If anything Draigo says is true, it's easily him (though we all know he's been snorting that fine warp dust)
And by Astarte, are you including traitors? Because in that case, I'd toss in my nomination for Shon'tu. If not, then Sharrowkyn. If "all" space marines aspire to be like the Ultramarines, then all Ultramarine scouts, assault Marines, and vanguard veterans must aspire to be like Sharrowkyn... with probably some fudging of his story on the Ultramarines part. Hell, probably gives Cato Sicarius an inferiority complex...
So, if we don't include Primarchs, i would argue that on the chaos side is Typhon. He is a herald of Nurgle, host of the Destroyer hive and flies of Nurgle,and has been known to level planets with his powers solo. I don't say Abaddon because he's had 12 unsuccessful crusades before this one, and he's finally moving past Cadia this time around.
As for the loyalists(Not including Cato Sicarius), i'd cast my vote for Nathaniel Garro. He was chosen as the Sigilite's right hand man. No other astartes can say that, and when you consider that Malcador was the emperor's right hand man, that(makes him like an index finger or something ) makes a statement about Garro as a soldier.
JustaerinAtTheWall wrote: So, if we don't include Primarchs, i would argue that on the chaos side is Typhon. He is a herald of Nurgle, host of the Destroyer hive and flies of Nurgle,and has been known to level planets with his powers solo. I don't say Abaddon because he's had 12 unsuccessful crusades before this one, and he's finally moving past Cadia this time around.
As for the loyalists(Not including Cato Sicarius), i'd cast my vote for Nathaniel Garro. He was chosen as the Sigilite's right hand man. No other astartes can say that, and when you consider that Malcador was the emperor's right hand man, that(makes him like an index finger or something ) makes a statement about Garro as a soldier.
JustaerinAtTheWall wrote: So, if we don't include Primarchs, i would argue that on the chaos side is Typhon. He is a herald of Nurgle, host of the Destroyer hive and flies of Nurgle,and has been known to level planets with his powers solo. I don't say Abaddon because he's had 12 unsuccessful crusades before this one, and he's finally moving past Cadia this time around.
As for the loyalists(Not including Cato Sicarius), i'd cast my vote for Nathaniel Garro. He was chosen as the Sigilite's right hand man. No other astartes can say that, and when you consider that Malcador was the emperor's right hand man, that(makes him like an index finger or something ) makes a statement about Garro as a soldier.
Didn't Garro betray Mortarion?
Do you only reply to people's answers with more questions?
Also, I would say that everyone has the traitors covered, in terms of loyalist I would say Koorland gets pretty close. He (was) the last survivor of the Imperial Fists, became its Chapter Master and rallied the other successors of Dorn against the Beast, helped found the Deathwatch, become Lord Commander of the Imperium and deal with the politicking of the High Lords while he was still alive.
JustaerinAtTheWall wrote: So, if we don't include Primarchs, i would argue that on the chaos side is Typhon. He is a herald of Nurgle, host of the Destroyer hive and flies of Nurgle,and has been known to level planets with his powers solo. I don't say Abaddon because he's had 12 unsuccessful crusades before this one, and he's finally moving past Cadia this time around.
As for the loyalists(Not including Cato Sicarius), i'd cast my vote for Nathaniel Garro. He was chosen as the Sigilite's right hand man. No other astartes can say that, and when you consider that Malcador was the emperor's right hand man, that(makes him like an index finger or something ) makes a statement about Garro as a soldier.
Didn't Garro betray Mortarion?
Yes, so he's a traitor's traitor(Thus making him a loyalist to ya boi Emp ). Besides i'd attribute that to another excellent quality of Garro. He wasn't so blind not to see that Horus was wrong and knew when to stand next to his Primarch, and when to stand against him.
JustaerinAtTheWall wrote: So, if we don't include Primarchs, i would argue that on the chaos side is Typhon. He is a herald of Nurgle, host of the Destroyer hive and flies of Nurgle,and has been known to level planets with his powers solo. I don't say Abaddon because he's had 12 unsuccessful crusades before this one, and he's finally moving past Cadia this time around.
As for the loyalists(Not including Cato Sicarius), i'd cast my vote for Nathaniel Garro. He was chosen as the Sigilite's right hand man. No other astartes can say that, and when you consider that Malcador was the emperor's right hand man, that(makes him like an index finger or something ) makes a statement about Garro as a soldier.
Didn't Garro betray Mortarion?
Garro betrayed nobody. His allegiance was always to the Emperor, as was Mortarian for a time, until he turned traitor. Garro and his brothers simply refused to follow him into treachery.
Castiel wrote: Greatest Astartes thread and no mention of Sigismund? For shame. The title "Emperor's Champion" says it all!
Amen! Sigismund is definitely up there!
Aye...
Alot of the 30k leaders, first captains and Heroes give there 40k brothers a good challenge. Ots a pretty close can between the modern and hersey eras.
Also byorn the fell handed can cheat and be only one to be in both timelines....
My vote is Cypher. Dude has been wrecking entire planets and he's killed Chaos Lords, Chapter Masters and Inquisitors of all varieties. His accomplishments are lengthy, here's a link.
