Someone at my FLGS is looking to get an army painted, he's considering sending it to Blue Table Painting.
They are asking for the price of a nice used car, but he likes the fact they are in the US and have a process where he can order models painted up to a certain level.
Does anyone still use them? If so, what experiences have you had?
Well, to begin with, I am reliant on painting services and commissions, nerve damage in my dominant arm means that holding a brush steady is a no-go for me. So about 4 or so years ago, I gave Blue Table Painting a shot, several actually on a couple of projects.
My experiences are mixed, but on a definite downward trend. The first time, when BTP was relatively small and unknown, I actually had a pretty good and positive experience. But all of my later projects were pretty nasty. I had a Sisters of Battle army practically vanish under their watch, with a promised delivery date of January (I sent it in around November) being missed and, as I found out, they hadn't even unpacked the box in January. I was given many run-arounds and misleading statements as I worked through that. I will say that usually the paint quality is decent, however their customer service is (at least when I last used it) amazingly poor.
Plus, as jreilly mentioned, BTP was caught up in a very nasty case a couple of years back with a Chaos Dwarf army that went completely off the rails. It was on the verge of going to court before it settled, but in the process, BTP really burned what little goodwill they had. The thread is still around here on Dakka somewhere, but I'm afraid I can't recall where.
In short, BTP is a good -idea-, but their execution has severely fallen short. Your friend is mistaking their level system as something unique when really any commission painter will offer the same kind of service. It's extremely common. I would not recommend BTP, and instead, either use something like Frontline Gaming, or any of the commission painters here on Dakka, some of which I have used for years to great effect and I've built wonderful working relationships with.
Well, to begin with, I am reliant on painting services and commissions, nerve damage in my dominant arm means that holding a brush steady is a no-go for me. So about 4 or so years ago, I gave Blue Table Painting a shot, several actually on a couple of projects.
My experiences are mixed, but on a definite downward trend. The first time, when BTP was relatively small and unknown, I actually had a pretty good and positive experience. But all of my later projects were pretty nasty. I had a Sisters of Battle army practically vanish under their watch, with a promised delivery date of January (I sent it in around November) being missed and, as I found out, they hadn't even unpacked the box in January. I was given many run-arounds and misleading statements as I worked through that. I will say that usually the paint quality is decent, however their customer service is (at least when I last used it) amazingly poor.
Plus, as jreilly mentioned, BTP was caught up in a very nasty case a couple of years back with a Chaos Dwarf army that went completely off the rails. It was on the verge of going to court before it settled, but in the process, BTP really burned what little goodwill they had. The thread is still around here on Dakka somewhere, but I'm afraid I can't recall where.
In short, BTP is a good -idea-, but their execution has severely fallen short. Your friend is mistaking their level system as something unique when really any commission painter will offer the same kind of service. It's extremely common. I would not recommend BTP, and instead, either use something like Frontline Gaming, or any of the commission painters here on Dakka, some of which I have used for years to great effect and I've built wonderful working relationships with.
Blue table had a horrible Idea when it came to painting. It has several painters working on the same project with no coordination, one person did basecoating, another wash another this another that with no coordination between. the bosses will dictate which paints to use as which stages, and you cant go beyond and so forth.
Go to frontline. They are serious. They give the model to the painter, tell him the LVL of detail, tell him any paint scheme and than tell them to just finish it.
Den of Imagination, Golem painting, GMM studios, Frontline, and dozens of artists on Dakka - all are almost the same price as BTP's laughable quality of work. Hell Goatboy/spikey bitz can put out some extremely good work for pennies in comparison
BTP has the social media following, a charismatic guy, and a large collections of videos. Quality of work produced to price is laughable.
Never use BTP. They're good at marketing (or at least they used to be), especially to new players who don't know any better, but they suck at everything else. And the sad thing is everything about that chaos dwarfs debacle was stuff we'd known for years. Their painting quality is mediocre at best and expensive, and the owner boasts about having a "no refunds, ever" policy because "the first rule of business is once you have the customer's money you never give it back". Combined with the fact that you have to pay half (IIRC) the cost up front you have a situation where BTP does their usual mediocre work and you have a choice between paying them the rest of the money for models the average 10 year old could have painted or writing off the initial payment and getting nothing. And this is true even if BTP is at fault, the best that you can hope for without taking them to court is that they "correct" the problem without giving any kind of refund.
TL;DR: BTP. Other painters do better work with more reasonable refund policies.
Nearly any gaming community of any size will have a few local painters, although as always, timeliness and reliability can vary dramatically.
BTP has a very... erratic reputation. As a long running business, they're better than average at producing a painted project roughly on time and on budget, which is where most solos really fall through. If you have realistic expectations for what the final project will look like, and you don't mind some of the more powerful techniques to speed up painting, like airbrushing, powerful washes, etc, than you'll likely be fine.
Essentially, the biggest selling point for BTP is that they are reliable, although there are certainly counterexamples of that. But commission painting is all about picking two of the following three priorities: speed, quality, price.
I'll echo others and say avoid BTP. I used them for a few projects back in 2005-2006 and the quality in each commission varied wildly, and the pricing was extremely high for the quality of work I received.
To add to the list of alternative painting services try Garden Ninja Painting. It is a great, one-man operation that hasn't let me down in 7 years of regular business.
jreilly89 wrote: Not sure if anyone used them. They caught a lot of gak after the whole Chaos Dwarfs incident. I'd recommend Den of Imagination, they're pretty great.
They're still in business?
I've used them before, and I was not impressed. The oddest part was having a bastion painted the completly wrong color. They redid it right, but you have to wonder what kind of misconnunication happened that had a project very clearly using a green color scheme come out bright red.
Peregrine wrote: ...and the owner boasts about having a "no refunds, ever" policy because "the first rule of business is once you have the customer's money you never give it back".
Christ, that sounds more like one of the Ferengi "Rules of Acquisition" than a serious way to run a business. Makes the guy sound like a crook.
Peregrine wrote: ...and the owner boasts about having a "no refunds, ever" policy because "the first rule of business is once you have the customer's money you never give it back".
Christ, that sounds more like one of the Ferengi "Rules of Acquisition" than a serious way to run a business. Makes the guy sound like a crook.
It is, in fact, no. 1 in the Rules of Acquisition.
well me personally the part I look forward to with miniatures is painting and assembling them so I do it myself, i'm not a great painter and do a passable table top standard but not looking to make pieces of art either, but get enough satisfaction with what I do.
Peregrine wrote: ...and the owner boasts about having a "no refunds, ever" policy because "the first rule of business is once you have the customer's money you never give it back".
Christ, that sounds more like one of the Ferengi "Rules of Acquisition" than a serious way to run a business. Makes the guy sound like a crook.
It is, in fact, no. 1 in the Rules of Acquisition.
In fact their old website used to quote it as "the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition say 'never give their money back'" in justifying their refund policy.
If it's a big job, expect it to be done by several different painters who may not all be there for the duration of the job. The bottom tier is maybe worth it if you don't care too much and just want stuff on the table.
Realistically, you'd be much better off finding a local hobbyist/painter who can do it for you; you can presumably pick up / drop off the mini's in person, and you'll get better quality for less money.
techsoldaten wrote: Yeah, I remember the Chaos Dwarves thread. That immediately came to mind.
That said, I am not the client, and people don't always make the decisions we would like. Has anyone had a recent experience with them?
After the Chaos Dwarf debacle, a whole bunch of people decided NOT to have recent experience with them.
I know that I wouldn't want to, and would warn people way from dealing with them. (Send your friend to look at the Chaos Dwarf thread - make sure that they read what was requested, and see what was actually received. I would have been ashamed if it were my paint job.)
Remember - the client paid for a high level of detail, and what he got was OSL crap with primer showing through. (I love OSL when it is well done - Victoria Lamb is a past master of OSL, and is the best painter in the world as far as my opinion goes - this was not well done.)
Peregrine wrote: Never use BTP. They're good at marketing (or at least they used to be), especially to new players who don't know any better, but they suck at everything else. And the sad thing is everything about that chaos dwarfs debacle was stuff we'd known for years. Their painting quality is mediocre at best and expensive, and the owner boasts about having a "no refunds, ever" policy because "the first rule of business is once you have the customer's money you never give it back". Combined with the fact that you have to pay half (IIRC) the cost up front you have a situation where BTP does their usual mediocre work and you have a choice between paying them the rest of the money for models the average 10 year old could have painted or writing off the initial payment and getting nothing. And this is true even if BTP is at fault, the best that you can hope for without taking them to court is that they "correct" the problem without giving any kind of refund.
TL;DR: BTP. Other painters do better work with more reasonable refund policies.
In my situation I find the best way to handle these questions is with pictures and experience. I'm not going to bash them, and if it happens on this thread the mods will probably police it down. I'm sure our painters can give some incite.
So i've bought two models from them when i was learning to paint and needed more talent than i personally had.
The first was converted swarmlord. I'm happy with the basing, but there is some overlap of the black onto flesh areas on the carapace/talon area. I spent 500 something on it
The second is a dimachaeron that i received just before the chaos dwarves thing. I spent over 700 on it for the paint/basing work. If i remember properly i paid for the model myself and had it shipped to them. Once again i'm happy with the basing, and the photos they sent were very pretty. It arrived with the tail snapped off which isn't unexpected. I will confirm what the others have said, it appears that it was primed and very heavily dry brushed for the skin tones. You can see some streaking on the pictures in the tail area.
I'm happy that i have these models. i bought them when my father passed and they gave me something to look forward to. Each of them took around 6 months to complete. I haven't bought a commission piece since but i've been very impressed with den of imagination and awaken realms.
Edit: I apologize they are upside down, when you click on them they go right side up? I don't know why, im not a computer person.
Rotary wrote: In my situation I find the best way to handle these questions is with pictures and experience. I'm not going to bash them, and if it happens on this thread the mods will probably police it down. I'm sure our painters can give some incite.
So i've bought two models from them when i was learning to paint and needed more talent than i personally had.
The first was converted swarmlord. I'm happy with the basing, but there is some overlap of the black onto flesh areas on the carapace/talon area. I spent 500 something on it
The second is a dimachaeron that i received just before the chaos dwarves thing. I spent over 700 on it for the paint/basing work. If i remember properly i paid for the model myself and had it shipped to them. Once again i'm happy with the basing, and the photos they sent were very pretty. It arrived with the tail snapped off which isn't unexpected. I will confirm what the others have said, it appears that it was primed and very heavily dry brushed for the skin tones. You can see some streaking on the pictures in the tail area.
I'm happy that i have these models. i bought them when my father passed and they gave me something to look forward to. Each of them took around 6 months to complete. I haven't bought a commission piece since but i've been very impressed with den of imagination and awaken realms.
Edit: I apologize they are upside down, when you click on them they go right side up? I don't know why, im not a computer person.
I actually think those models look fine, I just think their price is ridiculous.
I worked with them for years. I know the owner personally. I don't use them in large part anymore, because I mostly do my own painting. For big projects there are other places I'd go today, but I still plan on throwing some business their way next year.
Like all business's you interact with, the positive outcomes will typically far outweigh the negative. In our community though, the negative definitely tends to get more press.
BTP provided me with 3 good looking army's. Their costs have gone up since then, sure. Odd's are though, you are going to be happy with the product you got from them.
Rotary wrote: In my situation I find the best way to handle these questions is with pictures and experience. I'm not going to bash them, and if it happens on this thread the mods will probably police it down. I'm sure our painters can give some incite.
So i've bought two models from them when i was learning to paint and needed more talent than i personally had.
The first was converted swarmlord. I'm happy with the basing, but there is some overlap of the black onto flesh areas on the carapace/talon area. I spent 500 something on it
The second is a dimachaeron that i received just before the chaos dwarves thing. I spent over 700 on it for the paint/basing work. If i remember properly i paid for the model myself and had it shipped to them. Once again i'm happy with the basing, and the photos they sent were very pretty. It arrived with the tail snapped off which isn't unexpected. I will confirm what the others have said, it appears that it was primed and very heavily dry brushed for the skin tones. You can see some streaking on the pictures in the tail area.
I'm happy that i have these models. i bought them when my father passed and they gave me something to look forward to. Each of them took around 6 months to complete. I haven't bought a commission piece since but i've been very impressed with den of imagination and awaken realms.
Edit: I apologize they are upside down, when you click on them they go right side up? I don't know why, im not a computer person.
I actually think those models look fine, I just think their price is ridiculous.
I agree, the price and turn around time are much too high. 6 months seems excessive to complete one figure for a studio as large as BTP.
If you are happy with the pieces, Rotary, that is all that matters. However, there are cheaper, faster, and (arguably) higher quality painters out there that can give you more bang for your buck than BTP.
Rotary wrote: In my situation I find the best way to handle these questions is with pictures and experience. I'm not going to bash them, and if it happens on this thread the mods will probably police it down. I'm sure our painters can give some incite. So i've bought two models from them when i was learning to paint and needed more talent than i personally had. The first was converted swarmlord. I'm happy with the basing, but there is some overlap of the black onto flesh areas on the carapace/talon area. I spent 500 something on it The second is a dimachaeron that i received just before the chaos dwarves thing. I spent over 700 on it for the paint/basing work. If i remember properly i paid for the model myself and had it shipped to them. Once again i'm happy with the basing, and the photos they sent were very pretty. It arrived with the tail snapped off which isn't unexpected. I will confirm what the others have said, it appears that it was primed and very heavily dry brushed for the skin tones. You can see some streaking on the pictures in the tail area. I'm happy that i have these models. i bought them when my father passed and they gave me something to look forward to. Each of them took around 6 months to complete. I haven't bought a commission piece since but i've been very impressed with den of imagination and awaken realms. Edit: I apologize they are upside down, when you click on them they go right side up? I don't know why, im not a computer person.
