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...I loved that book. And I kind of want to try that, now. Not enough that 5,000,000,000 people dying is worth it, of course.

 Verviedi wrote:

Spoiler:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
According to the rules of the game, a Land Raider can tank an amount of heavy stubber bullets that would deorbit the moon.
(2 million M2 Browning machine guns constantly firing for 90,000,000 years or so)

To be fair, we have tech that will de-orbit the Moon in a matter of minutes in the right circumstances.

https://what-if.xkcd.com/13/

Basically, we'd need 5 billion or so of the world's most powerful pulse laser, enough energy to run them all continuously instead of in brief pulses, then we give 1 to each human who will be able to use it, aim them at the Moon together, and all push the buttons together.

This does two very interesting things VERY quickly.

1. 5 billion humans die instantly, as does most life on half of the planet.
2. The moon is now being pushed out of orbit.

In short order, a few more interesting things happen.

3. The rest of the life on Earth dies.
4. The Moon feths off and wanders around outside of Earth's orbit.

And very shortly after that.

5. Earth is uninhabitable and has no moon using technology we possess today (if we made about 5 billion of them and powered them all to full capacity, both of which are things we can't do today).

Not really relevant, but I heard "deorbit the moon" and I was reminded of this.

If you wanna tie it into 40k, basically what it means is that we have laser tech powerful enough that the Imperium could make an Exterminatus weapon out of a pulse laser created in the real world, today.

Anyways, carry on!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and about that example.

I'd say that a better example is that according to the rules of the game, a Land Raider can tank an amount of heavy stubber bullets that would wear away at a Land Raider atom by atom until there is nothing left of the Land Raider.

Because the correct number for "number of heavy stubber bullets a Land Raider can tank" is "infinity," therefore I'm pretty sure you could also say it could tank enough heavy stubber bullets to destroy the entire universe.

...I loved that book. And I kind of want to try that, now. Not enough that 5,000,000,000 people dying is worth it, of course.

I liked the one where he finds a way to cause a city-ending nuclear explosion by throwing a baseball hard enough.

Suppose I'll do a silly one that happened a year or so back. A chaos terminator lord stands alone ontop of a tall ruin (14" above the table) overlooking the battlefield. His terminator bodyguards are all on levels below him (closest being on the next floor, furthest on the ground). Far away he sees a Leman russ tank rotate it's turret and fire at him. He has no time to dodge and the shot hits him head on, blowing a huge hole in the ruin. It would have destroyed him on the spot if it wasn't for a piece of the building breaking and shielding him to then spiral down and land hard enough to kill a terminator on the ground who happened to be a little bit closer to the tank.

Curse the "closest guy dies" rule.

locarno24 wrote:A chaos cultist champion using a comm relay to reroll reserve rolls......for daemons.

I mean, who's he calling?

"Thank you for ringing Skull Throne Direct. If you want to speak to a daemon prince in customer support, press 1...."

"Thank you for calling Comcast . . ."

Marines having more individual people in their army than Guard.

 Melissia wrote:
Marines having more individual people in their army than Guard.

Isn't it really weird that the Marine codex and formations basically encourage outnumbering your opponent, overrunning them and zerging them with MSU troops?

It's a real design headscratcher.

How about this:

Bikes probably have all sorts of fancy targeting systems and stuff yet you cannot shoot their weapons while turbo-boosting, yet focusing hard and maintaining the mental discipline to manifest Psychic Powers while piloting a death machine at breakneck speeds is no problem at all.

Imagine if a White Scars conclave did an attack run on the Deathstar or so (hypothetical of course, let's assume they get jerbikes or so because why not?)

"Use the Warp, Subotai."

"Battle-Brother, you switched off your main targeting cogitator. Is everything alright?"

"Don't worry, manifesting Psychic Powers is its own phase. I'll manifest Flayerstorm now."

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Marines having more individual people in their army than Guard.

Isn't it really weird that the Marine codex and formations basically encourage outnumbering your opponent, overrunning them and zerging them with MSU troops?

It's a real design headscratcher.

I'll explain.

If they design LSM as a horde army, then they can sell more Space Marine models.

Space Marine kits are already more expensive than horde army kits, because people expect they'll need fewer of them.

So GW makes more money if they design LSM as a horde army.

Yes, we're aware. Still makes it ridiculous.

 Melissia wrote:
Yes, we're aware. Still makes it ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous?

I mean, prior to that, you had a force of like 50 Marines going up against 100 Orks and sometimes the Marines didn't wipe out every Ork with 0 casualties of their own.

That's ridiculous.

That is what happens when you write a setting and make a game for it that flat out isn't compatible with it on an out-of-universe logistical level.

Like how entire chapters would be wiped out in one afternoon vs Tau.

