One of the arguments against going back to 1 per 3 special weapons on WIndriders is that the plastic kit includes the weapon options for all 3 bikes to have any of the weapons
But since Black Guardian Windriders are now an Elite choice for Eldar that has the same weapon options, I thought we could finally go back to Troop Windriders having only 1 per 3 special weapon.

Elite BG Windriders can still take any weapon choice, but Troops are limited, essentially making the plastic kit a dual-build kit.
While we are at it, lets make a change to Vypers, turning them into Eldar attack bikes

Keep the points cost and weapon options, but make them T4 jetbikes w/ 2 wounds and obviously drop any vehicle upgrades they can take.
Now we can take a Vyper squad as a Fast attack, or 1 in a Troop Windrider unit
This idea of a unit with 3+ Windriders and a Vyper is pretty cool and if only the Vyper and 1 per 3 Windriders can take special weapons, then the unit is less points efficient than now.
Hopefully this would make them more balanced since you would have to spend more points on the unit an get less weapons.

Thoughts?

-

There are a few problems with this model-wise; the Vyper is way too big to be a T4/2W jetbike, especially given that we've already seen what a 2W two-man Eldar Jetbike looks like (the Harlequin Skyweaver), and a large part (from a visual logic perspective) of why the Attack Bike exists for the Space Marines is that you can't put a heavy weapon on a Bike, whereas we know the Eldar can put whatever weapons they feel like in the underslung pod on their jetbikes (see: Corsairs with Dark Lances on the jetbike).

I wholeheartedly support 1-gun-per-3 in Troops Windrider units, and I agree that the Vyper needs a fix, but making it a jetbike that attaches to Windrider units is not the way to go. I'd rather see them become more flexible in their current role/do things the rest of the Eldar motor pool doesn't rather than become an overlarge and generally unnecessary model in the Windrider unit; they could get the 30k Malcador's rule to let them move and turbo-boost in the same turn (to seek side arc on enemy vehicles), they could get optional Skyfire on the turret, but whatever happens they should remain a vehicle and they shouldn't come attached to Windrider units.

I can see that, but given that the Vyper kit is showing it's age (the model once built looks great, but the sprue is a bit rough) GW could very easily get a re-sculpt kit that is 2 Vypers per box, similar to the Skyweavers kit. Keep the overall aesthetic, but make them a bit more sleek. Afterall, Skyweavers are about a long a Vypers, they just aren't as wide.

Maybe T5 would be good too. It would only really help the FA version, since majority T4 would come into play for any Vypers taken in WIndrider units
The main reason I think Vypers should have the option to be taken in Windrider units is the fluff. Vypers always seem described as A) jetbikes and B) supporting Windriders.
Most of the art/pictures of Vypers are surrounded by Windriders. They often work in concert and are way more connected than Ravenwing bikes are to their Speeders/attack bikes

-

So make a separate "Shrieker Jetbike" or "Windweaver" or something rather than deleting the Vyper and replacing it with this new unit you've just thought of.

(An actual update to the Vyper could include making it a dual-kit with a Craftworld Venom.)

Make scatterlasers 20 pts like an assault cannon and the whole thing is good. Windriders are a problem because of miscosting of the scatterlaser.

Martel732 wrote:
Make scatterlasers 20 pts like an assault cannon and the whole thing is good. Windriders are a problem because of miscosting of the scatterlaser.

This, or make the Scatter laser only str5. I would be ok with either change, but I would rather take cheaper (but still effective) units than more powerful ones. Plus, making the Scatter laser only Str5 also has the added bonus of making Shuricannons and Starcannons appear stronger and encourages a range of other options. I feel like even with 20pt Scats, player would still choose those over Shuricannons, and platforms that can take Starcannons still would prefer Scats. Str 5 is a more balancing solution IMO.

So let's say we make Scatter Lasers str5 and keep them 10pts.
Black Guardians bikes can still take the whole unit with Scats or Shuricannons.
Windriders can only take 1 per 3 bikes.

Vypers (and BG Vypers) are now T5, 2 wound jetbikes that can either be taken as Fast Attack (Elite for BGs) units of 1-6 bikes
Or 1 Vyper can be added to a Troop Windrider unit.

-

That's fine. Str 5 is a huge nerf.

Martel732 wrote:
That's fine. Str 5 is a huge nerf.

It is, but not as much as making them 20ppm. At that point, I'd rather just take Shuricannons.
While str5 makes it much less reliable as an anti-light vehicle weapon, the range and extra shot would still make it a tough choice for the Shuricannon. A choice that would really come down to what role you want them to do.
Stay back and plink shots at infantry? Or get just a wee bit closer and be a threat to tougher targets?
If the reduction is strength is too much, we could always just add another shot. Str5 Heavy 5? ...nah

Adding in a single Vyper to the unit and the choices multiply. Imagine 3 WIndrider with 1 Shuricannon and 1 Vyper with Starcannon & Shiricannon
Or 3 Windriders with a Brightlance Vyper. Not very points efficient, but the idea is cool and it would still cost less that 10 Guardians with 1 Bright lance.

-

I say give them a 4+, and Scatterlasers 15 points. No need to completely massacre the unit entry.

That's also an option and "feels" more like they should be but keep in mind how that would affect Farseers and Warlocks. Farseers would still be worth it, but Warlock Skyrunners are already on the fence about being worth taking.

Are you saying 15pt Scats, but every model can take them?
That could work, especially if they are now easier to kill.

 Galef wrote:
...Are you saying 15pt Scats, but every model can take them?...

...Do we really need to start this argument again?

At present scatterbikes are overpowered because you're paying 27pts for a heavy weapon. If you make the scatter laser 15pts you're now paying 32pts/weapon. If you leave the scatter laser at 10pts and restrict them to 1/3 of the unit you're paying 61pts for each weapon.

Why is it that the people who are most convinced the scatter laser is the most broken thing in existence are the people who want it to cost half as much as it would if you took the sensible solution? Is the Scatterbike merely 15% too cheap? Or is the problem that you get a heavy weapon on every model, unlike every Troops unit in the game?

There is no way in my mind that a scatterlaser in the current rule set is only 15 pts. It's every bit as good as an assault cannon. Even better, because of the platform.

I think the Str 5 nerf is actually bigger than a 10 pt price hike. S6 is so good in 7th ed. This can't be underestimated.

" If you leave the scatter laser at 10pts and restrict them to 1/3 of the unit you're paying 61pts for each weapon. "

The ship sailed on this "fix" with the current model kit. Just price them what they are worth with no restrictions. Which is 20 pts per gun. They do EVERYTHING. That should cost a LOT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I say give them a 4+, and Scatterlasers 15 points. No need to completely massacre the unit entry.

The 4+ massacres them worse than a price hike imo. They have jink every crappy heavy bolter that points their way.

Martel732 wrote:
There is no way in my mind that a scatterlaser in the current rule set is only 15 pts. It's every bit as good as an assault cannon. Even better, because of the platform.

I think the Str 5 nerf is actually bigger than a 10 pt price hike. S6 is so good in 7th ed. This can't be underestimated.

" If you leave the scatter laser at 10pts and restrict them to 1/3 of the unit you're paying 61pts for each weapon. "

The ship sailed on this "fix" with the current model kit. Just price them what they are worth with no restrictions. Which is 20 pts per gun. They do EVERYTHING. That should cost a LOT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I say give them a 4+, and Scatterlasers 15 points. No need to completely massacre the unit entry.

The 4+ massacres them worse than a price hike imo. They have jink every crappy heavy bolter that points their way.

They don't HAVE to. However, it gives AP4 a little better niche than previously.

It's the "every model gets one" that upsets most players. 99% of all other Troops in the game with special weapon options can only have a few per unit, thereby making the weapon cost its points, plus the points of the models that are sitting around doing nothing.

It is actually this ability to spam the Scatter laser that makes it seem broken. I used to play long before Bikes could take anything more than 1 Shuricannon per 3 model. At this time, Scatter lasers were consider ok, but only really using on War Walkers, which could spam them. This was still rarely considered broken unless you dedicated points to 3 War Walkers, a Faseer to guide them and yet another unit for the Farseer to bunker in. That's a lot of points.
The Scatter laser is NOT worth 20ppm, maybe 15, but only as a deterrent to spamming them. It you put in the mandatory limit to prevent the spam, you can keep the cost where it is.

Martel732 wrote:

The ship sailed on this "fix" with the current model kit. Just price them what they are worth with no restrictions. Which is 20 pts per gun. They do EVERYTHING. That should cost a LOT.
.

Previously, the existence of the plastic kit allowing all the models to take weapons was the reason why taking them back to 1 per 3 was illogical. But now that Black Guardian Windriders exist, an Elite choice that can have all the weapons, the Troop Windriders can go back to 1 per 3, without the plastic kit having "wasted" spare weapons.

You can also overnerf if not careful. only having a 4+ save, 1 weapon per 3 bikes and 20ppm for a str 5 Scatter laser will instantly make Windriders a garbage unit. The idea here is to choose the right 1 or 2 nerfs and be done.

Keeping Scatter lasers as they are, but 1 per 3 is a good SINGLE nerf.
Making Scatter str5 is a good SINGLE nerf (and my personally favorite)
Making WIndriders 4+ sv, but still taking weapons on every bike is a decent single nerf that could go well with 15ppm Scatters.

-

 Galef wrote:
That's also an option and "feels" more like they should be but keep in mind how that would affect Farseers and Warlocks. Farseers would still be worth it, but Warlock Skyrunners are already on the fence about being worth taking.

Are you saying 15pt Scats, but every model can take them?
That could work, especially if they are now easier to kill.

The Warlock Skyrunners will still be taken so long as there's a need for more Warp Charges as far as I know. People who weren't taking them still won't take them, and people who were are still going to. I think that says more about the cost of the Warlock than anything.

"The Scatter laser is NOT worth 20ppm"

It absolutely is. The thing effectively makes cover meaningless, it kills Imperial knights, it sandpapers out all cost effective tanks, it sandpapers out most MCs and outranges almost all AP 3 weapons worth talking about.

A Str 5 scatterlaser is a 10 pt weapon.

" But now that Black Guardian Windriders exist"

Then these become the new problem unit. Nothing is fixed.

" It you put in the mandatory limit to prevent the spam, you can keep the cost where it is."

No, you can't. Because it's objectively worth 20 points per gun. It's a 36" assault cannon on a jetbike or other mobile platform.

 Galef wrote:
It's the "every model gets one" that upsets most players. 99% of all other Troops in the game with special weapon options can only have a few per unit, thereby making the weapon cost its points, plus the points of the models that are sitting around doing nothing.

