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" If the scatter laser is too cheap WHY ARE YOU THE ONE ARGUING TO KEEP IT THAT WAY? "

Up above I said 1 per 3 is fine if the community insists. That one bike per 3 should still be a 37 pt model, however. I'm more concerned about upgrade cost over the shuriken catapult than the limitation per squad. If a squad of 3 scatterbikes were 111 pts, that's sufficiently fragile/pt to justify their firepower.

" Should a gun on a BS4 single-Wound infantry model with Toughness 1 and no saves cost the same as the same gun on an AV15 60-HP superheavy with a rerollable 2+ Invulnerable save, so long as both have BS4? "

No.

"So if you can parse that idea can you explain to me why you're taking a cost of 80pts for five T4/3+ models with one heavy bolter and four bolters and a cost of 105pts for ten T3/5+ models with one scatter laser and nine shuriken catapults, and declaring that every other factor involved in comparing the two units needs to be thrown out in favour of looking at the cost of replacing a boltgun with a heavy bolter and the cost of replacing a shuriken catapult with a scatter laser in a vacuum? "

I'm not. I just would say that those 10 models with scatterlaser should cost more than 105 pts.

Martel732 wrote:
...I don't see why that's so hard to understand...

Your proposal is difficult to understand because there's no logic, pattern, or sense behind it. You're arguing that all units that have the word 'scatter laser' in their unit upgrade list need to have 10pts added to that option, regardless of whether it's twin-linked, what they're upgrading from, whether the unit is overpowered (scatterbikes), merely good (Wave Serpents), mediocre (Guardian Defenders), or downright terrible (Vypers). You're arguing that this 10pt price hike needs to happen to things that would be utterly unaffected by the existence or nonexistence of their scatter laser or option thereof in the first place (Vampires, Wraithknights, Scorpions).

And your only justification is "the scatter laser is a 20pt gun".

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
...I don't see why that's so hard to understand...

Your proposal is difficult to understand because there's no logic, pattern, or sense behind it. You're arguing that all units that have the word 'scatter laser' in their unit upgrade list need to have 10pts added to that option, regardless of whether it's twin-linked, what they're upgrading from, whether the unit is overpowered (scatterbikes), merely good (Wave Serpents), mediocre (Guardian Defenders), or downright terrible (Vypers). You're arguing that this 10pt price hike needs to happen to things that would be utterly unaffected by the existence or nonexistence of their scatter laser or option thereof in the first place (Vampires, Wraithknights, Scorpions).

And your only justification is "the scatter laser is a 20pt gun".

I've changed my mind on this because I forgot that not every Eldar unit is upgrading from nothing or a shuriken catapult. Vypers are not terrible, either. Only in the context of C:Eldar, and even then, fast shooting is not terrible. The upgrade from no weapon or shuriken catatpult should be 20 pts. That's what I'm trying to say.

Martel732 wrote:
" Should a gun on a BS4 single-Wound infantry model with Toughness 1 and no saves cost the same as the same gun on an AV15 60-HP superheavy with a rerollable 2+ Invulnerable save, so long as both have BS4? "

No.

SO STOP TELLING ME THAT ALL UNITS WITH SCATTER LASERS NEED THE SAME PRICE CHANGE BECAUSE 'THE SCATTER LASER IS A 20PT GUN'.

"So if you can parse that idea can you explain to me why you're taking a cost of 80pts for five T4/3+ models with one heavy bolter and four bolters and a cost of 105pts for ten T3/5+ models with one scatter laser and nine shuriken catapults, and declaring that every other factor involved in comparing the two units needs to be thrown out in favour of looking at the cost of replacing a boltgun with a heavy bolter and the cost of replacing a shuriken catapult with a scatter laser in a vacuum? "

I'm not. I just would say that those 10 models with scatterlaser should cost more than 105 pts.

...And does your argument start and stop with "the scatter laser is worth more than 5pts more than the heavy bolter", or is there more to it?

Maybe it's better to say that the scattlerlaser is undercosted by various amounts across the board, (10pts for windriders), and the heavy bolter is overcosted by various amounts across the board. The heavy bolter is really bad at its alleged job.

Even GW doesn't go by the idea of weapons costing different amounts for platform. I think assault cannons are almost always +20 pts. That's probably where I got that in my head for scatterlasers. Plasma guns cost the same for guardsmen as marines and obviously shouldn't.

My basis for the whole thing is the functional gap between S5 and S6 and the relative uselessness of AP4/5 in the game as a whole.

