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Made in us
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I only want one change. Keep the blasted 3+ armor.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Galef wrote:
...Assault cannons would be an amazing weapon if they were more accessible.


Case in point: 30k Blood Angels' Dakkapredator army. 115pts/model for Fast Predators with four assault cannons per model (one twin-linked in the turret, two sponsons, one pintle-mounted) in squadrons of 1-3, in the Troops slot (with the Armoured Breakthrough Rite of War). And for 35pts/squadron you can designate a command tank that gives 4+ to ignore Shaken and Tank Hunters/Monster Hunters against targets within 24" (also known as 'the range of an assault cannon'), so you're looking at a 20% chance per shot of stripping a hull point from AV14 instead of 11% without it.

(Yes, I know 380pts is a lot for a squadron, but you get to drop an obscured Land Raider a turn with almost no chance of failure and murder Riptide Wings if you have a time-displacement adventure and end up playing a 30k list against Tau.)

...Aeldari...


(Grr. Vowels. Copyright. Grr. 'Eldar' is the species generally. Grr. Ynnead's already bringing the Rhana Dandra, he doesn't need to bring us more vowels too. Grr.) [/reactionarygriping] #reactionarygriping

(I'm trying out an update of my comedic HTML tags to the modern age.)

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Assault cannons do nothing to Riptides.
   
Made in us
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The issue is you guys are going WAY too far just to kill the unit. Nobody is going to take them if you add that many nerfs, on top of nobody taking a S5 Scatterlaser ever. I say the 4+ and 15 points Scatterlaser is not as drastic and therefore worth playtesting first due to more familiarity and easier to tweak.


For the record I've played this unit. I'm not here to heap poo on the Eldar army or kill jetbikes, I'm here to try to fix them so people can feel safe not running screaming for the hills if someone suggests using them.

I'd like to see 4+ armour, Skilled Rider, and one gun per three. I wouldn't object too strenuously to S5 scatter lasers or 15pt scatter lasers, but trying to add both is probably going overboard.

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Dallas area, TX

Martel732 wrote:

The assault cannon has so few shots that it might as well not have rending. The 24" range is murder because it puts you withing range of grav and other unpleasant weapons.

"Scatter lasers are awesome mostly because of their availability"

No, their stat line is straight up broken in 7th. If S6 couldn't scrub out so many vehicles, maybe not. But it's nuts in 7th ed. Straight up nuts.

Hold on. I'm starting to get confused about what you and I are specifically discussing. You just said the Scatter laser stat line is broken in 7th right after saying the Assault cannon has too few shots for Rending to matter. Both weapon have the same Str6 and number of shots

I just want to make sure we are on the same issue. I am discussing the Scatter laser in isolation and from the perspective of someone who has played Eldar long before anyone considered the Scatter laser to be good.
Do I understand you correctly that your basis has everything to do with the range?

Scatter lasers are "broken" in this edition not because of what they can do, but because you can field enough for them to do it.
Ask yourself this: If Scats and Assualt cannons switched places, i.e 5 Terminators could take 1 Scatter laser for 20pts and 3 Windriders could each take an Assualt cannon for 10 pts, Which unit would get the most benefit out of that?
The bikes would. It's the platform that's the problem, not the weapon.

-

   
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Martel732 wrote:
Assault cannons do nothing to Riptides.


Look, seriously, do you play 40k? Do you speak English? Because while one assault cannon may not do much to Riptides it can, and if you read my post you may notice I was suggesting pointing TWELVE assault cannons with Monster Hunter at a Riptide Wing. Which is GOING TO KILL SOME OF THEM.

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S6 is all you need to threaten almost every cost effective vehicle in the game. Your opponent brought a land raider? You've already won.

S6 is a magical sweet spot in the meta currently. Wounds all T4 on 2's, scrubs out everything from land speeders up to Imperial Knights. All from a range where nothing can effective retaliate for the most part. The Imperium has to try to divert heavy weapons away from the WKs, and you have 10 times as many heavy weapons. Cheaper, too. And better.

The basis is a combination of range, mass S6 being WAY too good in 7th ed, Eldar platforms being amazing, Imperial platforms being gak, and rending not mattering until you get up to around 20 shots or so. You can take your AP4 and rending and choke on it. Assault cannons are ripoffs for 20 pts factoring in all of the above.
   
Made in us
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In My Lab

Martel732 wrote:
"Assault cannon Pros:
-have better AP and Rending, therefore can threaten any unit no matter what"

This is actually a disadvantage, because it makes people think it can hurt things when it can't do it reliably enough. The assault cannon has so few shots that it might as well not have rending. The 24" range is murder because it puts you withing range of grav and other unpleasant weapons.