They look nice, but yeah just the price is a bit crazy.
Commission painting is expensive because it's time consuming work, but if you paid me $20 an hour that means I could spend 35 hours on the Dimachaeron and I think in that time I could paint it better than they did. Spending a bit more time filling gaps and whatnot and producing a similar but cleaner result. But I'm not a professional painter, I'd expect a pro to do better work faster than I can.
Personally based on the stories I'd stay away from BTP, but if I were commissioning them to do something it'd probably be a low-end job, like I just want an army painted to a low-end gaming standard but don't have the time to do it myself. I haven't seen any high-end work from them that I thought looked worth while.
... all done to a tabletop standard, with base colors, 1 level of shadow, and 1 level of highlight? Does anyone have any comparisons?
Someone could probably give you a quote, but I think doing that you'd be looking at spending nearly 2 hours on each infantry model and maybe a day or so on the Dread, that's assuming you spend a bit of time to do them neatly without going to the effort of multiple highlights and whatnot. Space Wolves are annoyingly highly detailed so actually take a bit of work, so maybe 40ish hours of work.
But how much a commission painter pays themselves per hour varies wildly. Expect to be paying them for a couple of days to a week's worth of wages, if it's more than that you're probably paying too much (or they are painting it to a higher standard).
The Chaos Dwarf fiasco, the Tau Terrain fiasco, a host of other minor smoke n mirrors incidents. Coupled with the owner's frankly bizarre business structure, opinions and odd streams of consciousness on videos.
Yeah, my money would go nowhere near this company. Ever.
... all done to a tabletop standard, with base colors, 1 level of shadow, and 1 level of highlight? Does anyone have any comparisons?
When I commission painted during college on the side that would be $25 to build + $60 to paint to the lowest quality level I offered + Shipping Cost. Taking low quality jobs tend to pay about $10/hr which as soon as I was out of college that became a joke. I now only paint for myself and one client thats a friend of mine.
I can show you at least 6 more low quality SM armies (no SW's) that were about this cost (The entire army to build paint 8 Vehicles~ + 80 Marines would generally be around $500). This would net you a 10-14/20 on a GT painting score.
- Prime, Basecoat, Layer, Wash
- No Drilled Barrels
- Basic Bases, some cork - some grass
- Maximum 1 highlight
- 2 week turn around
Those marines, while not very well done, are completely decent tabletop-standard miniatures, and would be fine at the $10 per hour price point.
Commission work seems pretty unnecessary to me overall, unless people have money to burn or want an especially beautiful paint job for a specific model. I don't like the idea of entire armies being commissioned out (mainly because of high price, time, and removing the artistic side of modelling) but that's just me.
I would think that nearly anyone, with a bit of research and practice, could produce marines equal to or better than those above.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Those marines, while not very well done, are completely decent tabletop-standard miniatures, and would be fine at the $10 per hour price point.
Commission work seems pretty unnecessary to me overall, unless people have money to burn or want an especially beautiful paint job for a specific model. I don't like the idea of entire armies being commissioned out (mainly because of high price, time, and removing the artistic side of modelling) but that's just me.
I would think that nearly anyone, with a bit of research and practice, could produce marines equal to or better than those above.
Sure thing, I'll just un-damage the nerves in my arm with a bit of research. :|
But hey, I'm sure I could find something that you don't do in the hobby that I can belittle you about, huh.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Those marines, while not very well done, are completely decent tabletop-standard miniatures, and would be fine at the $10 per hour price point.
Commission work seems pretty unnecessary to me overall, unless people have money to burn or want an especially beautiful paint job for a specific model. I don't like the idea of entire armies being commissioned out (mainly because of high price, time, and removing the artistic side of modelling) but that's just me.
I would think that nearly anyone, with a bit of research and practice, could produce marines equal to or better than those above.
It's all an issue of time for most people. If I add up the time it took me to paint my Tyranid army, it's over 200 hours and took me 3 years to complete. My Night Goblin army was full of speed painted models and it STILL took around 130 hours at a quick guess and it's only about 1250pts
I don't see me ever painting a full army again, I just don't have the patience anymore. I started working on my Space Hulk set again and by my calcs it'll be about 50 hours to paint the Terminators and another 40ish to do the Genestealers. And it's certainly not painted to what many would consider a high standard.
Then you also have high end painters, who paint stuff at a level of quality I will *never* achieve. I can see why someone might commission one of them.... though personally I don't place a high value on displaying wargaming miniatures so I'd never pay for a high end piece.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Those marines, while not very well done, are completely decent tabletop-standard miniatures, and would be fine at the $10 per hour price point.
Commission work seems pretty unnecessary to me overall, unless people have money to burn or want an especially beautiful paint job for a specific model. I don't like the idea of entire armies being commissioned out (mainly because of high price, time, and removing the artistic side of modelling) but that's just me.
I would think that nearly anyone, with a bit of research and practice, could produce marines equal to or better than those above.
Exactly!
On the other hand - if you're a wealthy guy that works around the clock I can understand getting any army commission painting. The majority of my clients were guys in their 30s-40s with kids, career and families. I've never personally paid for someone to paint an army for me - but thats because I can paint to the standard I use on the table top. Time constraints - even with my painting ability turns any project I have into a 6-12 month project instead of a few weeks or a lower quality rush job. A few guys on the 40kATC/ETC get their armies pro painting - they just don't have time for it.
I had fun spending over a year to paint 150+ points of Circle, but I no longer have the time to paint another army like it until maybe next summer. I'm working on my table/terrain for well over a year at this point... and still have "twelve weekends" or so left since I can only really paint on Sundays
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Commission work seems pretty unnecessary to me overall, unless people have money to burn or want an especially beautiful paint job for a specific model. I don't like the idea of entire armies being commissioned out (mainly because of high price, time, and removing the artistic side of modelling) but that's just me.
Just because you may possibly be able to paint to the same quality as a commission painter, doesn't mean commissions are unnecessary - people may not have the time to paint a horde of miniatures, or they can't work well to a schedule, like me for instance.
Plus, getting to a point where you can paint at that level can take a very long time indeed. It took me 6 years to get to (just about) high end tabletop quality. Some people may not be willing to spend that long, or simply may not be able to paint even if they try due to injuries and other limitations, like curran said.
Sure, it makes sense not to commission out if you feel like you can do the same, or better, and have the time to do it. Not everyone is in that position though.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Commission work seems pretty unnecessary to me overall, unless people have money to burn or want an especially beautiful paint job for a specific model. I don't like the idea of entire armies being commissioned out (mainly because of high price, time, and removing the artistic side of modelling) but that's just me.
It unfortunately isn't just you. This opinion, or ones similar to it, crop up in most commission painting threads. And it is rather ignorant of the factors that push people to choose commission painting over painting themselves.
As curran12 pointed out sometimes there is a physical limitation that prevents a player from assembling and painting an army.
Sometimes it is a time factor--work + kids/family + whatever other life events you have often trump hobby time in terms of priorities, so getting an army from sprue to display case can take months or years for some people and that investment in time isn't worthwhile.
Lack of interest may be a factor. The hobby is diverse, and different aspects appeal to different people. I personally like assembling and playing the games more than I like painting. Painting is dull, and if I am going to spend money and time on expensive models I want them to look as good as possible-- which is where a commission painter comes in. Someone with skills more advanced than mine can create the aesthetic for a model or army that I can't produce on my own. That is worth money to me. This hobby is about aesthetics more than anything in my opinion, so paying to have a beautiful army is just another cost associated with the hobby.
The counter-argument that having someone else paint or assemble your models reduces the artistic merit of the models is one I have issues with for a few reasons.
1: An army is being created and painted and will exist where previously it may not have. This adds artistic value to the hobby overall, and makes the gaming experience of everyone who interacts with the commissioned army better. In short the gaming community gains from a well-painted commissioned army existing.
2. Some people produce pretty awful armies on their own. While they may pour their hearts into the poorly glued bits of plastic slathered in paint, the army itself might be lacking because that person isn't an artist, or only wanted to achieve the bare minimum in order to get their army on the table (again, people's priorities are different in terms of this hobby). I'd argue those types of armies add less to the gaming experience of a gaming community because there isn't much to make those armies stand out. Most of us have seen a hastily assembled Space Marine army, or Necrons spray painted gun metal with a few details picked out. Those aren't necessarily engaging people's imaginations the same way that a unique, well-painted and assembled army will.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: I would think that nearly anyone, with a bit of research and practice, could produce marines equal to or better than those above.
Who has the time for that? Honestly, not everyone can devote the "10,000 hours" to get good at something. Especially if that something isn't of particular interest to you or is physically impossible.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Those marines, while not very well done, are completely decent tabletop-standard miniatures, and would be fine at the $10 per hour price point.
Commission work seems pretty unnecessary to me overall, unless people have money to burn or want an especially beautiful paint job for a specific model. I don't like the idea of entire armies being commissioned out (mainly because of high price, time, and removing the artistic side of modelling) but that's just me.
I would think that nearly anyone, with a bit of research and practice, could produce marines equal to or better than those above.
Sure thing, I'll just un-damage the nerves in my arm with a bit of research. :|
But hey, I'm sure I could find something that you don't do in the hobby that I can belittle you about, huh.
No idea where you're coming from on this, but no offense was intended if you're disabled. I'm not "belittling" anyone by stating the above opinion, just reiterating that I think the models in the picture above are achievable with a little time invested by almost anyone able to do so.
I understand there are lots of reasons people decide to opt for commission painting, I would just never choose to do so. When I got into 40K, I knew that painting up the force was a part of it, and I was fine investing the time and attempting to learn a new skill. Not trying to put anyone down because they choose differently.
Not to be too blunt about it, but I've lived years with this nerve damage, and I've been told dozens of times "oh why do you commission armies, just do some practice", usually with the same kind of sneer of 'you're removing the artistic side of the hobby' as well. Your intent may not have been to belittle, but when you out and out say that it removes something of the hobby, it is a clear message that by commissioning armies, I am somehow not as fully invested as you.
The price on those tyranids is beyond ridiculous though. When I budget something for commission painting, I usually use a $20/hour to estimate how much I want to spend. $700 at what I consider an adequate baseline rate would be a day and half of continuous work on it. Let's say you were paying the premium for top quality work, say $50/hr. It simply doesn't look like a model that had 14 hours of work devoted to it by a highly skilled painted.
It's been said before and it'll be said again: BTP is/was sort of the Wal Mart of commission painting services. It wasn't great, but it didn't suck. It was usually quick and painless, and you generally knew exactly what you were getting/paying for.
Unfortunately the whole studio kind of... imploded and everything good about it went down hill.
From the videos they're still posting they seem to have rebounded some, but they're a lot smaller now, don't have a physical studio, and seem to be doing smaller projects that one artist can knock out more often than not.
I would still recommend going with Frontline or DoI or someone similar, but HOPEFULLY BTP is turning it around and will get back to the point where the prices match the quality.
curran12 wrote: Not to be too blunt about it, but I've lived years with this nerve damage, and I've been told dozens of times "oh why do you commission armies, just do some practice", usually with the same kind of sneer of 'you're removing the artistic side of the hobby' as well. Your intent may not have been to belittle, but when you out and out say that it removes something of the hobby, it is a clear message that by commissioning armies, I am somehow not as fully invested as you.
Some people would say you would be fully invested if you had a paintbrush in your mouth and were holding the minis with your toes.
But not me. I understand what nerve damage means and how awful it can be trying to hold something still. Totally legitimate reason for using a painting service.
I would still recommend going with Frontline or DoI or someone similar, but HOPEFULLY BTP is turning it around and will get back to the point where the prices match the quality.
I am a vocal anti-BTP person (their business practices disgust me) but I am asking this genuinely and with no ill will--have BTP's prices EVER matched the quality they offer?
I commissioned work from them over a decade ago, and it was okay work, but clearly done via the "dip" method with some light brush work to pick out a few details. This was using their 3/5 level of painting where troops were painted to "level 3" and heroes were painted at "level 5." Even when I was enthused about the army it was hard for me to identify much of a difference between their paint levels, but the pricing difference certainly was apparent.
Having never commissioned paintwork prior to that army I was naive to the pricing of other painters and thought BTP's pricing and quality was as good as it got. To BTP's credit they were reliable, had a sophisticated looking website in relation to a lot of one-person painters at the time, and had great customer service. So I wasn't unhappy with my treatment, and felt comfortable shipping an army-sized project off to them.
However, it didn't take long for me to learn that BTP used corner cutting techniques to paint, and that their consistency was non-existent between projects. This was painfully clear when I tried adding to the army I first commissioned and received back models that did not match up with their host army.
Now, to be fair, I've seen some cool projects of theirs posted on Youtube and they did at various points have talented painters and model/terrain builders, but I don't think their prices ever really matched the quality they were providing. Their prices seemed consistently higher than other studios and the most obvious reason for that difference is all of the overhead BTP had (has?) in terms of space, staff, etc.
