While chatting about a bit about the... less than optimal rules writing of FoC (like giving an IK Eternal Warrior or a S+2 AP2 weapon) a mental image developed.
An IK with Thunderstrike Gauntlet/Ravager destroys a Land Raider in Close Combat.
Via Hurl! he can throw it in the form of a 5" S7 blast at a nearby target.
Now we assume the target is a Kastellan Robot.
Said Kastellan Robot is hit, wounded... and saves it with a 6 on his 5++... reflecting the thrown Land Raider back into the IK's face with an Adam-West-Batman like "BOING!" popping up.
While I don't have the exact rules in front of me and the reflecting happens only to shooting attacks, for gag and giggles, we assume that Hurl! is a shooting attack since it has a weapon profile and all.
A Land Raider being ping-ponged around had me surpressing laughter for half a minute while at work to avoid strange looks from my co-worker.
What other, frankly, insane but possible situations can you conjure up?
A Smart Missile System shooting at a unit that is inside a foot-thick steel box with no entry or exit points. Ignore Cover, Ignores LoS, Ignores Physics.
A bike-mounted model in front of his unit of non-bikers using Jink to prevent shots from hitting his unit. "I'll just dodge out of the way of this bullet so that it doesn't hit the squad behind me" Derp.
A massive psionic buildup of monumental proportions around a Farseer sees the sky darken over the battlefield, any loose debris and rubble begins floating of its own volition. Lightning arcs between various buildings and metallic objects as the air around her ionizes. Psychic screaming can be heard ringing in the minds of every living being on the battlefield. The Farseer rises into the air, buoyed with her own rage, energies of literal hell coalescing around her hands. Then, without warning...
It all stops. Farseer drops back down on her feet and sighs heavily. "Ynnead damnit..." she mutters as a loud hissing sound emanates from her ghost helm and a small purple sphere, referred to crudely by the mon'keigh as a "warp charge", ejects from a hidden port in her helm. "Fething snake eyes..."
Someone fires a missile at a squad of boyz through a forest, half of the models hit pass their cover saves, half don't. The missile simultaneously hits a tree and explodes at the orks feet.
Had a rare set of circumstances where we invoked wobbly model syndrome to place a dreadnought in an upper level of a terrain piece because moving him around in the ground level would require you to remove a large model that blocked the area. Made it hard to see.
Later, we would described it as the time Venerable Brother Duane "THE BLOCK" Johnson ripped down a wall, lept up to the second floor, and delivered a crushing People's Elbow down upon an unsuspecting commie Riptide.
Knee-Hobbler the Ratling was having a bad day.
Shooting at the Chaos Space Marines with a sniper rifle barely succeeded in making them angry, which was easily done.
After the 13th ineffective shot, he noticed a marine looked like he had eaten a grenade and was distorting all strange in his armor.
He exploded.
Standing in the red mist was an enormous daemon with an axe and a whip and looking even MORE angry than the guy he replaced.
"I AM A GOD!!! I WILL DESTROY YOU ALL!!!" Roared the daemon.
"Excellent" thought Knee-Hobbler: "I eat gods for breakfast.", he chambered a round and took aim.
Isn't it amazing how anything using mainly toughness for protection is such an incredible victim to poison or sniper rifles?
You could easily replace "Knee-Hobbler" the Ratling to "Knee-Blender" the Dark Eldar.
Nurgle at least should view poisons like a fine wine, which is not the case.
Bloodthirsters roars in anger, slashing his whip and locating his next target.
The wounds he has suffered during the battle have just angered him more, his torn up wings barely let him fly, and he is missing patches of daemonic flesh all over his horrible body.
He locates a squad of putrid tau, currently fleeing from the hulking beast, his broken wings carry him into the melee as he slaughters all the tau but a single drone.
The Drone then proceeds to fly and hit the bloodthirster on the head, felling the mighty beast forever.
A volley of shells is fired in overwatch at the charging Wolf Guard Yven Stonejaw and his rhino sized Thunderwolf Tiptoe, mid-charge Stonejaw leaps over the front of his mount, deflects all the shells with his energy shield then cleanly re-mounts and follows through with the charge.
I understand that some energy fields cover their entire user but Storm Shields seem to be able to cover a Space Marine Bike or Thunderwolf and their respective riders even though they have a bulky shield piece that is clearly the "front".
A knight, tattered heraldry dedicated to glorious Grandfather Nurgle, causing the very ground the shake with each lumbering step moved forward through the battlefield. The pilot screaming curses at his fellow Nurgle psyker who just prior shrouded the Tau Stormsurge from his scanners. He grinned as he readied his bulk for a ramming attack against the monstrous machine. The pilot let out a sinister cackle as he prepared his charge...
A Breacher Shas'Ui, noble auxiliary of the Tau Empire stepped forward, raising her pulse blaster in one arm and screaming as she charged forward into the knight. It was the hope of her commander that she could protect the Stormsurge for long enough for it fire off one more volley. For reasons beyond the Tau commander the knight did not simply step over the breachers hitting its knees with the butt of their guns, but instead kept flailing around in what he could only imagine was an attempt at attack for the remainder of the battle.
The inability to shoot into melee sometimes makes sense, sometimes not. For example:
The marine tactical sqaud had been ambushed by an understrength brood of termagaunts. Engaging in bitter, hand to claw combat, the marines slowly overwhelming the battered aliens, and one by one the termaguants fell. As the last pair of 'gaunts made thier final stand, the towering form of a carniflex appeared behind the marines, ready to unleash a torrent of bio-plasma that would leave nothing but scorched bones and melted ceramite behind......which it elected to refrain from doing, least it's attack also kill one, or worse both, of the termagaunts. The hive mind dared not take such a ruthless action, least the hive mind decide that the hive mind was too callous with it's troops and revolt against the hive mind.
Battlegrinder wrote: The inability to shoot into melee sometimes makes sense, sometimes not. For example:
The marine tactical sqaud had been ambushed by an understrength brood of termagaunts. Engaging in bitter, hand to claw combat, the marines slowly overwhelming the battered aliens, and one by one the termaguants fell. As the last pair of 'gaunts made thier final stand, the towering form of a carniflex appeared behind the marines, ready to unleash a torrent of bio-plasma that would leave nothing but scorched bones and melted ceramite behind......which it elected to refrain from doing, least it's attack also kill one, or worse both, of the termagaunts. The hive mind dared not take such a ruthless action, least the hive mind decide that the hive mind was too callous with it's troops and revolt against the hive mind.
That has popped into my head on so many occassions. I think it actually fits really well with some armies but not so much with others.
Guard would do it "That's it boys! Hold them down while I aim this Demolisher Canon at them. No! Don't let them up, keep them in the sights. Of course you're going to die with them - the fact you only just figured that out means your family really are better off without you."
I'd like to see risk and reward shooting into melee similar to when a blast scatters over melee. Every shot that misses its target hits your own stuff.
Big question though, what happens when Warp Spiders get fired on in melee?
Vindicare Assassin Shoots a Kastellan woth Turbo Penetrators
Wounds
Rolls a 6 on D3 Wounds
"Do i get Cover Saves?"
No
"Armour?"
AP2
"Invun then"
Yes
Rolls a 6 On Invun
GenjiDeflect.jpg
Vindicare Fails his Cover Save
Headshot.jpg
Vindicare only has 3 wounds
Dead.jpg
I had a big Squiggoth do a difficult terrain test to enter a ruined building, in the end we decided it just went through the wall before charging a StormSword and failing to even dent the armour.
gummyofallbears wrote: Bloodthirsters roars in anger, slashing his whip and locating his next target.
The wounds he has suffered during the battle have just angered him more, his torn up wings barely let him fly, and he is missing patches of daemonic flesh all over his horrible body.
He locates a squad of putrid tau, currently fleeing from the hulking beast, his broken wings carry him into the melee as he slaughters all the tau but a single drone.
The Drone then proceeds to fly and hit the bloodthirster on the head, felling the mighty beast forever.
I'll see your Bloodthirster, and raise you a Fateweaver.
That actually happened with my Tau Drones. I did a write-up of it, fluff-wise, on reddit somewhere...
A few editions ago, a pair of my Gun Drones from a wrecked Hammerhead assaulted Fateweaver, inflicted a single wound using their WS 2 and S3, Fateweaver failed his save, failed his rerolled save, and then failed his test to stick around, removing himself from the battlefield. One of the Gun Drones survived.
Justification: Fateweaver, though immensely powerful, is ultimately still not infinitely so - of all the things on the battlefield whose fate he needed to be aware of and modify, a single pair of stupid AI Drones shouldn't need to be more than cursorily considered in their effect on the battle, especially their effect when forced to engage at the sort of close ranges they tend to do poorly in.
But the stupid AI came to an unusual, difficult-to-predict decision - that giant bird-like enemy entity wasn't paying attention to its right flank, and the momentum of a Drone going full speed at its face might be able to distract it when the Crisis Suits arrived. The survival of the incoming suits was noted as being more tactically significant than the continued presence of the Gun Drones in the battle, and the AI determined that sacrificing its parts was ultimately for the Greater Good.
And this one isn't particularly bad, it's just amusing:
Brother-Sergeant Amadeus and his squad choose to fire into the heretical guardsmen. The Squads Bolters fire on fully automatic, needing no control to hit the filthy heretics. The torrent of fire is withering, many of the heretics die.
Brother Rold, aims his lascannon, "F k this guardsman in particular" he says as he pulls the trigger. A single heretic falls to his mighty weapon.
The flamer wielding Imperial misses the Dark Eldar Venom entirely because the Flickerfield made it seem like the target was ~10m to the left. Somehow the kabalites inside get barbecued anyway.
Here's one, coming from my hatred of the fact that Tau have to take morale checks when stupid drones die:
A bunch of Space Marines with bolters fire their weapons at a Riptide battlesuit. Bolts ping harmlessly off of the suit's tough armor. The pilot of the Riptide notices one of his shielded missile drones fall to the ground, sparking. "OMG my drone died RUN FOR THE HILLS!"
Another dumb one is the new ruling stating that only one guy can throw a grenade in CC:
"Okay, everybody hit this Helbrute with the butt of your bolters. No, only I get to throw a krak grenade. Why? Cuz I'm the sergeant and I said so!"
I think my favorite is sternngaurd vets and guards men vets are as good at shooting. I mean surviving one battle compared to 100 years of constant training and battle are pretty much the same thing right?
mew28 wrote: I think my favorite is sternngaurd vets and guards men vets are as good at shooting. I mean surviving one battle compared to 100 years of constant training and battle are pretty much the same thing right?
Are you nuts! Shooting at a towering wraithknight, when it's still fighting with 2 conscripts. What if you accidentally shoot 2 stories lower and hurt the men! Have a heart!
A rolling, thunderous battlewagon propelled by the tremendous faith of it's twenty boyz inside drives over a sprig of parsley. It's immediately immobilized.
Ashiraya wrote: Gretchin successfully parry attacks made by the Avatar of Khaine 33% of the time.
I know this thread is a bit of fun, bit my imagination is too good for this stuff.
The quoted example for me would be the Avatar of Khaine just keeps striding past, ignoring the pathetic Gretchen, swatting then away when they get irritating, sometimes "accidentally" killing them!
A Guardsman hit in the face with a bolt gun? No, his "armour save" was his helmet resting on the post next to him got hit by a shot while he was cowering hoping the marine thought he dead and moving on.
Everything is justifyable, even if a "hit" actually hit the building next to it, showing some rubble etc.
Captain Lazarus, hero of his Chapter, strides to battle in his ornate Terminator Armour, bedecked with the glorious commendations of countless battles, his heroic deeds carved into the sacred ceramite. In his left hand he carries a crackling Storm Shield. Behind him a squad of Tactical Marines take heart from the paragon of the Imperium who bravely leads from the fore.
Bolt rounds, autocannon shots and krak missiles impact harmlessly against his might armour that shakes the very ground as he walks. Sizzling plasma detonates against his shield and still he marches on, bellowing challenges at his foes...
...until he fails 2 saves, at which point he starts cravenly tossing Tactical Marines in front of every single lasgun, autopistol and bow and arrow shot that might find a weak point in his defences.
Forgefiend takes direct hit from a Vortex missile.
Walks out completely unharmed....
Flying monster makes a controlled descent from the sky but cannot charge.
Another Flying monster gets SHOT DOWN and crashes into the floor at crazy speed, then promptly charges the nearest unit...
Mega armoured Warboss caries an entire squad of Lootas with enough stability not to screw up their aim
JimOnMars wrote: A rolling, thunderous battlewagon propelled by the tremendous faith of it's twenty boyz inside drives over a sprig of parsley. It's immediately immobilized.
The almighty Land Raider, the Godhammer of the Adeptus Astartes, the chariot of the Emperors Angels of Death, the invincible bulk that crushes mason underneath it's mighty treads... drove over a stiff bush and threw a track.
Some models should just be able to ignore dangerous terrain, yo.
Daemon Prince destroyer of a thousand worlds, while he was mortal, faces down a big battle machine. He roars, this is what he was made for, he is a master of combat, honing his skills in the warp against countless daemons. This will please my god!
Knight titan/wraith knight/stormsurge lifts a leg really high...
...Brother captain *insert generic name here* spots the enemy in the distance and they aim their heavy weapons at him. His body is raked with heavy bolter fire, many pierce his armour, he is bleeding heavily, he can feel the cold embrace of death.... and suddenly.... *pop* the wounds heal...he passed his armour save.
Gargantuan creature stomps on a Space Marine,
Space Marine is fine.
Gargantuan creature stomps on a land Raider and causes a massive hole in it's hull......
A squad of Berzerkers roar praise to their bloody good before falling on a regiment of PDF forces no more than ten feet away (snake eyes rolled for the charge).
Khorne facepalms as the squad all fall to the floor as if in a slapstick comedy e.g. slip on banana skin, tied shoelaces, etc.
