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There are several petty badass heresy-era Astartes, Sharrowkyn (shot Fulgrim in the face, twice outclassed then killed Lucius-thought to be the best swordsman of the legions), Alexis Polux-out fought and out thought 2 primarchs. Garviel Loken: defeated Lucius too, defeated Khârn, came close to deafeating Abbadon, survived an exterminatus and then became a founder of the Grey Knights.

Swagmisund is the only true answer.

Draigo, Gabriel Angelos, Cato Sicarius, Pedro Kantor.... There are far too many of them but if I had to choose one it'd be Marneus Calgar, obviously, as he's one of the top dogs of the Imperium, messed up Avatar of Khaine with his fists, and is surpassed only by Guilliman and of course, me.

BaconUprising wrote:
There are several petty badass heresy-era Astartes, Sharrowkyn (shot Fulgrim in the face, twice outclassed then killed Lucius-thought to be the best swordsman of the legions), Alexis Polux-out fought and out thought 2 primarchs. Garviel Loken: defeated Lucius too, defeated Khârn, came close to deafeating Abbadon, survived an exterminatus and then became a founder of the Grey Knights.

Whilst I agree with you in certain respects Bacon, there is much speculation as to the true founder of the GK. Abaddon states that it can't be his "wayward brother". Many assume he's referring to either Loken or Qruze, and therefore would eliminate him from the running.

 blood ravens addiction wrote:
, messed up Avatar of Khaine with his fists,

That not an achievment. It's like bragging you defeated a training dummy.

 JustaerinAtTheWall wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:
There are several petty badass heresy-era Astartes, Sharrowkyn (shot Fulgrim in the face, twice outclassed then killed Lucius-thought to be the best swordsman of the legions), Alexis Polux-out fought and out thought 2 primarchs. Garviel Loken: defeated Lucius too, defeated Khârn, came close to deafeating Abbadon, survived an exterminatus and then became a founder of the Grey Knights.

Whilst I agree with you in certain respects Bacon, there is much speculation as to the true founder of the GK. Abaddon states that it can't be his "wayward brother". Many assume he's referring to either Loken or Qruze, and therefore would eliminate him from the running.

Honestly I have no idea at all. I heard some time back that after surving Istaavn he and Garro want on to find the Grey Knights, there's a very good chance I'm wrong. But all that aside, Loken is quite the badass, he just strikes me as far more mentally and tactically flexible than almost any other marine. He arguably beats the 3 greatest legio astartes of the Heresy, maybe of all time: Khârn (Kharn is undoubtedly a better fighter than Loken, and yet he is soundly beaten when Loken out-thinks him, launching him into the path of a landraider and then ducking into cover). Lucius -often referred to as the greatest swordsman in the Legions, a formidable dualist, beaten by Lokan-he realises that he cannot fight him blade to blade and so injects a physical aspect into the duel, laying him out flat and winning. And lastly vs Abbadon. If you read the account of their duel on Istavaan you soon realise just how badly outclassed Abbadon is on this occasion, Loken is fighting with a friggin chainsword, Abbadon is fighting with a Paragon Blade and powerfist. Loken in power armour, Abbadon in terminator armour. If you read the novel Betrayer the issues of fighting chainblade vs power weapon is made clear, it's nigh impossible. And Abbadon is the one knocked into the rubble at Loken's mercy, in the passage Loken turns to see Toragadon beheaded by Aximand. In that time Abbadon manages to free himself from the rubble. Loken could have killed Abbadon in this time and nearly does anyway, he drives a chainsword, yes a chainsword through terminator plate by pure anger alone, Abbadon is eventually saved by what is made clear to be the additional strength afforded to him by terminator plate.
So yes I'll chalk that up as a win for Loken. Oh yeah and he survives a viral bombardment and a firstorm, plus a building falling on him before returning to fight for the Imperium. There can't be many Astartes who have managed feats like this

LightKing wrote:
Didn't Sharrowkyn wreck Fulgrim in a fight or something?

Yeah, he sniped Fulgrim and bested Lucius in combat.

Saul Tarvitz also beat Lucius is close combat. Pulled the same stunt Loken did and even gives Lucius a heads up.

 King Pariah wrote:
Saul Tarvitz also beat Lucius is close combat. Pulled the same stunt Loken did and even gives Lucius a heads up.

Indeed, he actually copied Loken

No astartes alive in the 41st millenium qualifies.