Unless BTP becomes just Shawn painting in his garage I doubt there will ever be a point where BTP isn't charging more for work that you could find done faster and cheaper elsewhere.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Commission work seems pretty unnecessary to me overall, unless people have money to burn or want an especially beautiful paint job for a specific model. I don't like the idea of entire armies being commissioned out (mainly because of high price, time, and removing the artistic side of modelling) but that's just me.
Just because you may possibly be able to paint to the same quality as a commission painter, doesn't mean commissions are unnecessary - people may not have the time to paint a horde of miniatures, or they can't work well to a schedule, like me for instance.
Plus, getting to a point where you can paint at level can take a very long time indeed. It took me 6 years to get to (just about) high end tabletop quality. Some people may not be willing to spend that long, or simply may not be able to paint even if they try due to injuries and other limitations, like curran said.
Sure, it makes sense not to commission out if you feel like you can do the same, or better, and have the time to do it. Not everyone is in that position though.
G.A
Back when I was painting for commission there were two main types of customer - one was folks that had families, particularly children - that ate up their available time. (I... am now one of their number. I'm over fifty, my good lady is in her thirties, but our first child was born just last month - Brigid Danger O'Grump. )
The other group were all from the same military base - where the US ARMY ate all of their available time. (Later, one was sent to Germany - but remained one of my steadiest customers.)
I enjoy painting - it is worth my time to paint miniatures because I enjoy doing so. For folks that don't have the time, or who don't enjoy painting, it is a different story - they may not like their day job, but they get paid for it - it is worth the $10 an hour to hire somebody else. That is either hours they don't have or hours they do not want to spend doing something that they don't enjoy doing.
I would still recommend going with Frontline or DoI or someone similar, but HOPEFULLY BTP is turning it around and will get back to the point where the prices match the quality.
I am a vocal anti-BTP person (their business practices disgust me) but I am asking this genuinely and with no ill will--have BTP's prices EVER matched the quality they offer?
I honestly could not tell you. It's never crossed my mind to have something painted for me. It's my favorite part of the hobby, as much fun as throwing a load of dice or cutting plastic is, painting is where I get my jollies.
The only things I know about pricing at BTP is from when I worked for them. Started during their peak (2012), left before the Age of Chaos Dwarves (2014). I just know they were super expensive and a lot that did not trickle down to the artists. I know why Shawn is the way he is about some things, but there are others that have never made sense to me.
I just hope that the total restructuring that BTP has gone through in the last year leads to some positive changes, or I don't see them recovering much of anything.
The price on those tyranids is beyond ridiculous though. When I budget something for commission painting, I usually use a $20/hour to estimate how much I want to spend. $700 at what I consider an adequate baseline rate would be a day and half of continuous work on it. Let's say you were paying the premium for top quality work, say $50/hr. It simply doesn't look like a model that had 14 hours of work devoted to it by a highly skilled painted.
Someone on youtube, Natukue or something, traded a rare old armorcast Eldar titan for a table's worth of Tau terrain (back in that sweet spot time when the titan was long oop and FW hadn't made one, so they commanded a big price on ebay) with BTP... BTP gave them six or so very simplistic roughly carved and poorly painted white tower things, this was not acceptable, was rejected and so Shawn said he'd pay him... well... that went back and forth, lots of upset on the wargaming youtube community, basically Shawn stiffed him, he washed his hands of the whole affair and Shawn lived on, people forgot and his snake oil caravan kept on keeping on...
General Annoyance wrote: Plus, getting to a point where you can paint at that level can take a very long time indeed. It took me 6 years to get to (just about) high end tabletop quality.
I don't think that's as much of an excuse these days. It also took me years before I painted a half decent looking army, but that's because it was 90% trial and error. Someone would describe a technique to me or I'd read a vague tutorial and spend the next few months failing at executing it.
These days there's so many good tutorials out there. There's washes that look good right out of the pot. The basic standard of models you see in stores is much higher now than it was 10-15 years ago. I look at the models I'm currently painting and think "that looks decent" then I go to my local store and hang my head in shame at the quality of work I see your average joe achieving.
There's no reason your first army can't look pretty good these days. Just following Duncan's guides will give a newbie an army that looks better than my first 3 armies even if they can't execute it as well as he can. It took me 2 armies before I even figured out what edge highlighting was let alone how to do it well.
TheAuldGrump wrote: That is either hours they don't have or hours they do not want to spend doing something that they don't enjoy doing.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I don't think that's as much of an excuse these days. It also took me years before I painted a half decent looking army, but that's because it was 90% trial and error. Someone would describe a technique to me or I'd read a vague tutorial and spend the next few months failing at executing it.
These days there's so many good tutorials out there. There's washes that look good right out of the pot. The basic standard of models you see in stores is much higher now than it was 10-15 years ago. I look at the models I'm currently painting and think "that looks decent" then I go to my local store and hang my head in shame at the quality of work I see your average joe achieving.
There's no reason your first army can't look pretty good these days. Just following Duncan's guides will give a newbie an army that looks better than my first 3 armies even if they can't execute it as well as he can. It took me 2 armies before I even figured out what edge highlighting was let alone how to do it well. .
A fair point. I will personally testify to the effectiveness of the WHTV tutorials, as my painting skill has increased exponentially over the past year where I've been watching them - before then I was basically banging my head against a wall just like you were.
It also helps that you have painting streamers who you can watch as they work, and see first hand how they achieve more advanced painting effects, and ask questions. A couple of cheeky questions fired at electriceve from me about how someone completely new to blending can blend, and I can now (very nervously) create a nice green transition on the cloak of my Tau Ethereal. All in the space of a week.
However, with all this in mind, there's still the potential for advancing your skill in painting to be a long process. Some people may not be fast learners, and even when you have learned a new technique, it will take practice until you can do it without a second thought. Learning to paint well has certainly become easier over these past few years, but it might still be a time sink people either can't afford or don't want to do.
I enjoy painting - it is worth my time to paint miniatures because I enjoy doing so. For folks that don't have the time, or who don't enjoy painting, it is a different story - they may not like their day job, but they get paid for it - it is worth the $10 an hour to hire somebody else. That is either hours they don't have or hours they do not want to spend doing something that they don't enjoy doing.
The Auld Grump
I think this is very much where you'll find most people who want commissions, as you have said, and there are certainly plenty of them out there who would do it themselves if it were an option, or they'd rather someone else do it so they can enjoy owning the final product, without any of the potential nuisances and difficulties that come with painting them.
Similar to you, I have a hand injury that makes using my dominant hand to hold things very difficult. I do not play games with unpainted miniatures which means I have hired A LOT of painters from large projects to small including Blue Table Painting, and Nuke Arts for large full armies and after getting my armies back there is 0 doubt in my mind that I 100% overpaid and what was sent did not meet the cost. Neither Nuke or BTP worked on resolving issues and the end result was a "go pound sand".
I have a hard time trusting full armies to single painters anymore, while they can do great work, their time tables can sometimes be very long and on occasion have delays or "issues". I have a project that has been out for almost a year and likely another 3 - 6 months before it completes another that has been in and out of queue going on 8 months. If you find someone solo who does a high standard, realize their pricing will be higher and delays may occur. Where the solo high end painters really excel for me is for HQ choices.. Holy Crap can some of these guys make HQ models sing!
Studios and people I have used:
On Target Studios
MinisbyZach
Octopus Ink
Rolling all Ones
Spiraling Cadaver
BTP
Frontline Gaming
Nuke Arts
War Paint Studio
and a few people from Barter Town and Locals.
out of those the ones I would recommend or that are still painting are
Rolling all Ones
On Target
Frontline Gaming
Spiraling Cadaver
Steer Clear of the following
Nuke Arts (I believe he made off with a ton of peoples stuff)
Blue Table Painting (overcharge and have crazy unrealistic turn around times)
It is very important to note that the prices of all these studios is different and some are single man shops (Rolling all Ones and On Target) I normally commission these guys for one of's or small squads due to cost and quality, they are a higher standard. Frontline Gaming is essentially a middle man who employs multiple single painters and brings them in under their umbrella, MinisbyZach is now a painter for Frontline. With Frontline Gaming you may have multiple people working on different parts of your army but the painting manager, Jason, ensures consistent quality and the same recipes are used across the board, they have never been late on a delivery date nor disappointed me, neither has Rolling or On Target.
So to answer your question on what I would pay as someone who hires painters a lot.
A trick I learned through commissioning different studios is to know exactly what you want, find the exact recipe you want on the models and be very clear that you want that recipe followed, this allows you then hire other studios and you can expect the scheme to match, you can request that they use the exact paint scheme used in the official warhammer videos and they should paint it using those colors (if they refuse, just refuse to use their service, you have tons of options).
My recommendation would be to steer clear of Blue Table Painting, I would never ever recommend someone pay their prices ever for painting, for what they charge you could have a different studio paint each model to showcase quality. I would honestly look into Frontline Gaming, On Target, or Rolling all Ones for your army. I believe out of those Frontline will allow you to price it out off their website.
I would strongly nudge toward Frontline beacause sometimes you get more from them than you're paying for, I hired them for bunch of Batman the Miniatures games minis I was seriously impressed with her work, so much so I request her now for all my Knight Model miniatures https://www.frontlinegaming.org/portfolio-items/knight-models-dc-commission/. On Target (John) is my Primarch//Infinity//Showcase model guy, he is an all around awesome guy who delivers.
I've been doing a handful of commissions over the past year, and these prices blow my mind. I don't consider myself a "pro painter" by any means, and I just lightly advertise myself as being available to paint what others don't have time to paint or just don't want to. While this lead to an interesting job of almost two dozen Mega-Nobs in the same pose, it has still been pretty effective. I really only charge about 5 dollars per miniature, with slight discounts for larger box sets and whatnot (i.e. I'm painting the Death Masque box for my FLGS for 100$ and just finished their demo copy of Mantic's The Walking Dead skirmish game for 60$). Yes, these take quite a while, but I make it known that I have a family and a regular life and a full time job (which is where I get most of my painting done, ironically) and that a handful of models may take a few weeks. Regardless of how long it takes, I really only ever charge 5 dollars per mini for anything Terminator-sized and smaller, and then anything bigger, I usually do half of whatever the stock model cost on the GW or Mantic or whoever's webstore. Seeing people talk about charging 20$/hr for basic table top standard of one shadow and one highlight is mind boggling...
TheWarpSaysHello wrote: I've been doing a handful of commissions over the past year, and these prices blow my mind. I don't consider myself a "pro painter" by any means, and I just lightly advertise myself as being available to paint what others don't have time to paint or just don't want to. While this lead to an interesting job of almost two dozen Mega-Nobs in the same pose, it has still been pretty effective. I really only charge about 5 dollars per miniature, with slight discounts for larger box sets and whatnot (i.e. I'm painting the Death Masque box for my FLGS for 100$ and just finished their demo copy of Mantic's The Walking Dead skirmish game for 60$). Yes, these take quite a while, but I make it known that I have a family and a regular life and a full time job (which is where I get most of my painting done, ironically) and that a handful of models may take a few weeks. Regardless of how long it takes, I really only ever charge 5 dollars per mini for anything Terminator-sized and smaller, and then anything bigger, I usually do half of whatever the stock model cost on the GW or Mantic or whoever's webstore. Seeing people talk about charging 20$/hr for basic table top standard of one shadow and one highlight is mind boggling...
So if you charge $5 a model, how much does that work out per hour for you?
I was the one who said $20 an hour, not because that's what I charge but rather because that's what you'd have to pay me before I even consider doing a commission job and I'd STILL do something better value than BTP's high end stuff.
Realistically no matter how badly you paint you need to charge enough per hour to survive unless you're just doing it for fun and out of the kindness of your heart. Even a poorly painted model still takes me in the realm of 30 minutes to clean, assemble, paint and base, so I wouldn't expect anyone to charge less than half an hour's work at minimum wage unless its some kid living at home with their parents.
TheWarpSaysHello wrote: I've been doing a handful of commissions over the past year, and these prices blow my mind. I don't consider myself a "pro painter" by any means, and I just lightly advertise myself as being available to paint what others don't have time to paint or just don't want to. While this lead to an interesting job of almost two dozen Mega-Nobs in the same pose, it has still been pretty effective. I really only charge about 5 dollars per miniature, with slight discounts for larger box sets and whatnot (i.e. I'm painting the Death Masque box for my FLGS for 100$ and just finished their demo copy of Mantic's The Walking Dead skirmish game for 60$). Yes, these take quite a while, but I make it known that I have a family and a regular life and a full time job (which is where I get most of my painting done, ironically) and that a handful of models may take a few weeks. Regardless of how long it takes, I really only ever charge 5 dollars per mini for anything Terminator-sized and smaller, and then anything bigger, I usually do half of whatever the stock model cost on the GW or Mantic or whoever's webstore. Seeing people talk about charging 20$/hr for basic table top standard of one shadow and one highlight is mind boggling...
So if you charge $5 a model, how much does that work out per hour for you?
I was the one who said $20 an hour, not because that's what I charge but rather because that's what you'd have to pay me before I even consider doing a commission job and I'd STILL do something better value than BTP's high end stuff.
Realistically no matter how badly you paint you need to charge enough per hour to survive unless you're just doing it for fun and out of the kindness of your heart. Even a poorly painted model still takes me in the realm of 30 minutes to clean, assemble, paint and base, so I wouldn't expect anyone to charge less than half an hour's work at minimum wage unless its some kid living at home with their parents.
