. Get rid of stupid GMC and MC that should be classified as Vehicles or Super Heavies. Get rid of the ability to spam D weapons in regular games. This game has to stop using steroids and get back to lifting weights the right way

In theory, you could give everything steroids instead, but that would require a complete re-release of everything, including every codex (at the same time, otherwise the ones that don't get updated become unusable until they get fixed) and all of FW's stuff too to bring it all back in line with the game. It would also require the strength to be distributed fairly, and we all know that one faction will hog it all for themselves. Look at 7e for example. The game's potential power level is higher than last edition IIRC, but the average power level between each unit in all the books pooled together isn't significantly changed. So the solution of reining everything in is better. Also, GW does need to be more consistent about what makes a walker/vehicle and what makes a MC. Because as far as I can tell things are classified as MCs if they're tyranids, DE, or if GW wants to sell a lot of them.

Just had a thought, like CSM winning a challenge to get chaos favors, if they kill a unit, "roll on the following chart for what they find (Grots brought them da loot)".
I could see on a six a single use crack missile etc...

 JimOnMars wrote:
Fix for Flash Gitz: Give them grav.

Flash Gitz are so close to being good and them having 4+ armor back in their base stats will put them where they need to be (make it base for all "Nobz"). It makes them much more durable in close combat, survives vehicle explosions far better, general boost in survivability to a lot of shooting, etc that snowball into making Gitz that much more effective on the table.

 koooaei wrote:
Lootas perform ok as they are. However, in no way they're 'lootas'. Just 'Deffgunnaz'. And it makes me sad.

The way i'd improve them is give them free reign on taking whatever stuff they want all from different codexes as they're supposed to be looting shiny and loud guns.

Bolters, stormbolters, assault cannons, missile launchers, plazma cannons, scatlasers, shuricannons, lazcannons, sniper rifles, heavy stabbers, meltas and so on. That's what they should be able te pick from. And autocannons if you want them to be fielded as is.

Agreed, they are not a bad unit as of now, but they are incredibly boring. Give them choice to take a selection of gunz from other armies but they all become Assault Weapon with the gets hot rule. As some mentionned, having a selection of enemy vehicle as dedicated transport would not only be awesome but would be a great incentives for conversions.

Please no more Gets Hot! weapons on my flimsy units there's a reason no one takes KMBs on our walkers or infantry - a 6+ save Ork with BS2 kills himself half as often as he hits his target. Lootas don't need much to improve, they are our autocannon unit and they're fairly efficient at that it's their leadership and survivability that's the problem not their damage output.

 warhead01 wrote:
I'd prefer the Ork army to just get piped up to BS3 across the board.

I'd rather have them at BS4 with an Initiative increase. Maybe reduce their attack to 1 and raise their point cost a little bit so they don't become too overpowered. This way, they'll be practically MEQ, be easier to play and would have 0 distinctive edge.

Come on, BS 2 on Orks is not only a defining trait of the army but also needed for them to retain their character (an horde army with powerful c.c. units)

BS2 with a boat load of shots is the Orky way... The problem is GW lately has been handing out volume of fire shooting to everyone except the Orks (where is our heavy 20 weapons?).

xlDuke wrote:
Please no more Gets Hot! weapons on my flimsy units there's a reason no one takes KMBs on our walkers or infantry - a 6+ save Ork with BS2 kills himself half as often as he hits his target. Lootas don't need much to improve, they are our autocannon unit and they're fairly efficient at that it's their leadership and survivability that's the problem not their damage output.

Thinking about it, Get's hot wouldn't work since some of these gunz fire more than 1 shot a turn, so the amount of 1 rolled would be astronomical. Maybe add them a special rule (called something along the line of Full Dakka) where they double the number of shots fired but they have Gets Hot! Of course, they'd also need a 4+ armour save for it to be viable.

Agreed, the BS2 is part of the identity we have (for better or worse) but that's not to say some equipment like Gitfindas dont mesh well. The idea that our poor accuracy and leadership is balanced out by volume of fire, horde-ability and CC prowess didn't really translate well into this new codex. We dont actually do hordes that well because Boyz are worse now than ever (in comparison to our other units, the new and recently buffed units for other factions etc) and more unreliable than we expect (Mob Rule). We have volume of fire in a few places that's effective (Lootas, Warbikers, Lobbas) but the rest of it just isn't numerous enough for the cost (shootas) or isn't of a good enough quality to matter much (Supa-shootas). Our CC ability is frankly lacking so much that all we do very well now is beat up small units of MEQ very efficiently (Boyz, Meganobz), something that it seems isn't being put on the table very much these days unless it's an alpha strike drop pod list or a MSU army. We certainly can't compete with the real CC factions like Space Wolves or KDK on their terms and we can't build any deathstar worth talking about (not a problem for me personally). We do everything to a decent standard with a bit of a skew on close combat and I like that, I just want a bit more flavour and a bit more competency from our specialist units.

 Vankraken wrote:
BS2 with a boat load of shots is the Orky way... The problem is GW lately has been handing out volume of fire shooting to everyone except the Orks (where is our heavy 20 weapons?).

Agreed, I've been thinking about it lately and I feel most orks weapon should get pinning (maybe add a min number of model per unit requirement for Shoota boyz to get it). It would not only give the orks a sorely needed boost, but would also fit as it would represents the loud, massive incoming dakka not hitting the target yet straying nearby.

I'd rather have them at BS4 with an Initiative increase. Maybe reduce their attack to 1 and raise their point cost a little bit so they don't become too overpowered. This way, they'll be practically MEQ, be easier to play and would have 0 distinctive edge.

Come on, BS 2 on Orks is not only a defining trait of the army but also needed for them to retain their character (an horde army with powerful c.c. units)

That's not even anywhere near what I was saying.
BS2 is only a defining trait as of 3ed edition.
Sure 5 editions and no sign that it's going away. I get it.

One question, where are these powerful CC units ? which units are you talking about? Beyond the Green tide Orks seem to have a powerful CC unit any more, unless your talking about MANZ, or Bully Boys which are still MANZ.

 warhead01 wrote:
One question, where are these powerful CC units ? which units are you talking about? Beyond the Green tide Orks seem to have a powerful CC unit any more, unless your talking about MANZ, or Bully Boys which are still MANZ.

That's the problem with the incredibly uninspired 7th edition Ork codex. We don't have durable melee units that can survive long enough to swing those PKs (unless your a MANz against no AP2 melee), we don't have invuln saves to survive against AP2, low strength for our bread and butter infantry against an increasingly durable roster of threats (lots of T5 and above out there now). Hitting hard in melee falls to PKs or Walker melee while Big Choppas would hit hard but it can't cut through armor. Pile on top of that fragile transports, weak saves, and EXTREMELY overpriced bikes for Nobz (cost more per model than giving a bike to a Space Marine Captain) and you have an army that struggles to survive getting into melee and can't throw down against actual melee units.

 koooaei wrote:
Lootas perform ok as they are. However, in no way they're 'lootas'. Just 'Deffgunnaz'. And it makes me sad.

The way i'd improve them is give them free reign on taking whatever stuff they want all from different codexes as they're supposed to be looting shiny and loud guns.

Bolters, stormbolters, assault cannons, missile launchers, plazma cannons, scatlasers, shuricannons, lazcannons, sniper rifles, heavy stabbers, meltas and so on. That's what they should be able te pick from. And autocannons if you want them to be fielded as is.

Not an ork player myself, but love their style and my best mate plays as them.....

Anyway, would you be against giving them a massive list of weapons to choose from, but severely restricting the amount of said weapons. 1 of each type of heavy weapon and two of each type of special? etc etc. Sure you'd get an extremely shooty unit, but with BS2 and the massive potential point sink, I'd think it would be fairly balanced. The only reason I would want to see them with a variety of heavy weapons, instead of mobs full of single types of weapons is simply... it doesn't seem orky. Having a squad all having the same heavy weapon seems something more like something hummies would do.

 Talizvar wrote:
Just had a thought, like CSM winning a challenge to get chaos favors, if they kill a unit, "roll on the following chart for what they find (Grots brought them da loot)".
I could see on a six a single use crack missile etc...