It is actually this ability to spam the Scatter laser that makes it seem broken. I used to play long before Bikes could take anything more than 1 Shuricannon per 3 model. At this time, Scatter lasers were consider ok, but only really using on War Walkers, which could spam them. This was still rarely considered broken unless you dedicated points to 3 War Walkers, a Faseer to guide them and yet another unit for the Farseer to bunker in. That's a lot of points.
The Scatter laser is NOT worth 20ppm, maybe 15, but only as a deterrent to spamming them. It you put in the mandatory limit to prevent the spam, you can keep the cost where it is.

Martel732 wrote:

The ship sailed on this "fix" with the current model kit. Just price them what they are worth with no restrictions. Which is 20 pts per gun. They do EVERYTHING. That should cost a LOT.
.

Previously, the existence of the plastic kit allowing all the models to take weapons was the reason why taking them back to 1 per 3 was illogical. But now that Black Guardian Windriders, an Elite choice, exist, the Troop Windriders can go back to 1 per 3, without the plastic kit having "wasted" spare weapons.

You can also overnerf if not careful. only having a 4+ save, 1 weapon per 3 bikes and 20ppm for a str 5 Scatter laser will instantly make Windriders a garbage unit. The idea here is to choose the right 1 or 2 nerfs and be done.

Keeping Scatter lasers as they are, but 1 per 3 is a good SINGLE nerf.
Making Scatter str5 is a good SINGLE nerf (and my personally favorite)
Making WIndriders 4+ sv, but still taking weapons on every bike is a decent single nerf that could go well with 15ppm Scatters.

-

Black Guardian Jetbikes are a different entity and too new to really use for comparisons. They're already more expensive in the first place aren't they?
Plus there's the Spears that still need some reworking...

Black guardian jetbikes better be 30 pt/model if the scatterlaser is only 10 pts.

The fact that they're Elites and not substitutable for standard Windriders in the Windrider Host makes them a lot harder to spam, actually.

jade_angel wrote:
The fact that they're Elites and not substitutable for standard Windriders in the Windrider Host makes them a lot harder to spam, actually.

A standard CAD could still bring what? 30?

Yeah, at the cost of no other Elites, and it'd be 3x10, which is a lot easier to deal with than 6x5. No more Elites rules out Wraithguard, BTW, unless you're using one of the formations with them, which usually have Wraithblades or Wraithlords as a tax.

Still strong, no doubt at all, since you can get most of the other Elites that are worth a damn through the Aspect Host formation, but at least a little harder to spam.

Black Guardian Windriders are 20ppm with TL catapults, BTW, with the usual 10 points for a scatter laser or shuricannon. Still too cheap, but that plus the move to Elites is a little less annoying.

I haven't seen many Wraithguard lately actually. Occasionally some in a serpent.

Scatter lasers and Assault cannons are not comparable, but let's assume for a moment that both cost 15ppm.

Scatter laser Pros:
-additional range

Assault cannon Pros:
-have better AP and Rending, therefore can threaten any unit no matter what

That is literally the only difference between the 2. Assault cannons are way better. The reason they blow in practice is the platforms they occupy. Scatter laser APPEAR way better than Assault cannons because you can get 10x more of them in a list on more mobile units.
If you could take Assault cannons in the same capacity, there would be no contest. Scatter Lasers "sand paper" units because they're everywhere. Assault cannons would "buzz saw" through anything they looked at if you could take 1 on every Marine biker.

I am trying to deal with that exact platform issue. Less Scatters mean they are way less effective. Less effectiveness means lower points cost.
We couldn't realistically talk about lowering the number of Scats because the kit physically came with so many, but now that a unit exists that is A) an Elite, thus never being ObSec or filling minimum slots and B) costs more to field, we can now discuss making the Troop Windriders only 1 per 3 again and the kit doesn't need to factor in anymore

-

 Galef wrote:
...

Martel732 wrote:

The ship sailed on this "fix" with the current model kit. Just price them what they are worth with no restrictions. Which is 20 pts per gun. They do EVERYTHING. That should cost a LOT.
.

Previously, the existence of the plastic kit allowing all the models to take weapons was the reason why taking them back to 1 per 3 was illogical. But now that Black Guardian Windriders exist, an Elite choice that can have all the weapons, the Troop Windriders can go back to 1 per 3, without the plastic kit having "wasted" spare weapons.

You can also overnerf if not careful. only having a 4+ save, 1 weapon per 3 bikes and 20ppm for a str 5 Scatter laser will instantly make Windriders a garbage unit. The idea here is to choose the right 1 or 2 nerfs and be done.

Keeping Scatter lasers as they are, but 1 per 3 is a good SINGLE nerf.
Making Scatter str5 is a good SINGLE nerf (and my personally favorite)
Making WIndriders 4+ sv, but still taking weapons on every bike is a decent single nerf that could go well with 15ppm Scatters.

-

4+ armour makes sense. You get to make Eldar jetbikes of the same shape and size broadly comparable across factions (if you buff Reavers to 4+ armour as well).

S5 makes sense. You're taking an anti-infantry heavy machine gun and making it operate at a similar strength to anti-infantry heavy machine guns in other armies. You're giving the shuriken cannon a more obvious niche. And you're taking a general-purpose gun and making it more general-purpose/less of the optimal choice at a specific task.

One heavy weapon per model makes NO SENSE. Look at an arbitrary imaginary unit that's composed of 3-12 jetbikes with heavy weapons and you're going to guess that it's a 30k Heavy Support unit, not a *bleep*ing ObSec-capable 40k Troops unit.

No matter how expensive you make the Scatter Laser you will NEVER make one gun per model make ANY SENSE.

"But you can build them that way in the kit!" is a stupid argument. You can build a Space Marine Tactical Squad with a plasmagun, a heavy bolter, a missile launcher, a meltagun, a grav-gun, and a flamer out of the kit, they give you the parts to do it. They don't give you the parts to build a plasma cannon or a lascannon in that kit, that doesn't mean you can't have them in Tactical Squads. You can build a Land Raider with both sponsons on the same side out of the kit, they give you the parts to do it. You can put four heavy weapon on a War Walker, they give you the parts in the kit to do it. That doesn't mean that's how the unit works in the game, that doesn't mean that's how it should work, and that's sure as h*** not a good reason to try and take the stupid solution to fixing scatterbikes instead of the sensible one.

4+ save bikes with 1 per 3 Scatter laser or Shuricannon could work. They would certainly still be viable and probably still the best Eldar troop choice. But If they make that change, I hope it comes with a 1-2 ppm decrease. The change from 3+sv to 4+sv is pretty dramatic.

For example:
WIndriders are now 15ppm with their current statline, but a 4+ armour
1 per 3 can swap their twin-linked shuricats for the following:
1 Scatter laser - 15pts
1 Shuricannon - 10pts

That would mean that 3 bikes with 1 Scatter would be 60pts. That's 1 pt less than the same configuration is now, but only has a 4+ sv. 55pts would get you 3 bikes with a Shuricannon (which is close to the current Vyper's cost with 2 Shuricannons)
I'd be ok with that, so long as the Windrider host allowed up to 5 units instead of 3. You'll need the extra bodies.

EDIT: I feel like we are getting side-tracked for they main reason I started this, which was to discuss how to make the Vyper play more like an Eldar version on an Attack bike.

-

 Galef wrote:
Scatter lasers and Assault cannons are not comparable, but let's assume for a moment that both cost 15ppm.

Scatter laser Pros:
-additional range

Assault cannon Pros:
-have better AP and Rending, therefore can threaten any unit no matter what

That is literally the only difference between the 2. Assault cannons are way better. The reason they blow in practice is the platforms they occupy. Scatter laser APPEAR way better than Assault cannons because you can get 10x more of them in a list on more mobile units.
If you could take Assault cannons in the same capacity, there would be no contest. Scatter Lasers "sand paper" units because they're everywhere. Assault cannons would "buzz saw" through anything they looked at if you could take 1 on every Marine biker.

I am trying to deal with that exact platform issue. Less Scatters mean they are way less effective. Less effectiveness means lower points cost.
We couldn't realistically talk about lowering the number of Scats because the kit physically came with so many, but now that a unit exists that is A) an Elite, thus never being ObSec or filling minimum slots and B) costs more to field, we can now discuss making the Troop Windriders only 1 per 3 again and the kit doesn't need to factor in anymore

-

The 12" range is huge. You should know that by now.

 Galef wrote:
4+ save bikes with 1 per 3 Scatter laser or Shuricannon could work. They would certainly still be viable and probably still the best Eldar troop choice. But If they make that change, I hope it come with a 1-2 ppm decrease. The change from 3+sv to 4+sv is pretty dramatic.

Not that dramatic on models with decent range and JSJ. If it were up to me I'd make them Skilled Riders while doing this as part of the make-all-Eldar-jetbikes-work-similarly initiative (Reavers are currently 5+/Skilled Rider, Skyweavers are 4+/Skilled Rider, Craftworld/Corsair bikes are 3+, Shining Spears are 3+/Skilled Rider; I'd make them all 4+/Skilled Rider (but leave Shining Spears as 3+ because of heavy Aspect armour)), but they're going to remain quite expensive models with one Wound either way. Their survival is already contingent on hiding somewhere the other guy can't get at them easily.

Martel732 wrote:

The 12" range is huge. You should know that by now.

Indeed it can be, But I have been play-testing mixed units for over a year now (1 Scatter laser and 2 Shuricannons) and about 80-90% of the time I can still be in 24" range and manage to still jump back out of retaliation. The 10-20% it have mattered and I lost the unit because I was too close, I was still glad to have some Bladestorm.
Getting AP2 on some wounds makes more units Jink, removes more wounds from MCs, and overall give a more general purpose weapon.

Assault cannons would be an amazing weapon if they were more accessible. Scatter lasers are awesome mostly because of their availability, which lends to them rolling more average success.

I do like the idea of all Aeldari bikes from every codex having a 4+ armour (3+ for Shining Spears and Autarchs due to their armour) and Skilled RIder. Skilled Rider would give them the 3+ if they really wanted to Jink for it, but at the cost of Snap-firing. It would play more like Eldar do in the fluff that use their speed as a defense, rather than straight armour.

-

"Assault cannon Pros:
-have better AP and Rending, therefore can threaten any unit no matter what"

This is actually a disadvantage, because it makes people think it can hurt things when it can't do it reliably enough. The assault cannon has so few shots that it might as well not have rending. The 24" range is murder because it puts you withing range of grav and other unpleasant weapons.

"Scatter lasers are awesome mostly because of their availability"

No, their stat line is straight up broken in 7th. If S6 couldn't scrub out so many vehicles, maybe not. But it's nuts in 7th ed. Straight up nuts.