...Brother captain *insert generic name here* spots the enemy in the distance and they aim their heavy weapons at him. His body is raked with heavy bolter fire, many pierce his armour, he is bleeding heavily, he can feel the cold embrace of death.... and suddenly.... *pop* the wounds heal...he passed his armour save.
Even though failed "to wound" rolls represented hits that wouldn't have caused much damage to begin with?
In fairness though, it made more sense in WHFB - being grazed by an arrow or sword probably happened a lot in history than with a grenade launcher.
Jbz` wrote: Gargantuan creature stomps on a Space Marine,
Space Marine is fine.
Gargantuan creature stomps on a land Raider and causes a massive hole in it's hull......
Ever tried crushing ants with your foot? Its possible to (apparently) step on them (and think you have) without touching them.
Carnifex has me laughing every time.
Through every book and fluff article it pegs it as a rampaging engine of destruction.
Yet charges a unit then stops to have a lunch break because they strike first.
Why is something that strong charging into a unit (like a horribly mutated rhino) and getting hit first? Lol.
It's like getting hit by a truck but managing to kick it out of the way.
Jbz` wrote: Gargantuan creature stomps on a Space Marine,
Space Marine is fine.
Gargantuan creature stomps on a land Raider and causes a massive hole in it's hull......
Ever tried crushing ants with your foot? Its possible to (apparently) step on them (and think you have) without touching them.
Gargantuan creature stomping a marine is more along the lines of us doing it on a cat than an ant.
Battlegrinder wrote: The inability to shoot into melee sometimes makes sense, sometimes not. For example:
The marine tactical sqaud had been ambushed by an understrength brood of termagaunts. Engaging in bitter, hand to claw combat, the marines slowly overwhelming the battered aliens, and one by one the termaguants fell. As the last pair of 'gaunts made thier final stand, the towering form of a carniflex appeared behind the marines, ready to unleash a torrent of bio-plasma that would leave nothing but scorched bones and melted ceramite behind......which it elected to refrain from doing, least it's attack also kill one, or worse both, of the termagaunts. The hive mind dared not take such a ruthless action, least the hive mind decide that the hive mind was too callous with it's troops and revolt against the hive mind.
That has popped into my head on so many occassions. I think it actually fits really well with some armies but not so much with others.
Guard would do it "That's it boys! Hold them down while I aim this Demolisher Canon at them. No! Don't let them up, keep them in the sights. Of course you're going to die with them - the fact you only just figured that out means your family really are better off without you."
I'd like to see risk and reward shooting into melee similar to when a blast scatters over melee. Every shot that misses its target hits your own stuff.
Big question though, what happens when Warp Spiders get fired on in melee?
Chaos Renegades with some character is allowed to fire into combat and even target its own models when firing barrage/blast/Large blast weapons
Tau shieldwall and firewarriors going to ground to hide from basilisk shots from 20' away. roll 6's on cover, basilisks are wrecked without having seen or been in the same territory as the enemy.
"FIRE!" (a few moments later) KABOOM!
"What just happened?!"
"Those dirty Tau hid exceptionally well"
Commisar shoots troop in his face, then shoots his own self, not wanting to live in this world anymore.
A loneMarine with a Meltagun levels it at the massive building block sized Stormsword just yards infront of him..... And misses. At point blank range.
The Vindicator depresses its gun to fire on the Stormsword ahead of it and fires. The shot does some kind of boomerang flip mid-air and lands smack bang in the ground about a foot behind the Vindicator, penetrates it and kills it.
Me and my opponent - "wut"?
My Thunderer levels off a shot that flies back down the barrel, detonating in the breach and scaring a few nearby Guardsmen to death.
Macro cannon hits a Typhon, wrecking it and causing it to go nuclear, but the Librarian standing next to it doesnt notice anything more than a slight breeze.
Actual quote from the first Portent tournament a few years back.
My original Death Guard, fighting Orks. Dread ended up immobilised. This was 3.5 btw.
'I roll to penetrate the rear armour of the dreadnought with my Purple-helmeted Nob with his huge choppa.'
Fit of giggles here. The Ork player had done squad markings by different helmets or shoulder plates - one Mob was unfortunately purple. (My own Death Guard had runes on their bases.)
"It penetrates...and the dreadnought explodes."
Deadpan silence.
Hearing that your mind went bad places...
And did not picture a giant, purple armoured ork swinging a rather large axe into the back of a daemonically possessed walker, did it?
...Brother captain *insert generic name here* spots the enemy in the distance and they aim their heavy weapons at him. His body is raked with heavy bolter fire, many pierce his armour, he is bleeding heavily, he can feel the cold embrace of death.... and suddenly.... *pop* the wounds heal...he passed his armour save.
So, really, just flip "to wound" rolls with armour saves in the order. Roll to hit...see if the armour saves it...then roll to wound. (if you want to stick with this method at all).
The quoted example for me would be the Avatar of Khaine just keeps striding past, ignoring the pathetic Gretchen, swatting then away when they get irritating, sometimes "accidentally" killing them!l
They are still tarpitting it though!
Speaking of gretchin and avatars, I have seen an Avatar lose all 4 wounds to gretchin overwatch.
The quoted example for me would be the Avatar of Khaine just keeps striding past, ignoring the pathetic Gretchen, swatting then away when they get irritating, sometimes "accidentally" killing them!l
They are still tarpitting it though!
Speaking of gretchin and avatars, I have seen an Avatar lose all 4 wounds to gretchin overwatch.
I still see it as the avatar calmly striding.
Who knows what super weapon with a big red button those pesky Gretchen got their hands on?
10' tall, genetically created/modified, indoctrinated super soldiers wearing Fusion Reactors and Power Armor swinging Chainswords and riding motorcycles into close combat. Always absurd to me.
Tamwulf wrote: 10' tall, genetically created/modified, indoctrinated super soldiers wearing Fusion Reactors and Power Armor swinging Chainswords and riding motorcycles into close combat. Always absurd to me.
Autarch: Hey mr Farseer you know that spell that worked really well in the last battle, can you cast it again today?
Farseer: No sorry I know it would have been good but I picked 3 spell books at random to learn from last night, 2 of them are pretty much useless but I read them anyway.
Deep strike raptors scatter onto a single guardsman:
1. Guardsman headshots the sergeant, causing him to veer into the raptor on his side, sucking his helmet and head into the jet intake, second turbine snaps off and impales three more raptors through the stomach
2-4. Guardsman goes 'Batter Up!' with his lasgun and knocks the entire unit over 1km away in game scale
5+. Guardsman does meanlook.jpg and sends them back into the warp
Someone throws their Demolition charge. Wind suddenly blows really hard and it flys back into the guy and blasts him to pieces. OR He tries to throw it with all his might and it just slips from his hand and explodes at his feet.
Fruzzle wrote: My opponent once fired a battlecannon point blank and it scattered behind the Russ, clipping and weapon destroyed killed the battlecannon.....wut?
As I've posted in a different thread: the legend of Son Goku's Terminators...
Deep strikes with 'is entourage of termies alongside a full assault team, grouphugging like it's the superbowl.
'nators have lit up 80% of a guardsmen squad and little else occurs. All brace for the inevitable laser light show on crack.
1. Lasguns kill one, ONE member of the entourage.
2. Executioner tank overheats the main gun, one of the sponsons lands smack dab in the middle of the assault marines, killing all but 2. The second sponson landing danger close to another guard squad.
-Warnings are hurled down shouting tubes and raucous laughter from the peanut gallery for a few minutes.
3. grenade launcher aimed at assault marines gets caught in Hurricane Andrew and lands square on his allied Ravenwing biker sergeant's hood ornament.
-More raucous laughter and insults hurled at Bobby the egg thrower, breath bated since the shooting phase isn't over yet.
4. laser pointer party goers manage to prove these blood angels could use some more polish for their armour in the near future.
5. Armored sentinel fires plasma cannon...which scatters into the nearby guard squad, killing a grunt and the flamer.
-Police are called in to suppress the rioting peanut gallery, official commentators Jim Johnson and Bob Bifford make comparisons to Dwarf team passing game strategies, and the match is soon called a draw.
TL;DR 8 terminators soak 2/3 of an IG gunline during a turn in which the National Airbending Association held impromptu dance lessons for people in red armour. We learned fast.
A Deathwatch Veteran squad is wiped out by 30K World Eater Bloodwhatsits... Except for the Sergeant whom is stuck in a challenge with the Sergeant of the Bloodwhatsits.
The rest of the Bloodwhatsits spend the next two turns sitting there and watching their sarge chase the Deathwatch sarge around in a circle, futilely beating on his stormshield that the sarge is cowering under in a reminiscence of a Monty Python sketch.
Wraithknight Strides forward to a mere few metres off him (1" really), powered up by his Craftworld Farseer visions of the future *in order to properly predict the future position of the inmobilized Land raider*
It miss (double 2 on dice ) the precog visions allow him to correct the shoot (double 1 on the reroll) .
The Wraithknight throw a Tantrum and kicks with anger the poor Landraider for dodgin his shoots...
Battlegrinder wrote: The inability to shoot into melee sometimes makes sense, sometimes not. For example:
The marine tactical sqaud had been ambushed by an understrength brood of termagaunts. Engaging in bitter, hand to claw combat, the marines slowly overwhelming the battered aliens, and one by one the termaguants fell. As the last pair of 'gaunts made thier final stand, the towering form of a carniflex appeared behind the marines, ready to unleash a torrent of bio-plasma that would leave nothing but scorched bones and melted ceramite behind......which it elected to refrain from doing, least it's attack also kill one, or worse both, of the termagaunts. The hive mind dared not take such a ruthless action, least the hive mind decide that the hive mind was too callous with it's troops and revolt against the hive mind.
That has popped into my head on so many occassions. I think it actually fits really well with some armies but not so much with others.
Guard would do it "That's it boys! Hold them down while I aim this Demolisher Canon at them. No! Don't let them up, keep them in the sights. Of course you're going to die with them - the fact you only just figured that out means your family really are better off without you."
I'd like to see risk and reward shooting into melee similar to when a blast scatters over melee. Every shot that misses its target hits your own stuff.
Big question though, what happens when Warp Spiders get fired on in melee?
Chaos Renegades with some character is allowed to fire into combat and even target its own models when firing barrage/blast/Large blast weapons
Guard/Chaos Guard - I don't care if they get it as a special rule, I just want to see it happen.
Had a beauty today, set up a corridor and tank-shocked a squad of Orks. I got greedy and tank-shocked over the first squad to land on the second.
First squad passes the Leadership test and his boys...um teleport? Burrow into the ground? Jump? Phase out of existance? To evade the Land Raider.
2nd had nowhere to go regardless of leadership results and got crushed.
But the first squad pulled a serious Harry Houdini to get outta that fix.
This occasionally happens in multi-charges and challenges (bearing in mind you can only have one challenge per combat round).
Squad Tacitus engages the vile Tyranid Warriors in deadly hand-to-hand combat, whilst Sergeant Tactitus takes on the cosmic horror of a Tyranid Prime. Whilst the combat is ongoing, a scuttling brood of termagants joins the fray and generally gets under everyone's feet.
The Emperor smiles on the brave and valorous tactical marines as they miraculously slaughter the tyranid warriors, while Tacitus himself weathers the vicious scything swipes of the prime, and delivers a crushing blow with his almighty power fist, dealing 2 wounds. (The first instakilling the prime - assume the sergeant had been buffed by psychic powers to give him that little extra strength as I believe the Prime is T 5.)
Tacitus then stops, refusing to pummel through the horrific beast to squelch one of the termagants. The men look at him bemusedly.
'I can't possibly hit them with my extra attack.' Tactitus explains. 'They're not even the same unit!'
A regiment of traitor guard are on duty on the walls of a fortress.
Suddenly, they can see foot and paw marks appearing on the snow hundreds of metres away, but nothing else. A Drop Pod lands next to them, and a Tactical Squad of Adeptus Astartes disembarks from within.
The Tactical Squad then vanishes in a hiss if displaced air. Suddenly accusations of betrayal, the destruction of a homeworld of a chapter, and heresy can be heard nearby, but not directed at the traitor guard themselves. It's as if someone is arguing just nearby, and making death threats to eachother. Then everybody dies, with no enemy in sight.
It is later deduced by the strategos of the traitor guard that the fortress was attacked by an invisible electrodisplacing wolfstar, accompanied by Grand Master Azrael of the Dark Angels.
Running joke with my friends up at Uni, where a unit being shot at though the corners of three different ruined buildings still has the same cover save as being point blank to a chest high wall:
we imagined every round fired to be like the trailer for Killzone 3, with that bullet passing between three tight window frames, two falling [insert here] having a punch up, through a section of flying drainpipe, and narrowly avoiding hitting a tank shell mid-flight/ being gently blown by a breeze or ordinance explosion, all to land smack dab in the target's forehead (for failing the save).
In short, trick shots. The entire shooting phase, was trick shots.
One that I always came up with was for shots that hit on , wounded on , and got passed by armor save - congratulations, you blew his helmet off. Now he has to pick it up again before he hears the dreaded "Look out Sir!"
And lest we forget the immortal words of wisdom, "if you see Kharne the Betrayer in a unit of 20 cultists, It's not Kharne leading the unit, it's Kharne with 23 wounds (against shooting)".
Erm...something about GEQ dolphin diving in front of bolter rounds to protect the big boss at the front as they all book it towards the German trenches in 1916. Wait, sorry, got my wars mixed up there.
The mortar teams and F/O for the off table bombardments cannot call in corrections for their shots on the squad of Librarians advancing behind the invisible Vindicators because they cannot see the Librarians because the invisible Vindicators block their line of sight.
Typhus, Nurgle's Champion, Host of the Destroyer Hive, unleashing the Plague Wind Spell, Nurgle's Rot Spell, and his max attacks (like 9 or 10), still with all of his Wounds, into a unit of 10 Guard Conscripts (they had been whittled down a bit by a Plague Zombie horde). One Assault Phase later, and Typhus lie dead(er) on the ground as the Guardsman laugh and try not to gag from the smell...
