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 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why? When you have D weapons at your disposal?

Because I'm trying to play the game, not use the godmode cheat to just up and win everything.

But Martel's point, I think, is that not everyone will have that restraint.
While you could use Bright lances and I could use Shuricannon bikes, we're only 2 out of hundreds of Eldar players
It only takes a few players to take full advantage of what is perfectly legal to play and everyone who plays that army is now TFG.
An Eldar player can choice to tone down their choices, but those facing Eldar cannot tone down every Eldar list they face outside of friendly games.

People want to win by nature. At the very least, we want the game to be interesting and participate in it and not get tabled. The best way to do that is to take competitive choices.
Eldar have the tools for this.
It would be nice if GW limted certain choices so that Johnny Get Started doesn't steam roll his buddies just because he picked the "right" army.
It is possible to have balance and cool units.

Back on Topic, Here is my final proposed WIndrider unit:

Stat line as now, but 4+ armour and Skilled rider 17ppm
Any model may exchange its Shuricats for Shuricannon -10ppm or Scatter laser 15ppm
May add 1 Warlock Skyrunner*
May add 1 Vyper

Vypers are now T5 w/ 2 wounds, 4+ armour, Skilled Rider. Weapon options are the same as current. Obviously no vehicle upgrades


*and all Warlock are LD9. Seriously why are they LD8? All Warlocks were Aspect Warriors before walking the path of the Seer and all Aspect Warriors are LD9. Not just the Exarch, ALL Aspects!

 Galef wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why? When you have D weapons at your disposal?

Because I'm trying to play the game, not use the godmode cheat to just up and win everything.

But Martel's point, I think, is that not everyone will have that restraint.
While you could use Bright lances and I could use Shuricannon bikes, we're only 2 out of hundreds of Eldar players
It only takes a few players to take full advantage of what is perfectly legal to play and everyone who plays that army is now TFG.
An Eldar player can choice to tone down their choices, but those facing Eldar cannot tone down every Eldar list they face outside of friendly games.

People want to win by nature. At the very least, we want the game to be interesting and participate in it and not get tabled. The best way to do that is to take competitive choices.
Eldar have the tools for this.
It would be nice if GW limted certain choices so that Johnny Get Started doesn't steam roll his buddies just because he picked the "right" army.
It is possible to have balance and cool units.

Back on Topic, Here is my final proposed WIndrider unit:

Stat line as now, but 4+ armour and Skilled rider 17ppm
Any model may exchange its Shuricats for Shuricannon -10ppm or Scatter laser 15ppm
May add 1 Warlock Skyrunner*
May add 1 Vyper

Vypers are now T5 w/ 2 wounds, 4+ armour, Skilled Rider. Weapon options are the same as current. Obviously no vehicle upgrades


*and all Warlock are LD9. Seriously why are they LD8? All Warlocks were Aspect Warriors before walking the path of the Seer and all Aspect Warriors are LD9. Not just the Exarch, ALL Aspects!

That's in line for what I had in mind. You might be able to get away with 3+ on the Vyper for the price.

Maybe, but I think it's easier if the whole unit has the same save. Mixing T is doesn't required separate rolls and I think making the Vyper T5 helps it more as its Fast Attack version

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why? When you have D weapons at your disposal?

Because I'm trying to play the game, not use the godmode cheat to just up and win everything.

D weapons are part of the game now. They are not cheating.

 Galef wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why? When you have D weapons at your disposal?

Because I'm trying to play the game, not use the godmode cheat to just up and win everything.

But Martel's point, I think, is that not everyone will have that restraint.
While you could use Bright lances and I could use Shuricannon bikes, we're only 2 out of hundreds of Eldar players
It only takes a few players to take full advantage of what is perfectly legal to play and everyone who plays that army is now TFG.
An Eldar player can choice to tone down their choices, but those facing Eldar cannot tone down every Eldar list they face outside of friendly games.

People want to win by nature. At the very least, we want the game to be interesting and participate in it and not get tabled. The best way to do that is to take competitive choices.
Eldar have the tools for this.
It would be nice if GW limted certain choices so that Johnny Get Started doesn't steam roll his buddies just because he picked the "right" army.
It is possible to have balance and cool units.