Martel732 wrote:
...Vypers are not terrible, either. Only in the context of C:Eldar, and even then, fast shooting is not terrible...

...Go home and play a few games with your Land Speeders. Then come back and tell me you'd still use them if you couldn't have a multi-melta or heavy flamer, and they were actually Open-Topped so every gun in the game gets a shot at one-shotting them.

Vypers are not bad because of the comparison to other units in the Eldar Codex, they're bad because they're a mobile platform with guns that fundamentally don't care about being on a mobile platform. Given the option to take your 36" range anti-tank gun that doesn't care about having side arc on pretty much anything by virtue of the Lance rule on a platform that can move quickly and can Jink, or a platform that doesn't move quickly, has a built-in Invulnerable save, and doesn't have a chance of crashing if it makes use of available cover, which are you going to pick?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
...Vypers are not terrible, either. Only in the context of C:Eldar, and even then, fast shooting is not terrible...

...Go home and play a few games with your Land Speeders. Then come back and tell me you'd still use them if you couldn't have a multi-melta or heavy flamer, and they were actually Open-Topped so every gun in the game gets a shot at one-shotting them.

Vypers are not bad because of the comparison to other units in the Eldar Codex, they're bad because they're a mobile platform with guns that fundamentally don't care about being on a mobile platform. Given the option to take your 36" range anti-tank gun that doesn't care about having side arc on pretty much anything by virtue of the Lance rule on a platform that can move quickly and can Jink, or a platform that doesn't move quickly, has a built-in Invulnerable save, and doesn't have a chance of crashing if it makes use of available cover, which are you going to pick?

I don't use multi meltas or heavy flamers on my speeders usually. I don't really care about open topped, either. They're far more likely to get hull pointed out at AV 10. The chances of being exploded only surpass hull pointing in the case of AP 1. This is one of the phenomena in the game that make scatterlasers and S6/7 spam so incredibly good. Lascannons are reduced to hull point stripping weapons, so you might as well not use them. There's no reason to bring dedicated anti-tank. You don't need it. If I could take vypers in my BA lists, they would probably make it in over land speeders because Eldar weapons are so much better.

And yeah, I think vypers with scatterlasers should cost some amount more than they currently do. Because scatterlasers are that good. 36" range will protect you from a lot of counterfire. (Like assault cannons, ironically)

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe it's better to say that the scattlerlaser is undercosted by various amounts across the board, (10pts for windriders), and the heavy bolter is overcosted by various amounts across the board. The heavy bolter is really bad at its alleged job.

Even GW doesn't go by the idea of weapons costing different amounts for platform. I think assault cannons are almost always +20 pts. That's probably where I got that in my head for scatterlasers. Plasma guns cost the same for guardsmen as marines and obviously shouldn't.

The problem is that the scatter laser isn't undercosted across the board, and the heavy bolter/assault cannon isn't overcosted across the board.

GW may not buy the idea of weapons costing different amounts per platform, but that doesn't mean weapons should cost the same as upgrades on different platforms. Not to mention that the cost of upgrading to the weapon stuck to the price of the unit quite frequently means that a weapon is for all practical purposes, more/less expensive on different platforms; a single Guardsman pays 15pts (same as a Space Marine) to swap his lasgun for a plasma gun, but ten Guardsmen with a plasma gun are still 20pts cheaper than five Space Marines with a plasma gun.

The relationship between the cost of the unit and the cost of the weapon is such that looking at the weapon upgrade cost in a vacuum is not helpful information. Look at the cost of putting the gun on the table and the advantages, disadvantages, rules, components, extra stuff, etc. that comes with it.

All Eldar gun platforms are fast or have battle focus. Now they are all BS 4. Many of them can jink. On these platforms, the scatterlaser is undercosted, since they can maneuver the weapon into the arc they need vs vehicles very easily.

Eldar have many, many advantages and practically no disadvantages. Almost every frequently used Eldar unit is undercosted.

Given its mathematical niche in 7th, I would say that the scatterlaser IS undercosted across the board, but not by the same amount in every case as you have made me realize.

Conversely, the heavy bolter/assault cannon is almost certainly overcosted in every case due to where you find them.

I would suggest you find a unit with scatterlaser whose current price is appropriate and the same for heavy bolter/assault cannon.

Martel732 wrote:
...I don't use multi meltas or heavy flamers on my speeders usually...

...You, the king of "HB/AC suck!", use them on your Land Speeders? Or are you spending 150pts to get two Typhoon launchers instead of 130pts to get four Missile Launchers on Devastators? (Heavy flamers and multi-meltas are the point of Land Speeders, they're the weapons that actually benefit significantly from having a fast/Deep Strike-capable platform to carry them closer to the enemy).