I think we need to make some clarification here. The OP said GREATEST astartes, but thats open to some interpretation. Are we voting for most badass astartes (who I agree would have to be Loken), or most influential/prominent astartes (i.e dante, calgar, logan etc)?

OP asks Accomplishments and legacies?

It's only between Erebus and Abaddon. One split the Imperium in two and the other is its most feared enemy and threatens to destroy it even now. I lean towards Erebus. OK, hes not smashing faces or leading black crusades, but the results of his actions prior to and during the Heresy have had far more impact than any other marine. The corruption of Lorgar and the legions and the creation of the ruinstorm set a chain of events that destroyed hope for mankind. Yea he hasn't done much interesting for awhile, but his past actions have far reaching effects on the imperium every day. If Abaddon manages the topple the Imperium, he takes the #1 spot.


The 40k chapter master votes just don't do it for me. The descriptions of 40k SM heroes mostly read like propaganda. If Calgar and Dante's actions were in say M35, would they be anything more than a paragraph in a codex? I'm probably biased as a big Heresy reader, but I just don't see the actions of the M41 space marines resonating like the days of the legions. A chapter master is 1/1000. A first captain is 1/100,000+. Also I find it hard to believe the greatest heroes always arise from First Founding Chapters, its mostly just narrative convenience.

BaconUprising wrote:
[He arguably beats the 3 greatest legio astartes of the Heresy, maybe of all time: Khârn (Kharn is undoubtedly a better fighter than Loken, and yet he is soundly beaten when Loken out-thinks him, launching him into the path of a landraider and then ducking into cover). Lucius -often referred to as the greatest swordsman in the Legions, a formidable dualist, beaten by Lokan-he realises that he cannot fight him blade to blade and so injects a physical aspect into the duel, laying him out flat and winning.

I think it's telling that Kharn was beating Loken until he was lucky enough for a land raider to pass by. It was quite evident that in a straight up fight Kharn would have demolished Loken. Lucius hasn't really been portrayed as top tier. He routinely gets beaten by named characters. It's not really surprising either; his main schtick is that he comes back to life.

Loken isn't the best fighter. Yes kharn was beating him, so was Lucius and Abbadon. They all completely outclassed him ability wise. But winning fights isn't all about skill with a blade, or terminator armour, or anger. Loken represents is dude who brings a gun to a knife fight, he fights in a way that will let him win, not a way that is 'honourable'. And overall I think he's one of if not THE best Astarte duellist in the whole 30k setting, he never lost, even to the warmaster to be while wielding monsterously weaker tools. It's not pretty, but the reality is war is not pretty. Loken embodies the true spirit of the Luna Wolves/SoH, Horus wasn't so much a tactical god likes he's portrayed, he would just use what he needed to at the right time to let him win, overwhelming force applied with precision and by any means necessary-i.e. The virus bombing of Istavaan.
I mean, you can rationalise it any way you want, but history remembers the victors, if Kharn wasn't so plated in his 40k plot armour he'd have died there and then. He may have been winning, yet he lost. The fact he was winning means nothing. Horus was beating the emperor, badly . But he lost. The loyalist didn't decide they'd give him half the Imperium because he put up a good fight. To the victor the spoils

BaconUprising wrote:
Loken isn't the best fighter. Yes kharn was beating him, so was Lucius and Abbadon. They all completely outclassed him ability wise. But winning fights isn't all about skill with a blade, or terminator armour, or anger. Loken represents is dude who brings a gun to a knife fight, he fights in a way that will let him win, not a way that is 'honourable'. And overall I think he's one of if not THE best Astarte duellist in the whole 30k setting, he never lost, even to the warmaster to be while wielding monsterously weaker tools. It's not pretty, but the reality is war is not pretty. Loken embodies the true spirit of the Luna Wolves/SoH, Horus wasn't so much a tactical god likes he's portrayed, he would just use what he needed to at the right time to let him win, overwhelming force applied with precision and by any means necessary-i.e. The virus bombing of Istavaan.
I mean, you can rationalise it any way you want, but history remembers the victors, if Kharn wasn't so plated in his 40k plot armour he'd have died there and then. He may have been winning, yet he lost. The fact he was winning means nothing. Horus was beating the emperor, badly . But he lost. The loyalist didn't decide they'd give him half the Imperium because he put up a good fight. To the victor the spoils

Ut's true that you can summarize the debate by this question : Will the strongest one win, or is the one who wins the strongest ?