So, if I destroy an entire unit with my BS2 S7 AP4 lootas, And I then roll a 6 I can get a single BS2 Crack missile? WOW! Sorry for the sarcasm but seriously dude come on.

Mr. CyberPunk wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:
I'd prefer the Ork army to just get piped up to BS3 across the board.

I'd rather have them at BS4 with an Initiative increase. Maybe reduce their attack to 1 and raise their point cost a little bit so they don't become too overpowered. This way, they'll be practically MEQ, be easier to play and would have 0 distinctive edge.

Come on, BS 2 on Orks is not only a defining trait of the army but also needed for them to retain their character (an horde army with powerful c.c. units)

What powerful CC units are you referring to? Our best CC unit is Boyz who are S3 I2. Our nobz are S4 T4, if you give them PKs they are S8(9) T4 but at Initiative 1. If you make them into MegaNobz they are cheaper, have better armor, but they can't run, can't sweeping advance and again are T4 I1.

Orks are not a CC army. We are supposed to be a horde CC army that loves hilarious weapons and shooting a lot. Instead we are the NPC race so that SM and Space Elf players feel like they did something.

Nobody should ever be copying the CSM dex for ideas. It's awful, the boon table hardly ever comes up.

{quote] What powerful CC units are you referring to? Our best CC unit is Boyz who are S3 I2. Our nobz are S4 T4, if you give them PKs they are S8(9) T4 but at Initiative 1. If you make them into MegaNobz they are cheaper, have better armor, but they can't run, can't sweeping advance and again are T4 I1.

Orks are not a CC army. We are supposed to be a horde CC army that loves hilarious weapons and shooting a lot. Instead we are the NPC race so that SM and Space Elf players feel like they did something.

I'm don't feel that the dakka lootas can unleash is a problem. I could be wrong and missed a unit from some other codex but lootas are the most point efficient means of puthing str7 ranged firepower on the table. Every single model has an auto cannon on its shoulders. Not two or three models working as a team to use the heavy auto cannon. Every one of them. I do fin them squishy as is the case with all base orks. Perhaps a lucky paint upgrade that gives them an invuln save against ranged only because if lootas are in melee with autocannons strapped to their shoulders then sumfing went terribly wrong.

 Vankraken wrote:
BS2 with a boat load of shots is the Orky way... The problem is GW lately has been handing out volume of fire shooting to everyone except the Orks (where is our heavy 20 weapons?).

Agreed. And why would pointy ears shoot twice as many bullets as an Ork? That's just bananas.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
I'm don't feel that the dakka lootas can unleash is a problem. I could be wrong and missed a unit from some other codex but lootas are the most point efficient means of puthing str7 ranged firepower on the table. Every single model has an auto cannon on its shoulders. Not two or three models working as a team to use the heavy auto cannon. Every one of them. I do fin them squishy as is the case with all base orks. Perhaps a lucky paint upgrade that gives them an invuln save against ranged only because if lootas are in melee with autocannons strapped to their shoulders then sumfing went terribly wrong.

There are two ways to field them. small 5 man squads that are either ignored or shot at just out of spite with a few left over bolters/whatever. These guys on average put out 10 S7Ap4 shots a turn, that equates to 3 hits. So that squad 70 points squad averages 3 hits, so rather cheap.

For 115pts (45 more) CSM can take a squad of havocs who can take 4 autocannons which will average 3 hits a round. So literally THE SAME DAKKA. Yes they are 45pts more expensive, but that 45pts buys you a number of benefits, such as LD9 and BS4 and 3+ Armor.
that
So more expensive, but those guys will not be randomly destroyed by a few bolter rounds or whatever. And of course CSM is a bottom tier codex with orks.

The other way to take Lootas is in massive 10-15 boy units. If you fully upgrade lootas to 15 models they will average 30 shots a turn and 10 hits. 10 S7 Hits is nothing to scoff at, but that unit is now a BIG target for the enemy because that unit is 210pts and has almost zero durability. T4 with a 6+ save means these guys NEED to be in cover, unfortunately if you put them in cover a number of models wont be able to shoot at a target because of LOS restrictions. And of course if your enemy is Tau? then your boned anyway.

They need more durability and/or Dakka.

For 115pts (45 more) CSM can take a squad of havocs who can take 4 autocannons which will average 3 hits a round

Actually havocs with 4 autocannons have more dakka than 5 lootas, beacuse of BS 4. 8 shots at BS 4 is 5,(333) hits, not only 3.

 warhead01 wrote:

I'd rather have them at BS4 with an Initiative increase. Maybe reduce their attack to 1 and raise their point cost a little bit so they don't become too overpowered. This way, they'll be practically MEQ, be easier to play and would have 0 distinctive edge.

Come on, BS 2 on Orks is not only a defining trait of the army but also needed for them to retain their character (an horde army with powerful c.c. units)

That's not even anywhere near what I was saying.
BS2 is only a defining trait as of 3ed edition.
Sure 5 editions and no sign that it's going away. I get it.

One question, where are these powerful CC units ? which units are you talking about? Beyond the Green tide Orks seem to have a powerful CC unit any more, unless your talking about MANZ, or Bully Boys which are still MANZ.

Oh don't get me wrong, Orks sucks now and their only good unit that I can think of are mek gunz (which are as unorky as a unit can be). Wulfen are so much more powerful than nobz, it's not even funny. Worst of all, our codex is bland and boring. No special c.c. weapon, Waagh is effing boring and doesn't fit the army imo (speed, horde and c.c. is the tyranid game), save for the nobz, a unit so awful it's barely playable, our units barely have any customization opitions, etc.

Oh don't get me wrong, Orks sucks now and their only good unit that I can think of are mek gunz (which are as unorky as a unit can be). Wulfen are so much more powerful than nobz, it's not even funny. Worst of all, our codex is bland and boring. No special c.c. weapon, Waagh is effing boring and doesn't fit the army imo (speed, horde and c.c. is the tyranid game), save for the nobz, a unit so awful it's barely playable, our units barely have any customization opitions, etc.

I hadn't really thought about the WAAAGH thing. Last codex I forgot it was even a thing for ..two years or more. And I was playing very regularly. Maybe Orks should gain several different abilities from WAAAGH. Maybe there's a list of maybe 3 to 5 things. More Dakka, the fleet rule we have now and a few other, maybe a LD reroll maybe FNP. Then set conditions, must be 10 or more models for this or that, must be in close combat for this or that. I'd even put pile on Da pain on the list or something. Maybe just stick it on Nobs, maybe it's a Nobz thing.(Maybe Nobs and bosses...)
I'd maybe think about going even further something like Orks auto wound on a 6 to hit with choppas. But not thinking about changing the choppa AP. ( does it have one?) It might seem a bit strong but I don't think it's that much stronger than Tau Marker lights and the abilities in their new/current codex and supplement.

I think that might feel like it's getting into AoS territory.
Speaking of. There's a blog I found linked in one of the AoS threads and that blogger is making AoS/40K warscrolls. The lootas are 6 shots with a single mek. but they can loot a vehicle during a game. with a roll over the number of wound it had and discarding the loota in the attempt. Then it's looted.
I like the idea, just not on a units of deff guns.Although, that warscroll does make Lootas hit on 6's, so not reason not to move them, no bonus for not moving them.

 warhead01 wrote:

Oh don't get me wrong, Orks sucks now and their only good unit that I can think of are mek gunz (which are as unorky as a unit can be). Wulfen are so much more powerful than nobz, it's not even funny. Worst of all, our codex is bland and boring. No special c.c. weapon, Waagh is effing boring and doesn't fit the army imo (speed, horde and c.c. is the tyranid game), save for the nobz, a unit so awful it's barely playable, our units barely have any customization opitions, etc.

I hadn't really thought about the WAAAGH thing. Last codex I forgot it was even a thing for ..two years or more. And I was playing very regularly. Maybe Orks should gain several different abilities from WAAAGH. Maybe there's a list of maybe 3 to 5 things. More Dakka, the fleet rule we have now and a few other, maybe a LD reroll maybe FNP. Then set conditions, must be 10 or more models for this or that, must be in close combat for this or that. I'd even put pile on Da pain on the list or something. Maybe just stick it on Nobs, maybe it's a Nobz thing.(Maybe Nobs and bosses...)
I'd maybe think about going even further something like Orks auto wound on a 6 to hit with choppas. But not thinking about changing the choppa AP. ( does it have one?) It might seem a bit strong but I don't think it's that much stronger than Tau Marker lights and the abilities in their new/current codex and supplement.