"Scatter lasers are awesome mostly because of their availability"

No, their stat line is straight up broken in 7th. If S6 couldn't scrub out so many vehicles, maybe not. But it's nuts in 7th ed. Straight up nuts.


Yes, having a more powerful weapon is always a disadvantage. /sarcasm

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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 AnomanderRake wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Assault cannons do nothing to Riptides.


Look, seriously, do you play 40k? Do you speak English? Because while one assault cannon may not do much to Riptides it can, and if you read my post you may notice I was suggesting pointing TWELVE assault cannons with Monster Hunter at a Riptide Wing. Which is GOING TO KILL SOME OF THEM.


Go do the math. I bet you it won't. They have more durability than a warhound titan for 220 pts. You are trying to force through a 2+/5+++ or a 3++/5+++. 5 wounds each. Good luck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"Assault cannon Pros:
-have better AP and Rending, therefore can threaten any unit no matter what"

This is actually a disadvantage, because it makes people think it can hurt things when it can't do it reliably enough. The assault cannon has so few shots that it might as well not have rending. The 24" range is murder because it puts you withing range of grav and other unpleasant weapons.

"Scatter lasers are awesome mostly because of their availability"

No, their stat line is straight up broken in 7th. If S6 couldn't scrub out so many vehicles, maybe not. But it's nuts in 7th ed. Straight up nuts.


Yes, having a more powerful weapon is always a disadvantage. /sarcasm


I catch people misallocating their assault cannons all the time trying to get lucky. It's not more powerful if it encourages bad choices more than it helps.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Each monster hunting assault cannon generates approximately:

2.1 regular wounds
0.53 rends

So that's 25 regular wounds and 6 rends from your 12 assault cannons.

That's 2.78 + 1.33 cleared wounds vs riptide. Last time I checked, 4.11 is smaller than 5. But tell me again how great these assault cannons are. Admittedly, Riptide is one of the few things that the scatterlaser is actually bad against. It's just that the assault cannon, even with monster hunter, isn't any better.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/03/06 22:40:13


 
   
Made in us
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In My Lab

12 Assault Cannons. Monster Hunter.

48 shots.
32 hits.
24 wounds, 8 of which rend.
Does 2.67 wounds from the regular wounds, no FNP. (1.78 with FNP.)
5.33 wounds from the rends, no FNP. (3.56 with FNP.)
2.67 if they have a 3+ Invuln, no FNP. (1.78 with FNP.)

So, in my experience, that'll handily kill a Riptide. Because they usually want to Nova Charge their gun. Even with FNP, that's over 5 wounds.

Edit: Oh, and that Warhound Titan?

12 Assault Cannon, Tank Hunter.
32 hits.
5.33 rends, which are the only thing that can do anything, then 4.45 more from Tank Hunter. 9.78 total.
7.78 after the Void Shields. Needs a 2 on the d3 to glance, pens don't matter.
5.19 HP dealt.

So, how is a Riptide more durable than a Warhound Scout Titan? I admit, its saves are better... But the WHST has much more HP than a Riptide has Wounds. And can regenerate with its Void Shields. And causes more damage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/06 22:43:30


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They rarely nova charge the gun in my experience. Why would they?

Is it just me or is it crazy that it's possible that something might be able to survive 12 assault cannons that reroll wounds? And this unit of course is not available in 40K. Are the assault cannons not twinlinked?

The warhound titan stat is with melta/lascannons in mind. I've never calculated it with assault cannons before, because it's really a non issue in 40K.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/03/06 22:45:17


 
   
Made in us
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In My Lab

Martel732 wrote:
They rarely nova charge the gun in my experience. Why would they?

Is it just me or is it crazy that it's possible that something might be able to survive 12 assault cannons that reroll wounds? And this unit of course is not available in 40K. Are the assault cannons not twinlinked?


Because they want more dakka.

And some of them are, some of them aren't. I did the math as if none of them are.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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 JNAProductions wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
They rarely nova charge the gun in my experience. Why would they?

Is it just me or is it crazy that it's possible that something might be able to survive 12 assault cannons that reroll wounds? And this unit of course is not available in 40K. Are the assault cannons not twinlinked?


Because they want more dakka.

And some of them are, some of them aren't. I did the math as if none of them are.