I'm waiting for the hate on this, but I'd say Marneus Calgar. Codex states that only Guilliman has accomplished more than him, he's not only a superlative warrior, but he's also a capable General, a successful politician and a very fair minded person.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: I'm waiting for the hate on this, but I'd say Marneus Calgar. Codex states that only Guilliman has accomplished more than him, he's not only a superlative warrior, but he's also a capable General, a successful politician and a very fair minded person.
Lord Tarkin wrote: My vote is Cypher. Dude has been wrecking entire planets and he's killed Chaos Lords, Chapter Masters and Inquisitors of all varieties. His accomplishments are lengthy, here's a link.
There's a very short paragraph in the current rulebook about great astartes emerging "Like the primarchs of old" in great need, saving the Imperium. It's an event that happened.... Actually I don't have the rulebook on hand so unsure about the date. M37 ish? If memort serves. I'd figure those four, whoever they where, would be up there.
Bjorn's the single oldest Astartes in the galaxy.
The Astral knights chapter master was pretty badass.
Huron managed one hell of a heresy without actually tempting other chapters with chaos, just using political reasons like "why are we fighting for the Imperium, what did the Emperor do for us?" to sway several chapters.
Probably some badass veteran lamentor that's seen more gak then any other space marine.
Though to name number one I actually think it's whoever's the legion of the damndes chapter master. If the theory that they're the firelords is true and they are actually a chapter that's going around through time showing up at pivotal spots to change important events then great characters like Dante, Tigirius and Lorgar might all actually be where they are today because of the legion of the damndes interference. Hence their chapter master, or whoever came up with the plan, must be the greatest in terms of good done for the Imperium. If they're one of the cursed foundings or there's some other explanation then I'd put credit to their de facto leader.
If we're talking loyalists, I'd want to say either Calgar,or Koorland. Let's face it, Koorland was running the Imperium for a time, last Imperial Fist and restarted their Chapter, was able to stand up to the Beast who defeated Vulkan - a worthy candidate.
Lukas the Trickster.
By a long shot.
Acccomplishments -
*Sleeping around like a boss
*Infecting, poisoning and generally begging for death from some of the least restrained and most capable fighters in the imperium and continually surviving their vengance
*Locked an Imperial Delegation in a pen of large, horny animals
*Defeating an Orc WAAAGH!!! without actually fighting
*Causing a Rogue Mechanicus cult's own weaponry to backfire in a very literal sense
*Defeating a second Orc WAAAGH!!! by icing them
*Defeating an army of Renegade Space Marines while drunk as a skunk
*Hunted down and killed a doppelgangrel, some kind of elusive chameleon mutt type critter
*Had his secondary heart removed in the line of duty, replaced it with a stasis bomb
*Codex claims he's only been bested in combat once but since they only mention the guy who beat him one can assume he picks his fights better for the most part
Getting drunk in the first place is actually a pretty big challenge for most Space Marines, a Space Marine can drink methylated spirits and fart alcohol vapor without any adverse effects. The Space Wolves use a toxin that shuts down one of their livers then drink hard spirits at the rate most people drink beer in order to get drunk.
Getting drunk in the first place is actually a pretty big challenge for most Space Marines, a Space Marine can drink methylated spirits and fart alcohol vapor without any adverse effects. The Space Wolves use a toxin that shuts down one of their livers then drink hard spirits at the rate most people drink beer in order to get drunk.
GoonBandito wrote: Erebus. Basically started the Heresy by turning Horus to Chaos.
This. Erebus engineered the Horus Heresy. No greater accomplishment unless another Marine manages to bring a Primarch back to the Emperor's side after Chaos corrupted it.
Lord Tarkin wrote: My vote is Cypher. Dude has been wrecking entire planets and he's killed Chaos Lords, Chapter Masters and Inquisitors of all varieties. His accomplishments are lengthy, here's a link.
How is this dude still alive? 10,000 years old and not Chaos tainted so...shouldn't he be dead
i mean Dante is only 1100
He spends a lot of his time in the Eye, where time is all but meaningless. And besides, nobody knows if Space Marines die of old age cuz they die on the battlefield before anything can be proven.
But is Bjorn doing anything about it? My personal interpretation is that he doesn't fully know what is going on, being in and out of sleep even for a dreadnought. Dante is actually watching on a day to day basis, and is trying to do something about it.
Mudrat wrote: But is Bjorn doing anything about it? My personal interpretation is that he doesn't fully know what is going on, being in and out of sleep even for a dreadnought. Dante is actually watching on a day to day basis, and is trying to do something about it.
Depends on the Fluff.
In some stories Bjorn just sleeps, in others he's a latent but powerful psyker who protects Fenris from warp threats while he sleeps which is why he takes longer and longer to wake up and why he's so disorientated when he finally does. That aside whenever Bjorn is woken up for something other than the Wolves' century feast his actions are usually pivotal in some way or another.
Mudrat wrote: But is Bjorn doing anything about it? My personal interpretation is that he doesn't fully know what is going on, being in and out of sleep even for a dreadnought. Dante is actually watching on a day to day basis, and is trying to do something about it.
He seems pretty up to date considering he gets consulted on things by Space Wolves.
The psyker stuff is new to me. Do the wolves claim he's a Rune Priest or whatever the hell they call them, or do they actually concede he is a dyed in the wool psyker? I'm not holding my breath.
Mudrat wrote: The psyker stuff is new to me. Do the wolves claim he's a Rune Priest or whatever the hell they call them, or do they actually concede he is a dyed in the wool psyker? I'm not holding my breath.