JimOnMars wrote: A rolling, thunderous battlewagon propelled by the tremendous faith of it's twenty boyz inside drives over a sprig of parsley. It's immediately immobilized.
The almighty Land Raider, the Godhammer of the Adeptus Astartes, the chariot of the Emperors Angels of Death, the invincible bulk that crushes mason underneath it's mighty treads... drove over a stiff bush and threw a track.
Some models should just be able to ignore dangerous terrain, yo.
Look at the design of the tracks (this goes for russes and chimera as well). There is no suspension travel at all and the guards at the sides of tracks extend all of the way to the ground. Frankly, it's humorous that they don't get immobilised more often (rubble should be automatic).
Using a Retribution Phalanx formation on my Necrons.
My opponent, seeing a 20 model warrior blob, proceeds to concentrate all fire at them, killing the last one 10" away from his last group of fire warriors.
"Whew, you only have your scarabs and lord left, and I'll easily gun them down!"
NOPE.jpg
20 strong blob auto return on my turn. Within rapid fire range. And so the great atomising of the fire team began, going down in Tau lore as "The great green glancing rape train"
Mek gun grots being immune to lasguns. Coteaz being able to shoot a bazillion times in a turn. Zhadsnark being able to tank shock a stabilized stormsurge and evaporate it.
A Space Marine swings his power sword at a passing Ork boy, slashes through his body armor, prompting an enormous explosion as the Boy's scrap metal armor undergoes nuclear fission from the disruptive energy field tearing its atoms apart. The chaotic battlefield is suddenly washed clean of all life in a blinding flash of light, a wave of heat that turns power armor to ash, and a shockwave that shreds everything in its path for miles as a mushroom cloud rises to the heavens. The few survivors on the outskirts of the battlefield, burned, deafened, blinded, bloody and pitiful, can never forget that day.
And somewhere, in an Imperial weapons lab, a scientist re-reads their notes to try to figure out what went wrong, and comes to the horrifying realization that they accidentally designed a melee weapon that cleaves through armor by making it undergo nuclear fission, and then distributed them across the galaxy without ever testing them.
The Imperium... BURNS.
Oh, supported by rules, not lore.
Umm, okay.
An entire Battle Company of Space Marines faces a single Grot.
When all is said and done, only the Grot is left standing. He slew an entire Battle Company of Space Marines on his own, without ever being touched by one of their attacks.
And this happened because you rely on dice to decide the outcome of things.
Iron Warriors and Necrons ally together, the former deepstriking in solo Obliterator troops in order to guide Deathmarks onto the field, all while Anrakyr the Traveller uses his Mind in the Machine ability to let the Typhon tank they brought along for the ride fire twice per turn.
Iron Warriors and Necrons ally together, the former deepstriking in solo Obliterator troops in order to guide Deathmarks onto the field, all while Anrakyr the Traveller uses his Mind in the Machine ability to let the Typhon tank they brought along for the ride fire twice per turn.
Have fun with that one.
That was a pretty easy mental image, actually. I pictured an Iron Warriors force making a temporary alliance with a local Necron force against a common enemy on the same planet. They then coordinate their efforts to mutually benefit from each other's strengths. Obliterators teleport from orbiting starships into key locations, carrying beacons that allow the Necrons to get their Deathmarks where they need to go more easily. A powerful Necron sorcerer rides along with a powerful Chaos tank, using his abilities to double the tank's firing rate without detriment to the tank's functioning.
The only part left out is who they're fighting against, because you never mentioned who the enemy were.
Guardsman Joe sees a flyer with jet engines zooming by overhead. As it passes over him, he throws a krak grenade into the air, hitting the rear side of the flyer and destroying it.
Let's say you're playing with those random objective cards that give you points for doing specific things.
Just, like... IMAGINE the orders your force's commander is receiving from HQ during the battle that would represent that.
HQ: "Pouncey, victory will be assured if you kill one of their psykers!"
Pouncey: "They... don't have those."
HQ: "Quickly! Take down one of their aircraft!"
Pouncey: "Yeah, we have no anti-aircraft weapons."
HQ: "Their force will be greatly weakened if you take this location immediately."
Pouncey: "Uhhh... okay... I mean, they're not anywhere near there, but whatever, I guess."
HQ: "I dunno, kill a bunch off them or whatever, I don't care who."
Pouncey: "We're... engaged in a battle. That's how this works."
HQ: "Take location B!:"
Pouncey: "Okay. I mean, it's guarded by some of their best troops and all I've got near there is a squad of novices, but we'll give it a go. And they're dead."
HQ: "Priority target: Location A."
Pouncey: "...We already hold that."
HQ: "VICTORY!"
Pouncey: "What? No, the battle's still going and you got most of my troops killed with randomly-changing objectives."
Let's say you're playing with those random objective cards that give you points for doing specific things.
Just, like... IMAGINE the orders your force's commander is receiving from HQ during the battle that would represent that.
HQ: "Pouncey, victory will be assured if you kill one of their psykers!"
Pouncey: "They... don't have those."
HQ: "Quickly! Take down one of their aircraft!"
Pouncey: "Yeah, we have no anti-aircraft weapons."
HQ: "Their force will be greatly weakened if you take this location immediately."
Pouncey: "Uhhh... okay... I mean, they're not anywhere near there, but whatever, I guess."
HQ: "I dunno, kill a bunch off them or whatever, I don't care who."
Pouncey: "We're... engaged in a battle. That's how this works."
HQ: "Take location B!:"
Pouncey: "Okay. I mean, it's guarded by some of their best troops and all I've got near there is a squad of novices, but we'll give it a go. And they're dead."
HQ: "Priority target: Location A."
Pouncey: "...We already hold that."
HQ: "VICTORY!"
Pouncey: "What? No, the battle's still going and you got most of my troops killed with randomly-changing objectives."
Pvt. Chromedome: eh, Bursley, did you, um...
Pvt. Bursley: What? Did I what?
Pvt. Chromedome: Did you, eh, see where I put my LSD? I had a month's worth stashed away and everything...
Pvt. Bursley: You what!?!? I thought you knew our billet was inspected Tuesday?
Pvt. Chromedome: you don't think...
-above orders crackle through the vox caster-
Pvt. Chromedome: ...
Pvt. Bursley: ..............
Pvt. Chromedome: Fail that morale test now?
Pvt. Bursley: Already rolled !
Let's say you're playing with those random objective cards that give you points for doing specific things.
Just, like... IMAGINE the orders your force's commander is receiving from HQ during the battle that would represent that.
HQ: "Pouncey, victory will be assured if you kill one of their psykers!"
Pouncey: "They... don't have those."
HQ: "Quickly! Take down one of their aircraft!"
Pouncey: "Yeah, we have no anti-aircraft weapons."
HQ: "Their force will be greatly weakened if you take this location immediately."
Pouncey: "Uhhh... okay... I mean, they're not anywhere near there, but whatever, I guess."
HQ: "I dunno, kill a bunch off them or whatever, I don't care who."
Pouncey: "We're... engaged in a battle. That's how this works."
HQ: "Take location B!:"
Pouncey: "Okay. I mean, it's guarded by some of their best troops and all I've got near there is a squad of novices, but we'll give it a go. And they're dead."
HQ: "Priority target: Location A."
Pouncey: "...We already hold that."
HQ: "VICTORY!"
Pouncey: "What? No, the battle's still going and you got most of my troops killed with randomly-changing objectives."
Pvt. Chromedome: eh, Bursley, did you, um...
Pvt. Bursley: What? Did I what?
Pvt. Chromedome: Did you, eh, see where I put my LSD? I had a month's worth stashed away and everything...
Pvt. Bursley: You what!?!? I thought you knew our billet was inspected Tuesday?
Pvt. Chromedome: you don't think...
-above orders crackle through the vox caster-
Pvt. Chromedome: ...
Pvt. Bursley: ..............
Pvt. Chromedome: Fail that morale test now?
Pvt. Bursley: Already rolled !
Good plan.
I don't have a good track record as a commander.
I once managed to lose a battle where I had a tank that the enemy was incapable of harming.
A cloud of dust rises over the horizon, the elder wraithknight pilot yneard and his dead sibling make a quick scan and find it to be caused by around 7 ork trukks racing wildly toward them. After another brief scan they locate the ork warboss riding ahead in a trukk with a nob escort.
Yneard readies his double cannons and aims each at two different trukks, one being the warboss', and fires. The shot slams into the front of the trukk, a direct hit, as the warp rift expands to swallow the trukk whole yneard is confident that he will have dealt a death blow to this rabble before they ever get near. But as the dust starts to clear again (as clear as possible with so many trukks moving at break neck speed) he is shocked to see the trukk almost fine and still moving in this direction, yneard did damage to it but, so much so its entire engine is missing, yet it still moves towards him. He is so shocked that by the time he readies his cannons again the orks are already upon him and his magnificent wraithknight structure is being hacked at by a sea of orks an one, very angry warboss.
(Basically the ramshackle rule is funny when it works against D weapons. And I always liken it to the shot tearing the engine off but it turns out the orks were just flint stone-ing the trukk the entire time.)
The Stormsurge fighting in melee conjures up funny images. The machine has no arms; how does it hit anything in melee?
Also, the idea of how many players are using Celestine these days. Imagine these big manly power-armored guys hiding behind three women while bullets come in.
ZergSmasher wrote: The Stormsurge fighting in melee conjures up funny images. The machine has no arms; how does it hit anything in melee?
Also, the idea of how many players are using Celestine these days. Imagine these big manly power-armored guys hiding behind three women while bullets come in.
On that subject a sniper fires at Celestine's unit with only her visible (due to a wall) and kills her Gemini bodyguard at the far end of the unit.....
Personnaly I like the Radioactive rule for the Vanguards' Radium Carbines that do double wounds on 6's. Last time I was playing against Eldars and suddenly there's this huge Wraithlord coming out through a ruin, spitting ghosts from its flamethrowers, killing the bearer of the Plasma Caliver and another Skitarius in the process. The wraith construct makes ready to charge the foolish Skitarii and stomp them to dust.
"The xeno is charging us, what do we do Alpha ?"
"OPEN FIRE !"
As the overwatch volley mostly misses the Wraithlord, two bullets find their way through its defences. Yet it's still walking towards them, laughing, before he starts coughing up and dies.
The fact that Imperial forge worlds make plasma weaponry that regularly blows up in it's own users' faces is pretty amusing to me. I guess the Departmento Munitorum has pretty lax QC standards.
ZergSmasher wrote: The Stormsurge fighting in melee conjures up funny images. The machine has no arms; how does it hit anything in melee?
Also, the idea of how many players are using Celestine these days. Imagine these big manly power-armored guys hiding behind three women while bullets come in.
Eastern European dancing. That cockpit is really well stabilized.
(Basically the ramshackle rule is funny when it works against D weapons. And I always liken it to the shot tearing the engine off but it turns out the orks were just flint stone-ing the trukk the entire time.)
Haha! Genuinely made me uncontrollably snigger at work. Can't get the idea of an engine exploding and revealing a squad of Boyz with their feet furiously pedalling away...
According to the rules of the game, a Land Raider can tank an amount of heavy stubber bullets that would deorbit the moon.
(2 million M2 Browning machine guns constantly firing for 90,000,000 years or so)
That one, at least, does make sense to me, the Land Raider will not be in one piece after 2 million M2 fire at it for X amount of years. It will be in one piece when at best ten or some of them fire for at best a minute at it, however.
After the update that took away the Heldrake's 360 degree arc of fire I can only imagine a bunch of aging arthritic Helturkeys no longer being able to fully swivel their necks properly. I wonder if there are daemonic chiropractors...
-A plasma bolt is headed straight for a sergeant's chest. "Look out, sir!" a grunt yells, running up from behind. He is still definitely behind the sergeant, yet the shot disappears and the soldier bursts into a charred, gory mess.
-A few lowly guardsmen are flailing their buttstocks wildly at a vicious Necron Overlord. He scythes a several down with brutal efficiency. The guardsmen continue to whack at him with the butts of their lasguns. Suddenly, a wave of drowsiness overtakes the Necron. He leans heavily on his scythe, no longer paying attention to the maddened humans surrounding him. The guardsmen continue to batter away at him. The Overlord checks his wristwatch-- and no wonder, just look at the time! Meanwhile, one guardsman hammers at the side of the head with his lasgun. The Overlord yawns and sits down, preparing for a nice 500 year catnap, all the while the mortified guardsmen continue to flail wildly at him. Each member of that guard unit was awarded a Star of Terra for putting down the most dreaded foe in the sector. (Because A Necron wouldn't possibly have been killed by a few guardsmen swinging their guns like clubs, he obviously just got tired and elected to sit down for a while.)
-A massive Daemon Prince drops its weapons and begins to punch itself in the face. A Necron Lord keeps saying "Why are you hitting yourself? Why are you hitting yourself?" until the DP knocks itself out cold.
Verviedi wrote: According to the rules of the game, a Land Raider can tank an amount of heavy stubber bullets that would deorbit the moon.
(2 million M2 Browning machine guns constantly firing for 90,000,000 years or so)
They would soon create a small hill of bullets for the landraider to immobilize itself upon. So it's all fair and square.
Verviedi wrote: According to the rules of the game, a Land Raider can tank an amount of heavy stubber bullets that would deorbit the moon.
(2 million M2 Browning machine guns constantly firing for 90,000,000 years or so)
To be fair, we have tech that will de-orbit the Moon in a matter of minutes in the right circumstances.
Basically, we'd need 5 billion or so of the world's most powerful pulse laser, enough energy to run them all continuously instead of in brief pulses, then we give 1 to each human who will be able to use it, aim them at the Moon together, and all push the buttons together.
This does two very interesting things VERY quickly.
1. 5 billion humans die instantly, as does most life on half of the planet.
2. The moon is now being pushed out of orbit.
In short order, a few more interesting things happen.