The issue is you guys are going WAY too far just to kill the unit. Nobody is going to take them if you add that many nerfs, on top of nobody taking a S5 Scatterlaser ever. I say the 4+ and 15 points Scatterlaser is not as drastic and therefore worth playtesting first due to more familiarity and easier to tweak.

I only want one change. Keep the blasted 3+ armor.

 Galef wrote:
...Assault cannons would be an amazing weapon if they were more accessible.

Case in point: 30k Blood Angels' Dakkapredator army. 115pts/model for Fast Predators with four assault cannons per model (one twin-linked in the turret, two sponsons, one pintle-mounted) in squadrons of 1-3, in the Troops slot (with the Armoured Breakthrough Rite of War). And for 35pts/squadron you can designate a command tank that gives 4+ to ignore Shaken and Tank Hunters/Monster Hunters against targets within 24" (also known as 'the range of an assault cannon'), so you're looking at a 20% chance per shot of stripping a hull point from AV14 instead of 11% without it.

(Yes, I know 380pts is a lot for a squadron, but you get to drop an obscured Land Raider a turn with almost no chance of failure and murder Riptide Wings if you have a time-displacement adventure and end up playing a 30k list against Tau.)

...Aeldari...

(Grr. Vowels. Copyright. Grr. 'Eldar' is the species generally. Grr. Ynnead's already bringing the Rhana Dandra, he doesn't need to bring us more vowels too. Grr.) [/reactionarygriping] #reactionarygriping

(I'm trying out an update of my comedic HTML tags to the modern age.)

Assault cannons do nothing to Riptides.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The issue is you guys are going WAY too far just to kill the unit. Nobody is going to take them if you add that many nerfs, on top of nobody taking a S5 Scatterlaser ever. I say the 4+ and 15 points Scatterlaser is not as drastic and therefore worth playtesting first due to more familiarity and easier to tweak.

For the record I've played this unit. I'm not here to heap poo on the Eldar army or kill jetbikes, I'm here to try to fix them so people can feel safe not running screaming for the hills if someone suggests using them.

I'd like to see 4+ armour, Skilled Rider, and one gun per three. I wouldn't object too strenuously to S5 scatter lasers or 15pt scatter lasers, but trying to add both is probably going overboard.

Martel732 wrote:

The assault cannon has so few shots that it might as well not have rending. The 24" range is murder because it puts you withing range of grav and other unpleasant weapons.

"Scatter lasers are awesome mostly because of their availability"

No, their stat line is straight up broken in 7th. If S6 couldn't scrub out so many vehicles, maybe not. But it's nuts in 7th ed. Straight up nuts.

Hold on. I'm starting to get confused about what you and I are specifically discussing. You just said the Scatter laser stat line is broken in 7th right after saying the Assault cannon has too few shots for Rending to matter. Both weapon have the same Str6 and number of shots

I just want to make sure we are on the same issue. I am discussing the Scatter laser in isolation and from the perspective of someone who has played Eldar long before anyone considered the Scatter laser to be good.
Do I understand you correctly that your basis has everything to do with the range?

Scatter lasers are "broken" in this edition not because of what they can do, but because you can field enough for them to do it.
Ask yourself this: If Scats and Assualt cannons switched places, i.e 5 Terminators could take 1 Scatter laser for 20pts and 3 Windriders could each take an Assualt cannon for 10 pts, Which unit would get the most benefit out of that?
The bikes would. It's the platform that's the problem, not the weapon.

-

Martel732 wrote:
Assault cannons do nothing to Riptides.

Look, seriously, do you play 40k? Do you speak English? Because while one assault cannon may not do much to Riptides it can, and if you read my post you may notice I was suggesting pointing TWELVE assault cannons with Monster Hunter at a Riptide Wing. Which is GOING TO KILL SOME OF THEM.

S6 is all you need to threaten almost every cost effective vehicle in the game. Your opponent brought a land raider? You've already won.

S6 is a magical sweet spot in the meta currently. Wounds all T4 on 2's, scrubs out everything from land speeders up to Imperial Knights. All from a range where nothing can effective retaliate for the most part. The Imperium has to try to divert heavy weapons away from the WKs, and you have 10 times as many heavy weapons. Cheaper, too. And better.

The basis is a combination of range, mass S6 being WAY too good in 7th ed, Eldar platforms being amazing, Imperial platforms being gak, and rending not mattering until you get up to around 20 shots or so. You can take your AP4 and rending and choke on it. Assault cannons are ripoffs for 20 pts factoring in all of the above.

Martel732 wrote:
"Assault cannon Pros:
-have better AP and Rending, therefore can threaten any unit no matter what"

This is actually a disadvantage, because it makes people think it can hurt things when it can't do it reliably enough. The assault cannon has so few shots that it might as well not have rending. The 24" range is murder because it puts you withing range of grav and other unpleasant weapons.

"Scatter lasers are awesome mostly because of their availability"

No, their stat line is straight up broken in 7th. If S6 couldn't scrub out so many vehicles, maybe not. But it's nuts in 7th ed. Straight up nuts.

Yes, having a more powerful weapon is always a disadvantage. /sarcasm

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Assault cannons do nothing to Riptides.

Look, seriously, do you play 40k? Do you speak English? Because while one assault cannon may not do much to Riptides it can, and if you read my post you may notice I was suggesting pointing TWELVE assault cannons with Monster Hunter at a Riptide Wing. Which is GOING TO KILL SOME OF THEM.

Go do the math. I bet you it won't. They have more durability than a warhound titan for 220 pts. You are trying to force through a 2+/5+++ or a 3++/5+++. 5 wounds each. Good luck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Assault cannon Pros:
-have better AP and Rending, therefore can threaten any unit no matter what"

This is actually a disadvantage, because it makes people think it can hurt things when it can't do it reliably enough. The assault cannon has so few shots that it might as well not have rending. The 24" range is murder because it puts you withing range of grav and other unpleasant weapons.

"Scatter lasers are awesome mostly because of their availability"

No, their stat line is straight up broken in 7th. If S6 couldn't scrub out so many vehicles, maybe not. But it's nuts in 7th ed. Straight up nuts.

Yes, having a more powerful weapon is always a disadvantage. /sarcasm

I catch people misallocating their assault cannons all the time trying to get lucky. It's not more powerful if it encourages bad choices more than it helps.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Each monster hunting assault cannon generates approximately:

2.1 regular wounds
0.53 rends

So that's 25 regular wounds and 6 rends from your 12 assault cannons.

That's 2.78 + 1.33 cleared wounds vs riptide. Last time I checked, 4.11 is smaller than 5. But tell me again how great these assault cannons are. Admittedly, Riptide is one of the few things that the scatterlaser is actually bad against. It's just that the assault cannon, even with monster hunter, isn't any better.

12 Assault Cannons. Monster Hunter.

48 shots.
32 hits.
24 wounds, 8 of which rend.
Does 2.67 wounds from the regular wounds, no FNP. (1.78 with FNP.)
5.33 wounds from the rends, no FNP. (3.56 with FNP.)
2.67 if they have a 3+ Invuln, no FNP. (1.78 with FNP.)

So, in my experience, that'll handily kill a Riptide. Because they usually want to Nova Charge their gun. Even with FNP, that's over 5 wounds.

Edit: Oh, and that Warhound Titan?

12 Assault Cannon, Tank Hunter.
32 hits.
5.33 rends, which are the only thing that can do anything, then 4.45 more from Tank Hunter. 9.78 total.
7.78 after the Void Shields. Needs a 2 on the d3 to glance, pens don't matter.
5.19 HP dealt.

So, how is a Riptide more durable than a Warhound Scout Titan? I admit, its saves are better... But the WHST has much more HP than a Riptide has Wounds. And can regenerate with its Void Shields. And causes more damage.

They rarely nova charge the gun in my experience. Why would they?

Is it just me or is it crazy that it's possible that something might be able to survive 12 assault cannons that reroll wounds? And this unit of course is not available in 40K. Are the assault cannons not twinlinked?

The warhound titan stat is with melta/lascannons in mind. I've never calculated it with assault cannons before, because it's really a non issue in 40K.

Martel732 wrote:
They rarely nova charge the gun in my experience. Why would they?

Is it just me or is it crazy that it's possible that something might be able to survive 12 assault cannons that reroll wounds? And this unit of course is not available in 40K. Are the assault cannons not twinlinked?

Because they want more dakka.

And some of them are, some of them aren't. I did the math as if none of them are.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They rarely nova charge the gun in my experience. Why would they?

Is it just me or is it crazy that it's possible that something might be able to survive 12 assault cannons that reroll wounds? And this unit of course is not available in 40K. Are the assault cannons not twinlinked?

Because they want more dakka.

And some of them are, some of them aren't. I did the math as if none of them are.

It's still absurd that it's this close. The imperium can't get 12 assault cannons in a list anymore, much less in one squadron in 40K, so I really don't see how this helps. I guess as a thought exercise about how 12 assault cannons can be better than 12 scatterlasers in this specific case. But again, imperium can't bring 12 assault cannons in 40K.

Because the issue is availability, yes. That's the point-if Scatterlasers were 1 in 3, they wouldn't be nearly as bad.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Because the issue is availability, yes. That's the point-if Scatterlasers were 1 in 3, they wouldn't be nearly as bad.

Obviously. But they'd still be undercosted as a weapon. These are two different phenomenon. A weapon doesn't magically get better the more you take of them. It just allows abuse if they are miscosted. So at 1 per 3, scatterlasers would still be absurd for 10 pts, but just less abusable. Why not fix the root issue of undercostedness?

Does anyone care how many missile launchers a marine list can have? No, because the missile launcher is trash and likely overcosted. You are just multiplying failure at that point.

Which is why it's also reasonable as 10 points at S5 or 15 points at S6. Add that to 1 in 3, and Windriders sudden;y aren't so bad.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Which is why it's also reasonable as 10 points at S5 or 15 points at S6. Add that to 1 in 3, and Windriders sudden;y aren't so bad.

I'd obviously agree to 15 pts at S6, but it should really be 20. 12" range on an eldar platform is well worth AP4 and rending. The bottom line is that there are too many target that S6 can take out without rending to drop it to 15 pts. There's not enough downside to the scatterlaser in the current game. It IS an assault cannon most of the time.

You don't need 1 per 3 if you cost the gun correctly. Why is everyone stuck on 1 per 3? That's the whole point of costing. No matter how many you take, it's fair.

Martel732 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Assault cannons do nothing to Riptides.

Look, seriously, do you play 40k? Do you speak English? Because while one assault cannon may not do much to Riptides it can, and if you read my post you may notice I was suggesting pointing TWELVE assault cannons with Monster Hunter at a Riptide Wing. Which is GOING TO KILL SOME OF THEM.