Martel's point isn't that not all players have the same restraint, his point is that no players have any restraint. There's a subtle distinction between the two points; if you take my position you accept that things like massed Destroyer weapons are mistakes made by the developers that aren't going to happen in most games and therefore should not be used as the basis for designing other units, whereas if you take Martel's position Destroyers weapons exist in the game, therefore are going to be used by all players in all games, therefore units must be designed assuming they're going to be fighting the most overpowered things every single game.

Contrary to popular belief winning is not fun and losing is not unfun. Close games are fun, whether you won or lost, and effortless steamrolls are unfun, whether you won or lost. I'd rather attempt to design around a set of sense of restraint designed to produce close games rather than constantly escalating in response to the latest screwup made by the developers.

Back on Topic, Here is my final proposed WIndrider unit:

Stat line as now, but 4+ armour and Skilled rider 17ppm
Any model may exchange its Shuricats for Shuricannon -10ppm or Scatter laser 15ppm
May add 1 Warlock Skyrunner*
May add 1 Vyper

Vypers are now T5 w/ 2 wounds, 4+ armour, Skilled Rider. Weapon options are the same as current. Obviously no vehicle upgrades


*and all Warlock are LD9. Seriously why are they LD8? All Warlocks were Aspect Warriors before walking the path of the Seer and all Aspect Warriors are LD9. Not just the Exarch, ALL Aspects!

I'd much rather see one gun per three than a gun upgrade available for everyone, but we're flogging a dead jetbike on that one at this point. On the other changes:

I'm confused as to why the Vyper is necessary in this unit. The Attack Bike carries different weapons from the rest of the unit, what is your Vyper here to do? Be slightly larger and have a different Toughness value it can't really use?

I'd also request that you stop calling it a Vyper. The Vyper is a Venom-chassis vehicle with a turret-mounted heavy weapon in place of the transport bay, not an overlarge jetbike. If you want to make an overlarge jetbike can you call it something else instead instead of proposing squatting the actual Vyper by implication? (I'm a fan of 'Shrieker Jetbike' (what they used to call heavy-weapon jetbikes), but according to the take-two-nouns-and-mash-them-together naming mechanism that's given us Windriders, Skyweavers, and Skyrunners you could also call it a 'Windrunner' or 'Windweaver'. Or 'Skyrider'. Or add extra nouns to the pool. 'Skydancer'. 'Breezerunner'. 'Windshrieker'. That sort of thing.)

And Warlocks ought to have an overhaul to their melee capability if we're tweaking them; they're paying for a fleshbane attack they can't get much use out of. Two Attacks to the entire Path of the Seer would be a huge step in the right direction, and players won't have to discover that these dudes with cool swords should never get into melee because they're actually no good at it.

(I'd also suggest giving the Witchblade AP3 and letting the Eldar player burn Warp Charge to pump its Strength (as per Tylos Rubio) rather than just making it Fleshbane all the time, but I need to do some more complete math on the Seer Council before making that suggestion.)

I think I can make my own point.

There will be players who refuse to use D, but most will use it.

As a BA player, D weapons are far more fair for me to face than scatterbikes by virtue of having few targets worthy of D. I never use land raiders, so the only real target would be an IK.

If I use an IK, I am consciously risking running into D weapons.

I literally can not defend myself from scatterbikes. I can't keep them off Rhino sides and dreadnought sides. They sandpaper all my infantry trivially with mass wounds. BA have not a single unit other than the Land raider or smashfether jr that can stand up to scatterlasers. Not one. Everything else drowns.

D weapons don't make my games vs Eldar lopsided. The insane pricing of the codex does. WK is too cheap for how much fire it can tank, and scatbikes and warpspiders put out WAY too much dakka for their cost. D weapons actually have nothing to do with it, since I'd never use a land raider if D wasn't in the game.

Martel732 wrote:
I think I can make my own point.

There will be players who refuse to use D, but most will use it.