There was no mention of the Wolves actually knowing about it. Come to think of it I've never read anything about the Wolves asking Bjorn personal questions either...no wonder he's a grouchy old sod, the Wolves only ever wake him up to demand stories of the Heresy or beg advice...kind of a poor show that.
As for the Wolves being Psykers I don't think the Wolves ever had an issue with psychic powers themselves, big E said stop it so the Wolves stopped along with all the other Chapters, except the Thousand Sons, the Wolves just picked it up again when everyone else did.
Russ and the boys attacked the Sons under falsified orders from the big E and because Russ was more than happy to take a crack at any of his brothers, he's kind of a jerk like that - gives them every last chance to change their ways but he's more than happy to fight them.
Mudrat wrote: The psyker stuff is new to me. Do the wolves claim he's a Rune Priest or whatever the hell they call them, or do they actually concede he is a dyed in the wool psyker? I'm not holding my breath.
As for the Wolves being Psykers I don't think the Wolves ever had an issue with psychic powers themselves, big E said stop it so the Wolves stopped along with all the other Chapters, except the Thousand Sons, the Wolves just picked it up again when everyone else did.
Russ and the boys attacked the Sons under falsified orders from the big E and because Russ was more than happy to take a crack at any of his brothers, he's kind of a jerk like that - gives them every last chance to change their ways but he's more than happy to fight them.
They didn't stop. Go back to Prospero Burns and re-read the whole section between Nikaea and Prospero.
Koorland...until he got stepped on. No other Astarte has ever actually run the imperium solo. Without koorland the imperium wouldn't exist, can you say that about any other space marine?
Mudrat wrote: The psyker stuff is new to me. Do the wolves claim he's a Rune Priest or whatever the hell they call them, or do they actually concede he is a dyed in the wool psyker? I'm not holding my breath.
As for the Wolves being Psykers I don't think the Wolves ever had an issue with psychic powers themselves, big E said stop it so the Wolves stopped along with all the other Chapters, except the Thousand Sons, the Wolves just picked it up again when everyone else did.
Russ and the boys attacked the Sons under falsified orders from the big E and because Russ was more than happy to take a crack at any of his brothers, he's kind of a jerk like that - gives them every last chance to change their ways but he's more than happy to fight them.
They didn't stop. Go back to Prospero Burns and re-read the whole section between Nikaea and Prospero.
As for the Wolves being Psykers I don't think the Wolves ever had an issue with psychic powers themselves, big E said stop it so the Wolves stopped along with all the other Chapters, except the Thousand Sons, the Wolves just picked it up again when everyone else did.
Russ and the boys attacked the Sons under falsified orders from the big E and because Russ was more than happy to take a crack at any of his brothers, he's kind of a jerk like that - gives them every last chance to change their ways but he's more than happy to fight them.
My comment was more about their insistence that they get there powers from fenris or whatever crap excuse they used. That hypocrasy always drove me away from liking the Space Wolves, and then them murdering everything on prospero made me like the Thousand Sons
As for the Wolves being Psykers I don't think the Wolves ever had an issue with psychic powers themselves, big E said stop it so the Wolves stopped along with all the other Chapters, except the Thousand Sons, the Wolves just picked it up again when everyone else did.
Russ and the boys attacked the Sons under falsified orders from the big E and because Russ was more than happy to take a crack at any of his brothers, he's kind of a jerk like that - gives them every last chance to change their ways but he's more than happy to fight them.
My comment was more about their insistence that they get there powers from fenris or whatever crap excuse they used. That hypocrasy always drove me away from liking the Space Wolves, and then them murdering everything on prospero made me like the Thousand Sons
Meh, hypocracy is a common language in the Imperium - along with lying, secret keeping and misdirection.
The most honest races in the imperium are the Orcs and Tyranids.
WE Drake Man wrote: Dante. No one else comes close UNLESS you count chaos in which case Abaddon
What's Dante done that's so impressive?
Survive a millennium to watch his chapter slowly die.
Bjorn has been in a box for roughly 10 millennia watching his chapter slowly die.
He also saw the fact the imperium faultered in the g
Golden age and now is slowly dying and ever weaker having lost all direction.
Guess that means there is nothing special about Dante. Bjorn has done it longer and better.
Dante has been commanding the blood angles for hundreds of years, one of the most prominent, famous, and also challenging to lead chapters in the imperium. Bjorn has been sitting semi-concious in a box.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: I'm waiting for the hate on this, but I'd say Marneus Calgar. Codex states that only Guilliman has accomplished more than him, he's not only a superlative warrior, but he's also a capable General, a successful politician and a very fair minded person.
Strange.
Got a quote?
Not at the moment, I'm on holiday, but when I'm home, I'll cracking open the books and find the exact quote.
WE Drake Man wrote: Dante. No one else comes close UNLESS you count chaos in which case Abaddon
What's Dante done that's so impressive?
Survive a millennium to watch his chapter slowly die.
Bjorn has been in a box for roughly 10 millennia watching his chapter slowly die.
He also saw the fact the imperium faultered in the g
Golden age and now is slowly dying and ever weaker having lost all direction.
Guess that means there is nothing special about Dante. Bjorn has done it longer and better.
Dante has been commanding the blood angles for hundreds of years, one of the most prominent, famous, and also challenging to lead chapters in the imperium. Bjorn has been sitting semi-concious in a box.