3. The rest of the life on Earth dies.
4. The Moon feths off and wanders around outside of Earth's orbit.
And very shortly after that.
5. Earth is uninhabitable and has no moon using technology we possess today (if we made about 5 billion of them and powered them all to full capacity, both of which are things we can't do today).
Not really relevant, but I heard "deorbit the moon" and I was reminded of this.
If you wanna tie it into 40k, basically what it means is that we have laser tech powerful enough that the Imperium could make an Exterminatus weapon out of a pulse laser created in the real world, today.
Anyways, carry on!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and about that example.
I'd say that a better example is that according to the rules of the game, a Land Raider can tank an amount of heavy stubber bullets that would wear away at a Land Raider atom by atom until there is nothing left of the Land Raider.
Because the correct number for "number of heavy stubber bullets a Land Raider can tank" is "infinity," therefore I'm pretty sure you could also say it could tank enough heavy stubber bullets to destroy the entire universe.
Space Marines being unable to run out of a rhino to charge someone, but having enough time to train their bolters at a target to fire upon said target.
*Marines stampede out of rhino*
*swords held high and proud above their heads*
*Freeze up all of the sudden*
*Dozens of "Error: you cannot perform that action" signs pop up*
Abanshee wrote: Space Marines being unable to run out of a rhino to charge someone, but having enough time to train their bolters at a target to fire upon said target.
*Marines stampede out of rhino*
*swords held high and proud above their heads*
*Freeze up all of the sudden*
*Dozens of "Error: you cannot perform that action" signs pop up*
Verviedi wrote: According to the rules of the game, a Land Raider can tank an amount of heavy stubber bullets that would deorbit the moon.
(2 million M2 Browning machine guns constantly firing for 90,000,000 years or so)
To be fair, we have tech that will de-orbit the Moon in a matter of minutes in the right circumstances.
Basically, we'd need 5 billion or so of the world's most powerful pulse laser, enough energy to run them all continuously instead of in brief pulses, then we give 1 to each human who will be able to use it, aim them at the Moon together, and all push the buttons together.
This does two very interesting things VERY quickly.
1. 5 billion humans die instantly, as does most life on half of the planet.
2. The moon is now being pushed out of orbit.
In short order, a few more interesting things happen.
3. The rest of the life on Earth dies.
4. The Moon feths off and wanders around outside of Earth's orbit.
And very shortly after that.
5. Earth is uninhabitable and has no moon using technology we possess today (if we made about 5 billion of them and powered them all to full capacity, both of which are things we can't do today).
Not really relevant, but I heard "deorbit the moon" and I was reminded of this.
If you wanna tie it into 40k, basically what it means is that we have laser tech powerful enough that the Imperium could make an Exterminatus weapon out of a pulse laser created in the real world, today.
Anyways, carry on!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and about that example.
I'd say that a better example is that according to the rules of the game, a Land Raider can tank an amount of heavy stubber bullets that would wear away at a Land Raider atom by atom until there is nothing left of the Land Raider.
Because the correct number for "number of heavy stubber bullets a Land Raider can tank" is "infinity," therefore I'm pretty sure you could also say it could tank enough heavy stubber bullets to destroy the entire universe.
...I loved that book. And I kind of want to try that, now. Not enough that 5,000,000,000 people dying is worth it, of course.
Verviedi wrote: According to the rules of the game, a Land Raider can tank an amount of heavy stubber bullets that would deorbit the moon.
(2 million M2 Browning machine guns constantly firing for 90,000,000 years or so)
To be fair, we have tech that will de-orbit the Moon in a matter of minutes in the right circumstances.
Basically, we'd need 5 billion or so of the world's most powerful pulse laser, enough energy to run them all continuously instead of in brief pulses, then we give 1 to each human who will be able to use it, aim them at the Moon together, and all push the buttons together.
This does two very interesting things VERY quickly.
1. 5 billion humans die instantly, as does most life on half of the planet.
2. The moon is now being pushed out of orbit.
In short order, a few more interesting things happen.
3. The rest of the life on Earth dies.
4. The Moon feths off and wanders around outside of Earth's orbit.
And very shortly after that.
5. Earth is uninhabitable and has no moon using technology we possess today (if we made about 5 billion of them and powered them all to full capacity, both of which are things we can't do today).
Not really relevant, but I heard "deorbit the moon" and I was reminded of this.
If you wanna tie it into 40k, basically what it means is that we have laser tech powerful enough that the Imperium could make an Exterminatus weapon out of a pulse laser created in the real world, today.
Anyways, carry on!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and about that example.
I'd say that a better example is that according to the rules of the game, a Land Raider can tank an amount of heavy stubber bullets that would wear away at a Land Raider atom by atom until there is nothing left of the Land Raider.
Because the correct number for "number of heavy stubber bullets a Land Raider can tank" is "infinity," therefore I'm pretty sure you could also say it could tank enough heavy stubber bullets to destroy the entire universe.
...I loved that book. And I kind of want to try that, now. Not enough that 5,000,000,000 people dying is worth it, of course.
I liked the one where he finds a way to cause a city-ending nuclear explosion by throwing a baseball hard enough.
Suppose I'll do a silly one that happened a year or so back. A chaos terminator lord stands alone ontop of a tall ruin (14" above the table) overlooking the battlefield. His terminator bodyguards are all on levels below him (closest being on the next floor, furthest on the ground). Far away he sees a Leman russ tank rotate it's turret and fire at him. He has no time to dodge and the shot hits him head on, blowing a huge hole in the ruin. It would have destroyed him on the spot if it wasn't for a piece of the building breaking and shielding him to then spiral down and land hard enough to kill a terminator on the ground who happened to be a little bit closer to the tank.
Melissia wrote: Marines having more individual people in their army than Guard.
Isn't it really weird that the Marine codex and formations basically encourage outnumbering your opponent, overrunning them and zerging them with MSU troops?
Bikes probably have all sorts of fancy targeting systems and stuff yet you cannot shoot their weapons while turbo-boosting, yet focusing hard and maintaining the mental discipline to manifest Psychic Powers while piloting a death machine at breakneck speeds is no problem at all.
Imagine if a White Scars conclave did an attack run on the Deathstar or so (hypothetical of course, let's assume they get jerbikes or so because why not?)
"Use the Warp, Subotai."
"Battle-Brother, you switched off your main targeting cogitator. Is everything alright?"
"Don't worry, manifesting Psychic Powers is its own phase. I'll manifest Flayerstorm now."
Melissia wrote: Marines having more individual people in their army than Guard.
Isn't it really weird that the Marine codex and formations basically encourage outnumbering your opponent, overrunning them and zerging them with MSU troops?
It's a real design headscratcher.
I'll explain.
If they design LSM as a horde army, then they can sell more Space Marine models.
Space Marine kits are already more expensive than horde army kits, because people expect they'll need fewer of them.
So GW makes more money if they design LSM as a horde army.
Melissia wrote: Yes, we're aware. Still makes it ridiculous.
Why is it ridiculous?
I mean, prior to that, you had a force of like 50 Marines going up against 100 Orks and sometimes the Marines didn't wipe out every Ork with 0 casualties of their own.
Abanshee wrote: Space Marines being unable to run out of a rhino to charge someone, but having enough time to train their bolters at a target to fire upon said target.
*Marines stampede out of rhino*
*swords held high and proud above their heads*
*Freeze up all of the sudden*
*Dozens of "Error: you cannot perform that action" signs pop up*
Professor Oak: There is a time and place for everything, but not now!
This is an old one from the 6th edition Dark Eldr codex. A Raider with shock prow and flickerfield decide to ram an enemy vehicle with its shock prow, with its speed and prow its an easy pen but the Raider also suffers a pen from the impact. However the Raider makes it flickerfield save and no damage is taken and the enemy vehicle blows up.
The fun part is that flickerfield creates an illusionary double of the Raider thous giving it its save, and by that logic since the save was made the illusion is what crashed into the enemy vehicle and blew it up. xD
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another wierd one is that you have to do a sweeping advance wich only benefit Marines.
"Ok boys we can do this and chase these guys away from this objective no need to kill them" wins combat, marines fail their morale test and starts running, roll for Initiative. "Wait why are we chasing them? Stop just let them run we need this objective" Wins the roll thous losing 5points in objective cards...
mew28 wrote: I think my favorite is sternngaurd vets and guards men vets are as good at shooting. I mean surviving one battle compared to 100 years of constant training and battle are pretty much the same thing right?
Back when fantasy was a thing there was toughness 3 1 wound goblins. You know those things probably half the size of a man and weak and they were just as tough and strong.
In the case of Fantasy and 40k poison in fantasy effecting the undead whereas an ogre butcher was immune (i kid you not). In 40k being able to poison an artillery emplacement to death. A friend joked that the artillery cannon would turn blue, green or purple and gain "x's" on its eyes with its tongue sticking out.
Also one of my first favorites. Penal legionnaires with rending! Basically in the 5th edition guard codex it was very possible to roll up rending and even possible to take out a carnifex with one. Improbably yes but i wanted to model a downed carnifex with knife wounds all over it and a bunch of penal legionnaires on top of it. Realistically it is insanely stupid but it could be a legit thing back then.
The other day I took an Inquisitor with a double set of Daemonblades.
All told, he got +3 attacks from each blade, Rage and Furious Charge, and Poisoned 2+.
So here's an inquisitor charging in with 11 attacks, flailing his fists wildly to slaughter entire squads on his own - I had a Ministorum Priest attached, so he ended up killing something like 8 or 9 Orks in a single assault.
I remember once that my wraithguard got killed by a dark eldar poisoned weapon designed to expand bones until the thing dies. Unfortunately instead of my wraithguard turning into wraithlords they died. Wraithbone should either count as bone and they just get bigger or it doesn't and nothing happens.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Also one of my first favorites. Penal legionnaires with rending! Basically in the 5th edition guard codex it was very possible to roll up rending and even possible to take out a carnifex with one. Improbably yes but i wanted to model a downed carnifex with knife wounds all over it and a bunch of penal legionnaires on top of it. Realistically it is insanely stupid but it could be a legit thing back then.
Prison changes people, yo.
Speaking of old favorites, my old favorite from 5th edition was you could attach an Independent Character to Snikrot's Kommando unit and it could arrive Behind Enemy Lines with them, as the ability was granted by Snikrot to his unit, and it wasn't Outflanking as this rule was from 4th before Outflank was a thing.
So you could easily have these sneaky Orks sneaking a Bike Warboss or Mad Doc Grotsnik behind enemy lines. Yeah.
Battlegrinder wrote: The inability to shoot into melee sometimes makes sense, sometimes not. For example:
The marine tactical sqaud had been ambushed by an understrength brood of termagaunts. Engaging in bitter, hand to claw combat, the marines slowly overwhelming the battered aliens, and one by one the termaguants fell. As the last pair of 'gaunts made thier final stand, the towering form of a carniflex appeared behind the marines, ready to unleash a torrent of bio-plasma that would leave nothing but scorched bones and melted ceramite behind......which it elected to refrain from doing, least it's attack also kill one, or worse both, of the termagaunts. The hive mind dared not take such a ruthless action, least the hive mind decide that the hive mind was too callous with it's troops and revolt against the hive mind.
And the converse of this: Terminators are locked in combat with a large squad of genestealers. A tactical squad equipped with a flamer is nearby - maybe it would help to bathe everybody in some promethium goodness to scrape some of the xenos threat from your battle brothers? Sure there should be some risk, but the upside makes too much sense.
We allow shooting into close combat with risks.
Melissia wrote: Yes, we're aware. Still makes it ridiculous.
Why is it ridiculous?
I mean, prior to that, you had a force of like 50 Marines going up against 100 Orks and sometimes the Marines didn't wipe out every Ork with 0 casualties of their own.
Orks are just as tough as marines biologically (in fact, they're probably tougher; marines can't exactly survive decapitation like Orks can), and just as strong as Marines outside of their power armor, and further enhanced by a powerful psychic field that makes them even tougher, stronger, and faster the more of them there are in any given place. It'd be entirely unfluffy if there were no Marine casualties, especially since any Ork army that's merely 100 Orks and yet costs the same as 50 marines is bound to include a lot of specialist units that themselves are very much capable of causing casualties.
Remember, not every model that is removed because of losing its last wound is *dead*. They're simply rendered incapable of further combat for the purposes of the game.
But compare that to 50 marines vs ~30-40 guardsmen, who stand a greater chance of winning than the Orks.
Melissia wrote: Yes, we're aware. Still makes it ridiculous.
Why is it ridiculous?
I mean, prior to that, you had a force of like 50 Marines going up against 100 Orks and sometimes the Marines didn't wipe out every Ork with 0 casualties of their own.
Orks are just as tough as marines, and just as strong as Marines outside of their power armor, and further enhanced by a powerful psychic field that makes them even tougher, stronger, and faster. It'd be entirely unfluffy if there were no Marine casualties, especially since any Ork army that's merely 100 Orks and yet costs the same as 50 marines is bound to include a lot of specialist units that themselves are very much capable of causing casualties.
Remember, not every model that is removed because of losing its last wound is *dead*. They're simply rendered incapable of further combat for the purposes of the game.
Power Armor doesn't make the Marines stronger. Otherwise, Scouts would be S3, not S4.
Also, 100 orks does cost as much as 50 marines, if you give those orks Shootas. (Or, if we wind back to the last Ork codex, if you give those orks Stikkbombs.) Those are just standard, unequipped Ork Boyz with one piece of upgraded/extra wargear. And, it's worth mentioning, that we're talking silly mental images, not on-the-board tactics. 50 Space Marines should be enough to turn the tide of a war, 100 Ork Boyz is barely a rounding error when added to the Green Tide. But on the board, not only will the Ork Boyz win, they'll clean up and walk away happy.
Melissia wrote: Yes, we're aware. Still makes it ridiculous.
Why is it ridiculous?
I mean, prior to that, you had a force of like 50 Marines going up against 100 Orks and sometimes the Marines didn't wipe out every Ork with 0 casualties of their own.