As a BA player, D weapons are far more fair for me to face than scatterbikes by virtue of having few targets worthy of D. I never use land raiders, so the only real target would be an IK.

If I use an IK, I am consciously risking running into D weapons.

I literally can not defend myself from scatterbikes. I can't keep them off Rhino sides and dreadnought sides. They sandpaper all my infantry trivially with mass wounds. BA have not a single unit other than the Land raider or smashfether jr that can stand up to scatterlasers. Not one. Everything else drowns.

D weapons don't make my games vs Eldar lopsided. The insane pricing of the codex does. WK is too cheap for how much fire it can tank, and scatbikes and warpspiders put out WAY too much dakka for their cost. D weapons actually have nothing to do with it, since I'd never use a land raider if D wasn't in the game.

They have a Smash Jr?

Capt on a bike with stormshield, artificer armor, power fist and with a biker priest. Gets 2+/5+++ or 3+/5+++ vs MOST things. Obviously not S10 and the guy can be instagibbed, but he's fast, so you can avoid a lot of problems. He can tank scatterlasers and ion accelerators, though.

Martel732 wrote:
Capt on a bike with stormshield, artificer armor, power fist and with a biker priest. Gets 2+/5+++ or 3+/5+++ vs MOST things. Obviously not S10 and the guy can be instagibbed, but he's fast, so you can avoid a lot of problems. He can tank scatterlasers and ion accelerators, though.

Basically a poor version of anything from the vanilla codex then

I did say "jr" in the name. The only benefit is you can get FNP without using a command squad.

So here is a question for the group, but particularly Martel:
How would you feel if Windriders could only take 1 Scatter laser per 3 bikes at 15ppm, but any Windrider could still upgrade to a Shuricannon for 10ppm?

 Galef wrote:
So here is a question for the group, but particularly Martel:
How would you feel if Windriders could only take 1 Scatter laser per 3 bikes at 15ppm, but any Windrider could still upgrade to a Shuricannon for 10ppm?

Shuricannon is Str 6?

Yep: R24 S6 AP5 Assault 3, Bladestorm

10 ppm seems too cheap for the shuricannon.

I really want to say 20 ppm for the one scatterlaser and 15 ppm for the shuicannons. S6 is just too good.

Martel732 wrote:
10 ppm seems too cheap for the shuricannon.

I really want to say 20 ppm for the one scatterlaser and 15 ppm for the shuicannons. S6 is just too good.

Now you're just being overreactive.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
10 ppm seems too cheap for the shuricannon.

I really want to say 20 ppm for the one scatterlaser and 15 ppm for the shuicannons. S6 is just too good.

Now you're just being overreactive.

Not at all. Those weapons are extremely valuable on the windrider platform.

Martel732 wrote:
I think I can make my own point.

I'm trying to elaborate on the difference between your point and my point to people who seemed to be misinterpreting it. If you disagree with any of the words I've put in your mouth tell me so.

...There will be players who refuse to use D, but most will use it...

Here. RIGHT here. THIS is the problem. You have wandered the winds of the gestalt telepathic space and declared that most people you face are going to be munchkins who care only about winning and are going to use the most powerful toys they have access to, therefore you must preemptively write your homebrew rules, design your lists, have opinions about your units, and give advice to other players assuming you're going to only play against munchkins.

You could be attempting to design your stuff to play games against the average opponent, someone who exists somewhere between the first-time Ork-playing n00b and the Wraithknight-spamming WAAC munchkin, and then talk to your opponent about the game, but instead you've opted to declare that all of your opponents are going to be the most unpleasant powergaming min-maxxers you could possibly find so you have to out-munchkin them first.

I cannot stress this point hard enough, Martel. YOU ARE THE PROBLEM. You, this opinion, people who play like this/think this way, are THE REASON people bitch about 40k having terrible balance and an overabundance of WAAC players.

The WAAC player you're defending yourself against does not exist. Nobody is out to punch face, kick puppies, and be a dick about this game for the sake of being a dick. If you run into another WAAC munchkin it's because he's just like you and has convinced himself that WAAC munchkining is the only way to defend against the WAAC munchkin he will inevitably face across the table.