That's like saying Dante sits at a desk signing things.
WE Drake Man wrote: Dante. No one else comes close UNLESS you count chaos in which case Abaddon
What's Dante done that's so impressive?
Survive a millennium to watch his chapter slowly die.
Bjorn has been in a box for roughly 10 millennia watching his chapter slowly die.
He also saw the fact the imperium faultered in the g
Golden age and now is slowly dying and ever weaker having lost all direction.
Guess that means there is nothing special about Dante. Bjorn has done it longer and better.
Dante has been commanding the blood angles for hundreds of years, one of the most prominent, famous, and also challenging to lead chapters in the imperium. Bjorn has been sitting semi-concious in a box.
That's like saying Dante sits at a desk signing things.
Funnily enough, that's what Chapter Master used to be in the old fluff : old retired SM that would act as the supreme administrator of a Chapter, while another Marine, the Lieutnant Commander was in charge of all military operations and assets.
WE Drake Man wrote: Dante. No one else comes close UNLESS you count chaos in which case Abaddon
What's Dante done that's so impressive?
Survive a millennium to watch his chapter slowly die.
Bjorn has been in a box for roughly 10 millennia watching his chapter slowly die.
He also saw the fact the imperium faultered in the g
Golden age and now is slowly dying and ever weaker having lost all direction.
Guess that means there is nothing special about Dante. Bjorn has done it longer and better.
Dante has been commanding the blood angles for hundreds of years, one of the most prominent, famous, and also challenging to lead chapters in the imperium. Bjorn has been sitting semi-concious in a box.
That's like saying Dante sits at a desk signing things.
Funnily enough, that's what Chapter Master used to be in the old fluff : old retired SM that would act as the supreme administrator of a Chapter, while another Marine, the Lieutnant Commander was in charge of all military operations and assets.
Yeah I agree and I really like the idea, it would give more depths to SM Chapters organization, but that's probably not as badass for GW current direction.
WE Drake Man wrote: Dante. No one else comes close UNLESS you count chaos in which case Abaddon
What's Dante done that's so impressive?
Survive a millennium to watch his chapter slowly die.
Bjorn has been in a box for roughly 10 millennia watching his chapter slowly die.
He also saw the fact the imperium faultered in the g
Golden age and now is slowly dying and ever weaker having lost all direction.
Guess that means there is nothing special about Dante. Bjorn has done it longer and better.
Dante has been commanding the blood angles for hundreds of years, one of the most prominent, famous, and also challenging to lead chapters in the imperium. Bjorn has been sitting semi-concious in a box.
That's like saying Dante sits at a desk signing things.
He saved corax by piloting a burning thunderhawk with one wing.
Saul Tarvitz.
Single-handedly saved all the loyalists on Istváan III.
Garro
Warned the Emperor
Ahrimman
Saved his whole legion by teleporting them into the warp, saved them again by turning them into dust and has been looking for a way to reverse that ever since.
To be fair everyone, including me, is actually Alpharius, so this thread is pointless.
There are several petty badass heresy-era Astartes, Sharrowkyn (shot Fulgrim in the face, twice outclassed then killed Lucius-thought to be the best swordsman of the legions), Alexis Polux-out fought and out thought 2 primarchs. Garviel Loken: defeated Lucius too, defeated Khârn, came close to deafeating Abbadon, survived an exterminatus and then became a founder of the Grey Knights.
Draigo, Gabriel Angelos, Cato Sicarius, Pedro Kantor.... There are far too many of them but if I had to choose one it'd be Marneus Calgar, obviously, as he's one of the top dogs of the Imperium, messed up Avatar of Khaine with his fists, and is surpassed only by Guilliman and of course, me.
BaconUprising wrote: There are several petty badass heresy-era Astartes, Sharrowkyn (shot Fulgrim in the face, twice outclassed then killed Lucius-thought to be the best swordsman of the legions), Alexis Polux-out fought and out thought 2 primarchs. Garviel Loken: defeated Lucius too, defeated Khârn, came close to deafeating Abbadon, survived an exterminatus and then became a founder of the Grey Knights.
Whilst I agree with you in certain respects Bacon, there is much speculation as to the true founder of the GK. Abaddon states that it can't be his "wayward brother". Many assume he's referring to either Loken or Qruze, and therefore would eliminate him from the running.
BaconUprising wrote: There are several petty badass heresy-era Astartes, Sharrowkyn (shot Fulgrim in the face, twice outclassed then killed Lucius-thought to be the best swordsman of the legions), Alexis Polux-out fought and out thought 2 primarchs. Garviel Loken: defeated Lucius too, defeated Khârn, came close to deafeating Abbadon, survived an exterminatus and then became a founder of the Grey Knights.
Whilst I agree with you in certain respects Bacon, there is much speculation as to the true founder of the GK. Abaddon states that it can't be his "wayward brother". Many assume he's referring to either Loken or Qruze, and therefore would eliminate him from the running.