I see your point lol. Having seen some of BTP's stuff in the videos and various threads, I can't imagine paying hundreds for one of those models. I get that compensation is relative and necessary, but good grief. And yeah, it's just for some side money, but one can dream about doing it professionally
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Commission work seems pretty unnecessary to me overall, unless people have money to burn or want an especially beautiful paint job for a specific model. I don't like the idea of entire armies being commissioned out (mainly because of high price, time, and removing the artistic side of modelling) but that's just me.
That's just you. I see nothing wrong with paying people to do things to free up time. That's how business works.
I would never use BTP, as the owner appears kind slimy, the work product seems sub-par for what they promise, and the delivery time seems excessive.
However, if I ever won the lottery, you bet that I'd contract an artist to paint the bulk stuff!
As it happens, 3 of the more sophisticated painters at my FLGS offered to paint his stuff for him rather than see it go to BTP. They did up the Long Fangs and the Tacs in an afternoon, but I don't know what the plans are for the rest.
techsoldaten wrote: Someone at my FLGS is looking to get an army painted, he's considering sending it to Blue Table Painting.
They are asking for the price of a nice used car, but he likes the fact they are in the US and have a process where he can order models painted up to a certain level.
Does anyone still use them? If so, what experiences have you had?
I know a GW employee that took his forgeworld models or model to be worked on at BTP. Long story short they ruined it horribly. Money down the drain and i don't even know if he wants to use the expensive forgeworld models again. So my advice is don't use it or at least not for anything you don't want to lose. I don't know the end result myself but the guy that owns seems unbelievably sad about it and others that have seen it sound like they'd have been ticked seriously.
I wouldn't use them for painting. There are plenty of other commission painters that are willing to show their talent and build a portfolio. They usually have a much better record, better quality pictures of their work, and Dakka Tends to have reviews on people to keep tabs on. Frontline gaming does amazing work. Guy at my club had a Tau Riptide painted through them and it is stunning. Frontline also went WAY above and beyond and repainted Tenebre's Chaos dwarves army for free. They care about the gaming community, BTP doesnt.
£100 - character on foot
£450 - 10 man long fangs
£400 - 10 man grey hunters
£250 - dreadnought.
minimum, from sprue, to high end tabletop / 'studio army' sort of level.
with a turnaround of about 2 months, subject to schedule.
You'd get something nice, painted in my style, your choice of scheme and whatever else I can glean from my usual client head-probing. Erm... yes. Moving on.
Anything particularly odd would add to that cost.
That BTP Swarmlord is godawful for the money. I'd expect to put out close to 30-40 hours work for that, which I'd think would take a model like that up to almost competition grade work, and certainly something that would be at home in a display case. What's picture is just... gak. Sorry, but it's gak.
Which brings us to general evaluation:
I have seen NO 'good' work from BTP. The best I've seen I would describe as pretty basic tabletop. Stuff to pass muster at a con or tourney, but nothing I'd want to see in a display case.
Sorry if that offends folks that worked for them, but I've seen nothing I'd be happy putting out, and nothing I'd be happy to direct folks to pay for. I understand that budgets and set schemes can impact the work produced, so it's not necessarily a reflection on your personal talent, just the output of the company.
If you have an army that needs doing, I'd generally suggest Brandon / GMM studios (he's a member here).
He's very good, very fast, but has a significant queue, so there'll always be a wait. However, it's better to wait for a decent place to do the work than jump in to somewhere that just can't hack it.
winterdyne wrote: I have seen NO 'good' work from BTP. The best I've seen I would describe as pretty basic tabletop.
Exactly. BTP is premium price for mediocre work. If BTP cut their prices in half, and turned work in a reasonable timeframe, then they would be acceptable.
techsoldaten wrote: Someone at my FLGS is looking to get an army painted, he's considering sending it to Blue Table Painting.
They are asking for the price of a nice used car, but he likes the fact they are in the US and have a process where he can order models painted up to a certain level.
Does anyone still use them? If so, what experiences have you had?
Tell him not to use BTP. From everything I've seen and heard about them, it's just not worth the risk. At worst he'll find himself being over completely with his money and/or models being held to ransome, and at best he'll get charged premium prices for sub-premium product.
Seriously, all that stuff from the Eldar Titan and Chaos Dwarf incidents just exposed a lot of nasty stuff, with BTP's conduct being unethical and immoral at best, and downwright shady and fraudulent at worst.
There are plenty of other options. Tell him to use one of those, instead.
winterdyne wrote: That BTP Swarmlord is godawful for the money. I'd expect to put out close to 30-40 hours work for that, which I'd think would take a model like that up to almost competition grade work, and certainly something that would be at home in a display case. What's picture is just... gak. Sorry, but it's gak.
WTF. I went back to look at it, and I was about to post something like "it's not stunning, but it's still better than most people paint their own armies" in defense of it as a low-end tabletop job for a low-budget customer. And then I saw that BTP charged $500 for that.
Don't forget - back when the whole Chaos Dwarf Debacle was unfolding there was a Dakka member that decided to show everyone how wrong they were, and sent his Chaos marines off to Blue Table.
Sometimes telling somebody not to do something just makes them all the more likely to stick their finger in the light socket.
The Auld Grump - anyone surprised that I'm not surprised?
To give you some perspective: he is legally blind.
Ahh that makes sense then. Tabletop quality should suffice then. They can probably bang out a basic 1850-1999 point 40k army without breaking your budget as long as your friend doesnt ask for any crazy Swarmlord level conversions!
Good luck OP's friend!
One of my friends had a 2000 point Imperial Fists army painted (5th edition) by them a few years back for around $900. It wasn't bad by any means. He genuinely enjoys playing the army and has used it for years. His own painting skills caught up to the level his armies at - simple dip then highlight and base. I helped him rebase some of them with the Army Painter tufts. They seem to get a terrible reputation for any time they try and go past "Tabletop" Quality. For an army to get ready to game with? It's his decision and I'm excited to see pictures of his army!
TheAuldGrump wrote: Don't forget - back when the whole Chaos Dwarf Debacle was unfolding there was a Dakka member that decided to show everyone how wrong they were, and sent his Chaos marines off to Blue Table.
Oh yeah I remember that. What happened with that project in the end?
(Note: what they couldn't understand was that no amount of happy customers or success stories would excuse the treatment the Chaos Dwarf dude received or BTP's conduct, nor that the entire thread and situation was under close scrutiny by BTP therefore nullifying his endeavour to provide a control case study to compare against)
TheAuldGrump wrote: Don't forget - back when the whole Chaos Dwarf Debacle was unfolding there was a Dakka member that decided to show everyone how wrong they were, and sent his Chaos marines off to Blue Table.
Oh yeah I remember that. What happened with that project in the end?
(Note: what they couldn't understand was that no amount of happy customers or success stories would excuse the treatment the Chaos Dwarf dude received or BTP's conduct, nor that the entire thread and situation was under close scrutiny by BTP therefore nullifying his endeavour to provide a control case study to compare against)
I'm sure it turned out just fine, if only because the spotlight was on BTP.
And really, that's about the only way I'd use BTP, where they were put under the microscope and basically forced to perform to standard, at risk of the sort of negative publicity that would shut them down permanently.
If you're only paying for and expecting low end work, BTP don't look *terrible*. One big mistake the Chaos Dwarf guy made was he paid for high level jobs on it (I think 2nd highest or highest on a lot of stuff) and those levels just don't look good compared to other decent commission painters.
One thing I took out of BTP from the CD debacle (aside from how poorly BTP handled the case) was they don't show good images so people seem to get deceived. I can't necessarily call it false advertising, but they just don't zoom in far enough for a non-critical eye to realise even their high level stuff isn't actually all that great.
Bad models often look fine if you photograph them from far enough away and don't zoom in, at least to someone who's not paying close attention.
Just to clarify, the CD guy asked BTP what it would cost to paint to a certain spec that BTP had themselves shown as a sample army. The level of performance was very clear, and very clearly not up to spec. It's not like he just paid for an arbitrary level. BTP simply ignored what he had requested, after BTP had received his models and initial payment.
It's like walking onto a car dealer's lot, seeing a Corvette that's being prepped for delivery, and asking what it would cost to get the same car. The dealer says X, and defines the downpayment. You pay it, and a long time later, the dealer tells you that your "Corvette" is ready, and it's just a Malibu with a couple Corvette stickers taped to it. As opposed to the Corvette that you paid and signed for.
TheAuldGrump wrote: Don't forget - back when the whole Chaos Dwarf Debacle was unfolding there was a Dakka member that decided to show everyone how wrong they were, and sent his Chaos marines off to Blue Table.
Oh yeah I remember that. What happened with that project in the end?
(Note: what they couldn't understand was that no amount of happy customers or success stories would excuse the treatment the Chaos Dwarf dude received or BTP's conduct, nor that the entire thread and situation was under close scrutiny by BTP therefore nullifying his endeavour to provide a control case study to compare against)
I'm sure it turned out just fine, if only because the spotlight was on BTP.
And really, that's about the only way I'd use BTP, where they were put under the microscope and basically forced to perform to standard, at risk of the sort of negative publicity that would shut them down permanently.
Wasn't that the project where BTP charged him something like 40-50$ to add a pair of havoc launchers to hit rhinos?
TheAuldGrump wrote: Don't forget - back when the whole Chaos Dwarf Debacle was unfolding there was a Dakka member that decided to show everyone how wrong they were, and sent his Chaos marines off to Blue Table.
Oh yeah I remember that. What happened with that project in the end?
I'm sure it turned out just fine, if only because the spotlight was on BTP.
Wasn't that the project where BTP charged him something like 40-50$ to add a pair of havoc launchers to hit rhinos?
Wait, really? Anybody got a link? I didn't follow it. I just know it didn't blow up with a colossal feth-up.
TheAuldGrump wrote: Don't forget - back when the whole Chaos Dwarf Debacle was unfolding there was a Dakka member that decided to show everyone how wrong they were, and sent his Chaos marines off to Blue Table.
Oh yeah I remember that. What happened with that project in the end?
I'm sure it turned out just fine, if only because the spotlight was on BTP.
Wasn't that the project where BTP charged him something like 40-50$ to add a pair of havoc launchers to hit rhinos?
Wait, really? Anybody got a link? I didn't follow it. I just know it didn't blow up with a colossal feth-up.
M0ff3l wrote: I didnt really agree with the pricing on those conversions, 60$ is way too much just to replace hunter killer missiles with havoc launchers. But oh well, it saved me the trouble of sniping them from some online bits website and having to wait till they get here.
TheAuldGrump wrote: Don't forget - back when the whole Chaos Dwarf Debacle was unfolding there was a Dakka member that decided to show everyone how wrong they were, and sent his Chaos marines off to Blue Table.
Oh yeah I remember that. What happened with that project in the end?
I'm sure it turned out just fine, if only because the spotlight was on BTP.
Wasn't that the project where BTP charged him something like 40-50$ to add a pair of havoc launchers to hit rhinos?
Wait, really? Anybody got a link? I didn't follow it. I just know it didn't blow up with a colossal feth-up.
M0ff3l wrote: I didnt really agree with the pricing on those conversions, 60$ is way too much just to replace hunter killer missiles with havoc launchers. But oh well, it saved me the trouble of sniping them from some online bits website and having to wait till they get here.
Here's a link to the finished army. It looks fine, but for about $800 + $60 for the bits, I'm pretty disappointed.
Love the static grass clinging to the Nurgle Terminator's chest and legs. Nothing says "god of pestilence" like rogue grass springing from rotted flesh.
For $800 that paint work leaves a lot to be desired.
M0ff3l wrote: I didnt really agree with the pricing on those conversions, 60$ is way too much just to replace hunter killer missiles with havoc launchers. But oh well, it saved me the trouble of sniping them from some online bits website and having to wait till they get here.
jreilly89 wrote: Here's a link to the finished army. It looks fine, but for about $800 + $60 for the bits, I'm pretty disappointed.
My, my... M0ff3l, possibly the most expensive bit of White Knighting ever to grace the interwebs, eh? And what did it prove in the end? Nothing except what was said all along; at best, BTP advertise, promise and charge for premuim work and only deliver, well, non-premium results. Knowing that job was under the spotlight in the wake of CD scandal, and still delivering a paintjob that isn't special or noteworthy in any way is just futher damning evidence.
Well, TC's friend may well be perfectly satisfied with the results, but it doesn't change the fact that they've in all likelyhood overpaid, and could have gotten better/same service for the same/less money elsewhere, with considerably less risk. Oh well, people with more money than sense will always keep companies like BTP going.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Just to clarify, the CD guy asked BTP what it would cost to paint to a certain spec that BTP had themselves shown as a sample army. The level of performance was very clear, and very clearly not up to spec. It's not like he just paid for an arbitrary level. BTP simply ignored what he had requested, after BTP had received his models and initial payment.
It's like walking onto a car dealer's lot, seeing a Corvette that's being prepped for delivery, and asking what it would cost to get the same car. The dealer says X, and defines the downpayment. You pay it, and a long time later, the dealer tells you that your "Corvette" is ready, and it's just a Malibu with a couple Corvette stickers taped to it. As opposed to the Corvette that you paid and signed for.
I don't think BTP ever showed a high end job of their own work as a sample.