It's still absurd that it's this close. The imperium can't get 12 assault cannons in a list anymore, much less in one squadron in 40K, so I really don't see how this helps. I guess as a thought exercise about how 12 assault cannons can be better than 12 scatterlasers in this specific case. But again, imperium can't bring 12 assault cannons in 40K.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/06 22:47:59


 
   
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In My Lab

Because the issue is availability, yes. That's the point-if Scatterlasers were 1 in 3, they wouldn't be nearly as bad.

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 JNAProductions wrote:
Because the issue is availability, yes. That's the point-if Scatterlasers were 1 in 3, they wouldn't be nearly as bad.


Obviously. But they'd still be undercosted as a weapon. These are two different phenomenon. A weapon doesn't magically get better the more you take of them. It just allows abuse if they are miscosted. So at 1 per 3, scatterlasers would still be absurd for 10 pts, but just less abusable. Why not fix the root issue of undercostedness?

Does anyone care how many missile launchers a marine list can have? No, because the missile launcher is trash and likely overcosted. You are just multiplying failure at that point.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/06 22:51:20


 
   
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In My Lab

Which is why it's also reasonable as 10 points at S5 or 15 points at S6. Add that to 1 in 3, and Windriders sudden;y aren't so bad.

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 JNAProductions wrote:
Which is why it's also reasonable as 10 points at S5 or 15 points at S6. Add that to 1 in 3, and Windriders sudden;y aren't so bad.


I'd obviously agree to 15 pts at S6, but it should really be 20. 12" range on an eldar platform is well worth AP4 and rending. The bottom line is that there are too many target that S6 can take out without rending to drop it to 15 pts. There's not enough downside to the scatterlaser in the current game. It IS an assault cannon most of the time.

You don't need 1 per 3 if you cost the gun correctly. Why is everyone stuck on 1 per 3? That's the whole point of costing. No matter how many you take, it's fair.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/06 22:58:14


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Assault cannons do nothing to Riptides.


Look, seriously, do you play 40k? Do you speak English? Because while one assault cannon may not do much to Riptides it can, and if you read my post you may notice I was suggesting pointing TWELVE assault cannons with Monster Hunter at a Riptide Wing. Which is GOING TO KILL SOME OF THEM.


Go do the math. I bet you it won't. They have more durability than a warhound titan for 220 pts. You are trying to force through a 2+/5+++ or a 3++/5+++. 5 wounds each. Good luck...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Each monster hunting assault cannon generates approximately:

2.1 regular wounds
0.53 rends

So that's 25 regular wounds and 6 rends from your 12 assault cannons.

That's 2.78 + 1.33 cleared wounds vs riptide. Last time I checked, 4.11 is smaller than 5. But tell me again how great these assault cannons are. Admittedly, Riptide is one of the few things that the scatterlaser is actually bad against. It's just that the assault cannon, even with monster hunter, isn't any better.


Binomial coefficient problem. Rechecked in detail and found a 30% chance of killing one with the 3+ shield up and a 60% chance of killing one with just the 5+ shield up (~4 wounds versus ~5.5 wounds). It's going to kill one of them if the dice spike very slightly.

So. In the meantime. Tell me again where you get the assault cannon doing 'nothing' from a 60% chance to one-round a Riptide if it chooses not to turn off its ability to do more than inconvenience your Predator squadron.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
...You don't need 1 per 3 if you cost the gun correctly. Why is everyone stuck on 1 per 3? That's the whole point of costing. No matter how many you take, it's fair.


BECAUSE IT ISN'T FAIR.

If points costs are/should be the only thing that matters for reasons of balance explain to me why I can't get a heavy weapon on every Space Marine. Explain why I can't play an army of all Purifiers in GK. Explain why I shouldn't be able to take a *bleep*ing Phantom in Troops. Is it not appropriately costed? Should I not be able to use it without regard to what else is in the army if it is?

Some of us don't regard Unbound as the norm and would prefer to play a game where infantry can do something instead of a game that's been reduced to superheavies and Riptides by people like you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/06 23:11:50


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I didn't do it. GW did.

If the community likes 1 per 3 , great. But that doesn't magically make it a 10 pt gun.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/06 23:21:45


 
   
Made in us
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In My Lab

You normalize it. Then whine about it.

See, I personally love Superheavies and Gargantuans, but even I acknowledge that the power curve is too high right now.

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Martel732 wrote:
...a 10 pt gun...


THIS again? Would an Assault Cannon on a Custodes Land Raider with BS5 be worth the same amount as an Assault Cannon in a T2 abhuman-conscript weapons team with BS2?