Honestly I have no idea at all. I heard some time back that after surving Istaavn he and Garro want on to find the Grey Knights, there's a very good chance I'm wrong. But all that aside, Loken is quite the badass, he just strikes me as far more mentally and tactically flexible than almost any other marine. He arguably beats the 3 greatest legio astartes of the Heresy, maybe of all time: Khârn (Kharn is undoubtedly a better fighter than Loken, and yet he is soundly beaten when Loken out-thinks him, launching him into the path of a landraider and then ducking into cover). Lucius -often referred to as the greatest swordsman in the Legions, a formidable dualist, beaten by Lokan-he realises that he cannot fight him blade to blade and so injects a physical aspect into the duel, laying him out flat and winning. And lastly vs Abbadon. If you read the account of their duel on Istavaan you soon realise just how badly outclassed Abbadon is on this occasion, Loken is fighting with a friggin chainsword, Abbadon is fighting with a Paragon Blade and powerfist. Loken in power armour, Abbadon in terminator armour. If you read the novel Betrayer the issues of fighting chainblade vs power weapon is made clear, it's nigh impossible. And Abbadon is the one knocked into the rubble at Loken's mercy, in the passage Loken turns to see Toragadon beheaded by Aximand. In that time Abbadon manages to free himself from the rubble. Loken could have killed Abbadon in this time and nearly does anyway, he drives a chainsword, yes a chainsword through terminator plate by pure anger alone, Abbadon is eventually saved by what is made clear to be the additional strength afforded to him by terminator plate.
So yes I'll chalk that up as a win for Loken. Oh yeah and he survives a viral bombardment and a firstorm, plus a building falling on him before returning to fight for the Imperium. There can't be many Astartes who have managed feats like this
I think we need to make some clarification here. The OP said GREATEST astartes, but thats open to some interpretation. Are we voting for most badass astartes (who I agree would have to be Loken), or most influential/prominent astartes (i.e dante, calgar, logan etc)?
It's only between Erebus and Abaddon. One split the Imperium in two and the other is its most feared enemy and threatens to destroy it even now. I lean towards Erebus. OK, hes not smashing faces or leading black crusades, but the results of his actions prior to and during the Heresy have had far more impact than any other marine. The corruption of Lorgar and the legions and the creation of the ruinstorm set a chain of events that destroyed hope for mankind. Yea he hasn't done much interesting for awhile, but his past actions have far reaching effects on the imperium every day. If Abaddon manages the topple the Imperium, he takes the #1 spot.
The 40k chapter master votes just don't do it for me. The descriptions of 40kSM heroes mostly read like propaganda. If Calgar and Dante's actions were in say M35, would they be anything more than a paragraph in a codex? I'm probably biased as a big Heresy reader, but I just don't see the actions of the M41 space marines resonating like the days of the legions. A chapter master is 1/1000. A first captain is 1/100,000+. Also I find it hard to believe the greatest heroes always arise from First Founding Chapters, its mostly just narrative convenience.
BaconUprising wrote: [He arguably beats the 3 greatest legio astartes of the Heresy, maybe of all time: Khârn (Kharn is undoubtedly a better fighter than Loken, and yet he is soundly beaten when Loken out-thinks him, launching him into the path of a landraider and then ducking into cover). Lucius -often referred to as the greatest swordsman in the Legions, a formidable dualist, beaten by Lokan-he realises that he cannot fight him blade to blade and so injects a physical aspect into the duel, laying him out flat and winning.
I think it's telling that Kharn was beating Loken until he was lucky enough for a land raider to pass by. It was quite evident that in a straight up fight Kharn would have demolished Loken. Lucius hasn't really been portrayed as top tier. He routinely gets beaten by named characters. It's not really surprising either; his main schtick is that he comes back to life.
Loken isn't the best fighter. Yes kharn was beating him, so was Lucius and Abbadon. They all completely outclassed him ability wise. But winning fights isn't all about skill with a blade, or terminator armour, or anger. Loken represents is dude who brings a gun to a knife fight, he fights in a way that will let him win, not a way that is 'honourable'. And overall I think he's one of if not THE best Astarte duellist in the whole 30k setting, he never lost, even to the warmaster to be while wielding monsterously weaker tools. It's not pretty, but the reality is war is not pretty. Loken embodies the true spirit of the Luna Wolves/SoH, Horus wasn't so much a tactical god likes he's portrayed, he would just use what he needed to at the right time to let him win, overwhelming force applied with precision and by any means necessary-i.e. The virus bombing of Istavaan.
I mean, you can rationalise it any way you want, but history remembers the victors, if Kharn wasn't so plated in his 40k plot armour he'd have died there and then. He may have been winning, yet he lost. The fact he was winning means nothing. Horus was beating the emperor, badly . But he lost. The loyalist didn't decide they'd give him half the Imperium because he put up a good fight. To the victor the spoils
BaconUprising wrote: Loken isn't the best fighter. Yes kharn was beating him, so was Lucius and Abbadon. They all completely outclassed him ability wise. But winning fights isn't all about skill with a blade, or terminator armour, or anger. Loken represents is dude who brings a gun to a knife fight, he fights in a way that will let him win, not a way that is 'honourable'. And overall I think he's one of if not THE best Astarte duellist in the whole 30k setting, he never lost, even to the warmaster to be while wielding monsterously weaker tools. It's not pretty, but the reality is war is not pretty. Loken embodies the true spirit of the Luna Wolves/SoH, Horus wasn't so much a tactical god likes he's portrayed, he would just use what he needed to at the right time to let him win, overwhelming force applied with precision and by any means necessary-i.e. The virus bombing of Istavaan.