Orks are just as tough as marines, and just as strong as Marines outside of their power armor, and further enhanced by a powerful psychic field that makes them even tougher, stronger, and faster. It'd be entirely unfluffy if there were no Marine casualties, especially since any Ork army that's merely 100 Orks and yet costs the same as 50 marines is bound to include a lot of specialist units that themselves are very much capable of causing casualties.
Remember, not every model that is removed because of losing its last wound is *dead*. They're simply rendered incapable of further combat for the purposes of the game.
Power Armor doesn't make the Marines stronger. Otherwise, Scouts would be S3, not S4.
Also, 100 orks does cost as much as 50 marines, if you give those orks Shootas. (Or, if we wind back to the last Ork codex, if you give those orks Stikkbombs.) Those are just standard, unequipped Ork Boyz with one piece of upgraded/extra wargear. And, it's worth mentioning, that we're talking silly mental images, not on-the-board tactics. 50 Space Marines should be enough to turn the tide of a war, 100 Ork Boyz is barely a rounding error when added to the Green Tide. But on the board, not only will the Ork Boyz win, they'll clean up and walk away happy.
Space Marines have never been powerful enough on the tabletop.
Going way back, the Chaplains Rosarius used to 'flash' when he made a save, causing stunning blindness or somesuch to all models within a distance determined by the strength of the hit against which he saved. At the same time we had falling rules where you could take a hit with the strength based on the distance you fell. Put them together and you get...
I'm going to start the battle by tossing my chaplain out of a Thunderhawk at 10,000 feet...
The lore disagrees. In fact, the lore SPECIFICALLY states in NUMEROUS places that power armor, especially Astartes power armor, gives them additional strength. The tabletop is a poor approximation of lore.
Barebones Pinion Battle Company of 50 marines: 1 captain, 30 tacticals, 9 assaults, 5 devastators, 5 scouts. Total 761 points.
Barebones Ork Warband of 100 boyz 1 warboss, 84 boyz, 10 gretchins + runtherd, 1 mek, 3 nobz. total 100 models (working with the assumption that the nobz, gretchin, and mek balance out pointswise) Total 668 points with sluggaz, and 752 points with shootaz.
So, WHEN the Orks "upgrade" to Shootaz, they pay another ~93 points and are still nine points shy of the Marine force. But wait! Since we're talking about upgrades, let's think about this more seriously. What Marine force would go completely barebones, without any weaponry even on the devastator squads?
Let's give them a relatively light, anti-Ork loadout: Five flamers (one on each tac squad, two on the assault squad), four heavy bolters (on the dev squad), and turn the scouts in to snipers. This is still not really particularly realistic for a force a Marine player would actually deploy, but it's much moreso than the barebones one at least. And it results in.... 830 points. Add in jump packs, a few power weapons, camo on the scouts, and this raises the Pinion demi-company up to over 1000 points-- without taking any heavy weapons outside of basic heavy bolters on the devastators (and really, the devs would probably take something more expensive over heavy bolters).
For the Orks to match that, you'd need to increase the boyz count by quite a bit, give each boyz squad a weapon upgrade (shoota or rokkit, probably shoota really given BS2) give them all 'eavy armor, purchase more nobz or other specialist units, etc.
Melissia wrote: Yes, we're aware. Still makes it ridiculous.
Why is it ridiculous?
I mean, prior to that, you had a force of like 50 Marines going up against 100 Orks and sometimes the Marines didn't wipe out every Ork with 0 casualties of their own.
Orks are just as tough as marines, and just as strong as Marines outside of their power armor, and further enhanced by a powerful psychic field that makes them even tougher, stronger, and faster. It'd be entirely unfluffy if there were no Marine casualties, especially since any Ork army that's merely 100 Orks and yet costs the same as 50 marines is bound to include a lot of specialist units that themselves are very much capable of causing casualties.
Remember, not every model that is removed because of losing its last wound is *dead*. They're simply rendered incapable of further combat for the purposes of the game.
Power Armor doesn't make the Marines stronger. Otherwise, Scouts would be S3, not S4.
Also, 100 orks does cost as much as 50 marines, if you give those orks Shootas. (Or, if we wind back to the last Ork codex, if you give those orks Stikkbombs.) Those are just standard, unequipped Ork Boyz with one piece of upgraded/extra wargear. And, it's worth mentioning, that we're talking silly mental images, not on-the-board tactics. 50 Space Marines should be enough to turn the tide of a war, 100 Ork Boyz is barely a rounding error when added to the Green Tide. But on the board, not only will the Ork Boyz win, they'll clean up and walk away happy.
Space Marines have never been powerful enough on the tabletop.
Early 3rd ed was close, but they were miscosted. GW fixed that by pooing out the 3 shot starcannon and turning marines back into target practice.
don_mondo wrote: Going way back, the Chaplains Rosarius used to 'flash' when he made a save, causing stunning blindness or somesuch to all models within a distance determined by the strength of the hit against which he saved. At the same time we had falling rules where you could take a hit with the strength based on the distance you fell. Put them together and you get...
I'm going to start the battle by tossing my chaplain out of a Thunderhawk at 10,000 feet...
aand he fails that save .
"Plan B: crash and burn! Banzai!"
Melissia wrote: Yes, we're aware. Still makes it ridiculous.
Why is it ridiculous?
I mean, prior to that, you had a force of like 50 Marines going up against 100 Orks and sometimes the Marines didn't wipe out every Ork with 0 casualties of their own.
Orks are just as tough as marines, and just as strong as Marines outside of their power armor, and further enhanced by a powerful psychic field that makes them even tougher, stronger, and faster. It'd be entirely unfluffy if there were no Marine casualties, especially since any Ork army that's merely 100 Orks and yet costs the same as 50 marines is bound to include a lot of specialist units that themselves are very much capable of causing casualties.
Remember, not every model that is removed because of losing its last wound is *dead*. They're simply rendered incapable of further combat for the purposes of the game.
Power Armor doesn't make the Marines stronger. Otherwise, Scouts would be S3, not S4.
Also, 100 orks does cost as much as 50 marines, if you give those orks Shootas. (Or, if we wind back to the last Ork codex, if you give those orks Stikkbombs.) Those are just standard, unequipped Ork Boyz with one piece of upgraded/extra wargear. And, it's worth mentioning, that we're talking silly mental images, not on-the-board tactics. 50 Space Marines should be enough to turn the tide of a war, 100 Ork Boyz is barely a rounding error when added to the Green Tide. But on the board, not only will the Ork Boyz win, they'll clean up and walk away happy.
Space Marines have never been powerful enough on the tabletop.
Early 3rd ed was close, but they were miscosted. GW fixed that by pooing out the 3 shot starcannon and turning marines back into target practice.
im sure a 1000 + ork war clan would make turns go quck..
excuse me while i slide my 4 by 1-2 feet mass of ork minutures,
Also one of my first favorites. Penal legionnaires with rending! Basically in the 5th edition guard codex it was very possible to roll up rending and even possible to take out a carnifex with one. Improbably yes but i wanted to model a downed carnifex with knife wounds all over it and a bunch of penal legionnaires on top of it. Realistically it is insanely stupid but it could be a legit thing back then.
Back then?
It's possible now.
I've watched a horde of cultists beat down a Riptide.
I've also seen a Space Marine Sergeant take down a Daemon Prince solo...
Also one of my first favorites. Penal legionnaires with rending! Basically in the 5th edition guard codex it was very possible to roll up rending and even possible to take out a carnifex with one. Improbably yes but i wanted to model a downed carnifex with knife wounds all over it and a bunch of penal legionnaires on top of it. Realistically it is insanely stupid but it could be a legit thing back then.
Back then?
It's possible now.
I've watched a horde of cultists beat down a Riptide.
I've also seen a Space Marine Sergeant take down a Daemon Prince solo...
That's cuz Space Marines aren't that good at melee. Wolf Guard can make it happen.
Adding this one because it was great when it happened: a sort of converging of rule and narrative ridiculousness.
Macharius Vanquisher tank, having done jack squat in three turns worth of shooting, decide to go for broke and Thunderblitz up a tower in the enemy deployment zone, moving two grey hunters out of position. And possibly killing one, but I don't remember too clearly.
Top this, GTA!
(gentle reminder I posted this in another thread recently)
I do remember a game where straken beat a chaos lord with a daemon weapon in melee. My opponent flipped out when his daemon weapon rolled one's or something and then straken just killed him.
- IK stomps a specific Space Wolf character. His pacemaker locks the IK in stasis. (Not mine, but I saw it.). A complete 'Hold my Beer, I got this' move.
- Ork Mek with Shokk Attack gun manages to Infiltrate with 29 Grots because he put on a cap that made him 'Fink' better. Tau Suits DS in to kill the Mek. Not just 1 or 2, but 17 Grots managed to get tossed in the way to protect the gun. Mek then tries to take out the Tau commander with a lucky shot and ends up teleporting himself across the Battlefield. The Tau Commander and his 2 guards, with their highly advance suits, decide that poking the Ork Mek for 1/2 the battle was the best strategy.
- Grots shoot some Thunderwolf Cav and do nothing. Kill 2 when they get charged. TWC manages to kill 13 Grots. Grots decide to stick around after the Squighound eats 1 of them. Clearly, we need to look into a Squighound unit.
- Mawloc (?) decides to swallow some Necron Warriors. One of them manages to repair himself, so the Mawloc stays underground. Repeats it again, same result. 40k equivalent of Whack-a-mole.
- Opposing Autocannon Teams(3) fails to kill a single Necron with 6 shots. Two teams die causing the last two members to run. They choose to drag the Autocannon with them. They never rally, but still manage to hit with every shot until they made it off the table. It was Hammer and Anvil Deployment. "Drop it man, were gonna die!" "NEVER".
(This one just happened)
- New Ynnead Psychic power gets to shoot equal to the number of models in the target unit, hits a near full unit of Conscripts. The Assault ~50 power only kills the 7 Conscripts that are within 12".
The lore disagrees. In fact, the lore SPECIFICALLY states in NUMEROUS places that power armor, especially Astartes power armor, gives them additional strength. The tabletop is a poor approximation of lore.
Wait, are we talking lore here, or are we talking rules? You keep switching back and forth between the two.
On the tabletop, Power Armor provides a 3+ armor save, and nothing else. It can be assumed that the strength bonus provided by Power Armor, while noteworthy, is not enough to give a boost to their Strength stat - Rather like how a Guardsman and an Ork aren't identical in strength, but are within an order of magnitude, so they can be treated equally.
And even if we're using the fluff as our source instead of the tabletop, Orks STILL aren't as strong as Space Marines. Not by a longshot. They're strong, but not anywhere near as strong as Space Marines.
Barebones Pinion Battle Company of 50 marines:
1 captain, 30 tacticals, 9 assaults, 5 devastators, 5 scouts.
Total 761 points.
Barebones Ork Warband of 100 boyz
1 warboss, 84 boyz, 10 gretchins + runtherd, 1 mek, 3 nobz. total 100 models (working with the assumption that the nobz, gretchin, and mek balance out pointswise)
Total 668 points with sluggaz, and 752 points with shootaz.
So, WHEN the Orks "upgrade" to Shootaz, they pay another ~93 points and are still nine points shy of the Marine force. But wait! Since we're talking about upgrades, let's think about this more seriously. What Marine force would go completely barebones, without any weaponry even on the devastator squads?
Let's give them a relatively light, anti-Ork loadout: Five flamers (one on each tac squad, two on the assault squad), four heavy bolters (on the dev squad), and turn the scouts in to snipers. This is still not really particularly realistic for a force a Marine player would actually deploy, but it's much moreso than the barebones one at least. And it results in.... 830 points. Add in jump packs, a few power weapons, camo on the scouts, and this raises the Pinion demi-company up to over 1000 points-- without taking any heavy weapons outside of basic heavy bolters on the devastators (and really, the devs would probably take something more expensive over heavy bolters).
For the Orks to match that, you'd need to increase the boyz count by quite a bit, give each boyz squad a weapon upgrade (shoota or rokkit, probably shoota really given BS2) give them all 'eavy armor, purchase more nobz or other specialist units, etc.
What the heck are you doing here? I'm genuinely confused - We weren't talking about battle companies or army comp, and you're suddenly forcing it into the comparison so that you're right.
From the outset, we were comparing 50 Space Marines to 100 Orks. Not a 50-man Space Marine Company to a 100-man Ork Warband.
Space Marines are 14ppm. 50 of them costs 700 points.
Ork Boyz with Shootas are 7ppm. 100 of them costs 700 points.
So, following the very simple, easy rules set out by the original comparison, 50 Space Marines cost the same as 100 Orks.
Even if you do want to make that comparison that you're making, though, you're doing it wrong: If we have 30 Tactical Marines, 9 Assault Marines, 5 Devestators, and 5 Scouts, and a Captain, then the Orks should have 60 Ork Boyz, 18 Stormboyz, 10 Lootas, 10 Grots, a Big Mek, and a Warboss.
30 Tactical Marines with an average heavy/special loadout costs 495 points. 9 Assault Marines with Jump Packs costs 158 points, assuming you throw in a flamer. 5 Devestators with average (15pt) Heavy Weapons will cost 130 points. 5 Scouts with Camo Cloaks and Snipers costs 70 points.
All in all, that's 853 points, not including the captain.
60 Shoota boys with Rokkits all around will cost 480 points. 18 Stormboyz costs 162 points. 10 Lootas costs 140 points, and those 10 Grots will cost 40.
All in all, that's 826 points, not including the Warboss and Big Mek.
Less than a 30 points difference, and the Big Mek and Warboss can easily cover that gap since, with stock gear, they'll cost slightly more than the Captain - Loadouts are pretty varied, but it'll average out pretty equal. You can throw some Power Weapons on the Space Marines, but that's easily covered by adding Nobz to the Ork squads.
So, in summary: Your comparison is incredibly biased and unfair, and does not line up at all with your statement of "Any Ork army that's merely 100 Orks and yet costs the same as 50 marines is bound to include a lot of specialist units."