The CD had a lot of problems, one of which was models being painted to a lower level than what was paid for (which from memory they did admit pretty early in the piece), but another big problem was that the client had an overflated expectation of what the levels were.
I'm not sure if BTP still show images of their "levels", but back when the CD project was done, they did have pictures and they were all taken at a long enough distance that to the untrained eye they probably looked fine. But if you examined even the high levels closely, they really weren't that great even in the sample images.
So to use your car analogy, I think even the samples themselves were Malibus with a Corvette sticker taped on, BTP have never had Corvettes in their garage, they just have Malibus that they call Corvettes but they take photos from far enough away and with shaky enough video camera footage that the customer themselves if they're not paying attention might mistake the Malibu for a Corvette.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Just to clarify, the CD guy asked BTP what it would cost to paint to a certain spec that BTP had themselves shown as a sample army. The level of performance was very clear, and very clearly not up to spec. It's not like he just paid for an arbitrary level. BTP simply ignored what he had requested, after BTP had received his models and initial payment.
It's like walking onto a car dealer's lot, seeing a Corvette that's being prepped for delivery, and asking what it would cost to get the same car. The dealer says X, and defines the downpayment. You pay it, and a long time later, the dealer tells you that your "Corvette" is ready, and it's just a Malibu with a couple Corvette stickers taped to it. As opposed to the Corvette that you paid and signed for.
I don't think BTP ever showed a high end job of their own work as a sample.
The CD had a lot of problems, one of which was models being painted to a lower level than what was paid for (which from memory they did admit pretty early in the piece), but another big problem was that the client had an overflated expectation of what the levels were.
Also that BTP ignored his instructions for painting the army. IIRC his main request was 'more gore than a Saw film'. There was not a bit of gore on the models, but there was an airbrushed glow from the lava bases he did not ask for.
Painting to a lower standard than expected is one thing. Ignoring customer rquests and going rogue with how to paint them is something else.
It was really a whole heap of things that went in to the CD debacle, it wasn't just one or two things. The whole thing was a disaster of missed deadlines, poorly painted models, poor communication and not sufficiently trying to reconcile with the customer.
When it came to painting low end table top models on a budget BTP pricing never seemed horrible to me, not the best but also not unreasonable. From memory for the low levels they were charging prices that would imply they were spending an hour or less on a model and naturally the end result also looked like someone spent less than an hour on it
It was their high levels that seemed off, as the high levels were approaching prices that SHOULD be something that looked good but really they just looked like something an average painter could churn out in a couple of hours.
But it was their mismanagement and poor handling of complaints more than anything that makes me not recommend them.
Don't forget about them changing the levels during the Chaos Dwarf fiasco.
Short version: Dude orders a bunch of stuff at the top end of the spectrum, level 6 (they claim level 7 is Golden Demon winning). Gets a bunch of stuff at barely level 1-2 (Table top quality).
Dude goes on interwebs to show what happened.
Blue Table rewrites their levels after the fact so that now level 6 is table-top quality and the top level is 10.
This was either right after or right before they edited a bunch of the email correspondence to try to make dude look bad.
Blue Table Painting is like an umbrella in a cave, as shady as they get.
Did they ever actually claim that? A bit shady if they did, but anyone with eyes should be able to look at their pictures and see they've never at any point in time produced something that could compete for Golden Demon.
Did they ever actually claim that? A bit shady if they did, but anyone with eyes should be able to look at their pictures and see they've never at any point in time produced something that could compete for Golden Demon.
Yes, they did.
They conducted themselves as shady snake-oil salesmen throughout the entire fiasco. tenebre was being a lot more understanding and tolerant than BTP deserved, in my opinion. He was going out of his way to work out something fair and amicable while BTP were just ducking and weaving around the issue to keep hold of the marks - sorry, customers - money. What they did was practically fraud. False advertising certainly. They cared more about the fact that tenebre had uploaded a Youtube video and started the Dakka thread than actually addressing the customers legitimate complaints and making sure he was happy/satisfied.
I'd be shocked as hell if anyone in BTPs employ could ever win a Golden Demon. They're terrible. That Nurgle army is hideous. Not in a good Nurgle way either. I bet they love Ork and Nurgle commissions because they can justify
Their their gak sloppy job.
SlaveToDorkness wrote: I'd be shocked as hell if anyone in BTPs employ could ever win a Golden Demon. They're terrible. That Nurgle army is hideous. Not in a good Nurgle way either. I bet they love Ork and Nurgle commissions because they can justify
Their their gak sloppy job.
Well, you're looking at the two extremes, you can't use low level Ork and Nurgle armies as an example of whether or not they can paint golden demon standard, I don't think there's anyone in the world who'll paint you a golden demon standard model for $10 or whatever they charge for their low levels these days.
But I don't recall seeing anything in their high end lineup that was anywhere near golden demon standard either. It wasn't just one of those statements like "level 11 (or whatever) would be golden demon standard but we don't actually offer it"?
Did they ever actually claim that? A bit shady if they did, but anyone with eyes should be able to look at their pictures and see they've never at any point in time produced something that could compete for Golden Demon.
I believe they offered up to level 6, and the theoretical level 7 would be "golden deamon standard"
So while they never claimed they could (or at least that they wouldn't) paint to that level, if you ordered something painted to level 6 you could reasonably expect something close to award winning paintjobs.
Zywus wrote: I believe they offered up to level 6, and the theoretical level 7 would be "golden deamon standard"
So while they never claimed they could (or at least that they wouldn't) paint to that level, if you ordered something painted to level 6 you could reasonably expect something close to award winning paintjobs.
Ah ok, yeah I'm vaguely remembering that now.
But yeah, I distinctly remember images of the higher level stuff never looking all that great. So while they can SAY it's almost competition level, the evidence is in the pictures that it wasn't.
As with any business, the customer needs to be careful listening to marketing spin vs examining what the finished product will be.
The biggest thing that ever put me off BTP wasn't actually the quality or pricing, it was those videos that the owner put out, they just made the whole business look very shady to me.
sorry for the quality not able to do anythig else at this time.
Spoiler:
Sorry to hear that's how it turned out for you. Sometimes it does feel like western legal systems are stacked in favour of scumbags, my family had the unpleasant experience of a company trying to sink us under legal fees and at that point it becomes very hard to "win" even if you get the judges over to your side.
Above and beyond their painting quality and price it's their incredibly dodgy scummy behaviour that gets me trying to warn people away from BTP.
filbert wrote: Any chance of a quick text precis for those of us not able to view the video?
Basically BTP kept asking for continuations and tried to drown him in legal bills. Eventually they settled and would pay lawyer fees and the cost of the army, and were allowed to do so over two years with no interest on a payment plan. BTP then paid the bare minimum for lawyer fees and then stopped paying and ran away from being served. Eventually OP could go after assets but does not have the money to get into another legal battle so BTP gets off scot free
Uh, they did? BTP did the pieces for PB's GenCon unveiling and demo games. Go do some digging, they're what you'd expect. From BTP and PB, not for unveiling a game to the public, that is.
sorry for the quality not able to do anythig else at this time.
My gods. I cannot fathom it. He slips away again like the sneaky snake oil peddler he is.
Internet, you are warned, deal with Shawn Gately and Blue Table Painting at your own risk, the evidence presented here and elsewhere is... distinctly unfavorable.
If I ever meet anyone who says they are thinking about using blue table, I will show them this thread. And warn them away from it. And suggest some of the other commission painters. Blue table is absolutely worthless, they are cheats, and disgusting human beings. They should be ashamed of themselves and should leave the painting community permanently.
After reading this thread I have lost the sliver of faith I had left for humanity. Well done BTP!
But in a more on topic tone, I can not phanthom why these weasels still roam freely
sorry for the quality not able to do anythig else at this time.
Wow sounds like you got really screwed, sorry to hear. Will def tell people to stay away from BTP since this is far from the first bad things I've heard from them, but probably the worst.
filbert wrote: Any chance of a quick text precis for those of us not able to view the video?
Basically BTP kept asking for continuations and tried to drown him in legal bills. Eventually they settled and would pay lawyer fees and the cost of the army, and were allowed to do so over two years with no interest on a payment plan. BTP then paid the bare minimum for lawyer fees and then stopped paying and ran away from being served. Eventually OP could go after assets but does not have the money to get into another legal battle so BTP gets off scot free
Can you not ask for summary judgements in the U.S.? What a shame, start a gofundme, I'm sure the community will back you to go after this scumbag.
filbert wrote: Any chance of a quick text precis for those of us not able to view the video?
Basically BTP kept asking for continuations and tried to drown him in legal bills. Eventually they settled and would pay lawyer fees and the cost of the army, and were allowed to do so over two years with no interest on a payment plan. BTP then paid the bare minimum for lawyer fees and then stopped paying and ran away from being served. Eventually OP could go after assets but does not have the money to get into another legal battle so BTP gets off scot free
Can you not ask for summary judgements in the U.S.? What a shame, start a gofundme, I'm sure the community will back you to go after this scumbag.
yes... and I got one. But if they chose to to pay after this you still have to go back to the lawyers... as an individual its near impossible to force someone to pay.
Posted over on your Youtube, but man, what a scumbag. Sorry this happened to you, but thank you for making a video on how this all resolved. Hopefully people will no longer use BTP and understand the scam they run.
jreilly89 wrote: Posted over on your Youtube, but man, what a scumbag. Sorry this happened to you, but thank you for making a video on how this all resolved. Hopefully people will no longer use BTP and understand the scam they run.
Since he's gone from operating a large studio with gaming tables to what appears to be operating out of his lounge on his videos, I'd say this case has, along with other factors such as a divorce, given his business a hammering. Given that I've also watched some of his 'unique' ramblings on his other videos as Shawn Gately along with his stream of thought specials on his BTP youtube account, I doubt he perceives any of this as his fault or responsibility but rather the universe 'testing his resolve in his dream' or somesuch...
ie he's round the twist and anyone who has access to his history of smoke and mirrors and dubious business practice and still gives him money is similarly insane.
filbert wrote: Any chance of a quick text precis for those of us not able to view the video?
Basically BTP kept asking for continuations and tried to drown him in legal bills. Eventually they settled and would pay lawyer fees and the cost of the army, and were allowed to do so over two years with no interest on a payment plan. BTP then paid the bare minimum for lawyer fees and then stopped paying and ran away from being served. Eventually OP could go after assets but does not have the money to get into another legal battle so BTP gets off scot free
Can you not ask for summary judgements in the U.S.? What a shame, start a gofundme, I'm sure the community will back you to go after this scumbag.
yes... and I got one. But if they chose to to pay after this you still have to go back to the lawyers... as an individual its near impossible to force someone to pay.
Sorry this happened to you and yes, that is about what I know about the process of trying to get someone to pay. The moment you said payment plan, I was thinking you needed to put a lean on his house or some other tangible asset.
Trondheim wrote: After reading this thread I have lost the sliver of faith I had left for humanity. Well done BTP!
But in a more on topic tone, I can not phanthom why these weasels still roam freely
Because they're good at running away from people trying to serve them like the scumbag cowards they are.
curran12 wrote: I think we need to really go out and inform every possible site about this practice. This can't possibly stand.
If it's any consolation, the person mentioned in the original post has decided not to go forward with the project, in large part due to this thread. He decided the money would be better spent on a guitar.
I agree, something needs to be done. Daniel-Mandelbaum-style chicanery and predation should not be tolerated by a worldwide community of enthusiastic hobbyists, nor does it have to be. Shawn has had long enough to correct the problem and we should now be looking at collective action as a means of addressing this injustice.
Maybe a first step it to ask the mods to include a sticky warning in the Swap Shop about dealing with BTP? We could create a poll asking people if they would support such an action. This would get a good deal of exposure and perhaps cause Shawn to come to the table with tenebre.
A second action would be to call for a public boycott of Valhalla. It's an event organized by BTP that is enjoyed by some serious gamers, but it comes at the expense of people like tenebre. Perhaps we go forward with a public awareness campaign to alert people about the relationship between the event and the actions of it's host. While this may not impact who attends, it may affect who publicizes their attendance.
A third action might be to do a comment campaign, where a bunch of people comment on everything Shawn does asking when he's going to pay the judgement laid against him. Shawn is a public figure who uses social media as a means of conducting business, negative comments from a lot of people together would be very hard for him to run away from.
Well, I've started a thread on MWG's site, maybe if we can get a lot of posts there, it will help to spread the word? I like the idea of a call to boycott Valhalla, and mass campaign of making sure that this doesn't just slither away and die.
How much money woul tenebre need to go down the asset siezing route? Is thsr something we could crowdfund? I'd hate for this guy to think he's getting away with anything
sorry for the quality not able to do anythig else at this time.
Oh good god man. I followed the whole sad adventure with BTP (and what...50+ pages on that thread?) but was pleased that at the end, it seemed you had at least gotten closure on this and the community stepping up to bring that army to a good place. To find out you actually didn't even have that satisfaction of settlement and he's literally running away from his own legal agreements is a huge disappointment =/
Are you guys paying him? You should tell him you'll be paying his services directly to Tenebre so that the funds are going to the guy who rightfully deserves them! Shawn is a scumbag who deserves nothing but contempt. +1 to the gofundme thing!!
timetowaste85 wrote: Are you guys paying him? You should tell him you'll be paying his services directly to Tenebre so that the funds are going to the guy who rightfully deserves them! Shawn is a scumbag who deserves nothing but contempt. +1 to the gofundme thing!!