Go do the math. I bet you it won't. They have more durability than a warhound titan for 220 pts. You are trying to force through a 2+/5+++ or a 3++/5+++. 5 wounds each. Good luck...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Each monster hunting assault cannon generates approximately:

2.1 regular wounds
0.53 rends

So that's 25 regular wounds and 6 rends from your 12 assault cannons.

That's 2.78 + 1.33 cleared wounds vs riptide. Last time I checked, 4.11 is smaller than 5. But tell me again how great these assault cannons are. Admittedly, Riptide is one of the few things that the scatterlaser is actually bad against. It's just that the assault cannon, even with monster hunter, isn't any better.

Binomial coefficient problem. Rechecked in detail and found a 30% chance of killing one with the 3+ shield up and a 60% chance of killing one with just the 5+ shield up (~4 wounds versus ~5.5 wounds). It's going to kill one of them if the dice spike very slightly.

So. In the meantime. Tell me again where you get the assault cannon doing 'nothing' from a 60% chance to one-round a Riptide if it chooses not to turn off its ability to do more than inconvenience your Predator squadron.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
...You don't need 1 per 3 if you cost the gun correctly. Why is everyone stuck on 1 per 3? That's the whole point of costing. No matter how many you take, it's fair.

BECAUSE IT ISN'T FAIR.

If points costs are/should be the only thing that matters for reasons of balance explain to me why I can't get a heavy weapon on every Space Marine. Explain why I can't play an army of all Purifiers in GK. Explain why I shouldn't be able to take a *bleep*ing Phantom in Troops. Is it not appropriately costed? Should I not be able to use it without regard to what else is in the army if it is?

Some of us don't regard Unbound as the norm and would prefer to play a game where infantry can do something instead of a game that's been reduced to superheavies and Riptides by people like you.

I didn't do it. GW did.

If the community likes 1 per 3 , great. But that doesn't magically make it a 10 pt gun.

You normalize it. Then whine about it.

See, I personally love Superheavies and Gargantuans, but even I acknowledge that the power curve is too high right now.

Martel732 wrote:
...a 10 pt gun...

THIS again? Would an Assault Cannon on a Custodes Land Raider with BS5 be worth the same amount as an Assault Cannon in a T2 abhuman-conscript weapons team with BS2?

What is your obsession with the price of the gun in a vacuum? Why is the price of a scatter laser on the weapon options list so much more important to you than the price of putting it on the table?

Because the price increase fixes more than jetbikes. Wave serpents, warwalkers etc have to pay as well. Because the scatterlaser is worth 20 pts in 7th ed, not 10.

All eldar are now bs 4. They are all fast or have battlefocus. They are all good to fantastic platforms. Maybe a scatterlaser is worth 10 on an imperial tank, but for eldar it should be 20.

Martel732 wrote:
I didn't do it. GW did...

This is Proposed Rules. 'But GW...' is NOT AN EXCUSE.

If you want to start a thread about how everything should be priced in a vacuum, the game should be designed around Unbound, and everybody should be allowed battlecannon-equipped Dreadknights feel free to go math out your 40k-VDR-edition project, but can you please stop barging into other peoples' threads on sensible topics to derail them into nonsensical complaints?

I proposed my one rule. It's the best fix given the current rule set. Being able to kill superheavies from 36 " should not be so cheap.

I never claimed any of that. I never mentioned unbound. I'm talking about a singular gun in a singular army needs a points hike. That's it.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The issue is you guys are going WAY too far just to kill the unit. Nobody is going to take them if you add that many nerfs, on top of nobody taking a S5 Scatterlaser ever. I say the 4+ and 15 points Scatterlaser is not as drastic and therefore worth playtesting first due to more familiarity and easier to tweak.

For the record I've played this unit. I'm not here to heap poo on the Eldar army or kill jetbikes, I'm here to try to fix them so people can feel safe not running screaming for the hills if someone suggests using them.

I'd like to see 4+ armour, Skilled Rider, and one gun per three. I wouldn't object too strenuously to S5 scatter lasers or 15pt scatter lasers, but trying to add both is probably going overboard.

S5 Scatterlasers means you won't see Scatterlasers taken on anything.

Martel732 wrote:
Because the price increase fixes more than jetbikes. Wave serpents, warwalkers etc have to pay as well. Because the scatterlaser is worth 20 pts in 7th ed, not 10.

A SCATTER LASER ON A JETBIKE IS NOT TEN POINTS. IT IS TWENTY-SEVEN POINTS.

A SCATTER LASER ON A WAVE SERPENT IS NOT TEN POINTS. IT IS ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTEEN POINTS.

Your incessant conviction that a Scatter Laser is 'worth' 20pts instead of 10pts is gibberish. You presume that a Scatter Laser is, and ought to be, the same cost on every plaftorm, then you presume that you happen to know that the price is 10pts because that's what the option in the Windrider unit entry says it is.

A Scatter Laser on a Windrider Jetbike is worth 10pts more than a twin-linked shuriken catapult on a Windrider Jetbike. A twin-linked Scatter Laser on a Wave Serpent is worth 5pts more than a twin-linked shuirken cannon on a Wave Serpent. A Scatter Laser in a vacuum not attached to a model is worth nothing, because it DOES NOT EXIST.

Can we argue about the game instead of your metaphysical thought experiment?

Fine by me. But we are supposed to make due with heavy bolters?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The issue is you guys are going WAY too far just to kill the unit. Nobody is going to take them if you add that many nerfs, on top of nobody taking a S5 Scatterlaser ever. I say the 4+ and 15 points Scatterlaser is not as drastic and therefore worth playtesting first due to more familiarity and easier to tweak.

For the record I've played this unit. I'm not here to heap poo on the Eldar army or kill jetbikes, I'm here to try to fix them so people can feel safe not running screaming for the hills if someone suggests using them.

I'd like to see 4+ armour, Skilled Rider, and one gun per three. I wouldn't object too strenuously to S5 scatter lasers or 15pt scatter lasers, but trying to add both is probably going overboard.

S5 Scatterlasers means you won't see Scatterlasers taken on anything.

I'd take them on a lot of things at S5. They wouldn't be the default answer to everything the way they are today, that doesn't mean they'd be bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Fine by me. But we are supposed to make due with heavy bolters?

You're supposed to get your head out of your behind on the subject of AP4, recognize that the heavy bolter is a backup weapon on vehicles, and start asking yourself whether the fact that your T4/3+ armour models are paying less for their heavy bolters than T3/5+ armour Guardians are paying for scatter lasers might means that the developers know they're worse than scatter lasers and have priced them as such.

"A SCATTER LASER ON A JETBIKE IS NOT TEN POINTS. IT IS TWENTY-SEVEN POINTS.

A SCATTER LASER ON A WAVE SERPENT IS NOT TEN POINTS. IT IS ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTEEN POINTS. "

I think a scatterlaser on a jet bike should cost 37 pointss.

I think it should be 125 on a wave serpent.

Units have a base cost and then a surcharge to add on options. In most/all cases, I think the surcharge for scatterlasers should be 20 pts. I don't see why that's so hard to understand. Almost all Eldar units are equally proficient at using them. I suppose if the base gun is a shuriken cannon, the cost should be modified. So let me refine this. Any unit upgrading from nothing or a shuriken catapult should be paying 20 for said upgrade. I don't know what warwalkers come with standard, so that might change things there.

"You're supposed to get your head out of your behind on the subject of AP4, recognize that the heavy bolter is a backup weapon on vehicles, and start asking yourself whether the fact that your T4/3+ armour models are paying less for their heavy bolters than T3/5+ armour Guardians are paying for scatter lasers might means that the developers know they're worse than scatter lasers and have priced them as such."

The gulf between the two weapons is much larger than 5 pts. That's the problem. A scatterlaser is usually twice as good as a heavy bolter. As it stands heavy bolters cost too much in the meta and scatterlasers are, again, too cheap. AP 4 is very poor due to the commonality of 5+ cover. If the heavy bolter could ignore cover consistently, AP 4 looks a lot better. But downgrading from someone from 4+ to 5+ sucks.

Martel732 wrote:
"A SCATTER LASER ON A JETBIKE IS NOT TEN POINTS. IT IS TWENTY-SEVEN POINTS.

A SCATTER LASER ON A WAVE SERPENT IS NOT TEN POINTS. IT IS ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTEEN POINTS. "

I think a scatterlaser on a jet bike should cost 37 pointss.

I think it should be 125 on a wave serpent.

Units have a base cost and then a surcharge to add on options. In most/all cases, I think the surcharge for scatterlasers should be 20 pts. I don't see why that's so hard to understand. Almost all Eldar units are equally proficient at using them. I suppose if the base gun is a shuriken cannon, the cost should be modified.

If the surcharge for Scatter Lasers should be 20pts in all cases why are you suggesting it should be 15pts on the Wave Serpent?

Why does the weapon need to have the exact same price on the upgrade lists regardless of what you're upgrading from? Why should it cost the same to replace a twin-linked shuriken catapult with a single scatter laser as it does to replace a twin-linked shuriken cannon with a twin-linked scatter laser?

Can you get this idea that a single gun in a vacuum has an absolute cost out of your head for a second and explain to me why you'd rather a Windrider squad with a scatter laser cost 37pts for one model with one scatter laser rather than 61pts for three model with one scatter laser? If the scatter laser is too cheap WHY ARE YOU THE ONE ARGUING TO KEEP IT THAT WAY?

"You're supposed to get your head out of your behind on the subject of AP4, recognize that the heavy bolter is a backup weapon on vehicles, and start asking yourself whether the fact that your T4/3+ armour models are paying less for their heavy bolters than T3/5+ armour Guardians are paying for scatter lasers might means that the developers know they're worse than scatter lasers and have priced them as such."

The gulf between the two weapons is much larger than 5 pts. That's the problem. A scatterlaser is usually twice as good as a heavy bolter. As it stands heavy bolters cost too much in the meta and scatterlasers are, again, too cheap. AP 4 is complete due to the commonality of 5+ cover. If the heavy bolter could ignore cover consistently, AP 4 looks a lot better. But downgrading from someone from 4+ to 5+ sucks.

AGAIN. DROP the idea of a gun in a vacuum. I'm going to take this argument to its logical conclusion for a moment. Should a gun on a BS4 single-Wound infantry model with Toughness 1 and no saves cost the same as the same gun on an AV15 60-HP superheavy with a rerollable 2+ Invulnerable save, so long as both have BS4?

More durable models should be paying more for their upgrade weapons because a gun in a T4/3+ armour unit is harder to get rid of and is thus going to spend more of the game shooting and take up more enemy resources.