I mean, you can rationalise it any way you want, but history remembers the victors, if Kharn wasn't so plated in his 40k plot armour he'd have died there and then. He may have been winning, yet he lost. The fact he was winning means nothing. Horus was beating the emperor, badly . But he lost. The loyalist didn't decide they'd give him half the Imperium because he put up a good fight. To the victor the spoils
Ut's true that you can summarize the debate by this question : Will the strongest one win, or is the one who wins the strongest ?
Nykona "Mary Sue" Sharrowkyn is obviously the best fighter, sniper, and master of stealth to ever have existed.
Marneus "Defeats Ork Waaaghs single-handedly" Calgar also ranks pretty high.
But in all seriousness, I find it very difficult to take them seriously due to their utter lack of flaws.
Sevatar, for actually being the only one capable of gathering the Night Lords (Decimus may have a word about that though)
Abaddon, for creating a Legion-strength Warband
Huron Blackheart, for creating a Legion-strength Warband
Dante, for all his campaigns
Tu'Shan, for being the closest thing to a humanitarian in the 41st millennia
Azrael, for all his campaigns
Alexis Pollux, for effectively having beaten a Primarch at void war
Loken, for holding out against the might of several Primarchs on Isstvan III
Malakim Phoros, for back-handedly insulting the UMs.
Oh, ill just help inherit my primarch`s teleporting-invisibility ability.
Oh, ill just survive the greatest massacre in imperial history.
And rescue a Iron Father
And help the Iron Hands
And best Lucius, the greatest swordsman in the legion with the best swordsmen, in combat.
I`ll just do that again. And kill him.
Then, how about I headshot his primarch?
Yep, done all that.
BaconUprising wrote: Loken isn't the best fighter. Yes kharn was beating him, so was Lucius and Abbadon. They all completely outclassed him ability wise. But winning fights isn't all about skill with a blade, or terminator armour, or anger. Loken represents is dude who brings a gun to a knife fight, he fights in a way that will let him win, not a way that is 'honourable'.
Loken got lucky with Kharn. Take away something beyond his control (and enemy Land Raider going past and not seeing him) and he would have lost. Kharn is the greater fighter (in personal combat at least). Loken demonstrated great awareness and initiative but long was in his favour. Lucius got beaten the same way twice so he clearly has a significant weak point there.
I think it's a little unfair to say Kharn was covered by plot armour when the loyalists holding off the tratiors for so long was entirely due to plot armour. Plus the Land Raider coming past to save Loken arguably constitutes as plot armour.
BaconUprising wrote: Loken isn't the best fighter. Yes kharn was beating him, so was Lucius and Abbadon. They all completely outclassed him ability wise. But winning fights isn't all about skill with a blade, or terminator armour, or anger. Loken represents is dude who brings a gun to a knife fight, he fights in a way that will let him win, not a way that is 'honourable'.
Loken got lucky with Kharn. Take away something beyond his control (and enemy Land Raider going past and not seeing him) and he would have lost. Kharn is the greater fighter (in personal combat at least). Loken demonstrated great awareness and initiative but long was in his favour. Lucius got beaten the same way twice so he clearly has a significant weak point there.
I think it's a little unfair to say Kharn was covered by plot armour when the loyalists holding off the tratiors for so long was entirely due to plot armour. Plus the Land Raider coming past to save Loken arguably constitutes as plot armour.
I agree, in terms of plot armour, Loken kinda is one the best example throughout the whole Horus Heresy serie. Kharne's can at least be explained by the interest Khorne has in him.
BaconUprising wrote: Loken isn't the best fighter. Yes kharn was beating him, so was Lucius and Abbadon. They all completely outclassed him ability wise. But winning fights isn't all about skill with a blade, or terminator armour, or anger. Loken represents is dude who brings a gun to a knife fight, he fights in a way that will let him win, not a way that is 'honourable'.
Loken got lucky with Kharn. Take away something beyond his control (and enemy Land Raider going past and not seeing him) and he would have lost. Kharn is the greater fighter (in personal combat at least). Loken demonstrated great awareness and initiative but long was in his favour. Lucius got beaten the same way twice so he clearly has a significant weak point there.
I think it's a little unfair to say Kharn was covered by plot armour when the loyalists holding off the tratiors for so long was entirely due to plot armour. Plus the Land Raider coming past to save Loken arguably constitutes as plot armour.
Was Khârn even beating him? I haven't read the passage in a long time, I remember it being pretty even. I think Angron summarised it well when his argument with Russ. That warriors who don't fear death and fight with nothing held back will always beat warriors who have something to lose, and yet kharn lost and would not be in the 40k setting unless he "somehow survived and was pulled off the dozer blade going straight through his chest" with no side effects. Khorne had nothing to do with Kharn first survival. His 40k model sure did though. I think if you're going to start nitpicking on outside influences on duels then a lot of them need to be discredited, Sharrowkyn vs Lucius, Fulgrim vs Ferrus, Big E vs Horus, Sanguinius vs Horus. All have external influences on the duel itself.
Was Khârn even beating him? I haven't read the passage in a long time, I remember it being pretty even. I think Angron summarised it well when his argument with Russ. That warriors who don't fear death and fight with nothing held back will always beat warriors who have something to lose, and yet kharn lost and would not be in the 40k setting unless he "somehow survived and was pulled off the dozer blade going straight through his chest" with no side effects. Khorne had nothing to do with Kharn first survival. His 40k model sure did though. I think if you're going to start nitpicking on outside influences on duels then a lot of them need to be discredited, Sharrowkyn vs Lucius, Fulgrim vs Ferrus, Big E vs Horus, Sanguinius vs Horus. All have external influences on the duel itself.