No. And whether or not we were, I'm not going to listen to some internet gunslinger on what I should be doing with my money.
I have no horse in this fight, I was just simply clarifying an incorrect statement that someone had made earlier.
Herzlos wrote: How much money woul tenebre need to go down the asset siezing route? Is thsr something we could crowdfund? I'd hate for this guy to think he's getting away with anything
I'm sure these suggestions were made, but it seems they were taken down for being unhelpful or inappropriate. I guess someone didn't like the idea.
Herzlos wrote: How much money woul tenebre need to go down the asset siezing route? Is thsr something we could crowdfund? I'd hate for this guy to think he's getting away with anything
I'm sure these suggestions were made, but it seems they were taken down for being unhelpful or inappropriate. I guess someone didn't like the idea.
The comments I've seen taken down were along the lines of 'well you could always get your money back off them by other means *wink**wink* *nudge**nudge* *totally not being clever*, not necessarily about proposing a crowdfund effort.
Yeah, Shawn is a Scumbag. He lost most of his painters too actually, that is something he wont tell you. Its down to a few "Interns" from what I hear from former painters.
He is a loon who believes he is revolutionizing the painting industry. Not someone who is scamming people out of their money.
techsoldaten wrote: Maybe a first step it to ask the mods to include a sticky warning in the Swap Shop about dealing with BTP? We could create a poll asking people if they would support such an action. This would get a good deal of exposure and perhaps cause Shawn to come to the table with tenebre.
Dakka should avoid taking any position on it as it would open themselves up to defamation lawsuits for lost business. As long as Dakka is simply the home of reviews and comments from a 3rd party (us) they are protected and it's largely impractical for BTP to chase up individual posters.
Short of a sticky warning, maybe try renaming the title of this thread to make it a warning? If its active enough it'll be bumped up to the front page regularly so people will see it regardless.
"Blue Table Painting" doesn't give any indication of a negative experience and people currently thinking of hiring them or who hire them in future might skip over the thread.
"Do not trust BTP" or "BTP: A warning" is more informative and stands out better.
timetowaste85 wrote: Are you guys paying him? You should tell him you'll be paying his services directly to Tenebre so that the funds are going to the guy who rightfully deserves them! Shawn is a scumbag who deserves nothing but contempt. +1 to the gofundme thing!!
No. And whether or not we were, I'm not going to listen to some internet gunslinger on what I should be doing with my money.
I have no horse in this fight, I was just simply clarifying an incorrect statement that someone had made earlier.
I appreciate you for clearing that up. Knowing that the fictional story posted on the official company blog is actually a fictional story related to a game, and not simple fan fiction, does clarify things a great deal.
With regards to taking guidance from gunslingers on the web on how to spend your money, yeah, other people's opinions don't matter. Good for you standing up for yourself!
techsoldaten wrote: Maybe a first step it to ask the mods to include a sticky warning in the Swap Shop about dealing with BTP? We could create a poll asking people if they would support such an action. This would get a good deal of exposure and perhaps cause Shawn to come to the table with tenebre.
Dakka should avoid taking any position on it as it would open themselves up to defamation lawsuits for lost business. As long as Dakka is simply the home of reviews and comments from a 3rd party (us) they are protected and it's largely impractical for BTP to chase up individual posters.
I understand about safe harbor and all, but there is precedent with Daniel Mandelbaum. I am not sure it's in Shawn's capacity or interest to sue dakkadakka.com, and think the Streisand effect would probably end such an effort quickly.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Short of a sticky warning, maybe try renaming the title of this thread to make it a warning? If its active enough it'll be bumped up to the front page regularly so people will see it regardless.
"Blue Table Painting" doesn't give any indication of a negative experience and people currently thinking of hiring them or who hire them in future might skip over the thread.
"Do not trust BTP" or "BTP: A warning" is more informative and stands out better.
Thinking something more elaborate may be in order.
I did some horizon research and, yes, it's hard to find threads with warnings about BTP compared to a year ago. The fact casual Internet users are able to find them without any kind of an alert coming up is challenging. Atrophy is a thing, it's only people's interest that keeps things high in search engine rankings.
Maybe we all change our signatures to warn people, so the warning goes out in every post we make on the site? This would have a bigger effect than a single thread and dakka would certainly be protected against safe harbor provisions as it is user generated content.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Checking my new signature...
A second action would be to call for a public boycott of Valhalla. It's an event organized by BTP that is enjoyed by some serious gamers, but it comes at the expense of people like tenebre. Perhaps we go forward with a public awareness campaign to alert people about the relationship between the event and the actions of it's host. While this may not impact who attends, it may affect who publicizes their attendance.
I thought Wargamergirl organised and hosted Valhalla this year
techsoldaten wrote: Maybe a first step it to ask the mods to include a sticky warning in the Swap Shop about dealing with BTP? We could create a poll asking people if they would support such an action. This would get a good deal of exposure and perhaps cause Shawn to come to the table with tenebre.
Dakka should avoid taking any position on it as it would open themselves up to defamation lawsuits for lost business. As long as Dakka is simply the home of reviews and comments from a 3rd party (us) they are protected and it's largely impractical for BTP to chase up individual posters.
I understand about safe harbor and all, but there is precedent with Daniel Mandelbaum.
When doing something unwise, stating you've done something before that set a precedence is hardly a good defence And in the case of Daniel Mandelbaum, I believe he was setting up companies under false names, so it's not really comparable to the current situation.
A lawyery friend of mine casually pointed out while discussing something else that it's best to stay out of the line of fire when it comes to something that may affect someone's income.
I am not sure it's in Shawn's capacity or interest to sue dakkadakka.com, and think the Streisand effect would probably end such an effort quickly.
That doesn't make it a good idea for Dakka to poke the bear. If Dakka starts posting stuff, editing posts or sticky'ing posts it puts them in the line of fire and when someone (like BTP) is put up against a wall that affects them financially they may lash out and really it'd be a lose-lose situation for Dakka.
The smart thing to do is just avoid putting yourself in a position where you can have claims of defamation levelled at you rather than trying to stand on principle and getting caught in the crossfire.
If the community wants to take down BTP through forum posts/threads, youtube, facebook, manipulating google searches, let the community do it.
Probably the best thing Dakka could do is put up an unbiased "post your reviews of BTP here" thread, but that may not have the negative effect you expect it to have because there's still plenty of happy BTP fans and customers out there.
Probably the best thing Dakka could do is put up an unbiased "post your reviews of BTP here" thread, but that may not have the negative effect you expect it to have because there's still plenty of happy BTP fans and customers out there.
This thread itself is a good example of that. OP asks about Blue Table for a buddy, is warned against them, buddy still uses them.
Probably the best thing Dakka could do is put up an unbiased "post your reviews of BTP here" thread, but that may not have the negative effect you expect it to have because there's still plenty of happy BTP fans and customers out there.
This thread itself is a good example of that. OP asks about Blue Table for a buddy, is warned against them, buddy still uses them.
Pretty much.
They have a lot of loyal customers. This will certainly hurt their business, no doubt. Generating new customers will definitely face hurdles now. I have a friend whose given them probably close to $20,000 over the years though, and plans on continuing to use their services.
This is a black eye for Shawn, I definitely agree with that. As we all know though, there are three sides to a story, and we only know one of them. I'm not at all discounting the guy, to me, it seems he was done dirty, but starting internet crusades when you don't know everything is never good business, and I doubt we'll see Dakka as an official entity, get behind it.
A second action would be to call for a public boycott of Valhalla. It's an event organized by BTP that is enjoyed by some serious gamers, but it comes at the expense of people like tenebre. Perhaps we go forward with a public awareness campaign to alert people about the relationship between the event and the actions of it's host. While this may not impact who attends, it may affect who publicizes their attendance.
I thought Wargamergirl organised and hosted Valhalla this year
Probably the best thing Dakka could do is put up an unbiased "post your reviews of BTP here" thread, but that may not have the negative effect you expect it to have because there's still plenty of happy BTP fans and customers out there.
This thread itself is a good example of that. OP asks about Blue Table for a buddy, is warned against them, buddy still uses them.
Pretty much.
They have a lot of loyal customers. This will certainly hurt their business, no doubt. Generating new customers will definitely face hurdles now. I have a friend whose given them probably close to $20,000 over the years though, and plans on continuing to use their services.
This is a black eye for Shawn, I definitely agree with that. As we all know though, there are three sides to a story, and we only know one of them. I'm not at all discounting the guy, to me, it seems he was done dirty, but starting internet crusades when you don't know everything is never good business, and I doubt we'll see Dakka as an official entity, get behind it.
I'm disinclined to say there's another side to this story. Tenebre put up his pictures and video evidence of the models and the correspondence, I can think of at least one other thread with similar pictures, correspondence, etc., and I know if I tried I could find more negative reviews of BTP. I'm not saying the guy hasn't made some people happy, but the price to quality ratio is way out of whack.
Probably the best thing Dakka could do is put up an unbiased "post your reviews of BTP here" thread, but that may not have the negative effect you expect it to have because there's still plenty of happy BTP fans and customers out there.
This thread itself is a good example of that. OP asks about Blue Table for a buddy, is warned against them, buddy still uses them.
I'm pretty sure in the end the buddy chose not to use them.
Shawn just reeks of charlatanism to me, I've tried to watch some of his videos and I just can't, he just comes across as untrustworthy. But that's just me judging a book by its cover. I wonder if it's an American thing though because that super happy excited hyper energy thing seems to be a common advertising tactic over there, for me it mostly just raises my suspicions of a person/company
jreilly89 wrote: I'm disinclined to say there's another side to this story. Tenebre put up his pictures and video evidence of the models and the correspondence, I can think of at least one other thread with similar pictures, correspondence, etc., and I know if I tried I could find more negative reviews of BTP. I'm not saying the guy hasn't made some people happy, but the price to quality ratio is way out of whack.
Saying there is not another side means no one is ever right or wrong, and the world is just a series of random events we react to.
People should not rush to judgement against Shawn. He and the rest of the artists at Blue Table Painting most definitely deserve the opportunity to weigh in on the matter.
I speculated in previous threads about the likelihood tenebre never understood Shawn as a legitimate visionary reinventing how we think about miniatures and beauty. The initial shock over encountering the avant garde is something tenebre never got over, and Shawn choosing to settle could be considered the desperate act of a creator seeking an end to the harassment. His actions in avoiding officers of the court is in line with those of other free thinkers who found themselves on the wrong side of some issue for the sake of something greater.
Since I started investigating this affair, the gallery on this forum has become a subject of great interest. It helps me to understand the growth of the influence the table blue les fauves style beyond what the Blue Table Painting team is able to produce. Every day, I see examples of more and more painters grappling with the challenges this new style poses, such as these:
The painters who embrace this style dare to explore the boundaries of taste and quality instead of slavishly devoting themselves to outmoded concepts pushed by the uninspired hacks at GW (looking at you, Duncan.) While none of them quite reach the level of the work of Blue Table Painting, I often look at a model and ask myself "could BTP really have done better?" The differences between BTP's work and examples like these is often hard to spot.
The fact Blue Table Painting is able to influence a community this way - by expanding personal / creative boundaries to reject styles that are merely satisfying - puts them in an echelon where you really can't judge the acts of the leader of the movement. Just trying to presumes you know where this path takes us, when the reality is only people like Shawn can see it
Probably the best thing Dakka could do is put up an unbiased "post your reviews of BTP here" thread, but that may not have the negative effect you expect it to have because there's still plenty of happy BTP fans and customers out there.
This thread itself is a good example of that. OP asks about Blue Table for a buddy, is warned against them, buddy still uses them.
Pretty much.
They have a lot of loyal customers. This will certainly hurt their business, no doubt. Generating new customers will definitely face hurdles now. I have a friend whose given them probably close to $20,000 over the years though, and plans on continuing to use their services.
This is a black eye for Shawn, I definitely agree with that. As we all know though, there are three sides to a story, and we only know one of them. I'm not at all discounting the guy, to me, it seems he was done dirty, but starting internet crusades when you don't know everything is never good business, and I doubt we'll see Dakka as an official entity, get behind it.
A second action would be to call for a public boycott of Valhalla. It's an event organized by BTP that is enjoyed by some serious gamers, but it comes at the expense of people like tenebre. Perhaps we go forward with a public awareness campaign to alert people about the relationship between the event and the actions of it's host. While this may not impact who attends, it may affect who publicizes their attendance.
I thought Wargamergirl organised and hosted Valhalla this year
That she did.
Yeah you might be right (and that is a long shot) if this was an isolated incident. There have been countless horror stories from BTP in recent memory that fit the same narrative, shawn screws over X by not providing what he promised or gives a low quality product.
Probably the best thing Dakka could do is put up an unbiased "post your reviews of BTP here" thread, but that may not have the negative effect you expect it to have because there's still plenty of happy BTP fans and customers out there.
This thread itself is a good example of that. OP asks about Blue Table for a buddy, is warned against them, buddy still uses them.
I'm pretty sure in the end the buddy chose not to use them.
Probably the best thing Dakka could do is put up an unbiased "post your reviews of BTP here" thread, but that may not have the negative effect you expect it to have because there's still plenty of happy BTP fans and customers out there.
This thread itself is a good example of that. OP asks about Blue Table for a buddy, is warned against them, buddy still uses them.