Nykona "Mary Sue" Sharrowkyn is obviously the best fighter, sniper, and master of stealth to ever have existed.

Marneus "Defeats Ork Waaaghs single-handedly" Calgar also ranks pretty high.

But in all seriousness, I find it very difficult to take them seriously due to their utter lack of flaws.

Sevatar, for actually being the only one capable of gathering the Night Lords (Decimus may have a word about that though)
Abaddon, for creating a Legion-strength Warband
Huron Blackheart, for creating a Legion-strength Warband
Dante, for all his campaigns
Tu'Shan, for being the closest thing to a humanitarian in the 41st millennia
Azrael, for all his campaigns
Alexis Pollux, for effectively having beaten a Primarch at void war
Loken, for holding out against the might of several Primarchs on Isstvan III
Malakim Phoros, for back-handedly insulting the UMs.

Sharrowkin:

Oh, ill just help inherit my primarch`s teleporting-invisibility ability.
Oh, ill just survive the greatest massacre in imperial history.
And rescue a Iron Father
And help the Iron Hands
And best Lucius, the greatest swordsman in the legion with the best swordsmen, in combat.
I`ll just do that again. And kill him.
Then, how about I headshot his primarch?
Yep, done all that.

BaconUprising wrote:
Loken isn't the best fighter. Yes kharn was beating him, so was Lucius and Abbadon. They all completely outclassed him ability wise. But winning fights isn't all about skill with a blade, or terminator armour, or anger. Loken represents is dude who brings a gun to a knife fight, he fights in a way that will let him win, not a way that is 'honourable'.

Loken got lucky with Kharn. Take away something beyond his control (and enemy Land Raider going past and not seeing him) and he would have lost. Kharn is the greater fighter (in personal combat at least). Loken demonstrated great awareness and initiative but long was in his favour. Lucius got beaten the same way twice so he clearly has a significant weak point there.

I think it's a little unfair to say Kharn was covered by plot armour when the loyalists holding off the tratiors for so long was entirely due to plot armour. Plus the Land Raider coming past to save Loken arguably constitutes as plot armour.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:
Loken isn't the best fighter. Yes kharn was beating him, so was Lucius and Abbadon. They all completely outclassed him ability wise. But winning fights isn't all about skill with a blade, or terminator armour, or anger. Loken represents is dude who brings a gun to a knife fight, he fights in a way that will let him win, not a way that is 'honourable'.

Loken got lucky with Kharn. Take away something beyond his control (and enemy Land Raider going past and not seeing him) and he would have lost. Kharn is the greater fighter (in personal combat at least). Loken demonstrated great awareness and initiative but long was in his favour. Lucius got beaten the same way twice so he clearly has a significant weak point there.

I think it's a little unfair to say Kharn was covered by plot armour when the loyalists holding off the tratiors for so long was entirely due to plot armour. Plus the Land Raider coming past to save Loken arguably constitutes as plot armour.

I agree, in terms of plot armour, Loken kinda is one the best example throughout the whole Horus Heresy serie. Kharne's can at least be explained by the interest Khorne has in him.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:
Loken isn't the best fighter. Yes kharn was beating him, so was Lucius and Abbadon. They all completely outclassed him ability wise. But winning fights isn't all about skill with a blade, or terminator armour, or anger. Loken represents is dude who brings a gun to a knife fight, he fights in a way that will let him win, not a way that is 'honourable'.

Loken got lucky with Kharn. Take away something beyond his control (and enemy Land Raider going past and not seeing him) and he would have lost. Kharn is the greater fighter (in personal combat at least). Loken demonstrated great awareness and initiative but long was in his favour. Lucius got beaten the same way twice so he clearly has a significant weak point there.

I think it's a little unfair to say Kharn was covered by plot armour when the loyalists holding off the tratiors for so long was entirely due to plot armour. Plus the Land Raider coming past to save Loken arguably constitutes as plot armour.

Was Khârn even beating him? I haven't read the passage in a long time, I remember it being pretty even. I think Angron summarised it well when his argument with Russ. That warriors who don't fear death and fight with nothing held back will always beat warriors who have something to lose, and yet kharn lost and would not be in the 40k setting unless he "somehow survived and was pulled off the dozer blade going straight through his chest" with no side effects. Khorne had nothing to do with Kharn first survival. His 40k model sure did though. I think if you're going to start nitpicking on outside influences on duels then a lot of them need to be discredited, Sharrowkyn vs Lucius, Fulgrim vs Ferrus, Big E vs Horus, Sanguinius vs Horus. All have external influences on the duel itself.