I suppose it's debatable who was winning. Loken was fighting back and the fight wasn't certain. Being impaled on dozer blades wouldn't necessarily kill most Marines unless they punctured both hearts. The way Loken won was still due to the interference of an outside factor so it doesn't mean he is a greater fighter. I haven't read the books with Sharrowkyn but Fulgrim vs Ferrus can absolutely be debated (especially the second fight). When talking about who is a greater fighter then I would look at who seems more likely to win consistently in a "fair" fight. Generally I'd say Kharn would beat Loken.
However, rereading the original post I have realised that this is kind of off topic since he was not asking for the most best warrior so... agree to disagree?
I don't disagree though, I don't consider Loken the best fighter, but I do consider him one of if not the best duellist. And my original post wasn't off topic. I think beating the 3 greatest Legion Astartes: Abbadon, Kharn, Lucius. Surviving an exterminatus and being buried alive under a temple+surviving to rush back and found the Knights errant or GK's does qualify him as a contender for the greatest Astarte
I think Nathaniel Garro is probably the greatest Astartes there has ever been.
Konvak Lann is also up there I think. After being declared lacking in faith he was forced to lead his Astartes, along with 30 other Chapters, into the Eye of Terror purging at least 400 worlds. Where other Chapters fell to Chaos Lann and his Vorpal Swords left the Eye and revealed the true nature of their accuser, Saint Basilius, showing that he was in fact a corrupted agent of the Dark Powers.
The legions didn't have a threat that was as great or greater then themselves. 40k era Marines have to deal with Necrons, Tyranids and chaos. The 30k era Marines almost lost when a single new faction was introduced, chaos. Then Immediately almost lost again vs orks. Honestly the 30k era astartes greatest accomplishment was how bad they screwed things up fighting among themselves. Hence Erebus and/or Abbadon takes the cake.
On the loyalist side I'm holding on to the firelords chapter master, if the theory about them being the legion of the damned is correct. Did your chapter master/primarch sacrifice his chapter to go time travelling to ensure the Imperiums survival?
BaconUprising wrote: I don't disagree though, I don't consider Loken the best fighter, but I do consider him one of if not the best duellist. And my original post wasn't off topic. I think beating the 3 greatest Legion Astartes: Abbadon, Kharn, Lucius. Surviving an exterminatus and being buried alive under a temple+surviving to rush back and found the Knights errant or GK's does qualify him as a contender for the greatest Astarte
BaconUprising wrote: I don't disagree though, I don't consider Loken the best fighter, but I do consider him one of if not the best duellist. And my original post wasn't off topic. I think beating the 3 greatest Legion Astartes: Abbadon, Kharn, Lucius. Surviving an exterminatus and being buried alive under a temple+surviving to rush back and found the Knights errant or GK's does qualify him as a contender for the greatest Astarte
And Kharns got plot armour you say.
Every major character has plot armour. This is a fantasy universe embroiled in a galaxy spanning civil war, frontline characters would in reality almost certainly not survive multiple battles. But yeah Loken is pretty tanky, returning from the dead is sort of his schtic. Although so does Kharn, Lucius and several others
By the printed rules I think it has to be Sigismund. His lore is pretty great, too - arguably the best combatant in the legions and the chosen sword of his primarch and the Emperor.
Saber wrote: By the printed rules I think it has to be Sigismund. His lore is pretty great, too - arguably the best combatant in the legions and the chosen sword of his primarch and the Emperor.
He got his ass wupped by sevetar and Abbadon, he disobeyed his Primarch and was excommunicated. I wouldn't say so
Name another Astarte who has served loyalty for more than 10 000 years.
Kharn the Betrayer.
heh, you never said they had to serve the corpse-emperor.
Let's look at the idea you're saying Kharn the BETRAYER served loyally. Slight clue in the name.
Sanity is for the weak.
Besides, he's called that for attacking his legion, not for betraying a particular person, so I can still say he served loyally.
Name another Astarte who has served loyalty for more than 10 000 years.
Kharn the Betrayer.
heh, you never said they had to serve the corpse-emperor.
Let's look at the idea you're saying Kharn the BETRAYER served loyally. Slight clue in the name.
Sanity is for the weak.
Besides, he's called that for attacking his legion, not for betraying a particular person, so I can still say he served loyally.
Not really seeing as he betrayed people at least twice.
Saber wrote: By the printed rules I think it has to be Sigismund. His lore is pretty great, too - arguably the best combatant in the legions and the chosen sword of his primarch and the Emperor.
He got his ass wupped by sevetar and Abbadon, he disobeyed his Primarch and was excommunicated. I wouldn't say so
Not by the printed rules even? If you're not an eternal warrior Sigismund kills you in one round almost every time.
(Also, as I recall Sevetar hardly 'whupped' him - the Night Lord broke the rules of the duel and lost.)
Sevatar did indeed win by breaking the rules, In an actual fight to the death there wouldn't be rules so using it as an example of how Sevatar is a better fighter than Sigismund doesn't work. As for being beaten by Abaddon, we don't know the circumstances of that fight (or even if it was one on one). Considering Abaddon is the most dangerous Space Marine, traitor or loyalist, in 40K it's not much of a mark against Sigismund regardless.