Every game containing IG or Tyranids is basically an automatic strategic victory for them from the outset. It's pretty funny.

GW doesn't understand how big a galaxy is, or even how big planets are.

 Abanshee wrote:
Space Marines being unable to run out of a rhino to charge someone, but having enough time to train their bolters at a target to fire upon said target.

*Marines stampede out of rhino*

*swords held high and proud above their heads*

*Freeze up all of the sudden*

*Dozens of "Error: you cannot perform that action" signs pop up*

Professor Oak: There is a time and place for everything, but not now!

This is an old one from the 6th edition Dark Eldr codex. A Raider with shock prow and flickerfield decide to ram an enemy vehicle with its shock prow, with its speed and prow its an easy pen but the Raider also suffers a pen from the impact. However the Raider makes it flickerfield save and no damage is taken and the enemy vehicle blows up.

The fun part is that flickerfield creates an illusionary double of the Raider thous giving it its save, and by that logic since the save was made the illusion is what crashed into the enemy vehicle and blew it up. xD


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another wierd one is that you have to do a sweeping advance wich only benefit Marines.
"Ok boys we can do this and chase these guys away from this objective no need to kill them" wins combat, marines fail their morale test and starts running, roll for Initiative. "Wait why are we chasing them? Stop just let them run we need this objective" Wins the roll thous losing 5points in objective cards...

 Bobthehero wrote:

 mew28 wrote:
I think my favorite is sternngaurd vets and guards men vets are as good at shooting. I mean surviving one battle compared to 100 years of constant training and battle are pretty much the same thing right?

Vets aren't vets after 1 battle...

2 battles then. Much more believable.

Back when fantasy was a thing there was toughness 3 1 wound goblins. You know those things probably half the size of a man and weak and they were just as tough and strong.

In the case of Fantasy and 40k poison in fantasy effecting the undead whereas an ogre butcher was immune (i kid you not). In 40k being able to poison an artillery emplacement to death. A friend joked that the artillery cannon would turn blue, green or purple and gain "x's" on its eyes with its tongue sticking out.

Also one of my first favorites. Penal legionnaires with rending! Basically in the 5th edition guard codex it was very possible to roll up rending and even possible to take out a carnifex with one. Improbably yes but i wanted to model a downed carnifex with knife wounds all over it and a bunch of penal legionnaires on top of it. Realistically it is insanely stupid but it could be a legit thing back then.

The other day I took an Inquisitor with a double set of Daemonblades.
All told, he got +3 attacks from each blade, Rage and Furious Charge, and Poisoned 2+.
So here's an inquisitor charging in with 11 attacks, flailing his fists wildly to slaughter entire squads on his own - I had a Ministorum Priest attached, so he ended up killing something like 8 or 9 Orks in a single assault.

I remember once that my wraithguard got killed by a dark eldar poisoned weapon designed to expand bones until the thing dies. Unfortunately instead of my wraithguard turning into wraithlords they died. Wraithbone should either count as bone and they just get bigger or it doesn't and nothing happens.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Also one of my first favorites. Penal legionnaires with rending! Basically in the 5th edition guard codex it was very possible to roll up rending and even possible to take out a carnifex with one. Improbably yes but i wanted to model a downed carnifex with knife wounds all over it and a bunch of penal legionnaires on top of it. Realistically it is insanely stupid but it could be a legit thing back then.

Prison changes people, yo.

Speaking of old favorites, my old favorite from 5th edition was you could attach an Independent Character to Snikrot's Kommando unit and it could arrive Behind Enemy Lines with them, as the ability was granted by Snikrot to his unit, and it wasn't Outflanking as this rule was from 4th before Outflank was a thing.

So you could easily have these sneaky Orks sneaking a Bike Warboss or Mad Doc Grotsnik behind enemy lines. Yeah.

 Battlegrinder wrote:
The inability to shoot into melee sometimes makes sense, sometimes not. For example:

The marine tactical sqaud had been ambushed by an understrength brood of termagaunts. Engaging in bitter, hand to claw combat, the marines slowly overwhelming the battered aliens, and one by one the termaguants fell. As the last pair of 'gaunts made thier final stand, the towering form of a carniflex appeared behind the marines, ready to unleash a torrent of bio-plasma that would leave nothing but scorched bones and melted ceramite behind......which it elected to refrain from doing, least it's attack also kill one, or worse both, of the termagaunts. The hive mind dared not take such a ruthless action, least the hive mind decide that the hive mind was too callous with it's troops and revolt against the hive mind.

And the converse of this: Terminators are locked in combat with a large squad of genestealers. A tactical squad equipped with a flamer is nearby - maybe it would help to bathe everybody in some promethium goodness to scrape some of the xenos threat from your battle brothers? Sure there should be some risk, but the upside makes too much sense.
We allow shooting into close combat with risks.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Yes, we're aware. Still makes it ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous?