I think that might feel like it's getting into AoS territory.
Speaking of. There's a blog I found linked in one of the AoS threads and that blogger is making AoS/40K warscrolls. The lootas are 6 shots with a single mek. but they can loot a vehicle during a game. with a roll over the number of wound it had and discarding the loota in the attempt. Then it's looted.
I like the idea, just not on a units of deff guns.Although, that warscroll does make Lootas hit on 6's, so not reason not to move them, no bonus for not moving them.

Can you link this blog? Highly interested in seeing what he has done!

Can you link this blog? Highly interested in seeing what he has done!

Sure thing.

http://hivefleetcharybdis.blogspot.com/

I'm still only just starting to read through it. Haven't even played my first game of AoS yet but with all the AoS+40K = 8th. Kinda interesting that some one out there is doing it already. I'm starting to think about how would I do that for a 40K+ Silver tower board game. Would be cool if some one made a character builder,

What would happen if Shootas got one more shot, Lootas got two more shots, an everything else simply got a small point discount? More shots equals more fun, right?

Yep. For 7 points, shootas should have 2 more shots...i,e., 1.333 hits.

Honestly I'd prefer more grot units with good ranged weapons. The problem with giving orks more shots and cheaper units to make up for their BS2 is that you have to roll an impractical amount of dice for the total output to be competitive. Yes, I know that it's a side effect of playing a horde army but there's a certain point where it becomes ridiculous. Can we get grots with snipers or usable kans?

I don't think anyone would be adverse to better Kanz but otherwise you're asking for things that don't make sense in an Ork army. Snipers at all? Really?

Ork "Snipers" are in the fluff but really their version of a sniper rifle would have Heavy 3 and basically would be a Big Shoota with a highly impractical scope mounted somewhere on the thing.

I'd love for my Grots to use their autto-guns again.

Grot snipers are in the fluff regularly, as are regular Ork sniperz.

Shoota boyz need there own fix to become useful, BS2 with 2 shots at 18in sounds good but its not worth increasing the price of an Ork Boy by 16%. 10 boyz will first off almost never be in range together since 18in is ridiculously short range for such a shoddy weapon but even if by some miracle they are, thats 20 shots at BS2 S4 which against a T4 unit equals out to 3 or so wounds.

Lootas on the other hand, if you increased their shot output by 2. So instead of being D3 you just made them a flat 4 shots, would be more usable but not fixing their underlying problem of ZERO Staying power. 10 Lootas at BS2 with 40shots = 13 hits now instead of the standard 6ish. So good Damage output but again as soon as an enemy shot at you they would die in droves and run off the table. Not usable in our current edition of super power ridiculous units that can auto delete units every turn.

I had a though months ago. what if you could buy gorts for mobs of boys. just to stand there and die first.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
Honestly I'd prefer more grot units with good ranged weapons. The problem with giving orks more shots and cheaper units to make up for their BS2 is that you have to roll an impractical amount of dice for the total output to be competitive. Yes, I know that it's a side effect of playing a horde army but there's a certain point where it becomes ridiculous.

I have 72 dice, and sometimes that's not enough. It is a problem counting them all. I have thought of ways to streamline the stacking and throwing of them while still being random. I wouldn't have a problem throwing 200 dice (or more) at a pop. It would be kinda fun actually.
Right now, if you took a full greentide and cast the weirdboy's warpath on it you could actually get 1,500 attacks in combat at st 4 and ws4. Not too shabby...although it might be mathematically impossible for all 300 boyz to attack a single target.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
Honestly I'd prefer more grot units with good ranged weapons. The problem with giving orks more shots and cheaper units to make up for their BS2 is that you have to roll an impractical amount of dice for the total output to be competitive. Yes, I know that it's a side effect of playing a horde army but there's a certain point where it becomes ridiculous.

I have 72 dice, and sometimes that's not enough. It is a problem counting them all. I have thought of ways to streamline the stacking and throwing of them while still being random. I wouldn't have a problem throwing 200 dice (or more) at a pop. It would be kinda fun actually.
Right now, if you took a full greentide and cast the weirdboy's warpath on it you could actually get 1,500 attacks in combat at st 4 and ws4. Not too shabby...although it might be mathematically impossible for all 300 boyz to attack a single target.

The most i managed to get off in a real game was around 150. Which inflicted something like 1 wound. Fething psychic deathstars.

A lot of the complaints I see from people about Orks on here seem to indicate they want Orks to be something they aren't, and never have been. Don't like randomisation? Don't play Orks. It's been a feature of the army since 1st Ed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Personally, I'd be happy for minor tweaks to a few things, and point reductions for the rest.

 Nazrak wrote:
A lot of the complaints I see from people about Orks on here seem to indicate they want Orks to be something they aren't, and never have been. Don't like randomisation? Don't play Orks. It's been a feature of the army since 1st Ed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Personally, I'd be happy for minor tweaks to a few things, and point reductions for the rest.

Randomization is fine when its balanced. Unfortunately almost NOTHING in the ork codex is balanced. our Blitzabomber drops a bomb, on a double 1 it dies in a firey crash costing you points, on a 10-12 it gets to shoot its target with its guns as well as drop the bomb.....

Mob Rule, on a 1 you run away, on a 2-6 you kill your own guys.

Psychic shenanigans WE TEST ON A FETHING 7!

We have access to a lot of Plasma like weapons with +1strength, they kill their bearer on a roll of 1 but only HIT on a 5 or 6. So you have a 50% chance to kill yourself compared to hitting your target. Ohh and did I mention the cost? 5pts for a ranged 24 and 10pts for a plasma pistol? Thereby taking away the benefit of orks in close combat because that stupid pistol is to expensive and doesn't function most of the game.

Bubble Chucka, yay random AP and S nice! I GOT AP1!!!!! but that means IM S1 wounding on 6s.

Zzap Gunz, just as likely to kill your crew as the enemy

Smasha Gun, S4+D6 you have to choose your target before rolling strength, which means that if you try to hit a AV13 vehicle with that 1 Shot AP1 weapon you better roll a 3+ otherwise you wont even get to glance the thing on a roll of 6.


So to summarize, Randomness is fine, so long as the benefits AT LEAST equal the downsides. At the moment that doesn't happen and that is why we hate Ork Randomness.

Things definitely need to be cheaper on the Ork side. Once I finalized CSM fixes I'll be working on Orks.

This. QFT:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
A lot of the complaints I see from people about Orks on here seem to indicate they want Orks to be something they aren't, and never have been. Don't like randomisation? Don't play Orks. It's been a feature of the army since 1st Ed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Personally, I'd be happy for minor tweaks to a few things, and point reductions for the rest.

Randomization is fine when its balanced. Unfortunately almost NOTHING in the ork codex is balanced. our Blitzabomber drops a bomb, on a double 1 it dies in a firey crash costing you points, on a 10-12 it gets to shoot its target with its guns as well as drop the bomb.....

Mob Rule, on a 1 you run away, on a 2-6 you kill your own guys.

Psychic shenanigans WE TEST ON A FETHING 7!

We have access to a lot of Plasma like weapons with +1strength, they kill their bearer on a roll of 1 but only HIT on a 5 or 6. So you have a 50% chance to kill yourself compared to hitting your target. Ohh and did I mention the cost? 5pts for a ranged 24 and 10pts for a plasma pistol? Thereby taking away the benefit of orks in close combat because that stupid pistol is to expensive and doesn't function most of the game.

Bubble Chucka, yay random AP and S nice! I GOT AP1!!!!! but that means IM S1 wounding on 6s.

Zzap Gunz, just as likely to kill your crew as the enemy

Smasha Gun, S4+D6 you have to choose your target before rolling strength, which means that if you try to hit a AV13 vehicle with that 1 Shot AP1 weapon you better roll a 3+ otherwise you wont even get to glance the thing on a roll of 6.