Saber wrote: By the printed rules I think it has to be Sigismund. His lore is pretty great, too - arguably the best combatant in the legions and the chosen sword of his primarch and the Emperor.
He got his ass wupped by sevetar and Abbadon, he disobeyed his Primarch and was excommunicated. I wouldn't say so
Not by the printed rules even? If you're not an eternal warrior Sigismund kills you in one round almost every time.
(Also, as I recall Sevetar hardly 'whupped' him - the Night Lord broke the rules of the duel and lost.)
And when he fought Abaddon, he was over a thousand years old while Abby had his Daemon sword and chaos marks. I would Agree that Sigismund is, along with Loken, probably the best loyal marine of 30k.
Personally, I don't see the hype about Bjorn. He was left behind by russ, got his arse kicked by a daemon, and almost never goes out to fight anymore, so the odds of him living 10,000 years are obviously much better than anyone else.
@pm, who was the 2nd betrayal? The emperor is the obvious one, but it can still be disputed. I don't know of a 2nd person he betrayed.
While he isnt as well renowned or as powerful in lore and also now no longer playable, justicar Anvril Thawn has won me the most number of gamed back in 5th 6th edition as a single infantry model anyway.
Having the ability to resurrect was an amazing trait the likes of st. Celestine or comissar yarric
Name another Astarte who has served loyalty for more than 10 000 years.
Kharn the Betrayer.
heh, you never said they had to serve the corpse-emperor.
Let's look at the idea you're saying Kharn the BETRAYER served loyally. Slight clue in the name.
Sanity is for the weak.
Besides, he's called that for attacking his legion, not for betraying a particular person, so I can still say he served loyally.
Easy answer to this quarrel: He serves Khorne VERY loyally by taking skulls for the throne and spilling the blood of the masses!
I'd like to see the Astartes past or present that could beat Dante 1v1 if he where to give in to the black rage.
Come to think of it, "greatest astartes" in terms of personal achievements could actually go to Mephisto. The guy is the only one to defeat the black rage where 10.000 years of Marines have all been trying and failed. Not huge of an galactic impact but in personal restraint no one has litteraly ever done it before.
Loving all the love for Loken, but then I really like him as a character. Heresy era it would he him, Garro and Saul Tarvitz, and possible old Iacton too because they seemed to have the furthest to come in terms of their personal journeys within the storyline.
Beyond that its much harder to tell. I get the love for Bjorn, Dante and even Mephiston, but can't really mae up my mind about any of them.
For me the greatest astarte would be the one who, even being a post human (have I got that right) finds and cleaves onto that inner bit of humanity within them. Its not all about martial prowess for me, because there will have been a million astartes on a billion battles who feats would match those that have been indicated in this thread. Dunno, soz, rambling.... :-)
Not much love for Castellan Garran Crowe. Psyker, duelist supreme, super pure, hold a daemon blade but refuses to tap into its power, Being a Grey Knight he is extra Mary Sue (thanks Ward), and if you go by the game rules he has rerollable saves and smash in a duel, hammerhand, and cleansing flames.
I saw someone posted about it being cypher as he is over 10k years old but he isnt as the name cypher is just a rank essentially the current cypher is actually the youngest there has ever been.
I honestly think kharn is the best he can pretty single handedly wreck most of the imperium has been alive since 30k and his greatest achievement he calmed down an enraged Angron who was known not for his passive reasonable nature but for tearing anyone in front of him apart. Also i think he would have a sweet accent
Nerak wrote: I'd like to see the Astartes past or present that could beat Dante 1v1 if he where to give in to the black rage.
Come to think of it, "greatest astartes" in terms of personal achievements could actually go to Mephisto. The guy is the only one to defeat the black rage where 10.000 years of Marines have all been trying and failed. Not huge of an galactic impact but in personal restraint no one has litteraly ever done it before.
There isn't much fluff or tabletop to back him up, but Wolf Lord Bran Redmaw of the Space Mutts might be a contender to beat Black Rage Dante.
Bran's company is rumoured to be pretty heavily touched by the curse of the Wulfen. Information on his methods is sketchy at best but the consistent detail is his company's enemies were usually torn to pieces. Bran himself is believed to control his own curse - able to unleash and supress it.
Vampire vs Werewolf.
Put me down for overall greatest one all things considered to be Abbadon. He is THE guy for chaos space marines. His leadership, combat ability and actual achievements dwarf that of any other astartes. Yeah there are other super great warriors and leader, but none can claim to have almost half of the setting revolving around them and their mission.
That is, if you only include as Astartes the space marines that remained loyal forever. And Adeptus Astartes are defined by their loyalty and service to the Imperium.
If you include non-Astartes space marines (as in: humans augmented in this certain way, loyalties be damned) then it would have to be Erebus. While he was most likely just a puppet, he was in a pivotal position, all things considered.
Of course, the only thing that really matters if how well the Astartes work as a whole. There's bound to be peaks but they don't matter that much in the grand scheme of things.
Zahariel El'Zurias. Either he's Cypher and has been travelling through time for 10,000 years fixing the timeline so that humanity isn't wiped out, or he was the original Cypher and set everything into motion that the subsequent Cyphers would keep upholding his legacy. Also he was almost one of the founding members of the Grey Knights. Seems pretty cool to me.