I mean, prior to that, you had a force of like 50 Marines going up against 100 Orks and sometimes the Marines didn't wipe out every Ork with 0 casualties of their own.

Orks are just as tough as marines biologically (in fact, they're probably tougher; marines can't exactly survive decapitation like Orks can), and just as strong as Marines outside of their power armor, and further enhanced by a powerful psychic field that makes them even tougher, stronger, and faster the more of them there are in any given place. It'd be entirely unfluffy if there were no Marine casualties, especially since any Ork army that's merely 100 Orks and yet costs the same as 50 marines is bound to include a lot of specialist units that themselves are very much capable of causing casualties.

Remember, not every model that is removed because of losing its last wound is *dead*. They're simply rendered incapable of further combat for the purposes of the game.

But compare that to 50 marines vs ~30-40 guardsmen, who stand a greater chance of winning than the Orks.

 Melissia wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Yes, we're aware. Still makes it ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous?

I mean, prior to that, you had a force of like 50 Marines going up against 100 Orks and sometimes the Marines didn't wipe out every Ork with 0 casualties of their own.

Orks are just as tough as marines, and just as strong as Marines outside of their power armor, and further enhanced by a powerful psychic field that makes them even tougher, stronger, and faster. It'd be entirely unfluffy if there were no Marine casualties, especially since any Ork army that's merely 100 Orks and yet costs the same as 50 marines is bound to include a lot of specialist units that themselves are very much capable of causing casualties.

Remember, not every model that is removed because of losing its last wound is *dead*. They're simply rendered incapable of further combat for the purposes of the game.

Power Armor doesn't make the Marines stronger. Otherwise, Scouts would be S3, not S4.
Also, 100 orks does cost as much as 50 marines, if you give those orks Shootas. (Or, if we wind back to the last Ork codex, if you give those orks Stikkbombs.) Those are just standard, unequipped Ork Boyz with one piece of upgraded/extra wargear. And, it's worth mentioning, that we're talking silly mental images, not on-the-board tactics. 50 Space Marines should be enough to turn the tide of a war, 100 Ork Boyz is barely a rounding error when added to the Green Tide. But on the board, not only will the Ork Boyz win, they'll clean up and walk away happy.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Yes, we're aware. Still makes it ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous?

I mean, prior to that, you had a force of like 50 Marines going up against 100 Orks and sometimes the Marines didn't wipe out every Ork with 0 casualties of their own.

Orks are just as tough as marines, and just as strong as Marines outside of their power armor, and further enhanced by a powerful psychic field that makes them even tougher, stronger, and faster. It'd be entirely unfluffy if there were no Marine casualties, especially since any Ork army that's merely 100 Orks and yet costs the same as 50 marines is bound to include a lot of specialist units that themselves are very much capable of causing casualties.

Remember, not every model that is removed because of losing its last wound is *dead*. They're simply rendered incapable of further combat for the purposes of the game.

Power Armor doesn't make the Marines stronger. Otherwise, Scouts would be S3, not S4.
Also, 100 orks does cost as much as 50 marines, if you give those orks Shootas. (Or, if we wind back to the last Ork codex, if you give those orks Stikkbombs.) Those are just standard, unequipped Ork Boyz with one piece of upgraded/extra wargear. And, it's worth mentioning, that we're talking silly mental images, not on-the-board tactics. 50 Space Marines should be enough to turn the tide of a war, 100 Ork Boyz is barely a rounding error when added to the Green Tide. But on the board, not only will the Ork Boyz win, they'll clean up and walk away happy.

Space Marines have never been powerful enough on the tabletop.

Going way back, the Chaplains Rosarius used to 'flash' when he made a save, causing stunning blindness or somesuch to all models within a distance determined by the strength of the hit against which he saved. At the same time we had falling rules where you could take a hit with the strength based on the distance you fell. Put them together and you get...

I'm going to start the battle by tossing my chaplain out of a Thunderhawk at 10,000 feet...

Waaaghpower wrote:
Power Armor doesn't make the Marines stronger.

The lore disagrees. In fact, the lore SPECIFICALLY states in NUMEROUS places that power armor, especially Astartes power armor, gives them additional strength. The tabletop is a poor approximation of lore.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Also, 100 orks does cost as much as 50 marines

Let's test this out shall we?

Barebones Pinion Battle Company of 50 marines:
1 captain, 30 tacticals, 9 assaults, 5 devastators, 5 scouts.
Total 761 points.

Barebones Ork Warband of 100 boyz
1 warboss, 84 boyz, 10 gretchins + runtherd, 1 mek, 3 nobz. total 100 models (working with the assumption that the nobz, gretchin, and mek balance out pointswise)
Total 668 points with sluggaz, and 752 points with shootaz.