So to summarize, Randomness is fine, so long as the benefits AT LEAST equal the downsides. At the moment that doesn't happen and that is why we hate Ork Randomness.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
A lot of the complaints I see from people about Orks on here seem to indicate they want Orks to be something they aren't, and never have been. Don't like randomisation? Don't play Orks. It's been a feature of the army since 1st Ed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Personally, I'd be happy for minor tweaks to a few things, and point reductions for the rest.

Randomization is fine when its balanced. Unfortunately almost NOTHING in the ork codex is balanced. our Blitzabomber drops a bomb, on a double 1 it dies in a firey crash costing you points, on a 10-12 it gets to shoot its target with its guns as well as drop the bomb.....

Mob Rule, on a 1 you run away, on a 2-6 you kill your own guys.

Psychic shenanigans WE TEST ON A FETHING 7!

We have access to a lot of Plasma like weapons with +1strength, they kill their bearer on a roll of 1 but only HIT on a 5 or 6. So you have a 50% chance to kill yourself compared to hitting your target. Ohh and did I mention the cost? 5pts for a ranged 24 and 10pts for a plasma pistol? Thereby taking away the benefit of orks in close combat because that stupid pistol is to expensive and doesn't function most of the game.

Bubble Chucka, yay random AP and S nice! I GOT AP1!!!!! but that means IM S1 wounding on 6s.

Zzap Gunz, just as likely to kill your crew as the enemy

Smasha Gun, S4+D6 you have to choose your target before rolling strength, which means that if you try to hit a AV13 vehicle with that 1 Shot AP1 weapon you better roll a 3+ otherwise you wont even get to glance the thing on a roll of 6.


So to summarize, Randomness is fine, so long as the benefits AT LEAST equal the downsides. At the moment that doesn't happen and that is why we hate Ork Randomness.

Like I said, to me, most of this stuff seems entirely consistent with the character of the army since it first appeared. My only real problem with it is that, given the way stuff can behave, there's a pretty strong argument that we're probably paying too may points for certain stuff (cf your point about the Kustom Slugga)

 Nazrak wrote:


Like I said, to me, most of this stuff seems entirely consistent with the character of the army since it first appeared. My only real problem with it is that, given the way stuff can behave, there's a pretty strong argument that we're probably paying too may points for certain stuff (cf your point about the Kustom Slugga)

A blitzbomber costs 135pts, It is armed with bombs (2) a Big Shoota (S5 AP5) and a TL Supa Shoota (S6 AP4) both the guns are assault 3. In the game when it drops bombs it has a 1/11 chance to blow itself up instantly. It has a 1/11 chance of inflicting a S9 AP2 hit on itself and its target, our flyer is AV10 so your automatically losing an HP, possibly crashing and burning. It has a 6/11 chance of working the way it supposed to and it has a 3/11 chance of getting to shoot its weapons at the rear of a vehicle as well as dropping its bombs.

So the bad things are you lose your flyer or you lose a HP with the chance of being destroyed. The good things are you get to shoot the rear armor of a vehicle with BS3 (Strafing run unless thats not a thing anymore) S5 and S6 weapons, only 3 shots each though. Even against AV10 thats not that great of a chance of doing much.

So what would you propose to make this thing worth taking? What would you propose to make the randomness worth the price?

CSM Pay 35pts more for a Helldrake which is AV12/12/10 and has IWND a 5++ and vector strike as well as a S6 AP3 Bale Flamer......

With that in mind the Orks are all horribly over priced to begin with before you even consider the "Randomness" issue.

But back to the Loota question, Randomness for Lootas would be great if their was a benefit to go along with the downsides. 1/3 chance to fire 1 shot, 2 shots or 3 shots. That is decently balanced, until you realize its BS2. 15 Lootas at BS2 have a 1/3rd chance to only get 5 hits, thats just terrible. If the Loota was instead D3+1 or D3+2 it would be a different story, because then you know your going to at least do some damage to your target before your unit is wiped out.

Im sorry my thought process is a bit scattered at the moment, I haven't slept in about 36 hours so bear with me here. But the biggest problem with orks is that GW designed them as a horde army designed to swamp opponents in models to win battles, this worked great until armies got buffed to the point where horde armies are almost untenable. An easy fix would have been to massively reduce the price of models to increase the size of the Ork forces but that didn't happen and even if it had it wouldn't have worked because games would have taken a lot longer. However, since we didn't get our massive price reduction you think that they would have at least had the decency to increase the utility or sustainability of the unit. Again nothing like that happened. Honestly Eavy armor should be the norm for Orks with maybe a 1pt bump in price. If lootas were 15pts a model but had 4+ armor it would go a bit towards fixing them, team that with the D3+1 or D3+2 and boom you now have the unit that the Loota was supposed to be.

 Nazrak wrote:

Honestly Eavy armor should be the norm for Orks with maybe a 1pt bump in price. If lootas were 15pts a model but had 4+ armor it would go a bit towards fixing them, team that with the D3+1 or D3+2 and boom you now have the unit that the Loota was supposed to be.

I agree with that, but only for the non-standard boyz squads. They should still be 6+ with a cheaper option for heavy armor. Hell, it's even in the fluff that specialist orks use armor. Tankbustas strap tank bits to themselves, so they should definitely get a 4+, flash gitz are rich so it makes no sense whatsoever that they can't get a 4+. Burnas could get like a free FNP or something due to their nerves being frayed from all the fire, lootas could get a 4+ because they like strapping random bits of scrap to themselves, and stormboyz should get a 4+ cover save any time they use their jetpacks to simulate all the billowing smoke they make. 6+ armor saves just don't cut it, which is why 90% of my lists are heavily mechanized. Orks need transports.

Didn't Stormboyz have that cover save thing last edition?

I'm sorry my thought process is a bit scattered at the moment, I haven't slept in about 36 hours so bear with me here

Some ones feelin da WAAAAGH!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Didn't Stormboyz have that cover save thing last edition?

I think your remembering the bike orks smoke screen rule

Orks would benefit from a Traitors Hate style release with a new detatchment/formation structure.

Dakka Dakka Boyz
1 Big Mek
3-6 units of Lootas
0-3 units of Mek Gunz
Special Rulez:
Da Good Stuff: Equipped with the best gunz and ammo available to Orks, units in this formation may reroll 1's on to hit rolls as well as the rolls to determine how many shots are fired

Three squads of five lootas and a couple lobbas, hell yes.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:


Like I said, to me, most of this stuff seems entirely consistent with the character of the army since it first appeared. My only real problem with it is that, given the way stuff can behave, there's a pretty strong argument that we're probably paying too may points for certain stuff (cf your point about the Kustom Slugga)

A blitzbomber costs 135pts, It is armed with bombs (2) a Big Shoota (S5 AP5) and a TL Supa Shoota (S6 AP4) both the guns are assault 3. In the game when it drops bombs it has a 1/11 chance to blow itself up instantly. It has a 1/11 chance of inflicting a S9 AP2 hit on itself and its target, our flyer is AV10 so your automatically losing an HP, possibly crashing and burning. It has a 6/11 chance of working the way it supposed to and it has a 3/11 chance of getting to shoot its weapons at the rear of a vehicle as well as dropping its bombs.

So the bad things are you lose your flyer or you lose a HP with the chance of being destroyed. The good things are you get to shoot the rear armor of a vehicle with BS3 (Strafing run unless thats not a thing anymore) S5 and S6 weapons, only 3 shots each though. Even against AV10 thats not that great of a chance of doing much.

So what would you propose to make this thing worth taking? What would you propose to make the randomness worth the price?

CSM Pay 35pts more for a Helldrake which is AV12/12/10 and has IWND a 5++ and vector strike as well as a S6 AP3 Bale Flamer......

With that in mind the Orks are all horribly over priced to begin with before you even consider the "Randomness" issue.

Appreciate you're a bit sleep-deprived but I think your maths is a bit off here. You've only a 1/36 chance of crashing, and a 1/18 chance of a "Clipped 'im" result. So overall, a 1/12 chance of a negative result. Whereas the better-than-normal result is on a 10-12, so a 1/6 chance of this on 2D6. If that's not balancing the potential negative outcomes of "randomness" with potential positives, I don't know what is. As I've said before, I certainly wouldn't be averse to some points values being revised downwards so you'll get no argument from me on that front.