The game-theory justification for this attitude is shortsighted and moronic. Nobody cares how many games you win or lose. Everybody cares how much of a dick you are when doing it. And calling up the Prisoner's Dilemma as an excuse completely ignores that part of the issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
10 ppm seems too cheap for the shuricannon.

I really want to say 20 ppm for the one scatterlaser and 15 ppm for the shuicannons. S6 is just too good.

Now you're just being overreactive.

This is Martel. S6 is the terrifying-epic-doom-laser-of-kill-everything. Unless it's on one of his units.

If you say so.

See, the difference here is that I don't think people building the best list they can are being dicks. They are just optimizing and trying to do the best they can. I play with many such people. No one is being a dick. They are just trying to win.

I think GW are the dicks for putting in a bunch of trivial choices instead of real choices.

If I were playing a list that would efficiently mass Str 6/7 at range, I would admit that that list is very powerful. Instead, you seem hell bent to deflect just how powerful C:Eldar is just becuase there are non-optimal choices. The problem is that there is no reason for anyone to actually make those choices. Unless they are self-nerfing.

Currently, the height of BA tech seems to be having dreadnoughts cower in FW pods that mechanistically work differently than regular drop pods. What an exciting strategy.

It sounds like you are suggesting that I beg my opponents to self-nerf. That sounds like your "fix". Am I wrong?

Martel732 wrote:
If you say so.

See, the difference here is that I don't think people building the best list they can are being dicks. They are just optimizing and trying to do the best they can.

I think GW are the dicks for putting in a bunch of trivial choices instead of real choices.

I tend to take a viewpoint wherein people don't get told "you're playing the wrong Codex, you're not allowed to play". Within that framework the guy taking the Wraithknight against the Ork army is ABSOLUTELY being a dick.

As soon as you decide that winning is more important than playing something's gone horribly wrong.

We make lists before we know our opponent. There is no opportunity for being a dick. Dual WK guy doesn't know if he's playing Orks or Riptide Wing. He has to plan accordingly. That's why he takes the dual WK.

What about using the solution that was done to Ork bikes in third edition (Which were sitting at range and firing big shootas rather than getting in the enemy's face) and have any heavy weapon on a jetbike half it's range?
So limiting the scatter laser to 18" rather than 36" On Windriders

Then the 4+ armour that they should have been changed to the moment they reduced Reaver jetbikes to a 5+

Jbz` wrote:
What about using the solution that was done to Ork bikes in third edition (Which were sitting at range and firing big shootas rather than getting in the enemy's face) and have any heavy weapon on a jetbike half it's range?
So limiting the scatter laser to 18" rather than 36" On Windriders

Then the 4+ armour that they should have been changed to the moment they reduced Reaver jetbikes to a 5+

That would fix a lot, yes.

Martel732 wrote:
If you say so.

See, the difference here is that I don't think people building the best list they can are being dicks. They are just optimizing and trying to do the best they can. I play with many such people. No one is being a dick. They are just trying to win.

I think GW are the dicks for putting in a bunch of trivial choices instead of real choices.

If I were playing a list that would efficiently mass Str 6/7 at range, I would admit that that list is very powerful. Instead, you seem hell bent to deflect just how powerful C:Eldar is just becuase there are non-optimal choices. The problem is that there is no reason for anyone to actually make those choices. Unless they are self-nerfing.

Currently, the height of BA tech seems to be having dreadnoughts cower in FW pods that mechanistically work differently than regular drop pods. What an exciting strategy.

It sounds like you are suggesting that I beg my opponents to self-nerf. That sounds like your "fix". Am I wrong?

While I disagree with 90% of what Martel says, I partially agree with him on some of this post. Making a powerful list does not make you a cheater, a poor sportsman, a bad player, or a moustache twirler. At least not in the right context. There are different ways to enjoy playing the game. Some people enjoy finding the most powerful builds they can and throwing those against other extremely powerful builds. This is a perfectly fine way to enjoy the playing the game and is, arguably, the assumption when it comes to tournament play. I personally do not much care for this style of play, but telling people they're playing a game wrong is like telling them they're eating a hotdog wrong if they like relish. I don't like relish, but I don't care if you do. Unless of course someone is bringing a surprise cheese list with the goal of anhilating unsuspecting casual players. That's just a dick move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
So here is a question for the group, but particularly Martel:
How would you feel if Windriders could only take 1 Scatter laser per 3 bikes at 15ppm, but any Windrider could still upgrade to a Shuricannon for 10ppm?