So, WHEN the Orks "upgrade" to Shootaz, they pay another ~93 points and are still nine points shy of the Marine force. But wait! Since we're talking about upgrades, let's think about this more seriously. What Marine force would go completely barebones, without any weaponry even on the devastator squads?

Let's give them a relatively light, anti-Ork loadout: Five flamers (one on each tac squad, two on the assault squad), four heavy bolters (on the dev squad), and turn the scouts in to snipers. This is still not really particularly realistic for a force a Marine player would actually deploy, but it's much moreso than the barebones one at least. And it results in.... 830 points. Add in jump packs, a few power weapons, camo on the scouts, and this raises the Pinion demi-company up to over 1000 points-- without taking any heavy weapons outside of basic heavy bolters on the devastators (and really, the devs would probably take something more expensive over heavy bolters).

For the Orks to match that, you'd need to increase the boyz count by quite a bit, give each boyz squad a weapon upgrade (shoota or rokkit, probably shoota really given BS2) give them all 'eavy armor, purchase more nobz or other specialist units, etc.

NivlacSupreme wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Yes, we're aware. Still makes it ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous?

I mean, prior to that, you had a force of like 50 Marines going up against 100 Orks and sometimes the Marines didn't wipe out every Ork with 0 casualties of their own.

Orks are just as tough as marines, and just as strong as Marines outside of their power armor, and further enhanced by a powerful psychic field that makes them even tougher, stronger, and faster. It'd be entirely unfluffy if there were no Marine casualties, especially since any Ork army that's merely 100 Orks and yet costs the same as 50 marines is bound to include a lot of specialist units that themselves are very much capable of causing casualties.

Remember, not every model that is removed because of losing its last wound is *dead*. They're simply rendered incapable of further combat for the purposes of the game.

Power Armor doesn't make the Marines stronger. Otherwise, Scouts would be S3, not S4.
Also, 100 orks does cost as much as 50 marines, if you give those orks Shootas. (Or, if we wind back to the last Ork codex, if you give those orks Stikkbombs.) Those are just standard, unequipped Ork Boyz with one piece of upgraded/extra wargear. And, it's worth mentioning, that we're talking silly mental images, not on-the-board tactics. 50 Space Marines should be enough to turn the tide of a war, 100 Ork Boyz is barely a rounding error when added to the Green Tide. But on the board, not only will the Ork Boyz win, they'll clean up and walk away happy.

Space Marines have never been powerful enough on the tabletop.

Early 3rd ed was close, but they were miscosted. GW fixed that by pooing out the 3 shot starcannon and turning marines back into target practice.

 don_mondo wrote:
Going way back, the Chaplains Rosarius used to 'flash' when he made a save, causing stunning blindness or somesuch to all models within a distance determined by the strength of the hit against which he saved. At the same time we had falling rules where you could take a hit with the strength based on the distance you fell. Put them together and you get...

I'm going to start the battle by tossing my chaplain out of a Thunderhawk at 10,000 feet...

aand he fails that save .
"Plan B: crash and burn! Banzai!"

Martel732 wrote:

NivlacSupreme wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Yes, we're aware. Still makes it ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous?

I mean, prior to that, you had a force of like 50 Marines going up against 100 Orks and sometimes the Marines didn't wipe out every Ork with 0 casualties of their own.

Orks are just as tough as marines, and just as strong as Marines outside of their power armor, and further enhanced by a powerful psychic field that makes them even tougher, stronger, and faster. It'd be entirely unfluffy if there were no Marine casualties, especially since any Ork army that's merely 100 Orks and yet costs the same as 50 marines is bound to include a lot of specialist units that themselves are very much capable of causing casualties.

Remember, not every model that is removed because of losing its last wound is *dead*. They're simply rendered incapable of further combat for the purposes of the game.

Power Armor doesn't make the Marines stronger. Otherwise, Scouts would be S3, not S4.
Also, 100 orks does cost as much as 50 marines, if you give those orks Shootas. (Or, if we wind back to the last Ork codex, if you give those orks Stikkbombs.) Those are just standard, unequipped Ork Boyz with one piece of upgraded/extra wargear. And, it's worth mentioning, that we're talking silly mental images, not on-the-board tactics. 50 Space Marines should be enough to turn the tide of a war, 100 Ork Boyz is barely a rounding error when added to the Green Tide. But on the board, not only will the Ork Boyz win, they'll clean up and walk away happy.

Space Marines have never been powerful enough on the tabletop.

Early 3rd ed was close, but they were miscosted. GW fixed that by pooing out the 3 shot starcannon and turning marines back into target practice.

im sure a 1000 + ork war clan would make turns go quck..

excuse me while i slide my 4 by 1-2 feet mass of ork minutures,