Waaaghpower wrote: Wait, are we talking lore here, or are we talking rules?
Have you not read the title of the thread you're participating in?
Go do that then realize how ridiculous your objection is, then accept that what I have said is true. Without the fluff, NONE of the stuff mentioned in this thread is "ridiculous". If you look purely from a gameplay perspective, there's plenty of internal logic that makes all of these things perfectly okay, therefor none of it is ridiculous. It is ONLY when you reference the fluff that ANY of this can possibly be considered "ridiculous mental images".
Waaaghpower wrote: Wait, are we talking lore here, or are we talking rules?
Have you not read the title of the thread you're participating in?
Go do that then realize how ridiculous your objection is, then accept that what I have said is true. Without the fluff, NONE of the stuff mentioned in this thread is "ridiculous". If you look purely from a gameplay perspective, there's plenty of internal logic that makes all of these things perfectly okay, therefor none of it is ridiculous. It is ONLY when you reference the fluff that ANY of this can possibly be considered "ridiculous mental images".
Please stop cutting off my quotes halfway through a statement. It's really disingenuous.
On a more serious note, I always felt like 40k does not deal with a large scale well. As much as I love titans anything bigger than a Tyrannofex feels too big for the game's scale.
If we shifted the stats around, using Guardsmen as a baseline and keeping them where they are, Marines at T6 and the biggest things (like said Tyrannofex) at T10 would be extremely fluffy.
- IK stomps a specific Space Wolf character. His pacemaker locks the IK in stasis. (Not mine, but I saw it.). A complete 'Hold my Beer, I got this' move.
Sadly this doesn't happen anymore.
7th ed Lukas can only get models in a challenge and even then Lukas has to beat or tie them in a roll off.
Last Laugh my butt, wry cchuckle at best....
Waaaghpower wrote: Please stop cutting off my quotes halfway through a statement.
No. I will not start massive obnoxious quote pyramids. If that's really the only response you're capable of, then that's as much an admission of me being right as anything and I think we're done here.
Waaaghpower wrote: Please stop cutting off my quotes halfway through a statement.
No. I will not start massive obnoxious quote pyramids. If that's really the only response you're capable of, then that's as much an admission of me being right as anything and I think we're done here.
I'm fine with you shortening the post length. I'm not fine with you cutting out half of my point so that you can 'win' the argument by misrepresenting what I'm saying and ignoring my supporting arguments.
I asked if you were talking about fluff or rules, because you kept shifting back and forth between the two without distinction. I then provided examples.
You responded only to the first part, ignoring the examples, making your response entirely useless when compared to the actual question that I asked.
Though if that's your idea of 'fair representation', it explains where your other posts are coming from.
Melissia wrote: Without the fluff, NONE of the stuff mentioned in this thread is "ridiculous". If you look purely from a gameplay perspective, there's plenty of internal logic that makes all of these things perfectly okay, therefor none of it is ridiculous. It is ONLY when you reference the fluff that ANY of this can possibly be considered "ridiculous mental images".
In other words, I am, and have been, alongside most of the posters in this thread, talking about the interplay of fluff and gameplay mechanics that results in silly or ridiculous mental images.
Ashiraya wrote: On a more serious note, I always felt like 40k does not deal with a large scale well. As much as I love titans anything bigger than a Tyrannofex feels too big for the game's scale.
If we shifted the stats around, using Guardsmen as a baseline and keeping them where they are, Marines at T6 and the biggest things (like said Tyrannofex) at T10 would be extremely fluffy.
Not quite, I think T4 does well to represent the tougher than human thing without going Into vehicle level toughness.
Ashiraya wrote: On a more serious note, I always felt like 40k does not deal with a large scale well. As much as I love titans anything bigger than a Tyrannofex feels too big for the game's scale.
If we shifted the stats around, using Guardsmen as a baseline and keeping them where they are, Marines at T6 and the biggest things (like said Tyrannofex) at T10 would be extremely fluffy.
Not quite, I think T4 does well to represent the tougher than human thing without going Into vehicle level toughness.
But we all know that at this point....
I think he was saying that the really high-level monsters should be removed, so that the other stats can be rescaled to fit the fluff better. When you don't need to include god-level monsters and beings, you can scale everything else up a bit to add more diversity.
I disagree with that notion, because firstly a Marine shouldn't be T6 even in that scenario - T5 would be fine - but also because it would make the game even more difficult to balance and it would remove some of my favorite parts of the game. (I like taking big nasties. It brings back that childlike glee of taking two of your favorite toys and smashing them together while making dinosaur noises.)
Speaking of ridiculous mental images, I always think it's funny when you have a single model at the front of the squad tank damage for the whole unit by being slightly more forward than everyone else, especially when they're tanking something like a shot from a Battle Cannon.
Just picture it - A high explosive shell fires across the battlefield, hitting the squad square in their core and exploding, the shrapnel flying in every direction and then somehow all colliding with one guy wearing artificer armor sitting at the front of the squad, who yawns and gives everyone else a thumbs up.
Waaaghpower wrote: but also because it would make the game even more difficult to balance
The rest is your opinion so it is all well and good, but I do not see how this would be the case. Limiting the scope of the game means you won't have to break it just to fit big stuff in. If anything it'd make it easier to balance since you'd have more freedom of statting without stepping on toes. You can make plasma cannons S8 to make them more worth taking for example, and reflect the fact that a bigger ball of plasma does hit harder.
Waaaghpower wrote: but also because it would make the game even more difficult to balance
The rest is your opinion so it is all well and good, but I do not see how this would be the case. Limiting the scope of the game means you won't have to break it just to fit big stuff in. If anything it'd make it easier to balance since you'd have more freedom of statting without stepping on toes. You can make plasma cannons S8 to make them more worth taking for example, and reflect the fact that a bigger ball of plasma does hit harder.
But how do you balance a game where one army's most basic troops without any upgrades (Tactical Marines) is all-but immune to the firepower of another army's basic troops? (Anyone with S3, including Guard and Tyranids.) Heck, assuming that the rate of increase is the same, Death Guard would become practically indestructible, what with T7 on everyone and T8 on their bikes.
And yeah, you can scale up some of the guns, but no matter what the case, you're going to have a problem with hitting stat ceilings, and being unable to balance past them. Right now, there are only one or two models in the game that have T10. The only other way to get it is by stacking Psychic Powers or other abilities on top of each other with an already-tough model.
If we re-scale so that a model that is currently T6 is now T10, though, then we're going to have a huge problem with lots of things being unable to damage each other. The only way to make a T6 Space Marine fair is to increase his points cost so that you can buy ten or fifteen Guardsmen for each Space Marine, but then you get a new issue: Those Guardsmen can't really hurt the Space Marine, and while that Space Marine *can* hurt the Guardsmen, he can only kill a couple every turn, so it's going to take ages to kill him.
Also, if you have a T6 Space Marine, then entire armies are going to end up with the Terminator problem, where every model is so expensive that losing a single man can be a crippling blow, making special weapons like Plasma and Grav far to valuable - If a regular Space Marine costs 30 or 40 points, and a Terminator costs 80 or 90, then I only need a few volleys of Plasma or Grav or whatever-else-I-have fire to take out massive chunks of your army.
Waaaghpower wrote: but also because it would make the game even more difficult to balance
The rest is your opinion so it is all well and good, but I do not see how this would be the case. Limiting the scope of the game means you won't have to break it just to fit big stuff in. If anything it'd make it easier to balance since you'd have more freedom of statting without stepping on toes. You can make plasma cannons S8 to make them more worth taking for example, and reflect the fact that a bigger ball of plasma does hit harder.
But how do you balance a game where one army's most basic troops without any upgrades (Tactical Marines) is all-but immune to the firepower of another army's basic troops? (Anyone with S3, including Guard and Tyranids.) Heck, assuming that the rate of increase is the same, Death Guard would become practically indestructible, what with T7 on everyone and T8 on their bikes.
And yeah, you can scale up some of the guns, but no matter what the case, you're going to have a problem with hitting stat ceilings, and being unable to balance past them. Right now, there are only one or two models in the game that have T10. The only other way to get it is by stacking Psychic Powers or other abilities on top of each other with an already-tough model.
If we re-scale so that a model that is currently T6 is now T10, though, then we're going to have a huge problem with lots of things being unable to damage each other. The only way to make a T6 Space Marine fair is to increase his points cost so that you can buy ten or fifteen Guardsmen for each Space Marine, but then you get a new issue: Those Guardsmen can't really hurt the Space Marine, and while that Space Marine *can* hurt the Guardsmen, he can only kill a couple every turn, so it's going to take ages to kill him.
Also, if you have a T6 Space Marine, then entire armies are going to end up with the Terminator problem, where every model is so expensive that losing a single man can be a crippling blow, making special weapons like Plasma and Grav far to valuable - If a regular Space Marine costs 30 or 40 points, and a Terminator costs 80 or 90, then I only need a few volleys of Plasma or Grav or whatever-else-I-have fire to take out massive chunks of your army.
That would be really fluffy. Space marines do die to things like that.
Waaaghpower wrote: But how do you balance a game where one army's most basic troops without any upgrades (Tactical Marines) is all-but immune to the firepower of another army's basic troops?
I must have missed all those complaints about ABG breaking the game, then.
I mean, obviously the entire game would need reworking, but then, 40k as it is now is so bad I don't see how to truly fix it unless you do.
Waaaghpower wrote: but also because it would make the game even more difficult to balance
The rest is your opinion so it is all well and good, but I do not see how this would be the case. Limiting the scope of the game means you won't have to break it just to fit big stuff in. If anything it'd make it easier to balance since you'd have more freedom of statting without stepping on toes. You can make plasma cannons S8 to make them more worth taking for example, and reflect the fact that a bigger ball of plasma does hit harder.
But how do you balance a game where one army's most basic troops without any upgrades (Tactical Marines) is all-but immune to the firepower of another army's basic troops? (Anyone with S3, including Guard and Tyranids.) Heck, assuming that the rate of increase is the same, Death Guard would become practically indestructible, what with T7 on everyone and T8 on their bikes.
And yeah, you can scale up some of the guns, but no matter what the case, you're going to have a problem with hitting stat ceilings, and being unable to balance past them. Right now, there are only one or two models in the game that have T10. The only other way to get it is by stacking Psychic Powers or other abilities on top of each other with an already-tough model.
If we re-scale so that a model that is currently T6 is now T10, though, then we're going to have a huge problem with lots of things being unable to damage each other. The only way to make a T6 Space Marine fair is to increase his points cost so that you can buy ten or fifteen Guardsmen for each Space Marine, but then you get a new issue: Those Guardsmen can't really hurt the Space Marine, and while that Space Marine *can* hurt the Guardsmen, he can only kill a couple every turn, so it's going to take ages to kill him.
Also, if you have a T6 Space Marine, then entire armies are going to end up with the Terminator problem, where every model is so expensive that losing a single man can be a crippling blow, making special weapons like Plasma and Grav far to valuable - If a regular Space Marine costs 30 or 40 points, and a Terminator costs 80 or 90, then I only need a few volleys of Plasma or Grav or whatever-else-I-have fire to take out massive chunks of your army.
I'd actually be for the scenario you just described - I'm not against big stuff or dinosaur noises, there's a reason my favourite army to play against is Orks - but the affordability of big stuff and high model counts becomes obvious when you finish an intro game with a newbie and they cruise over to other players and start getting the horrified look as they realise they'll need four of that $130 Start Collecting! box plus a $40-$70 codex and a $20-$70 BRB to play an 1850 match.
If the Start Collecting! boxes were close to evenly matched 1850 would just be the next logical step.
Back to the topic - imagining people as a military financial officer in their chosen army's colours with a dropped jaw "It costs how much to supply an army!?".
Can we please take the argument about the scale of the game to another thread? This one is for a humorous discussion about ridiculous things that happen in games that make no sense realistically, not whether it's appropriate for Space Marines to be tougher than Guardsmen or whatever it is that everyone's bitching about.
Now that I've gotten that off my chest...
It's probably been covered by other posts in this thread, but I get a funny mental image when I picture a lone 2+ armor save character tanking wounds from an AP3 flamer weapon for his squad.
*Heldrake stoops down from the sky to flame a full-strength Space Marine Devastator Squad lead by a Captain in Cataphractii armor*
Captain: "Quickly brothers, everyone get behind me!"
*Heldrake unleashes its baleflamer all over the Marines, boosted in power by its Daemonforge. Flames roar all around the Space Marines*
*Marine player rolls his saves and gets only a single , the Marines are completely unharmed. The ground around the squad and the Captain's armor are all scorched and blackened, but somehow the Devastators' armor is still pristine.*
Marine: "Brother-Captain, what just happened?"
Captain: "The Emperor protects, brother. Now someone fetch me some burn ointment and some armor polish!"
This is the main instance where taking all wounds on the closest model is just stupid.
Waaaghpower wrote: But how do you balance a game where one army's most basic troops without any upgrades (Tactical Marines) is all-but immune to the firepower of another army's basic troops?
I must have missed all those complaints about ABG breaking the game, then.
I mean, obviously the entire game would need reworking, but then, 40k as it is now is so bad I don't see how to truly fix it unless you do.
I didn't say it would be overpowered, I said it would be difficult to balance - The ABG rather proves that, because it's extremely far on the 'Rock' side of 'Rock/paper/scissors.' (And I think the 40k rules are mostly good as they stand right now, actually. It's the codices that need fixing, plus maybe some trimming around the edges in a few of the phases to get rid of bloat and a tweak to vehicle damage. That's all the rulebook would need.)