I would love this solution. It tones down the firepower of scatbikes (which most people seem to agree is just too powerful and invalidates a number of unit optiosn and playstyles) while also giving you a reason to consider getting in close to bring your shuriken catapults to bare. It makes bikes more tactically interesting and brings their power level more in-line with the 90% of the codex that is reasonably balanced while acknowledging that there is a slight advantage to the scatter laser over the shuricannon.

That said, I'd also be happy to see the scatter laser go down to strength 5 to give shuricannons and starcannons more of a niche. In this scenario, we'd need to drop the cost of the laser back down to 10 points. I'd totally take a unit that uses 1 strength 5 SL per 3 bikes, but I'd also consider taking the shuricannon.

Actually, not to derail the thread (further), but what about making the shuriken cannon the gun with more shots and lower strength? My understanding is that shuriken cannons don't actually throw dramatically larger ninja stars at people, but that they simply fire a ton of them. So making them 4 shots with bladestorm could be argued to be a better mechanical fit. Then you'd have the option of either taking a 3 shot strength 6 scatter laser or a 2 shot strength 6 ap 2 star cannon. Thoughts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jbz` wrote:
What about using the solution that was done to Ork bikes in third edition (Which were sitting at range and firing big shootas rather than getting in the enemy's face) and have any heavy weapon on a jetbike half it's range?
So limiting the scatter laser to 18" rather than 36" On Windriders

Then the 4+ armour that they should have been changed to the moment they reduced Reaver jetbikes to a 5+

I would also be pretty okay with this. Though I do very much like the idea of mixing vypers into the unit for bigger, longer-ranged guns. Vypers just don't really fill a niche right now. Hornets have better guns and outflank. War walkers have battle focus to improve their ability to take advantage of cover.

So if we knock Windrider Armour saves down to 4+, does that mean we knock Harlequin Skyweaver Armour saves down from a 4+ to a 6+?

Why does everyone get pissed off that Windriders get +2 Armour, but no one seems to care that Skyweavers get +3 to their Armour ( - to 4+)?

 Happyjew wrote:
So if we knock Windrider Armour saves down to 4+, does that mean we knock Harlequin Skyweaver Armour saves down from a 4+ to a 6+?

Why does everyone get pissed off that Windriders get +2 Armour, but no one seems to care that Skyweavers get +3 to their Armour ( - to 4+)?

I think it's a matter of guardians on bikes suddenly having the same defensive statline as marines (plus jink) while also having the option to get a 2+ cover or armor save with the right attached warlock power. Being as tough as a tactical marine is not actually one of the main balance concerns regarding windriders, but it also isn't really central to the windrider's identity. So I get the impression that people see it as more of an "insult to injury" sort of thing.

Making Windriders 4+ saves would be fine in my book. Having power armor level protection from sitting on a bike that really only obscures you from the front seems a little odd, but I don't feel that such a change would do much to balance windriders. They already die reasonably quickly when you get a chance to shoot/assault them. Their problem is an obscene amount of firepower.

Comparing the armor save improvement is a bit non-sensical though. Harlies go from a 5+ invul (meaning you basically always get it) to having a 4+ armor, once per game 4+ invul, and 4+ jink (I wish they had skilled rider). Guardians go from having a 5+ armor (which most attacks ignore) to a 3+ armor. But again, I don't think these is the crux of most complaints about windriders having 3+ armor.

I like the idea brought up earlier that all Eldar Jetbikes (Windriders, Reavers, Skyweavers and Skyrunner upgrades, etc) have 4+ armour and Skilled Rider. Shining Spears and Autarchs keep their 3+ because they actually have 3+ armour apart from the bike.
It just feels right. They get a better save at the expense of snap-firing.