SemperMortis wrote:
But back to the Loota question, Randomness for Lootas would be great if their was a benefit to go along with the downsides. 1/3 chance to fire 1 shot, 2 shots or 3 shots. That is decently balanced, until you realize its BS2. 15 Lootas at BS2 have a 1/3rd chance to only get 5 hits, thats just terrible. If the Loota was instead D3+1 or D3+2 it would be a different story, because then you know your going to at least do some damage to your target before your unit is wiped out.

I don't have a problem with D3 shots for Lootas. A deffgun's statistically equivalent to an autocannon – average no. of shots is 2. Five Lootas is 5 pts fewer than a 3x autocannon Guard heavy weapon team, so you're essentially balancing 1 fewer wound in the unit out with 2 more "autocannons". They've also a higher toughness and a marginally worse save (The latter of which only matters against anything worse than a bolter). Seems reasonable enough to me. Again, the chance of having one fewer shot than an autocannon is exactly statistically balanced by the chance of having one more. Random, but with an equal chance of a better or worse outcome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oof, I forgot about the BS difference between the lootas and guardsmen. Let's see, 3x IG autocannon teams are going to average 3 hits a turn; 5x lootas will average 3.333 hits. But the most the IG can score wth superb rolling is 6 hits. The Orks, on a good day, could dish out up to 15. Unlikely, of course, but still not to be sneezed at. So I'm still far from convinced the green lads are getting the gakky end of the stick here.

SemperMortis wrote:
The good things are you get to shoot the rear armor of a vehicle with BS3 (Strafing run unless thats not a thing anymore) S5 and S6 weapons, only 3 shots each though. Even against AV10 thats not that great of a chance of doing much.

It has no strafing run. The bigshoota is facing back.

 Nazrak wrote:


Appreciate you're a bit sleep-deprived but I think your maths is a bit off here. You've only a 1/36 chance of crashing, and a 1/18 chance of a "Clipped 'im" result. So overall, a 1/12 chance of a negative result. Whereas the better-than-normal result is on a 10-12, so a 1/6 chance of this on 2D6. If that's not balancing the potential negative outcomes of "randomness" with potential positives, I don't know what is. As I've said before, I certainly wouldn't be averse to some points values being revised downwards so you'll get no argument from me on that front.

SemperMortis wrote:
But back to the Loota question, Randomness for Lootas would be great if their was a benefit to go along with the downsides. 1/3 chance to fire 1 shot, 2 shots or 3 shots. That is decently balanced, until you realize its BS2. 15 Lootas at BS2 have a 1/3rd chance to only get 5 hits, thats just terrible. If the Loota was instead D3+1 or D3+2 it would be a different story, because then you know your going to at least do some damage to your target before your unit is wiped out.

I don't have a problem with D3 shots for Lootas. A deffgun's statistically equivalent to an autocannon – average no. of shots is 2. Five Lootas is 5 pts fewer than a 3x autocannon Guard heavy weapon team, so you're essentially balancing 1 fewer wound in the unit out with 2 more "autocannons". They've also a higher toughness and a marginally worse save (The latter of which only matters against anything worse than a bolter). Seems reasonable enough to me. Again, the chance of having one fewer shot than an autocannon is exactly statistically balanced by the chance of having one more. Random, but with an equal chance of a better or worse outcome.

Oof, I forgot about the BS difference between the lootas and guardsmen. Let's see, 3x IG autocannon teams are going to average 3 hits a turn; 5x lootas will average 3.333 hits. But the most the IG can score wth superb rolling is 6 hits. The Orks, on a good day, could dish out up to 15. Unlikely, of course, but still not to be sneezed at. So I'm still far from convinced the green lads are getting the gakky end of the stick here.

Your also forgetting the fact that a IG Heavy weapons team is part of a troops choice. You did mention that it has more wounds and better armor and again since its part of a troops choice the chances are its going to get a good CS because of intervening models.

The best part though is that you are comparing an Ork unit that I say needs a buff because its not that great to an IG heavy weapons team.... LMAO IG, Orks, Nids and CSM (maybe not anymore) share the bottom rung together.

You do have to consider that a squad of Lootas is anywhere from 5 to 15 autocannons. IG Heavy Weapons can't spam that many gunners without a bunch of "tax" and spamability is a huge asset when it comes to shooting. Also to be fair 2 wounds doesn't matter on weapon teams most of the time because being T3 means most long ranged weapons tend to double them out. The armor difference is hardly a big deal because both tend to camp ruins/terrain and both get their armor bypassed by bolters or better.

 Vankraken wrote:
You do have to consider that a squad of Lootas is anywhere from 5 to 15 autocannons. IG Heavy Weapons can't spam that many gunners without a bunch of "tax" and spamability is a huge asset when it comes to shooting. Also to be fair 2 wounds doesn't matter on weapon teams most of the time because being T3 means most long ranged weapons tend to double them out. The armor difference is hardly a big deal because both tend to camp ruins/terrain and both get their armor bypassed by bolters or better.

Well quite. Also, I didn't realise the aim here was to make Orks better than everyone else.

Not sure what being part of a troops choice has to do with getting a cover save from intervening models, either. This solely depends on the models' positioning on the tabletop, not the slot they occupy within the force org chart.

 Nazrak wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
You do have to consider that a squad of Lootas is anywhere from 5 to 15 autocannons. IG Heavy Weapons can't spam that many gunners without a bunch of "tax" and spamability is a huge asset when it comes to shooting. Also to be fair 2 wounds doesn't matter on weapon teams most of the time because being T3 means most long ranged weapons tend to double them out. The armor difference is hardly a big deal because both tend to camp ruins/terrain and both get their armor bypassed by bolters or better.

Well quite. Also, I didn't realise the aim here was to make Orks better than everyone else.

Not sure what being part of a troops choice has to do with getting a cover save from intervening models, either. This solely depends on the models' positioning on the tabletop, not the slot they occupy within the force org chart.

No the "aim" of this is to make Orks, specifically Lootas, competitive, and worth taking. Comparing them to IG/CSM and Nids and saying things like "Well they are just as good as this" or "They are slightly better then this so therefore they are fine" is rather silly.

Nobody thinks "Ohh wow, I hope that guard player doesn't bring Autocannon Heavy Weapon Teams". And right now most competitive armies are going "Ohh wow, I REALLY hope that ork player is dumb enough to bring an expensive Heavy Support option that will die to anything with Ignores cover."

As far as the cover save for weapons teams? I was talking about how most IG opponents I have faced have used their Infantry as bubble wraps around Heavy weapon teams and vehicles.

Make Eldar Jetbikes 4+ armor. Or 3+ from front 5+ from side (I think that was the 3rd ed system?) if they have to keep their windshield save.

4+ with Scatterlasers being 15 would really Balance them in the long run.

4+ armour, same costs, and cap upgrade weapons at one per three, I'd think. And/or take some lessons from Corsair Jetbikes that have more gun options and aren't a speedbump in melee to make them less absurdly good at one thing/ineffective at anything else.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
4+ with Scatterlasers being 15 would really Balance them in the long run.

20. Scatterlaser is a 20 pt weapon at least. It's better than the assault cannon 95% of the time. It's arguably a 25 pt weapon.

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
4+ with Scatterlasers being 15 would really Balance them in the long run.

20. Scatterlaser is a 20 pt weapon at least. It's better than the assault cannon 95% of the time. It's arguably a 25 pt weapon.

Do we really need to have this argument again?

(An assault cannon is massively, massively better against every target if you actually sit down and do the math on it)

It's not massively better. And that's assuming it can fire at all. 24" vs 36" is a bitch. Assault cannons are actually pretty crappy because of all the bad things that happen at 24" Notably, grav cannon range. Especially because they cost an obscene 20 pts and come on crappy platforms. With only 4 shots, the rending is not that significant. Hell, the rending on the avenger gatling cannon can't truly be relied upon.