BaconUprising wrote:

Was Khârn even beating him? I haven't read the passage in a long time, I remember it being pretty even. I think Angron summarised it well when his argument with Russ. That warriors who don't fear death and fight with nothing held back will always beat warriors who have something to lose, and yet kharn lost and would not be in the 40k setting unless he "somehow survived and was pulled off the dozer blade going straight through his chest" with no side effects. Khorne had nothing to do with Kharn first survival. His 40k model sure did though. I think if you're going to start nitpicking on outside influences on duels then a lot of them need to be discredited, Sharrowkyn vs Lucius, Fulgrim vs Ferrus, Big E vs Horus, Sanguinius vs Horus. All have external influences on the duel itself.

I suppose it's debatable who was winning. Loken was fighting back and the fight wasn't certain. Being impaled on dozer blades wouldn't necessarily kill most Marines unless they punctured both hearts. The way Loken won was still due to the interference of an outside factor so it doesn't mean he is a greater fighter. I haven't read the books with Sharrowkyn but Fulgrim vs Ferrus can absolutely be debated (especially the second fight). When talking about who is a greater fighter then I would look at who seems more likely to win consistently in a "fair" fight. Generally I'd say Kharn would beat Loken.

However, rereading the original post I have realised that this is kind of off topic since he was not asking for the most best warrior so... agree to disagree?

I don't disagree though, I don't consider Loken the best fighter, but I do consider him one of if not the best duellist. And my original post wasn't off topic. I think beating the 3 greatest Legion Astartes: Abbadon, Kharn, Lucius. Surviving an exterminatus and being buried alive under a temple+surviving to rush back and found the Knights errant or GK's does qualify him as a contender for the greatest Astarte

Off Topic question:


What book has Sharrowkyn in it?

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:
Off Topic question:


What book has Sharrowkyn in it?

I can only remember Angel Exterminatus right now.

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:
Off Topic question:


What book has Sharrowkyn in it?

Angel Exterminatus, Seventh Serpent, easy google search

He's also in the short story Kryptos

I think Nathaniel Garro is probably the greatest Astartes there has ever been.

Konvak Lann is also up there I think. After being declared lacking in faith he was forced to lead his Astartes, along with 30 other Chapters, into the Eye of Terror purging at least 400 worlds. Where other Chapters fell to Chaos Lann and his Vorpal Swords left the Eye and revealed the true nature of their accuser, Saint Basilius, showing that he was in fact a corrupted agent of the Dark Powers.

The legions didn't have a threat that was as great or greater then themselves. 40k era Marines have to deal with Necrons, Tyranids and chaos. The 30k era Marines almost lost when a single new faction was introduced, chaos. Then Immediately almost lost again vs orks. Honestly the 30k era astartes greatest accomplishment was how bad they screwed things up fighting among themselves. Hence Erebus and/or Abbadon takes the cake.

On the loyalist side I'm holding on to the firelords chapter master, if the theory about them being the legion of the damned is correct. Did your chapter master/primarch sacrifice his chapter to go time travelling to ensure the Imperiums survival?

That Death Company marine that killed an entire squad of Chaos Terminators with a hand flamer I vote for that guy.

BaconUprising wrote:
I don't disagree though, I don't consider Loken the best fighter, but I do consider him one of if not the best duellist. And my original post wasn't off topic. I think beating the 3 greatest Legion Astartes: Abbadon, Kharn, Lucius. Surviving an exterminatus and being buried alive under a temple+surviving to rush back and found the Knights errant or GK's does qualify him as a contender for the greatest Astarte

And Kharns got plot armour you say.

the ancient wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:
I don't disagree though, I don't consider Loken the best fighter, but I do consider him one of if not the best duellist. And my original post wasn't off topic. I think beating the 3 greatest Legion Astartes: Abbadon, Kharn, Lucius. Surviving an exterminatus and being buried alive under a temple+surviving to rush back and found the Knights errant or GK's does qualify him as a contender for the greatest Astarte

And Kharns got plot armour you say.

Every major character has plot armour. This is a fantasy universe embroiled in a galaxy spanning civil war, frontline characters would in reality almost certainly not survive multiple battles. But yeah Loken is pretty tanky, returning from the dead is sort of his schtic. Although so does Kharn, Lucius and several others