So if you can parse that idea can you explain to me why you're taking a cost of 80pts for five T4/3+ models with one heavy bolter and four bolters and a cost of 105pts for ten T3/5+ models with one scatter laser and nine shuriken catapults, and declaring that every other factor involved in comparing the two units needs to be thrown out in favour of looking at the cost of replacing a boltgun with a heavy bolter and the cost of replacing a shuriken catapult with a scatter laser in a vacuum?

" If the scatter laser is too cheap WHY ARE YOU THE ONE ARGUING TO KEEP IT THAT WAY? "

Up above I said 1 per 3 is fine if the community insists. That one bike per 3 should still be a 37 pt model, however. I'm more concerned about upgrade cost over the shuriken catapult than the limitation per squad. If a squad of 3 scatterbikes were 111 pts, that's sufficiently fragile/pt to justify their firepower.

" Should a gun on a BS4 single-Wound infantry model with Toughness 1 and no saves cost the same as the same gun on an AV15 60-HP superheavy with a rerollable 2+ Invulnerable save, so long as both have BS4? "

No.

"So if you can parse that idea can you explain to me why you're taking a cost of 80pts for five T4/3+ models with one heavy bolter and four bolters and a cost of 105pts for ten T3/5+ models with one scatter laser and nine shuriken catapults, and declaring that every other factor involved in comparing the two units needs to be thrown out in favour of looking at the cost of replacing a boltgun with a heavy bolter and the cost of replacing a shuriken catapult with a scatter laser in a vacuum? "

I'm not. I just would say that those 10 models with scatterlaser should cost more than 105 pts.

Martel732 wrote:
...I don't see why that's so hard to understand...

Your proposal is difficult to understand because there's no logic, pattern, or sense behind it. You're arguing that all units that have the word 'scatter laser' in their unit upgrade list need to have 10pts added to that option, regardless of whether it's twin-linked, what they're upgrading from, whether the unit is overpowered (scatterbikes), merely good (Wave Serpents), mediocre (Guardian Defenders), or downright terrible (Vypers). You're arguing that this 10pt price hike needs to happen to things that would be utterly unaffected by the existence or nonexistence of their scatter laser or option thereof in the first place (Vampires, Wraithknights, Scorpions).

And your only justification is "the scatter laser is a 20pt gun".

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
...I don't see why that's so hard to understand...

Your proposal is difficult to understand because there's no logic, pattern, or sense behind it. You're arguing that all units that have the word 'scatter laser' in their unit upgrade list need to have 10pts added to that option, regardless of whether it's twin-linked, what they're upgrading from, whether the unit is overpowered (scatterbikes), merely good (Wave Serpents), mediocre (Guardian Defenders), or downright terrible (Vypers). You're arguing that this 10pt price hike needs to happen to things that would be utterly unaffected by the existence or nonexistence of their scatter laser or option thereof in the first place (Vampires, Wraithknights, Scorpions).

And your only justification is "the scatter laser is a 20pt gun".

I've changed my mind on this because I forgot that not every Eldar unit is upgrading from nothing or a shuriken catapult. Vypers are not terrible, either. Only in the context of C:Eldar, and even then, fast shooting is not terrible. The upgrade from no weapon or shuriken catatpult should be 20 pts. That's what I'm trying to say.

Martel732 wrote:
" Should a gun on a BS4 single-Wound infantry model with Toughness 1 and no saves cost the same as the same gun on an AV15 60-HP superheavy with a rerollable 2+ Invulnerable save, so long as both have BS4? "

No.

SO STOP TELLING ME THAT ALL UNITS WITH SCATTER LASERS NEED THE SAME PRICE CHANGE BECAUSE 'THE SCATTER LASER IS A 20PT GUN'.

"So if you can parse that idea can you explain to me why you're taking a cost of 80pts for five T4/3+ models with one heavy bolter and four bolters and a cost of 105pts for ten T3/5+ models with one scatter laser and nine shuriken catapults, and declaring that every other factor involved in comparing the two units needs to be thrown out in favour of looking at the cost of replacing a boltgun with a heavy bolter and the cost of replacing a shuriken catapult with a scatter laser in a vacuum? "

I'm not. I just would say that those 10 models with scatterlaser should cost more than 105 pts.

...And does your argument start and stop with "the scatter laser is worth more than 5pts more than the heavy bolter", or is there more to it?

Maybe it's better to say that the scattlerlaser is undercosted by various amounts across the board, (10pts for windriders), and the heavy bolter is overcosted by various amounts across the board. The heavy bolter is really bad at its alleged job.

Even GW doesn't go by the idea of weapons costing different amounts for platform. I think assault cannons are almost always +20 pts. That's probably where I got that in my head for scatterlasers. Plasma guns cost the same for guardsmen as marines and obviously shouldn't.

My basis for the whole thing is the functional gap between S5 and S6 and the relative uselessness of AP4/5 in the game as a whole.

Martel732 wrote:
...Vypers are not terrible, either. Only in the context of C:Eldar, and even then, fast shooting is not terrible...

...Go home and play a few games with your Land Speeders. Then come back and tell me you'd still use them if you couldn't have a multi-melta or heavy flamer, and they were actually Open-Topped so every gun in the game gets a shot at one-shotting them.

Vypers are not bad because of the comparison to other units in the Eldar Codex, they're bad because they're a mobile platform with guns that fundamentally don't care about being on a mobile platform. Given the option to take your 36" range anti-tank gun that doesn't care about having side arc on pretty much anything by virtue of the Lance rule on a platform that can move quickly and can Jink, or a platform that doesn't move quickly, has a built-in Invulnerable save, and doesn't have a chance of crashing if it makes use of available cover, which are you going to pick?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
...Vypers are not terrible, either. Only in the context of C:Eldar, and even then, fast shooting is not terrible...

...Go home and play a few games with your Land Speeders. Then come back and tell me you'd still use them if you couldn't have a multi-melta or heavy flamer, and they were actually Open-Topped so every gun in the game gets a shot at one-shotting them.

Vypers are not bad because of the comparison to other units in the Eldar Codex, they're bad because they're a mobile platform with guns that fundamentally don't care about being on a mobile platform. Given the option to take your 36" range anti-tank gun that doesn't care about having side arc on pretty much anything by virtue of the Lance rule on a platform that can move quickly and can Jink, or a platform that doesn't move quickly, has a built-in Invulnerable save, and doesn't have a chance of crashing if it makes use of available cover, which are you going to pick?

I don't use multi meltas or heavy flamers on my speeders usually. I don't really care about open topped, either. They're far more likely to get hull pointed out at AV 10. The chances of being exploded only surpass hull pointing in the case of AP 1. This is one of the phenomena in the game that make scatterlasers and S6/7 spam so incredibly good. Lascannons are reduced to hull point stripping weapons, so you might as well not use them. There's no reason to bring dedicated anti-tank. You don't need it. If I could take vypers in my BA lists, they would probably make it in over land speeders because Eldar weapons are so much better.

And yeah, I think vypers with scatterlasers should cost some amount more than they currently do. Because scatterlasers are that good. 36" range will protect you from a lot of counterfire. (Like assault cannons, ironically)

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe it's better to say that the scattlerlaser is undercosted by various amounts across the board, (10pts for windriders), and the heavy bolter is overcosted by various amounts across the board. The heavy bolter is really bad at its alleged job.

Even GW doesn't go by the idea of weapons costing different amounts for platform. I think assault cannons are almost always +20 pts. That's probably where I got that in my head for scatterlasers. Plasma guns cost the same for guardsmen as marines and obviously shouldn't.

The problem is that the scatter laser isn't undercosted across the board, and the heavy bolter/assault cannon isn't overcosted across the board.

GW may not buy the idea of weapons costing different amounts per platform, but that doesn't mean weapons should cost the same as upgrades on different platforms. Not to mention that the cost of upgrading to the weapon stuck to the price of the unit quite frequently means that a weapon is for all practical purposes, more/less expensive on different platforms; a single Guardsman pays 15pts (same as a Space Marine) to swap his lasgun for a plasma gun, but ten Guardsmen with a plasma gun are still 20pts cheaper than five Space Marines with a plasma gun.

The relationship between the cost of the unit and the cost of the weapon is such that looking at the weapon upgrade cost in a vacuum is not helpful information. Look at the cost of putting the gun on the table and the advantages, disadvantages, rules, components, extra stuff, etc. that comes with it.

All Eldar gun platforms are fast or have battle focus. Now they are all BS 4. Many of them can jink. On these platforms, the scatterlaser is undercosted, since they can maneuver the weapon into the arc they need vs vehicles very easily.

Eldar have many, many advantages and practically no disadvantages. Almost every frequently used Eldar unit is undercosted.

Given its mathematical niche in 7th, I would say that the scatterlaser IS undercosted across the board, but not by the same amount in every case as you have made me realize.

Conversely, the heavy bolter/assault cannon is almost certainly overcosted in every case due to where you find them.

I would suggest you find a unit with scatterlaser whose current price is appropriate and the same for heavy bolter/assault cannon.

Martel732 wrote:
...I don't use multi meltas or heavy flamers on my speeders usually...

...You, the king of "HB/AC suck!", use them on your Land Speeders? Or are you spending 150pts to get two Typhoon launchers instead of 130pts to get four Missile Launchers on Devastators? (Heavy flamers and multi-meltas are the point of Land Speeders, they're the weapons that actually benefit significantly from having a fast/Deep Strike-capable platform to carry them closer to the enemy).

...There's no reason to bring dedicated anti-tank. You don't need it...

So...let's take a count...you see, in your meta, no Stormsurges, no Wraithknights, no Land Raiders, no Necron players, no Leman Russes, no Imperial Knights, no Baneblade-chassis vehicles, and no Great Unclean Ones (all things the Bright Lance is dramatically better at dealing with than the scatter laser)?

I don't really use land speeders except to finish out an angel's blade and it just gets a typhoon launcher/heavy bolter and stays as far away from everything as possible. I don't think MM/HF on speeders is a particularly good idea given their fragility. If I have the points, I buy some other auxiliary for Angle's Blade.

Well for Eldar, they're going shoot most of those things with D weapons. Marines are going to shoot them with grav. Everything lighter gets glanced out by the almighty S6/7 spam that Eldar does much better.

I would never use a bright lance just as I would never use a lascannon for the most part.

Are you counting a D weapon as anti-tank? I don't.

Also, a scatterlaser clears more wounds vs Stormsurge than a bright lance. That's one of my problems with it.

Marines... Shooting a GUO... With Grav?

Two things: One, Sterngaurd deal with GUOs, since they have Poison 2+.