Martel732 wrote:
It's not massively better. And that's assuming it can fire at all. 24" vs 36" is a bitch. Assault cannons are actually pretty crappy because of all the bad things that happen at 24" Notably, grav cannon range. Especially because they cost an obscene 20 pts and come on crappy platforms. With only 4 shots, the rending is not that significant. Hell, the rending on the avenger gatling cannon can't truly be relied upon.

I'm going to point the two at a hypothetical Dreadknight to make a point about why "..rending is not that significant..." is utterly wrongheaded.

A scatterbike is getting four BS4 shots at S6 with no AP. We're looking at a 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound, and a 2+ armour save, for an average of 0.22 wounds.

A Landspeeder with an assault cannon is getting four BS4 shots at S6 with Rending. We're looking at 3+ to hit, 4-5 to wound normally, 6 to rend, 2+ armour against the normal wounds, and 5++ Inv against the rends. With four shots that's an average of 0.44 wounds.

The sole difference between the two attacks is Rending. The target's got an Invul against the rends. And the Rending weapon is twice as effective.

I know you love to bash the assault cannon and exhort the scatter laser, but the problem is the cheapness/ease of access of the platform, not the weapon. The Scatter Laser would be incredibly mediocre if you couldn't get it on every model in a jump-shoot-jump Troops unit for 27ppm.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's not massively better. And that's assuming it can fire at all. 24" vs 36" is a bitch. Assault cannons are actually pretty crappy because of all the bad things that happen at 24" Notably, grav cannon range. Especially because they cost an obscene 20 pts and come on crappy platforms. With only 4 shots, the rending is not that significant. Hell, the rending on the avenger gatling cannon can't truly be relied upon.

I'm going to point the two at a hypothetical Dreadknight to make a point about why "..rending is not that significant..." is utterly wrongheaded.

A scatterbike is getting four BS4 shots at S6 with no AP. We're looking at a 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound, and a 2+ armour save, for an average of 0.22 wounds.

A Landspeeder with an assault cannon is getting four BS4 shots at S6 with Rending. We're looking at 3+ to hit, 4-5 to wound normally, 6 to rend, 2+ armour against the normal wounds, and 5++ Inv against the rends. With four shots that's an average of 0.44 wounds.

The sole difference between the two attacks is Rending. The target's got an Invul against the rends. And the Rending weapon is twice as effective.

I know you love to bash the assault cannon and exhort the scatter laser, but the problem is the cheapness/ease of access of the platform, not the weapon. The Scatter Laser would be incredibly mediocre if you couldn't get it on every model in a jump-shoot-jump Troops unit for 27ppm.

Nether weapon is effective against a dreadknight. It is a poor comparison. If you are shootign assault cannons at dreadknights - you are probably gonna lose the match.

Well, to be back in topic, Lootas should have a 5+ at minimum and be able to use IoM, Eldar and Dark Eldar, and Tau transports.

Well, to be back in topic, Lootas should have a 5+ at minimum and be able to use IoM, Eldar and Dark Eldar, and Tau transports.

Those transports would actually be bad for them. the open topped skimmers being the most useful for them are still no good at all for them with the faq covering Jink and passengers. They might as well be in a truck for all the good it will do them.
I don't even see the point of a better save for them. anything that reaches that far to wound them would AP most better saves.
Basically Lootas aren't Lootas so much as a misnamed unit.

 warhead01 wrote:

Well, to be back in topic, Lootas should have a 5+ at minimum and be able to use IoM, Eldar and Dark Eldar, and Tau transports.

Those transports would actually be bad for them. the open topped skimmers being the most useful for them are still no good at all for them with the faq covering Jink and passengers. They might as well be in a truck for all the good it will do them.
I don't even see the point of a better save for them. anything that reaches that far to wound them would AP most better saves.
Basically Lootas aren't Lootas so much as a misnamed unit.

Doesn't the new FAQ say that the passengers are firing snap shots? I Wouldn't care to much about that with my BS2.

I think they are mislabeled because the only loot part of them is that they loot other factions weapons which all get turned into Autocannons anyway. The models range from Lascannons, PlasmaCannons, and assault cannons to some other strange thing and back again, yet all are S7 Ap4 D3 shots at 48inches.

I think if they came standard with 4+ armor (no points increase) and could purchase Git findaz for 1-2pts each it would help. Keep in mind that I think the Git finda needs an update BADLY! It should give +1 BS regardless of movement or snapshots. So overwatch at BS2 and snapshots at BS2, but if they stay still during their turn they should be at BS3, That alone would fix a lot of the dakka problems and the survivability problems.

15pts for a Loota with a Git Finda ad 4+ Eavy armor, that would do it I think, anyone think thats a bad idea?

I do wonder why they didn't come with Git Findas. they don't really move very much and it might have made up for the radom number of shots, although I guess having up tp 15 models in the mob was suppose to make up for both the random number of shots and BS2. Everything counts in large amounts.

My beef with the looted transport idea is I don't see the point or much to any good reason for doing it. Rhino transport 10 but only 2 models or so from the fire point. The Dark Eldar skimmer being open topped seems better but if it goes up..they all die in a fire.
They can more or less do the same thing with a trukk and even move and snapfire from it. so the skimmer would seem to be a Less useful option unless I planned to move it and rely on the jink and the snapfire from the lootas but I think it holds less models. Most of the imperial vehicles let too few models shoot unless looting them makes them open topped.
Then it's a question of which one has the best all around AV for the lootas to ride around in. ( Or sit it.) (Hope for the open topped Land Raider as a fire platform) I'd hope for a better way to have lootas over all. I'm for lootin but I'm also for keeping the lootas with Deff gunz as a renamed unit. A throw back to the 2nd Ed kustum kombi weapons, maybe just name them Deff Gunz and also make a unit of lootas that loot. Mostly I like that. Give us a new unit that does something but don't take anything away from what we have. I'm stuck on lootas either using looted weapons and vehicles or being a unit of orks that actively loot during the game. It's an interesting idea But it has to be easy to play so it doesn't slow down the game.
I met a guy years ago that won the first Jaxcon, or something like that so it must have been first edition. He won it with Orks. He said he was able to loot through out the games and started with an army that were basically just boys and ended with lots of Orks in power armour, standing behind "naked Orks". I'm digressing a bit.. This kind of thing is why I'd love 40K to scale back to a more skirmish sized game with trackable units and progression for warbands. more like a path to glory crossed with Necromunda.. How much fun would that be!

As far as i've been fighting orks, i'd say there nothing but a bunch of artillery guys. They sit at the back and shoot on whatever they can. I've had some nasty surprises with them preventing my IG from going any further because they were basically to Deadly for anything else than a tank to be dealt with. Furthermore, if they get a good cover, they usually seem to work great since ignore covers aren't that common.

In my opinion, apart from putting them in an elite slot, there isn't much to be changed about those.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
As far as i've been fighting orks, i'd say there nothing but a bunch of artillery guys. They sit at the back and shoot on whatever they can. I've had some nasty surprises with them preventing my IG from going any further because they were basically to Deadly for anything else than a tank to be dealt with. Furthermore, if they get a good cover, they usually seem to work great since ignore covers aren't that common.

In my opinion, apart from putting them in an elite slot, there isn't much to be changed about those.

Well the entire tau army has Ignores cover. Space Marines have drop pods which always have a flamer or 3 in their so they get destroyed by that, IG have tons of weapons that Ignore Cover (barrage), Eldar dont care about Lootas because they can swamp them in Scat bikes, Wraithknights, Warpspiders and so on, Mechanicum has Ignores cover as well, DE have a hard time with Ignores cover so there is that. Nids are the same.....so when you say Ignores cover is rare you mean for Orks, Nids and DE right? because everyone else has a lot of it.

Hum you have a point in there. But though, i still regard them as a quite good troop overall. It's Worth taking in account that space marines coming in drop pods are quite taking risk against orks and that normaly, you have priority targets that ought not to be the lootas sitting at the back when you're dealing with orks advancing towards your guys in order to give you hell, and so on...

My competitive experience is anyway limited to watching since i'm a soft player, so i admit that my contribution can seem limited and somewhat irrelevant but eh.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Hum you have a point in there. But though, i still regard them as a quite good troop overall. It's Worth taking in account that space marines coming in drop pods are quite taking risk against orks and that normaly, you have priority targets that ought not to be the lootas sitting at the back when you're dealing with orks advancing towards your guys in order to give you hell, and so on...