Speaking of ridiculous mental images, though - I find it a little silly how AP and saves works, from a logical standpoint. Space Marine armor covers the entire body, head to toe, in thick plates of ceramite. Terminator armor does the same, but with even thicker plates. If the save is supposed to represent the likelihood of a bullet or attack hitting an exposed/weak part of the armor, shouldn't the Power Armor provide a 2+ save? And Ork armor is generally armor plates that appear to be about a foot thick, but only cover a tiny fraction of the Ork's body - Of course it's only going to give a 6+ save, because it's only covering the Ork's shoulder and a bit of his back, but how exactly does a run-of-the-mill machine gun actually punch through that armor?
nudibranch wrote: I know this is 30k, but the fact a single apothecary can effectively patch up 20 marines by himself.
It probably just involves a big dose of painkillers and yelling about the emperor a bit.
I know the images i got when my templar captain was at 1 wound and killed a lord of change involved him using his broken arm bones to jab it in the eyes ... marines can always get bionics after the battle right, all the better to punch heretics in the throat with when you can get a built in powerfist.
nudibranch wrote: I know this is 30k, but the fact a single apothecary can effectively patch up 20 marines by himself.
It probably just involves a big dose of painkillers and yelling about the emperor a bit.
I know the images i got when my templar captain was at 1 wound and killed a lord of change involved him using his broken arm bones to jab it in the eyes ... marines can always get bionics after the battle right, all the better to punch heretics in the throat with when you can get a built in powerfist.
I'm just picturing a marine with a big white bag running around frantically hurling fistfuls of morphine needles in the air...
nudibranch wrote: I know this is 30k, but the fact a single apothecary can effectively patch up 20 marines by himself.
It probably just involves a big dose of painkillers and yelling about the emperor a bit.
I know the images i got when my templar captain was at 1 wound and killed a lord of change involved him using his broken arm bones to jab it in the eyes ... marines can always get bionics after the battle right, all the better to punch heretics in the throat with when you can get a built in powerfist.
I'm just picturing a marine with a big white bag running around frantically hurling fistfuls of morphine needles in the air...
Thats why space marine heros never wear helmets, a good apothecary can nail them in the forehead with a hypodermic at 20 paces to keep them in the fight
I could also imagine a grav centurion finding a lone Grot hiding somewhere, the last one on an imporrtant objective. He gets close enough to fire the grav cannon execution-style at the Grot... only for the Grot to go completely unharmed. The Marine fires even harder, still to no avail.
KommissarKiln wrote: I could also imagine a grav centurion finding a lone Grot hiding somewhere, the last one on an imporrtant objective. He gets close enough to fire the grav cannon execution-style at the Grot... only for the Grot to go completely unharmed. The Marine fires even harder, still to no avail.
And then due to the special rules each one has the Grot has the strength to secure the objective despite the Centurions protestations.
I've got one, playing Eldar/DE against Tau. Tau annihilate DSing scouges (all with blasters except for the one scourge with a splinter rifle. Frank the scourge charges a unit of 6 fire warriors, all OW shots miss, deals out 2 wounds,squad fails morale Frank sweeping advances them he then sets his sights on a unit of markerlights (no OW but have 1 attack in CC and a 4+ save) markerlights fail morale and Frank sweeping advances them.
Frank earned his wings that day and is now legend in the halls of Commoragh
Imperial Guard squad is charge by a Solitaire.
Despite being absolutely terrified (failed fear test) their ability to fight is completely unaffected
(ws3/1 vs Ws 9 is the same)
Leman Russ Battle tank is shooting at the enemy in front of the tank 6" away. Shot scatters full 12" back, (minus BS) and the explosion kills few guardsmen who stand by the side of that tank.
Hawky wrote: Leman Russ Battle tank is shooting at the enemy in front of the tank 6" away. Shot scatters full 12" back, (minus BS) and the explosion kills few guardsmen who stand by the side of that tank.
HOW!
Guard training isn't exactly extensive ... 'heres a lasgun, go shoot the green monsters' covers it.
Armored divisions aren't much better.
Chances are the rookie gunner got the front and back of the tank mixed up because it looks the same in his targeter then panicked and shot the first thing that moved ... pretty realistic fluffwise i'd say!
Hawky wrote: Leman Russ Battle tank is shooting at the enemy in front of the tank 6" away. Shot scatters full 12" back, (minus BS) and the explosion kills few guardsmen who stand by the side of that tank.
HOW!
Guard training isn't exactly extensive ... 'heres a lasgun, go shoot the green monsters' covers it.
Armored divisions aren't much better.
That depends entirely of where your Guard unit is from. This is a quite annoying misconception
Actually that's probably the most plausible, this is the Ogryn that carried an entire Chimera across a battlefield to a Commissar to get him fixed up.
Though I think my favorite rule is that Jain Zhar, master of the Disarming Strike can prevents Weapons like a Reaper Chainsword from being used if locked in a challenge with a Character Imperial Knight.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Though I think my favorite rule is that Jain Zhar, master of the Disarming Strike can prevents Weapons like a Reaper Chainsword from being used if locked in a challenge with a Character Imperial Knight.
She has haywire grenades, no? A well-placed one should knock the chainsword arm out cold.
Or if not, a strike with that blade of hers to the right wires...
*Marines are opening fire on the front of an AV15 monstrosity, doing nothing.
*Warlord slams his foot into the ground, raises his hand high, and declares, "All of your shots are now rending!"
*The bullets suddenly start destroying the target
Mine is about the Tyranid Lictor. These things are described as extremely lethal, with hooks, barbs and poison everywhere. Now back in 3rd or 4th edition lictors could charge right after deep striking (ambushing), and my nids were facing guardsmen. There's a short story in the 2nd ed nid codex about how a single lictor does horrible things to a squad of guardsmen, and I had read that story often.
So, inevitably, my lone lictor hides in some bushes and ambushes a full squad of catachans, with me very excited to reenact an awesome story. This started nicely as it shredded two or three of the horrendously outmatched humans. Then the catachans kicked it's tentacles in (1w left), and would have killed it the next round if it wasn't for Hit and Run. That lictor spent the rest of that battle cowering behind some trees, terrified of catachans. Monstrous killing machine, riiiiight.
Come to think of it, this was the first and last time I ever fielded a lictor.
Be guardsman. Officier yells "Fire on my target!", while pointing at it with his finger.
Suddenly all obstacles between you and his target disappear, leaving clear firing line.
Hawky wrote: Be guardsman. Officier yells "Fire on my target!", while pointing at it with his finger.
Suddenly all obstacles between you and his target disappear, leaving clear firing line.
Expanding on this is tau sensor suite relic. Uses thermal scans, xrays, echo location and all manner of advanced electronics and mapping tech to allow one to ignore the walls your enemy cowers behind. And is a rare experimental piece of gear.
Guard officers achieve same effects with stand issue binoculars and shouting very loudly.
I know it's been done between GW stores, one store called another told them they were launching Deathstrike missiles at whatever game was going on at the time
Get hit by bolter round. Your arm is blown off. You fall to the ground screaming. You see the doc approaching. You desperately pick up the lasgun with your other hand and cry 'I'm fine, I'm fine!'
The doc hits you up with a powerful pain cancelling drug, slaps a temporary mechanical limb on you and you're good to go, till the limb shuts off, at least.
Or that's how it works for Scions, I am guessing Guardsmen would have to brace their lasguns on something and fire them one handed.
The guardsman would probably be punished for allowing munitorum property (ie the flakk armour) to be damaged so while he's being flogged or executed or forced to do some menial task back at whatever camp the lasgun would be handed over to the next guy.
Verviedi wrote: ...I haven't smiled so hard in nearly a month. Thank you for that, MoO.
Edit. And it made me laugh, too. Welcome to the club of maybe ten people on Dakka who've managed that.
Youare welcome, I aim to please
On the subject of IG orders:
My officer has a perfectly good radio next to him, and the unit he is trying to issue said order too has a perfectly good radio, indeed the entire army has a comms network for communication, but he still prefers toSHOUT LOUDLY at them instead... Why?
Ashiraya wrote: Maybe it uses LD to check for orders (which means characters etc have a higher chance) because the characters have better comms equipment?
Battlefields can be extremely loud and there can also be all kinds of interference so it makes sense that orders are not always easy to get out.
But when you have a massive super powered comms device with a huge loud speaker mounted on it....
Limiting the range to yodelling distance does seem really, really, stupid, especially as comms would actually make it easier to hear the orders anyway.
Ashiraya wrote: Maybe it uses LD to check for orders (which means characters etc have a higher chance) because the characters have better comms equipment?
Battlefields can be extremely loud and there can also be all kinds of interference so it makes sense that orders are not always easy to get out.
But when you have a massive super powered comms device with a huge loud speaker mounted on it....
Limiting the range to yodelling distance does seem really, really, stupid, especially as comms would actually make it easier to hear the orders anyway.
This has always bugged me. You have comms, use them!
Ashiraya wrote: Maybe it uses LD to check for orders (which means characters etc have a higher chance) because the characters have better comms equipment?
Battlefields can be extremely loud and there can also be all kinds of interference so it makes sense that orders are not always easy to get out.
But when you have a massive super powered comms device with a huge loud speaker mounted on it....
Limiting the range to yodelling distance does seem really, really, stupid, especially as comms would actually make it easier to hear the orders anyway.
Yodelling distance? Well, I think I found my next conversion project idea. Have an exalt and keep the good stuff coming.
Ashiraya wrote: Maybe it uses LD to check for orders (which means characters etc have a higher chance) because the characters have better comms equipment?
Battlefields can be extremely loud and there can also be all kinds of interference so it makes sense that orders are not always easy to get out.
But when you have a massive super powered comms device with a huge loud speaker mounted on it....
Limiting the range to yodelling distance does seem really, really, stupid, especially as comms would actually make it easier to hear the orders anyway.
Well yes, the range is another matter. Voxcasters should make them global.
Some of my favorites are Imperial Guard/Astra Militarum Orders:
"Men, shoot better!" (Ignores Cover)
"Men, shoot more than you did before!" (First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire)
"Shoot and run wildly, but stay accurate!"
"Heavy Weapons Team; do a better job of taking out that Tank!"
"Special Weapons Team, shoot that Monster more betterer!"
The entire time I just think of the entire squad just going "Oh, sure! I never thought of that, great job!"
The rules for shooting at swooping FMC's can generate some head-scratchers. Like when a FMC is on the other side of a ruin and out of line of sight of a unit, but it's actually flying and therefore could not physically end up below the building where the squad can't see it without running into something. And if it is flying that low, why is it so hard for another squad that's inches away (on the TT) to be able to hit it?
A trooper with a melta gun in an Imperial Guard squad aims at a Chaos Predator. Instead of firing at the Chaos Space Marines escorting the tank all his friends use their flashlights to illuminate the tanks armor.
WraithKnight stomping on some Chaos Space marines who shrug off the massive foot due to their armour.
Magnus charges in, but is unable to kill it, the Wraithknight jumps high into the air, drops down feet first aiming a his face, and crushes magnus completely.
Then proceeds to constantly bounce of the power armour of the marines that he keeps stomping on....
Unit of deepstriking Immortals and Cryptek can't land on the guardsmen they were targeting... So they just splat into the ground and all die. They repair themselves in time for a later, separate battle, but then they die a second time because they couldn't find where the battle was happening (scattered off the board)
Necrons get massacred by well prepared defensive position. Autocannons, Lascannons and artillery tears the necrons into pieces that flies all over. Lord come in, and yells "STOP BEING SUCH USELESS PILE OF JUNK!". Suddenly, Necron parts start to crawl to each other, slowely forming new, functional warriors ready to get blown up again.
I’m playing games of mostly foot slogging orks:
Turn 2 Warboss calls a waaagggh
Orks move 6 then run another 4”.... 10 inch move
Ork trukk, flatouts 24”
Orks boyz in charge range of 5 marines, move 6”, run 4”, charge 11”, pile in 3” consolidate 6”... for a 30” move..
Ok these were pretty good rolls but it’s happened a few times for me and i only play a couple of times a month.
Orks that take the time to engage in close combat... with 4 attacks (so at least 4 swings of those huges axes) move faster than orks dedicated to running and covering as much ground as possible, 3 times as fast in fact, and faster than a ‘fast’ vehicle moving full speed.
Suspending disbelief as it’s a fantasy future universe, i can’t really see how it makes sense. Even on a non waaagh turn you get stupid movements.
Oh yeah, that and the 'no, you cant shoot that towering wraith knight as its currently in combat with some fearless grots' who are obscuring it as a target.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Also one of my first favorites. Penal legionnaires with rending! Basically in the 5th edition guard codex it was very possible to roll up rending and even possible to take out a carnifex with one. Improbably yes but i wanted to model a downed carnifex with knife wounds all over it and a bunch of penal legionnaires on top of it. Realistically it is insanely stupid but it could be a legit thing back then.
Prison changes people, yo.
Speaking of old favorites, my old favorite from 5th edition was you could attach an Independent Character to Snikrot's Kommando unit and it could arrive Behind Enemy Lines with them, as the ability was granted by Snikrot to his unit, and it wasn't Outflanking as this rule was from 4th before Outflank was a thing.
So you could easily have these sneaky Orks sneaking a Bike Warboss or Mad Doc Grotsnik behind enemy lines. Yeah.
An Imperial Guard Commissar is fighting alongside a Guard section when the sheer horror of war causes them to break and flee. Realising that he needs to make an example of one, lest the line break, the Commissar turns his Bolt Pistol on himself and blows his own brains out, causing the section to rethink their actions.
(Under the rules the Commissar must execute the model with the highest LD, usually himself. Now, the rules state that a Commissar cannot shoot another Commissar, but due to the wording he cannot shoot ANOTHER Commissar, but he can shoot himself)
Necrons get massacred by well prepared defensive position. Autocannons, Lascannons and artillery tears the necrons into pieces that flies all over. Lord come in, and yells "STOP BEING SUCH USELESS PILE OF JUNK!". Suddenly, Necron parts start to crawl to each other, slowely forming new, functional warriors ready to get blown up again.
master of ordinance wrote: An Imperial Guard Commissar is fighting alongside a Guard section when the sheer horror of war causes them to break and flee. Realising that he needs to make an example of one, lest the line break, the Commissar turns his Bolt Pistol on himself and blows his own brains out, causing the section to rethink their actions.