What is your obsession with the price of the gun in a vacuum? Why is the price of a scatter laser on the weapon options list so much more important to you than the price of putting it on the table?

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Because the price increase fixes more than jetbikes. Wave serpents, warwalkers etc have to pay as well. Because the scatterlaser is worth 20 pts in 7th ed, not 10.

All eldar are now bs 4. They are all fast or have battlefocus. They are all good to fantastic platforms. Maybe a scatterlaser is worth 10 on an imperial tank, but for eldar it should be 20.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/06 23:37:42


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
I didn't do it. GW did...


This is Proposed Rules. 'But GW...' is NOT AN EXCUSE.

If you want to start a thread about how everything should be priced in a vacuum, the game should be designed around Unbound, and everybody should be allowed battlecannon-equipped Dreadknights feel free to go math out your 40k-VDR-edition project, but can you please stop barging into other peoples' threads on sensible topics to derail them into nonsensical complaints?

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I proposed my one rule. It's the best fix given the current rule set. Being able to kill superheavies from 36 " should not be so cheap.

I never claimed any of that. I never mentioned unbound. I'm talking about a singular gun in a singular army needs a points hike. That's it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/06 23:41:46


 
   
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 AnomanderRake wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The issue is you guys are going WAY too far just to kill the unit. Nobody is going to take them if you add that many nerfs, on top of nobody taking a S5 Scatterlaser ever. I say the 4+ and 15 points Scatterlaser is not as drastic and therefore worth playtesting first due to more familiarity and easier to tweak.


For the record I've played this unit. I'm not here to heap poo on the Eldar army or kill jetbikes, I'm here to try to fix them so people can feel safe not running screaming for the hills if someone suggests using them.

I'd like to see 4+ armour, Skilled Rider, and one gun per three. I wouldn't object too strenuously to S5 scatter lasers or 15pt scatter lasers, but trying to add both is probably going overboard.

S5 Scatterlasers means you won't see Scatterlasers taken on anything.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
Because the price increase fixes more than jetbikes. Wave serpents, warwalkers etc have to pay as well. Because the scatterlaser is worth 20 pts in 7th ed, not 10.


A SCATTER LASER ON A JETBIKE IS NOT TEN POINTS. IT IS TWENTY-SEVEN POINTS.

A SCATTER LASER ON A WAVE SERPENT IS NOT TEN POINTS. IT IS ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTEEN POINTS.

Your incessant conviction that a Scatter Laser is 'worth' 20pts instead of 10pts is gibberish. You presume that a Scatter Laser is, and ought to be, the same cost on every plaftorm, then you presume that you happen to know that the price is 10pts because that's what the option in the Windrider unit entry says it is.

A Scatter Laser on a Windrider Jetbike is worth 10pts more than a twin-linked shuriken catapult on a Windrider Jetbike. A twin-linked Scatter Laser on a Wave Serpent is worth 5pts more than a twin-linked shuirken cannon on a Wave Serpent. A Scatter Laser in a vacuum not attached to a model is worth nothing, because it DOES NOT EXIST.

Can we argue about the game instead of your metaphysical thought experiment?

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Fine by me. But we are supposed to make due with heavy bolters?
   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The issue is you guys are going WAY too far just to kill the unit. Nobody is going to take them if you add that many nerfs, on top of nobody taking a S5 Scatterlaser ever. I say the 4+ and 15 points Scatterlaser is not as drastic and therefore worth playtesting first due to more familiarity and easier to tweak.


For the record I've played this unit. I'm not here to heap poo on the Eldar army or kill jetbikes, I'm here to try to fix them so people can feel safe not running screaming for the hills if someone suggests using them.

I'd like to see 4+ armour, Skilled Rider, and one gun per three. I wouldn't object too strenuously to S5 scatter lasers or 15pt scatter lasers, but trying to add both is probably going overboard.

S5 Scatterlasers means you won't see Scatterlasers taken on anything.


I'd take them on a lot of things at S5. They wouldn't be the default answer to everything the way they are today, that doesn't mean they'd be bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
Fine by me. But we are supposed to make due with heavy bolters?


You're supposed to get your head out of your behind on the subject of AP4, recognize that the heavy bolter is a backup weapon on vehicles, and start asking yourself whether the fact that your T4/3+ armour models are paying less for their heavy bolters than T3/5+ armour Guardians are paying for scatter lasers might means that the developers know they're worse than scatter lasers and have priced them as such.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/06 23:50:10


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"A SCATTER LASER ON A JETBIKE IS NOT TEN POINTS. IT IS TWENTY-SEVEN POINTS.