My competitive experience is anyway limited to watching since i'm a soft player, so i admit that my contribution can seem limited and somewhat irrelevant but eh.

Generally speaking Drop pod SMs are suicide squads, but against orks they can be a very big thorn because Orks don't have enough dakka to really hurt the SMs that much so they rely on CC, if the Drop pods remove the nearby threats the Ork player has to turn units around that are heading towards the SM line in order to deal with the threat in his rear and to keep his Lootas/Mek Gunz alive.

I have played to many games where drop pods and deep striking units wipe out my back line

The Orks need so much stuff that I can't imagine any suggestion for Lootas being too crazy. Looting IoM stuff isn't exactly taking over the world, unfortunately.

Maybe letting them loot some grav cannons might help

Honestly I think D3+1 isn't a bad solution. Does it fit their fluff/intended purpose? Nope, but we all know how GW is about gak like that. What I like about lootas being BS2 is that it doesn't really matter too much if they have to snap fire. Most folks put loot as in cover, and going from a 4+ ruin save, to a 3+ gtg save is a decent improvement and if they got the D3+1 shots it would be attending the better.

I feel like D3+1's kinda overdoing it. There's basically no bad result there and it just means you're kicking out good to ludicrous firepower every turn, without any potential drawbacks. I still like the suggestion someone made a while ago of Mek's Tools allowing you to re-roll for any randomised weapons (Deffgun's, Snazzguns, the Mek Guns that have it) – means there's a reason to have Meks with Lootas, gives them a little boost, and is nice and fluffy.

Only read the first page TBH. I played D3+1 with my buddy against my BA and it wasn't too bad. I was also gonna suggest a possible BS3 if a Big Mek was taken, but I think rerolling low shot count would be a nice balance

 Nazrak wrote:
I feel like D3+1's kinda overdoing it. There's basically no bad result there and it just means you're kicking out good to ludicrous firepower every turn, without any potential drawbacks. I still like the suggestion someone made a while ago of Mek's Tools allowing you to re-roll for any randomised weapons (Deffgun's, Snazzguns, the Mek Guns that have it) – means there's a reason to have Meks with Lootas, gives them a little boost, and is nice and fluffy.

Do the math Naz, D3+1 means in a unit of 15 lootas you go from 5, 10, 15 hits depending on dice rolls to 10, 15, 20 depending on dice rolls. What it really does is eliminates the HORRENDOUS downside of a loota, which is 1 shot per turn. 2 shots at least gives you a semblance of inflicting damage on the enemy. 20 hits means your going to feth up a target nicely, keep in mind though that its still only AP4 without any ability to gain Ignores cover and what not so there is that. You could also reduce maximum size of lootas to 10 and I wouldnt mind. That would be 7, 10, 12-13ish hits per turn which is not bad at all. and just to add more flavor to my comment, for a minimum unit of 5 thats 3, 5 and 7 hits respectively. Or in other words, it makes them worth taking in MSU style armies because they can actually inflict some damage before getting destroyed.

The extra shots are off set by their horrendous accuracy.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
I feel like D3+1's kinda overdoing it. There's basically no bad result there and it just means you're kicking out good to ludicrous firepower every turn, without any potential drawbacks. I still like the suggestion someone made a while ago of Mek's Tools allowing you to re-roll for any randomised weapons (Deffgun's, Snazzguns, the Mek Guns that have it) – means there's a reason to have Meks with Lootas, gives them a little boost, and is nice and fluffy.

Do the math Naz, D3+1 means in a unit of 15 lootas you go from 5, 10, 15 hits depending on dice rolls to 10, 15, 20 depending on dice rolls. What it really does is eliminates the HORRENDOUS downside of a loota, which is 1 shot per turn. 2 shots at least gives you a semblance of inflicting damage on the enemy. 20 hits means your going to feth up a target nicely, keep in mind though that its still only AP4 without any ability to gain Ignores cover and what not so there is that. You could also reduce maximum size of lootas to 10 and I wouldnt mind. That would be 7, 10, 12-13ish hits per turn which is not bad at all. and just to add more flavor to my comment, for a minimum unit of 5 thats 3, 5 and 7 hits respectively. Or in other words, it makes them worth taking in MSU style armies because they can actually inflict some damage before getting destroyed.

I think where we're somewhat at odds is that you seem to want Orks to be reliable, in terms of how they perform on the tabletop. I want them to be unreliable, and unpredictable, because for me, that's a large part of what the army's about. You're obviously perfectly entitled to have a different view of what Orks should be, but I think that view is somewhat at odds with 1. The view the GW design team have of what Orks should be; 2. What Orks have been ever since later 1st edition, when 'Ere We Go and Freebooterz introduced the likes of malfunction cards and randomised tables for almost everything.

I think where we're somewhat at odds is that you seem to want Orks to be reliable, in terms of how they perform on the tabletop. I want them to be unreliable, and unpredictable, because for me, that's a large part of what the army's about. You're obviously perfectly entitled to have a different view of what Orks should be, but I think that view is somewhat at odds with 1. The view the GW design team have of what Orks should be; 2. What Orks have been ever since later 1st edition, when 'Ere We Go and Freebooterz introduced the likes of malfunction cards and randomised tables for almost everything.

I could agree to that if I thought that there was a , Oh I don't really know, a stronger up side to being "random". which I don't really think is there. I've mentioned else where that I think GW missed the boat on a few other weapons in the Ork codex. Just adding a few special rules would have made them more..useful if not more deadly.
But I didn't really start with Orks until 3rd edition and at that time I think they were very reliable. My brother played them several time during second and we both had some amazing reactions to the Splatta Kannon, as it went up and down the table killing loads of Guardsmen then back toward his lines to kill some of his own models. ..We had a blast with that. But I think it was different in that it didn't really have a noticeable downside to his game or his army. Though it was amazing to experience. This edition and codex have most defiantly changed the way I plan an army. If nothing's worth the point then why not take a little of everything so I don't get disappointed. for lootas this just means mobs of 5, some times they really surprise everyone playing.
I actually think the other armies costing less points than they should hurts Codex Orks a lot. we can't very well expect to get out units much cheaper than they already are. Can we?

 Nazrak wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
I feel like D3+1's kinda overdoing it. There's basically no bad result there and it just means you're kicking out good to ludicrous firepower every turn, without any potential drawbacks. I still like the suggestion someone made a while ago of Mek's Tools allowing you to re-roll for any randomised weapons (Deffgun's, Snazzguns, the Mek Guns that have it) – means there's a reason to have Meks with Lootas, gives them a little boost, and is nice and fluffy.

Do the math Naz, D3+1 means in a unit of 15 lootas you go from 5, 10, 15 hits depending on dice rolls to 10, 15, 20 depending on dice rolls. What it really does is eliminates the HORRENDOUS downside of a loota, which is 1 shot per turn. 2 shots at least gives you a semblance of inflicting damage on the enemy. 20 hits means your going to feth up a target nicely, keep in mind though that its still only AP4 without any ability to gain Ignores cover and what not so there is that. You could also reduce maximum size of lootas to 10 and I wouldnt mind. That would be 7, 10, 12-13ish hits per turn which is not bad at all. and just to add more flavor to my comment, for a minimum unit of 5 thats 3, 5 and 7 hits respectively. Or in other words, it makes them worth taking in MSU style armies because they can actually inflict some damage before getting destroyed.

I think where we're somewhat at odds is that you seem to want Orks to be reliable, in terms of how they perform on the tabletop. I want them to be unreliable, and unpredictable, because for me, that's a large part of what the army's about. You're obviously perfectly entitled to have a different view of what Orks should be, but I think that view is somewhat at odds with 1. The view the GW design team have of what Orks should be; 2. What Orks have been ever since later 1st edition, when 'Ere We Go and Freebooterz introduced the likes of malfunction cards and randomised tables for almost everything.

Orks are tragically predictable in 7th, however.