...There's no reason to bring dedicated anti-tank. You don't need it...

So...let's take a count...you see, in your meta, no Stormsurges, no Wraithknights, no Land Raiders, no Necron players, no Leman Russes, no Imperial Knights, no Baneblade-chassis vehicles, and no Great Unclean Ones (all things the Bright Lance is dramatically better at dealing with than the scatter laser)?

I don't really use land speeders except to finish out an angel's blade and it just gets a typhoon launcher/heavy bolter and stays as far away from everything as possible. I don't think MM/HF on speeders is a particularly good idea given their fragility. If I have the points, I buy some other auxiliary for Angle's Blade.

Well for Eldar, they're going shoot most of those things with D weapons. Marines are going to shoot them with grav. Everything lighter gets glanced out by the almighty S6/7 spam that Eldar does much better.

I would never use a bright lance just as I would never use a lascannon for the most part.

Are you counting a D weapon as anti-tank? I don't.

Also, a scatterlaser clears more wounds vs Stormsurge than a bright lance. That's one of my problems with it.

Marines... Shooting a GUO... With Grav?

Two things: One, Sterngaurd deal with GUOs, since they have Poison 2+.

Two, it takes 24 Grav Cannons to kill a GUO in a ruins. 24 Grav Cannons. That's 840 points right there, plus another 420 for the Marines holding them, assuming no ablative Marines.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Marines... Shooting a GUO... With Grav?

Two things: One, Sterngaurd deal with GUOs, since they have Poison 2+.

Two, it takes 24 Grav Cannons to kill a GUO in a ruins. 24 Grav Cannons. That's 840 points right there, plus another 420 for the Marines holding them, assuming no ablative Marines.

I meant MOST. I'm certainly not trying to take on any of it with missile launchers or lascannons. It's gonna be melta or grav or ignore them.

I actually haven't used sternguard in a long, long time. I kinda miss those guys.

Martel732 wrote:
All Eldar gun platforms are fast or have battle focus. Now they are all BS 4. Many of them can jink. On these platforms, the scatterlaser is undercosted, since they can maneuver the weapon into the arc they need vs vehicles very easily.

You know how you don't like the assault cannon because rolling 6s for rend isn't reliable enough?

That's what it takes to do anything to AV12 with a scatter laser.

S6 is terrible at killing AV12 vehicles. It's useful against AV10/11, which, it turns out, most significant vehicles have to the rear, not the side. Generally if you've gotten S6 weapons into the AV10/11 arc of a vehicle it's probably either a transport or you've had to sacrifice your range advantage to do it.

...Eldar have many, many advantages and practically no disadvantages....

Pfft. You try playing this book and then tell me that again. No fire points, 115pt minimum cost for a transport, almost entirely T3, horrendously expensive single-Wound models, and we have to deal with people like you telling us the entire Codex is broken and needs massive nerfs across the board/refusing to play against it because you've gotten trounced one two many times by cheesed***s using the five or six units that are actually overpowered.

...Almost every frequently used Eldar unit is undercosted...

So start nerfing the 15-20% of the book that is frequently used instead of the 80-85% that isn't.

Given its mathematical niche in 7th, I would say that the scatterlaser IS undercosted across the board, but not by the same amount in every case as you have made me realize.

The Scatter Laser is undercosted on Windriders, probably undercosted on War Walkers, probably not undercosted on Wave Serpents, not undercosted on Vypers, and definitely not undercosted on the Wraithknight. Restrict Windriders to one gun per three and make the War Walker 75pts base, and it's probably no longer undercosted anywhere.

Conversely, the heavy bolter/assault cannon is almost certainly overcosted in every case due to where you find them.

I would suggest you find a unit with scatterlaser whose current price is appropriate and the same for heavy bolter/assault cannon.

Wraithlord, two scatter lasers. 150pts, T8/3+ armour MC, three Wounds. Slow, moderate damage output with good range, mediocre melee hitting power in a pinch, vulnerable to fairly common heavy weapons.

I will concede that many of the appropriately-priced models with assault cannons I can think of are in 30k (the 40k Baal Predator should be ashamed of itself, its 30k counterpart has three extra assault cannons for the same price, statline, and loadout; and BA Devastator squads are a nightmare at 285pts for ten Space Marines with assault cannons), but here's one with both: the Stormtalon. 110pts, 11-11-11 Hover-capable Flyer, 2 hull points, BS4 with Strafing Run. Twin-linked heavy bolter, twin-linked assault cannon, and Vectored Afterburners for a 3+ Jink while in hover mode. Fast, reasonably durable, easily able to get into back arc with a respectable amount of S5/S6, twin-linked and strafing run for rerollable 2+ to hit ground targets.