I'm pretty sure in the end the buddy chose not to use them.
jreilly89 wrote: I'm disinclined to say there's another side to this story. Tenebre put up his pictures and video evidence of the models and the correspondence, I can think of at least one other thread with similar pictures, correspondence, etc., and I know if I tried I could find more negative reviews of BTP. I'm not saying the guy hasn't made some people happy, but the price to quality ratio is way out of whack.
Saying there is not another side means no one is ever right or wrong, and the world is just a series of random events we react to.
People should not rush to judgement against Shawn. He and the rest of the artists at Blue Table Painting most definitely deserve the opportunity to weigh in on the matter.
I speculated in previous threads about the likelihood tenebre never understood Shawn as a legitimate visionary reinventing how we think about miniatures and beauty. The initial shock over encountering the avant garde is something tenebre never got over, and Shawn choosing to settle could be considered the desperate act of a creator seeking an end to the harassment. His actions in avoiding officers of the court is in line with those of other free thinkers who found themselves on the wrong side of some issue for the sake of something greater.
Since I started investigating this affair, the gallery on this forum has become a subject of great interest. It helps me to understand the growth of the influence the table blue les fauves style beyond what the Blue Table Painting team is able to produce. Every day, I see examples of more and more painters grappling with the challenges this new style poses, such as these:
The painters who embrace this style dare to explore the boundaries of taste and quality instead of slavishly devoting themselves to outmoded concepts pushed by the uninspired hacks at GW (looking at you, Duncan.) While none of them quite reach the level of the work of Blue Table Painting, I often look at a model and ask myself "could BTP really have done better?" The differences between BTP's work and examples like these is often hard to spot.
The fact Blue Table Painting is able to influence a community this way - by expanding personal / creative boundaries to reject styles that are merely satisfying - puts them in an echelon where you really can't judge the acts of the leader of the movement. Just trying to presumes you know where this path takes us, when the reality is only people like Shawn can see it
Wow, kinda gakky to post images of members work to not-so-slyly make fun of them.
Floating staff idea was good at least. It'll break during shipping and the staff looks crappy, but it was an interesting idea. Literally the only good thing I can think of mentioning about this.
jreilly89 wrote: I'm disinclined to say there's another side to this story. Tenebre put up his pictures and video evidence of the models and the correspondence, I can think of at least one other thread with similar pictures, correspondence, etc., and I know if I tried I could find more negative reviews of BTP. I'm not saying the guy hasn't made some people happy, but the price to quality ratio is way out of whack.
Saying there is not another side means no one is ever right or wrong, and the world is just a series of random events we react to.
People should not rush to judgement against Shawn. He and the rest of the artists at Blue Table Painting most definitely deserve the opportunity to weigh in on the matter.
I speculated in previous threads about the likelihood tenebre never understood Shawn as a legitimate visionary reinventing how we think about miniatures and beauty. The initial shock over encountering the avant garde is something tenebre never got over, and Shawn choosing to settle could be considered the desperate act of a creator seeking an end to the harassment. His actions in avoiding officers of the court is in line with those of other free thinkers who found themselves on the wrong side of some issue for the sake of something greater.
Since I started investigating this affair, the gallery on this forum has become a subject of great interest. It helps me to understand the growth of the influence the table blue les fauves style beyond what the Blue Table Painting team is able to produce. Every day, I see examples of more and more painters grappling with the challenges this new style poses, such as these:
The painters who embrace this style dare to explore the boundaries of taste and quality instead of slavishly devoting themselves to outmoded concepts pushed by the uninspired hacks at GW (looking at you, Duncan.) While none of them quite reach the level of the work of Blue Table Painting, I often look at a model and ask myself "could BTP really have done better?" The differences between BTP's work and examples like these is often hard to spot.
The fact Blue Table Painting is able to influence a community this way - by expanding personal / creative boundaries to reject styles that are merely satisfying - puts them in an echelon where you really can't judge the acts of the leader of the movement. Just trying to presumes you know where this path takes us, when the reality is only people like Shawn can see it
jreilly89 wrote: I'm disinclined to say there's another side to this story. Tenebre put up his pictures and video evidence of the models and the correspondence, I can think of at least one other thread with similar pictures, correspondence, etc., and I know if I tried I could find more negative reviews of BTP. I'm not saying the guy hasn't made some people happy, but the price to quality ratio is way out of whack.
Saying there is not another side means no one is ever right or wrong, and the world is just a series of random events we react to.
People should not rush to judgement against Shawn. He and the rest of the artists at Blue Table Painting most definitely deserve the opportunity to weigh in on the matter.
I speculated in previous threads about the likelihood tenebre never understood Shawn as a legitimate visionary reinventing how we think about miniatures and beauty. The initial shock over encountering the avant garde is something tenebre never got over, and Shawn choosing to settle could be considered the desperate act of a creator seeking an end to the harassment. His actions in avoiding officers of the court is in line with those of other free thinkers who found themselves on the wrong side of some issue for the sake of something greater.
Since I started investigating this affair, the gallery on this forum has become a subject of great interest. It helps me to understand the growth of the influence the table blue les fauves style beyond what the Blue Table Painting team is able to produce. Every day, I see examples of more and more painters grappling with the challenges this new style poses, such as these:
The painters who embrace this style dare to explore the boundaries of taste and quality instead of slavishly devoting themselves to outmoded concepts pushed by the uninspired hacks at GW (looking at you, Duncan.) While none of them quite reach the level of the work of Blue Table Painting, I often look at a model and ask myself "could BTP really have done better?" The differences between BTP's work and examples like these is often hard to spot.
The fact Blue Table Painting is able to influence a community this way - by expanding personal / creative boundaries to reject styles that are merely satisfying - puts them in an echelon where you really can't judge the acts of the leader of the movement. Just trying to presumes you know where this path takes us, when the reality is only people like Shawn can see it
A major difference - those folks are painting for themselves - not charging money to ignore the instructions that the customer had given them.
Calling out these people, to show their weaknesses, is not kosher, even if it was intended as a dig at BTP.
I no longer have the Minifig Prussians that were my first efforts at miniatures painting - but I am pretty sure that they were not excellent examples of skillfully used techniques. For that matter, the sculpts themselves were not so great (lead, and sold by the bag), miniature sculpting has come a long way. And I was eleven years old when I painted them
TheAuldGrump wrote: I no longer have the Minifig Prussians that were my first efforts at miniatures painting - but I am pretty sure that they were not excellent examples of skillfully used techniques. For that matter, the sculpts themselves were not so great (lead, and sold by the bag), miniature sculpting has come a long way. And I was eleven years old when I painted them
The Auld Grump
We all start as 0 level painters. I still have a Grenadier Miniatures Goblin that I painted as a kid. One of my first painting attempts. Here it is, under spoiler, next to a more recent paint job.
Spoiler:
I may have improved a wee bit.
It takes a bit of courage for someone who is still developing their skills to post their work. I, for one, respect and admire those who do post their work. Help them improve by making constructive suggestions.
At one point this fellow Shawn was going to sell the business?
BTP was up for sale at one point. The problem is that BTP really has no assets other than labor and some rented space they used as a paint studio (term used loosely). There was nothing of value other than the name and their name wasn't worth anything, much less anywhere near their asking price.
Wow, kinda gakky to post images of members work to not-so-slyly make fun of them.
Glad I'm not the only one who thought that.
You are not - do NOT post things like this going forward, as they really are against RULE #1 here.
I have no desire to make fun of other painters, nor was I doing so in this thread. The items I highlighted simply illustrate the critique of style and mean nothing more.
As far as the comment about glass houses goes... I never claimed to be a good painter or sell my painting skills as a service. The analogy is invalid.
At one point this fellow Shawn was going to sell the business?
Probably wanted something ridiculous like a hundred grand.
Didn't Shawn list a Patreon award of $10,000 for a few days of painting lessons and guided tours round BTP?
Yes, there was a Patreon award for all that and professional coaching.
Entrepreneurs tend to overestimate the value of their enterprise, it's human nature. That said, had he been able to roll out a clothing line, a tutorial / batrep channel, some kind of starter army product, and maintain a successful Patreon, the calculation may have been different.
Can't help but wonder how those plans were impacted by the business tactics. Transforming a services business into something more requires goodwill and high reputation.
Wow, kinda gakky to post images of members work to not-so-slyly make fun of them.
Glad I'm not the only one who thought that.
You are not - do NOT post things like this going forward, as they really are against RULE #1 here.
I have no desire to make fun of other painters, nor was I doing so in this thread. The items I highlighted simply illustrate the critique of style and mean nothing more.
As far as the comment about glass houses goes... I never claimed to be a good painter or sell my painting skills as a service. The analogy is invalid.
That breaks down because BTP does claim to be good painters, and does sell their skills as a painting service.
By calling out the flaws in the work of people that are not doing so, it appeared that you were saying that it was alright that BTP was selling, well, crappy paint jobs.
Yes, the works you linked to are worse - but they are also not the works of people that call themselves professionals.
As such, they should not be held to the same standards as a company that is selling their painting services.
It is okay if Bob The Bad Blobber paints poorly, it is not okay if Robert the Professional Paint Master produces work that is only marginally better than that of Bob the Bad Blobber and charges money for it.
If I burn the pancakes that i am making for breakfast, then, while is a sign that I may not be the greatest of chefs, it really does not matter. If Waffle House burns the pancakes and sells them to you anyway then it is a different matter.
And if you asked for blueberry waffles, and they served you burned pancakes... then they deserve criticism.
The Chaos Dwarfs are a case in point - BTP disregarded what the customer asked for, and then tried to refuse giving a refund for work that was neither as requested nor a good paint job.
Not the same as Bob the Bad Blobber buying a space marine for his own use, and screwing up the paint job.
BTP deserves mockery, Bob the Bad Blobber does not.
at this point i need it to pursue... only need $1000 to continue.
Problem is .. you all get nothing out of it so i feel like a douche for even starting it.
If you (the community) are in support of it i will throw one up today. I just dont want to look like a mooch. The vents of the past 2 years have left me in a financial state that i can not support my hobby let alone lawsuits.
You're not a mooch, and people aren't supporting you entirely out of altruism, there is an element of self interest. Conmen like Shawn are a blight on the industry and the hobby, and someone needs to hold him accountable for the good of everyone.
Wow, kinda gakky to post images of members work to not-so-slyly make fun of them.
Glad I'm not the only one who thought that.
You are not - do NOT post things like this going forward, as they really are against RULE #1 here.
I have no desire to make fun of other painters, nor was I doing so in this thread. The items I highlighted simply illustrate the critique of style and mean nothing more.
As far as the comment about glass houses goes... I never claimed to be a good painter or sell my painting skills as a service. The analogy is invalid.
Provided the sale is £100 - £30,000 in value, your credit card provider is equally liable for the delivery of the goods or service.
However, it is important to point out a limitation - Section 75 does not work if you paid via PayPal. I'll avoid technical borings, but essentially it breaks the necessary chain.
PayPal of course have their own protections built in, but it tends to be more limited than Section 75.
That breaks down because BTP does claim to be good painters, and does sell their skills as a painting service.
By calling out the flaws in the work of people that are not doing so, it appeared that you were saying that it was alright that BTP was selling, well, crappy paint jobs.
Yes, the works you linked to are worse - but they are also not the works of people that call themselves professionals.
As such, they should not be held to the same standards as a company that is selling their painting services.
It is okay if Bob The Bad Blobber paints poorly, it is not okay if Robert the Professional Paint Master produces work that is only marginally better than that of Bob the Bad Blobber and charges money for it.
If I burn the pancakes that i am making for breakfast, then, while is a sign that I may not be the greatest of chefs, it really does not matter. If Waffle House burns the pancakes and sells them to you anyway then it is a different matter.
And if you asked for blueberry waffles, and they served you burned pancakes... then they deserve criticism.
The Chaos Dwarfs are a case in point - BTP disregarded what the customer asked for, and then tried to refuse giving a refund for work that was neither as requested nor a good paint job.
Not the same as Bob the Bad Blobber buying a space marine for his own use, and screwing up the paint job.
BTP deserves mockery, Bob the Bad Blobber does not.
The Auld Grump
Well, @TheAuldGrump, you and I have gone back and forth on this board enough times over the years, you must know me to be sincere by now. All I can say is everything in your message is consistent with my observations about the style, table bleue les fauves exemplifies the people's art without the elistist penchants of gallery painters. The fact this new and emerging style is not appreciated has more to do with the perspective of the viewer that anything I can control. All I can really do is speak to it's merits.
I don't like quoting myself in posts, but were you to refer to my previous posts on the subject you would find I am making most of the same points in your message. The only thing I don't do is cast judgement on the miniatures cited in this thread, which (as you point out) are not meant to be commission pieces. You are right to point out that Blue Table Painting is a commercial service. The point that's more challenging to grasp is the magic in their work is the way they obscure the lines between professional and hobbyist, such that the viewer can not always discern the difference upon casual observation.
Table bleue les fauves is a radical departure from what we have been instructed to think of as quality and (re)introduces characteristics only seen in the work of the most inexperienced painters and modelers. The fact it's hard to distinguish from the raw, expressive, passionate work of people with introductory skills speaks to the cleverness and insight of the Blue Table Painting process that people seem to have a lot of difficulty with. Their work is a puzzle that challenges the viewer to solve it, instead of a complex representation meant to visualize some fantasy. This faux-fessional approach itself is hard to grasp, as any new style would be.