(Under the rules the Commissar must execute the model with the highest LD, usually himself. Now, the rules state that a Commissar cannot shoot another Commissar, but due to the wording he cannot shoot ANOTHER Commissar, but he can shoot himself)
It makes sense though. For morale checks you use the model with the highest LD. If the squad flees, it is because he failed. So he is the one who is guilty.
IronMaster wrote: Some of my favorites are Imperial Guard/Astra Militarum Orders:
"Men, shoot better!" (Ignores Cover)
"Men, shoot more than you did before!" (First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire)
"Shoot and run wildly, but stay accurate!"
"Heavy Weapons Team; do a better job of taking out that Tank!"
"Special Weapons Team, shoot that Monster more betterer!"
The entire time I just think of the entire squad just going "Oh, sure! I never thought of that, great job!"
I like to imagine that the Imperial Guard is run by people so utterly incompetent and dedicated to following the rules that Imperial Guardsman can only fire effectively when they are ordered to do so.
master of ordinance wrote: An Imperial Guard Commissar is fighting alongside a Guard section when the sheer horror of war causes them to break and flee. Realising that he needs to make an example of one, lest the line break, the Commissar turns his Bolt Pistol on himself and blows his own brains out, causing the section to rethink their actions.
(Under the rules the Commissar must execute the model with the highest LD, usually himself. Now, the rules state that a Commissar cannot shoot another Commissar, but due to the wording he cannot shoot ANOTHER Commissar, but he can shoot himself)
even better was if the squad had an attached Inquisitor...
master of ordinance wrote: An Imperial Guard Commissar is fighting alongside a Guard section when the sheer horror of war causes them to break and flee. Realising that he needs to make an example of one, lest the line break, the Commissar turns his Bolt Pistol on himself and blows his own brains out, causing the section to rethink their actions.
(Under the rules the Commissar must execute the model with the highest LD, usually himself. Now, the rules state that a Commissar cannot shoot another Commissar, but due to the wording he cannot shoot ANOTHER Commissar, but he can shoot himself)
even better was if the squad had an attached Inquisitor...
I like to imagine an attached SM chapter master. They're not fearless and CLEARLY that squad staying put is worth the dead chapter master...
master of ordinance wrote: An Imperial Guard Commissar is fighting alongside a Guard section when the sheer horror of war causes them to break and flee. Realising that he needs to make an example of one, lest the line break, the Commissar turns his Bolt Pistol on himself and blows his own brains out, causing the section to rethink their actions.
(Under the rules the Commissar must execute the model with the highest LD, usually himself. Now, the rules state that a Commissar cannot shoot another Commissar, but due to the wording he cannot shoot ANOTHER Commissar, but he can shoot himself)
No, the rule specifies that the Commissar himself can't be chosen as the target.
You roll a dice to determine if you or the opponent gets to pick who dies.
master of ordinance wrote: An Imperial Guard Commissar is fighting alongside a Guard section when the sheer horror of war causes them to break and flee. Realising that he needs to make an example of one, lest the line break, the Commissar turns his Bolt Pistol on himself and blows his own brains out, causing the section to rethink their actions.
(Under the rules the Commissar must execute the model with the highest LD, usually himself. Now, the rules state that a Commissar cannot shoot another Commissar, but due to the wording he cannot shoot ANOTHER Commissar, but he can shoot himself)
My favourite one from this was when a friend had attached Marneus Calgar to a squad and used his old rule to pass or fail any moral check. He wanted to try leg it so elected to fail, at which point his opponent said the commisar in the squad would use his rule. Highest leadership was Calgar at the time.
One swift blam later, dead Chapter Master but at least the guardsmen were motivated to stay in the fight.
The outflanking rules (after last night)
Apparently my highly trained and efficient veteran guardsmen cannot see or shoot at the huge hulking 30K veterans who are walking right up to them (my opponent outflanked and deployed as close as he possibly could to my units).
imperial plasma gunner... prepares to fire hit weapon, it burns his hand, he is no longer in the fight.... apparently the mechanicum needs an STC for oven mitts.
on a related subject.
melta gunner opens up a tank, the squad assaults the squad exiting the vehicle. melta gunner is lost in the ensuing combat. his gun is left behind as nobody else was trained in its use or willing to give it the old college try (who is running this army!)
Ashiraya wrote: They snuck in close and then suddenly appeared, to your dudes' shock.
Getting to fire would have made less sense!
They outflanked, they didnt infiltrate, which means they came from another section of the battlefield (dont forget each 40K game is basically one firefight in Epic).... But for some reason they where able to walk up to within 10 feet of my guys without coming under fire once.
Ashiraya wrote: They snuck in close and then suddenly appeared, to your dudes' shock.
Getting to fire would have made less sense!
They outflanked, they didnt infiltrate, which means they came from another section of the battlefield (dont forget each 40K game is basically one firefight in Epic).... But for some reason they where able to walk up to within 10 feet of my guys without coming under fire once.
So? You can outflank too. Creed can outflank just about anything.
master of ordinance wrote: An Imperial Guard Commissar is fighting alongside a Guard section when the sheer horror of war causes them to break and flee. Realising that he needs to make an example of one, lest the line break, the Commissar turns his Bolt Pistol on himself and blows his own brains out, causing the section to rethink their actions.
(Under the rules the Commissar must execute the model with the highest LD, usually himself. Now, the rules state that a Commissar cannot shoot another Commissar, but due to the wording he cannot shoot ANOTHER Commissar, but he can shoot himself)
My favourite one from this was when a friend had attached Marneus Calgar to a squad and used his old rule to pass or fail any moral check. He wanted to try leg it so elected to fail, at which point his opponent said the commisar in the squad would use his rule. Highest leadership was Calgar at the time.
One swift blam later, dead Chapter Master but at least the guardsmen were motivated to stay in the fight.
That... Wow. Just wow. Poor Calgar, poor commissar, poor imperium at large, but so much karmic justice for crappy fluff.
Brother-Sergeant! I believe a group of foul Eldar are lurking 10 meters in front of us, using their xeno witchery to hide themselves!
Battle Brothers! Purge the xeno! Although our auspexes fail us, the Emperor shall still guide our aim! Wait, Brother Dardus, put down your flamer, it will avail us naught! Draw your bolt pistol and fire at random in that direction!
Uh, Brother-Sergeant, you realize this flamer sprays blessed promethium over everything in a 15--degree arc, and will bake those Eldar alive, right?
No, just listen,you can't use your flamer, the Emperor forbids it. And Brother Ovitius, put those grenades away!
What the hell are you talking about, Brother Sergeant? I can hear where they are and probably get 2-3 of 'am!
I will not tell you again! The Emperor wills us to fight unseen enemies not with area effect weapons, but instead with magdumping our slow-firing, low-capacity weapons!
But Brother-Sergeant, we'll never hit them firing like that!
Sure we will. In fact, we'll still be 25% as accurate as usual!
Eldar Shortseer wrote: Brother-Sergeant! I believe a group of foul Eldar are lurking 10 meters in front of us, using their xeno witchery to hide themselves!
Battle Brothers! Purge the xeno! Although our auspexes fail us, the Emperor shall still guide our aim! Wait, Brother Dardus, put down your flamer, it will avail us naught! Draw your bolt pistol and fire at random in that direction!
Uh, Brother-Sergeant, you realize this flamer sprays blessed promethium over everything in a 15--degree arc, and will bake those Eldar alive, right?
No, just listen,you can't use your flamer, the Emperor forbids it. And Brother Ovitius, put those grenades away!
What the hell are you talking about, Brother Sergeant? I can hear where they are and probably get 2-3 of 'am!
I will not tell you again! The Emperor wills us to fight unseen enemies not with area effect weapons, but instead with magdumping our slow-firing, low-capacity weapons!
But Brother-Sergeant, we'll never hit them firing like that!
Sure we will. In fact, we'll still be 25% as accurate as usual!
Hehehehe, this one always got me. Along with the whole "they are invisible, but they still block line of sight" thing. I still do not understand why I cannot just flamer an area of invisible models, or barrage the living crap out of where my troops think they are.
(Also the wording needs working on - Timmy has tried to claim several times that a blast that clips models in an invisible unit needs to roll a 6 to hit each of them. Each time he has been proven wrong)
Eldar Shortseer wrote: Brother-Sergeant! I believe a group of foul Eldar are lurking 10 meters in front of us, using their xeno witchery to hide themselves!
Battle Brothers! Purge the xeno! Although our auspexes fail us, the Emperor shall still guide our aim! Wait, Brother Dardus, put down your flamer, it will avail us naught! Draw your bolt pistol and fire at random in that direction!
Uh, Brother-Sergeant, you realize this flamer sprays blessed promethium over everything in a 15--degree arc, and will bake those Eldar alive, right?
No, just listen,you can't use your flamer, the Emperor forbids it. And Brother Ovitius, put those grenades away!
What the hell are you talking about, Brother Sergeant? I can hear where they are and probably get 2-3 of 'am!
I will not tell you again! The Emperor wills us to fight unseen enemies not with area effect weapons, but instead with magdumping our slow-firing, low-capacity weapons!
But Brother-Sergeant, we'll never hit them firing like that!
Sure we will. In fact, we'll still be 25% as accurate as usual!
Hehehehe, this one always got me. Along with the whole "they are invisible, but they still block line of sight" thing. I still do not understand why I cannot just flamer an area of invisible models, or barrage the living crap out of where my troops think they are.
(Also the wording needs working on - Timmy has tried to claim several times that a blast that clips models in an invisible unit needs to roll a 6 to hit each of them. Each time he has been proven wrong)
Would make more sense, and be slightly less cheesy, if it simply meant you were BS1 when targetting the unit.
Blasts and templates still a viable tool.
Jbz` wrote: Squad levels meltaguns at Avatar of Khaine.
No effect....
Squad charges in and slaps a Melta bomb in it's face and manage to injure it.....
I'm personally glad to see a little life back in this thread.
As of R.G.'s release, the fact that he physically cannot harm an Avatar because his only CC profile has Soul Blaze. He can keep swinging and swinging and it will just laugh off the blows. (It is the Avatars that have the Soul Blaze immunity, right?)
Jbz` wrote: Squad levels meltaguns at Avatar of Khaine.
No effect....
Squad charges in and slaps a Melta bomb in it's face and manage to injure it.....
I'm personally glad to see a little life back in this thread.
As of R.G.'s release, the fact that he physically cannot harm an Avatar because his only CC profile has Soul Blaze. He can keep swinging and swinging and it will just laugh off the blows. (It is the Avatars that have the Soul Blaze immunity, right?)
Yes it is.
It's also funny how Space Marine players seem desperate to find a way around being unable to hurt ONE specific model in the game (that is barely, used anyway)
Jbz` wrote: Squad levels meltaguns at Avatar of Khaine.
No effect....
Squad charges in and slaps a Melta bomb in it's face and manage to injure it.....
I'm personally glad to see a little life back in this thread.
As of R.G.'s release, the fact that he physically cannot harm an Avatar because his only CC profile has Soul Blaze. He can keep swinging and swinging and it will just laugh off the blows. (It is the Avatars that have the Soul Blaze immunity, right?)
Yep it's the single best piece of poetic justice I've ever heard in the 40k universe.
Jbz` wrote: Squad levels meltaguns at Avatar of Khaine.
No effect....
Squad charges in and slaps a Melta bomb in it's face and manage to injure it.....
I'm personally glad to see a little life back in this thread.
As of R.G.'s release, the fact that he physically cannot harm an Avatar because his only CC profile has Soul Blaze. He can keep swinging and swinging and it will just laugh off the blows. (It is the Avatars that have the Soul Blaze immunity, right?)
Yep it's the single best piece of poetic justice I've ever heard in the 40k universe.
Guilliman can still hurt it with Smash though.
Smash doesn't replace your weapon profile, bro. No Smashy Smash for Guilliman.
*Tau running at top speed suddenly stop*
"why did we stop?" asks a fire warrior
"its not our turn" says another
"shouldn't we get behind cover at least?"
"No, no more moving it's not our turn!"
"but, there's a massive wall there, couldn't we-"
proceeds to be shot to death by a small eldar squad that walks out from behind a bush
Tiggy stands next to a sisters of silence unit and gets all messed up while trying to cast powers.
Tiggy gets in the sisters of silence new rhino that also has the aura, WITH the sisters squad, and proceeds to fire witchfires out the hatch with no issue.
Valkyrie flies over the battlefield and paratroopers are jumping out. They all land packed at each othe like bunch of prison shower homosexuals, but one of them stands on a fence post. Dice rolls and suddenly:
1) The guy on a fence post dies and the rest of the squad commits suicide
2) They all teleport somewhere, where is no battle at all.
3) Valkyrie swiftly returns, they embark it and paradrop is repeated once again, from higher attitude and presumably somewhere else.
or how about this
*SM about to start raining bullets on eldar*
one SM speaks up
"sir I can't see them"
entire unit is now unable to locate the eldars 2 feet away.
I don't get that one, the models that have LoS can still fire, just that one guy that can't see cannot.
or how about this
*SM about to start raining bullets on eldar*
one SM speaks up
"sir I can't see them"
entire unit is now unable to locate the eldars 2 feet away.
I don't get that one, the models that have LoS can still fire, just that one guy that can't see cannot.
Possibly a reference to Invis Stars?
Similarly, imagine a situation where 4/5 Marines round a corner and get obliterated by the blast from a Leman Russ. The 5th Marine, being caught in the blast but out of the tank's vision, goes unharmed. LoS with blasts doesn't quite work like that anymore, but when it did it was awfully frustrating.
k this guardsman in particular" he says as he pulls the trigger. A single heretic falls to his mighty weapon.
, wounded on 
, the Marines are completely unharmed. The ground around the squad and the Captain's armor are all scorched and blackened, but somehow the Devastators' armor is still pristine.*