Two, it takes 24 Grav Cannons to kill a GUO in a ruins. 24 Grav Cannons. That's 840 points right there, plus another 420 for the Marines holding them, assuming no ablative Marines.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Marines... Shooting a GUO... With Grav?

Two things: One, Sterngaurd deal with GUOs, since they have Poison 2+.

Two, it takes 24 Grav Cannons to kill a GUO in a ruins. 24 Grav Cannons. That's 840 points right there, plus another 420 for the Marines holding them, assuming no ablative Marines.

I meant MOST. I'm certainly not trying to take on any of it with missile launchers or lascannons. It's gonna be melta or grav or ignore them.

I actually haven't used sternguard in a long, long time. I kinda miss those guys.

Martel732 wrote:
All Eldar gun platforms are fast or have battle focus. Now they are all BS 4. Many of them can jink. On these platforms, the scatterlaser is undercosted, since they can maneuver the weapon into the arc they need vs vehicles very easily.

You know how you don't like the assault cannon because rolling 6s for rend isn't reliable enough?

That's what it takes to do anything to AV12 with a scatter laser.

S6 is terrible at killing AV12 vehicles. It's useful against AV10/11, which, it turns out, most significant vehicles have to the rear, not the side. Generally if you've gotten S6 weapons into the AV10/11 arc of a vehicle it's probably either a transport or you've had to sacrifice your range advantage to do it.

...Eldar have many, many advantages and practically no disadvantages....

Pfft. You try playing this book and then tell me that again. No fire points, 115pt minimum cost for a transport, almost entirely T3, horrendously expensive single-Wound models, and we have to deal with people like you telling us the entire Codex is broken and needs massive nerfs across the board/refusing to play against it because you've gotten trounced one two many times by cheesed***s using the five or six units that are actually overpowered.

...Almost every frequently used Eldar unit is undercosted...

So start nerfing the 15-20% of the book that is frequently used instead of the 80-85% that isn't.

Given its mathematical niche in 7th, I would say that the scatterlaser IS undercosted across the board, but not by the same amount in every case as you have made me realize.

The Scatter Laser is undercosted on Windriders, probably undercosted on War Walkers, probably not undercosted on Wave Serpents, not undercosted on Vypers, and definitely not undercosted on the Wraithknight. Restrict Windriders to one gun per three and make the War Walker 75pts base, and it's probably no longer undercosted anywhere.

Conversely, the heavy bolter/assault cannon is almost certainly overcosted in every case due to where you find them.

I would suggest you find a unit with scatterlaser whose current price is appropriate and the same for heavy bolter/assault cannon.

Wraithlord, two scatter lasers. 150pts, T8/3+ armour MC, three Wounds. Slow, moderate damage output with good range, mediocre melee hitting power in a pinch, vulnerable to fairly common heavy weapons.

I will concede that many of the appropriately-priced models with assault cannons I can think of are in 30k (the 40k Baal Predator should be ashamed of itself, its 30k counterpart has three extra assault cannons for the same price, statline, and loadout; and BA Devastator squads are a nightmare at 285pts for ten Space Marines with assault cannons), but here's one with both: the Stormtalon. 110pts, 11-11-11 Hover-capable Flyer, 2 hull points, BS4 with Strafing Run. Twin-linked heavy bolter, twin-linked assault cannon, and Vectored Afterburners for a 3+ Jink while in hover mode. Fast, reasonably durable, easily able to get into back arc with a respectable amount of S5/S6, twin-linked and strafing run for rerollable 2+ to hit ground targets.

Yeah, I don't get Stormtalons. But I'll say that's probably the best assault cannon platform in 40K. And it starts in reserve. Lovely.

Everything about the WK is likely undercosted. It's a 400 pt model. Easy. Or did you mean Wraithlord? The Wraithlord is the old guard of MCs, and is mostly fair. That's also why I haven't seen one in like four years now.

"S6 is terrible at killing AV12 vehicles. "

It's quite good, because you can mass so many shots so cheaply. That's my whole problem with the scatterlaser. It becomes reliable when you have 80 shots. How do you propose a marine list get 80 rending shots? Scatterlasers are frighteningly cost effective vs IKs. Tau and Eldar are leveraging the statistics of huge numbers of shots while the rest of us are praying for "6"s from a handful of shots. That's the game currently.

Martel732 wrote:
...Well for Eldar, they're going shoot most of those things with D weapons...

All right, let me clarify. It may seem hard for you to believe this but occasionally you come across an Eldar player, like me, who uses the 80% of the book that doesn't make it into tournament lists. It would be physically possible for me to load up with D-weapons. I tend not to, because I'm interested in playing 40k, not in beating up small children to stoke my own misshapen ego.

Also, a scatterlaser clears more wounds vs Stormsurge than a bright lance. That's one of my problems with it.

...Wasn't aware they'd given it the same Toughness as and worse armour than a Riptide. Counterintuitive, that is. On the bright side it will be more easily demolished when I finish building my Rapier crews and the phosphex comes a-knocking.

Just FYI, I am all for Scatter lasers (on jetbikes) being 15ppm. They should be more than a Shuricannon, but not twice as much.

On other platforms they are currently costed appropriately because in almost every case they replace an existing Shuricannon, so the cost of that Shuricannon has already been built in. Also, the only other platform in which Scatter lasers can be effectively spammed are War Walkers, which end up paying a good deal more for as many Scats as the bikes do.
1 WW with 2 Scats is 70pts. 2 Scatterbikes are only 54. Making them 15ppm on the bike only would make those same two bikes cost 64pts, which is much closer to the WW.

So I say again, 15pts Scatter lasers ON BIKES is a great idea. 20pts is too far.

And Assault cannons shouldn't be 20pts either. They should be 15pts at most.

-

The nice thing about D weapons is that you usually only need a few. Not always true, as I've seen a Riptide tank TWO wraith cannon WKs for four turns. 3++ on demand can be very frustrating even for Eldar.

"So I say again, 15pts Scatter lasers ON BIKES is a great idea. 20pts is too far.

And Assault cannons shouldn't be 20pts either. They should be 15pts at most. "

That's fair enough. I never thought about making assault cannon cheaper. 96 for a scatpack of 3? Maybe that's enough points lost for three wounds. It still doesn't quite work out in a way, because imperial platforms are all such gak, but it's closer.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, I don't get Stormtalons. But I'll say that's probably the best assault cannon platform in 40K. And it starts in reserve. Lovely.

Everything about the WK is likely undercosted. It's a 400 pt model. Easy. Or did you mean Wraithlord? The Wraithlord is the old guard of MCs, and is mostly fair. That's also why I haven't seen one in like four years now.

"S6 is terrible at killing AV12 vehicles. "

It's quite good, because you can mass so many shots so cheaply. That's my whole problem with the scatterlaser. It becomes reliable when you have 80 shots. How do you propose a marine list get 80 rending shots? Scatterlasers are frighteningly cost effective vs IKs. Tau and Eldar are leveraging the statistics of huge numbers of shots while the rest of us are praying for "6"s from a handful of shots. That's the game currently.

Nope. The game currently is apparently you deciding that you need to be able to play the game like Tau/Eldar instead of playing the game like Space Marines. Throw a melta-pod at an Imperial Knight or actually make use of the rest of your army's weapons ("I don't use lascannons"? Seriously?) and I guarantee you will be able to kill it more effectively.

Praying for 6s from handfuls of shots? You can get S9-10. Eldar can't. You can deliver melta effectively. Eldar can't. You can get 2+ armour, indirect-fire weapons, *bleep*ing Fire Raptors...

Eldar may be a powerful Codex and they may be at the top of the tournament meta but that doesn't mean that the mechanisms by which they interact with the game are the only good way to win and every army should be trying to emulate them. If you play your Codex like itself instead of complaining that you can't play it like the Eldar Codex you might find it's better at the game when playing its own game instead of trying to play someone else's.

Yeah that's one of points is that a lot of stuff isn't a bad when you realize than Imperial stuff can really be overcosted. That's why Gladius doesn't bother be....anymore at least.

Martel732 wrote:
The nice thing about D weapons is that you usually only need a few. Not always true, as I've seen a Riptide tank TWO wraith cannon WKs for four turns. 3++ on demand can be very frustrating even for Eldar...

Yeah. And you've missed the part where I'm trying to play the game instead of pick out the models that let me step all over people.

(I have a Warp Hunter, because it's an awesome model and I've got an eternal fondness for the self-propelled heavy artillery concept (I call it the 'elf-StuG'). If I play it I'm using HoR-style non-Destroyer rules (S6/Armourbane/Fleshbane), because occasionally I might want to play against the same person more than once.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
Yeah that's one of points is that a lot of stuff isn't a bad when you realize than Imperial stuff can really be overcosted. That's why Gladius doesn't bother be....anymore at least.

The problem seems to arise when people take a look at the Eldar and say "They do this thing, why can't we do this thing?" instead of taking a look at the Imperium and saying "Hey, we can do this cool thing the Eldar can't do". Massed melta, massed plasma, indirect-fire, high-power blasts, things with higher than Strength 8, things with a range longer than 36"...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
...because imperial platforms are all such gak...

...You have transports that are cheaper than 100pts, AV higher than 12, and *bleep*ing T5 bikes. Stop whining.

Yes i avoid lascannons as high str low rof weapons generally suck in 7th ed. The issue with melta is how much to bring. It's kuch easier to bring mass s6/7 and hp everything out.

T5 bikes that aren't gak compared to scatbikes. The imperium has a lot of bad units for sure. AV largely doesn't matter because d weapons. What the imperium really has is death stars. But ba don't have any so im boned.

Martel732 wrote:
Yes i avoid lascannons as high str low rof weapons generally suck in 7th ed. The issue with melta is how much to bring. It's kuch easier to bring mass s6/7 and hp everything out.

Great. Kill my 5 Ghost Arks with them.

Martel732 wrote:
Yes i avoid lascannons as high str low rof weapons generally suck in 7th ed. The issue with melta is how much to bring. It's kuch easier to bring mass s6/7 and hp everything out.

It turns out that if you stop looking at the Eldar and grumbling you may find that if you use your higher-powered weapons you have an easier time hull-pointing out vehicles with fewer guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yes i avoid lascannons as high str low rof weapons generally suck in 7th ed. The issue with melta is how much to bring. It's kuch easier to bring mass s6/7 and hp everything out.

Great. Kill my 5 Ghost Arks with them.

This is why I need Bright Lances. And why you need lascannons.

I usually deal with ghost arks by punching them because shooting them is too difficult with ba for the most part. The ghost ark is one of the very few vehicles in 7 th that might be undercosted.

If you do the math, lascannons krak missiles and bright lances are all miserable weapons. They can't double out t5 even which is big trouble vs twc and wraiths.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yes i avoid lascannons as high str low rof weapons generally suck in 7th ed. The issue with melta is how much to bring. It's kuch easier to bring mass s6/7 and hp everything out.