Yeah, I don't get Stormtalons. But I'll say that's probably the best assault cannon platform in 40K. And it starts in reserve. Lovely.

Everything about the WK is likely undercosted. It's a 400 pt model. Easy. Or did you mean Wraithlord? The Wraithlord is the old guard of MCs, and is mostly fair. That's also why I haven't seen one in like four years now.

"S6 is terrible at killing AV12 vehicles. "

It's quite good, because you can mass so many shots so cheaply. That's my whole problem with the scatterlaser. It becomes reliable when you have 80 shots. How do you propose a marine list get 80 rending shots? Scatterlasers are frighteningly cost effective vs IKs. Tau and Eldar are leveraging the statistics of huge numbers of shots while the rest of us are praying for "6"s from a handful of shots. That's the game currently.

Martel732 wrote:
...Well for Eldar, they're going shoot most of those things with D weapons...

All right, let me clarify. It may seem hard for you to believe this but occasionally you come across an Eldar player, like me, who uses the 80% of the book that doesn't make it into tournament lists. It would be physically possible for me to load up with D-weapons. I tend not to, because I'm interested in playing 40k, not in beating up small children to stoke my own misshapen ego.

Also, a scatterlaser clears more wounds vs Stormsurge than a bright lance. That's one of my problems with it.

...Wasn't aware they'd given it the same Toughness as and worse armour than a Riptide. Counterintuitive, that is. On the bright side it will be more easily demolished when I finish building my Rapier crews and the phosphex comes a-knocking.

Just FYI, I am all for Scatter lasers (on jetbikes) being 15ppm. They should be more than a Shuricannon, but not twice as much.

On other platforms they are currently costed appropriately because in almost every case they replace an existing Shuricannon, so the cost of that Shuricannon has already been built in. Also, the only other platform in which Scatter lasers can be effectively spammed are War Walkers, which end up paying a good deal more for as many Scats as the bikes do.
1 WW with 2 Scats is 70pts. 2 Scatterbikes are only 54. Making them 15ppm on the bike only would make those same two bikes cost 64pts, which is much closer to the WW.

So I say again, 15pts Scatter lasers ON BIKES is a great idea. 20pts is too far.

And Assault cannons shouldn't be 20pts either. They should be 15pts at most.

-

The nice thing about D weapons is that you usually only need a few. Not always true, as I've seen a Riptide tank TWO wraith cannon WKs for four turns. 3++ on demand can be very frustrating even for Eldar.

"So I say again, 15pts Scatter lasers ON BIKES is a great idea. 20pts is too far.

And Assault cannons shouldn't be 20pts either. They should be 15pts at most. "

That's fair enough. I never thought about making assault cannon cheaper. 96 for a scatpack of 3? Maybe that's enough points lost for three wounds. It still doesn't quite work out in a way, because imperial platforms are all such gak, but it's closer.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, I don't get Stormtalons. But I'll say that's probably the best assault cannon platform in 40K. And it starts in reserve. Lovely.

Everything about the WK is likely undercosted. It's a 400 pt model. Easy. Or did you mean Wraithlord? The Wraithlord is the old guard of MCs, and is mostly fair. That's also why I haven't seen one in like four years now.

"S6 is terrible at killing AV12 vehicles. "

It's quite good, because you can mass so many shots so cheaply. That's my whole problem with the scatterlaser. It becomes reliable when you have 80 shots. How do you propose a marine list get 80 rending shots? Scatterlasers are frighteningly cost effective vs IKs. Tau and Eldar are leveraging the statistics of huge numbers of shots while the rest of us are praying for "6"s from a handful of shots. That's the game currently.

Nope. The game currently is apparently you deciding that you need to be able to play the game like Tau/Eldar instead of playing the game like Space Marines. Throw a melta-pod at an Imperial Knight or actually make use of the rest of your army's weapons ("I don't use lascannons"? Seriously?) and I guarantee you will be able to kill it more effectively.

Praying for 6s from handfuls of shots? You can get S9-10. Eldar can't. You can deliver melta effectively. Eldar can't. You can get 2+ armour, indirect-fire weapons, *bleep*ing Fire Raptors...