 Nazrak wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
I feel like D3+1's kinda overdoing it. There's basically no bad result there and it just means you're kicking out good to ludicrous firepower every turn, without any potential drawbacks. I still like the suggestion someone made a while ago of Mek's Tools allowing you to re-roll for any randomised weapons (Deffgun's, Snazzguns, the Mek Guns that have it) – means there's a reason to have Meks with Lootas, gives them a little boost, and is nice and fluffy.

Do the math Naz, D3+1 means in a unit of 15 lootas you go from 5, 10, 15 hits depending on dice rolls to 10, 15, 20 depending on dice rolls. What it really does is eliminates the HORRENDOUS downside of a loota, which is 1 shot per turn. 2 shots at least gives you a semblance of inflicting damage on the enemy. 20 hits means your going to feth up a target nicely, keep in mind though that its still only AP4 without any ability to gain Ignores cover and what not so there is that. You could also reduce maximum size of lootas to 10 and I wouldnt mind. That would be 7, 10, 12-13ish hits per turn which is not bad at all. and just to add more flavor to my comment, for a minimum unit of 5 thats 3, 5 and 7 hits respectively. Or in other words, it makes them worth taking in MSU style armies because they can actually inflict some damage before getting destroyed.

I think where we're somewhat at odds is that you seem to want Orks to be reliable, in terms of how they perform on the tabletop. I want them to be unreliable, and unpredictable, because for me, that's a large part of what the army's about. You're obviously perfectly entitled to have a different view of what Orks should be, but I think that view is somewhat at odds with 1. The view the GW design team have of what Orks should be; 2. What Orks have been ever since later 1st edition, when 'Ere We Go and Freebooterz introduced the likes of malfunction cards and randomised tables for almost everything.

I am fine with being unpredictable and random (to a degree) at the end of the day this is still a competitive game, even in its most friendly setting people are still attempting to win. Here is the problem. With MSU Lootas you have 5 lootas with no armor, low leadership, and no way to use Mob rule (unless you buy a mek which defeats the entire purpose of the MSU part) So what you have is 5 models capable of putting out 5, 10 and 15 shots depending on dice rolls. The downside is that they suck and will run off the table pretty quick or get wiped out quick, adding to that is that if you roll for 1 shot your averaging 1.66 HITS a turn. Against a T5 or less unit that usually equals 1 wound at AP4. Against Targets you want to be shooting Lootas at (vehicles, MCs) that is usually a lot less reliable. AV12 is glancing on 5s (AV11 on 4s for a 50/50 chance of doing anything), against T6-7 MCs its a 2/3rd chance to a 1/2 chance to actually wound them, and those MCs generally have 3+ armor or better and a FNP so even less likely to do anything. That is the problem in the game at the moment. Back in 3rd and even 4th edition S7 AP4 meant something, now it really doesnt. Now you NEED several shots to do anything. Scatter lasers are only good because they pump out 4 Shots at S6.

So again, I am fine with Randomness but at least make it worth taking. D3+1 equals almost 3 hits instead of 1. And at the top end it goes from 5 hits to a little less then 7...not a huge deal.


What I am not ok with is Unreliable. Randomness is fine, but the unreliable aspect ruins any competitiveness the army could have. A perfect example are our Random Strength weapons. Your more likely to waste a turn of shooting then you are of actually inflicting any damage against an enemy. The days where this was acceptable are long gone. It used to be tabling an opponent was rare, now? it happens to often.

Question for younz.
What do you all target with you lootas?
I target multi wound models single models when I can and light vehicles or small poorly armoured squads, like pathfinders.
I some times think that we're all using lootas completely differently.

 warhead01 wrote:
Question for younz.
What do you all target with you lootas?
I target multi wound models single models when I can and light vehicles or small poorly armoured squads, like pathfinders.
I some times think that we're all using lootas completely differently.

I use Lootas against Flyers, MCs FMCs. I try to focus fire anything with 4+ Saves. I will gladly use these against Bikes and AV12 or less vehicles.

I think ork randomness should be "Curse of the Wulfen" style: all upside, but requiring thought (though not planning) to use effectively.

 Splork wrote:
I think ork randomness should be "Curse of the Wulfen" style: all upside, but requiring thought (though not planning) to use effectively.

Exactly.

d3 or d3+1 are both random, but the D3+1 allows for a result that is always decent.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Splork wrote:
I think ork randomness should be "Curse of the Wulfen" style: all upside, but requiring thought (though not planning) to use effectively.

Exactly.

d3 or d3+1 are both random, but the D3+1 allows for a result that is always decent.

Well...D3+1 on a bad roll is 2 shots per weapon, which is currently what everyone else gets (CSM and such) with better BS. So on a 5 man loota squad that equals 10 shots totaling 3.33 hits Not really decent but a lot better then 1.66 thats for sure. On the flipside of that, when it does roll well it will be 6.66 hits which is Decent. In fact it starts getting into Scatterbike range.....except that it is still a 6+ save model that has LD7....

Would this make them "better" enough to forgo wanting a better save for them?

 warhead01 wrote:
Would this make them "better" enough to forgo wanting a better save for them?

I think D3+1 with a 4+ Save for 15pts a model is still the best fit

SemperMortis wrote:
I think D3+1 with a 4+ Save for 15pts a model is still the best fit

I'm all on board with D3+1 shots and a 4+ save. Eavy Armor should be standard on any Ork better than a slugga/shoota boy, which ironically are basically the only unit that gets eavy armor as a choice in the first place.

 adamsouza wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I think D3+1 with a 4+ Save for 15pts a model is still the best fit

I'm all on board with D3+1 shots and a 4+ save. Eavy Armor should be standard on any Ork better than a slugga/shoota boy, which ironically are basically the only unit that gets eavy armor as a choice in the first place.

I would actually love if Orks all got 4+ armor for free. I think it'd be a start to fixing them.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I think D3+1 with a 4+ Save for 15pts a model is still the best fit

I'm all on board with D3+1 shots and a 4+ save. Eavy Armor should be standard on any Ork better than a slugga/shoota boy, which ironically are basically the only unit that gets eavy armor as a choice in the first place.

I would actually love if Orks all got 4+ armor for free. I think it'd be a start to fixing them.

It'd be a start to completely changing the whole vibe of the army. Can't see it happening.

 Nazrak wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I think D3+1 with a 4+ Save for 15pts a model is still the best fit

I'm all on board with D3+1 shots and a 4+ save. Eavy Armor should be standard on any Ork better than a slugga/shoota boy, which ironically are basically the only unit that gets eavy armor as a choice in the first place.

I would actually love if Orks all got 4+ armor for free. I think it'd be a start to fixing them.

It'd be a start to completely changing the whole vibe of the army. Can't see it happening.

I think the specialists should get that but ork boyz shouldn't. But it should be a 2pt upgrade for boyz so you can actually have some Skarboyz if you want.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I think D3+1 with a 4+ Save for 15pts a model is still the best fit

I'm all on board with D3+1 shots and a 4+ save. Eavy Armor should be standard on any Ork better than a slugga/shoota boy, which ironically are basically the only unit that gets eavy armor as a choice in the first place.

I would actually love if Orks all got 4+ armor for free. I think it'd be a start to fixing them.

I would rather see baseline FNP. Maybe 6+ FNP stock and during a WAAAGH!!! it goes to 5+ while a Painboy can bump it up by 1. 4+ armor can be stock for all Nob statlines (including Gitz and Nob squad leaders).

Nobz definitely need a 4+ standard, no raise in cost.

4+ grots ftw

 Vankraken wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I think D3+1 with a 4+ Save for 15pts a model is still the best fit

I'm all on board with D3+1 shots and a 4+ save. Eavy Armor should be standard on any Ork better than a slugga/shoota boy, which ironically are basically the only unit that gets eavy armor as a choice in the first place.

I would actually love if Orks all got 4+ armor for free. I think it'd be a start to fixing them.

I would rather see baseline FNP. Maybe 6+ FNP stock and during a WAAAGH!!! it goes to 5+ while a Painboy can bump it up by 1. 4+ armor can be stock for all Nob statlines (including Gitz and Nob squad leaders).

Yeah I like the idea of fnp with a painboy boost. Gitz should def have 4+, would prefer Nobz to just be cheaper and have it as an option.