It turns out that if you stop looking at the Eldar and grumbling you may find that if you use your higher-powered weapons you have an easier time hull-pointing out vehicles with fewer guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yes i avoid lascannons as high str low rof weapons generally suck in 7th ed. The issue with melta is how much to bring. It's kuch easier to bring mass s6/7 and hp everything out.

Great. Kill my 5 Ghost Arks with them.

This is why I need Bright Lances. And why you need lascannons.

If you use Ghost Arks, you should know that you can usually elect not to Jink because those weapons simply aren't that risky.

Scatterlasers kill everything from grots to iks. There is a VERY narrow range of units that have to be covered by d weapons. Bright lances shouldn't even be a consideration for eldar.

BA have no d weapons which makes army building much harder. There is almost no chance that a ba list can engage 5 arks at range.

Martel732 wrote:
Scatterlasers kill everything from grots to iks. There is a VERY narrow range of units that have to be covered by d weapons. Bright lances shouldn't even be a consideration for eldar...

And yet they are.

Why? When you have D weapons at your disposal?

Martel732 wrote:
Why? When you have D weapons at your disposal?

Because I'm trying to play the game, not use the godmode cheat to just up and win everything.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why? When you have D weapons at your disposal?

Because I'm trying to play the game, not use the godmode cheat to just up and win everything.

But Martel's point, I think, is that not everyone will have that restraint.
While you could use Bright lances and I could use Shuricannon bikes, we're only 2 out of hundreds of Eldar players
It only takes a few players to take full advantage of what is perfectly legal to play and everyone who plays that army is now TFG.
An Eldar player can choice to tone down their choices, but those facing Eldar cannot tone down every Eldar list they face outside of friendly games.

People want to win by nature. At the very least, we want the game to be interesting and participate in it and not get tabled. The best way to do that is to take competitive choices.
Eldar have the tools for this.
It would be nice if GW limted certain choices so that Johnny Get Started doesn't steam roll his buddies just because he picked the "right" army.
It is possible to have balance and cool units.

Back on Topic, Here is my final proposed WIndrider unit:

Stat line as now, but 4+ armour and Skilled rider 17ppm
Any model may exchange its Shuricats for Shuricannon -10ppm or Scatter laser 15ppm
May add 1 Warlock Skyrunner*
May add 1 Vyper

Vypers are now T5 w/ 2 wounds, 4+ armour, Skilled Rider. Weapon options are the same as current. Obviously no vehicle upgrades


*and all Warlock are LD9. Seriously why are they LD8? All Warlocks were Aspect Warriors before walking the path of the Seer and all Aspect Warriors are LD9. Not just the Exarch, ALL Aspects!

 Galef wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why? When you have D weapons at your disposal?

Because I'm trying to play the game, not use the godmode cheat to just up and win everything.

But Martel's point, I think, is that not everyone will have that restraint.
While you could use Bright lances and I could use Shuricannon bikes, we're only 2 out of hundreds of Eldar players
It only takes a few players to take full advantage of what is perfectly legal to play and everyone who plays that army is now TFG.
An Eldar player can choice to tone down their choices, but those facing Eldar cannot tone down every Eldar list they face outside of friendly games.

People want to win by nature. At the very least, we want the game to be interesting and participate in it and not get tabled. The best way to do that is to take competitive choices.
Eldar have the tools for this.
It would be nice if GW limted certain choices so that Johnny Get Started doesn't steam roll his buddies just because he picked the "right" army.
It is possible to have balance and cool units.

Back on Topic, Here is my final proposed WIndrider unit:

Stat line as now, but 4+ armour and Skilled rider 17ppm
Any model may exchange its Shuricats for Shuricannon -10ppm or Scatter laser 15ppm
May add 1 Warlock Skyrunner*
May add 1 Vyper

Vypers are now T5 w/ 2 wounds, 4+ armour, Skilled Rider. Weapon options are the same as current. Obviously no vehicle upgrades


*and all Warlock are LD9. Seriously why are they LD8? All Warlocks were Aspect Warriors before walking the path of the Seer and all Aspect Warriors are LD9. Not just the Exarch, ALL Aspects!

That's in line for what I had in mind. You might be able to get away with 3+ on the Vyper for the price.

Maybe, but I think it's easier if the whole unit has the same save. Mixing T is doesn't required separate rolls and I think making the Vyper T5 helps it more as its Fast Attack version

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why? When you have D weapons at your disposal?

Because I'm trying to play the game, not use the godmode cheat to just up and win everything.

D weapons are part of the game now. They are not cheating.

 Galef wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why? When you have D weapons at your disposal?

Because I'm trying to play the game, not use the godmode cheat to just up and win everything.

But Martel's point, I think, is that not everyone will have that restraint.
While you could use Bright lances and I could use Shuricannon bikes, we're only 2 out of hundreds of Eldar players
It only takes a few players to take full advantage of what is perfectly legal to play and everyone who plays that army is now TFG.
An Eldar player can choice to tone down their choices, but those facing Eldar cannot tone down every Eldar list they face outside of friendly games.

People want to win by nature. At the very least, we want the game to be interesting and participate in it and not get tabled. The best way to do that is to take competitive choices.
Eldar have the tools for this.
It would be nice if GW limted certain choices so that Johnny Get Started doesn't steam roll his buddies just because he picked the "right" army.
It is possible to have balance and cool units.

Martel's point isn't that not all players have the same restraint, his point is that no players have any restraint. There's a subtle distinction between the two points; if you take my position you accept that things like massed Destroyer weapons are mistakes made by the developers that aren't going to happen in most games and therefore should not be used as the basis for designing other units, whereas if you take Martel's position Destroyers weapons exist in the game, therefore are going to be used by all players in all games, therefore units must be designed assuming they're going to be fighting the most overpowered things every single game.

Contrary to popular belief winning is not fun and losing is not unfun. Close games are fun, whether you won or lost, and effortless steamrolls are unfun, whether you won or lost. I'd rather attempt to design around a set of sense of restraint designed to produce close games rather than constantly escalating in response to the latest screwup made by the developers.

Back on Topic, Here is my final proposed WIndrider unit:

Stat line as now, but 4+ armour and Skilled rider 17ppm
Any model may exchange its Shuricats for Shuricannon -10ppm or Scatter laser 15ppm
May add 1 Warlock Skyrunner*
May add 1 Vyper

Vypers are now T5 w/ 2 wounds, 4+ armour, Skilled Rider. Weapon options are the same as current. Obviously no vehicle upgrades


*and all Warlock are LD9. Seriously why are they LD8? All Warlocks were Aspect Warriors before walking the path of the Seer and all Aspect Warriors are LD9. Not just the Exarch, ALL Aspects!

I'd much rather see one gun per three than a gun upgrade available for everyone, but we're flogging a dead jetbike on that one at this point. On the other changes:

I'm confused as to why the Vyper is necessary in this unit. The Attack Bike carries different weapons from the rest of the unit, what is your Vyper here to do? Be slightly larger and have a different Toughness value it can't really use?

I'd also request that you stop calling it a Vyper. The Vyper is a Venom-chassis vehicle with a turret-mounted heavy weapon in place of the transport bay, not an overlarge jetbike. If you want to make an overlarge jetbike can you call it something else instead instead of proposing squatting the actual Vyper by implication? (I'm a fan of 'Shrieker Jetbike' (what they used to call heavy-weapon jetbikes), but according to the take-two-nouns-and-mash-them-together naming mechanism that's given us Windriders, Skyweavers, and Skyrunners you could also call it a 'Windrunner' or 'Windweaver'. Or 'Skyrider'. Or add extra nouns to the pool. 'Skydancer'. 'Breezerunner'. 'Windshrieker'. That sort of thing.)

And Warlocks ought to have an overhaul to their melee capability if we're tweaking them; they're paying for a fleshbane attack they can't get much use out of. Two Attacks to the entire Path of the Seer would be a huge step in the right direction, and players won't have to discover that these dudes with cool swords should never get into melee because they're actually no good at it.

(I'd also suggest giving the Witchblade AP3 and letting the Eldar player burn Warp Charge to pump its Strength (as per Tylos Rubio) rather than just making it Fleshbane all the time, but I need to do some more complete math on the Seer Council before making that suggestion.)

I think I can make my own point.

There will be players who refuse to use D, but most will use it.

As a BA player, D weapons are far more fair for me to face than scatterbikes by virtue of having few targets worthy of D. I never use land raiders, so the only real target would be an IK.

If I use an IK, I am consciously risking running into D weapons.

I literally can not defend myself from scatterbikes. I can't keep them off Rhino sides and dreadnought sides. They sandpaper all my infantry trivially with mass wounds. BA have not a single unit other than the Land raider or smashfether jr that can stand up to scatterlasers. Not one. Everything else drowns.

D weapons don't make my games vs Eldar lopsided. The insane pricing of the codex does. WK is too cheap for how much fire it can tank, and scatbikes and warpspiders put out WAY too much dakka for their cost. D weapons actually have nothing to do with it, since I'd never use a land raider if D wasn't in the game.

Martel732 wrote:
I think I can make my own point.

There will be players who refuse to use D, but most will use it.

As a BA player, D weapons are far more fair for me to face than scatterbikes by virtue of having few targets worthy of D. I never use land raiders, so the only real target would be an IK.

If I use an IK, I am consciously risking running into D weapons.

I literally can not defend myself from scatterbikes. I can't keep them off Rhino sides and dreadnought sides. They sandpaper all my infantry trivially with mass wounds. BA have not a single unit other than the Land raider or smashfether jr that can stand up to scatterlasers. Not one. Everything else drowns.

D weapons don't make my games vs Eldar lopsided. The insane pricing of the codex does. WK is too cheap for how much fire it can tank, and scatbikes and warpspiders put out WAY too much dakka for their cost. D weapons actually have nothing to do with it, since I'd never use a land raider if D wasn't in the game.

They have a Smash Jr?

Capt on a bike with stormshield, artificer armor, power fist and with a biker priest. Gets 2+/5+++ or 3+/5+++ vs MOST things. Obviously not S10 and the guy can be instagibbed, but he's fast, so you can avoid a lot of problems. He can tank scatterlasers and ion accelerators, though.

Martel732 wrote:
Capt on a bike with stormshield, artificer armor, power fist and with a biker priest. Gets 2+/5+++ or 3+/5+++ vs MOST things. Obviously not S10 and the guy can be instagibbed, but he's fast, so you can avoid a lot of problems. He can tank scatterlasers and ion accelerators, though.