A SCATTER LASER ON A WAVE SERPENT IS NOT TEN POINTS. IT IS ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTEEN POINTS. "

I think a scatterlaser on a jet bike should cost 37 pointss.

I think it should be 125 on a wave serpent.

Units have a base cost and then a surcharge to add on options. In most/all cases, I think the surcharge for scatterlasers should be 20 pts. I don't see why that's so hard to understand. Almost all Eldar units are equally proficient at using them. I suppose if the base gun is a shuriken cannon, the cost should be modified. So let me refine this. Any unit upgrading from nothing or a shuriken catapult should be paying 20 for said upgrade. I don't know what warwalkers come with standard, so that might change things there.

"You're supposed to get your head out of your behind on the subject of AP4, recognize that the heavy bolter is a backup weapon on vehicles, and start asking yourself whether the fact that your T4/3+ armour models are paying less for their heavy bolters than T3/5+ armour Guardians are paying for scatter lasers might means that the developers know they're worse than scatter lasers and have priced them as such."

The gulf between the two weapons is much larger than 5 pts. That's the problem. A scatterlaser is usually twice as good as a heavy bolter. As it stands heavy bolters cost too much in the meta and scatterlasers are, again, too cheap. AP 4 is very poor due to the commonality of 5+ cover. If the heavy bolter could ignore cover consistently, AP 4 looks a lot better. But downgrading from someone from 4+ to 5+ sucks.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/03/07 00:16:25


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
"A SCATTER LASER ON A JETBIKE IS NOT TEN POINTS. IT IS TWENTY-SEVEN POINTS.

A SCATTER LASER ON A WAVE SERPENT IS NOT TEN POINTS. IT IS ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTEEN POINTS. "

I think a scatterlaser on a jet bike should cost 37 pointss.

I think it should be 125 on a wave serpent.

Units have a base cost and then a surcharge to add on options. In most/all cases, I think the surcharge for scatterlasers should be 20 pts. I don't see why that's so hard to understand. Almost all Eldar units are equally proficient at using them. I suppose if the base gun is a shuriken cannon, the cost should be modified.


If the surcharge for Scatter Lasers should be 20pts in all cases why are you suggesting it should be 15pts on the Wave Serpent?

Why does the weapon need to have the exact same price on the upgrade lists regardless of what you're upgrading from? Why should it cost the same to replace a twin-linked shuriken catapult with a single scatter laser as it does to replace a twin-linked shuriken cannon with a twin-linked scatter laser?

Can you get this idea that a single gun in a vacuum has an absolute cost out of your head for a second and explain to me why you'd rather a Windrider squad with a scatter laser cost 37pts for one model with one scatter laser rather than 61pts for three model with one scatter laser? If the scatter laser is too cheap WHY ARE YOU THE ONE ARGUING TO KEEP IT THAT WAY?


"You're supposed to get your head out of your behind on the subject of AP4, recognize that the heavy bolter is a backup weapon on vehicles, and start asking yourself whether the fact that your T4/3+ armour models are paying less for their heavy bolters than T3/5+ armour Guardians are paying for scatter lasers might means that the developers know they're worse than scatter lasers and have priced them as such."

The gulf between the two weapons is much larger than 5 pts. That's the problem. A scatterlaser is usually twice as good as a heavy bolter. As it stands heavy bolters cost too much in the meta and scatterlasers are, again, too cheap. AP 4 is complete due to the commonality of 5+ cover. If the heavy bolter could ignore cover consistently, AP 4 looks a lot better. But downgrading from someone from 4+ to 5+ sucks.



AGAIN. DROP the idea of a gun in a vacuum. I'm going to take this argument to its logical conclusion for a moment. Should a gun on a BS4 single-Wound infantry model with Toughness 1 and no saves cost the same as the same gun on an AV15 60-HP superheavy with a rerollable 2+ Invulnerable save, so long as both have BS4?

More durable models should be paying more for their upgrade weapons because a gun in a T4/3+ armour unit is harder to get rid of and is thus going to spend more of the game shooting and take up more enemy resources.

So if you can parse that idea can you explain to me why you're taking a cost of 80pts for five T4/3+ models with one heavy bolter and four bolters and a cost of 105pts for ten T3/5+ models with one scatter laser and nine shuriken catapults, and declaring that every other factor involved in comparing the two units needs to be thrown out in favour of looking at the cost of replacing a boltgun with a heavy bolter and the cost of replacing a shuriken catapult with a scatter laser in a vacuum?


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
 
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