If comparisons within the community draw such ire, perhaps we should look to the greats to find examples of others reinventing the medium. I have spent a lot of time at Kunsthaus Zürich with the works of Alberto Giacometti, a giant in the field of modern art. When you look at his work, you notice a lot of parallels with modern tabletop wargaming: it's based, it's representative of it's subject, it's often squad based in how it's presented, and it's often presented in diorama. Unlike modern gaming, it's expressive and meant to convey an understanding of something more than the literal object, and does more for the viewer by not trying to be representational. I come away from my encounters with his work having an sense of existential dread, a feeling that the pressures of modern society reduce men to something else in the same way they did in his day.
Giacommeti was revolutionary in the same way Blue Table Painting was with the Chaos Dwarves project. The things said about Giacommettit in his day were similarly polemical and polarizing. He did his work at a time of great technological, social and political change, as the ones we live in now. The popular styles of the day were more classic and representational, with Art Deco leading the way in sculpture and architecture, along with Bauhaus and others. The point is, artists of the day were looking to reinvent what we understand as art, and there were competing visions, and not all of them were very well understood. The volcanic, reductionary figures depicted in his work are similar to what we see from BTP, only without the heroic proportions we see in GW miniatures and without having to work in the constraints of the commission painting model.
The genius of table bleue les fauves is that it can be indistinguishable from the execution of even the most basic, untrained painters, while still being something they get paid for. tenebre made a good case for this in his video, but I will highlight some of the characteristics of the style he described again.
* Overspraying, a technique BTP has championed for years, despite the fact most painters consider it garish and incapable of delivering quality results.
* The conspicuous use of mold lines.
* The liberal use of raw undercoat to create consistency between shadows and the exposed details on the model
* The monohue skin tones applied by airbrush in a manner similar to what you could expect from an exploding bag of flour
* The ethereal lighting techniques that occur independently of the object
* The absence of other techniques more commonly applied by so-called expert painters, or the non-uniform application of them, such as basecoats that cover the model, shading / glazing techniques, drybrushing, highlights, extreme highlights, accents / details, etc.
I look at these qualities and ask myself if it's possible to really call BTP a miniature painting service. They occupy a different space and their stylistic advances must be considered as departures from a tired norm begging to be reinvented. The fact there are so many customers willing to do business with them is evidence of both of the commercial and artistic integrity, and ignoring the impact they have had on the sector is hard to do.
Thanks techsoldaten, that's an excellent second take, there's zero potential for DakkaDakka #1 rule breach and the satyre is really beautiful.
It may be because I was exposed to your first post, but this one seems slightly less believable, although very cleverly resembling true art critique style.
That breaks down because BTP does claim to be good painters, and does sell their skills as a painting service.
By calling out the flaws in the work of people that are not doing so, it appeared that you were saying that it was alright that BTP was selling, well, crappy paint jobs.
Yes, the works you linked to are worse - but they are also not the works of people that call themselves professionals.
As such, they should not be held to the same standards as a company that is selling their painting services.
It is okay if Bob The Bad Blobber paints poorly, it is not okay if Robert the Professional Paint Master produces work that is only marginally better than that of Bob the Bad Blobber and charges money for it.
If I burn the pancakes that i am making for breakfast, then, while is a sign that I may not be the greatest of chefs, it really does not matter. If Waffle House burns the pancakes and sells them to you anyway then it is a different matter.
And if you asked for blueberry waffles, and they served you burned pancakes... then they deserve criticism.
The Chaos Dwarfs are a case in point - BTP disregarded what the customer asked for, and then tried to refuse giving a refund for work that was neither as requested nor a good paint job.
Not the same as Bob the Bad Blobber buying a space marine for his own use, and screwing up the paint job.
BTP deserves mockery, Bob the Bad Blobber does not.
The Auld Grump
Well, @TheAuldGrump, you and I have gone back and forth on this board enough times over the years, you must know me to be sincere by now. All I can say is everything in your message is consistent with my observations about the style, table bleue les fauves exemplifies the people's art without the elistist penchants of gallery painters. The fact this new and emerging style is not appreciated has more to do with the perspective of the viewer that anything I can control. All I can really do is speak to it's merits.
I don't like quoting myself in posts, but were you to refer to my previous posts on the subject you would find I am making most of the same points in your message. The only thing I don't do is cast judgement on the miniatures cited in this thread, which (as you point out) are not meant to be commission pieces. You are right to point out that Blue Table Painting is a commercial service. The point that's more challenging to grasp is the magic in their work is the way they obscure the lines between professional and hobbyist, such that the viewer can not always discern the difference upon casual observation.
Table bleue les fauves is a radical departure from what we have been instructed to think of as quality and (re)introduces characteristics only seen in the work of the most inexperienced painters and modelers. The fact it's hard to distinguish from the raw, expressive, passionate work of people with introductory skills speaks to the cleverness and insight of the Blue Table Painting process that people seem to have a lot of difficulty with. Their work is a puzzle that challenges the viewer to solve it, instead of a complex representation meant to visualize some fantasy. This faux-fessional approach itself is hard to grasp, as any new style would be.
If comparisons within the community draw such ire, perhaps we should look to the greats to find examples of others reinventing the medium. I have spent a lot of time at Kunsthaus Zürich with the works of Alberto Giacometti, a giant in the field of modern art. When you look at his work, you notice a lot of parallels with modern tabletop wargaming: it's based, it's representative of it's subject, it's often squad based in how it's presented, and it's often presented in diorama. Unlike modern gaming, it's expressive and meant to convey an understanding of something more than the literal object, and does more for the viewer by not trying to be representational. I come away from my encounters with his work having an sense of existential dread, a feeling that the pressures of modern society reduce men to something else in the same way they did in his day.
Giacommeti was revolutionary in the same way Blue Table Painting was with the Chaos Dwarves project. The things said about Giacommettit in his day were similarly polemical and polarizing. He did his work at a time of great technological, social and political change, as the ones we live in now. The popular styles of the day were more classic and representational, with Art Deco leading the way in sculpture and architecture, along with Bauhaus and others. The point is, artists of the day were looking to reinvent what we understand as art, and there were competing visions, and not all of them were very well understood. The volcanic, reductionary figures depicted in his work are similar to what we see from BTP, only without the heroic proportions we see in GW miniatures and without having to work in the constraints of the commission painting model.
The genius of table bleue les fauves is that it can be indistinguishable from the execution of even the most basic, untrained painters, while still being something they get paid for. tenebre made a good case for this in his video, but I will highlight some of the characteristics of the style he described again.
* Overspraying, a technique BTP has championed for years, despite the fact most painters consider it garish and incapable of delivering quality results.
* The conspicuous use of mold lines.
* The liberal use of raw undercoat to create consistency between shadows and the exposed details on the model
* The monohue skin tones applied by airbrush in a manner similar to what you could expect from an exploding bag of flour
* The ethereal lighting techniques that occur independently of the object
* The absence of other techniques more commonly applied by so-called expert painters, or the non-uniform application of them, such as basecoats that cover the model, shading / glazing techniques, drybrushing, highlights, extreme highlights, accents / details, etc.
I look at these qualities and ask myself if it's possible to really call BTP a miniature painting service. They occupy a different space and their stylistic advances must be considered as departures from a tired norm begging to be reinvented. The fact there are so many customers willing to do business with them is evidence of both of the commercial and artistic integrity, and ignoring the impact they have had on the sector is hard to do.
And I feel that Blue Table has found a slightly tarnished white knight in you.
Let me ask you - did you suggest Blue Table to your friend?
Blue Table is indeed a painting service - offering nothing that better painting companies do not do with more reliability.
Pointing out the flaws in the works of folks that are not selling their services does not, in any way, make the practices of Blue Table any more reasonable.
They lie to and cheat their customers.
They ignore customer requests, then try to avoid the repercussions of doing so.
When mandated by a court to pay a refund they still avoid doing so.
Come to think, there are other terms, aside from miniatures painting, that applies - crooks, swindlers, and cheats.
Perhaps they should be listed in the directories under those sobriquets?
And I feel that Blue Table has found a slightly tarnished white knight in you.
Let me ask you - did you suggest Blue Table to your friend?
@TheAuldGrump, speaking to the merits of a painting style and championing it's use are 2 different things. I don't really want to be thought of as someone tied to one school of thought. At the end of the day, everyone needs to make up their own mind.
I did not recommend BTP to my friend. Exactly the opposite, I described to him what I read on this website.
He is legally blind and needs to use painting service. I did not recommend BTP because I assumed the cost to work with them would be high compared with other services, and he might not be able to appreciate what he would receive. I was correct on the first count.
Blue Table is indeed a painting service - offering nothing that better painting companies do not do with more reliability.
From what I understand, BTP delivers painting services at a consistent level. It's not Golden-Daemon, or even Paper-Mache-Daemon, but it's not Crystal-Meth-Fulled-Midnight-Robbery either.
Whether or not a client is receiving what they asked for, or if they can appreciate some cutting-edge creative direction, is the question. Not everyone can appreciate a creative vision expressed as anything other than a bullet point list, resembling the work of others in style and execution. That is their edge.
Pointing out the flaws in the works of folks that are not selling their services does not, in any way, make the practices of Blue Table any more reasonable.
I can't say it enough times, any flaws seen in the items I pointed out are in the eyes of the beholder. I care about the community and it is truly humbling that people choose to share their creative vision. I spend a lot of time in the galleries looking at the work of others and offering feedback / praise.
The fact BTP can profitably produce work so hard to distinguish from that of the more raw, expressive painters and modelers is impressive. I get the sense you agree with that statement.
They ignore customer requests, then try to avoid the repercussions of doing so.
When mandated by a court to pay a refund they still avoid doing so.
Again, the art and the law are not always in alignment. What's legal and what's right are often 2 different things.
Tenebre has been nothing but tenacious and I am sure there is another side to the story. Let's wait for our friends at BTP to share their thoughts before we condemn anyone. There are some fights you can't win, no matter how well-intentioned.
Come to think, there are other terms, aside from miniatures painting, that applies - crooks, swindlers, and cheats.
Perhaps they should be listed in the directories under those sobriquets?
The Auld Grump
If you really feel the need to slap labels on people, go ahead, I can't stop you. But realize - that is exactly what you have been accusing me of doing in this exchange, claiming I have been calling other people's works sub-standard.
I am really not into the whole accusations piece within a community of creative people. This is DECADES of Shawn's life invested in getting to the point where his studio can break from convention and deliver work that so mightily challenges our preconceptions of quality, aesthetics, satisfaction, good, and 'painted miniature.'
Those sobriquets don't include the word reinvisioneerican. Think about that before you go throwing bombs, @TheAuldGrump, remember the owner is a re-invisioner (someone who finds another way to do things) and an engineer (who builds processes) and an American (who lives in a Fort, from what I understand.) It takes a lot of work to get those to apply, I wouldn't want to stomp mud all over his good name based on the videos of someone who clearly doesn't understand what BTP has delivered.
There are still a lot of ways to explain all this without taking sides and making accusations in the absence of all the facts. How do you know this was not what tenebre asked for originally, and that he's just not happy with what he got? Have you seen a copy of the settlement, or watched Shawn dodge a court officer trying to service him?
Well, to be fair, Shaun DID blow off a court mandated repayment. Ignoring the quality of work, he is still breaking the law. And not repaying. So he is a swindler and a crook.
curran12 wrote: I think we need to really go out and inform every possible site about this practice. This can't possibly stand.
If it's any consolation, the person mentioned in the original post has decided not to go forward with the project, in large part due to this thread. He decided the money would be better spent on a guitar.
I agree, something needs to be done. Daniel-Mandelbaum-style chicanery and predation should not be tolerated by a worldwide community of enthusiastic hobbyists, nor does it have to be. Shawn has had long enough to correct the problem and we should now be looking at collective action as a means of addressing this injustice.
Maybe a first step it to ask the mods to include a sticky warning in the Swap Shop about dealing with BTP? We could create a poll asking people if they would support such an action. This would get a good deal of exposure and perhaps cause Shawn to come to the table with tenebre.
A second action would be to call for a public boycott of Valhalla. It's an event organized by BTP that is enjoyed by some serious gamers, but it comes at the expense of people like tenebre. Perhaps we go forward with a public awareness campaign to alert people about the relationship between the event and the actions of it's host. While this may not impact who attends, it may affect who publicizes their attendance.
A third action might be to do a comment campaign, where a bunch of people comment on everything Shawn does asking when he's going to pay the judgement laid against him. Shawn is a public figure who uses social media as a means of conducting business, negative comments from a lot of people together would be very hard for him to run away from.
That is not fair, throwing comments at me from years ago. We all say things in the heat of the moment that are not well considered, and our thoughts and ideas change over time.
It feels like I am being blamed for learning and keeping an open mind. Thanks, Obama.
That is not fair, throwing comments at me from years ago. We all say things in the heat of the moment that are not well considered, and our thoughts and ideas change over time.
It feels like I am being blamed for learning and keeping an open mind. Thanks, Obama.
Please, I have no knowledge of this sarcasm of which you speak.
The Auld Grump - more worried because of search engines - people reading without context might take the posts seriously, and this is funnier. (Because everything is funnier... with cold medicine.)
BTP. Other painters do better work with more reasonable refund policies.
I don't know why, im not a computer person.
I'm over fifty, my good lady is in her thirties, but our first child was born just last month - Brigid Danger O'Grump. 