Eldar may be a powerful Codex and they may be at the top of the tournament meta but that doesn't mean that the mechanisms by which they interact with the game are the only good way to win and every army should be trying to emulate them. If you play your Codex like itself instead of complaining that you can't play it like the Eldar Codex you might find it's better at the game when playing its own game instead of trying to play someone else's.

Yeah that's one of points is that a lot of stuff isn't a bad when you realize than Imperial stuff can really be overcosted. That's why Gladius doesn't bother be....anymore at least.

Martel732 wrote:
The nice thing about D weapons is that you usually only need a few. Not always true, as I've seen a Riptide tank TWO wraith cannon WKs for four turns. 3++ on demand can be very frustrating even for Eldar...

Yeah. And you've missed the part where I'm trying to play the game instead of pick out the models that let me step all over people.

(I have a Warp Hunter, because it's an awesome model and I've got an eternal fondness for the self-propelled heavy artillery concept (I call it the 'elf-StuG'). If I play it I'm using HoR-style non-Destroyer rules (S6/Armourbane/Fleshbane), because occasionally I might want to play against the same person more than once.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
Yeah that's one of points is that a lot of stuff isn't a bad when you realize than Imperial stuff can really be overcosted. That's why Gladius doesn't bother be....anymore at least.

The problem seems to arise when people take a look at the Eldar and say "They do this thing, why can't we do this thing?" instead of taking a look at the Imperium and saying "Hey, we can do this cool thing the Eldar can't do". Massed melta, massed plasma, indirect-fire, high-power blasts, things with higher than Strength 8, things with a range longer than 36"...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
...because imperial platforms are all such gak...

...You have transports that are cheaper than 100pts, AV higher than 12, and *bleep*ing T5 bikes. Stop whining.

Yes i avoid lascannons as high str low rof weapons generally suck in 7th ed. The issue with melta is how much to bring. It's kuch easier to bring mass s6/7 and hp everything out.

T5 bikes that aren't gak compared to scatbikes. The imperium has a lot of bad units for sure. AV largely doesn't matter because d weapons. What the imperium really has is death stars. But ba don't have any so im boned.

Martel732 wrote:
Yes i avoid lascannons as high str low rof weapons generally suck in 7th ed. The issue with melta is how much to bring. It's kuch easier to bring mass s6/7 and hp everything out.

Great. Kill my 5 Ghost Arks with them.

Martel732 wrote:
Yes i avoid lascannons as high str low rof weapons generally suck in 7th ed. The issue with melta is how much to bring. It's kuch easier to bring mass s6/7 and hp everything out.

It turns out that if you stop looking at the Eldar and grumbling you may find that if you use your higher-powered weapons you have an easier time hull-pointing out vehicles with fewer guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yes i avoid lascannons as high str low rof weapons generally suck in 7th ed. The issue with melta is how much to bring. It's kuch easier to bring mass s6/7 and hp everything out.

Great. Kill my 5 Ghost Arks with them.

This is why I need Bright Lances. And why you need lascannons.

I usually deal with ghost arks by punching them because shooting them is too difficult with ba for the most part. The ghost ark is one of the very few vehicles in 7 th that might be undercosted.

If you do the math, lascannons krak missiles and bright lances are all miserable weapons. They can't double out t5 even which is big trouble vs twc and wraiths.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yes i avoid lascannons as high str low rof weapons generally suck in 7th ed. The issue with melta is how much to bring. It's kuch easier to bring mass s6/7 and hp everything out.

It turns out that if you stop looking at the Eldar and grumbling you may find that if you use your higher-powered weapons you have an easier time hull-pointing out vehicles with fewer guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yes i avoid lascannons as high str low rof weapons generally suck in 7th ed. The issue with melta is how much to bring. It's kuch easier to bring mass s6/7 and hp everything out.

Great. Kill my 5 Ghost Arks with them.

This is why I need Bright Lances. And why you need lascannons.

If you use Ghost Arks, you should know that you can usually elect not to Jink because those weapons simply aren't that risky.

Scatterlasers kill everything from grots to iks. There is a VERY narrow range of units that have to be covered by d weapons. Bright lances shouldn't even be a consideration for eldar.

BA have no d weapons which makes army building much harder. There is almost no chance that a ba list can engage 5 arks at range.

Martel732 wrote:
Scatterlasers kill everything from grots to iks. There is a VERY narrow range of units that have to be covered by d weapons. Bright lances shouldn't even be a consideration for eldar...

And yet they are.

Why? When you have D weapons at your disposal?

Martel732 wrote:
Why? When you have D weapons at your disposal?

Because I'm trying to play the game, not use the godmode cheat to just up and win everything.