Basically a poor version of anything from the vanilla codex then

I did say "jr" in the name. The only benefit is you can get FNP without using a command squad.

So here is a question for the group, but particularly Martel:
How would you feel if Windriders could only take 1 Scatter laser per 3 bikes at 15ppm, but any Windrider could still upgrade to a Shuricannon for 10ppm?

 Galef wrote:
So here is a question for the group, but particularly Martel:
How would you feel if Windriders could only take 1 Scatter laser per 3 bikes at 15ppm, but any Windrider could still upgrade to a Shuricannon for 10ppm?

Shuricannon is Str 6?

Yep: R24 S6 AP5 Assault 3, Bladestorm

10 ppm seems too cheap for the shuricannon.

I really want to say 20 ppm for the one scatterlaser and 15 ppm for the shuicannons. S6 is just too good.

Martel732 wrote:
10 ppm seems too cheap for the shuricannon.

I really want to say 20 ppm for the one scatterlaser and 15 ppm for the shuicannons. S6 is just too good.

Now you're just being overreactive.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
10 ppm seems too cheap for the shuricannon.

I really want to say 20 ppm for the one scatterlaser and 15 ppm for the shuicannons. S6 is just too good.

Now you're just being overreactive.

Not at all. Those weapons are extremely valuable on the windrider platform.

Martel732 wrote:
I think I can make my own point.

I'm trying to elaborate on the difference between your point and my point to people who seemed to be misinterpreting it. If you disagree with any of the words I've put in your mouth tell me so.

...There will be players who refuse to use D, but most will use it...

Here. RIGHT here. THIS is the problem. You have wandered the winds of the gestalt telepathic space and declared that most people you face are going to be munchkins who care only about winning and are going to use the most powerful toys they have access to, therefore you must preemptively write your homebrew rules, design your lists, have opinions about your units, and give advice to other players assuming you're going to only play against munchkins.

You could be attempting to design your stuff to play games against the average opponent, someone who exists somewhere between the first-time Ork-playing n00b and the Wraithknight-spamming WAAC munchkin, and then talk to your opponent about the game, but instead you've opted to declare that all of your opponents are going to be the most unpleasant powergaming min-maxxers you could possibly find so you have to out-munchkin them first.

I cannot stress this point hard enough, Martel. YOU ARE THE PROBLEM. You, this opinion, people who play like this/think this way, are THE REASON people bitch about 40k having terrible balance and an overabundance of WAAC players.

The WAAC player you're defending yourself against does not exist. Nobody is out to punch face, kick puppies, and be a dick about this game for the sake of being a dick. If you run into another WAAC munchkin it's because he's just like you and has convinced himself that WAAC munchkining is the only way to defend against the WAAC munchkin he will inevitably face across the table.

The game-theory justification for this attitude is shortsighted and moronic. Nobody cares how many games you win or lose. Everybody cares how much of a dick you are when doing it. And calling up the Prisoner's Dilemma as an excuse completely ignores that part of the issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
10 ppm seems too cheap for the shuricannon.

I really want to say 20 ppm for the one scatterlaser and 15 ppm for the shuicannons. S6 is just too good.

Now you're just being overreactive.

This is Martel. S6 is the terrifying-epic-doom-laser-of-kill-everything. Unless it's on one of his units.

If you say so.

See, the difference here is that I don't think people building the best list they can are being dicks. They are just optimizing and trying to do the best they can. I play with many such people. No one is being a dick. They are just trying to win.

I think GW are the dicks for putting in a bunch of trivial choices instead of real choices.

If I were playing a list that would efficiently mass Str 6/7 at range, I would admit that that list is very powerful. Instead, you seem hell bent to deflect just how powerful C:Eldar is just becuase there are non-optimal choices. The problem is that there is no reason for anyone to actually make those choices. Unless they are self-nerfing.

Currently, the height of BA tech seems to be having dreadnoughts cower in FW pods that mechanistically work differently than regular drop pods. What an exciting strategy.

It sounds like you are suggesting that I beg my opponents to self-nerf. That sounds like your "fix". Am I wrong?

Martel732 wrote:
If you say so.

See, the difference here is that I don't think people building the best list they can are being dicks. They are just optimizing and trying to do the best they can.

I think GW are the dicks for putting in a bunch of trivial choices instead of real choices.

I tend to take a viewpoint wherein people don't get told "you're playing the wrong Codex, you're not allowed to play". Within that framework the guy taking the Wraithknight against the Ork army is ABSOLUTELY being a dick.

As soon as you decide that winning is more important than playing something's gone horribly wrong.

We make lists before we know our opponent. There is no opportunity for being a dick. Dual WK guy doesn't know if he's playing Orks or Riptide Wing. He has to plan accordingly. That's why he takes the dual WK.

What about using the solution that was done to Ork bikes in third edition (Which were sitting at range and firing big shootas rather than getting in the enemy's face) and have any heavy weapon on a jetbike half it's range?
So limiting the scatter laser to 18" rather than 36" On Windriders

Then the 4+ armour that they should have been changed to the moment they reduced Reaver jetbikes to a 5+

Jbz` wrote:
What about using the solution that was done to Ork bikes in third edition (Which were sitting at range and firing big shootas rather than getting in the enemy's face) and have any heavy weapon on a jetbike half it's range?
So limiting the scatter laser to 18" rather than 36" On Windriders

Then the 4+ armour that they should have been changed to the moment they reduced Reaver jetbikes to a 5+

That would fix a lot, yes.

Martel732 wrote:
If you say so.

See, the difference here is that I don't think people building the best list they can are being dicks. They are just optimizing and trying to do the best they can. I play with many such people. No one is being a dick. They are just trying to win.

I think GW are the dicks for putting in a bunch of trivial choices instead of real choices.

If I were playing a list that would efficiently mass Str 6/7 at range, I would admit that that list is very powerful. Instead, you seem hell bent to deflect just how powerful C:Eldar is just becuase there are non-optimal choices. The problem is that there is no reason for anyone to actually make those choices. Unless they are self-nerfing.

Currently, the height of BA tech seems to be having dreadnoughts cower in FW pods that mechanistically work differently than regular drop pods. What an exciting strategy.

It sounds like you are suggesting that I beg my opponents to self-nerf. That sounds like your "fix". Am I wrong?

While I disagree with 90% of what Martel says, I partially agree with him on some of this post. Making a powerful list does not make you a cheater, a poor sportsman, a bad player, or a moustache twirler. At least not in the right context. There are different ways to enjoy playing the game. Some people enjoy finding the most powerful builds they can and throwing those against other extremely powerful builds. This is a perfectly fine way to enjoy the playing the game and is, arguably, the assumption when it comes to tournament play. I personally do not much care for this style of play, but telling people they're playing a game wrong is like telling them they're eating a hotdog wrong if they like relish. I don't like relish, but I don't care if you do. Unless of course someone is bringing a surprise cheese list with the goal of anhilating unsuspecting casual players. That's just a dick move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
So here is a question for the group, but particularly Martel:
How would you feel if Windriders could only take 1 Scatter laser per 3 bikes at 15ppm, but any Windrider could still upgrade to a Shuricannon for 10ppm?

I would love this solution. It tones down the firepower of scatbikes (which most people seem to agree is just too powerful and invalidates a number of unit optiosn and playstyles) while also giving you a reason to consider getting in close to bring your shuriken catapults to bare. It makes bikes more tactically interesting and brings their power level more in-line with the 90% of the codex that is reasonably balanced while acknowledging that there is a slight advantage to the scatter laser over the shuricannon.

That said, I'd also be happy to see the scatter laser go down to strength 5 to give shuricannons and starcannons more of a niche. In this scenario, we'd need to drop the cost of the laser back down to 10 points. I'd totally take a unit that uses 1 strength 5 SL per 3 bikes, but I'd also consider taking the shuricannon.

Actually, not to derail the thread (further), but what about making the shuriken cannon the gun with more shots and lower strength? My understanding is that shuriken cannons don't actually throw dramatically larger ninja stars at people, but that they simply fire a ton of them. So making them 4 shots with bladestorm could be argued to be a better mechanical fit. Then you'd have the option of either taking a 3 shot strength 6 scatter laser or a 2 shot strength 6 ap 2 star cannon. Thoughts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jbz` wrote:
What about using the solution that was done to Ork bikes in third edition (Which were sitting at range and firing big shootas rather than getting in the enemy's face) and have any heavy weapon on a jetbike half it's range?
So limiting the scatter laser to 18" rather than 36" On Windriders

Then the 4+ armour that they should have been changed to the moment they reduced Reaver jetbikes to a 5+

I would also be pretty okay with this. Though I do very much like the idea of mixing vypers into the unit for bigger, longer-ranged guns. Vypers just don't really fill a niche right now. Hornets have better guns and outflank. War walkers have battle focus to improve their ability to take advantage of cover.

So if we knock Windrider Armour saves down to 4+, does that mean we knock Harlequin Skyweaver Armour saves down from a 4+ to a 6+?

Why does everyone get pissed off that Windriders get +2 Armour, but no one seems to care that Skyweavers get +3 to their Armour ( - to 4+)?

 Happyjew wrote:
So if we knock Windrider Armour saves down to 4+, does that mean we knock Harlequin Skyweaver Armour saves down from a 4+ to a 6+?

Why does everyone get pissed off that Windriders get +2 Armour, but no one seems to care that Skyweavers get +3 to their Armour ( - to 4+)?

I think it's a matter of guardians on bikes suddenly having the same defensive statline as marines (plus jink) while also having the option to get a 2+ cover or armor save with the right attached warlock power. Being as tough as a tactical marine is not actually one of the main balance concerns regarding windriders, but it also isn't really central to the windrider's identity. So I get the impression that people see it as more of an "insult to injury" sort of thing.

Making Windriders 4+ saves would be fine in my book. Having power armor level protection from sitting on a bike that really only obscures you from the front seems a little odd, but I don't feel that such a change would do much to balance windriders. They already die reasonably quickly when you get a chance to shoot/assault them. Their problem is an obscene amount of firepower.

Comparing the armor save improvement is a bit non-sensical though. Harlies go from a 5+ invul (meaning you basically always get it) to having a 4+ armor, once per game 4+ invul, and 4+ jink (I wish they had skilled rider). Guardians go from having a 5+ armor (which most attacks ignore) to a 3+ armor. But again, I don't think these is the crux of most complaints about windriders having 3+ armor.

I like the idea brought up earlier that all Eldar Jetbikes (Windriders, Reavers, Skyweavers and Skyrunner upgrades, etc) have 4+ armour and Skilled Rider. Shining Spears and Autarchs keep their 3+ because they actually have 3+ armour apart from the bike.
It just feels right. They get a better save at the expense of snap-firing.